Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[bari]

On 1/26/20 10:50 PM, Rafael Skodlar wrote:
>
> LinuxCNC is not only about RT kernel as some threads seem to spin
> around to no end. It seems that Chris understood my original post the
> best. What he pointed out is use of modern technologies that makes it
> possible to create advanced systems we could only dream about years ago.
Having the GUI on one processor and the motion control on another is not
exactly advanced.
>
> Those of you that have a problem with that please do some research on
> industry trends. Then stick heads together and see how much of that
> could be built for DIY crowd that fall in the following categories:
> - hobby,
> - light industrial use,
> - advanced industrial use

Why? DIY is mostly about lowest cost or just for the fun of it.

Your link below is to an article from the last century (1999).

>
> GNU Linux and other open source software made it through those stages
> in early years. In my opinion CNC systems need to be looked at as
> robotic devices instead of exotic things that cannot be improved
> beyond what LinuxCNC and alike (?) are doing at this time.
>
> This page describes pretty much what Chris was saying I believe:
> https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/modern-cnc-control-systems-for-high-speed-machining
>
>
> "The CNC consists of the following main components:
>
>     Operator panel based on industry-compatible PC technology for the
> man/machine interface (MMI)
>     CNC control unit (NCU)
>     Programmable controller (PLC)
>     Drive modules for machine tool axes and spindles (feed drives VSA,
> and main spindle drive HSA)
>     Motors (AC motors and linear drives)
>     Supply and energy recovery unit (S/E unit)
>
> As each drive module, the NCU, the PLC and the operator's panel each
> contain a processor, a modern CNC can also be seen as a multiprocessor
> system."
>
> That makes it clear that it's CRAZY to use PC motherboard for running
> all functions of a CNC system. I see some on this list keep mentioning
> PPort; please get off the dead horse or jump the ship!
>
>
They have been mentioning LPT and FPGA cards connected via PCI/e or
Ethernet as well. I understand that you have an agenda, but newer is
often not better.

> CNC systems also have sections that have higher priority than others.
> Comparing this to supercomputers is just silly. I don't care what any
> individual uses for their work as long as it does not scare the horses.
The point that you missed was the low latency interprocessor communication.

>
> I admire and understand that those who converted huge CNC machines 5+
> years ago want to keep them running 'as is' as long as possible. Some
> machines might be used as fully functional museum artifacts and that's
> fine too. More power to them.
>
> My interest in robotics made me come across interesting but expensive
> solutions in that field. Robots loading and unloading material and
> parts are interacting with CNC machines. How would LinuxCNC work in
> that environment? Watch GUI? Not easily. Give me a break. Leave user
> GUI off the main system!
>
Just talking to the robot controller or actually controlling the robot
motors? How would it handle a rocket launch into space or a chemical
processing plant or 1000 monkeys typing out Shakespeare? Are you talking
about machine control, process control ,  SCADA, or just rambling about
controls?


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 06:52, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> LinuxCNC is not only about RT kernel as some threads seem to spin around
> to no end.

LinuxCNC is a machine controller that runs on Linux. If that isn't
what you want then it makes more sense to use something that is what
you want than to attempt to change LinuxCNC to something else.

> That makes it clear that it's CRAZY to use PC motherboard for running
> all functions of a CNC system.

One might argue that on a multi-core system with one core dedicated to
realtime and the rest to HMI that LinuxCNC fits this model.

>  I see some on this list keep mentioning
> PPort; please get off the dead horse or jump the ship!

The p-port works. Are you suggesting that LinuxCNC should drop the
p-port driver for purely aesthetic reasons?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Jon,

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> Sent: January-26-20 6:14 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)
> 
> On 01/26/2020 08:04 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > I set my BBB aside when the Xylotex cape I had forced normally open limit
> switches.
> The limit switch polarity can be set in software.  In the
> configs file directory, in file
> CRAMPS.hal there is this :

Unfortunately not.  The signal was wired in hardware so the enable on the level 
translation devices was shut off when the switch was closed to ground.  So a NO 
switch would close signalling not only a limit condition but also shutting off 
all the drivers.  

