Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
Question is will it ever happen? Instead of whining why not add the facilities you want, it is open source Dave Caroline -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On 16 August 2012 03:42, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote: Do you delete word processor files from the file open menu of the word processor? Do you delete spreadsheets from the file open menu of the spreadsheet program? NO. Yes, actually. Windows allows this, and it is sometimes quite useful. You can also make a copy of a file before opening it, or move it to a new location. Apple don't allow this, as far as I can tell. I am not sure if the normal file-open dialog in Ubuntu allows this, but the one that Axis uses is very minimalist. I do think that there is an argument for using a different file selector in Axis, perhaps one that allows navigation to network drives, for example. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Chris Morley chrisinnana...@hotmail.comwrote: In fact I could understand cases where I would not want the operator to use anything but the cnc screen. Chris M In my world there would almost never be a time when I would want an operator to access anything but the cnc screen. -- dos centavos -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On 8/15/2012 10:35 PM, Chris Radek wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:42:18PM -0400, John Kasunich wrote: Do you delete word processor files from the file open menu of the word processor? Do you delete spreadsheets from the file open menu of the spreadsheet program? NO. In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete files in the file OPEN dialog box. It is an abomination. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete files in the file OPEN dialog box. It is an abomination. Yes, that is correct. I was going to say the same thing. When you show people you can do that oftentimes their jaw drops open.. :-) But really not much different than hitting the start button in Windows XP to shutdown the PC. Yet another well thought out software feature ;-) Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Chris Radek ch...@timeguy.com wrote: In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete files in the file OPEN dialog box. It is an abomination. In fact, this is the standard operating system behavior, not just ms office. I am not sure you can override this behavior in the file open dialog box, although there are many obscure options. I had a bug in one of my windows programs that I didn't feel like fixing. It would fail somehow if I chose to over-write an existing file. So if I wanted to over-write, I would delete the old file from the open file dialog. It's also nice when cleaning up the cruft in a directory when you don't have to open the file manager to delete a few files. I generally prefer to have the freedom to use my computer the way I want, and I find the linux desktop managers to be a little clunky because they limit what you can do. I can see that a programmer should be able to override this behavior in the case of a CNC file where an operator shouldn't be able to mess up a directory. Eric Keller -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On 08/15/2012 09:26 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: I think problem again here. I am not talking about UBUNTU. I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- from icon on EMC2 where one load new program. When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular case---DELETE those file name. Is is clear now what i am talking about? LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2) without Ubuntu, or without the real time kernal, would make your PC just an expensive paperweight. Ubuntu is the operating system on the live CD. There is a method for deleting files in Ubuntu, and this youtube video (and maybe the ones that follow it) should show how it's done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg1fwIaxDOA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
Hi Eventually with the help of other point made clear. Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE /remove of it need to be simple. Like –click on file—DELETE ---result file not there any more. That will be significant help to –“diligent in policing their files”. EMC2 is a diamond (rough or no) but in constant process of cut to make it better and convenient to use for “Final User”. Question is will it ever happen? aram On 2012-08-12 10:32, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2012/8/12 jeremy youngs jcyoung...@gmail.com: I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in LinuxCNC/Axis? andy if you will tell us I think we will all know :) I think he was saying its difficult to remove a file but with a large hard drive why would you want to I guess that the reason for dissatisfaction of original poster is that it is hard to find the one right file, if it is hiding among hundreds of others. So for sake of convenient work it is useful to keep things in order and to remove unnecessary files. Or at least put them in other folder (subfolder or whatever). -- Viesturs If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
I think problem again here. I am not talking about UBUNTU. I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- from icon on EMC2 where one load new program. When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular case---DELETE those file name. Is is clear now what i am talking about? On 2012-08-15 19:05, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE /remove of it need to be simple. Ubuntu already does that. Just like windows. I don't see how it could be made simpler. Stephen -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
