Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 11:57:25 -0500
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday 31 December 2016 11:12:33 Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> > On 12/31/2016 04:34 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > > On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  
> wrote:
> > >> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the
> > >> helium level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader
> > >> watching mechanical gauges could do.
> > >
> > > Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to
> > > measure the level of.
> >
> > Well, there are ways, usually using self-heating thermistors.
> >
> > But, the problem was they sprung a leak in a gaseous helium
> > line, and lost thousands of cubic feet of helium, and
> > nothing sounded the alarm until some other system noticed a
> > shortage.
> >
> > I'm sure there were monitoring systems for this, but for
> > some reason, they didn't work.  Could have been so stupid as
> > the system had the wrong pager number for the guy on call.
> > I just don't know how it happened, and it is ALL
> > scuttlebutt, as they are too embarrassed to write a paper on it.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> You have to grin and chuckle at that bit of CTA at its finest, its just 
> our tax dollars after all.

It is hard to figure everything that can get wrong on beforehand and this could 
also cost money. I hardly ever seen anyone mention how much it cost to figure 
out what could be get wrong beforehand they just look how much it cost to fix 
afterwards and compare against a known problem which is not the case before 
hand.

Usually during prototyping I order circuit bord for around $50 including 
freight or less if there are several different. Even though I checked 
schematics carefully there is always at least a few small problems. Then 
someone claimed maybe $100 could be saved including components if everything 
was correct from beginning. I say it could have if I spent a few more days or 
weeks but $33 or less per day is not really worth it.

Then there are of course more costly problems like problems discovered after 
products have been delivered.

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 11:12:33 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/31/2016 04:34 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the
> >> helium level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader
> >> watching mechanical gauges could do.
> >
> > Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to
> > measure the level of.
>
> Well, there are ways, usually using self-heating thermistors.
>
> But, the problem was they sprung a leak in a gaseous helium
> line, and lost thousands of cubic feet of helium, and
> nothing sounded the alarm until some other system noticed a
> shortage.
>
> I'm sure there were monitoring systems for this, but for
> some reason, they didn't work.  Could have been so stupid as
> the system had the wrong pager number for the guy on call.
> I just don't know how it happened, and it is ALL
> scuttlebutt, as they are too embarrassed to write a paper on it.
>
> Jon
>
You have to grin and chuckle at that bit of CTA at its finest, its just 
our tax dollars after all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/31/2016 04:34 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the helium
>> level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader watching
>> mechanical gauges could do.
> Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to measure
> the level of.
>
Well, there are ways, usually using self-heating thermistors.

But, the problem was they sprung a leak in a gaseous helium 
line, and lost thousands of cubic feet of helium, and 
nothing sounded the alarm until some other system noticed a 
shortage.

I'm sure there were monitoring systems for this, but for 
some reason, they didn't work.  Could have been so stupid as 
the system had the wrong pager number for the guy on call.  
I just don't know how it happened, and it is ALL 
scuttlebutt, as they are too embarrassed to write a paper on it.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 05:34:53 andy pugh wrote:

> On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the
> > helium level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader
> > watching mechanical gauges could do.
>
> Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to measure
> the level of.

I can't argue that point Andy, my own cold knowledge quits with LN2. And 
thats not cold enough by quite a ways to be applied to helium so cold 
its a liquid at ambient pressures. The colder you get it, the stranger 
it becomes.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[andy pugh]

On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the helium
> level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader watching
> mechanical gauges could do.

Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to measure
the level of.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/30/2016 09:07 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the helium
> level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader watching
> mechanical gauges could do.
They have a huge industrial control system, where everything 
can be monitored from anywhere in the lab, from a PC.  I 
don't know the details, but I gather it must have been one 
of those things that some sensor broke and was manually 
bypassed over the weekend or something, and so they lost a 
piece of the monitoring system.  Then, some piping broke, 
and the monitor was not working to sense the failure.  I'm 
PRETTY SURE that they have added some backup sensors and 
redone the alarm system so there won't be a repeat.

I think I might have seen that they've added some personnel 
procedures, so some guy has to go in and eyeball the sensor 
readout box daily to make sure it is still responding.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 December 2016 21:37:11 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/30/2016 11:10 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > And I suppose the real schematic for that was top secret.
>
> No, this is a scientific research lab in the middle of a
> college campus, no secrets.
> But complexity?  YIKES, they have it in spades.
>
> > AIUI, that warmup also damaged some of the magnets.  Too fast. 
> > Since the cooldown had to be staged for the same reason, I assume
> > they started with GN2, then LN2 a week later, etc etc. Then as fast
> > as they could, evacuate the LN2 and switch to gaseous helium,
> > gradually cooling it until they got to liquid. They would I assume
> > do some gas separation with a big Cardox or similar to get rid of
> > the residual nitrogen.  A complex process to be sure.
>
> No, they have the design of supercon magnets down to a
> science, so that they have few problems, nowadays.
> But, you DO have to avoid a quench, where the magnet is
> ramped up to field (and therefore contains enormous magnetic
> energy) when the temperature rises.  So, they had to have a
> crew rush in and ramp the big magnets down before they
> warmed above the critical temperature. They did manage to do
> that.
>
> It did take several weeks to get the whole facility cooled
> down again, after the leak was fixed and they obtained the
> amount of helium to restart.  Enough egg on everybody's face
> to go around.
>
> Jon
>
But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the helium 
level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader watching 
mechanical gauges could do.

When I was in SoCal in 1959-60, one of the things I did for a few months 
was running the recorders that recorded the performance of the Ullage 
pressure regulators in the Atlas rocket, possibly even tested the units 
that gave john G. his first couple of rides.  One of the things we had 
to do at the end of the shift was run the Cardox in the back yard to 
bring the helium recovery tank, a 50,000 cu ft rig that apparently 
leaked pretty badly, bringing it down to just a lb or so over ambient, 
and store the helium in a bank of about 25, 20 cu ft monel bottles, so 
they were, if we had enough to run the next day, about 7300 psi in them.

Even in those bottles, they were down to around 5700 psi the next 
morning.  We had about 3 deliveries a week from one of those trucks, 
which was about $12k a truckload.  Boggled my mind that they really 
didn't shiv a git what it cost as it was a cost+ contract.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/30/2016 11:10 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> And I suppose the real schematic for that was top secret.
No, this is a scientific research lab in the middle of a 
college campus, no secrets.
But complexity?  YIKES, they have it in spades.
>
> AIUI, that warmup also damaged some of the magnets.  Too fast.  Since the
> cooldown had to be staged for the same reason, I assume they started
> with GN2, then LN2 a week later, etc etc. Then as fast as they could,
> evacuate the LN2 and switch to gaseous helium, gradually cooling it
> until they got to liquid. They would I assume do some gas separation
> with a big Cardox or similar to get rid of the residual nitrogen.  A
> complex process to be sure.
>
>
No, they have the design of supercon magnets down to a 
science, so that they have few problems, nowadays.
But, you DO have to avoid a quench, where the magnet is 
ramped up to field (and therefore contains enormous magnetic 
energy) when the temperature rises.  So, they had to have a 
crew rush in and ramp the big magnets down before they 
warmed above the critical temperature. They did manage to do 
that.

