Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 10:29:22 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 3/2/2016 11:39 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  
wrote:
> >> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why
> >> helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load
> >> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
> >
> > It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
> > But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end
> > thrust. You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
> > A timing belt would be even more quiet.
>
> As I recall from my education years ago the reason why helicals are
> quieter is that more than one tooth is engaged at a time.  So there is
> not an abrupt end to one tooth engagement and then the engagement of
> the next.   That's why you almost never see straight cut gears in
> automotive transmissions.
>
> The General Motors 4 speed Muncie "Rock Crusher" manual transmission
> used low angle helical gears which made it almost a spur gear
> transmission.  It was popular for drag cars since it could stand up to
> high torque shock loads. But the transmission made a lot of noise
> due to the low gear angle.
>
> Bewarned:  Car Porn at the link below!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_053IZjH7c

Yep, heard that for 100k+ miles all those years ago.  I kept waiting for 
the tach to be exercised though :)
>
> Dave
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 10:27:35 sam sokolik wrote:

> The z axis on the k&t has the z axis servo mounted on the base of the
> machine.  The power is transferred to the spinning ball nut through a
> linear ball spline and atleast 3 sets of zero backlash gear sets.
> (including right angle set)
>
> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/zaxis/gears1.JPG
>
> The small set of gears has a spacer between that you grind to take out
> the backlash.  This take the backlash out of all the gears in the
> drive train.
>
> (it really is pretty impressive - we have the backlash down to about
> .0002".  ( when we are a bit more energetic - we want to take a bit
> more off the washer))
>
> sam

You are going to do a new mirror on the K&T, for the hubble that doesn't 
need bifocals? :)

> On 3/3/2016 5:21 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 3 March 2016 at 10:00, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
> >> Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> >
> > "Herringbone" isn't a term used in the industry, as far as I know.
> > They tend to call them "double helical"
> >
> > A double helical gear needs one element to have axial float to share
> > the load equally.
> >
> > A double helical rack and pinion with deliberate axial thrust would
> > give a backlash-free drive for a router table.
> >
> > I once saw a large _triple_ helical gearbox at David Brown's (where
> > my dad used to work). That's a really stupid idea as the gears can't
> > float to equalise load.
> > (My dad pointed it out to me with a "They thought that was better in
> > 1930, can you tell me why it's a stupid idea?")
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Dave Cole]

On 3/2/2016 11:39 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>
>> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why
>> helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load
>> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
>>
> It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
> But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end thrust.
> You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
> A timing belt would be even more quiet.
>

As I recall from my education years ago the reason why helicals are 
quieter is that more than one tooth is engaged at a time.  So there is 
not an abrupt end to one tooth engagement and then the engagement of the 
next.   That's why you almost never see straight cut gears in automotive 
transmissions.

The General Motors 4 speed Muncie "Rock Crusher" manual transmission 
used low angle helical gears which made it almost a spur gear 
transmission.  It was popular for drag cars since it could stand up to 
high torque shock loads. But the transmission made a lot of noise 
due to the low gear angle.

Bewarned:  Car Porn at the link below!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_053IZjH7c


Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[sam sokolik]

The z axis on the k&t has the z axis servo mounted on the base of the 
machine.  The power is transferred to the spinning ball nut through a 
linear ball spline and atleast 3 sets of zero backlash gear sets.  
(including right angle set)

http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/zaxis/gears1.JPG

The small set of gears has a spacer between that you grind to take out 
the backlash.  This take the backlash out of all the gears in the drive 
train.

(it really is pretty impressive - we have the backlash down to about 
.0002".  ( when we are a bit more energetic - we want to take a bit more 
off the washer))

sam

On 3/3/2016 5:21 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 3 March 2016 at 10:00, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
>> Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> "Herringbone" isn't a term used in the industry, as far as I know.
> They tend to call them "double helical"
>
> A double helical gear needs one element to have axial float to share
> the load equally.
>
> A double helical rack and pinion with deliberate axial thrust would
> give a backlash-free drive for a router table.
>
> I once saw a large _triple_ helical gearbox at David Brown's (where my
> dad used to work). That's a really stupid idea as the gears can't
> float to equalise load.
> (My dad pointed it out to me with a "They thought that was better in
> 1930, can you tell me why it's a stupid idea?")
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Dave Cole]

Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why 
helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load 
capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
I have a camshaft drive in a hotrod engine that was sold as a noisy gear 
drive and it is.   It sounds like a supercharger.
I need to replace it.  It makes it difficult to hear what else is going 
on in the engine.