A NC switch would never allow step pulses out.
John Dammeyer

> 
> # Adjust as needed for your switch polarity
> setp bb_gpio.p8.in-08.invert 1
> setp bb_gpio.p8.in-07.invert 1
> setp bb_gpio.p8.in-10.invert 1
> setp bb_gpio.p8.in-09.invert 1
> setp bb_gpio.p9.in-11.invert 1
> setp bb_gpio.p9.in-13.invert 1
> 
> If you change these lines to end in zero, it inverts the
> sensing of the switches.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
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[Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[Rafael Skodlar]

Never expected that saddle on a cow comment would trigger so many 
patties ;-)


LinuxCNC is not only about RT kernel as some threads seem to spin around 
to no end. It seems that Chris understood my original post the best. 
What he pointed out is use of modern technologies that makes it possible 
to create advanced systems we could only dream about years ago.


Those of you that have a problem with that please do some research on 
industry trends. Then stick heads together and see how much of that 
could be built for DIY crowd that fall in the following categories:

- hobby,
- light industrial use,
- advanced industrial use

GNU Linux and other open source software made it through those stages in 
early years. In my opinion CNC systems need to be looked at as robotic 
devices instead of exotic things that cannot be improved beyond what 
LinuxCNC and alike (?) are doing at this time.


This page describes pretty much what Chris was saying I believe:
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/modern-cnc-control-systems-for-high-speed-machining

"The CNC consists of the following main components:

Operator panel based on industry-compatible PC technology for the 
man/machine interface (MMI)

CNC control unit (NCU)
Programmable controller (PLC)
Drive modules for machine tool axes and spindles (feed drives VSA, 
and main spindle drive HSA)

Motors (AC motors and linear drives)
Supply and energy recovery unit (S/E unit)

As each drive module, the NCU, the PLC and the operator's panel each 
contain a processor, a modern CNC can also be seen as a multiprocessor 
system."


That makes it clear that it's CRAZY to use PC motherboard for running 
all functions of a CNC system. I see some on this list keep mentioning 
PPort; please get off the dead horse or jump the ship!


If I could, I would tell this to Ken Olson, DEC CEO, in the early 90's 
when DEC started to deteriorate in the 90s. To fill the gap, there was 
at least one manufacturer making PDP compatible boards that you could 
plug into PC-AT if I remember correctly. They might be still around.


Architectures like PDP-8, PDP-11, and HP-1000 that I supported long ago 
were designed for industrial use: power plants, electric power 
distribution, steel mills, etc. Why is that important to bring up here? 
Computer architecture. PC sucks! It's based on the 80's 8086 and beyond 
that. It was not designed for industrial use in the first place. At 
best, PCs were used as dumb terminals to mainframe size computers.


PDP CPU, instruction set, memory, interrupts architecture, and Unibus is 
where the magic was. Interfaces/controllers were able to interrupt main 
program or OS based on their priority. Critical interfaces in the Unibus 
backplane had higher priority; disk drive controllers or DIO over 
printer or terminal, etc.


What about LinuxCNC? You want to poll parallel port in a loop and watch 
it in fake scope? Count motor steps or it's encoder? Really? Or have 
smart motors or sensors tell exactly the tool position? CNC components 
are getting cheaper so we can afford more and more of them to assemble 
CNC machines or upgrade the existing ones and have LinuxCNC handle all 
of it.


CNC systems also have sections that have higher priority than others. 
Comparing this to supercomputers is just silly. I don't care what any 
individual uses for their work as long as it does not scare the horses.


I admire and understand that those who converted huge CNC machines 5+ 
years ago want to keep them running 'as is' as long as possible. Some 
machines might be used as fully functional museum artifacts and that's 
fine too. More power to them.