Why do you expect EMC to be different than any other program? Do you delete word processor files from the file open menu of the word processor? Do you delete spreadsheets from the file open menu of the spreadsheet program? NO. You delete files using your computer's file manager application (or the command line). G-code files are no different than spreadsheets or word processor documents. They are just files, and you can copy, delete, or rename them using the operating system just like any other file. It would be stupid to duplicate that functionality in EMC, when the operating system does it better, and in a standard and well-known way that doesn't require any extra learning curve. On Wed, Aug 15, 2012, at 09:26 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: I think problem again here. I am not talking about UBUNTU. I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- from icon on EMC2 where one load new program. When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular case---DELETE those file name. Is is clear now what i am talking about? On 2012-08-15 19:05, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE /remove of it need to be simple. Ubuntu already does that. Just like windows. I don't see how it could be made simpler. Stephen -- John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Wednesday 15 August 2012 22:26:54 John Kasunich did opine: Why do you expect EMC to be different than any other program? Do you delete word processor files from the file open menu of the word processor? Do you delete spreadsheets from the file open menu of the spreadsheet program? NO. You delete files using your computer's file manager application (or the command line). G-code files are no different than spreadsheets or word processor documents. They are just files, and you can copy, delete, or rename them using the operating system just like any other file. It would be stupid to duplicate that functionality in EMC, when the operating system does it better, and in a standard and well-known way that doesn't require any extra learning curve. On Wed, Aug 15, 2012, at 09:26 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: I think problem again here. I am not talking about UBUNTU. I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- from icon on EMC2 where one load new program. When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular case---DELETE those file name. Is is clear now what i am talking about? On 2012-08-15 19:05, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE /remove of it need to be simple. Ubuntu already does that. Just like windows. I don't see how it could be made simpler. Stephen I for one cannot grasp why the OP wants to delete the file. Doesn't he want to ever make another copy of that part? What if he had a power failure in the middle of that part? He would be totally screwed and have to redesign it before he could make another. Boggles what mind I have left. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! The Army needs leaders the way a foot needs a big toe. -- Bill Murray -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:42:18PM -0400, John Kasunich wrote: Do you delete word processor files from the file open menu of the word processor? Do you delete spreadsheets from the file open menu of the spreadsheet program? NO. In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete files in the file OPEN dialog box. It is an abomination. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:42:18PM -0400, John Kasunich wrote: Do you delete word processor files from the file open menu of the word processor? Do you delete spreadsheets from the file open menu of the spreadsheet program? NO. In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete files in the file OPEN dialog box. It is an abomination. But, on the other hand, it is very useful. I use these features on a regular basis. I'm not terribly interested if it is an 'abominaton' if it helps me get the job done. N.C. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
I think problem again here. I am not talking about UBUNTU. I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- from icon on EMC2 where one load new program. When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular case---DELETE those file name. Is is clear now what i am talking about? It is clear enough now what you are talking about. While I don't agree so much with having delete available in the load program dialog, I see nothing wrong with a delete file option in the GUI. If I had a production machine that showed the cnc screen full screen, I think I would find it annoying to minimize the screen and use the file manager. In fact I could understand cases where I would not want the operator to use anything but the cnc screen. Chris M -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
Just read documentation and problem solved. ? For the “Final User”? Not the final user you the integrator. You should create whatever you think you need for your interface it is open source so that you can Dave Caroline -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
2012/8/11 a...@conceptmachinery.com: Hi In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out. number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that shows available programs. to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user? How -- click on it --and --DELETE. Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not LINUX software Engineer. I know that You are here on this list for a while now. You have been using Ubuntu and LinuxCNC, so I am really wondering, how hard is it to come up with a thought that it is much easier to delete old and unnecessary files in the moment, when the nc_files directory (or whatever place You store the files in) is open in the file manager program (most probably - nautilus) as You copy the new g-code files in than doing it in some small open file window? Add new files and remove the old ones at once. And in Nautilus You can select numerous files at a time and delete them quicker than selecting them one by one in open file dialog window. LinuxCNC is not guilty for curved hands of its user. Damn, it is so obvious even for 5th grader (which is really far from Linux software engineer) and yet there is somebody to whine about that. Having a bad day and now You need something/somebody to help You get the steam off? Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and mouse? There are more than few guys here on the list that earn their living with building and/or retrofitting cnc machines. I would add myself to that group. And since they hang out on this mailing list, it means that they use [also] LinuxCNC. Here You can see some videos with the welding robot I built. The control cabinet also is shown in some places: http://www.youtube.com/user/viestartss/videos How many commercial CNC machines and machine shops in whole country use EMC2? Any idea? You already have been told that it is not possible to find that out, the only numbers You will get will be some guesstimates. And regarding the question of how to earn money with LinuxCNC, I have seen only 2 things that will lead to payment from client into my bank account: 1) add some additional value to their machine: whenever I get a job for retrofitting existing machine, I make it better than it is. Either the machine becomes more stable and reliable, more convenient to use thus providing time savings to client which translates in increased productivity, or I add some new capabilities which expand the usefulness of the machine. For example, I did a plasma table retrofit. I got that job because client was not able to get 2 different THC sensors to work together with their existing controls. LinuxCNC handles that with ease after I modified thc module, so that was the part of the whole deal that allowed me to get that job and earn something. 2) save the cost for the client: learn LinuxCNC and mechanical things good enough that You can build simple machine faster and cheaper (by knowing better sources of different parts - motors, drives etc) than client would do it by themselves, thus they would get the machine sooner and start producing their things faster thus generating cash flow and that is what people are willing to pay for; Or even better - win Your competition and combine both of these things together (but then the first point is compared against the offer of Your competitors, not their existing machine). That is what I did with the machine I am currently building. I was able to make it faster and designed it in a way that it takes 40% less space in their premises. And I am pretty happy about the competitor's price as I managed to Ok, I have to admit that not everything is going smooth, I already am over the deadline and the machine is not yet ready, but client visited my last week to check on my progress and they already are willing to talk about the next machine they need... The conclusion is that LinuxCNC itself will not earn any money to anyone, it is the effort and time for integration it in existing or yet-to-be-built machine that client is paying for. It is the overall result and total solution provided to client that it is paying for. Creating new configs with all sorts of stuff in HAL, adjusting kinematics modules, customizing HAL components, creating VCP panels - all that is part of my effort to provide customer with machine they need and that is what they are paying for - LinuxCNC adjusted for their particular needs. That takes me as an integrator to post questions here on mailing list, when I do not know, how to handle particular issue, read manuals, search wiki, so that the End user can simply use the machine, not knowing, what exactly is he/she actually working with. Your described situation, when: 1) End user needs to know command-line and be Linux software engineer; 2) End user needs to RTFM just to get
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy hardware by them self generic parts and components. The customers I deal with are typically not looking for parts and pieces. They are busy making things and are looking for a solution. They want a machine updated via a conversion or a new custom machine that runs reliably. They also usually want operator training after the machine is started up. They usually don't care what drives are used or what PCs are used. They want a completed machine, training on the machine, and support when something goes wrong in the future. I don't understand your comment: all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics. While Mesa sells boards for Linuxcnc, so does Pico Systems and others. There are hundreds of companies that sell servo drives and motors. If the customer wants to have a system that looks just like a Fanuc or Siemens system, then chances are that they really want a Fanuc or Siemens system. If they can't afford a Fanuc or Siemens system, then LinuxCNC can be a good alternative in many applications. I had a video up of a 4 head gantry style water jet cutter that I did a couple of years ago, but I think it has been deleted.I used a 19 flat screen industrial monitor in a steel enclosure and surrounded it with typical oil tight industrial pushbuttons for start cycle, stop cycle, and a range of other things. The waterjet is fed automatically via a conveyor. They run that waterjet a lot and it has been extremely reliable. I did a controls retrofit job on a automatic bandsaw at the same plant last week. The bandsaw automatically cuts up large buns of foam into sheets for processing on the waterjet. We used a Micro PLC and touch screen for that job as there was no requirement for any G code style programmable motion. Dave On 8/12/2012 1:46 AM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: About (4) to how make money. 1. sell support ---is OK 2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy hardware by them self generic parts and components. I did that -- all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics. 3. (Red Hat)-? why ? UBUNTU is there 4. Tractor Supply -- try and see . you will put money in will you get money back? Important. About commercial CNC machine with EMC2, need to make video and put on YouTube to potential customer can see it. Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and mouse? Interesting. “Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into machines. None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts automatically. See the documentation if you want to do this too... It's not that hard.” How many commercial CNC machines and machine shops in whole country use EMC2? Any idea? Just read documentation and problem solved. ? For the “Final User”? On 2012-08-11 22:27, Jack Coats wrote: In a similar situation, a friend had a company for several years that 'sold' Asterisk (a Linux based PBX phone system). The users understood how to use and do some user configuration of the software, but my friends company made money by selling consulting services and the hardware (phones and server and other misc equipment). Some customers didn't understand why it cost so much since the software is 'free'. Basically the only way to make money with open source I have found is to 1) sell support (any number of contract and support companies from IBM Dell to the thousands of 1 2 person shops world wide) 2) sell hardware (Digium) 3) sell value added product (Red Hat) 4) use it as a tool (as end-user) to make/sell other stuff (locally Tractor Supply is a RedHat shop that sells farm and garden supplies and equipment through a retail network and online) In parrens above are some samples or $$ makers using that model. Like in (4) above, there are many examples on this list. Making money from OSS is hard. But then again, making $$ anyway always is. