Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I am sure this practice is not followed everywhere,
in a previous building if I plugged my EV in to charge at level 1
from a 120V outlet in the front of the building, the actual outlet 
voltage dropped from 120V to 105V (measured at the duplex contacts) 
and my underrated extension cord added another 15V drop so I would 
only get 90V at the charger, so this 1400W charger was drawing 
over 15A in an attempt to still get the power through that 1 + 1 Ohm 
voltage drop that was passing for wiring!
Moved the car around the back plugged into an outlet near the 
transformer serving the building and got close to 120V and less
than 12A current draw...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roland via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 4:08 PM
To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC 
Quick-Charging Matter

   
You can install a 15 or 20 amp 125 volt rated receptacle on a 20 amp circuit 
breaker.  The continuous rated ampere load is 12 amps on the 15 amp receptacle 
and 16 amps on the 20 amp receptacle which is 80% of the device and/or circuit 
breaker. 

 

For both 15 and 20 amp receptacles, the minimum size wire is No. 12 AWG rated 
at 60 C.  for a length of circuit of 42 feet.  A higher temperature rated wire 
in the 90 C to 115 C range, we run up to 50 feet. The volt drop shall not go 
below 1% for lighting and up to 3% for power circuits. 

 

If the circuit distance to 20 amp receptacle is over 50 feet up to 70 feet 
total, we will a 30 amp rated wire, a No. 10 AWG 90 C. rated copper wire for 
the first 50 feet and 20 amp rated wire, a No. 12 AWG 90 C. rated copper for 
the next 20 feet or you could run the 30 amp rated wire for the entire length 
of 70 feet for a maximum of 16 amp load on a 20 amp circuit breaker. 

 

You have to calculated the maximum voltage drop of a wire which is between 1 to 
3 percent of the incoming unloaded voltage at the circuit breaker to the actual 
voltage at the load end. 

 

A electrical worker say he has install a 30 amp circuit, may only mean that the 
wire size is rated for 24 amps at 50 foot circuit run or 16 amps at a 70 foot 
run for a 1 percent voltage drop. 

 

Roland   


- Original Message - 

From: Ben Goren via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:43 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC 
Quick-Charging Matter



On Oct 20, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

> True.  I actually meant I've only seen 20A outlets in commercial 
> installations.  My house is wired with 20A circuits and 15A outlets.

Hmmm...I may well be confused.

I just checked my panel.

Most of the regular outlets have 15A breakers. The one for the shop that I 
thought was 30A is 20A. The patio has a 30A breaker. Appliances have 20A, 30A, 
or 50A breakers as necessary.

I know I've got unconnected wire going to an empty box ready for at least a 30A 
circuit at the outside corner where I'll be plugging in the EV...I had an 
electrician string that when he was doing some other work and before the attic 
insulation was blown in

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 21, 2015, at 4:08 PM, Roland  wrote:

> A electrical worker say he has install a 30 amp circuit, may only mean that 
> the wire size is rated for 24 amps at 50 foot circuit run or 16 amps at a 70 
> foot run for a 1 percent voltage drop.

I don't remember the actual gauge wire he ran -- this was a few years ago -- 
but I do remember that there was a calculation based on current and length and 
the rest, and that the cost of the wire was significant.

I'll find out when I finally have an outlet hooked up to the connectionless box 
he put in, but I'm reasonably confident I won't be cursing him when that time 
comes.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Roland via EV]

   
You can install a 15 or 20 amp 125 volt rated receptacle on a 20 amp circuit 
breaker.  The continuous rated ampere load is 12 amps on the 15 amp receptacle 
and 16 amps on the 20 amp receptacle which is 80% of the device and/or circuit 
breaker. 

 

For both 15 and 20 amp receptacles, the minimum size wire is No. 12 AWG rated 
at 60 C.  for a length of circuit of 42 feet.  A higher temperature rated wire 
in the 90 C to 115 C range, we run up to 50 feet. The volt drop shall not go 
below 1% for lighting and up to 3% for power circuits. 

 

If the circuit distance to 20 amp receptacle is over 50 feet up to 70 feet 
total, we will a 30 amp rated wire, a No. 10 AWG 90 C. rated copper wire for 
the first 50 feet and 20 amp rated wire, a No. 12 AWG 90 C. rated copper for 
the next 20 feet or you could run the 30 amp rated wire for the entire length 
of 70 feet for a maximum of 16 amp load on a 20 amp circuit breaker. 

 

You have to calculated the maximum voltage drop of a wire which is between 1 to 
3 percent of the incoming unloaded voltage at the circuit breaker to the actual 
voltage at the load end. 

 

A electrical worker say he has install a 30 amp circuit, may only mean that the 
wire size is rated for 24 amps at 50 foot circuit run or 16 amps at a 70 foot 
run for a 1 percent voltage drop. 

 

Roland   


- Original Message - 

From: Ben Goren via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:43 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC 
Quick-Charging Matter



On Oct 20, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

> True.  I actually meant I've only seen 20A outlets in commercial 
> installations.  My house is wired with 20A circuits and 15A outlets.

Hmmm...I may well be confused.

I just checked my panel.

Most of the regular outlets have 15A breakers. The one for the shop that I 
thought was 30A is 20A. The patio has a 30A breaker. Appliances have 20A, 30A, 
or 50A breakers as necessary.

I know I've got unconnected wire going to an empty box ready for at least a 30A 
circuit at the outside corner where I'll be plugging in the EV...I had an 
electrician string that when he was doing some other work and before the attic 
insulation was blown in

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Cor van de Water via EV]

In residences it is indeed uncommon to see the "cross-blade" 20A outlet
(NEMA 5-20), it is common to see the two straight blades of a NEMA 5-15 
even if wired from a 20A circuit. That is how it is in my home.
Walk into a commercial building (checking the kitchen and the cubicles
at work) it is still common to see the NEMA 5-15 but occasionally there
will be an outlet that allows either 5-15 or 5-20 plug.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC 
Quick-Charging Matter

On Oct 20, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV  wrote:

> True.  I actually meant I've only seen 20A outlets in commercial 
> installations.  My house is wired with 20A circuits and 15A outlets.

