[EVDL] Old-school ~40's pump turned public EVSE, Odwalla e-deliveries
% I found a couple of items in the newswire below that was more interesting than the headline the creative way the public EVSE was implemented at a Santa Cruz CA store. For those that have not been to Santa Cruz, there is an ample supply of artistic talent within the Santa Cruz county mountain folk. Like several of CA's mountainous counties, sometimes conformity gives way to artistry in a way that adds panache to living-in or visiting there. See the image below for an a ~1940's Sunland pump that was turned into a public EVSE. While others may say, this is nothing new/its has been done before, this gives me personally something to seek out to see the next time I am out-n-about in Santa Cruz. This old-pump is monastic of by-gone days, when full service stations abound for self-destructing hungry-overpowered-inefficient-ice, and the extreme petrol-profits greed had not kicked into excess like it is today (OT it costs a lot to fund terrorism /OT) The other point of interest for me in the newswire below was the mention that a local fresh bottled juice company (Coca-Cola's) Odwalla is using Smith Electric Vehicles to deliver in SF. % http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/technology/20141216/santa-cruz-to-end-perk-for-electric-vehicles Santa Cruz to end perk for electric vehicles By Jessica A. York 12/16/14 [image http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/NE/20141216/NEWS/141219722/AR/0/AR-141219722.jpg (Sunland gas pump EVSE) Dave Faulkner charges his electric vehicle outside of Zayante Market in Felton ... Dave Faulkner uses a personally installed electric car charger in Felton. (Thomas Mendoza -- Santa Cruz Sentinel) ] Electric vehicles by the numbers • 1.5 million: Gov. Brown’s goal for electric cars on the road statewide by 2025. • 100,000: Plug-in cars sold in California since in 2010 • 40: Percent of national electric car sales made in California • 51: Electric vehicle charging stations countywide • 8: City of Santa Cruz car charging stations being repaired Sources: California Plug-In Electric Vehicle Collaborative, plugshare.com, chargepoint.com. SANTA CRUZ Seeking balance in the city’s alternative energy transportation needs, Santa Cruz will take a step back from a long-time downtown public incentive, beginning Jan. 1. Electric vehicle owners have enjoyed free metered and garage parking and charging since the city first began installing charging stations in 2002. After the first of the year, however, electric vehicle users will be join the ranks of traditional vehicle users and be charged for parking at all for-pay locations. Charging your electric vehicle will remain free. The incentive program was designed to last for just one year, with an expected 50 to 60 cars using the pay-parking spaces annually. To date, about that many drivers use city parking structure spaces per week, said city Public Works Department spokeswoman Janice Bisgaard. “The program has been successful in helping to spur the use of zero emissions transportation. The city’s objective has been accomplished,” Bisgaard said. “Encouragement is no longer an issue. We are now reaching capacity at our charging stations.” Bisgaard said members of public-private partnership Monterey Bay Electric Vehicle Alliance expected these type of incentive programs to gradually phase out as electric vehicle use grew. For electric vehicle users such as Felton resident Dave Faulkner, who began leasing his electric car in January, the change in vehicles was an important step in a long-held plan to reduce his carbon footprint. However, free parking and free car charging stations in and around Santa Cruz, along with state and federal incentives, Faulkner said, helped push him to follow through with the idea. “If the incentives weren’t there, who would give, ‘Here’s an extra $10,000 out of my pocket.’ Who’s going to do this?” Faulkner said in an earlier interview. When Faulkner, a biologist, ran into repeated problems with the city’s free charging stations malfunctioning last year, he decided to purchase his own charger and install it in front of his Felton building, which houses the Zayante Market. The public station stands complete with an antique gas pump housing, which echoes the property’s role as a Chevron gas station in the 1940s. Since their installation last year, eight of the 13 Santa Cruz city-operated electric vehicle charging stations had functioned inconsistently, city Public Works Department spokeswoman Bisgaard said. Eight of those stations were given a system overhaul on Oct. 10, including installation of longer, 18-foot cables, she said. Growing trend Faulkner is one of 429 registered electric vehicle owners this year in Santa Cruz County, according to California Department of Motor Vehicles data. Since July 2010, 493 new Clean Vehicle Rebates from the California Air Resource Board have been issued for all-battery electric-powered vehicles in Santa Cruz County, according to date compiled by
[EVDL] EVLN: Barnes' evnorthcarolina.com conversion shop spins-off hot EVs
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/money/business/2014/12/13/waynesville-conversion-shop-riding-electric-car-trend/20380949/ Waynesville conversion shop riding electric car trend Caitlin Byrd December 13, 2014 [image http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/Asheville/2014/12/13/B9315415686Z.1_20141213210605_000_GLI9CBRD5.1-0.jpg (Photo: William Woody / wwo...@citizen-times.com) ] WAYNESVILLE – Nothing revs up Kent Barnes quite like a quiet electric motor. For five years, the 71-year-old has been in the business of transforming traditional, gas-powered vehicles into electric ones through Electric Vehicles of North Carolina, a conversion shop he runs with his son, David Barnes, in Waynesville. “I’m an electric vehicle evangelist,” said Kent Barnes, who has been teaching two classes about hybrid and electric vehicles this semester as an adjunct instructor at Haywood Community College. “I teach it, I live it and I promote it.” A few years ago, Kent Barnes bought an electric car of his own, a Nissan LEAF. Today, the Black Mountain resident drives a Chevrolet Volt. “Driving one of these is a whole different driving experience,” he said, as his hybrid car zipped up a steep, winding driveway in Waynesville. “It’s so quiet you can actually hear the gravel crunch.” But Kent Barnes says he thinks a person should not have to buy a new car or sell a beloved vehicle to fill up less at the pump. “Building electric cars is very satisfying. You can take a vehicle you really like that’s wearing out,” Kent Barnes said. “Maybe the engine’s going bad, but you can convert it to electric and drive it for another 10 years.” In their private garage a few miles down from Exit 24 in Waynesville, the father and son walked toward two vehicles being converted to electric. Though one car is a 2003 Subaru Baja and the other is an 2000 Audi TT convertible, both are now battery-powered machines. “A lot of people don’t realize we can do it,” Kent Barnes said. “Overall, the amount of battery technology is increasing. If you think about your home, is there anything at home that isn’t battery powered? How about the office? Everything in the office is powered by electricity. The only thing that’s not is the car sitting in the garage.” On average, the