Dave


On 3/2/2016 9:52 AM, Tomaz T. wrote:
> I'm working on design and analysis of spur gear transmission with the help of 
> Solidworks. What I need to do is 10:1 transmission ratio, using module 1 size 
> spur gears.
> Here is what I simulated in SW:
> - 12 teeth spur gear generated from SW toolbox- 120 teeth spur gear generated 
> from SW toolbox- 10RPM motor applied to smaller spur gear- 1Nm force applied 
> to bigger spur gear (simulating some constant friction in opposite direction 
> of rotation)
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r13c84ob2ov7dvh/Gearing_1.jpg?dl=0
> After running simulation and plot graph of angular velocities, reading is 
> this (blue line is bigger spur):
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j59pc4cbss3ldhj/Graph_1.jpg?dl=0
>
> Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there 
> something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not 
> suitable?
>
>
>
>
>   
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[andy pugh]

On 3 March 2016 at 10:00, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
> Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Herringbone" isn't a term used in the industry, as far as I know.
They tend to call them "double helical"

A double helical gear needs one element to have axial float to share
the load equally.

A double helical rack and pinion with deliberate axial thrust would
give a backlash-free drive for a router table.

I once saw a large _triple_ helical gearbox at David Brown's (where my
dad used to work). That's a really stupid idea as the gears can't
float to equalise load.
(My dad pointed it out to me with a "They thought that was better in
1930, can you tell me why it's a stupid idea?")

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Gregg Eshelman]

You can pin a pair of opposite angled helical gears together to make 
herringbone gears. That eliminates axial thrust while keeping the benefits of 
helical gears. Machining them in one piece is quite a tricky operation.
Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaA herringbone gear, a 
specific type of double helical gear,[1] is a special type of gear that is a 
side to side (not face to face) combination of two helical gears ... |
|  |
| View on en.wikipedia.org | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |




 
  From: Chris Albertson 
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
 Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 9:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission
   
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:

> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.  I think that is why
> helical gears exist.    However they typically have higher load
> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
>

It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end thrust.
You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
A timing belt would be even more quiet.

   
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Chris Albertson]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:

> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why
> helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load
> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
>

It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end thrust.
You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
A timing belt would be even more quiet.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[andy pugh]

On 2 March 2016 at 21:33, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> Till now I didn't find source for helical gear this small, as I'm limited to 
> 140mm in diameter for largest gear and I need to reach 1:10 ratio in single 
> stage.

http://hpcgears.com/pdf_c33/24.4-24.7.pdf

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Tomaz T .]

I did some more analysis based on your proposals, also removed torque force (on 
bigger spur) in opposite direction with which I tried to simulate some friction 
...
Here is plot with 15 teeth 
spur:https://www.dropbox.com/s/5i8s34qnixajldk/Plot_3.jpg?dl=0
and here is plot from gearing using module 0.5 size (25 teeth : 250 
teeth):https://www.dropbox.com/s/jivrotzn6b1xb0b/Plot_4.jpg?dl=0
I might getaway with 0.5, as it should run much smoother compared to module 1 
sized.
Till now I didn't find source for helical gear this small, as I'm limited to 
140mm in diameter for largest gear and I need to reach 1:10 ratio in single 
stage.




  
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Dave Cole]

Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why 
helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load 
capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
I have a camshaft drive in a hotrod engine that was sold as a noisy gear 
drive and it is.   It sounds like a supercharger.
I need to replace it.  It makes it difficult to hear what else is going 
on in the engine.

Dave


On 3/2/2016 9:52 AM, Tomaz T. wrote:
> I'm working on design and analysis of spur gear transmission with the help of 
> Solidworks. What I need to do is 10:1 transmission ratio, using module 1 size 
> spur gears.
> Here is what I simulated in SW:
> - 12 teeth spur gear generated from SW toolbox- 120 teeth spur gear generated 
> from SW toolbox- 10RPM motor applied to smaller spur gear- 1Nm force applied 
> to bigger spur gear (simulating some constant friction in opposite direction 
> of rotation)
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r13c84ob2ov7dvh/Gearing_1.jpg?dl=0
> After running simulation and plot graph of angular velocities, reading is 
> this (blue line is bigger spur):
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j59pc4cbss3ldhj/Graph_1.jpg?dl=0
>
> Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there 
> something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not 
> suitable?
>
>
>
>
>   
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[andy pugh]

I have a GUI screen for LinuxCNC that embeds as a tab and calculates
various gear parameters. You can enter tooth count and size (in mod,
DP, CP or mm CP and it calculates OD, PCD and span / number of teeth
to measure over for checking cut depth.

It is also rather ugly but can be downloaded here:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Hobbing.


-- 
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If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[kqt4at5v]

a lot of good info here
khkgears.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/gear_guide.pdf

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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[andy pugh]

On 2 March 2016 at 15:52, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> I am just learning about gears myself.  Some one on another forum suggested
> I read "Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design".

I can also recommend
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gears-Gear-Cutting-Workshop-Practice/dp/0852429118
for basic practical advice on making gears at home.