My interest in robotics made me come across interesting but expensive 
solutions in that field. Robots loading and unloading material and parts 
are interacting with CNC machines. How would LinuxCNC work in that 
environment? Watch GUI? Not easily. Give me a break. Leave user GUI off 
the main system!


https://www.universal-robots.com/how-tos-and-faqs/how-to/ur-how-tos/remote-control-via-tcpip-16496/
https://www.universal-robots.com/how-tos-and-faqs/how-to/ur-how-tos/real-time-data-exchange-rtde-guide-9/
https://blog.universal-robots.com/how-to-get-robots-to-talk-to-each-other
MODBUS anybody?

No need for GUI all the time:
https://www.zacobria.com/universal_robots_zacobria_remote_control.html
Best (???) CNC would be able to run from the pendant like peripheral, 
X-terminal or some such as John Dammeyer and Chris mentioned in their 
extensive studies on this subject matter.


Thanks to all for extensive research and comments elsewhere. I learned 
allot.


I hope this message does not turn into "nuclear thread explosion" like 
the other one did. I keep some valuable messages for future reference. 
Sorry but top posting, untrimmed messages, and "signatures" that are 20 
times longer than the answer don't fit that category.


Think it this way; trim threads to make them easy to read on pocket size 
devices so we 

Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[Jon Elson]

On 01/26/2020 08:04 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

Other than as an experiment is the BBB worth it?  A big Bridgeport has the room 
for a full sized PC.  A small Sherline maybe is better with something like a 
Beagle.
Also, there are mini-ITX X-86 motherboards that run LinuxCNC 
very well.  You can get 7" cube boxes for these
with fanless power supplies and an SSD, and they are just 
fine. When you assemble the whole works, though,
they are probably TWICE the price of the Beagle and CRAMPS 
boards.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[Jon Elson]

On 01/26/2020 08:04 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I set my BBB aside when the Xylotex cape I had forced normally open limit 
switches.
The limit switch polarity can be set in software.  In the 
configs file directory, in file

CRAMPS.hal there is this :

# Adjust as needed for your switch polarity
setp bb_gpio.p8.in-08.invert 1
setp bb_gpio.p8.in-07.invert 1
setp bb_gpio.p8.in-10.invert 1
setp bb_gpio.p8.in-09.invert 1
setp bb_gpio.p9.in-11.invert 1
setp bb_gpio.p9.in-13.invert 1

If you change these lines to end in zero, it inverts the 
sensing of the switches.


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[John Dammeyer]

I set my BBB aside when the Xylotex cape I had forced normally open limit 
switches.  I was then going to use it with my lathe and got started with the 
quadrature encoder 3D printed holder but things stopped there.  

On the mill the surplus PC c/w parallel port was ultimately cheaper than the 
BBB and the cape.  I still needed a monitor, keyboard and mouse and for the BBB 
also a USB hub to connect those.  

And both the cape DB-25 or the PC DB-25 plugged into my break out board.  So 
since the cabinet for the DC Servo and stepper supply could also hold a PC I 
couldn't see a reason for going on with a system that had slow video and with 
the hub and all was kind of messy for wiring.

And there's the rub.  Other than as an experiment is the BBB worth it?  A big 
Bridgeport has the room for a full sized PC.  A small Sherline maybe is better 
with something like a Beagle.   I don't say this lightly.  I have 3 of them.  
Along with the Xylotex, a replicape for 3D printing , several display capes -- 
the manga screen was a total loss with really bad touch screen to make it 
worthless other than as a display, A CAN bus + RS232/485 cape.  Proto board 
capes.  Some of the display capes step on pins that would be used for the 
encoders.  