pair can convert one vehicle in as little as one or two weeks if all of the parts arrive on time. A conversion can cost $17,000- $22,000 using lithium batteries, and a vehicle can drive between 60 and 100 miles. Business has been sporadic for the conversion shop. Electric Vehicles of North Carolina has been working on about one car every three months. Both of the Barnes men said they would like to see that number grow to at least one a month, if not more. When David Barnes isn’t working on a conversion, he works at his repair shop, Subaru’s and Such. He said that’s the only way he can make it work for now. But working on the electric cars with his father gives him a sense of accomplishment like no other. “Dad’s been in electronics all my life, and I grew up around the electrical part of it. I extremely enjoy working on these vehicles. I love taking something that’s broken and being able make it usable again,” the 41-year-old technician said. “I learned most everything from him when it came to the visionary part of being able to look at that Subaru and know I can do that to it.” Popping open the hood of the first all-wheel drive electric vehicle they have built, David Barnes shows off what’s under the hood and, more importantly, what isn’t. “There’s only a couple of real components you need to make it work. You take out the gas engine, and you put in the electric motor. Then, there has to be a brain, so there’s a computer that talks to the throttle and tells the motor how much power to give it,” his father said. “There’s a controller that looks like a briefcase — like a little silver box — and then there’s the main motor, but the rest is cooling fans.” The eco-friendly car business began in 2009 with a red Mazda pickup truck in the basement of Kent Barnes’ Black Mountain home, but he said the idea started long before that. Kent Barnes always had an interest in electronics and grew up watching his father tinker with cars. But when the 1973 Arab oil embargo crippled the nation’s economy and resulted in long lines of cars waiting at gas stations during the shortage, Kent Barnes started thinking about electric cars as a way to wean the country off foreign oil. “But the technology just wasn’t there yet,” he said. Today, Kent Barnes said the technology is evolving quickly and he has been seeing a growing interest in these vehicles. In September, the Clean Vehicles Coalition, a project of the Land of Sky Regional Council, participated in the National Drive Electric Week to showcase its electric charging stations on Charlotte Street and introduce locals to electric vehicles. “We had more than 100 people who were able to actually go for a ride in electric cars, and they could talk to
[EVDL] EVLN: I realized that I’d married my EV
and gosh darn it, this is worth it.” http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2014_12_10_how_and_why_I_married_my_EV How and Why I Married My EV Peter Bronski Dec 10, 2014 [image (marriage cans tied to the back) ] When I last wrote about electric vehicles (EVs), I focused on range anxiety—and more specifically, my lack thereof—and why it should be a non-issue for many drivers who fall into a particular demographic sweet spot. In the article I cited a 2013 statistic that a whopping 92 percent of surveyed EV drivers reported overall satisfaction with their battery electric car. However, a commenter argued that such a statistic would likely be skewed because EV drivers would be inclined to report satisfaction. They’d just made a major purchase, the commenter said, and that substantial investment would bias drivers toward wanting to be satisfied with their EV, whether they truly were or not. I absolutely agree. And I don’t. I’ll explain. I don’t disagree that EV drivers are prone to being satisfied with their car, but I strongly believe it’s unfair to single them out. For one, I previously noted how EV drivers self-select, so they by default come from a demographic more likely to be satisfied with their car, since an EV is well-suited to their needs. But for another, the same factors that bias an EV driver toward reporting satisfaction with their vehicle also hold for any other major purchase—a gasoline-burning car, a house, even a smartphone. When you’ve just dropped major coin on an important purchase, no one wants to regret it. You look for the positive. You want it to work out. This looking for the positive—and similarly, downplaying the negative—goes by another familiar name: compromise. The ideal that checks every box on your wish list rarely exists. Speaking from personal experience, that’s certainly been the case for me … with my chosen city and state, my house, and every car I’ve ever driven. I live in Colorado, where the Rocky Mountains are my glorious playground and where I’m a short drive, moderate bicycle, or long run from the office. But as a New York native, would I love to also be closer to the ocean and the boating, fishing, surfing, and fresh seafood of my childhood? Absolutely. The house my wife and I ultimately bought here was a delicate balance of community, commute, school district, proximity to hiking and recreation trails, neighborhood, the physical house itself, and what we could get for our money where. And then there was our Jeep Cherokee, which had clearance and 4WD but modest fuel economy, and our Honda Accord, which offers 50 percent better gas mileage but only front-wheel drive and standard sedan clearance. (We sold the Jeep four years ago and kept the Honda.) Things like these—state of residence, house, vehicle—are big commitments. We weigh the requisite compromises carefully. We make a researched, informed decision (though sometimes also a rash decision informed chiefly by emotion and impulse). And we move forward with life, and all the benefits and constraints our chosen direction involves. And then it dawned on me. This sounded an awful lot like marriage, with which I now have more than 11 years of experience. A spouse can be perfect for you, but there exists no objectively perfect spouse. Marriage is a big commitment, plain and simple, and seeing through the long-term success of such a relationship necessarily requires compromise. But when you the pick the “right” spouse, those compromises are easier and far fewer to make. Which is how I realized that I’d married my Nissan LEAF (and my state… and my house… and, of course, my real wife, Kelli). We report satisfaction, not because we’re ignoring or otherwise glossing over the negative, but rather because we’re willing to focus on the positive and to make the relationship work. And as I’ve previously written, for drivers in the EV sweet spot, “making the relationship work” is easy because they’re a shoe-in for the EV demographic. For me, one of the few compromises I feel like I’ve made with the LEAF is this: range is not at all an issue, but with three young children all still in either full-back booster seats or rear-facing car seats, buckling them in three across the back seat is pretty snug. Are EV drivers more inclined to be satisfied with their EVs? Sure. That’s in large part because they know what they’re getting into—they fit the EV sweet spot demographic—and so their percent satisfaction rate is going to be higher. But even for those EV drivers who might not be totally over the moon but report satisfaction anyway, that’s fine. They’re coming face-to-face with the realities of their new automotive relationship, and they’re effectively saying, “I’m going to make this work, because the positive outweighs the negative, and gosh darn it, this is worth it.” As the year soon ticks over to 2015, it’ll become time to celebrate the one-year anniversary with my EV. I don’t know that I’ll pop a bottle of bubbly. But I do know that