Hmmm...I may well be confused.

I just checked my panel.

Most of the regular outlets have 15A breakers. The one for the shop that I 
thought was 30A is 20A. The patio has a 30A breaker. Appliances have 20A, 30A, 
or 50A breakers as necessary.

I know I've got unconnected wire going to an empty box ready for at least a 30A 
circuit at the outside corner where I'll be plugging in the EV...I had an 
electrician string that when he was doing some other work and before the attic 
insulation was blown in

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 20, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV  wrote:

> True.  I actually meant I've only seen 20A outlets in commercial 
> installations.  My house is wired with 20A circuits and 15A outlets.

Hmmm...I may well be confused.

I just checked my panel.

Most of the regular outlets have 15A breakers. The one for the shop that I 
thought was 30A is 20A. The patio has a 30A breaker. Appliances have 20A, 30A, 
or 50A breakers as necessary.

I know I've got unconnected wire going to an empty box ready for at least a 30A 
circuit at the outside corner where I'll be plugging in the EV...I had an 
electrician string that when he was doing some other work and before the attic 
insulation was blown in

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Oct 2015 at 22:41, SLPinfo.org via EV wrote:

> They have been debating since day 1 whether to add a 220v outlet in their
> garage. The debate is because it would be an expensive install (awkward
> placement of breaker box, not in garage).

That can make a HUGE difference.  For my current house, getting 240v to the 
detached garage involved trenching for direct burial cable and installing a 
60a subpanel.  I probably couldn't have managed the cost if I'd had to hire 
a pro to do it.  Fortunately, I was able to do the work myself.

> they realized recently that they really don't need it.  110v charging
> seems to work just fine for their needs. 

Bravo!  It's good to hear that they're able to make it work that way.  I 
suspect that many people have the idea that they need expensive and complex 
wiring to use an EV, just because they've read that, and there are times 
that it's just not necessary.

Whether any given person or family can get by on low power charging depends 
on many factors.  How far do they drive daily?  How regular is that routine? 
 Are they always at home in the evening, with the EV charging, or do they go 
out often?  If the EV only charges when they're sleeping, how long is that - 
8 hours, 6, 5?  Is a second vehicle always available in case they need to 
make a trip when the EV isn't sufficiently charged?  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

True.  I actually meant I've only seen 20A outlets in commercial installations. 
 My house is wired with 20A circuits and 15A outlets.

On October 20, 2015 10:36:44 PM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
>On 20 Oct 2015 at 19:34, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:
>
>>  I've seen 20A circuits, but only in commercial installations. 
>
>You'll see plenty of 20a branch circuits in homes - all newer homes are
>
>wired this way - but 20a receptacles on them are indeed pretty rare.  
>
>This is because the code has an exception allowing cheaper 15a-rated 
>receptacles on a 20a branch circuit, as long as there's more than one
>outlet 
>on the circuit.  If there's only one receptacle on the circuit, it must
>be a 
>20a-rated recept.  (Code experts argue over whether a duplex receptacle
>
>counts as one or two outlets.)
>
>IIRC, the code ALLOWS but doesn't REQUIRE 20a-rated receptacles on a 
>multiple-receptacle 20a branch circuit.  I installed 120v 20a recepts
>on the 
>branch circuit in my garage to allow for better EV charging, though I'm
>not 
>100% convinced that (once you're beyond the 50 cent bargain bin junk 
>receptacles) there's much difference between the guts of a 15a-rated
>recept 
>and those of a 20-a rated recept.
>
>One more note about this.  Because code limits sustained load on a
>branch 
>circuit to 80% of its maximum, you can charge at no more than 1920
>Watts 
>from a 120v 20a residential branch circuit.  If your EV gets 250 Wh/mi
>and 
>has a typical 80% charging efficiency, you gain just over 6 miles of
>range 
>per hour of charging.  If you sleep 8 hours and charge while you sleep,
>
>that's 48 miles you can drive per day.
>
>It could be more than that, since some switchmode chargers do better
>than 
>80% efficiency.  Also, staying below 80% SOC increases battery charging
>
>efficiency.  But that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
>
>You're much better off going with a 240v circuit and charger.  A 240v
>20a 
>circuit gives you 3840 Watts, for over 12 miles of range per hour of 
>charging - 96 miles overnight.
>
>A 50a range / welder circuit is an even better bet, as long as your
>charger 
>has the guts to use it.  That recept allows 9.6kW charging.  At that
>rate 
>the EV described above gains over 30 miles of range for each hour of 
>charging - about 245 miles overnight.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[SLPinfo.org via EV]

David,

Some friends of mine leased their first EV (a BMW i3) a few months ago.
They have been debating since day 1 whether to add a 220v outlet in their
garage. The debate is because it would be an expensive install (awkward
placement of breaker box, not in garage).

But they realized recently that they really don't need it.  110v charging
seems to work just fine for their needs. So they won't bother with 220v.