So for now my Beagles remain in the various boxes.  Perhaps, before the 
hardware is too old I might create that headless ELS for a mill.  One that 
serves as DRO and power feed control and links via Ethernet to a PC that does 
the actual G-Code translation.But for that an RTOS with the TI development 
environment may be more suitable.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Murphy [mailto:robert.mur...@gmx.com]
> Sent: January-26-20 5:19 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)
> 
> I think with Machinekit they seem to be trying to add too much too soon.
> 
>  From my Boof Head point of view, too many Bells & Whistles to keep the
> "Maker Community" interested and the basics have seemed to be
> neglected.
> TBH I could also be wrong on this point.
> 
> In saying that I did use Machinekit & a BeagleBone Black with a custom
> cape. Tho I did jump to Linuxcnc with a couple Mesa boards as I found
> LCNC Community support to be light years ahead of Machinekit.
> 
> The Machinekit google seems to be active, but no where near as active as
> the various LCNC support channels.
> 
> >> Machinekit has done some very nice things. Where they fall down is
> >> they seem to have no stable release model. It seems that anybody can
> >> change anything and there is no fallback to a stable release.
> >>
> >> I tried to build Machinekit for the RockPro64 and I ran into changes
> >> several months old that had broken the system but were undiscovered.
> >> The �developers� were running on their own systems that compiled and
> >> ran without testing the current branch. But, there was no way I could
> >> find for someone else to check out a system that compiled and ran.
> >>
> >> Eventually I was able to fix the problems and compile, but, it left
> >> me wondering about the whole system.
> >>
> >>
> > Yes, Machinekit seems to have collapsed.� There is a fully workable
> > version from 2-3 years ago, but I can't tell that
> > there is still any work being done on it.� Which is too bad.� On the
> > other hand, I think there is a distro for running
> > LinuxCNC on the Beagle Bone, and maybe that is the best way forward.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[Robert Murphy]

I think with Machinekit they seem to be trying to add too much too soon.

From my Boof Head point of view, too many Bells & Whistles to keep the
"Maker Community" interested and the basics have seemed to be neglected.
TBH I could also be wrong on this point.

In saying that I did use Machinekit & a BeagleBone Black with a custom
cape. Tho I did jump to Linuxcnc with a couple Mesa boards as I found
LCNC Community support to be light years ahead of Machinekit.

The Machinekit google seems to be active, but no where near as active as
the various LCNC support channels.


Machinekit has done some very nice things. Where they fall down is
they seem to have no stable release model. It seems that anybody can
change anything and there is no fallback to a stable release.

I tried to build Machinekit for the RockPro64 and I ran into changes
several months old that had broken the system but were undiscovered.
The “developers” were running on their own systems that compiled and
ran without testing the current branch. But, there was no way I could
find for someone else to check out a system that compiled and ran.

Eventually I was able to fix the problems and compile, but, it left
me wondering about the whole system.



Yes, Machinekit seems to have collapsed.  There is a fully workable
version from 2-3 years ago, but I can't tell that
there is still any work being done on it.  Which is too bad.  On the
other hand, I think there is a distro for running
LinuxCNC on the Beagle Bone, and maybe that is the best way forward.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[Jon Elson]

On 01/26/2020 06:14 PM, Alan Condit wrote:

Jon,

Machinekit has done some very nice things. Where they fall down is they seem to 
have no stable release model. It seems that anybody can change anything and 
there is no fallback to a stable release.

I tried to build Machinekit for the RockPro64 and I ran into changes several 
months old that had broken the system but were undiscovered. The “developers” 
were running on their own systems that compiled and ran without testing the 
current branch. But, there was no way I could find for someone else to check 
out a system that compiled and ran.

Eventually I was able to fix the problems and compile, but, it left me 
wondering about the whole system.


Yes, Machinekit seems to have collapsed.  There is a fully 
workable version from 2-3 years ago, but I can't tell that
there is still any work being done on it.  Which is too 
bad.  On the other hand, I think there is a distro for running
LinuxCNC on the Beagle Bone, and maybe that is the best way 
forward.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (Jon Elson)

[Alan Condit]

Jon,

Machinekit has done some very nice things. Where they fall down is they seem to 
have no stable release model. It seems that anybody can change anything and 
there is no fallback to a stable release.