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
As more coal plants are converted to 0% direct air pollution, then this will be no problem. We have one coal generating plant about 460 miles east of us that is in North Dakota. It has been converted to a 0% direct air pollution. There is no main stack that releases CO2 and/or other compounds in the air. Also there is no train and trucks that deliver the coal to the coal plant. The large mining equipment only uses electric power that comes from this coal plant. The coal is deliver by large electric drive conveyers that are miles long. The coal is deliver to a coal processor where it is reduce to a fine dust that is blown in from the bottom and at the top of the coal plant. As the coal combines together in the middle of the stack, it is ignited. The exhaust comes out of the side of the stack and goes down to generators that produce the electricity. The exhaust exits out of the generator that goes to processor plant to separate the compounds to be sold to manufacturers. The CO2 is deliver to the oil fields in North Dakota and Canada, where it is injected into the oil formations which increases the specific gravity of the oil to above 25% which it then can be pipe directly to oil refineries with out pre-processing to get it to the specific gravity that is needed to pump into a oil pipe line. We have one pipe line that comes from Canada that goes to Great Falls, Montana to a converted refinery that processes this oil. We sneak that one in before it got delay like the Tar Sand oil pipe line. Note, they do not pipe TAR SAND oil which is the asphalt base of this oil. It is pre-refine to get it to a certain specific gravity, so it can be pump into a pipe line and becomes the same specific gravity as the oils in the U.S. I use about 2.5 gallons of this oil products in my EV, which is 12 gts for the transmission, 6 gts for the differential, 5 qts for the hydraulic pumps for the power steering and power brakes. Then there is the greases for all the bearings. I get the electricity from the indirect power of the sun and gravity. Water rising from the oceans, falling back down through hydro dams of which we have five here in Great Falls. One has just been converted with power houses off the river instead of the standard dam type. Roland - Original Message - From: Danny Ames via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ; Sfevamailto:sf...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:36 AM Subject: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars. Report is titled: Life cycle air quality impacts of conventional andalternative light-duty transportation in theUnited States It seems the main stream press has taken this to task citing the PNAS report that EV's cars can pollute more than gas cars. Thus making the case for EVs more difficult to defend. What I'm not sure is the report did not take into consideration I believe is the amount of electricity to make the fuel. This single fact I think would significantly alter the report to favor EV cars over gas. Of course their many of other reasons to drive EV's over ICE gas cars. Some major news outlets and even my local news station KPIX TV started citing a new report http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitH from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aed350cf/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
=FitH from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm%3Chttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA%3Chttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/44b2399d/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline%3Chttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm%3Chttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org%3Chttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA%3Chttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/1556ca98/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
-duty transportation in theUnited States It seems the main stream press has taken this to task citing the PNAS report that EV's cars can pollute more than gas cars. Thus making the case for EVs more difficult to defend. What I'm not sure is the report did not take into consideration I believe is the amount of electricity to make the fuel. This single fact I think would significantly alter the report to favor EV cars over gas. Of course their many of other reasons to drive EV's over ICE gas cars. Some major news outlets and even my local news station KPIX TV started citing a new report http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitH from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm%3Chttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA%3Chttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/984dd74d/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Media misinterpreted academic report: PNAS report cites study that EV's ...
When I saw all the copy-cat reports of the paid-media's misinterpretation of
that report all over the newswires like a multiple of wormy-droppings, my
first thought was, Here we go again ...
How many times has it been that the media has been paid to pump/spew this
stuff out.
The forces that would lose profit when more plugins are on the road, have
paid since before I was lucky enough to join the evdl (that was a very long
time ago, circa 1990's). So, this is a never ending out cry, like falsely
accusing your neighbor of being a pedophile, or like in the old-days when
you wanted to get rid of a person, cry-out that they are a witch and have
them burned at the stake!
This yet another repeat of the paid-media' attempt to discredit EVs. I did
not post this because, I felt to do so would only help keep it alive / give
support to it by talking about it.
But since Danny has taken the reins and posted on this, I can help his
effort to counter this, by providing the following:
https://transportevolved.com/2014/12/21/transport-evolved-news-panel-talk-show-episode-222-wild-claims/
Are misinterpreted academic reports the symptom of our sound-bite culture,
poor reporting, or simply just a reminder that we should read research
papers for ourselves before drawing any conclusions?
which lead to
https://transportevolved.com/2014/12/16/beware-misinterpreted-study-electric-cars-yet-miscast-heavy-polluters/
Beware The Misinterpreted Study: How Electric Cars Are Yet Again Being
Miscast as Heavy Polluters
December 16, 2014 By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield
It’s a trope we’ve heard many times before and we’ll probably hear it many
times again in the future: the headline-grabbing proclamation that electric
cars are worse for the environment than gasoline cars ...
(read the rest yourself)
Danny provided a link to the original report, but sometimes it gets lost as
a thread grows, so here it is again:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf+html
I hope everyone will stay focused on the truth, and not let the paid-media's
misinterpretations continue.