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Sunday 12 August 2012 05:51:59 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine: About (4) to how make money. 1. sell support ---is OK 2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy hardware by them self generic parts and components. I did that -- all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics. 3. (Red Hat)-? why ? UBUNTU is there 4. Tractor Supply -- try and see . you will put money in will you get money back? Important. About commercial CNC machine with EMC2, need to make video and put on YouTube to potential customer can see it. already been done, lots of times. Learn to use the search box. Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and mouse? Not personally. I am not competing with those that do unless its right here in my home town. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On 11 August 2012 21:28, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out. number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that shows available programs. I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in LinuxCNC/Axis? I admit to being no sort of fan of the very limited version of a file selector used by Axis (It is rather non-obvious how to get to a mounted network drive (Desktop-(show hidden files)-.hgfs- seems to be the way) but it is surely not that hard to click Places-Home Folder-linuxcnc-nc_files and manage the directory from the normal GUI? -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in LinuxCNC/Axis? andy if you will tell us I think we will all know :) I think he was saying its difficult to remove a file but with a large hard drive why would you want to -- jeremy youngs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
2012/8/12 jeremy youngs jcyoung...@gmail.com: I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in LinuxCNC/Axis? andy if you will tell us I think we will all know :) I think he was saying its difficult to remove a file but with a large hard drive why would you want to I guess that the reason for dissatisfaction of original poster is that it is hard to find the one right file, if it is hiding among hundreds of others. So for sake of convenient work it is useful to keep things in order and to remove unnecessary files. Or at least put them in other folder (subfolder or whatever). -- Viesturs If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
right i think its more of a user and tidieness issue than one of the software, If one is not diligent in policing their files pretty soon chaos erupts, Ive seen this many times on the shop floor. It amounts to form a system never deviate -- jeremy youngs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine: Hi In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out. number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that shows available programs. to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user? How -- click on it --and --DELETE. Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not LINUX software Engineer. This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time to gain trust from final user. Thanks Aram Aram, a point needs made here. And I am going to ramble a bit too to make that point. ramble I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil gas well service rig design fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft maintenance. The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can weld with most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig tig setups plus a smith wrench, all at the ready. The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive shaft balancing rig. These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing with cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'. Neither think they have the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea. If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist, I can't say as I've seen either of them do precise work from drawings. In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with gcode to do any thing the machine itself is capable of. He is NOT a machinist in the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50 copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it, and take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch the next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups to come and get. Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce the best my grandfather could have done by a large margin. And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa, were just as much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we can watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just the human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot to carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from solid oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the batteries in the ice house were completely dead. Yup, grandpa was ahead of his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after dark. In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from Maytag and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it. But it could kick back and even run backwards. One of those kickbacks broke grandmothers ankle in about '39 IIRC. In those days it was pretty serious because that put the wife out of work and running a farm was a full time job for both. About 3 days later grandpa hitched up the team of horses and loaded up a wagonload of shelled corn and took it to town, coming back with a 1/3rd horse electric motor and enough heavy cable to reach the machine, and we had the first electric washing machine in rural Madison County IA (think Bridges, with Eastwood steep) by almost a decade, no one else had one until the REA came down the road with power in '47. I still have the scars on a finger that the wringer on that SOB gave me too. And that is my point, technology moves on, and those who will not move with it, _will_ be left behind. That choice is theirs. I think it was Bob Dillon who sang The times, they are a changin. and he was right. /ramble Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Yow! Am I in Milwaukee? -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