I tried to build Machinekit for the RockPro64 and I ran into changes several 
months old that had broken the system but were undiscovered. The “developers” 
were running on their own systems that compiled and ran without testing the 
current branch. But, there was no way I could find for someone else to check 
out a system that compiled and ran.

Eventually I was able to fix the problems and compile, but, it left me 
wondering about the whole system.

Alan

> From: Jon Elson 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers
> Date: January 26, 2020 at 9:22:35 AM PST
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> 
> On 01/26/2020 09:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 at 05:34, bari  wrote:
>> 
>>> I think NML is what turns off new developers.
>> Most will never need to touch it. I never have, and I have been pretty
>> deep inside LinuxCNC.
>> 
> NML has some inefficiencies, but does what is needed for single-node systems. 
>  The place it breaks down,
> and why the machinekit group worked to replace it, is that is becomes very 
> resource-intensive when
> you try to share the internal state of LinuxCNC across a network. This is 
> because the system state is
> a single unified chunk of memory.  The Machinekit folks used Zero MQ to make 
> it possible for remote
> processes to only receive the specific data structures they request, vastly 
> reducing network overhead.
> Their goal was to be able to make very complicated workcells with multiple 
> robots passing through shared
> 3D spaces without interference.
> 
> But, for a single 3-5 axis machine running ordinary G-code, NML still works 
> OK.
> 
> Jon


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[Emc-users] Anybody try one of these

[jrmitchellj .]

Has anybody tried one of these game controllers with LinunCNC?
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16826197234?item=N82E16826197234=region_mc=bac-gdr-pc_mmc=bac-gdr-pc-_-dyn-_-pc+gaming+accessories+%28joystick+-+game+pad+-+etc.%29-_-N82E16826197234=CjwKCAiAjrXxBRAPEiwAiM3DQqTPjxhNVOwdxRS4XgPozDD4u75TVlMwl8kmPbMxJRyxWfmq5HUaSRoCZrUQAvD_BwE

A bit on the plasticky side,

--J. Ray Mitchell Jr.
jrmitche...@gmail.com



"Good enough is the enemy of excellence"author unknown

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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> Sent: January-26-20 9:17 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers
> 
> On 01/26/2020 03:10 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > One can buy a CNC mill in Canada like this one for $27K
> > https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/6-265-006-G23
> >
> >
> Have you looked at Acorn CNC ?
> https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html
> 
> It is an amazingly inexpensive commercial controller based
> on the Beagle Bone.  I don't know
> if they have a LinuxCNC/Machinekit port under the hood, but
> I kind of suspect it might be.
> 
> It is now $300, just add your own stepper drives.
> 
> Jon
Haven't look at that site in years.  Really quite nice what they provide as 
turnkey solutions.   The beagle bone can also be developed using the TI IDE and 
not even have Linux on it.  Given that the user interface runs on WIN-10 it's 
not likely to have LinuxCNC under the hood but the Beagle as a hardware 
platform that is fully open source makes for a nice $50 controller board with 
the two PRUs.  They are using the BB Green.  I forget off hand what the 
difference is with the BB Black.

The add on prices for software do look like you might eventually spend well 
over $1000.  OTOH, my Altium PCB design software cost more than that as does 
the Embarcadero RAD studio for Delphi and C++.  And AlibreCAD and AlibreCAM are 
now well over that too.  So the Centroid appears to be a good turnkey solution. 
 Probably better than MACH4 for a windows platform but also more expensive.  

And of course your stuff or Peters also end up costing far less.  And you don't 
have to use WIN-10 which is probably the best part.  The down side is you have 
to use Linux.  Ha ha.

John Dammeyer
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo thread, message queque any problem?

