Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
A verbal description may help. the axis labels are just that labels you may name them anything you want the most usual is as follows XYZ The three linear axes orthogonal (square) to one another ABC The A axis rotates around the X axis The B axis rotates around the Y axis The C axis rotates around the Z axis UVW Secondary XYZ axes On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 4:48 PM, rayj wrote: > Greetings, > > Can anyone point me to a good diagram or description of the 9 axes and > their typical uses? I get x,y,z,and a, but from there I can't find any > clear diagrams. I'm guessing they would be defined 1 way in a CNC > center and differently in controlling the motion of a robotic arm. Just > looking for a place where I can study, instead of spending hours surfing > and looking at fragmented and conflicting info. > > TIA > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, > understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. > And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, > egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men > admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. > -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) > > > -- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
UVW Secondary XYZ axes usually pointing in the direction of the tool...Lets say you have a drill on the end of a robot arm.. You have it in some odd orientation.How do you figure out how to drill the hole? The kinematics can be setup so that uvw are along the tool. Drill a hole? just use W clear as mud? sam On 05/14/2014 05:02 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > A verbal description may help. > > the axis labels are just that labels > you may name them anything you want > the most usual is as follows > > XYZ The three linear axes orthogonal (square) to one another > ABC The A axis rotates around the X axis > The B axis rotates around the Y axis > The C axis rotates around the Z axis > UVW Secondary XYZ axes > > > > > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 4:48 PM, rayj wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> Can anyone point me to a good diagram or description of the 9 axes and >> their typical uses? I get x,y,z,and a, but from there I can't find any >> clear diagrams. I'm guessing they would be defined 1 way in a CNC >> center and differently in controlling the motion of a robotic arm. Just >> looking for a place where I can study, instead of spending hours surfing >> and looking at fragmented and conflicting info. >> >> TIA >> -- >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, >> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men >> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. >> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >> >> >> -- >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. >> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform >> available >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
Thanks, that makes it clear in the machining environment. Is there a similar standard in the control of robotic arms? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 05/14/2014 05:09 PM, sam sokolik wrote: > UVW Secondary XYZ axes > > usually pointing in the direction of the tool...Lets say you have a > drill on the end of a robot arm.. You have it in some odd > orientation.How do you figure out how to drill the hole? The > kinematics can be setup so that uvw are along the tool. Drill a hole? > just use W > > clear as mud? > > sam > > > On 05/14/2014 05:02 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >> A verbal description may help. >> >> the axis labels are just that labels >> you may name them anything you want >> the most usual is as follows >> >> XYZ The three linear axes orthogonal (square) to one another >> ABC The A axis rotates around the X axis >> The B axis rotates around the Y axis >> The C axis rotates around the Z axis >> UVW Secondary XYZ axes >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 4:48 PM, rayj wrote: >> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> Can anyone point me to a good diagram or description of the 9 axes and >>> their typical uses? I get x,y,z,and a, but from there I can't find any >>> clear diagrams. I'm guessing they would be defined 1 way in a CNC >>> center and differently in controlling the motion of a robotic arm. Just >>> looking for a place where I can study, instead of spending hours surfing >>> and looking at fragmented and conflicting info. >>> >>> TIA >>> -- >>> Raymond Julian >>> Kettle River, MN >>> >>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >>> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >>> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, >>> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men >>> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. >>> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE >>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. >>> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform >>> available >>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs >>> ___ >>> Emc-users mailing list >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>> >> >> > > > -- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