It did take several weeks to get the whole facility cooled 
down again, after the leak was fixed and they obtained the 
amount of helium to restart.  Enough egg on everybody's face 
to go around.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 December 2016 11:06:08 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/30/2016 05:56 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Makes me ask what "genius" is running such a place. :) I am amazed
> > at the inefficiency of such places.
>
> They pipe liquid helium all over too cool the
> superconducting magnets to 7 K or below.  EVERYTHING is
> supercon.  They use a commercial Kaeser rotary screw air
> compressor to compress the helium for the liquifier.  It is
> a big unit, I think 130 HP.  They have the most intricate
> monitoring and control system that manages the whole place
> (EPICS).  But, somehow, a sensor failed and caused the
> control system to NOT alarm on a loss of helium, due to a
> leak at the compressor.  They lost the whole inventory of
> helium before other systems started alarming.  They had to
> shut down the whole facility and warm up the magnets, and
> ended up losing something like $10 million of helium.  Well,
> THAT wasn't supposed to happen.
>
> Jon

And I suppose the real schematic for that was top secret. And typical of 
the security agencies, such clearances weren't available to the like of 
me. The best they could do for me, as a Field Checkout Tech while 
putting a titan site in western S.D. together in 1960 was a 
Confidential. I think they work on the principle that if your IQ is 
greater than the eyelet count in you tennie's, you can't be trusted. 
When in the joyous project of ringing out all the wiring in a titan 1, I 
found 2 feedback signals from the first stage motor positioners were 
crossed and on launch, it likely would have screwed itself into the 
ground before clearing the parking lot. I reported the error, they kept 
telling me I was wrong and finally had another crew to recheck it, 
wasted 33 days trying to convince us with the 630's in our hands that 
Martin Marietta does NOT make mistakes, just to get permission to 
interchange 2 wires on adjacent terminals in the connector skirting 
wrapped around the 2nd stage engines.  I can certainly see that in a 
project of that magnitude, they'd want every i dotted with a round dot, 
but at the time it was damned frustrating.

AIUI, that warmup also damaged some of the magnets.  Too fast.  Since the 
cooldown had to be staged for the same reason, I assume they started 
with GN2, then LN2 a week later, etc etc. Then as fast as they could, 
evacuate the LN2 and switch to gaseous helium, gradually cooling it 
until they got to liquid. They would I assume do some gas separation 
with a big Cardox or similar to get rid of the residual nitrogen.  A 
complex process to be sure.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/30/2016 05:56 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> Makes me ask what "genius" is running such a place. :) I am amazed at the
> inefficiency of such places.
>
They pipe liquid helium all over too cool the 
superconducting magnets to 7 K or below.  EVERYTHING is 
supercon.  They use a commercial Kaeser rotary screw air 
compressor to compress the helium for the liquifier.  It is 
a big unit, I think 130 HP.  They have the most intricate 
monitoring and control system that manages the whole place 
(EPICS).  But, somehow, a sensor failed and caused the 
control system to NOT alarm on a loss of helium, due to a 
leak at the compressor.  They lost the whole inventory of 
helium before other systems started alarming.  They had to 
shut down the whole facility and warm up the magnets, and 
ended up losing something like $10 million of helium.  Well, 
THAT wasn't supposed to happen.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/30/2016 03:23 AM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> at lawrence livermore
> my clearance wasnt good enuf but they needed the machine fixed
> the workaround was a bag over my head, stuffed into a jeep ( i think )
> then an armed guard outside the room
> but sheets over most of the machine
> i had to pee but just waited
>
Yeah, some guys I knew worked on Tandem computers, one guy 
went to Scott AFB without his badge.
They wrapped a portable screen around him, and rolled it 
down the hall as he walked inside.  A guy walked ahead 
ringing a small bell, and he could hear people kicking doors 
shut as he rolled past.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 December 2016 01:03:04 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/29/2016 10:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Yup that too. Chances are such places were a union shop & lots of
> > those places are busy protecting the crane operators job.
>
> No, that place is NOT union, and the real crane operator
> thinks it is totally crazy, too, and will tell you so.
> But, "rules are rules..."

Makes me ask what "genius" is running such a place. :) I am amazed at the 
inefficiency of such places.
>
> Now, at Oak Ridge, which is union, many years ago, we almost
> cause a job action by soldering a wire.

Crazy. I personally have never met an "electrician" that could even 
solder a water pipe, let alone make a good solder joint.  Usually, their 
hands don't "fit the tools" and the solder joint is colder than a wedge.

> My boss ended up packing the gear in a box and taking it to
> his hotel room to fix.  Later, we seemed to get lucky and
> the place was always on strike when we went there.  Then, we
> could do anything we wanted without interference.
>
> Jon

Which SHOULD have been the assumption since you probably were called to 
service something there in the first place. :)

Are we off-topic yet? ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[andy pugh]

On 30 December 2016 at 03:17, Jon Elson  wrote:
> So, to use a small chain hoist to lift
> something that is just a bit heavy for two people to lift by
> hand, you have to have crane training,

I dont think that's anything to do with "Union".

Under European HSE laws you wouldn't be able to get too people to lift
the thing even if they could, unless you had done a "Lifting
Assessment" and both people had been on a Lifting Course.

There is a limit to what one person is allowed to lift, too. I recall
one of my metallurgical samples weighed 160kg, which meant that it
needed 8 people to lift it. But it was too small to fit 8 people
around it...

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[TJoseph Powderly]

at lawrence livermore
my clearance wasnt good enuf but they needed the machine fixed
the workaround was a bag over my head, stuffed into a jeep ( i think )
then an armed guard outside the room
but sheets over most of the machine
i had to pee but just waited
:-)

On 12/30/16 13:03, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 12/29/2016 10:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Yup that too. Chances are such places were a union shop & lots of those
>> places are busy protecting the crane operators job.
>>
>>
> No, that place is NOT union, and the real crane operator
> thinks it is totally crazy, too, and will tell you so.
> But, "rules are rules..."
>
>
> Now, at Oak Ridge, which is union, many years ago, we almost
> cause a job action by soldering a wire.
> My boss ended up packing the gear in a box and taking it to
> his hotel room to fix.  Later, we seemed to get lucky and
> the place was always on strike when we went there.  Then, we
> could do anything we wanted without interference.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/29/2016 10:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> Yup that too. Chances are such places were a union shop & lots of those
> places are busy protecting the crane operators job.
>
>
No, that place is NOT union, and the real crane operator 
thinks it is totally crazy, too, and will tell you so.
But, "rules are rules..."