[N]

> > . Do anybody no if there might be any problems sending messages to a 
> > message queue from a Linuxcnc servo thread? Or a Linux real time task?
> 
> It is common for LinuxCNC user-space processes to connect to real-time tasks. 
> I know this happens in HAL ( halui is user-space as an example).  
> Some form of handshake might be needed to confirm data receipt and freshness. 
> 
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/code/code-notes.html
> 
> Shows NML messaging as outside real-time, but communicating with it. 

This made me think again and NML must most certainly be a better choice since 
this used for everything else.


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[Jon Elson]

On 01/26/2020 09:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 at 05:34, bari  wrote:


I think NML is what turns off new developers.

Most will never need to touch it. I never have, and I have been pretty
deep inside LinuxCNC.

NML has some inefficiencies, but does what is needed for 
single-node systems.  The place it breaks down,
and why the machinekit group worked to replace it, is that 
is becomes very resource-intensive when
you try to share the internal state of LinuxCNC across a 
network. This is because the system state is
a single unified chunk of memory.  The Machinekit folks used 
Zero MQ to make it possible for remote
processes to only receive the specific data structures they 
request, vastly reducing network overhead.
Their goal was to be able to make very complicated workcells 
with multiple robots passing through shared

3D spaces without interference.

But, for a single 3-5 axis machine running ordinary G-code, 
NML still works OK.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[Jon Elson]

On 01/26/2020 03:10 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:

One can buy a CNC mill in Canada like this one for $27K
https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/6-265-006-G23



Have you looked at Acorn CNC ?
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html

It is an amazingly inexpensive commercial controller based 
on the Beagle Bone.  I don't know
if they have a LinuxCNC/Machinekit port under the hood, but 
I kind of suspect it might be.


It is now $300, just add your own stepper drives.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 26 January 2020 08:36:03 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 03:33:29 -0500
> > From: Gene Heskett 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers
> >
> > On Sunday 26 January 2020 02:57:28 Andy Pugh wrote:
> >>> On 26 Jan 2020, at 00:56, John Dammeyer 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> . LinuxCNC stops being an true open source solution the moment an
> >>> aftermarket hardware step/servo interface board is required.
> >>
> >> That rather depends on which board it is.
> >> The Mesa FPGA code is open-source, and some people have made their
> >> own Mesa style cards that work with the existing drivers. Also, the
> >> Mesa smart-serial protocol is open source, which allows the STMBL
> >> drive to appear as a smart serial peripheral to a host FPGA card.
> >
> > With all due respect Andy, smart serial is going to have to grow an
> > error correction restart capability. I have had it fail and the only
> > restart is a full, count to ten, powerdown on the whole machine,
> > interface and computer system before it will recover. I've hit this
> > several times.
> >
> > Peter cannot duplicate it but both of my 5i25/7i76D's systems are
> > doing it. Seems to be associated with a 100 millisecond power bump
> > from a substation voltage regulator or something along those lines.
> > Not long enough to reboot any of the computers. I have a shoebox out
> > in the shop building running TLM w/o a ups with a 150 day uptime
> > right now. But it has only a 5i25 & bobs.
>
> With all due repect you seem to be the only one (in about 3500 7I76
> systems) that has this sserial issue. I suspect you may have the 5V
> jumpering wrong or some other generic system issue.

I think so too Peter. But being a CET, I'm in the waiting for the other 
shoe to drop mode. Need more clues than I have ATM.

Somehow, I'm leaning toward some theory that an incomplete powerdown when 
exiting linuxcnc itself is somehow related. Is shutting off the 5v from 
the 5i25 even possible short of moving its jumpers? p2's power is off of 
course as its a normal SainSmart bob and not equipt to take parport 
cable power so it has its own supply in the interface box, but 5i25-p3 
is on, thats been checked. But there could be a cross connection in the 
interface box between its 5 volts for the bob on p2, and the 5 volts to 
the 7i76D. Is there a jumper that might connect the 5 volts from the 12 
volt field power due to a misset jumper in the middle of the 7i76D, and 
thats preventing the reset? Unplugging the power to the interface box 
doesn't fix it.