Hi Gene i did not talk about grandpa level of machinist that do manual machining. I am talking about 99% of machinist in CNC machine shop, with 5 to 35 years of experience. Most of them went through many types of CNC machines and many types of CAD CAM. They are a Final User of EMC2. They are who will buy and pay $$$ for EMC2. It is not reasonable to tell them -- that to use EMC2 you also must to learn command line of LINUX it will not happen ever. result of that: 1. good and capable EMC2 used on few commercial machines (not a hobby) in whole country. Very few commercial shop actually use EMC2. 2. people that know EMC2 can not make $$$ money out of knowledge of EMC2. I am interesting to know who is actually can earn money from implementation of EMC2? If machine shop do not ask and pay for EMC2 than from where $$money will come? EMC2 is in ice age. To change situation need to work on putting EMC2, under more familiar shell of machines shops existing controllers. Machinist does not care what actually run CNC machine. If machine is working and there is more familiar push button, jag wheal, toggle switch, light bulb, manual rotational feed rate switch than existing situation will change and it will be fast. That will benefit machine shop and those that will help machine shop to understand and use EMC2. Help to “Final User” to digest EMC2 is an only way to make money out of EMC2. aram On 2012-08-11 19:46, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine: Hi In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out. number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that shows available programs. to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user? How -- click on it --and --DELETE. Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not LINUX software Engineer. This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time to gain trust from final user. Thanks Aram Aram, a point needs made here. And I am going to ramble a bit too to make that point. ramble I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil gas well service rig design fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft maintenance. The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can weld with most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig tig setups plus a smith wrench, all at the ready. The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive shaft balancing rig. These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing with cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'. Neither think they have the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea. If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist, I can't say as I've seen either of them do precise work from drawings. In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with gcode to do any thing the machine itself is capable of. He is NOT a machinist in the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50 copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it, and take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch the next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups to come and get. Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce the best my grandfather could have done by a large margin. And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa, were just as much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we can watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just the human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot to carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from solid oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the batteries in the ice house were completely dead. Yup, grandpa was ahead of his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after dark. In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from Maytag and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it. But it could kick back and even run backwards. One of those kickbacks broke grandmothers ankle in about '39 IIRC. In those days it was pretty serious because that put the wife out of work and running a farm was a full time job for both. About 3 days later grandpa hitched up the team of horses and loaded up a wagonload of shelled corn and took it to town, coming back with a 1/3rd horse electric motor and enough heavy cable to reach the machine, and we had the first electric washing machine in rural Madison County IA (think Bridges, with Eastwood steep) by almost a
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
I am the final user of emc The cnc machinist you speak of. While I can give some validity to the thought of making *LINUXCNC2* (this is what it is called now we called it Emc2 in the last ice age) a little closer to a commercial machine. One can do this with several available guis. User interfaces, jog pendants feed rate over ride etc etc this is a hardware issue all of this will run on linux cnc.As to making you make money selling parts, many people on this list build machines or components professionally. As far as command line and deleting a program once the machine i setup there is no need for a command line and in some instances (searches, bulk delete, and file managment) the command line is far more effective, what version are you running? I just cleaned my home folder by clicking and sending to trash much easier than some of the matsuura machines I have run. lcnc can adapt to v irtually any situation including probing, digitizing and toolsetting I really cant think of what else i would want. Having learned conversational programming, eia,ascii, and these controls fanuc mazak, mazatrol, matuura , fadal monarch, and yang it is the machinists job to know the machine. The last time I checked lcnc is not about money but about a great motion controller, highly adaptive and updating faster and better than the commercial competition. I would say that to criticize here is akin to looking a gift horse in the mouth. It is also about community, good support and tolerance for ot as these people become friends all of these are far better than any support ive