Peter Flipsen Jr
Hillsboro, OR
On Oct 20, 2015 10:19 PM, "Cor van de Water via EV" 
wrote:

> David,
> Everyone always mentions 8 hours of charging overnight, but most commute
> cars sit much longer in the garage than that on normal weekdays, my EV
> has about 15 hours of charging time if I let it stay plugged from the
> moment I get home till I leave the next morning. So, even at the 12A rate
> from my 120V outlet (my garage outlets are on a 20A breaker in the service
> panel, but the outlets are 15A type and I am using a power strip as a
> short extension cord with on/off switch to disconnect power before
> unplugging) I am getting about 1.5kW max power so with 80% efficient
> charging this is 1.2kW into the battery pack for 15 hours is 18kWh
> which covers all that I can drive with the truck. And since I can also
> plug in at work, I can drive even more in a day if I want to.
> All from charging at level 1 which is more than 99% of my charging
> till date - until I get time to install my JuiceBox. Or more accurately,
> to install the 240V plug for my JuiceBox.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 9:37 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC
> Quick-Charging Matter
>
> On 20 Oct 2015 at 19:34, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:
>
> >  I've seen 20A circuits, but only in commercial installations.
>
> You'll see plenty of 20a branch circuits in homes - all newer homes are
> wired this way - but 20a receptacles on them are indeed pretty rare.
>
> This is because the code has an exception allowing cheaper 15a-rated
> receptacles on a 20a branch circuit, as long as there's more than one
> outlet on the circuit.  If there's only one receptacle on the circuit, it
> must be a 20a-rated recept.  (Code experts argue over whether a duplex
> receptacle counts as one or two outlets.)
>
> IIRC, the code ALLOWS but doesn't REQUIRE 20a-rated receptacles on a
> multiple-receptacle 20a branch circuit.  I installed 120v 20a recepts on
> the branch circuit in my garage to allow for better EV charging, though I'm
> not 100% convinced that (once you're beyond the 50 cent bargain bin junk
> receptacles) there's much difference between the guts of a 15a-rated
> recept and those of a 20-a rated recept.
>
> One more note about this.  Because code limits sustained load on a branch
> circuit to 80% of its maximum, you can charge at no more than 1920 Watts
> from a 120v 20a residential branch circuit.  If your EV gets 250 Wh/mi and
> has a typical 80% charging efficiency, you gain just over 6 miles of range
> per hour of charging.  If you sleep 8 hours and charge while you sleep,
> that's 48 miles you can drive per day.
>
> It could be more than that, since some switchmode chargers do better than
> 80% efficiency.  Also, staying below 80% SOC increases battery charging
> efficiency.  But that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
>
> You're much better off going with a 240v circuit and charger.  A 240v 20a
> circuit gives you 3840 Watts, for over 12 miles of range per hour of
> charging - 96 miles overnight.
>
> A 50a range / welder circuit is an even better bet, as long as your
> charger has the guts to use it.  That recept allows 9.6kW charging.  At
> that rate the EV described above gains over 30 miles of range for each hour
> of charging - about 245 miles overnight.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note:

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David,
Everyone always mentions 8 hours of charging overnight, but most commute
cars sit much longer in the garage than that on normal weekdays, my EV
has about 15 hours of charging time if I let it stay plugged from the
moment I get home till I leave the next morning. So, even at the 12A rate
from my 120V outlet (my garage outlets are on a 20A breaker in the service
panel, but the outlets are 15A type and I am using a power strip as a
short extension cord with on/off switch to disconnect power before
unplugging) I am getting about 1.5kW max power so with 80% efficient
charging this is 1.2kW into the battery pack for 15 hours is 18kWh
which covers all that I can drive with the truck. And since I can also
plug in at work, I can drive even more in a day if I want to.
All from charging at level 1 which is more than 99% of my charging
till date - until I get time to install my JuiceBox. Or more accurately,
to install the 240V plug for my JuiceBox.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via 
EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 9:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC 
Quick-Charging Matter

On 20 Oct 2015 at 19:34, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:

>  I've seen 20A circuits, but only in commercial installations. 

You'll see plenty of 20a branch circuits in homes - all newer homes are wired 
this way - but 20a receptacles on them are indeed pretty rare.  

This is because the code has an exception allowing cheaper 15a-rated 
receptacles on a 20a branch circuit, as long as there's more than one outlet on 
the circuit.  If there's only one receptacle on the circuit, it must be a 
20a-rated recept.  (Code experts argue over whether a duplex receptacle counts 
as one or two outlets.)

IIRC, the code ALLOWS but doesn't REQUIRE 20a-rated receptacles on a 
multiple-receptacle 20a branch circuit.  I installed 120v 20a recepts on the 
branch circuit in my garage to allow for better EV charging, though I'm not 
100% convinced that (once you're beyond the 50 cent bargain bin junk
receptacles) there's much difference between the guts of a 15a-rated recept and 
those of a 20-a rated recept.

One more note about this.  Because code limits sustained load on a branch 
circuit to 80% of its maximum, you can charge at no more than 1920 Watts from a 
120v 20a residential branch circuit.  If your EV gets 250 Wh/mi and has a 
typical 80% charging efficiency, you gain just over 6 miles of range per hour 
of charging.  If you sleep 8 hours and charge while you sleep, that's 48 miles 
you can drive per day.

It could be more than that, since some switchmode chargers do better than 80% 
efficiency.  Also, staying below 80% SOC increases battery charging efficiency. 
 But that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

You're much better off going with a 240v circuit and charger.  A 240v 20a 
circuit gives you 3840 Watts, for over 12 miles of range per hour of charging - 
96 miles overnight.

A 50a range / welder circuit is an even better bet, as long as your charger has 
the guts to use it.  That recept allows 9.6kW charging.  At that rate the EV 
described above gains over 30 miles of range for each hour of charging - about 
245 miles overnight.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Oct 2015 at 19:34, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:

>  I've seen 20A circuits, but only in commercial installations. 

You'll see plenty of 20a branch circuits in homes - all newer homes are 
wired this way - but 20a receptacles on them are indeed pretty rare.  

This is because the code has an exception allowing cheaper 15a-rated 
receptacles on a 20a branch circuit, as long as there's more than one outlet 
on the circuit.  If there's only one receptacle on the circuit, it must be a 
20a-rated recept.  (Code experts argue over whether a duplex receptacle 
counts as one or two outlets.)