IDK, but I'll certainly check the next time I have my hands on the 7i76 
docs. Right today I've spent the morning rebuilding my rpi4 stuff and 
posting it. Much smaller rt kernel as I turned off everything in the 
kernel config that not needed for a pi. Contemplating building a tarball 
via the install scripts and just publishing that as it would be 2% of 
the size of a built kernel image,  Rarely "nothing" to do here, even if 
its just bagging up the bed-pan from the Missus.


> >> The situation with EtherCAT is more complicated.
> >
> > And I think proprietary?
> >
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 at 05:34, bari  wrote:

> I think NML is what turns off new developers.

Most will never need to touch it. I never have, and I have been pretty
deep inside LinuxCNC.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:


Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 03:33:29 -0500
From: Gene Heskett 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

On Sunday 26 January 2020 02:57:28 Andy Pugh wrote:


On 26 Jan 2020, at 00:56, John Dammeyer 
wrote:

. LinuxCNC stops being an true open source solution the moment an
aftermarket hardware step/servo interface board is required.


That rather depends on which board it is.
The Mesa FPGA code is open-source, and some people have made their own
Mesa style cards that work with the existing drivers. Also, the Mesa
smart-serial protocol is open source, which allows the STMBL drive to
appear as a smart serial peripheral to a host FPGA card.


With all due respect Andy, smart serial is going to have to grow an error
correction restart capability. I have had it fail and the only restart
is a full, count to ten, powerdown on the whole machine, interface and
computer system before it will recover. I've hit this several times.

Peter cannot duplicate it but both of my 5i25/7i76D's systems are doing
it. Seems to be associated with a 100 millisecond power bump from a
substation voltage regulator or something along those lines. Not long
enough to reboot any of the computers. I have a shoebox out in the shop
building running TLM w/o a ups with a 150 day uptime right now. But it
has only a 5i25 & bobs.



With all due repect you seem to be the only one (in about 3500 7I76 systems) 
that has this sserial issue. I suspect you may have the 5V jumpering wrong or 
some other generic system issue.






The situation with EtherCAT is more complicated.


And I think proprietary?

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



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Re: [Emc-users] Servo thread, message queque any problem?

[Andy Pugh]

> On 25 Jan 2020, at 20:54, Nicklas SB Karlsson  
> wrote:
> 
> . Do anybody no if there might be any problems sending messages to a message 
> queue from a Linuxcnc servo thread? Or a Linux real time task?

It is common for LinuxCNC user-space processes to connect to real-time tasks. I 
know this happens in HAL ( halui is user-space as an example).  
Some form of handshake might be needed to confirm data receipt and freshness. 

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/code/code-notes.html

Shows NML messaging as outside real-time, but communicating with it. 


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[John Dammeyer]

HI Andy,

To be truthful I haven't investigated how open the MESA is.  When it comes to 
hardware I define open source as schematics and firmware.  I don't think PCB 
layouts need to be open.  And unfortunately often open source software is 
written in a way to obfuscate the code.

Probably because I also use Delphi to write Windows applications and it's so 
incredibly easy to create forms with check boxes etc. that command lines and 
complex make files are the hard way to do things.  

But in either case LinuxCNC with a MESA board or MACH with a Smooth Stepper is 
still far less expensive than these:

One can buy a CNC mill in Canada like this one for $27K
https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/6-265-006-G23

or the same one with 2 axis DRO for $10K
https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/6-265-006-N5

So there's about $15K for ball screws, motors, drivers, and the CNC control.  
The amount MESA charges is trivial relative to the overall costs.  