On 15 May 2014 00:17, rayj wrote: > Is there a similar standard in the control of robotic arms? It is the same there. (Or it can be). XYZ is end-effector point in space (room coordinates). ABC are end-effector angles UVW (could) be ways to define moves in end-effector space. But that rather depends on if you are moving the robot in cartesian space or joint space. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 05/14/2014 06:43 PM, andy pugh wrote: > On 15 May 2014 00:17, rayj wrote: > >> Is there a similar standard in the control of robotic arms? > > It is the same there. (Or it can be). > > XYZ is end-effector point in space (room coordinates). > ABC are end-effector angles > UVW (could) be ways to define moves in end-effector space. > > But that rather depends on if you are moving the robot in cartesian > space or joint space. > There's what I'm trying to learn. I'd never heard of joint space! Does this stuff fall under the category of "robotics" or "kinematics", or what? -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
Joint space is the physical movement of the machine components. Cartesian space perfect theoretical XYZ space sitting on the machine table It is the desired path of the tool (end effector). With a robot you can move the joints but a single joint movement likely would not give you the tool motion you were trying to achieve. On a 3 axis mill you can have the same effect if the X and Y axes are not square with one another. Let's say you move the X axis only: in joint space only the X axis moves and if the X and Y are not square you would cut a corner that would not be 90 degrees. On the same machine cartesian space X motion would also see the Y move to compensate for the squareness problem. In other words your Cartesian space would be square (as assumed) but your joint space is not square. This compensation would have required you to input correction amounts in the kinematics to describe to the control the out of square condition. Kinematics is the mathematical description of the joint space converted to cartesian space. as Sam said - clear as mud On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:57 PM, rayj wrote: > > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, > understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. > And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, > egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men > admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. > -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) > > On 05/14/2014 06:43 PM, andy pugh wrote: > > On 15 May 2014 00:17, rayj wrote: > > > >> Is there a similar standard in the control of robotic arms? > > > > It is the same there. (Or it can be). > > > > XYZ is end-effector point in space (room coordinates). > > ABC are end-effector angles > > UVW (could) be ways to define moves in end-effector space. > > > > But that rather depends on if you are moving the robot in cartesian > > space or joint space. > > > > There's what I'm trying to learn. I'd never heard of joint space! Does > this stuff fall under the category of "robotics" or "kinematics", or what? > > > -- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm segment under discussion). Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line (motion from the Cartesian point to point Joint space is the physical movement of the machine components. > Cartesian space perfect theoretical XYZ space sitting on the machine table > It is the desired path of the tool (end effector). > With a robot you can move the joints but a single joint movement likely > would not give you the tool motion you were trying to achieve. > On a 3 axis mill you can have the same effect if the X and Y axes are not > square with one another. > Let's say you move the X axis only: > in joint space only the X axis moves and if the X and Y are not square you > would cut a corner that would not be 90 degrees. > On the same machine cartesian space X motion would also see the Y move to > compensate for the squareness problem. > In other words your Cartesian space would be square (as assumed) but your > joint space is not square. > This compensation would have required you to input correction amounts in > the kinematics to describe to the control the out of square condition. > Kinematics is the mathematical description of the joint space converted to > cartesian space. > as Sam said - clear as mud > > > > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:57 PM, rayj wrote: > >> >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, >> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men >> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. >> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >> >> On 05/14/2014 06:43 PM, andy pugh wrote: >>> On 15 May 2014 00:17, rayj wrote: >>> Is there a similar standard in the control of robotic arms? >>> >>> It is the same there. (Or it can be). >>> >>> XYZ is end-effector point in space (room coordinates). >>> ABC are end-effector angles >>> UVW (could) be ways to define moves in end-effector space. >>> >>> But that rather depends on if you are moving the robot in cartesian >>> space or joint space. >>> >> >> There's what I'm trying to learn. I'd never heard of joint space! Does >> this stuff fall under the category of "robotics" or "kinematics", or what? >> >> >> -- >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. >> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform >> available >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > > -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, rayj wrote: > I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for > the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the > motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm > segment under discussion). > The Cartesian and Polar coordinate system are on the same side of the kinematics. The Joint system is on the other side of the kinematics. > Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line > parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line > (motion from the Cartesian point to point calculate (ow!) or use software to generate the commands to be sent to > the (3, I'm guessing)motors? > You program the machine to move in the Cartesian coordinate system using Cartesian and/or Polar coordinates. LinuxCNC reads what you want, calculates where you want to move, sends the move coordinates to the kinematics module, the kinematics module calculates where the motor/slides should be to give you what you want then sends its calculation to the control to move the motor/slide to position. > And back to the original question, are those joints designated by one of > the xyzabcuvw designations, or is there a completely different > designation system. > Axes in LinuxCNC are labeled XYZABCUVW Joints in LinuxCNC are labeled joint0, joint1 ... There are some confusing areas where the labels are mixed but the context should make it clear for you. "crossed fingers" > > Is there a robotics textbook out there that anyone can recommend? I've > found that out of date textbooks can be gotten for very little and are a > wealth of information. > Robotics kinematics is a different animal than the trivial kinematics of the 3 axis mill. But the hard work has been done for most robot configurations. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, > understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. > And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, > egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men > admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. > -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) > > On 05/14/2014 07:40 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > > Joint space is the physical movement of the machine components. > > Cartesian space perfect theoretical XYZ space sitting on the machine > table > > It is the desired path of the tool (end effector). > > With a robot you can move the joints but a single joint movement likely > > would not give you the tool motion you were trying to achieve. > > On a 3 axis mill you can have the same effect if the X and Y axes are not > > square with one another. > > Let's say you move the X axis only: > > in joint space only the X axis moves and if the X and Y are not square > you > > would cut a corner that would not be 90 degrees. > > On the same machine cartesian space X motion would also see the Y move to > > compensate for the squareness problem. > > In other words your Cartesian space would be square (as assumed) but your > > joint space is not square. > > This compensation would have required you to input correction amounts in > > the kinematics to describe to the control the out of square condition. > > Kinematics is the mathematical description of the joint space converted > to > > cartesian space. > > as Sam said - clear as mud > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:57 PM, rayj wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Raymond Julian > >> Kettle River, MN > >> > >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, > >> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. > >> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, > >> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men > >> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. > >> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) > >> > >> On 05/14/2014 06:43 PM, andy pugh wrote: > >>> On 15 May 2014 00:17, rayj wrote: > >>> > Is there a similar standard in the control of robotic arms? > >>> > >>> It is the same there. (Or it can be). > >>> > >>> XYZ is end-effector point in space (room coordinates). > >>> ABC are end-effector angles > >>> UVW (could) be ways to define moves in end-effector space. > >>> > >>> But that rather depends on if you are moving the robot in cartesian > >>> space or joint space. > >>> > >> > >> There's what I'm trying to learn. I'd never heard of joint space! Does > >> this stuff fall under the category of "robotics" or "kinematics", or > what? > >> > >> > >> > -- > >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > >> Get unparalleled scalability from the be
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
On 05/14/2014 09:43 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, rayj wrote: > >> I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for >> the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the >> motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm >> segment under discussion). >> > The Cartesian and Polar coordinate system are on the same side of the > kinematics. > The Joint system is on the other side of the kinematics. > > >> Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line >> parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line >> (motion from the Cartesian point to point > calculate (ow!) or use software to generate the commands to be sent to >> the (3, I'm guessing)motors? >> > You program the machine to move in the Cartesian coordinate system using > Cartesian and/or Polar coordinates. > LinuxCNC reads what you want, calculates where you want to move, sends the > move coordinates to the kinematics module, the kinematics module calculates > where the motor/slides should be to give you what you want then sends its > calculation to the control to move the