IIRC, the code ALLOWS but doesn't REQUIRE 20a-rated receptacles on a 
multiple-receptacle 20a branch circuit.  I installed 120v 20a recepts on the 
branch circuit in my garage to allow for better EV charging, though I'm not 
100% convinced that (once you're beyond the 50 cent bargain bin junk 
receptacles) there's much difference between the guts of a 15a-rated recept 
and those of a 20-a rated recept.

One more note about this.  Because code limits sustained load on a branch 
circuit to 80% of its maximum, you can charge at no more than 1920 Watts 
from a 120v 20a residential branch circuit.  If your EV gets 250 Wh/mi and 
has a typical 80% charging efficiency, you gain just over 6 miles of range 
per hour of charging.  If you sleep 8 hours and charge while you sleep, 
that's 48 miles you can drive per day.

It could be more than that, since some switchmode chargers do better than 
80% efficiency.  Also, staying below 80% SOC increases battery charging 
efficiency.  But that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

You're much better off going with a 240v circuit and charger.  A 240v 20a 
circuit gives you 3840 Watts, for over 12 miles of range per hour of 
charging - 96 miles overnight.

A 50a range / welder circuit is an even better bet, as long as your charger 
has the guts to use it.  That recept allows 9.6kW charging.  At that rate 
the EV described above gains over 30 miles of range for each hour of 
charging - about 245 miles overnight.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Mike Beem via EV]

I have a 30 amp 120 volt outlet under my house which is used for "shore
power" for my 5th wheel RV. That is the only application I have ever seen
it used in. I run a 10 gauge 3 wire "extension cord" out to the RV.
Michael B

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV 
wrote:

> Same experience in Idaho as David's in Ohio.  The entire garage is wired
> with one circuit, using 15A outlets.  I've seen 20A circuits, but only in
> commercial installations.  I've never seen a 30A outlet that was 120V.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On October 20, 2015 1:24:45 PM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >On 20 Oct 2015 at 8:42, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> >
> >> All the garages I'm familiar with have 30A circuits. Garages
> >typically get
> >> used for power equipment like saws that need heavy draws. If there's
> >a single
> >> 30A circuit in the entire house, it'll be in the garage.
> >
> >I'm confused here.  Are you still talking 120v?  If I'm not mistaken,
> >by the
> >NEC, a 30a 120v circuit would have to be a dedicated circuit with a
> >single
> >30a (NEMA 5-30 or 6-30) receptacle on it.
> >
> >Not that that's impossible to have such a circuit, but I can't imagine
> >what
> >normal domestic purpose it would serve.  Any home appliance that
> >requires
> >that kind of power is almost always a 240v appliance.
> >
> >I've NEVER seen a 30a 120v circuit in a garage here in Ohio.  Heck, I
> >don't
> >think I recall ever seeing one in a house, either, though I have seen
> >them
> >in commercial settings.
> >
> >However, I HAVE seen countless 30a 240v dryer receptacles and 50a range
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Same experience in Idaho as David's in Ohio.  The entire garage is wired with 
one circuit, using 15A outlets.  I've seen 20A circuits, but only in commercial 
installations.  I've never seen a 30A outlet that was 120V.

Mike


On October 20, 2015 1:24:45 PM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
>On 20 Oct 2015 at 8:42, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>
>> All the garages I'm familiar with have 30A circuits. Garages
>typically get
>> used for power equipment like saws that need heavy draws. If there's
>a single
>> 30A circuit in the entire house, it'll be in the garage.
>
>I'm confused here.  Are you still talking 120v?  If I'm not mistaken,
>by the 
>NEC, a 30a 120v circuit would have to be a dedicated circuit with a
>single 
>30a (NEMA 5-30 or 6-30) receptacle on it.  
>
>Not that that's impossible to have such a circuit, but I can't imagine
>what 
>normal domestic purpose it would serve.  Any home appliance that
>requires 
>that kind of power is almost always a 240v appliance.
>
>I've NEVER seen a 30a 120v circuit in a garage here in Ohio.  Heck, I
>don't 
>think I recall ever seeing one in a house, either, though I have seen
>them 
>in commercial settings.
>
>However, I HAVE seen countless 30a 240v dryer receptacles and 50a range

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Oct 2015 at 8:42, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> All the garages I'm familiar with have 30A circuits. Garages typically get
> used for power equipment like saws that need heavy draws. If there's a single
> 30A circuit in the entire house, it'll be in the garage.

I'm confused here.  Are you still talking 120v?  If I'm not mistaken, by the 
NEC, a 30a 120v circuit would have to be a dedicated circuit with a single 
30a (NEMA 5-30 or 6-30) receptacle on it.  

Not that that's impossible to have such a circuit, but I can't imagine what 
normal domestic purpose it would serve.  Any home appliance that requires 
that kind of power is almost always a 240v appliance.

I've NEVER seen a 30a 120v circuit in a garage here in Ohio.  Heck, I don't 
think I recall ever seeing one in a house, either, though I have seen them 
in commercial settings.

However, I HAVE seen countless 30a 240v dryer receptacles and 50a range 
receptacles in homes and garages.  The latter are often used for an arc 
welder.  Maybe that's what you meant?

> Anything much older than [the Carter Administration] and it's going to
> have to be re-wired anyway to be brought up to code. 

Your building authority must be pretty strict there.  Around here, even the 
oldest houses are acceptable, no upgrades required at sale, as long as they 
met code when they were built. Heck, a guy I knew bought a house in the 
1980s; it still had the original 120v only, 2-wire service with 4 fuses in 
the panel!

Now, if you change something - even just moving a receptacle - THEN you have 
to bring that portion of the wiring up to code.  Depending on the situation, 
that can sometimes trigger a major wiring project.

