Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:26:15 +0200 Francois fan...@gmail.com said: Jeremy Quandt quand...@hotmail.com mailto:quand...@hotmail.com?Subject=Re:%20%20e17%20and%20eclipse%20-%20focus% 20problem wrote: I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am using an Ubuntu 11.10 machine, with the ppa https://launchpad.net/%7Ehannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn and I work daily using Eclipse to code and I often have window focusing problems. For java I have setup to use Sun's java (/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun/jre/bin/java). I do have the GNOME Settings Daemon and a number of other Ubuntu stuff launched on startup, namely just to get the GTK windows looking right in addition to the network and proxy pieces working correctly. There is no ecomorph running or compiz. Mouse focus is set to click to focus. I really like e17, but the conflicts with Eclipse focusing is getting harder to accept. I haven't been able to fully list steps to reproduce yet, but some of the symptoms I have are as follows: 1.) Edit window looses focus (greyed out). If the text buffer has changed it won't allow me to save. File context Save All is also disallowed even though the buffer shows change. To save the file I have to close the tab for the file, which will then prompt me to save the file. I then have to dig through my project to reopen the file. 2.) Select text in an editor for a file, find and Replace window (I have mapped to CTRL+F) when invoked will appear but the editor has lost focus so the Find button will be greyed out until the editor window is selected and the Find Replace window is reselected. 3.) When debugging, the thread stack doesn't always allow switching a thread (seems to ignore the click). On a side note, Mono (debugger) also will crash when hovering over a variable in the watch window. A tooltip usually displays extended values of the variable (like a full string). Not sure what else I can do to help, but I will try to see if I can get the issue to be reproducible. For the record, I do experience similar problems, which disapear when I switch to Gnome, so it really seems to be a window manager problem. The point 1) above is really annoying for me. I use E17 from trunk with easy_e17.sh script on a Debian Sid machine, with an Eclipse 3.7.1 and a Java 7 (openJDK) JVM. I don't know how I could help solving these issues, but if I can help, I will be glad to. i'm going to give something very non-positive here now. look for mentions of the word java in e17's src. and then look for the swear words right near it. here is the reality of things: java's awt is built to emulate a windows style focus and behavior world. having read some of its x11 layer code, it looks like it's written by some junior programmer with little to no idea about x11. it tries make a x11+wm world appear like the windows world. reality is that this is nigh impossible. and doing so to work across wm's needs high levewls of skill, knowledge, experience and needs care and effort. java has code (i've read it before) SPECIFICALLY to detect a range of window managers and work around them, do weird and wonderful things in each situation, and try all sorts of tricks to get things to happen that it wants. fact is that java doesn't respect icccm/netwm/x11 correctly and does hacks to get its write once, run anywhere to work. i gave up working around java a long time ago. i'm down to not really caring anymore as i've sunk 100's of hours of trying to find bugs in e only to find it's java being a dick. i have little patience or time to bother anymore. patches (that don't totally screw e17's src) accepted. :) https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=59639 seems like a eclipse bug with focus-window-under-mouse, should work when setting e's window focus to click-to-focus. I'm also currently not in the mood to fix this. But maybe I'll look after it some day. Regards, Hannes -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
Perhaps there is difference between Click to Focus and Windows under Mouse focus related to Eclipse. I specifically use Hanne's excellent Enlightenment PPA on Ubuntu 11.10 as focus issues with Eclipse under Unity (amongst other irritants) were driving me crazy. I use Eclipse a lot along with many applications simultaneously open which Unity does not handle well IMHO. Using the default Windows under Mouse focus with E17 I have had no such problems. Regards, Bo On 22/04/12 18:47, hannes.janet...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Carsten Haitzlerras...@rasterman.com wrote: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:26:15 +0200 Francoisfan...@gmail.com said: Jeremy Quandtquand...@hotmail.com mailto:quand...@hotmail.com?Subject=Re:%20%20e17%20and%20eclipse%20-%20focus% 20problem wrote: I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am using an Ubuntu 11.10 machine, with the ppa https://launchpad.net/%7Ehannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn and I work daily using Eclipse to code and I often have window focusing problems. For java I have setup to use Sun's java (/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun/jre/bin/java). I do have the GNOME Settings Daemon and a number of other Ubuntu stuff launched on startup, namely just to get the GTK windows looking right in addition to the network and proxy pieces working correctly. There is no ecomorph running or compiz. Mouse focus is set to click to focus. I really like e17, but the conflicts with Eclipse focusing is getting harder to accept. I haven't been able to fully list steps to reproduce yet, but some of the symptoms I have are as follows: 1.) Edit window looses focus (greyed out). If the text buffer has changed it won't allow me to save. File context Save All is also disallowed even though the buffer shows change. To save the file I have to close the tab for the file, which will then prompt me to save the file. I then have to dig through my project to reopen the file. 2.) Select text in an editor for a file, find and Replace window (I have mapped to CTRL+F) when invoked will appear but the editor has lost focus so the Find button will be greyed out until the editor window is selected and the Find Replace window is reselected. 