Now, at Oak Ridge, which is union, many years ago, we almost 
cause a job action by soldering a wire.
My boss ended up packing the gear in a box and taking it to 
his hotel room to fix.  Later, we seemed to get lucky and 
the place was always on strike when we went there.  Then, we 
could do anything we wanted without interference.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 22:17:50 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/29/2016 07:30 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Darn it, I meant CTA, for Cover Their A$$ above.
>
> Yeah, lots of that.  At Argonne, they have all the ladders,
> and I mean ALL the ladders, down to one foot tall step
> ladders, chained to the wall!  Only the trained people can
> check out the keys to unlock the ladders.  So, people end up
> climbing on stuff not meant to be climbed on, because they
> can't get an approved person to do it.

I've seen that attitude here and there. Being a git-r-done type back when 
I could, I didn't get too many paychecks from places like that. The most 
asinine was me being a tech, with a 1st phone in his pocket, and 11 
years later a CET, then once in CA in the late 70's, I grabbed a ladder 
and changed a light bulb that I had asked be replaced for 4 or 5 days, 
and of course the shop steward walked in and had a herd of cows. I got 
fired of course. I walked by his cubicle as I headed for the parking 
lot, and thanked him because now I could go get a good job. I had to 
come east of the river, but it was a heck of a lot better.  At a tv 
station, the GM, once the Chief Operators Letter is in the public file, 
may need reminding occasionally of just how little power he has. One of 
the 3 GM's I had in the 18 years I was there, wanted to do some rigged 
payola, which the commission takes a very dim view of. I heard the first 
spot promoing it air, and it was off the shelf in 5 minutes. He got 
educated by reading a couple pages out of 47CFR, part 73.  Didn't make 
him too happy but within the year that war was over, a deputy gave him 
20 minutes to get his stuff in one box and out of the building.  Seems 
he had also been cooking the books.  I mentioned that spat to Russ, who 
owned the facility, when we had some face time in his airplane, that I 
thought he (the GM) was going to fire me over that. Russ said he 
couldn't do it without going thru me. He did call me. I don't fire 
honest people. All I could do was say thank you. And thank you for 
fixing it because it sure needed fixed.

> At MSU/NSCL (National Superconducting Cyclotron Lab) they
> have insane stuff with massively excessive training required
> to do anything.  So, to use a small chain hoist to lift
> something that is just a bit heavy for two people to lift by
> hand, you have to have crane training, and go through all
> the rigamarole required to lift a central air conditioner
> over people's heads.  There's lots more, it gets pretty crazy.

Yup that too. Chances are such places were a union shop & lots of those 
places are busy protecting the crane operators job.

> Jon
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/29/2016 07:30 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> Darn it, I meant CTA, for Cover Their A$$ above.
>
>
Yeah, lots of that.  At Argonne, they have all the ladders, 
and I mean ALL the ladders, down to one foot tall step 
ladders, chained to the wall!  Only the trained people can 
check out the keys to unlock the ladders.  So, people end up 
climbing on stuff not meant to be climbed on, because they 
can't get an approved person to do it.

At MSU/NSCL (National Superconducting Cyclotron Lab) they 
have insane stuff with massively excessive training required 
to do anything.  So, to use a small chain hoist to lift 
something that is just a bit heavy for two people to lift by 
hand, you have to have crane training, and go through all 
the rigamarole required to lift a central air conditioner 
over people's heads.  There's lots more, it gets pretty crazy.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 19:01:33 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 29 December 2016 13:35:14 Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 12/29/2016 11:19 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > And there went the reversed hookup protection. :)
> >
> > No, the diodes are in the power SUPPLY, so the modular
> > supply is running near the designed voltage, but the load
> > gets a lower voltage.
> >
> > >> Jon
> > >
> > > How did you get that mod past the nuclear regulators? I'd had a
> > > couple mods that genuinely improved the pix coming out of a tv
> > > camera, rejected by lesser air force *crats who wouldn't know a
> > > 1n34 diode from a 4 ton transformer. Pain in the a$$ they are.
> > > They do not understand the technology at all, and do their damnest
> > > to freeze the technology at the point the maker boxed it for
> > > shipping.
> >
> > The national labs do have "electrical safety inspectors" who
> > check everything that has a power cord.  Since this unit
> > plugs into a power and cooling frame, they generally don't
> > even look at it. Mostly they ohm out the safety ground to
> > frame resistance and make sure hot and neutral are isolated,
> > and then they are happy and put an approved sticker on it.
> >
> > Jon
>
> Humm, VTA stuff.  But at least we can get something before the next
> 4th of July.
>
Darn it, I meant CTA, for Cover Their A$$ above.

> And, I am now a wee bit schmardter. When I wired that box, I brought
> the line cord in and hooked it up to the 60 volt Z motor supply, then
> continued the bus to the 42 volt supplies for the X motor, and then on
> to this supply.  Putting the filter on this supply helped, but only a
> few percentage points less noise. So I grabbed a couple wire nuts and
> bypassed the 60 volt supplies lines, including the static ground, and
> the pair of supplies I intended to drive the x motor with, spent about
> 3 hours stinking the place up about 3 weeks back, so they were removed
> and I ordered another, whose last day to arrive was today, but I not
> seen hide nor hair of it yet.
>
> So with the big supply out of the picture, it all seems to work.  The
> about 2 volts p-p at the ground terminal of the encoder cable was a
> bit over 400mv, so I was able to add some code to scale the encoder to
> the hal file. Looking at the velocity on the halscope, its about a 20%
> of average with the waveform period matching one full cycle of the
> quadrature. D I've been using a green highliter to mark up the stuff
> for my averager in a printout of the mills hal file, which should
> reduce that periodic noise to 25% of its cuttent value, while
> injecting a phase delay of 2 edges gone by if it was being fed back to
> a PID, which it isn't. So next thought is that the noise from the big
> supply damaged both of the x motors supplies.
>
> So I am going to reroute the power wiring so it hits a terminal board
> and the little supply hooked direct, first, and from that terminal,
> feed the Z PSU thru this filter, and the X thru another filter I'll
> cabbage from another computer psu since I have more dead ones. So all
> three are sourced from the same terminal strip, but each of the bigger
> supplies will have a noise board in its power leads.
>
> Thats the plan right now anyway. I went out an picked up a dead psu,
> opened it up, but the line filters were laid out as an odd shaped
> corner of its PCB, so I clamped onto the heat sink in the mills vice,
> and used an old 1/8" mill to cut it out of the main PCB, driving it
> slowly with the mills keyboard. Now I'll make a box out of dbl-sided
> raw pcb to put both of them in tomorrow and fasten it to the outside
> of the main box and run some wire to the little 5 volter, and extend
> that back to a hot feed from a switch that will turn the pi and the
> monitor off, then run another bit of SJ from the switched duplex that
> will turn off all the higher powered stuff in addition to that 4 foot
> high powered (4000 lumens) daylight led on the bracket about 34" above
> the bed.  And anything else plugged into the duplex above the spindle.
>  Then we'll see how much #@$% noise we have.
>
> Good thing I've got until I fall over to get this done.  The bad part
> is like concrete cracking, the question is not will it, but when,
> because it will. :)
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 13:35:14 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/29/2016 11:19 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > And there went the reversed hookup protection. :)
>
> No, the diodes are in the power SUPPLY, so the modular
> supply is running near the designed voltage, but the load
> gets a lower voltage.
>
> >> Jon
> >
> > How did you get that mod past the nuclear regulators? I'd had a
> > couple mods that genuinely improved the pix coming out of a tv
> > camera, rejected by lesser air force *crats who wouldn't know a 1n34
> > diode from a 4 ton transformer. Pain in the a$$ they are. They do
> > not understand the technology at all, and do their damnest to freeze
> > the technology at the point the maker boxed it for shipping.
>
> The national labs do have "electrical safety inspectors" who
> check everything that has a power cord.  Since this unit
> plugs into a power and cooling frame, they generally don't
> even look at it. Mostly they ohm out the safety ground to
> frame resistance and make sure hot and neutral are isolated,
> and then they are happy and put an approved sticker on it.
>
> Jon
>
Humm, VTA stuff.  But at least we can get something before the next 4th 
of July.