motor/slide to position. > > >> And back to the original question, are those joints designated by one of >> the xyzabcuvw designations, or is there a completely different >> designation system. >> > Axes in LinuxCNC are labeled XYZABCUVW > Joints in LinuxCNC are labeled joint0, joint1 ... > > There are some confusing areas where the labels are mixed but the context > should make it clear for you. "crossed fingers" > > >> >> Is there a robotics textbook out there that anyone can recommend? I've >> found that out of date textbooks can be gotten for very little and are a >> wealth of information. >> > Robotics kinematics is a different animal than the trivial kinematics of > the 3 axis mill. > But the hard work has been done for most robot configurations. > The robot kinematics is one aspect that I'm interested in. That's one of the reasons I chose to work with LCNC for my machining setup. It has far wider applications. So when I designate a motion in Cartesian space, the kinematics module generates the G code to make the motors move. So the setup for a given system is the programing the kinematics module with the information about what G code, or perhaps a lower level language, that will result in the commanded Cartesian space motion. Is most of this information in the integrators manual, or some other LCNC manual? Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to get the overall view you've explained to me. Assuming I have understood correctly. :>) Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN > >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, >> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men >> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. >> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >> >> On 05/14/2014 07:40 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >>> Joint space is the physical movement of the machine components. >>> Cartesian space perfect theoretical XYZ space sitting on the machine >> table >>> It is the desired path of the tool (end effector). >>> With a robot you can move the joints but a single joint movement likely >>> would not give you the tool motion you were trying to achieve. >>> On a 3 axis mill you can have the same effect if the X and Y axes are not >>> square with one another. >>> Let's say you move the X axis only: >>> in joint space only the X axis moves and if the X and Y are not square >> you >>> would cut a corner that would not be 90 degrees. >>> On the same machine cartesian space X motion would also see the Y move to >>> compensate for the squareness problem. >>> In other words your Cartesian space would be square (as assumed) but your >>> joint space is not square. >>> This compensation would have required you to input correction amounts in >>> the kinematics to describe to the control the out of square condition. >>> Kinematics is the mathematical description of the joint space converted >> to >>> cartesian space. >>> as Sam said - clear as mud >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:57 PM, rayj wrote: >>> Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
G-code *is* how you specify your Cartesian motion. Kinematics converts that to motions of each joint or axis. -- Ralph rayj wrote: On 05/14/2014 09:43 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, rayj wrote: > >> I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for >> the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the >> motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm >> segment under discussion). >> > The Cartesian and Polar coordinate system are on the same side of the > kinematics. > The Joint system is on the other side of the kinematics. > > >> Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line >> parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line >> (motion from the Cartesian point to point > calculate (ow!) or use software to generate the commands to be sent to >> the (3, I'm guessing)motors? >> > You program the machine to move in the Cartesian coordinate system using > Cartesian and/or Polar coordinates. > LinuxCNC reads what you want, calculates where you want to move, sends the > move coordinates to the kinematics module, the kinematics module calculates > where the motor/slides should be to give you what you want then sends its > calculation to the control to move the motor/slide to position. > > >> And back to the original question, are those joints designated by one of >> the xyzabcuvw designations, or is there a completely different >> designation system. >> > Axes in LinuxCNC are labeled XYZABCUVW > Joints in LinuxCNC are labeled joint0, joint1 ... > > There are some confusing areas where the labels are mixed but the context > should make it clear for you. "crossed fingers" > > >> >> Is there a robotics textbook out there that anyone can recommend? I've >> found that out of date textbooks can be gotten for very little and are a >> wealth of information. >> > Robotics kinematics is a different animal than the trivial kinematics of > the 3 axis mill. > But the hard work has been done for most robot configurations. > The robot kinematics is one aspect that I'm interested in. That's one of the reasons I chose to work with LCNC for my machining setup. It has far wider applications. So when I designate a motion in Cartesian space, the kinematics module generates the G code to make the motors move. So the setup for a given system is the programing the kinematics module with the information about what G code, or perhaps a lower level language, that will result in the commanded Cartesian space motion. Is most of this information in the integrators manual, or some other LCNC manual? Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to get the overall view you've explained to me. Assuming I have understood correctly. :>) Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN > >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, >> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men >> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. >> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >> >> On 05/14/2014 07:40 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >>> Joint space is the physical movement of the machine components. >>> Cartesian space perfect theoretical XYZ space sitting on the machine >> table >>> It is the desired path of the tool (end effector). >>> With a robot you can move the joints but a single joint movement likely >>> would not give you the tool motion you were trying to achieve. >>> On a 3 axis mill you can have the same effect if the X and Y axes are not >>> square with one another. >>> Let's say you move the X axis only: >>> in joint space only the X axis moves and if the X and Y are not square >> you >>> would cut a corner that would not be 90 degrees. >>> On the same machine cartesian space X motion would also see the Y move to >>> compensate for the squareness problem. >>> In other words your Cartesian space would be square (as assumed) but your >>> joint space is not square. >>> This compensation would have required you to input correction amounts in >>> the kinematics to describe to the control the out of square condition. >>> Kinematics is the mathematical description of the joint space converted >> to >>> cartesian space. >>> as Sam said - clear as mud >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:57 PM, rayj wrote: >>> Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the qu
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 05/14/2014 10:18 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: > G-code *is* how you specify your Cartesian motion. Kinematics converts that > to motions of each joint or axis. > > -- Ralph > What language is used to program the kinematics module with the information to allow it to interpret the G code? > rayj wrote: > > > On 05/14/2014 09:43 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, rayj wrote: >> >>> I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for >>> the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the >>> motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm >>> segment under discussion). >>> >> The Cartesian and Polar coordinate system are on the same side of the >> kinematics. >> The Joint system is on the other side of the kinematics. >> >> >>> Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line >>> parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line >>> (motion from the Cartesian point to point >> calculate (ow!) or use software to generate the commands to be sent to >>> the (3, I'm guessing)motors? >>> >> You program the machine to move in the Cartesian coordinate system using >> Cartesian and/or Polar coordinates. >> LinuxCNC reads what you want, calculates where you want to move, sends the >> move coordinates to the kinematics module, the kinematics module calculates >> where the motor/slides should be to give you what you want then sends its >> calculation to the control to move the motor/slide to position. >> >> >>> And back to the original question, are those joints designated by one of >>> the xyzabcuvw designations, or is there a completely different >>> designation system. >>> >> Axes in LinuxCNC are labeled XYZABCUVW >> Joints in LinuxCNC are labeled joint0, joint1 ... >> >> There are some confusing areas where the labels are mixed but the context >> should make it clear for you. "crossed fingers" >> >> >>> >>> Is there a robotics textbook out there that anyone can recommend? I've >>> found that out of date textbooks can be gotten for very little and are a >>> wealth of information. >>> >> Robotics kinematics is a different animal than the trivial kinematics of >> the 3 axis mill. >> But the hard work has been done for most robot configurations. >> > The robot kinematics is one aspect that I'm interested in. That's one > of the reasons I chose to work with LCNC for my machining setup. It has > far wider applications. > > So when I designate a motion in Cartesian space, the kinematics module > generates the G code to make the motors move. So the setup for a given > system is the programing the kinematics module with the information > about what G code, or perhaps a lower level language, that will result > in the commanded Cartesian space motion. Is most of this information in > the integrators manual, or some other LCNC manual? > > Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I can't imagine how long > it would have taken me to get the overall view you've explained to me. > Assuming I have understood correctly. :>) > > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > >> >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> Kettle River, MN >>> >>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >>> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >>> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, >>> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men >>> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. >>> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >>> >>> On 05/14/2014 07:40 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: Joint space is the physical movement of the machine components. Cartesian space perfect theoretical XYZ space sitting on the machine >>> table It is the desired path of the tool (end effector). With a robot you can move the joints but a single joint movement likely would not give you the tool motion you were trying to achieve. On a 3 axis mill you can have the same effect if the X and Y axes are not square with one another. Let's say you move the X axis only: in joint space only the X axis moves and if the X and Y are not square >>> you would cut a corner that would not be 90 degrees. On the same machine cartesian space X motion would also see the Y move to compensate for the squareness problem. In other words your Cartesian space would be square (as assumed) but your joint space is not squar
