Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi
From: Peri Hartman >I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had >tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle. >That's not a good way for a startup to survive. Selling into to the >masses will be a low profit cut throat market. I think that time is >coming for Tesla, but not here yet. Little room for mistakes, high >volume required, and ICE functionality. > >The last raises eye brows, I know. But you aren't going to change the >public attitude. I feel much the same way. Tesla had enough money that they *could* have produced an inexpensive EV first; and maybe even sell a lot of them. But they wouldn't have made money; and worse, they wouldn't have been able to attract investors. Without investors, I doubt they could have run the company at a loss for long enough to become profitable. And, though I'd like to see it happen faster, Tesla is slowly getting the prices down and producing cheaper EVs. So, I wish them all the luck in the world. They deserve it; and more importantly, it's likely the automakers wouldn't be offering EVs in the US if Tesla hadn't shamed them into it! Lee Hart -- Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James -- Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi
I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle. That's not a good way for a startup to survive. Selling into to the masses will be a low profit cut throat market. I think that time is coming for Tesla, but not here yet. Little room for mistakes, high volume required, and ICE functionality. The last raises eye brows, I know. But you aren't going to change the public attitude. Peri << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "EVDL Administrator" Sent: 24-Jul-20 8:18:55 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi On 24 Jul 2020 at 12:39, Willie via EV wrote: I continue to be amused Says the guy who, if I'm not mistake, has multiple Teslas. :-\ Lots of us can't even afford ONE Tesla, and we are not so amused. So it's heartening to read that Tesla is finally getting on track to an affordable EV, though personally I'd rather they made it somewhere other than Xi Jinping's China. However, if they're going to play to that market, they have some catching up to do. Volkswagen is forging Chinese automaker partnerships so fast I can barely follow them - FAW, SAIC, JAC. They're still building Chinese factories, but even from their German factories, the ID.3 is well ahead of the Tesla 3 in affordability. When they get the VW/JAC Sol E20X (under US$20k, 50kWh battery, 400km range) in production in China, they'll be hard to beat. For now, Renault is the outside automaker arguably out in front in China with the K-ZE already on the road there (under US$10k, 27kWh battery, 250km range). Renault also has a significant advantage in being allowed to use their own name in China. A tarted-up version of the K-ZE will reach Europe in about a year, to be sold as the Dacia Spring. The Renault Zoe was Europe's #1 selling EV in 2020-H1. Renault has a shot at owning the low end too, if they give the Spring enough range and price it aggressively. But I'm afraid that they'll hobble it, so it doesn't steal sales from Zoe. Either way, it appears to me that some of the traditional automakers are already several meters ahead of Tesla in the cheap and cheerful Chinese EV race. If Tesla stumbles, the big guys have a good shot at lapping them in Asia and Europe, where the future of EVs lies. Owning the US EV market won't be much of a consolation prize for Tesla, with our economy sliding into the dumpster. I hope they nail it. I'll be watching for a $25k Tesla. I'm not so sure I'd actually buy one, not that anyone cares, but I mIght be amused. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take. -- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi
On 24 Jul 2020 at 18:34, paul dove via EV wrote: > .It has a 54KWh battery. What's the Leaf have? 24... 30 at any rate Leaf hasn't been that feeble in quite a while. It's 62kWh (226mi EPA) in the Plus version ($40k), 40kWh (149mi EPA) in the base version ($31.6k). >From what I read online, those prices are routinely discounted at dealers. The Leaf's sleeker European sister, Renault Zoe, has a 52kWh battery and a base MSRP of around 32k euros (~9k less if you lease the battery). WLTP range 400+km. At least in France, it's usually dealer-discounted to around 25k euros ($28.5k) or less. How much of a dealer discount below MSRP did you get on your Tesla? :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you aren't sure whether you can do this, just try it. The worst thing that can happen is that your computer could explode. -- GIMP Documentation = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi
On 24 Jul 2020 at 12:39, Willie via EV wrote: > I continue to be amused Says the guy who, if I'm not mistake, has multiple Teslas. :-\ Lots of us can't even afford ONE Tesla, and we are not so amused. So it's heartening to read that Tesla is finally getting on track to an affordable EV, though personally I'd rather they made it somewhere other than Xi Jinping's China. However, if they're going to play to that market, they have some catching up to do. Volkswagen is forging Chinese automaker partnerships so fast I can barely follow them - FAW, SAIC, JAC. They're still building Chinese factories, but even from their German factories, the ID.3 is well ahead of the Tesla 3 in affordability. When they get the VW/JAC Sol E20X (under US$20k, 50kWh battery, 400km range) in production in China, they'll be hard to beat. For now, Renault is the outside automaker arguably out in front in China with the K-ZE already on the road there (under US$10k, 27kWh battery, 250km range). Renault also has a significant advantage in being allowed to use their own name in China. A tarted-up version of the K-ZE will reach Europe in about a year, to be sold as the Dacia Spring. The Renault Zoe was Europe's #1 selling EV in 2020-H1. Renault has a shot at owning the low end too, if they give the Spring enough range and price it aggressively. But I'm afraid that they'll hobble it, so it doesn't steal sales from Zoe. Either way, it appears to me that some of the traditional automakers are already several meters ahead of Tesla in the cheap and cheerful Chinese EV race. If Tesla stumbles, the big guys have a good shot at lapping them in Asia and Europe, where the future of EVs lies. Owning the US EV market won't be much of a consolation prize for Tesla, with our economy sliding into the dumpster. I hope they nail it. I'll be watching for a $25k Tesla. I'm not so sure I'd actually buy one, not that anyone cares, but I mIght be amused. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take. -- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.
Re safety. My original solar prius used 15 series panels to get to 240 VDC to parallel into the HV DC system. Worked great... BUT after a few years, I noticed that while washing the car in the sun, I'd get little shocks each time my sponge went over the edge between adjacent fiberglass solar panels. THey have been on the car for 13 years and "edge effects" show weather slowly weep[ing into the edges of the panels. Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 5:07 PM jkenny23 via EV wrote: > I think what you're looking for is the Lightyear One. > https://lightyear.one/ > > A modern, amazingly efficient EV, with solar roof. But since it's so niche, > as described before, it will cost you around $170k :) > > As for the original question of "faking out EV to accept solar input while > driving" the easiest way of doing this is just connecting some wires > directly to the HV battery +/-, with contactors (positive and negative), > fuses (positive and negative), and your 400VDC CC-CV MPPT solar charge > controller (likely custom required) with reverse current blocking, to your > custom roof mounted solar panel. The car won't know any different, other > than you're driving marginally more efficiently than normal. All > precautions > about dealing with 400VDC at lethal power levels (not just to you, but > power > levels that can literally explode metal if shorted) apply. > > Doesn't sound so easy now does it. Budget 6 months+ with lots of debug > afterwards, and high likelihood of blowing up some electronics. All so you > can get 13mi of range per day from the sun, on your car. There's a reason > Elon and others think this is a dumb idea; just put solar panels on the > roof > of your house, carport, etc. and get 50% higher utilization of those same > solar panels/cells, and power your house too when the car is full or > absent. > > -- > Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/ > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200724/6ac609f2/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.
The naysayers can always argue against anything that doesn't fit the usual paradigm of heavy = safe. But if you put the solar on your roof you are limited to that area and you can't gain energy while driving. What gives me hope instantly is 4 generations of this vehicle have be built and were winners. The last two generations were reduced in KW both in battery and panels because of the outstanding performance during the challenge. I suspect the basic design might be adopted as a van. Possibly a Van could be engineered to be light enough and big enough for the energy collected to be meaningful. The Stella vehicles can charge in 10 hours . They could gain 200 miles a day just sitting in one place then driven another 200 miles again and again. Or they could drive 45 mph most of the day infinitely. The other thing that gives me hope is every time I talk to one of my Tesla company friends(engineers)about the possibility of a solar car they clam up like their job was in danger. Musk has never talked about the practical aspects of producing a truly solar vehicle. Tesla and Musk are averse about their future projects. Talk about disruption. Imagine if a practical solar car could be built? I want one. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200724/f16856bd/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.