And, I am now a wee bit schmardter. When I wired that box, I brought the 
line cord in and hooked it up to the 60 volt Z motor supply, then 
continued the bus to the 42 volt supplies for the X motor, and then on 
to this supply.  Putting the filter on this supply helped, but only a 
few percentage points less noise. So I grabbed a couple wire nuts and 
bypassed the 60 volt supplies lines, including the static ground, and 
the pair of supplies I intended to drive the x motor with, spent about 3 
hours stinking the place up about 3 weeks back, so they were removed and 
I ordered another, whose last day to arrive was today, but I not seen 
hide nor hair of it yet.

So with the big supply out of the picture, it all seems to work.  The 
about 2 volts p-p at the ground terminal of the encoder cable was a bit 
over 400mv, so I was able to add some code to scale the encoder to the 
hal file. Looking at the velocity on the halscope, its about a 20% of 
average with the waveform period matching one full cycle of the 
quadrature. D I've been using a green highliter to mark up the stuff for 
my averager in a printout of the mills hal file, which should reduce 
that periodic noise to 25% of its cuttent value, while injecting a phase 
delay of 2 edges gone by if it was being fed back to a PID, which it 
isn't. So next thought is that the noise from the big supply damaged 
both of the x motors supplies.

So I am going to reroute the power wiring so it hits a terminal board and 
the little supply hooked direct, first, and from that terminal, feed the 
Z PSU thru this filter, and the X thru another filter I'll cabbage from 
another computer psu since I have more dead ones. So all three are 
sourced from the same terminal strip, but each of the bigger supplies 
will have a noise board in its power leads.

Thats the plan right now anyway. I went out an picked up a dead psu, 
opened it up, but the line filters were laid out as an odd shaped corner 
of its PCB, so I clamped onto the heat sink in the mills vice, and used 
an old 1/8" mill to cut it out of the main PCB, driving it slowly with 
the mills keyboard. Now I'll make a box out of dbl-sided raw pcb to put 
both of them in tomorrow and fasten it to the outside of the main box 
and run some wire to the little 5 volter, and extend that back to a hot 
feed from a switch that will turn the pi and the monitor off, then run 
another bit of SJ from the switched duplex that will turn off all the 
higher powered stuff in addition to that 4 foot high powered (4000 
lumens) daylight led on the bracket about 34" above the bed.  And 
anything else plugged into the duplex above the spindle.  Then we'll see 
how much #@$% noise we have.

Good thing I've got until I fall over to get this done.  The bad part is 
like concrete cracking, the question is not will it, but when, because 
it will. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/29/2016 11:19 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> And there went the reversed hookup protection. :)
>
No, the diodes are in the power SUPPLY, so the modular 
supply is running near the designed voltage, but the load 
gets a lower voltage.
>> Jon
> How did you get that mod past the nuclear regulators? I'd had a couple
> mods that genuinely improved the pix coming out of a tv camera, rejected
> by lesser air force *crats who wouldn't know a 1n34 diode from a 4 ton
> transformer. Pain in the a$$ they are. They do not understand the
> technology at all, and do their damnest to freeze the technology at the
> point the maker boxed it for shipping.
>
The national labs do have "electrical safety inspectors" who 
check everything that has a power cord.  Since this unit 
plugs into a power and cooling frame, they generally don't 
even look at it. Mostly they ohm out the safety ground to 
frame resistance and make sure hot and neutral are isolated, 
and then they are happy and put an approved sticker on it.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 11:39:38 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/29/2016 12:07 AM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> > I'll second the meanwell p/s
> > but the name is just so ...   apologetic :-)
> > mine have sticker 'finely made in taiwan'
>
> There are no rules.

None they pay any attention to.

> I have been making a power supply for 
> some nuclear instrumentation electronics for some years.  I
> used a Cincon power supply (9 V 6.6 A) and hacked it for
> remote sense.  it was quiet, stable (even with my hack) and
> worked fine, but we needed more power.  I got a 10 A supply
> from the same manufacturer, it was built for remote sense.
> It was not stable with a slightly capacitive load above 5 A,
> and was a HUGE EMI source.
> I worked on it for a while, and was not able to fix the
> stability or noise problems.  So, two supplies from the same
> maker, one did what it was supposed to, the other one was
> barely capable of running an incandescent light bulb, and
> certainly no electronics.  I then got another power supply
> from a different maker (sorry, don't remember the brand at
> the moment) 7 V at 8.6 A, hacked it for remote sense, and it
> was quieter that the original, and no stability issues.
>
> This thing is to power a unit 10 to 30 feet away, and
> deliver 6 V DC at the remote load.  The 9 V supplies were
> dropped down with a bridge rectifier (2 diodes in series).
> When I got the 7 V supply, I took out the rectifier drop.

And there went the reversed hookup protection. :)

> Jon

How did you get that mod past the nuclear regulators? I'd had a couple 
mods that genuinely improved the pix coming out of a tv camera, rejected 
by lesser air force *crats who wouldn't know a 1n34 diode from a 4 ton 
transformer. Pain in the a$$ they are. They do not understand the 
technology at all, and do their damnest to freeze the technology at the 
point the maker boxed it for shipping.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 09:29:58 John Thornton wrote:

> Gene, you have a package on the way... a little lagniappe from me.
>
> JT

Thank you John. Have a happy new year.