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
Ray, I think it would be best for you to spend some time reading through LinuxCNC documentation. There are quite a few excellent manuals on the entire set of software, from G-code interpreter all the way to axis movement. Here are some suggested starting points: kinematics: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/motion/kinematics.html block diagram of the system: page 14 of http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/pdf/LinuxCNC_Developer_Manual.pdf -- Ralph From: rayj [raymo...@frontiernet.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:38 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] axes definition Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 05/14/2014 10:18 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: > G-code *is* how you specify your Cartesian motion. Kinematics converts that > to motions of each joint or axis. > > -- Ralph > What language is used to program the kinematics module with the information to allow it to interpret the G code? > rayj wrote: > > > On 05/14/2014 09:43 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, rayj wrote: >> >>> I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for >>> the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the >>> motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm >>> segment under discussion). >>> >> The Cartesian and Polar coordinate system are on the same side of the >> kinematics. >> The Joint system is on the other side of the kinematics. >> >> >>> Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line >>> parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line >>> (motion from the Cartesian point to point >> calculate (ow!) or use software to generate the commands to be sent to >>> the (3, I'm guessing)motors? >>> >> You program the machine to move in the Cartesian coordinate system using >> Cartesian and/or Polar coordinates. >> LinuxCNC reads what you want, calculates where you want to move, sends the >> move coordinates to the kinematics module, the kinematics module calculates >> where the motor/slides should be to give you what you want then sends its >> calculation to the control to move the motor/slide to position. >> >> >>> And back to the original question, are those joints designated by one of >>> the xyzabcuvw designations, or is there a completely different >>> designation system. >>> >> Axes in LinuxCNC are labeled XYZABCUVW >> Joints in LinuxCNC are labeled joint0, joint1 ... >> >> There are some confusing areas where the labels are mixed but the context >> should make it clear for you. "crossed fingers" >> >> >>> >>> Is there a robotics textbook out there that anyone can recommend? I've >>> found that out of date textbooks can be gotten for very little and are a >>> wealth of information. >>> >> Robotics kinematics is a different animal than the trivial kinematics of >> the 3 axis mill. >> But the hard work has been done for most robot configurations. >> > The robot kinematics is one aspect that I'm interested in. That's one > of the reasons I chose to work with LCNC for my machining setup. It has > far wider applications. > > So when I designate a motion in Cartesian space, the kinematics module > generates the G code to make the motors move. So the setup for a given > system is the programing the kinematics module with the information > about what G code, or perhaps a lower level language, that will result > in the commanded Cartesian space motion. Is most of this information in > the integrators manual, or some other LCNC manual? > > Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I can't imagine how long > it would have taken me to get the overall view you've explained to me. > Assuming I have understood correctly. :>) > > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > >> >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> Kettle River, MN >>> >>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, >>> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. >>> And those traits we detest, sha
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