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http://evdl.org/evln/
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Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Of course, if the CO2 is ultimately added to oil, then doesn't the CO2 eventually return to the atmosphere during refining or usage? Unless the CO2 is pumped back into the ground to stay, it's going to wind up in the atmosphere. However, if the CO2 can be used multiple times before it winds up in the atmosphere, that's definitely an improvement. One rather reasonable way to transition to an electrically-powered transportation system would be to generate electricity with coal to power EVs, capture the CO2 released from the coal at the smokestack, and then use solar and wind power to turn that CO2 into hydrocarbon fuels for vehicles with internal combustion engines. The overall result is to significantly extend the number of road miles per ton of CO2 we currently get. And, in the process, it builds out the carbon-free generating infrastructure that will eventually replace fossil fuels entirely. Also, if you have a plant that can turn compressed CO2 into liquid fuels...if you have surplus energy, as one would have after building enough solar generating capacity, you can extract the CO2 from the atmosphere and pump the liquid fuels you make back under ground. It's not unreasonable to suggest that, a couple centuries from now, if we were serious about it, we could thereby have returned atmospheric CO2 levels to those before the Industrial Revolution. I don't like coal...but I'm careful to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If significant progress is made in the right direction, it's a good idea to at least not object excessively vigorously. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/6e9424f8/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
Ben, With all good intentions, I don't buy your arguments. Here's why. First, using CO2 multiple times is not an improvement unless it is replaces CO2 that would have been otherwise generated. For example, using CO2 from power plant emissions in fracking doesn't help unless fracking has to use CO2 and the only other way would be to produce CO2 specifically for fracking. Otherwise, at the end of the process, more CO2 has been added to the atmosphere. This is very different from biofuels, where CO2 is captured by the biomass and then rereleased - net zero CO2 added to atmosphere. Second, CO2 can't be converted into fuel (liquid or not) without using energy. If you use energy to do so, one case would be biofuels. Anecdotally, regarding converting CO2 to diesel or other liquid fuel, it seems that would be less efficient than simply generating electricity to offset some other use of carbon based fuel for generating electricity. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 21-Dec-14 11:12:14 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars. On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Of course, if the CO2 is ultimately added to oil, then doesn't the CO2 eventually return to the atmosphere during refining or usage? Unless the CO2 is pumped back into the ground to stay, it's going to wind up in the atmosphere. However, if the CO2 can be used multiple times before it winds up in the atmosphere, that's definitely an improvement. One rather reasonable way to transition to an electrically-powered transportation system would be to generate electricity with coal to power EVs, capture the CO2 released from the coal at the smokestack, and then use solar and wind power to turn that CO2 into hydrocarbon fuels for vehicles with internal combustion engines. The overall result is to significantly extend the number of road miles per ton of CO2 we currently get. And, in the process, it builds out the carbon-free generating infrastructure that will eventually replace fossil fuels entirely. Also, if you have a plant that can turn compressed CO2 into liquid fuels...if you have surplus energy, as one would have after building enough solar generating capacity, you can extract the CO2 from the atmosphere and pump the liquid fuels you make back under ground. It's not unreasonable to suggest that, a couple centuries from now, if we were serious about it, we could thereby have returned atmospheric CO2 levels to those before the Industrial Revolution. I don't like coal...but I'm careful to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If significant progress is made in the right direction, it's a good idea to at least not object excessively vigorously. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 21, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For example, using CO2 from power plant emissions in fracking doesn't help unless fracking has to use CO2 and the only other way would be to produce CO2 specifically for fracking. That's why I didn't use fracking as an example. And, best I know, most commercial CO2 already comes from power plant emissions, so that's the CO2 that's already being used in the mining industry. Second, CO2 can't be converted into fuel (liquid or not) without using energy. That's why I explicitly used the example of energy input from solar and wind to turn the CO2 into liquid fuels. Anecdotally, regarding converting CO2 to diesel or other liquid fuel, it seems that would be less efficient than simply generating electricity to offset some other use of carbon based fuel for generating electricity. Yes...but only if you've already got the electric vehicle and associated infrastructure. Which of these options would you prefer? * A long-haul diesel truck powered by Saudi Arabian crude oil that costs $4 / gallon to refuel. * A long-haul diesel truck powered by oil refined from syngas made with solar electricity from CO2 emissions captured from an existing coal-fired power plant that costs $10 / gallon to refuel. * A short-haul electric truck that costs twice as much as the diesel variants and has a fraction of the range and load capacity that costs the equivalent of $0.50 / gallon to recharge. Now, there are certainly use cases today where the electric version wins...but only a small minority. And, equally certainly, no business today is going to go for the syngas-to-diesel version, save as part of a research project. However, we're not that far away from a time when the Saudi diesel is going to cost $8 / gallon and the syngas diesel $7 / gallon, at which point every business is going to prefer the syngas as a no-brainer. And that time is going to come before some trucks on the road today reach their useful end of life, as well as before we've got batteries that are at a price / performance parity with the diesel tank. During that transition period, doing double duty with that CO2 is going to make a lot of sense, _and_ it's much environmentally superior to what we're doing today. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/3c642337/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