> On 12/28/2016 7:32 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 28 December 2016 17:42:29 John Thornton wrote:
> >> Hi Gene,
> >>
> >> Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
> >>
> >> JT
> >
> > A linear I'd assume.  Details @url?
> >
> > This one?
> >
> > http://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product=67_id
> >=73
> >
> > Thats not a linear.
> >
> > At that $$, I can afford to "test" it, but your web page doesn't
> > like my FF, so I am stuck at the checkout steps display but its all
> > DIW from here. I'll call tomorrow and pass the card nums.
> >
> >> On 12/28/2016 4:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> Greetings everybody;
> >>>
> >>> Now I am asking a question that I should know the answer to.
> >>>
> >>> It looks like, from the evidence so far, that this 5v 4a little
> >>> switchmode psu should be sent to the fcc and let them ban it from
> >>> ever coming off the boat or airplane on US soil.
> >>>
> >>> Its "static" ground terminal is common to the case, and I have now
> >>> grounded it by way of a couple flat braided ground straps about
> >>> 5/16" inch wide, back to the ground bolt in the bottom of the box.
> >>> Ditto the static ground on the z motors 60 volt psu. House static
> >>> coming in is now also bolted at that stud.  The scope probes
> >>> ground lead is on that stud, the clipon probe is clipped to one of
> >>> the ioconnectors ground pins.
> >>>
> >>> That point is bouncing around 2.5v p-p with the switching activity
> >>> in that psu.  That bolt s/b common to the lathes bed casting thru
> >>> the bolts that mount it on a post bolted to the chip pan, which is
> >>> braced by an angle iron bolted to this post, with the end of the
> >>> angle, about 8" away, bolted solidly to the bed casting at the
> >>> other end.
> >>>
> >>> I purposely did not connect anything in the at667 encoder wireup,
> >>> to the frame anyplace.  If I could find a good, real dirt ground
> >>> for the scope probe, I take bets that the whole latch is bouncing
> >>> at least 25  volts p-p to that real ground.
> >>>
> >>> The only way I can see ATM, is to install some "longitudinal"
> >>> filters, therefore chokeing that noise back into the psu instead
> >>> of giving it something to work against in the form of a solid
> >>> connection to the powerline.  I can source such a filter from Dave
> >>> at the tv station as I know he has a pile of failed monitor pcb's,
> >>> all of which will have good filters we can excavate.
> >>>
> >>> Or should I take the chance that the next one I buy on fleabay,
> >>> would be quiet?  Your call.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >>
> >> ---
> >>---  Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
> >> world's most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org!
> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Chris Albertson]

No, SOME switched mode supplies are noisy and need external filters.
Many of the are very good.   The problem is you never know what you
will get if you buy stuff on eBay.  Even if it says "Genuine Acme
Brand" it may not be.  There are MANY fake products sold.

What I do is buy and test out one and if it works out buy more

Remember the woman in China who was electrocuted by the fake Apple
iPhone charger?It looked real but inside the manufacture did not
have even basic safety design. No isolation from 220 volt mains.   The
name brand part is very good, no noise and safe even after a fault but
cost 10X the price of the fake.

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:09 AM, Nicklas Karlsson
 wrote:
> Switched power electronics are horrible noise sources. Common mode chokes
> in the form ferrite cores usually dampen the noise.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[John Thornton]

Nope

JT


On 12/29/2016 10:34 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 29 December 2016 11:11:56 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> Gene, your package is on the way.
>>
>> JT
> Thanks JT but aren't you missing some numbers?
>> On 12/29/2016 10:06 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Thursday 29 December 2016 06:25:34 andy pugh wrote:
 On 29 December 2016 at 04:49, Danny Miller 
>>> wrote:
> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
 Meanwell is an interesting example of a Chinese brand that has made
 enough of a reputation for being not-awful that others have started
 making fakes.
 (The same has happened with Fotek SSRs, you can no longer tell if
 you are getting a real rip-off of a Crydom or a fake of a rip-off
 device)

 The real Mean Well chassis supplies on the RS web site have
 hexagonal-punched covers. That might be a way to tell:
 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded-switch-mode-power-supplies-s
 mps /1065822/

 Why not try running from a bench PSU or even batteries as an
 experiment?
>>> I don't have a bench supply.  But I did find an expired computer psu
>>> last night, and extracted the small pcb with most of its input
>>> filtering, and when I get my cramping legs to take me out there,
>>> plus input a couple cups of caffeine, I'll put it incircuit for
>>> effects.  But first call JT, he has a 3 amp for little enough.
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned that the real meanwell's covers have hex holes.
>>> This one has round holes.  Sigh.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 11:11:56 John Thornton wrote:

> Gene, your package is on the way.
>
> JT

Thanks JT but aren't you missing some numbers?
>
> On 12/29/2016 10:06 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 29 December 2016 06:25:34 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 29 December 2016 at 04:49, Danny Miller 
> >
> > wrote:
> >>> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
> >>
> >> Meanwell is an interesting example of a Chinese brand that has made
> >> enough of a reputation for being not-awful that others have started
> >> making fakes.
> >> (The same has happened with Fotek SSRs, you can no longer tell if
> >> you are getting a real rip-off of a Crydom or a fake of a rip-off
> >> device)
> >>
> >> The real Mean Well chassis supplies on the RS web site have
> >> hexagonal-punched covers. That might be a way to tell:
> >> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded-switch-mode-power-supplies-s
> >>mps /1065822/
> >>
> >> Why not try running from a bench PSU or even batteries as an
> >> experiment?
> >
> > I don't have a bench supply.  But I did find an expired computer psu
> > last night, and extracted the small pcb with most of its input
> > filtering, and when I get my cramping legs to take me out there,
> > plus input a couple cups of caffeine, I'll put it incircuit for
> > effects.  But first call JT, he has a 3 amp for little enough.
> >
> > Someone mentioned that the real meanwell's covers have hex holes.
> > This one has round holes.  Sigh.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
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> most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 07:04:28 John Thornton wrote:

> Hi Gene,
>
> Did you have trouble before with the web store?
>
> JT

Yes John. Just fixing to call you and do it over the phone. But you 
aren't answering the phone ATM. Did you reset it? my cart is empty just 
now. So I added it again, but when I go to the checkout page, none of 
the 6 steps to do the checkout can be activated. You are not in 
firefoxes stashed files, so I;d assume I haven't registered, but when I 
fill out the form it says I am. Puzzled that is. So its sending me a new 
pw.
>
> On 12/28/2016 7:32 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 28 December 2016 17:42:29 John Thornton wrote:
> >> Hi Gene,
> >>
> >> Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
> >>
> >> JT
> >
> > A linear I'd assume.  Details @url?
> >
> > This one?
> >
> > http://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product=67_id
> >=73
> >
> > Thats not a linear.
> >
> > At that $$, I can afford to "test" it, but your web page doesn't
> > like my FF, so I am stuck at the checkout steps display but its all
> > DIW from here. I'll call tomorrow and pass the card nums.
>
> --
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> most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[John Thornton]

Gene, your package is on the way.