FWIW, I've charged EVs at a home built many years before the Carter 
Administration (1959).  The main panel was rated 100 amps.  It had enough 
capacity to easily support an extra 240v 20a circuit.  

Even a 60a service would probably suffice for an EV if you didn't try to 
also use too many other large electric appliances (aircon, water heater, 
range, dryer).

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Peri Hartman via EV]

You're in Phoenix.  There are many cities across the country with 
apartments built before cars were around or, at least, before a family 
owned more than one car.  Couple that with dense neighborhoods where 
people may own cars but don't use them on a daily basis.  Many people 
have cars without off-street parking.


As an example, in Brooklyn NY, I have a couple friends who both own 
cars.  I can assure you that they don't have any dedicated parking.  
They usually find a place within a block or two of their apartment.  
(Clearly, they aren't using their car everyday - it's primarily for 
weekend out-of-town trips.)  If they wanted to buy an EV, they would 
essentially require a level 3 location to get charged from time to time. 
 Many people in Brooklyn (or Queens, or...) have the same situation.


I'm in Seattle,  Most houses have room for one off street parking place; 
some apartments have off street parking but, overall, mostly rely on 
on-street parking.  Many people cannot charge where they park.


Same for Portland.  Same for many cities across the US.

For us early adopters, we have charging solutions that work.  For now, 
we can ignore the denser neighborhoods and focus on getting 
home-charging installed in suburban aparments.  But the next big wave - 
consisting of urban car owners  - will be stymied if they have to rely 
on charging at home.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
To: j...@k6ccc.org
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 20-Oct-15 8:38:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter



On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Jim Walls  wrote:

 I've never lived in an apartment, but I know people who often have to 
park blocks from home because that's the closest parking.


It might be a zoning thing here, but every apartment complex in the 
Phoenix area is pretty much guaranteed to have at least one and often 
more on-site parking spots for every dwelling. Typical (but not 
universal) is one or two designated covered spots per dwelling and 
about as many uncovered spots for guests.


The same applies for commercial spaces. Designated employee spots 
sufficient for all employees, plus "enough" (based on some formula) 
spots for customers.


b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The ultimate L1 charging is a simple retractable standard 120v cord from
the car with the EVSE inside the car.  Just like a vacuum cleaner.  The
three prong 120v plug on the other end of an EVSE is indistinguishable from
the 3 prong plug on the end of a retractible cord (and the EVSSE circuitry
is inside the car) so you cannot argue that it is unsafe.  No more unsafe
than plugging in a vacuum cleaner.



See how we added a retractible cord from Home Depot to a Leaf:



http://aprs.org/charging-DIY.html



Bob, WB4aPR



*From:* Chris Tromley [mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2015 7:32 PM
*To:* Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
Quick-Charging Matter



On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
enough such public chargers.

No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
on-street parking having outlets.



​I'm getting more used to the idea of L1 charging being pretty useful, but
I have one remaining objection to it - L1 chargers.  Currently, using L1
charging means carrying your OEM EVSE with you and plugging it in.  You
can't always expect to have an outlet right at your parking spot, so you
also need an extension cord.  That's a significant inconvenience.  I
wouldn't mind it so much, but that could be enough for John Q. Public to
say, "What a pain.  I'm getting a gas car."



Not only that, but you're plugging in your OEM EVSE​



​and leaving it where anyone can walk away with it.  At ~$300​ a pop,
that's a significant risk.  I will likely end up with L1 charging where I
work, but with my i-MiEV's rear-fender charging port I can run an extension
cord to the outlet, leave my EVSE in the trunk, plug the charging head into
the port and lock my trunk using a latch extender (that I'll have to make)
to leave a gap for the cords.  I don't know if I'd charge in a public place
if I couldn't do that.



The longer-term solution is probably permanently-installed L1 charger cords
with the charging head attached.  Fixes both the convenience and theft
problems, but costs $200 instead of $5.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

All the garages I'm familiar with have 30A circuits. Garages typically get used 
for power equipment like saws that need heavy draws. If there's a single 30A 
circuit in the entire house, it'll be in the garage.

...and that's the case with houses built as far back as the Carter 
administration. Anything much older than that and it's going to have to be 
re-wired anyway to be brought up to code.

b&

On Oct 20, 2015, at 7:28 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> "If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about 10
> MPH from a standard 110 circuit."
> 
> Charging at 3.3kW would indeed permit about 10 mph charging rate but I think
> you won't find many 120V rms outlets that will supply the required 28A rms
> current or 30A at 110V.  You may find some dedicated 120V outlets that will
> supply 20A rms, or about 2.4 kW, which would permit a charging rate of 7.2
> mph, and many will be limited to 15A or 5.4 mph charging rate.
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Buying-An-Electric-Car-Why-Charging-Rate-DC-Quick-Charging-Matter-tp4678177p4678207.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Jim Walls  wrote:

> I've never lived in an apartment, but I know people who often have to park 
> blocks from home because that's the closest parking.

It might be a zoning thing here, but every apartment complex in the Phoenix 
area is pretty much guaranteed to have at least one and often more on-site 
parking spots for every dwelling. Typical (but not universal) is one or two 
designated covered spots per dwelling and about as many uncovered spots for 
guests.

The same applies for commercial spaces. Designated employee spots sufficient 
for all employees, plus "enough" (based on some formula) spots for customers.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[tomw via EV]

"If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about 10
MPH from a standard 110 circuit."

Charging at 3.3kW would indeed permit about 10 mph charging rate but I think
you won't find many 120V rms outlets that will supply the required 28A rms
current or 30A at 110V.  You may find some dedicated 120V outlets that will
supply 20A rms, or about 2.4 kW, which would permit a charging rate of 7.2
mph, and many will be limited to 15A or 5.4 mph charging rate.