recieved from Ill put you on hold for an hour and call you back in 5 min (tomorrow) front desk support. without being harsh I can only see a very small part of your point and just today I was chatting with jt whom was working on tutorials for gui implementation in his spare time for free. So iI think its about more than money and I think we can give the others a run for it anyhow. Thats my .02 if ya dont like it keep the change, if its not enough wait till we are better paid. -- jeremy youngs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into machines. None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts automatically. See the documentation if you want to do this too... It's not that hard. On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:59 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Hi Gene i did not talk about grandpa level of machinist that do manual machining. I am talking about 99% of machinist in CNC machine shop, with 5 to 35 years of experience. Most of them went through many types of CNC machines and many types of CAD CAM. They are a Final User of EMC2. They are who will buy and pay $$$ for EMC2. It is not reasonable to tell them -- that to use EMC2 you also must to learn command line of LINUX it will not happen ever. result of that: 1. good and capable EMC2 used on few commercial machines (not a hobby) in whole country. Very few commercial shop actually use EMC2. 2. people that know EMC2 can not make $$$ money out of knowledge of EMC2. I am interesting to know who is actually can earn money from implementation of EMC2? If machine shop do not ask and pay for EMC2 than from where $$money will come? EMC2 is in ice age. To change situation need to work on putting EMC2, under more familiar shell of machines shops existing controllers. Machinist does not care what actually run CNC machine. If machine is working and there is more familiar push button, jag wheal, toggle switch, light bulb, manual rotational feed rate switch than existing situation will change and it will be fast. That will benefit machine shop and those that will help machine shop to understand and use EMC2. Help to “Final User” to digest EMC2 is an only way to make money out of EMC2. aram On 2012-08-11 19:46, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine: Hi In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out. number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that shows available programs. to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user? How -- click on it --and --DELETE. Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not LINUX software Engineer. This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time to gain trust from final user. Thanks Aram Aram, a point needs made here. And I am going to ramble a bit too to make that point. ramble I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil gas well service rig design fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft maintenance. The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can weld with most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig tig setups plus a smith wrench, all at the ready. The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive shaft balancing rig. These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing with cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'. Neither think they have the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea. If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist, I can't say as I've seen either of them do precise work from drawings. In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with gcode to do any thing the machine itself is capable of. He is NOT a machinist in the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50 copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it, and take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch the next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups to come and get. Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce the best my grandfather could have done by a large margin. And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa, were just as much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we can watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just the human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot to carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from solid oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the batteries in the ice house were completely dead. Yup, grandpa was ahead of his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after dark. In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from Maytag and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it. But it could kick back and even run backwards. One of those kickbacks broke grandmothers ankle in about '39 IIRC. In those days it was pretty serious because that put the wife out of work and running a farm was a full time job for both. About 3 days later grandpa hitched up the team of horses and
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
I presume for non hobby applications at that? :) On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:04 AM, John Murphy j...@wyosip.com wrote: Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into machines. None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts automatically. See the documentation if you want to do this too... It's not that hard. On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:59 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Hi Gene i did not talk about grandpa level of machinist that do manual machining. I am talking about 99% of machinist in CNC machine shop, with 5 to 35 years of experience. Most of them went through many types of CNC machines and many types of CAD CAM. They are a Final User of EMC2. They are who will buy and pay $$$ for EMC2. It is not reasonable to tell them -- that to use EMC2 you also must to learn command line of LINUX it will not happen ever. result of that: 1. good and capable EMC2 used on few commercial machines (not a hobby) in whole country. Very few commercial shop actually use EMC2. 