JT


On 12/29/2016 10:06 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 29 December 2016 06:25:34 andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 29 December 2016 at 04:49, Danny Miller 
> wrote:
>>> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
>> Meanwell is an interesting example of a Chinese brand that has made
>> enough of a reputation for being not-awful that others have started
>> making fakes.
>> (The same has happened with Fotek SSRs, you can no longer tell if you
>> are getting a real rip-off of a Crydom or a fake of a rip-off device)
>>
>> The real Mean Well chassis supplies on the RS web site have
>> hexagonal-punched covers. That might be a way to tell:
>> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded-switch-mode-power-supplies-smps
>> /1065822/
>>
>> Why not try running from a bench PSU or even batteries as an
>> experiment?
> I don't have a bench supply.  But I did find an expired computer psu last
> night, and extracted the small pcb with most of its input filtering, and
> when I get my cramping legs to take me out there, plus input a couple
> cups of caffeine, I'll put it incircuit for effects.  But first call JT,
> he has a 3 amp for little enough.
>
> Someone mentioned that the real meanwell's covers have hex holes. This
> one has round holes.  Sigh.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[dannym]

What's this for again?

I have found it preferable to use one of the DC/DC converters off the 24v power 
supply for steppers (or 48v, but that's a different story, that requires an HV 
converter and the ones they sell are all- ALL- fakes, you have to mod it with 
real components).

Danny
 
 Gene Heskett  wrote: 
> On Thursday 29 December 2016 06:25:34 andy pugh wrote:
> 
> > On 29 December 2016 at 04:49, Danny Miller  
> wrote:
> > > They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
> >
> > Meanwell is an interesting example of a Chinese brand that has made
> > enough of a reputation for being not-awful that others have started
> > making fakes.
> > (The same has happened with Fotek SSRs, you can no longer tell if you
> > are getting a real rip-off of a Crydom or a fake of a rip-off device)
> >
> > The real Mean Well chassis supplies on the RS web site have
> > hexagonal-punched covers. That might be a way to tell:
> > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded-switch-mode-power-supplies-smps
> >/1065822/
> >
> > Why not try running from a bench PSU or even batteries as an
> > experiment?
> 
> I don't have a bench supply.  But I did find an expired computer psu last 
> night, and extracted the small pcb with most of its input filtering, and 
> when I get my cramping legs to take me out there, plus input a couple 
> cups of caffeine, I'll put it incircuit for effects.  But first call JT, 
> he has a 3 amp for little enough.
> 
> Someone mentioned that the real meanwell's covers have hex holes. This 
> one has round holes.  Sigh.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 December 2016 06:25:34 andy pugh wrote:

> On 29 December 2016 at 04:49, Danny Miller  
wrote:
> > They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
>
> Meanwell is an interesting example of a Chinese brand that has made
> enough of a reputation for being not-awful that others have started
> making fakes.
> (The same has happened with Fotek SSRs, you can no longer tell if you
> are getting a real rip-off of a Crydom or a fake of a rip-off device)
>
> The real Mean Well chassis supplies on the RS web site have
> hexagonal-punched covers. That might be a way to tell:
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded-switch-mode-power-supplies-smps
>/1065822/
>
> Why not try running from a bench PSU or even batteries as an
> experiment?

I don't have a bench supply.  But I did find an expired computer psu last 
night, and extracted the small pcb with most of its input filtering, and 
when I get my cramping legs to take me out there, plus input a couple 
cups of caffeine, I'll put it incircuit for effects.  But first call JT, 
he has a 3 amp for little enough.

Someone mentioned that the real meanwell's covers have hex holes. This 
one has round holes.  Sigh.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[John Thornton]

Gene, you have a package on the way... a little lagniappe from me.

JT


On 12/28/2016 7:32 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 28 December 2016 17:42:29 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
>>
>> JT
> A linear I'd assume.  Details @url?
>
> This one?
>
> http://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product=67_id=73
>
> Thats not a linear.
>
> At that $$, I can afford to "test" it, but your web page doesn't like my
> FF, so I am stuck at the checkout steps display but its all DIW from
> here. I'll call tomorrow and pass the card nums.
>> On 12/28/2016 4:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>
>>> Now I am asking a question that I should know the answer to.
>>>
>>> It looks like, from the evidence so far, that this 5v 4a little
>>> switchmode psu should be sent to the fcc and let them ban it from
>>> ever coming off the boat or airplane on US soil.
>>>
>>> Its "static" ground terminal is common to the case, and I have now
>>> grounded it by way of a couple flat braided ground straps about
>>> 5/16" inch wide, back to the ground bolt in the bottom of the box.
>>> Ditto the static ground on the z motors 60 volt psu. House static
>>> coming in is now also bolted at that stud.  The scope probes ground
>>> lead is on that stud, the clipon probe is clipped to one of the
>>> ioconnectors ground pins.
>>>
>>> That point is bouncing around 2.5v p-p with the switching activity
>>> in that psu.  That bolt s/b common to the lathes bed casting thru
>>> the bolts that mount it on a post bolted to the chip pan, which is
>>> braced by an angle iron bolted to this post, with the end of the
>>> angle, about 8" away, bolted solidly to the bed casting at the other
>>> end.
>>>
>>> I purposely did not connect anything in the at667 encoder wireup, to
>>> the frame anyplace.  If I could find a good, real dirt ground for
>>> the scope probe, I take bets that the whole latch is bouncing at
>>> least 25  volts p-p to that real ground.
>>>
>>> The only way I can see ATM, is to install some "longitudinal"
>>> filters, therefore chokeing that noise back into the psu instead of
>>> giving it something to work against in the form of a solid
>>> connection to the powerline.  I can source such a filter from Dave
>>> at the tv station as I know he has a pile of failed monitor pcb's,
>>> all of which will have good filters we can excavate.
>>>
>>> Or should I take the chance that the next one I buy on fleabay,
>>> would be quiet?  Your call.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[MC Cason]

Gene,

   Does your Mean Well have "Made in China" wrote on it?

   My 24V - 20A Taiwan labeled Mean Well's were pulled from industrial 
equipment, and work quite well.  The 12V - 20 A Chinese labeled one, 
that I bought last year off of Ebay, lost it's magic smoke after a week 
of intermittent use at 8A.

   Due to their popularity, I'm assuming that there are quite a few fake 
Mean Well PSU's on Ebay.


On 12/28/2016 11:54 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 28 December 2016 23:49:00 Danny Miller wrote:
>
>> I can tell you this with confidence- the reliable, quality brand is
>> "Meanwell".
>>
>> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-MW-5V-3A-15W-AC-DC-Switching-Power-S
>> upply-NES-15-5-/351760561983?hash=item51e690373f:g:NbMAAOSwepJXYhR4
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-MEAN-WELL-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-ES18A05
>> -050-5V-3A-15W-max-100240v-/112229820233?hash=item1a216b2749:g:nssAAOSw
>> A3dYGUnC
>>
>> Meanwell isn't even notably more expensive.
>>
>> Danny
>>
> This noise maker is in fact a Meanwell I bought from MPJA. But if I still
> had a good am radio, I could set up a df loop, I'd bet I could find it
> every 17 kilohertz to at least 75 megahertz! This has ringing components
> that exceed the vertical bandwidth of my Hitachi V-1065, rated at 100
> mhz, but I have actually used it to look at the driver stage output of a
> 50 kw tv transmitter on channel 8, which is nominally 180 megahertz.
>
> Scrounging around in my junk box, I found a computer psu that I
> had "borrowed" a power hexfet out of several years ago, and its line
> input filter was actually on a separate PCB, so it was quite easily
> clipped out of the circuit.  Looks like a 5 pole push pull Chebychev
> design. I'd have to make a box for it if I use it, but I can put it in
> circuit for S's in about 15 minutes tomorrow as a test. Noise coming
> back in on the supposedly grounded and shielded cable to the encoder in
> the lathe, about 8 feed of cable, is 1.95 v p-p on the 7i90 input
> connectors ground pin.
>
> With all that running on 5.09 volts, and feeding a 3.3v circuit on the
> pi, there simply is no way in hell thats not going to putz with the data
> integrity. And its doing a great job of that.
>
> So we'll see what this filter does to it tomorrow.  In the meantime, I'll
> have JT send me one of his for "testing". USPS can probably have it in
> my mailbox by Monday from his place.
>