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Buying-An-Electric-Car-Why-Charging-Rate-DC-Quick-Charging-Matter-tp4678177p4678207.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[dovepa via EV]

I leave the charger in the vehicle and run the extension cord out the window.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Chris Tromley via EV  Date: 10/19/2015  6:32 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Robert Bruninga , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An 
Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,
  DC Quick-Charging Matter 
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
> at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
> every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
> enough such public chargers.
>
> No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
> provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
> on-street parking having outlets.
>

​I'm getting more used to the idea of L1 charging being pretty useful, but
I have one remaining objection to it - L1 chargers.  Currently, using L1
charging means carrying your OEM EVSE with you and plugging it in.  You
can't always expect to have an outlet right at your parking spot, so you
also need an extension cord.  That's a significant inconvenience.  I
wouldn't mind it so much, but that could be enough for John Q. Public to
say, "What a pain.  I'm getting a gas car."

Not only that, but you're plugging in your OEM EVSE​

​and leaving it where anyone can walk away with it.  At ~$300​ a pop,
that's a significant risk.  I will likely end up with L1 charging where I
work, but with my i-MiEV's rear-fender charging port I can run an extension
cord to the outlet, leave my EVSE in the trunk, plug the charging head into
the port and lock my trunk using a latch extender (that I'll have to make)
to leave a gap for the cords.  I don't know if I'd charge in a public place
if I couldn't do that.

The longer-term solution is probably permanently-installed L1 charger cords
with the charging head attached.  Fixes both the convenience and theft
problems, but costs $200 instead of $5.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Brandon Hines via EV]

"Cars are parked 96% of the time."

Keep in mind that many/most cars are used to move people at the same
time each day so you still need enough cars for that peak demand.  I
have heard people talk about satisfying demand with a small percentage
of current cars, but I seriously doubt that the fleet across a community
could be reduced by much more than 35%.  Keeping the math simple that is
like paying 35% less for membership in an autonomous club versus owning
your own vehicle.  Put another way, how many people would be willing to
pay 50% more so that they can keep things in their own dedicated
autonomous vehicle and avoid dealing with crud and goo left behind from
a previous rider?

Just from a capitalization perspective I think that it is much more
likely that people own autonomous vehicles where some people loan them
out a-la Uber when not in use.  This model distributes the capital
requirements and allows for many more tiers of service from being a pure
renter to only using a dedicated private car. 

-Brandon

On 10/19/2015 01:16 PM, robert winfield via EV wrote:
> you are forgetting to think about an important concept. Cars are parked 96% 
> of the time. Autopilot is now being extensively data crowd sourced. In 10 
> years, Why buy a car? call one with your phone. they will be moving 80% of 
> the time and can recharge autonomously. Parking spaces will become less 
> valuable because you wont need one, because fewer will even want one, to 
> park, What? why own a car? just summon oneEV's will become ubiquitous. Where 
> in that giant parking lot is my vehicle? right in front of me, because I 
> summoned it.giant parking lots will also go away
>   From: Peri Hartman via EV 
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
>  Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:57 PM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
> Quick-Charging Matter
>
> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on 
> how you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off 
> street charging.  During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.  
> For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home 
> will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while 
> they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a 
> lot.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
> List" ; "brucedp5" 
> Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
> Quick-Charging Matter
>
>> What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while 
>> parked
>> and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.
>>
>> Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere 
>> else,
>> while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via 
>> EV
>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
>> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
>> Quick-Charging Matter
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>>
>>>   In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at
>>>   home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be
>>>   quite so important.
>> They're handwaving away the most important point.
>>
>> People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. 
>> People
>> who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is 
>> about.
>> My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 
>> 220
>> charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one 
>> down
>> if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending 
>> money
>> on one.
>>
>> I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
>> charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
>> charge the battery after a day's typical usage.
>>
>> If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at 
>> about
>> 10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but 
>> that's
>> 80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, 
>> at
>> least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the 
>> like.
>> In practice, mo

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
> at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
> every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
> enough such public chargers.
>
> No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
> provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
> on-street parking having outlets.
>

​I'm getting more used to the idea of L1 charging being pretty useful, but
I have one remaining objection to it - L1 chargers.  Currently, using L1
charging means carrying your OEM EVSE with you and plugging it in.  You
can't always expect to have an outlet right at your parking spot, so you
also need an extension cord.  That's a significant inconvenience.  I
wouldn't mind it so much, but that could be enough for John Q. Public to
say, "What a pain.  I'm getting a gas car."

Not only that, but you're plugging in your OEM EVSE​

​and leaving it where anyone can walk away with it.  At ~$300​ a pop,
that's a significant risk.  I will likely end up with L1 charging where I
work, but with my i-MiEV's rear-fender charging port I can run an extension
cord to the outlet, leave my EVSE in the trunk, plug the charging head into
the port and lock my trunk using a latch extender (that I'll have to make)
to leave a gap for the cords.  I don't know if I'd charge in a public place
if I couldn't do that.

The longer-term solution is probably permanently-installed L1 charger cords
with the charging head attached.  Fixes both the convenience and theft
problems, but costs $200 instead of $5.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Jim,
You are correct.
I did live in an apartment and we had one assigned spot
(where I charged my EV truck via a 12 gauge extension cord
that I dropped down from our balcony's outdoor 110V outlet)
so my wife had to park in the street.
Typical situation is that a family has one EV and one
long-range car, in our case a hybrid (Prius) so parking
that in the street was not a problem.
If however the second car would be a plug-in hybrid
then it becomes a bit more convoluted, although I always
managed to charge well within the overnight time, so it
would be possible to charge the plug-in hybrid for a
few hours, then swap spaces and charge the EV overnight.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jim Walls via EV
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:25 PM
To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,DC 
Quick-Charging Matter

Peri said:
  > Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how 
you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off street charging.
  