Ben, It doesn't matter how many times you reuse the CO2 before putting it into the atmosphere. If it goes into the atmosphere, you no longer have zero net gain. How do you see reusing the CO2 improving the picture? And second, as I said, I'd rather use solar or wind to directly generate electricity, not to generate synfuels. The electricity doesn't need to be used by an EV; it only needs to displace electricity generated from fossil fuels. So, I wouldn't choose any of your options. I'd simply choose putting more electricity on the grid or directly to users. Why waste some of the energy to produce fuel when we already have a direct demand to replace electricity generated from fossil fuels? Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 21-Dec-14 11:44:49 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars. On Dec 21, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For example, using CO2 from power plant emissions in fracking doesn't help unless fracking has to use CO2 and the only other way would be to produce CO2 specifically for fracking. That's why I didn't use fracking as an example. And, best I know, most commercial CO2 already comes from power plant emissions, so that's the CO2 that's already being used in the mining industry. Second, CO2 can't be converted into fuel (liquid or not) without using energy. That's why I explicitly used the example of energy input from solar and wind to turn the CO2 into liquid fuels. Anecdotally, regarding converting CO2 to diesel or other liquid fuel, it seems that would be less efficient than simply generating electricity to offset some other use of carbon based fuel for generating electricity. Yes...but only if you've already got the electric vehicle and associated infrastructure. Which of these options would you prefer? * A long-haul diesel truck powered by Saudi Arabian crude oil that costs $4 / gallon to refuel. * A long-haul diesel truck powered by oil refined from syngas made with solar electricity from CO2 emissions captured from an existing coal-fired power plant that costs $10 / gallon to refuel. * A short-haul electric truck that costs twice as much as the diesel variants and has a fraction of the range and load capacity that costs the equivalent of $0.50 / gallon to recharge. Now, there are certainly use cases today where the electric version wins...but only a small minority. And, equally certainly, no business today is going to go for the syngas-to-diesel version, save as part of a research project. However, we're not that far away from a time when the Saudi diesel is going to cost $8 / gallon and the syngas diesel $7 / gallon, at which point every business is going to prefer the syngas as a no-brainer. And that time is going to come before some trucks on the road today reach their useful end of life, as well as before we've got batteries that are at a price / performance parity with the diesel tank. During that transition period, doing double duty with that CO2 is going to make a lot of sense, _and_ it's much environmentally superior to what we're doing today. Cheers, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV. Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment in time to make, but it should last forever. A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan. Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to deal with it again. Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? Anything else I should consider or start thinking about? Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aab757b4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:23 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: How do you see reusing the CO2 improving the picture? Because, first, the CO2 is going to get used once whether we want it to or not; and, second, if we can use that CO2 a second time, we idon't/i have to extract an equal amount from the ground. So, I wouldn't choose any of your options. I'd simply choose putting more electricity on the grid or directly to users. Then more petroleum will be pumped out of the ground and burned in internal combustion engines. Why waste some of the energy to produce fuel when we already have a direct demand to replace electricity generated from fossil fuels? The internal combustion engine isn't going away overnight. EVs are wonderful and there're all sorts of situations where they're clearly superior, but there're also a very significant number of situations where they're not even remotely theoretically capable of replacing their internal combustion counterparts -- at least, not for quite some time. So the question is whether 'tis better to pump petroleum out of the ground to burn in those engines, or to use the CO2 that's going to come out of the electricity plants (whether we want it to or not) to burn in those engines. That's the thing about hydrocarbon fuels. They're both energy sources and energy storage systems. And our civilization isn't going to function without them, at least not for quite some time. However, they don't _have_ to be a package deal. We can keep using hydrocarbons for energy storage for a while even while we get the energy from somewhere other than out of the ground. It's not the perfect solution...but the perfect can't be the enemy of the good. Again, that's the choice. The electricity stations are going to pump out CO2, and the trucks are going to burn diesel, at least for quite some time. We can either let the CO2 go to waste and pump more oil from the ground to burn in the diesel engines, or we can use the carbon from the electricity stations to burn in the diesel engines and leave the oil in the ground. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/8e6c6c18/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
-- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 21-Dec-14 12:37:44 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars. On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:23 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: How do you see reusing the CO2 improving the picture? Because, first, the CO2 is going to get used once whether we want it to or not; and, second, if we can use that CO2 a second time, we idon't/i have to extract an equal amount from the ground. PH: you're assuming that there isn't some other gas that could be used - perhaps compressed air or compressed nitrogen or whatever. Also you're assuming the CO2 has to come from a coal plant rather than simply be extracted from the atmosphere or some other source. Third, the reason we extract CO2 (actually coal) from the ground isn't to produce CO2, it's to produce energy. Even if the need (in fracking) for CO2 went away, we would still extract coal. So, I wouldn't choose any of your options. I'd simply choose putting more electricity on the grid or directly to users. Then more petroleum will be pumped out of the ground and burned in internal combustion engines. PH: true. So what? Pump petrol or dig coal. Either way, it's more efficient to directly use the electricity. When we've eliminated all the coal plants and diesel generators, then we can start doing what you say. Until then... Why waste some of the energy to produce fuel when we already have a direct demand to replace electricity generated from fossil fuels? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Sun Dec 21 12:24:58 PST 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said: I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. Actually, bad assumption. Many/Most PV Inverters don't like being fed from batteries. Throws off their attempts to find the Max Power Point. Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters. -- Try my Sensible Email package! https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: PH: you're assuming that there isn't some other gas that could be used - perhaps compressed air or compressed nitrogen or whatever. Nitrogen is its own element; there's no carbon in nitrogen. And there's less than a tenth of a percent of CO2 in air; you'd have to process a few thousand cubic feet of air just to get one cubic foot of CO2. Also you're assuming the CO2 has to come from a coal plant rather than simply be extracted from the atmosphere or some other source. Coal plant emissions are the richest common source of CO2 we have. Third, the reason we extract CO2 (actually coal) from the ground isn't to produce CO2, it's to produce energy. Even if the need (in fracking) for CO2 went away, we would still extract coal. That's exactly my point: we're going to keep mining coal, whether we like it or not. That carbon's coming out of the ground. But why throw it away after a single use? PH: true. So what? Pump petrol or dig coal. Either way, it's more efficient to directly use the electricity. Good luck fueling an airliner with electricity, or running a tractor-trailer rig across the country with electricity, or operating your combine harvester with electricity. The only way we know to do those things with electricity, even in theory, is to use the electricity to make syngas from CO2 and then refine the syngas into various petroleum distillate equivalents. Which is what I'm proposing. When we've eliminated all the coal plants and diesel generators, then we can start doing what you say. Until then... Until then, most diesel isn't used in generators to make electricity; it's used to move stuff from point A to point B. If diesel were primarily used to generate electricity, I'd be with you. But it's not, so I'm not. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/3b509d73/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:53 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Actually, bad assumption. Many/Most PV Inverters don't like being fed from batteries. Throws off their attempts to find the Max Power Point. I didn't know that. Would it matter that the batteries would mostly be feeding the inverter only when the panels aren't producing? Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters. Well, the system is already in place and has been for a few years. I've already got the inverter, in other words. Seems like, unless it's likely to do bad things, it's better to spend no money on a less-than-perfect but still-usable solution, than to spend more money to get a better version of something I already have that'll work. So...is it a matter of this not being the ideal way to design the system if starting from scratch, or of this being something that's workable at all? Or...are regular inverters so inexpensive relative to the total battery system cost that I'm being silly for not considering one as part of the cost of the system...? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/e3325647/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
There's nothing sacred about using CO2 for fracking. In fact, water is typically used now. There could be other choices of gasses. Using CO2 does produce some incentive for CO2 producers to compress and sell their waste. But it still eventually goes back into the atmosphere. It would be better to not produce the CO2 at all. But it isn't being produced for use in fracking; it's produced as a byproduct of producing energy. Go do the research on biofuels and such. I think you'll find out that it's better to use the electricity directly than to generate synfuel with it. Similar argument as to fuel cells - better to use the electricity directly than to generate hydrogen at a huge net loss. Is something not clear, here? Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 21-Dec-14 1:01:38 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars. On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: PH: you're assuming that there isn't some other gas that could be used - perhaps compressed air or compressed nitrogen or whatever. Nitrogen is its own element; there's no carbon in nitrogen. And there's less than a tenth of a percent of CO2 in air; you'd have to process a few thousand cubic feet of air just to get one cubic foot of CO2. Also you're assuming the CO2 has to come from a coal plant rather than simply be extracted from the atmosphere or some other source. Coal plant emissions are the richest common source of CO2 we have. Third, the reason we extract CO2 (actually coal) from the ground isn't to produce CO2, it's to produce energy. Even if the need (in fracking) for CO2 went away, we would still extract coal. That's exactly my point: we're going to keep mining coal, whether we like it or not. That carbon's coming out of the ground. But why throw it away after a single use? PH: true. So what? Pump petrol or dig coal. Either way, it's more efficient to directly use the electricity. Good luck fueling an airliner with electricity, or running a tractor-trailer rig across the country with electricity, or operating your combine harvester with electricity. The only way we know to do those things with electricity, even in theory, is to use the electricity to make syngas from CO2 and then refine the syngas into various petroleum distillate equivalents. Which is what I'm proposing. When we've eliminated all the coal plants and diesel generators, then we can start doing what you say. Until then... Until then, most diesel isn't used in generators to make electricity; it's used to move stuff from point A to point B. If diesel were primarily used to generate electricity, I'd be with you. But it's not, so I'm not. Cheers, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Is something not clear, here? I fear we're typing past each other, so this will be my last post on this thread that's not all that much on topic. The last word is yours, if you want it. My point, again, is that EVs, despite being theoretically ideal in general and actually ideal in a great many scenarios, aren't even an hypothetical option in the real world for huge and vital swaths of our society's infrastructure. If an electric airliner will ever be built, it won't be for several decades or more. Better to use electricity is a non-starter; electricity just simply isn't an option. As such, the choice then becomes to mine the carbon that's required to power those vehicles, or to recycle the carbon that's already going to be mined to burn in electric power plants. And, since we're going to be mining the coal anyway, I'd rather leave the petroleum in the ground than dig it up as well -- especially since we then wouldn't have to dig up additional amounts of carbon to burn in the airliners and trucks and combines and what-not. Reduce, reuse, recycle. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/6094/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On 21 Dec 2014 at 14:27, Ben Goren via EV wrote: As such, the choice then becomes to mine the carbon that's required to power those vehicles, or to recycle the carbon that's already going to be mined to burn in electric power plants. No choice here, really. You're not recycling the CO2. You have to use energy to release the carbon from it - appreciably more energy than was released when the fuel was burned. It's more efficient and cheaper to take the energy you were going to use to reduce the CO2 and use it to drive the vehicles directly, rather than making synthetic fuel with that energy. I think that's the point Peri is trying to make. Your point seems to be that we can't pry ICEVs out of the public's hands, so we should make fuel for those vehicles. However, that fuel is going to be awfully pricey because of the amount of excess (wasted) energy that goes into it. I know, you're saying get the energy from PV or wind. But that's not free energy. Every kWh comes with costs for equipment amortization and labor. There is an environmental and energy cost of producing the equipment, even if the net energy output exceeds it. Bottom line is, you can't think of CO2 as anything like a fuel. Though it may have uses in some kinds of manufacturing and processing, never forget that it's fundamentally a waste product. To get back to this report, it's the same game we've seen for years. The real picture of transportation energy use is highly complex. Because a there are so many numbers involved, it's a cinch to select only data which lead to your pre-selected conclusion. Energy gets used in all kinds of places delivering fuel to an ICEV. These include locating, drilling, and preparing the well; pumping the crude; refining it; transporting the refined product to filling stations; operating the filling stations, and so on. You could even reasonably count the energy use in the petroleum company's offices, the vehicles the wellhead workers drive ... the list goes on. Regrettably, the media gleefully pick up on these bogus analyses. They just LOVE to show that the status quo is the very best of all worlds, and that new ideas are all bunk. That's not just because media owners are stolid 1- percenters (though they are, by and large). Reporters are balloon-poppers by nature. They'll pounce on something like this. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/ef0f4fe8/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitH from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/3e099060/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 21, 2014, at 3:30 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's more efficient and cheaper to take the energy you were going to use to reduce the CO2 and use it to drive the vehicles directly, rather than making synthetic fuel with that energy. ...but only in those cases where powering the vehicle with onboard electric storage is an option. Today, that's the case for most commuter and city cars, a substantial fraction of private vehicles. And it's also the case for any fleet vehicle with a set daily range that's less than an EV's total range. But it'll likely never be the case for airliners, cargo ships, and the like, and it'll be a long time before it's the case for long-haul trucking and farm equipment. Your point seems to be that we can't pry ICEVs out of the public's hands, so we should make fuel for those vehicles. If only it were only the public's private vehicles! But the problem is much bigger than that. True, making a big dent in the problem by electrifying the domestic fleet will help free up petroleum fuels for the heavy machinery, and that's a very good thing, but it's not the whole of the solution. However, that fuel is going to be awfully pricey because of the amount of excess (wasted) energy that goes into it. Yes, it will. But petroleum-based fuel is going to soon be as pricey, and it's only going to get more pricey after that. Remember...our best wells are miles deep with wellheads a mile or two under the ocean surface, and the Canadian Frikkin' Tar Sands are now economical! Regrettably, the media gleefully pick up on these bogus analyses. Oh, no doubt. This one doesn't even pass the sniff test. 95% of an EV is identical to an ICE, and, save for the battery, that remaining 5% is much simpler and cheaper in the EV. The battery, quite obviously, passes through it over its lifetime ifar/i more energy than it takes to manufacture; who here thinks it takes thousands of gallons of gasoline to manufacture a single battery? That leaves the energy itself -- and price per mile is an excellent quick-and-dirty proxy of how much carbon per mile the vehicle uses, assuming all the energy comes from carbon fuels. That ledger is so far in favor of the EV that you've got to be on the Koch Brothers's payroll to pretend anything else could tip the scales back towards the ICE. ...and that's ignoring the fact that EVs are just as happy using non-carbon sources for their electricity. If you've got enough PV panels on your roof to power both your home _and_ your car, any pretense that you're polluting more than the neighbor who doesn't is so pathetically transparent that I don't think even the Koch brothers would try to put it forward. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/8b9d6259/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
What ends up better depends on the use. Efficiency of one type is not the be all, end all. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There's nothing sacred about using CO2 for fracking. In fact, water is typically used now. There could be other choices of gasses. Using CO2 does produce some incentive for CO2 producers to compress and sell their waste. But it still eventually goes back into the atmosphere. It would be better to not produce the CO2 at all. But it isn't being produced for use in fracking; it's produced as a byproduct of producing energy. Go do the research on biofuels and such. I think you'll find out that it's better to use the electricity directly than to generate synfuel with it. Similar argument as to fuel cells - better to use the electricity directly than to generate hydrogen at a huge net loss. Is something not clear, here? Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 21-Dec-14 1:01:38 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars. On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: PH: you're assuming that there isn't some other gas that could be used - perhaps compressed air or compressed nitrogen or whatever. Nitrogen is its own element; there's no carbon in nitrogen. And there's less than a tenth of a percent of CO2 in air; you'd have to process a few thousand cubic feet of air just to get one cubic foot of CO2. Also you're assuming the CO2 has to come from a coal plant rather than simply be extracted from the atmosphere or some other source. Coal plant emissions are the richest common source of CO2 we have. Third, the reason we extract CO2 (actually coal) from the ground isn't to produce CO2, it's to produce energy. Even if the need (in fracking) for CO2 went away, we would still extract coal. That's exactly my point: we're going to keep mining coal, whether we like it or not. That carbon's coming out of the ground. But why throw it away after a single use? PH: true. So what? Pump petrol or dig coal. Either way, it's more efficient to directly use the electricity. Good luck fueling an airliner with electricity, or running a tractor-trailer rig across the country with electricity, or operating your combine harvester with electricity. The only way we know to do those things with electricity, even in theory, is to use the electricity to make syngas from CO2 and then refine the syngas into various petroleum distillate equivalents. Which is what I'm proposing. When we've eliminated all the coal plants and diesel generators, then we can start doing what you say. Until then... Until then, most diesel isn't used in generators to make electricity; it's used to move stuff from point A to point B. If diesel were primarily used to generate electricity, I'd be with you. But it's not, so I'm not. Cheers, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/ef0f4fe8/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
Eva and I just bought a 2012 Leaf with 16K miles on it for a little over $15k (after CO state incentives.) About the same cost as the components for doing a conversion, but you end up with a _much_ nicer car than you could ever think of building yourself. Plus, you are spared a year's work of doing the build. We were convinced that now is the time to buy by Steve and Dee West in New Zealand during our recent visit. We went to Green Eyed Motors in Boulder to buy our Leaf. They very cleverly only sell used EVs that they purchase from out of state, and never titled in Colorado. They thus qualify for the full Colorado tax credit. The liked us, so they even threw in a wall charger. (Usually ~$400.) Very knowledgeable folks that were a pleasure to buy a car from. http://www.greeneyedmotors.com What we were blown away by is the sheer number of charging stations that are now available. There are over a hundred in the Denver area alone! https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point Most of them are free. You simply sign up for ChargePoint and tap the charger with your ChargePoint card. Tried it out for the first time today at Beau Jo's Pizza. Had a wonderful meal while my car charged for free. You can ask the car navigation system where the nearest charging station is, check using your phone to see whether or not it is in use, reserve it, and the nav. will lead you right to it. Once you are plugged in, the Leaf sends you messages on your smart phone, like charge complete. You can then tell it to turn on the climate control or ask for a status update using your smart phone. A _lot_ has changed in the short time (17 years?) I have been on the EVDL. Who would have thought then that you could buy an OEM EV at a reasonable price that would have 80+ miles of real-world range, (with heat!) and that there would be a whole network of chargers to plug into? You can visit out Facebook Fan page to read about our Leaf, our NZ trip, and our EV land speed racing: https://www.facebook.com/killacycle No need to be a facebook member to look at our fan page. Just ignore the annoying sign-in request by pressing escape or clicking cancel. Bill Eva ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.)
What about the nasty coal ash that is typically left over when they burn coal. Great piles/pools of it are stored forever it seems next to coal fired plants. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 4:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Thanks! It looks like they were going to get their CO2 sequestration equipment from Htcenergy.com. Found nothing about criteria pollutant emissions. I suspect that the marketing of this project led Roland to believe that it was a zero emission project, when this was not the case. Sent from my iPhone ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.)