3.) When debugging, the thread stack doesn't always allow switching a thread (seems to ignore the click). On a side note, Mono (debugger) also will crash when hovering over a variable in the watch window. A tooltip usually displays extended values of the variable (like a full string). Not sure what else I can do to help, but I will try to see if I can get the issue to be reproducible. For the record, I do experience similar problems, which disapear when I switch to Gnome, so it really seems to be a window manager problem. The point 1) above is really annoying for me. I use E17 from trunk with easy_e17.sh script on a Debian Sid machine, with an Eclipse 3.7.1 and a Java 7 (openJDK) JVM. I don't know how I could help solving these issues, but if I can help, I will be glad to. i'm going to give something very non-positive here now. look for mentions of the word java in e17's src. and then look for the swear words right near it. here is the reality of things: java's awt is built to emulate a windows style focus and behavior world. having read some of its x11 layer code, it looks like it's written by some junior programmer with little to no idea about x11. it tries make a x11+wm world appear like the windows world. reality is that this is nigh impossible. and doing so to work across wm's needs high levewls of skill, knowledge, experience and needs care and effort. java has code (i've read it before) SPECIFICALLY to detect a range of window managers and work around them, do weird and wonderful things in each situation, and try all sorts of tricks to get things to happen that it wants. fact is that java doesn't respect icccm/netwm/x11 correctly and does hacks to get its write once, run anywhere to work. i gave up working around java a long time ago. i'm down to not really caring anymore as i've sunk 100's of hours of trying to find bugs in e only to find it's java being a dick. i have little patience or time to bother anymore. patches (that don't totally screw e17's src) accepted. :) https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=59639 seems like a eclipse bug with focus-window-under-mouse, should work when setting e's window focus to click-to-focus. I'm also currently not in the mood to fix this. But maybe I'll look after it some day. Regards, Hannes -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 12:47 PM, hannes.janet...@gmail.com hannes.janet...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:26:15 +0200 Francois fan...@gmail.com said: Jeremy Quandt quand...@hotmail.com mailto:quand...@hotmail.com?Subject=Re:%20%20e17%20and%20eclipse%20-%20focus% 20problem wrote: I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am using an Ubuntu 11.10 machine, with the ppa https://launchpad.net/%7Ehannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn and I work daily using Eclipse to code and I often have window focusing problems. For java I have setup to use Sun's java (/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun/jre/bin/java). I do have the GNOME Settings Daemon and a number of other Ubuntu stuff launched on startup, namely just to get the GTK windows looking right in addition to the network and proxy pieces working correctly. There is no ecomorph running or compiz. Mouse focus is set to click to focus. I really like e17, but the conflicts with Eclipse focusing is getting harder to accept. I haven't been able to fully list steps to reproduce yet, but some of the symptoms I have are as follows: 1.) Edit window looses focus (greyed out). If the text buffer has changed it won't allow me to save. File context Save All is also disallowed even though the buffer shows change. To save the file I have to close the tab for the file, which will then prompt me to save the file. I then have to dig through my project to reopen the file. 2.) Select text in an editor for a file, find and Replace window (I have mapped to CTRL+F) when invoked will appear but the editor has lost focus so the Find button will be greyed out until the editor window is selected and the Find Replace window is reselected. 3.) When debugging, the thread stack doesn't always allow switching a thread (seems to ignore the click). On a side note, Mono (debugger) also will crash when hovering over a variable in the watch window. A tooltip usually displays extended values of the variable (like a full string). Not sure what else I can do to help, but I will try to see if I can get the issue to be reproducible. For the record, I do experience similar problems, which disapear when I switch to Gnome, so it really seems to be a window manager problem. The point 1) above is really annoying for me. I use E17 from trunk with easy_e17.sh script on a Debian Sid machine, with an Eclipse 3.7.1 and a Java 7 (openJDK) JVM. I don't know how I could help solving these issues, but if I can help, I will be glad to. i'm going to give something very non-positive here now. look for mentions of the word java in e17's src. and then look for the swear words right near it. here is the reality of things: java's awt is built to emulate a windows style focus and behavior world. having read some of its x11 layer code, it looks like it's written by some junior programmer with little to no idea about x11. it tries make a x11+wm world appear like the