jkenny23 via EV wrote: I think what you're looking for is the Lightyear One. https://lightyear.one/ A modern, amazingly efficient EV, with solar roof. But since it's so niche, as described before, it will cost you around $170k :) Maybe more... or maybe less. It all depends on how many they can sell. As for the original question of "faking out EV to accept solar input while driving" the easiest way of doing this is just connecting some wires directly to the HV battery +/-, with contactors (positive and negative), fuses (positive and negative), and your 400VDC CC-CV MPPT solar charge controller (likely custom required) with reverse current blocking, to your custom roof mounted solar panel. I don't think this would be easy; nor would it be safe. Too much risk of a shock hazard, since you'd have the pack's high voltage on the exterior panels. I think an easier and safer approach would be to use low-voltage PV cells or panels to charge the 12v battery with an MPPT controller. It will get the most out of the panels, and also avoid overcharging the battery. These are common, commercially available products. Then, use an isolated 12vdc inverter to step this up to charge the HVDC pack. This could be as simple as a standard 120vac inverter, with a voltage doubler or tripler on its output to convert it to DC and step it up to charge the pack. With the right choice of components, its voltage can be chosen to make it impossible to overcharge the pack. Still, it's a niche solution. It would be better to leave the PV panels at home, if you live in a place where that's possible. Lee Hart -- If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find: - something to do - something to look forward to - someone to love - someone to take good care of - and misbehave, just a little -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.
I think what you're looking for is the Lightyear One. https://lightyear.one/ A modern, amazingly efficient EV, with solar roof. But since it's so niche, as described before, it will cost you around $170k :) As for the original question of "faking out EV to accept solar input while driving" the easiest way of doing this is just connecting some wires directly to the HV battery +/-, with contactors (positive and negative), fuses (positive and negative), and your 400VDC CC-CV MPPT solar charge controller (likely custom required) with reverse current blocking, to your custom roof mounted solar panel. The car won't know any different, other than you're driving marginally more efficiently than normal. All precautions about dealing with 400VDC at lethal power levels (not just to you, but power levels that can literally explode metal if shorted) apply. Doesn't sound so easy now does it. Budget 6 months+ with lots of debug afterwards, and high likelihood of blowing up some electronics. All so you can get 13mi of range per day from the sun, on your car. There's a reason Elon and others think this is a dumb idea; just put solar panels on the roof of your house, carport, etc. and get 50% higher utilization of those same solar panels/cells, and power your house too when the car is full or absent. -- Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi
That is not the least of what is wrong with there overpriced Tesla theories.It has a 54KWh battery. What's the Leaf have? 24... 30 at any rate Tesla chose to compete with ICE specs.Better choice. On Friday, July 24, 2020, 12:39:53 PM CDT, Willie via EV wrote: On 7/21/20 3:11 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote: > We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30, 2016 > and received on May, 2019. I haven't before seen testimony that anyone had actually purchased a $35k Tesla. Thanks for confirming. I continue to be amused by those here that think Tesla should suicide by early chasing of the low end and low margin segment of the market. I am thankful that Tesla chose to survive. It is all obvious and previously stated, but this is a clear statement of Tesla's path, past and future: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-compact-van-ice-extinction/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200724/d085969d/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi
On 7/21/20 3:11 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote: We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30, 2016 and received on May, 2019. I haven't before seen testimony that anyone had actually purchased a $35k Tesla. Thanks for confirming. I continue to be amused by those here that think Tesla should suicide by early chasing of the low end and low margin segment of the market. I am thankful that Tesla chose to survive. It is all obvious and previously stated, but this is a clear statement of Tesla's path, past and future: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-compact-van-ice-extinction/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