The ACU-RITE control is way more expensive than a LinuxCNC or MACH3 system.  
https://www.machinetoolproducts.com/acu-rite-millpwr-g2-cnc-console-upgrade-for-millpwr-ii-mp2-2003214-or-642650-01
This lists at $4799

But not to get distracted, let's just define a box that can be a 3 or 4 axis 
DRO, show spindle RPM, control spindle speed and direction along with jogging 
each axis either continuously or in increments.   With an MPG to simulate the 
original hand wheels.  No PC.  Just a display that looks remarkably like a DRO 
display.  And a switch for local remote.

Under remote an Ethernet connection LinuxCNC does the trajectory planning and 
motion commands. 

Under local, a group of buttons create a manual mill with power feed on each 
axis but with far more features like soft limits after homing but no automatic 
features other than perhaps peck drilling.  Power feed for tapping with an 
instant reverse at depth.  In some ways equivalent to a G-Code MACRO.

Most servo drives out there don't support smart serial so although an option 
other methods of control are required.

John Dammeyer.

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-20 11:57 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers
> 
> 
> 
> > On 26 Jan 2020, at 00:56, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> >
> > . LinuxCNC stops being an true open source solution the moment an
> aftermarket hardware step/servo interface board is required.
> 
> That rather depends on which board it is.
> The Mesa FPGA code is open-source, and some people have made their own
> Mesa style cards that work with the existing drivers.
> Also, the Mesa smart-serial protocol is open source, which allows the STMBL
> drive to appear as a smart serial peripheral to a host FPGA card.
> 
> The situation with EtherCAT is more complicated.
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] sorting out how to run xz -z

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 26 January 2020 02:59:36 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 26.01.20 02:44, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > trying to sort out how to do this with xz
> >
> > xz -c -k output-file.xz
> >
> > The manpage sucks, and is totally silent on i/o rediirection.
>
> This seems to work:
>
> $ xz -c /etc/issue > /tmp/fred.xz

but thats a single file above, not a directory tree like 
linux-4.19.94-rt39 is:
example:

pi@rpi4:/media/pi/workspace $ xz -c linux-4.19.94-rt39 
>linux-4.19.94-rt39.xz
xz: linux-4.19.94-rt39: Is a directory, skipping

I think I need to tar it first, and I've space to do it, so I'll try that 
as a two step way to do it.

Thanks Erik

> $ file !$
> file /tmp/fred.xz
> /tmp/fred.xz: XZ compressed data
>
> And -c implies -k, AIUI.
>
> Erik
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 26 January 2020 02:57:28 Andy Pugh wrote:

> > On 26 Jan 2020, at 00:56, John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > . LinuxCNC stops being an true open source solution the moment an
> > aftermarket hardware step/servo interface board is required.
>
> That rather depends on which board it is.
> The Mesa FPGA code is open-source, and some people have made their own
> Mesa style cards that work with the existing drivers. Also, the Mesa
> smart-serial protocol is open source, which allows the STMBL drive to
> appear as a smart serial peripheral to a host FPGA card.
>
With all due respect Andy, smart serial is going to have to grow an error 
correction restart capability. I have had it fail and the only restart 
is a full, count to ten, powerdown on the whole machine, interface and 
computer system before it will recover. I've hit this several times. 

Peter cannot duplicate it but both of my 5i25/7i76D's systems are doing 
it. Seems to be associated with a 100 millisecond power bump from a 
substation voltage regulator or something along those lines. Not long 
enough to reboot any of the computers. I have a shoebox out in the shop 
building running TLM w/o a ups with a 150 day uptime right now. But it 
has only a 5i25 & bobs.

> The situation with EtherCAT is more complicated.

And I think proprietary?
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sorting out how to run xz -z

[Erik Christiansen]

On 26.01.20 02:44, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 
> trying to sort out how to do this with xz
> 
> xz -c -k output-file.xz
> 
> The manpage sucks, and is totally silent on i/o rediirection.

This seems to work:

$ xz -c /etc/issue > /tmp/fred.xz
$ file !$
file /tmp/fred.xz
/tmp/fred.xz: XZ compressed data

And -c implies -k, AIUI.

Erik


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