 Then Ben replied:
 > Almost all those people are apartment dwellers. And I think it's safe to 
 > suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult to find apartment complexes 
 > that lack 110 outlets for residents in their already-designated spaces as it 
 > is today to find apartment complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV and Internet 
 > access.

  
 You're making the assumption that most of those apartment dwellers HAVE a 
parking spot.  I've never lived in an apartment, but I know people who often 
have to park blocks from home because that's the closest parking.  
For example, the apartment comes with one space and both the husband and wife 
have a car.  Someone is parking on the street...
  
 Jim
  


 From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 10:24 AM
To: "Peri Hartman" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter   
On Oct 19, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on 
> how
you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off street charging.

Almost all those people are apartment dwellers. And I think it's safe to 
suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult to find apartment complexes 
that lack 110 outlets for residents in their already-designated spaces as it is 
today to find apartment complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV and Internet access.
 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Jim Walls via EV]

Peri said:
  > Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on 
how you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off street 
charging.
  
 Then Ben replied:
 > Almost all those people are apartment dwellers. And I think it's safe to 
suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult to find apartment 
complexes that lack 110 outlets for residents in their already-designated 
spaces as it is today to find apartment complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV 
and Internet access.

  
 You're making the assumption that most of those apartment dwellers HAVE a 
parking spot.  I've never lived in an apartment, but I know people who 
often have to park blocks from home because that's the closest parking.  
For example, the apartment comes with one space and both the husband and 
wife have a car.  Someone is parking on the street...
  
 Jim
  


 From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 10:24 AM
To: "Peri Hartman" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter   
On Oct 19, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how 
you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off street 
charging.

Almost all those people are apartment dwellers. And I think it's safe to 
suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult to find apartment 
complexes that lack 110 outlets for residents in their already-designated 
spaces as it is today to find apartment complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV 
and Internet access.
 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[damon henry via EV]

We are so far away from this ever really being an issue, and the chance that it 
ever will be still seems quite remote.  Even with the latest batch of OEM EV's 
there is no guarantee that EV's are going to stick.  There is still very little 
demand for them, and no apparent groundswell building...
damon

> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:44:14 -0400
> To: pe...@kotatko.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
> Quick-Charging Matter
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
> at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
> every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
> enough such public chargers.
> 
> No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
> provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
> on-street parking having outlets.
> 
> Sure, public charging will always be needed, but I cannot image anyone
> buying an EV with the idea of going somewhere else every single day to
> charge and waiting till complete...
> 
> bob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
> EV
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:58 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
> Quick-Charging Matter
> 
> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how
> you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off
> street charging.   During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.
> For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home
> will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while
> they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a
> lot.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message ------
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> ; "brucedp5" 
> Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
> Quick-Charging Matter
> 
> >What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while
> >parked and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.
> >
> >Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere
> >else, while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.
> >
> >-----Original Message-
> >From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
> >EV
> >Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
> >To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
> >Quick-Charging Matter
> >
> >On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> >
> >>  In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car
> >> at  home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may
> >> not be  quite so important.
> >
> >They're handwaving away the most important point.
> >
> >People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge.
> >People
> >who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is
> >about.
> >My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap
> >220
> >charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one
> >down if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in
> >spending money on one.
> >
> >I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
> >charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
> >charge the battery after a day's typical usage.
> >
> >If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at
> >about
> >10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but
> >that's
> >80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or,
> >at least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the
> >like.
> >In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
> >hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.
> >
> >And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road
> >in a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does
> >it happen day after day?
> >
> >Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
> >generation of cars. St

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
enough such public chargers.

No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
on-street parking having outlets.

Sure, public charging will always be needed, but I cannot image anyone
buying an EV with the idea of going somewhere else every single day to
charge and waiting till complete...

bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
EV
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
Quick-Charging Matter

Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how
you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off
street charging.   During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.
For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home
will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while
they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a
lot.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
; "brucedp5" 
Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
Quick-Charging Matter

>What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while
>parked and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.
>
>Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere
>else, while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
>EV
>Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
>To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
>Quick-Charging Matter
>
>On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>>  In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car
>> at  home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may
>> not be  quite so important.
>
>They're handwaving away the most important point.
>
>People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge.
>People
>who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is
>about.
>My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap
>220
>charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one
>down if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in
>spending money on one.
>
>I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
>charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
>charge the battery after a day's typical usage.
>
>If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at
>about
>10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but
>that's
>80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or,
>at least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the
>like.
>In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
>hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.
>
>And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road
>in a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does
>it happen day after day?
>
>Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
>generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles
>that single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8
>hours, start the next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that
>pattern up for over a week before you'd start to have legitimate reason
>for range anxiety. Give the car a couple days of 12-hour charges on
>your
>(presumed)
>weekend when you're only putting a few dozen miles per day on the car,
>and you're all caught back up again. And I think it's safe to suggest
>that what I just described is a rather extreme situation, even in
>America.
>Not
>unheard of, but very unusual.
>
>Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important
>with bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to
>bigger batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging
>-- assuming overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it
>typically is -- is for road trips or other sce

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Oct 2015 at 10:23, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> I think it's safe to suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult
> to find apartment complexes that lack 110 outlets for residents in
> their already-designated spaces as it is today to find apartment
> complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV and Internet access. 
> 

I'm afraid I just can't agree with this.  Unless all the oil wells dry up 
tomorrow, I think it's going to be many many years before EV charging is as 
big a deal as cable TV or internet access. 