windows world. reality is that this is nigh impossible. and doing so to work across wm's needs high levewls of skill, knowledge, experience and needs care and effort. java has code (i've read it before) SPECIFICALLY to detect a range of window managers and work around them, do weird and wonderful things in each situation, and try all sorts of tricks to get things to happen that it wants. fact is that java doesn't respect icccm/netwm/x11 correctly and does hacks to get its write once, run anywhere to work. i gave up working around java a long time ago. i'm down to not really caring anymore as i've sunk 100's of hours of trying to find bugs in e only to find it's java being a dick. i have little patience or time to bother anymore. patches (that don't totally screw e17's src) accepted. :) https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=59639 seems like a eclipse bug with focus-window-under-mouse, should work when setting e's window focus to click-to-focus. I'm also currently not in the mood to fix this. But maybe I'll look after it some day. I meant 'work around this'... I guess a 'focus mode toggle' button gadget would be the best solution Regards, Hannes -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users --
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
Jeremy Quandt quand...@hotmail.com mailto:quand...@hotmail.com?Subject=Re:%20%20e17%20and%20eclipse%20-%20focus%20problem wrote: I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am using an Ubuntu 11.10 machine, with the ppa https://launchpad.net/%7Ehannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn and I work daily using Eclipse to code and I often have window focusing problems. For java I have setup to use Sun's java (/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun/jre/bin/java). I do have the GNOME Settings Daemon and a number of other Ubuntu stuff launched on startup, namely just to get the GTK windows looking right in addition to the network and proxy pieces working correctly. There is no ecomorph running or compiz. Mouse focus is set to click to focus. I really like e17, but the conflicts with Eclipse focusing is getting harder to accept. I haven't been able to fully list steps to reproduce yet, but some of the symptoms I have are as follows: 1.) Edit window looses focus (greyed out). If the text buffer has changed it won't allow me to save. File context Save All is also disallowed even though the buffer shows change. To save the file I have to close the tab for the file, which will then prompt me to save the file. I then have to dig through my project to reopen the file. 2.) Select text in an editor for a file, find and Replace window (I have mapped to CTRL+F) when invoked will appear but the editor has lost focus so the Find button will be greyed out until the editor window is selected and the Find Replace window is reselected. 3.) When debugging, the thread stack doesn't always allow switching a thread (seems to ignore the click). On a side note, Mono (debugger) also will crash when hovering over a variable in the watch window. A tooltip usually displays extended values of the variable (like a full string). Not sure what else I can do to help, but I will try to see if I can get the issue to be reproducible. For the record, I do experience similar problems, which disapear when I switch to Gnome, so it really seems to be a window manager problem. The point 1) above is really annoying for me. I use E17 from trunk with easy_e17.sh script on a Debian Sid machine, with an Eclipse 3.7.1 and a Java 7 (openJDK) JVM. I don't know how I could help solving these issues, but if I can help, I will be glad to. Thanks, -- Francois ARMAND http://fanf42.blogspot.com http://www.normation.com -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:26:15 +0200 Francois fan...@gmail.com said: Jeremy Quandt quand...@hotmail.com mailto:quand...@hotmail.com?Subject=Re:%20%20e17%20and%20eclipse%20-%20focus% 20problem wrote: I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am using an Ubuntu 11.10 machine, with the ppa https://launchpad.net/%7Ehannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn and I work daily using Eclipse to code and I often have window focusing problems. For java I have setup to use Sun's java (/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun/jre/bin/java). I do have the GNOME Settings Daemon and a number of other Ubuntu stuff launched on startup, namely just to get the GTK windows looking right in addition to the network and proxy pieces working correctly. There is no ecomorph running or compiz. Mouse focus is set to click to focus. I really like e17, but the conflicts with Eclipse focusing is getting harder to accept. I haven't been able to fully list steps to reproduce yet, but some of the symptoms I have are as follows: 1.) Edit window looses focus (greyed out). If the text buffer has changed it won't allow me to save. File context Save All is also disallowed even though the buffer shows change. To save the file I have to close the tab for the file, which will then prompt me to save the file. I then have to dig through my project to reopen the file. 2.) Select text in an editor for a file, find and Replace window (I have mapped to CTRL+F) when invoked will appear but the editor has lost focus so the Find button will be greyed out until the editor window is selected and the Find Replace window is reselected. 