-- 
MC Cason
Eagle3D - Created by Matthias Weißer
github.com/mcason/Eagle3D



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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[John Thornton]

Hi Gene,

Did you have trouble before with the web store?

JT

On 12/28/2016 7:32 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 28 December 2016 17:42:29 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
>>
>> JT
> A linear I'd assume.  Details @url?
>
> This one?
>
> http://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product=67_id=73
>
> Thats not a linear.
>
> At that $$, I can afford to "test" it, but your web page doesn't like my
> FF, so I am stuck at the checkout steps display but its all DIW from
> here. I'll call tomorrow and pass the card nums.
>>


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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[andy pugh]

On 29 December 2016 at 04:49, Danny Miller  wrote:
> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.

Meanwell is an interesting example of a Chinese brand that has made
enough of a reputation for being not-awful that others have started
making fakes.
(The same has happened with Fotek SSRs, you can no longer tell if you
are getting a real rip-off of a Crydom or a fake of a rip-off device)

The real Mean Well chassis supplies on the RS web site have
hexagonal-punched covers. That might be a way to tell:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded-switch-mode-power-supplies-smps/1065822/

Why not try running from a bench PSU or even batteries as an experiment?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Switched power electronics are horrible noise sources. Common mode chokes
in the form ferrite cores usually dampen the noise.

2016-12-29 7:07 GMT+01:00 TJoseph Powderly :

> I'll second the meanwell p/s
> but the name is just so ...   apologetic :-)
> mine have sticker 'finely made in taiwan'
> tomp
> On 12/29/16 11:49, Danny Miller wrote:
> > I can tell you this with confidence- the reliable, quality brand is
> > "Meanwell".
> >
> > They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-MW-5V-3A-15W-AC-DC-
> Switching-Power-Supply-NES-15-5-/351760561983?hash=item51e690373f:g:
> NbMAAOSwepJXYhR4
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-MEAN-WELL-POWER-
> SUPPLY-ADAPTER-ES18A05-050-5V-3A-15W-max-100240v-/112229820233?hash=
> item1a216b2749:g:nssAAOSwA3dYGUnC
> >
> > Meanwell isn't even notably more expensive.
> >
> > Danny
> >
>
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[TJoseph Powderly]

I'll second the meanwell p/s
but the name is just so ...   apologetic :-)
mine have sticker 'finely made in taiwan'
tomp
On 12/29/16 11:49, Danny Miller wrote:
> I can tell you this with confidence- the reliable, quality brand is
> "Meanwell".
>
> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-MW-5V-3A-15W-AC-DC-Switching-Power-Supply-NES-15-5-/351760561983?hash=item51e690373f:g:NbMAAOSwepJXYhR4
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-MEAN-WELL-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-ES18A05-050-5V-3A-15W-max-100240v-/112229820233?hash=item1a216b2749:g:nssAAOSwA3dYGUnC
>
> Meanwell isn't even notably more expensive.
>
> Danny
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 December 2016 23:49:00 Danny Miller wrote:

> I can tell you this with confidence- the reliable, quality brand is
> "Meanwell".
>
> They all look pretty much the same, they're not.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-MW-5V-3A-15W-AC-DC-Switching-Power-S
>upply-NES-15-5-/351760561983?hash=item51e690373f:g:NbMAAOSwepJXYhR4
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-MEAN-WELL-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-ES18A05
>-050-5V-3A-15W-max-100240v-/112229820233?hash=item1a216b2749:g:nssAAOSw
>A3dYGUnC
>
> Meanwell isn't even notably more expensive.
>
> Danny
>
> On 12/28/2016 4:42 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> > Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
> >
> > JT
> >
> > On 12/28/2016 4:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> Greetings everybody;
> >>
> >> Now I am asking a question that I should know the answer to.
> >>
> >> It looks like, from the evidence so far, that this 5v 4a little
> >> switchmode psu should be sent to the fcc and let them ban it from
> >> ever coming off the boat or airplane on US soil.
> >>
> >> Its "static" ground terminal is common to the case, and I have now
> >> grounded it by way of a couple flat braided ground straps about
> >> 5/16" inch wide, back to the ground bolt in the bottom of the box.
> >> Ditto the static ground on the z motors 60 volt psu. House static
> >> coming in is now also bolted at that stud.  The scope probes ground
> >> lead is on that stud, the clipon probe is clipped to one of the
> >> ioconnectors ground pins.
> >>
> >> That point is bouncing around 2.5v p-p with the switching activity
> >> in that psu.  That bolt s/b common to the lathes bed casting thru
> >> the bolts that mount it on a post bolted to the chip pan, which is
> >> braced by an angle iron bolted to this post, with the end of the
> >> angle, about 8" away, bolted solidly to the bed casting at the
> >> other end.
> >>
> >> I purposely did not connect anything in the at667 encoder wireup,
> >> to the frame anyplace.  If I could find a good, real dirt ground
> >> for the scope probe, I take bets that the whole latch is bouncing
> >> at least 25  volts p-p to that real ground.
> >>
> >> The only way I can see ATM, is to install some "longitudinal"
> >> filters, therefore chokeing that noise back into the psu instead of
> >> giving it something to work against in the form of a solid
> >> connection to the powerline.  I can source such a filter from Dave
> >> at the tv station as I know he has a pile of failed monitor pcb's,
> >> all of which will have good filters we can excavate.
> >>
> >> Or should I take the chance that the next one I buy on fleabay,
> >> would be quiet?  Your call.
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
This noise maker is in fact a Meanwell I bought from MPJA. But if I still 
had a good am radio, I could set up a df loop, I'd bet I could find it 
every 17 kilohertz to at least 75 megahertz! This has ringing components 
that exceed the vertical bandwidth of my Hitachi V-1065, rated at 100 
mhz, but I have actually used it to look at the driver stage output of a 
50 kw tv transmitter on channel 8, which is nominally 180 megahertz.