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[robert winfield via EV]

you are forgetting to think about an important concept. Cars are parked 96% of 
the time. Autopilot is now being extensively data crowd sourced. In 10 years, 
Why buy a car? call one with your phone. they will be moving 80% of the time 
and can recharge autonomously. Parking spaces will become less valuable because 
you wont need one, because fewer will even want one, to park, What? why own a 
car? just summon oneEV's will become ubiquitous. Where in that giant parking 
lot is my vehicle? right in front of me, because I summoned it.giant parking 
lots will also go away
  From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter
   
Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on 
how you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off 
street charging.  During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.  
For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home 
will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while 
they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a 
lot.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" ; "brucedp5" 
Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter

>What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while 
>parked
>and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.
>
>Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere 
>else,
>while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via 
>EV
>Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
>To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
>Quick-Charging Matter
>
>On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>>  In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at
>>  home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be
>>  quite so important.
>
>They're handwaving away the most important point.
>
>People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. 
>People
>who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is 
>about.
>My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 
>220
>charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one 
>down
>if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending 
>money
>on one.
>
>I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
>charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
>charge the battery after a day's typical usage.
>
>If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at 
>about
>10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but 
>that's
>80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, 
>at
>least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the 
>like.
>In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
>hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.
>
>And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road 
>in
>a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does it
>happen day after day?
>
>Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
>generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles 
>that
>single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8 hours, 
>start
>the next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that pattern up for
>over a week before you'd start to have legitimate reason for range
>anxiety. Give the car a couple days of 12-hour charges on your 
>(presumed)
>weekend when you're only putting a few dozen miles per day on the car, 
>and
>you're all caught back up again. And I think it's safe to suggest that
>what I just described is a rather extreme situation, even in America. 
>Not
>unheard of, but very unusual.
>
>Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important 
>with
>bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to bigger
>batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging -- 
>assuming
>overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it typically is -- 
>is
>for road trips or other scenarios where you're spen

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 19, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how you 
> measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off street charging. 

Almost all those people are apartment dwellers. And I think it's safe to 
suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult to find apartment complexes 
that lack 110 outlets for residents in their already-designated spaces as it is 
today to find apartment complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV and Internet access.

The remainder are going to be those in places like San Francisco where 
on-street parking is the only option, and where there aren't enough on-street 
spots to begin with. That represents a very small fraction of the population -- 
but also a rather affluent fraction. I'll bet you a cup of coffee that parking 
meters with chargers become the norm in such places.

Between those two groups, plus the overwhelming majority who already have easy 
access to an overnight plug...that's everybody. Maybe except for the homeless 
living out of their cars -- but, for better or worse, that demographic isn't 
going to be considered in these matters.

There will be fast-charging stations along the freeways, mostly at existing 
truck stops and the like. There will be some convenience stores that have a 
fast-charging station near the gas pumps. There will never be the density of 
fast-charging stations as we currently have for gas pumps -- nowhere close.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on 
how you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off 
street charging.   During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.  
For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home 
will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while 
they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a 
lot.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" ; "brucedp5" 

Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter


What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while 
parked

and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.

Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere 
else,

while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via 
EV

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
Quick-Charging Matter

On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:


 In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at
 home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be
 quite so important.


They're handwaving away the most important point.

People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. 
People
who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is 
about.
My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 
220
charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one 
down
if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending 
money

on one.

I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
charge the battery after a day's typical usage.

If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at 
about
10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but 
that's
80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, 
at
least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the 
like.

In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.

And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road 
in

a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does it
happen day after day?

Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles 
that
single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8 hours, 
start

the next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that pattern up for
over a week before you'd start to have legitimate reason for range
anxiety. Give the car a couple days of 12-hour charges on your 
(presumed)
weekend when you're only putting a few dozen miles per day on the car, 
and

you're all caught back up again. And I think it's safe to suggest that
what I just described is a rather extreme situation, even in America. 
Not

unheard of, but very unusual.

Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important 
with

bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to bigger
batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging -- 
assuming
overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it typically is -- 
is

for road trips or other scenarios where you're spending almost as much
time in the car as you do in bed. And most people are renting cars for
road trips these days anyway

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while parked
and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.

Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere else,
while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
Quick-Charging Matter

On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at
> home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be
> quite so important.

They're handwaving away the most important point.

People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. People
who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is about.
My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 220
charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one down
if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending money
on one.

I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
charge the battery after a day's typical usage.

If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about
10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but that's
80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, at
least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the like.
In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.

And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road in
a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does it
happen day after day?

Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles that
single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8 hours, start
the next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that pattern up for
over a week before you'd start to have legitimate reason for range
anxiety. Give the car a couple days of 12-hour charges on your (presumed)
weekend when you're only putting a few dozen miles per day on the car, and
you're all caught back up again. And I think it's safe to suggest that
what I just described is a rather extreme situation, even in America. Not
unheard of, but very unusual.

Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important with
bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to bigger
batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging -- assuming
overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it typically is -- is
for road trips or other scenarios where you're spending almost as much
time in the car as you do in bed. And most people are renting cars for
road trips these days anyway

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at home
> every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be quite so
> important.

They're handwaving away the most important point.

People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. People 
who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is about. My 
parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 220 charger 
for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one down if you 
offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending money on one.

I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to charge 
the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to charge the 
battery after a day's typical usage.

If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about 10 MPH 
from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but that's 80 miles 
after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, at least, spend 
that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the like. In practice, most 
people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12 hours a day at home, 
giving 100 - 120 miles.

And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road in a 
given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does it happen 
day after day?

Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next 
generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles that 
single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8 hours, start the 
next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that pattern up for over a week 
before you'd start to have legitimate reason for range anxiety. Give the car a 
couple days of 12-hour charges on your (presumed) weekend when you're only 
putting a few dozen miles per day on the car, and you're all caught back up 
again. And I think it's safe to suggest that what I just described is a rather 
extreme situation, even in America. Not unheard of, but very unusual.

Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important with 
bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to bigger 
batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging -- assuming 
overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it typically is -- is for 
road trips or other scenarios where you're spending almost as much time in the 
car as you do in bed. And most people are renting cars for road trips these 
days anyway

Cheers,

b&
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