2. people that know EMC2 can not make $$$ money out of knowledge of EMC2. I am interesting to know who is actually can earn money from implementation of EMC2? If machine shop do not ask and pay for EMC2 than from where $$money will come? EMC2 is in ice age. To change situation need to work on putting EMC2, under more familiar shell of machines shops existing controllers. Machinist does not care what actually run CNC machine. If machine is working and there is more familiar push button, jag wheal, toggle switch, light bulb, manual rotational feed rate switch than existing situation will change and it will be fast. That will benefit machine shop and those that will help machine shop to understand and use EMC2. Help to “Final User” to digest EMC2 is an only way to make money out of EMC2. aram On 2012-08-11 19:46, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine: Hi In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out. number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that shows available programs. to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user? How -- click on it --and --DELETE. Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not LINUX software Engineer. This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time to gain trust from final user. Thanks Aram Aram, a point needs made here. And I am going to ramble a bit too to make that point. ramble I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil gas well service rig design fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft maintenance. The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can weld with most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig tig setups plus a smith wrench, all at the ready. The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive shaft balancing rig. These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing with cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'. Neither think they have the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea. If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist, I can't say as I've seen either of them do precise work from drawings. In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with gcode to do any thing the machine itself is capable of. He is NOT a machinist in the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50 copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it, and take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch the next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups to come and get. Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce the best my grandfather could have done by a large margin. And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa, were just as much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we can watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just the human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot to carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from solid oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the batteries in the ice house were completely dead. Yup, grandpa was ahead of his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after dark. In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from Maytag and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it. But it could kick back and even run backwards. One of
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
In a similar situation, a friend had a company for several years that 'sold' Asterisk (a Linux based PBX phone system). The users understood how to use and do some user configuration of the software, but my friends company made money by selling consulting services and the hardware (phones and server and other misc equipment). Some customers didn't understand why it cost so much since the software is 'free'. Basically the only way to make money with open source I have found is to 1) sell support (any number of contract and support companies from IBM Dell to the thousands of 1 2 person shops world wide) 2) sell hardware (Digium) 3) sell value added product (Red Hat) 4) use it as a tool (as end-user) to make/sell other stuff (locally Tractor Supply is a RedHat shop that sells farm and garden supplies and equipment through a retail network and online) In parrens above are some samples or $$ makers using that model. Like in (4) above, there are many examples on this list. Making money from OSS is hard. But then again, making $$ anyway always is. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.
About (4) to how make money. 1. sell support ---is OK 2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy hardware by them self generic parts and components. I did that -- all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics. 3. (Red Hat)-? why ? UBUNTU is there 4. Tractor Supply -- try and see . you will put money in will you get money back? Important. About commercial CNC machine with EMC2, need to make video and put on YouTube to potential customer can see it. Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and mouse? Interesting. “Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into machines. None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts automatically. See the documentation if you want to do this too... It's not that hard.” How many commercial CNC machines and machine shops in whole country use EMC2? Any idea? Just read documentation and problem solved. ? For the “Final User”? On 2012-08-11 22:27, Jack Coats wrote: In a similar situation, a friend had a company for several years that 'sold' Asterisk (a Linux based PBX phone system). The users understood how to use and do some user configuration of the software, but my friends company made money by selling consulting services and the hardware (phones and server and other misc equipment). Some customers didn't understand why it cost so much since the software is 'free'. Basically the only way to make money with open source I have found is to 1) sell support (any number of contract and support companies from IBM Dell to the thousands of 1 2 person shops world wide) 2) sell hardware (Digium) 3) sell value added product (Red Hat) 4) use it as a tool (as end-user) to make/sell other stuff (locally Tractor Supply is a RedHat shop that sells farm and garden supplies and equipment through a retail network and online) In parrens above are some samples or $$ makers using that model. Like in (4) above, there are many examples on this list. Making money from OSS is hard. But then again, making $$ anyway always is. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