In Thailand they stick the waste back in the strip mine bury it and plant rubber trees Dennis Berube Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone div Original message /divdivFrom: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org /divdivDate:12/22/2014 7:18 AM (GMT+07:00) /divdivTo: Mark Abramowitz ma...@enviropolicy.com, Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org /divdivSubject: [EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.) /divdiv /divWhat about the nasty coal ash that is typically left over when they burn coal. Great piles/pools of it are stored forever it seems next to coal fired plants. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 4:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Thanks! It looks like they were going to get their CO2 sequestration equipment from Htcenergy.com. Found nothing about criteria pollutant emissions. I suspect that the marketing of this project led Roland to believe that it was a zero emission project, when this was not the case. Sent from my iPhone ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/c0c4637d/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
Many solar inverters can be (user) configured to do different types of optimization, so they can be adapted to different solar panels and even different inputs (wind, battery bank) but I did not see which inverter you use, so it is not possible to say if *your* inverter can handle batteries as a source. Some (cheap) PV optimizers short-circuit the panel when they do not need the power from it. Obviously that is a bad idea when using a battery as the source instead of a solar panel. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 1:08 PM To: John Lussmyer; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:53 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Actually, bad assumption. Many/Most PV Inverters don't like being fed from batteries. Throws off their attempts to find the Max Power Point. I didn't know that. Would it matter that the batteries would mostly be feeding the inverter only when the panels aren't producing? Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters. Well, the system is already in place and has been for a few years. I've already got the inverter, in other words. Seems like, unless it's likely to do bad things, it's better to spend no money on a less-than-perfect but still-usable solution, than to spend more money to get a better version of something I already have that'll work. So...is it a matter of this not being the ideal way to design the system if starting from scratch, or of this being something that's workable at all? Or...are regular inverters so inexpensive relative to the total battery system cost that I'm being silly for not considering one as part of the cost of the system...? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/e332 5647/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
...@yahoogroups.commailto:sf...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:36 AM Subject: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars. Report is titled: Life cycle air quality impacts of conventional andalternative light-duty transportation in theUnited States It seems the main stream press has taken this to task citing the PNAS report that EV's cars can pollute more than gas cars. Thus making the case for EVs more difficult to defend. What I'm not sure is the report did not take into consideration I believe is the amount of electricity to make the fuel. This single fact I think would significantly alter the report to favor EV cars over gas. Of course their many of other reasons to drive EV's over ICE gas cars. Some major news outlets and even my local news station KPIX TV started citing a new report http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitH from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline%3Chttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel. Danny Ames -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm%3Chttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141220/43ea9c59/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org%3Chttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA%3Chttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/af799040/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/ef0f4fe8/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/ef0f4fe8/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/603060a2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.)
I really don't have any information about the proposed project, including plans for dealing with coal ash. But FYI, I think I saw a headline this past week (or maybe heard it from an EPA staffer) that new regs on coal ash disposal had just been, or were about to be released. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 21, 2014, at 4:18 PM, Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com wrote: What about the nasty coal ash that is typically left over when they burn coal. Great piles/pools of it are stored forever it seems next to coal fired plants. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 4:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Thanks! It looks like they were going to get their CO2 sequestration equipment from Htcenergy.com. Found nothing about criteria pollutant emissions. I suspect that the marketing of this project led Roland to believe that it was a zero emission project, when this was not the case. Sent from my iPhone ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] construction grade portable power
I'm looking for a lion or life based portable power pack with 120 volt invertor. Be able to 6.5 amp or more. I maybe also be intrested in used PPP. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] construction grade portable power
On 21 Dec 2014 at 18:42, test model via EV wrote: I'm looking for a lion or life based portable power pack with 120 volt invertor. This subject isn't really EV related. However, a simple web search produces several hits. Just type lithium ac power pack into your favorite search engine. Many of them seem to be intended for photographers' and videographers' lights. I see output capacities from 300w to 2000w. They're not cheap, but not as pricey as I expected. Perhaps you could find an inverter you could connect to your EV's traction battery. Or, you might fit your EV with a more robust DC:DC converter, and buy a 12v inverter. This latter method would be less efficient, but almost certainly cheaper. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Fuse blew, not sure why.
I got stranded because a fuse blew in my battery box that effectively disconnected the DC to my charger. My EV is a US Electricar S10 pickup with 3 phase AC controller. System voltage ~320VDC. I have a contactor in the battery box that supplies pack voltage to the Manzanita PFC40 charger, a 3kW resistance water heater and a Masterflux BLDC A/C compressor controller. Each of the 3 units have their own separate fuse built in. The line is fused before the contactor by an A50QS60 500VDC 60A semiconductor fuse. The fuse never sees more than 30A continuous, usually much less. The only downside to this arraingment is that the charger and BLDC controller always have pack voltage on them when driving or charging. The fuse has been in service for about 2 years. Could the capacitor inrush current of the charger and BLDC controller, every time the contactor energizes to drive or charge, have caused the fuse to gradually fail? Wouldn't the local lower value fuses have blown first? I don't think the Manzanita chargers have a lot of capacitance on the output and the BLDC controller has a few fairly small electrolytics on the input. What say the group? Thanks, Al ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fuse blew, not sure why.
Did you check that there was no short? Most cases, an isolation fault will be reported when something (like the back of the board holding the fuses) gets wet, which would happen before a dead short that would blow the fuse. Capacitance that causes an inrush can certainly be an issue, though I would be worried about the caps themselves, if it is able to blow a 60A fuse! Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Al via EV Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 8:16 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: [EVDL] Fuse blew, not sure why. I got stranded because a fuse blew in my battery box that effectively disconnected the DC to my charger. My EV is a US Electricar S10 pickup with 3 phase AC controller. System voltage ~320VDC. I have a contactor in the battery box that supplies pack voltage to the Manzanita PFC40 charger, a 3kW resistance water heater and a Masterflux BLDC A/C compressor controller. Each of the 3 units have their own separate fuse built in. The line is fused before the contactor by an A50QS60 500VDC 60A semiconductor fuse. The fuse never sees more than 30A continuous, usually much less. The only downside to this arraingment is that the charger and BLDC controller always have pack voltage on them when driving or charging. The fuse has been in service for about 2 years. Could the capacitor inrush current of the charger and BLDC controller, every time the contactor energizes to drive or charge, have caused the fuse to gradually fail? Wouldn't the local lower value fuses have blown first? I don't think the Manzanita chargers have a lot of capacitance on the output and the BLDC controller has a few fairly small electrolytics on the input. What say the group? Thanks, Al ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
Hi Chris, It is really nice just the way it is. Plenty of pep. It handles quite well. Can't think of a thing I might change. Perhaps if there is some aftermarket upgrade to make the charger bigger, I might consider doing that. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 6:02 PM, Chris Meier wrote: Any plans or thoughts to modify? ;-) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
It is a 2012 SL model, so yes, it does have the L3 Chademo fast charge port. Know of any nifty hacks for connecting my existing PFC-50 up to the L3 charging port? That would cut my charge time almost in half, if someone has figured out how to do it. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 11:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: Does it have the L3 Chademo inlet? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 9:55 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-) Hi Chris, It is really nice just the way it is. Plenty of pep. It handles quite well. Can't think of a thing I might change. Perhaps if there is some aftermarket upgrade to make the charger bigger, I might consider doing that. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 6:02 PM, Chris Meier wrote: Any plans or thoughts to modify? ;-) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