Scrounging around in my junk box, I found a computer psu that I 
had "borrowed" a power hexfet out of several years ago, and its line 
input filter was actually on a separate PCB, so it was quite easily 
clipped out of the circuit.  Looks like a 5 pole push pull Chebychev 
design. I'd have to make a box for it if I use it, but I can put it in 
circuit for S's in about 15 minutes tomorrow as a test. Noise coming 
back in on the supposedly grounded and shielded cable to the encoder in 
the lathe, about 8 feed of cable, is 1.95 v p-p on the 7i90 input 
connectors ground pin.

With all that running on 5.09 volts, and feeding a 3.3v circuit on the 
pi, there simply is no way in hell thats not going to putz with the data 
integrity. And its doing a great job of that.

So we'll see what this filter does to it tomorrow.  In the meantime, I'll 
have JT send me one of his for "testing". USPS can probably have it in 
my mailbox by Monday from his place.

> > 
> >-- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
> > most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that 

Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Danny Miller]

I can tell you this with confidence- the reliable, quality brand is 
"Meanwell".

They all look pretty much the same, they're not.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-MW-5V-3A-15W-AC-DC-Switching-Power-Supply-NES-15-5-/351760561983?hash=item51e690373f:g:NbMAAOSwepJXYhR4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-MEAN-WELL-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-ES18A05-050-5V-3A-15W-max-100240v-/112229820233?hash=item1a216b2749:g:nssAAOSwA3dYGUnC

Meanwell isn't even notably more expensive.

Danny


On 12/28/2016 4:42 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
>
> JT
>
>
> On 12/28/2016 4:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Greetings everybody;
>>
>> Now I am asking a question that I should know the answer to.
>>
>> It looks like, from the evidence so far, that this 5v 4a little
>> switchmode psu should be sent to the fcc and let them ban it from ever
>> coming off the boat or airplane on US soil.
>>
>> Its "static" ground terminal is common to the case, and I have now
>> grounded it by way of a couple flat braided ground straps about 5/16"
>> inch wide, back to the ground bolt in the bottom of the box. Ditto the
>> static ground on the z motors 60 volt psu. House static coming in is now
>> also bolted at that stud.  The scope probes ground lead is on that stud,
>> the clipon probe is clipped to one of the ioconnectors ground pins.
>>
>> That point is bouncing around 2.5v p-p with the switching activity in
>> that psu.  That bolt s/b common to the lathes bed casting thru the bolts
>> that mount it on a post bolted to the chip pan, which is braced by an
>> angle iron bolted to this post, with the end of the angle, about 8"
>> away, bolted solidly to the bed casting at the other end.
>>
>> I purposely did not connect anything in the at667 encoder wireup, to the
>> frame anyplace.  If I could find a good, real dirt ground for the scope
>> probe, I take bets that the whole latch is bouncing at least 25  volts
>> p-p to that real ground.
>>
>> The only way I can see ATM, is to install some "longitudinal" filters,
>> therefore chokeing that noise back into the psu instead of giving it
>> something to work against in the form of a solid connection to the
>> powerline.  I can source such a filter from Dave at the tv station as I
>> know he has a pile of failed monitor pcb's, all of which will have good
>> filters we can excavate.
>>
>> Or should I take the chance that the next one I buy on fleabay, would be
>> quiet?  Your call.
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 December 2016 17:42:29 John Thornton wrote:

> Hi Gene,
>
> Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?
>
> JT

A linear I'd assume.  Details @url?

This one?

http://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product=67_id=73

Thats not a linear.

At that $$, I can afford to "test" it, but your web page doesn't like my 
FF, so I am stuck at the checkout steps display but its all DIW from 
here. I'll call tomorrow and pass the card nums.
>
> On 12/28/2016 4:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings everybody;
> >
> > Now I am asking a question that I should know the answer to.
> >
> > It looks like, from the evidence so far, that this 5v 4a little
> > switchmode psu should be sent to the fcc and let them ban it from
> > ever coming off the boat or airplane on US soil.
> >
> > Its "static" ground terminal is common to the case, and I have now
> > grounded it by way of a couple flat braided ground straps about
> > 5/16" inch wide, back to the ground bolt in the bottom of the box.
> > Ditto the static ground on the z motors 60 volt psu. House static
> > coming in is now also bolted at that stud.  The scope probes ground
> > lead is on that stud, the clipon probe is clipped to one of the
> > ioconnectors ground pins.
> >
> > That point is bouncing around 2.5v p-p with the switching activity
> > in that psu.  That bolt s/b common to the lathes bed casting thru
> > the bolts that mount it on a post bolted to the chip pan, which is
> > braced by an angle iron bolted to this post, with the end of the
> > angle, about 8" away, bolted solidly to the bed casting at the other
> > end.
> >
> > I purposely did not connect anything in the at667 encoder wireup, to
> > the frame anyplace.  If I could find a good, real dirt ground for
> > the scope probe, I take bets that the whole latch is bouncing at
> > least 25  volts p-p to that real ground.
> >
> > The only way I can see ATM, is to install some "longitudinal"
> > filters, therefore chokeing that noise back into the psu instead of
> > giving it something to work against in the form of a solid
> > connection to the powerline.  I can source such a filter from Dave
> > at the tv station as I know he has a pile of failed monitor pcb's,
> > all of which will have good filters we can excavate.
> >
> > Or should I take the chance that the next one I buy on fleabay,
> > would be quiet?  Your call.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[John Thornton]

Hi Gene,

Want to test one of my 5v 3a regulated power supplies?

JT


On 12/28/2016 4:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Now I am asking a question that I should know the answer to.
>
> It looks like, from the evidence so far, that this 5v 4a little
> switchmode psu should be sent to the fcc and let them ban it from ever
> coming off the boat or airplane on US soil.
>
> Its "static" ground terminal is common to the case, and I have now
> grounded it by way of a couple flat braided ground straps about 5/16"
> inch wide, back to the ground bolt in the bottom of the box. Ditto the
> static ground on the z motors 60 volt psu. House static coming in is now
> also bolted at that stud.  The scope probes ground lead is on that stud,
> the clipon probe is clipped to one of the ioconnectors ground pins.
>
> That point is bouncing around 2.5v p-p with the switching activity in
> that psu.  That bolt s/b common to the lathes bed casting thru the bolts
> that mount it on a post bolted to the chip pan, which is braced by an
> angle iron bolted to this post, with the end of the angle, about 8"
> away, bolted solidly to the bed casting at the other end.
>
> I purposely did not connect anything in the at667 encoder wireup, to the
> frame anyplace.  If I could find a good, real dirt ground for the scope
> probe, I take bets that the whole latch is bouncing at least 25  volts
> p-p to that real ground.
>
> The only way I can see ATM, is to install some "longitudinal" filters,
> therefore chokeing that noise back into the psu instead of giving it
> something to work against in the form of a solid connection to the
> powerline.  I can source such a filter from Dave at the tv station as I
> know he has a pile of failed monitor pcb's, all of which will have good
> filters we can excavate.
>
> Or should I take the chance that the next one I buy on fleabay, would be
> quiet?  Your call.
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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