3.) When debugging, the thread stack doesn't always allow switching a thread (seems to ignore the click). On a side note, Mono (debugger) also will crash when hovering over a variable in the watch window. A tooltip usually displays extended values of the variable (like a full string). Not sure what else I can do to help, but I will try to see if I can get the issue to be reproducible. For the record, I do experience similar problems, which disapear when I switch to Gnome, so it really seems to be a window manager problem. The point 1) above is really annoying for me. I use E17 from trunk with easy_e17.sh script on a Debian Sid machine, with an Eclipse 3.7.1 and a Java 7 (openJDK) JVM. I don't know how I could help solving these issues, but if I can help, I will be glad to. i'm going to give something very non-positive here now. look for mentions of the word java in e17's src. and then look for the swear words right near it. here is the reality of things: java's awt is built to emulate a windows style focus and behavior world. having read some of its x11 layer code, it looks like it's written by some junior programmer with little to no idea about x11. it tries make a x11+wm world appear like the windows world. reality is that this is nigh impossible. and doing so to work across wm's needs high levewls of skill, knowledge, experience and needs care and effort. java has code (i've read it before) SPECIFICALLY to detect a range of window managers and work around them, do weird and wonderful things in each situation, and try all sorts of tricks to get things to happen that it wants. fact is that java doesn't respect icccm/netwm/x11 correctly and does hacks to get its write once, run anywhere to work. i gave up working around java a long time ago. i'm down to not really caring anymore as i've sunk 100's of hours of trying to find bugs in e only to find it's java being a dick. i have little patience or time to bother anymore. patches (that don't totally screw e17's src) accepted. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
As I can not find the focus settings. I am going to assume that I have the defaults. My focus currently follows my mouse, and requires me to click on the title bar to change z ordering. I do not use Compiz, Sawfish or LG3D. Austin Morgan On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 05:49:10PM +0100, Mehturt wrote: On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Austin Morgan admor...@morgancomputers.net wrote: I am running e17 on gentoo with eclipse indigo rc1 and not seeing this issue. That is strange, are you using any non-default focus settings in e17? My problem is that after 1st quick-fix the focus does not return to the editor, e.g. if the quick-fix adds an import, I cannot save the change (via ctrl+s or clicking on the save icon), it's greyed-out. In the meantime I also tried to set wm name (via wmname utility) to either Compiz, Sawfish or LG3D prior to running eclipse, but the behavior is the same. m. -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:36:36 +0100 Mehturt meht...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I am using Eclipse 3.7.1 with E17 (rev 67696) on Debian and I am having strange focus issues with quickfix window. Suppose there are 2 errors in the code which I need to quick fix; I position mouse over 1st error, quickfix window appears, I select the fix, so far so good. I position mouse over 2nd error, quickfix window appears but when I try to select the fix, the window disappears. The workaround is to switch to another window (using alt+tab) and back, then the quickfix works again. Is this a known issue, if yes, is there a workaround for this? I tried to search around whether it's eclipse problem or not but did not find anything. My friend who is using eclipse with Gnome3 does not see this problem, that's why I assumed it might be E17's fault. Thank you for any information on this.. I vaguely recall that Java has hard coded assumptions about the window manager it is running on, and those only include GNOME or KDE. E17 has some workarounds for that silliness, but they may not be enough. Mind you, I might be wrong, or the flavour of Java you are using might be different. It could also be different enough to break E17's workarounds. -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world. -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
I am running e17 on gentoo with eclipse indigo rc1 and not seeing this issue. Austin - Reply message - From: Mehturt meht...@gmail.com To: enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 9:36 am Hi everyone, I am using Eclipse 3.7.1 with E17 (rev 67696) on Debian and I am having strange focus issues with quickfix window. Suppose there are 2 errors in the code which I need to quick fix; I position mouse over 1st error, quickfix window appears, I select the fix, so far so good. I position mouse over 2nd error, quickfix window appears but when I try to select the fix, the window disappears. The workaround is to switch to another window (using alt+tab) and back, then the quickfix works again. Is this a known issue, if yes, is there a workaround for this? I tried to search around whether it's eclipse problem or not but did not find anything. My friend who is using eclipse with Gnome3 does not see this problem, that's why I assumed it might be E17's fault. Thank you for any information on this.. m. -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] e17 and eclipse - focus problem
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Austin Morgan admor...@morgancomputers.net wrote: I am running e17 on gentoo with eclipse indigo rc1 and not seeing this issue. That is strange, are you using any non-default focus settings in e17? My problem is that after 1st quick-fix the focus does not return to the editor, e.g. if the quick-fix adds an import, I cannot save the change (via ctrl+s or clicking on the save icon), it's greyed-out. In the meantime I also tried to set wm name (via wmname utility) to either Compiz, Sawfish or LG3D prior to running eclipse, but the behavior is the same. m. -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