On 05/14/2014 10:59 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: > Ray, > > I think it would be best for you to spend some time reading > through LinuxCNC documentation. There are quite a few > excellent manuals on the entire set of software, from G-code > interpreter all the way to axis movement. > > Here are some suggested starting points: > > kinematics: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/motion/kinematics.html > > block diagram of the system: > page 14 of http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/pdf/LinuxCNC_Developer_Manual.pdf > > -- Ralph Just what I was looking for! I'm embarrassed I didn't find them looking through the site. I guess I didn't think of this as being a developer issue, given it's a pretty settled function, as I understand it. I'd still be interested in picking up a robotics text, if anyone has any recommendations. Thanks again to everyone for the education! Back to lurking. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN > From: rayj [raymo...@frontiernet.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:38 PM > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] axes definition > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, > understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. > And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, > egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men > admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. > -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) > > On 05/14/2014 10:18 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: >> G-code *is* how you specify your Cartesian motion. Kinematics converts that >> to motions of each joint or axis. >> >> -- Ralph >> > What language is used to program the kinematics module with the > information to allow it to interpret the G code? > > > > >> rayj wrote: >> >> >> On 05/14/2014 09:43 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, rayj wrote: >>> >>>> I understand Cartesian and Polar coordinate systems. I'm looking for >>>> the actual method of deriving the commands that need to be sent to the >>>> motor (assuming the motor shaft is the axis of rotation for the arm >>>> segment under discussion). >>>> >>> The Cartesian and Polar coordinate system are on the same side of the >>> kinematics. >>> The Joint system is on the other side of the kinematics. >>> >>> >>>> Example: you want to move the tip of the mill in a vertical line >>>> parallel to the Z axis. How do you take the description of that line >>>> (motion from the Cartesian point to point >>> calculate (ow!) or use software to generate the commands to be sent to >>>> the (3, I'm guessing)motors? >>>> >>> You program the machine to move in the Cartesian coordinate system using >>> Cartesian and/or Polar coordinates. >>> LinuxCNC reads what you want, calculates where you want to move, sends the >>> move coordinates to the kinematics module, the kinematics module calculates >>> where the motor/slides should be to give you what you want then sends its >>> calculation to the control to move the motor/slide to position. >>> >>> >>>> And back to the original question, are those joints designated by one of >>>> the xyzabcuvw designations, or is there a completely different >>>> designation system. >>>> >>> Axes in LinuxCNC are labeled XYZABCUVW >>> Joints in LinuxCNC are labeled joint0, joint1 ... >>> >>> There are some confusing areas where the labels are mixed but the context >>> should make it clear for you. "crossed fingers" >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Is there a robotics textbook out there that anyone can recommend? I've >>>> found that out of date textbooks can be gotten for very little and are a >>>> wealth of information. >>>> >>> Robotics kinematics is a different animal than the trivial kinematics of >>> the 3 axis mill. >>> But the hard work has been done for most robot configurations. >>> >> The robot kinematics is one aspect that I'm interested in. That's one >> of the reasons I chose to work with LCNC for my machining setup. It has >> far wider applications. >> >> So when I designate a motion in Cartesian space, the kinematics module >> generates the G code to make the motors move. S
Re: [Emc-users] axes definition
On 05/14/2014 04:48 PM, rayj wrote: > Greetings, > > Can anyone point me to a good diagram or description of the 9 axes and > their typical uses? I get x,y,z,and a, but from there I can't find any > clear diagrams. I'm guessing they would be defined 1 way in a CNC > center and differently in controlling the motion of a robotic arm. Just > looking for a place where I can study, instead of spending hours surfing > and looking at fragmented and conflicting info. > > TIA > for pictures of the relations... http://www.globalspec.com/reference/76593/203279/multiaxis-machine-configurations for examples of how machines _might_ use thes axis: http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/cnc_machines.html there are many classic machine tool configurations sometimes the ABC merely 'pose' the part often, 2 angular axis are sufficient, and 3 are not necessary sometimes the ABC are interpolated, depends on the cnc control the UVW are sometimes used to move the xyz work space about in a large envelope,or W might simply adapt Z by moving the spindle stroke range into the work zone. UV can oscillate the spindle ( EDM orbiting or trochoidal machining) google up an xy turntable mounted on a bridgeport to see a crazy way to mill pockets in a mold base (thats xyz c uv) The array of combinations is large. try google images for 'multi axis cnc' remember basics: some machines spin the tool and hold work still (mill, grinder, drill) some machines spin the work and hold tool still (lathe) some machines dont spin anything (punch, EDM) and more variants than this short list HTH tjtr33 tomp xyzab are common, example: part is rotated and tilted by ab mounted above xy table or part is aligned to xy travel on xy table but spindle has yaw and pitch ( google nutating head) the C is used insink edm to turn tool to an angle to the X axis (eg radial array of slots) -- "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