Though he does not describe the hobbing process, assuming that it is
not available to the hobbyist. With CNC this is no longer the case.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Chris Albertson]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:28 AM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 2 March 2016 at 14:52, Tomaz T.  wrote:
> > Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is
> there something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are
> not suitable?
>
> It might well be correct. 12 teeth is quite a small tooth count.
>

Yes, as I wrote, you can't make a true involute 12 tooth gear.  You have to
"cheat".  If you look at a set of involute gear cutters the smallest size
range is 12-13 so you'd want to move up to the larger cutter (14+) for the
best tooth shape.
Your simulation is showing one speed bump per each tooth on the 12-tooh
pinion.  You'd expect this if the pinion is not a true involute shape.

As suggested you might go with mod 0.5 teeth but we have to assume you
selected the larger mod 1.0  teeth because you needed to transmit a certain
amount of torque.  SO maybe go with helical gears (they are stronger
because of the effectively wider teeth) or some other design.

I am just learning about gears myself.  Some one on another forum suggested
I read "Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design".   I found an e-book
version and it covers gear design very well with many worked examples.
Target reader is 1st year engineering student.  This is the "101" ME book.
  Turns out there are no short cuts to design, you have to iterate and try
out many ideas to see which is best.



>
> What happens if you re-model as mod 0.5 and 24 teeth?
>
> You might want to consider a 121:12 ratio, having a "hunting tooth" is
> normally seen as a good idea.
>
> Has Solidworks put in any profile shift?
>
> Clocks use Cycloidal gears, I think that is because they work more
> smoothly at high ratios, though normally in a clock large drives
> small.
>
> --
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
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-- 

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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Chris Albertson]

With involute tooth shape the transmitted velocity should be nearly
perfect.  I think the problem might be the small size of the 12 tooth
gear.  The minimum size gear for mod 1 20 degree should be kept to 13.
With 12 teeth you must loose some of the involute at the bottom on the
tooth.

I think for 10:1 reduction you might think about a compound gear or an
idler. and do in in two steps of 2:1 and 5:1.   Or use at least at a
minimum use a 13:130 gear combo.  12:120 is to small.   Have you got the
centers at exactly half the PD of each gear?


On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:52 AM, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> I'm working on design and analysis of spur gear transmission with the help
> of Solidworks. What I need to do is 10:1 transmission ratio, using module 1
> size spur gears.
> Here is what I simulated in SW:
> - 12 teeth spur gear generated from SW toolbox- 120 teeth spur gear
> generated from SW toolbox- 10RPM motor applied to smaller spur gear- 1Nm
> force applied to bigger spur gear (simulating some constant friction in
> opposite direction of rotation)
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r13c84ob2ov7dvh/Gearing_1.jpg?dl=0
> After running simulation and plot graph of angular velocities, reading is
> this (blue line is bigger spur):
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j59pc4cbss3ldhj/Graph_1.jpg?dl=0
>
> Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there
> something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not
> suitable?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[andy pugh]

On 2 March 2016 at 14:52, Tomaz T.  wrote:
> Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there 
> something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not 
> suitable?

It might well be correct. 12 teeth is quite a small tooth count.

What happens if you re-model as mod 0.5 and 24 teeth?

You might want to consider a 121:12 ratio, having a "hunting tooth" is
normally seen as a good idea.

Has Solidworks put in any profile shift?

Clocks use Cycloidal gears, I think that is because they work more
smoothly at high ratios, though normally in a clock large drives
small.

-- 
atp
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Peter Blodow]

If the blue and red arrows are to signify direction of rotation, there 
is a booboo in the gear drawing, they must be of opposite rotation.
Peter

Am 02.03.2016 15:52, schrieb Tomaz T.:
> I'm working on design and analysis of spur gear transmission with the help of 
> Solidworks. What I need to do is 10:1 transmission ratio, using module 1 size 
> spur gears.
> Here is what I simulated in SW:
> - 12 teeth spur gear generated from SW toolbox- 120 teeth spur gear generated 
> from SW toolbox- 10RPM motor applied to smaller spur gear- 1Nm force applied 
> to bigger spur gear (simulating some constant friction in opposite direction 
> of rotation)
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r13c84ob2ov7dvh/Gearing_1.jpg?dl=0
> After running simulation and plot graph of angular velocities, reading is 
> this (blue line is bigger spur):
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j59pc4cbss3ldhj/Graph_1.jpg?dl=0
>
> Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there 
> something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not 
> suitable?
>
>
>
>
>   
> --
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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[Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Tomaz T .]

I'm working on design and analysis of spur gear transmission with the help of 
Solidworks. What I need to do is 10:1 transmission ratio, using module 1 size 
spur gears.
Here is what I simulated in SW:
- 12 teeth spur gear generated from SW toolbox- 120 teeth spur gear generated 
from SW toolbox- 10RPM motor applied to smaller spur gear- 1Nm force applied to 
bigger spur gear (simulating some constant friction in opposite direction of 
rotation)
Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r13c84ob2ov7dvh/Gearing_1.jpg?dl=0
After running simulation and plot graph of angular velocities, reading is this 
(blue line is bigger spur):
Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j59pc4cbss3ldhj/Graph_1.jpg?dl=0

Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there 
something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not 
suitable? 




  
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