[EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
Hi folks When reading the 2020 NEC for a master electrician exam, I noticed 210.8(B) says that 50A and below must now have a GFCI breaker at the panel that Tesla etc says will cause nuisance trips (see article). 625.54 in the EV section further states “All receptacles for EV charging shall have GFCI protection. The article states that hardwired EVSE gets around this requirement since the GFCI is contained but I don’t see that in the code book. Anyway I have not installed GFCI protection on EVSE circuits and don’t know of electricians here that have since it causes nuisance trips. The code looks like using a 60A breaker is a loophole to get around this requirement as the Tesla EVSE installation manual recommends (and the fact that Teslas can draw up to 48A instead if the typical 30A others use). Say does anyone know why there’s a 12” cord limit on portable EVSE? That seems silly unless they’re afraid it might lay on the floor in a water puddle. Best regards Mark https://www.seahurst.com/nema-14-50/ Sent from my iPhone ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
NEC article 625.17 has a mention that the input cord length shall not exceed 12” if the personnel protection system (GFI?) is located in the EVSE enclosure. That appears to be an ‘out’ for needing a GFI breaker? Just speculation. Tom Keenan > On Apr 12, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: > > Hi folks > When reading the 2020 NEC for a master electrician exam, I noticed 210.8(B) > says that 50A and below must now have a GFCI breaker at the panel that Tesla > etc says will cause nuisance trips (see article). 625.54 in the EV section > further states “All receptacles for EV charging shall have GFCI protection. > The article states that hardwired EVSE gets around this requirement since the > GFCI is contained but I don’t see that in the code book. Anyway I have not > installed GFCI protection on EVSE circuits and don’t know of electricians > here that have since it causes nuisance trips. The code looks like using a > 60A breaker is a loophole to get around this requirement as the Tesla EVSE > installation manual recommends (and the fact that Teslas can draw up to 48A > instead if the typical 30A others use). > Say does anyone know why there’s a 12” cord limit on portable EVSE? That > seems silly unless they’re afraid it might lay on the floor in a water puddle. > Best regards Mark > https://www.seahurst.com/nema-14-50/ > > Sent from my iPhone > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Gathered data on my EV F250
Collected some actual data about the power usage of my EV F250. I did a CostCo trip tonight and remembered to set/clear counters before leaving. 102.4 Miles, 242.8AH. Started at 350v, ended at 310v. Cruising at 60mph uses somewhere around 45KW. (even on dead level road, with little wind, it was hard to keep the number steady while holding a constant speed.) Lets see how the numbers work out. Assume 330v for the trip (average). That means I used about 80KWh. Over 102.4 miles is 782 Wh/Mile. And assuming 60mph, that comes out to about 47KW at 60mph. Cells: 4.16v at start, 3.69v at end. I'm not sure of what the discharge curve looks like on these cells. I've been assuming 3.5v at bottom, but some people seem to think they could go a bit lower. I was guessing this pack to be around 112KWh. If that is correct, with the above numbers I'd get a range of 143 miles. If we assume the cells have a linear discharge curve (not likely), the % of power remaining would be about 12% - giving a total range of about 116 miles. I really do hope it's more than that. Lots of guesses and assumptions with the above numbers. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
Yeah the EVSE's GFCI is required to self-test, so that self test can trip an upstream GFCI. Which means every time you try to charge you get a nuisance trip. If you must install a GFCI on your 14-50 because of your local AHJ, try to obtain a 30ma unit not a 6ma. Best thing to do is hardwire it so the upstream GFCI is not required. On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 10:35 AM Mark Hanson wrote: > Thanks Phil etc > Sometimes the code doesn’t explain why there’s certain rules that appear > arbitrary (like the 12” cord rule). The larger units are limited to 6’. > Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure how > much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker). A large chassis like a > car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to line) > and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely leak > close to 6ma. Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn’t enforced the panel GFCI > breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging. > Best regards Mark > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2024, at 12:46 PM, (-Phil-) wrote: > > > Yes, the 12" restriction is because all EVSEs are required to have > integral GFCI protection, but of course this will do no good for wiring > "before" the EVSE, so they mandate this cable is as short as possible. > EVSEs are used in mechanically hostile environments, so it's likely that a > certain percentage of EVSEs will get mechanical damage to the insulation on > their cords. If that cord was before the integral GFCI, there would be no > protection, in addition, the cable from the EVSE to the car is electrically > dead until the handshake from the car is completed, so the likelihood of > getting shocked or electrocuted is much lower. Not so with the cable from > the wall to the EVSE itself. > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:05 AM Tom Keenan via EV > wrote: > >> NEC article 625.17 has a mention that the input cord length shall not >> exceed 12” if the personnel protection system (GFI?) is located in the EVSE >> enclosure. >> That appears to be an ‘out’ for needing a GFI breaker? Just speculation. >> Tom Keenan >> >> > On Apr 12, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Mark Hanson via EV >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi folks >> > When reading the 2020 NEC for a master electrician exam, I noticed >> 210.8(B) says that 50A and below must now have a GFCI breaker at the panel >> that Tesla etc says will cause nuisance trips (see article). 625.54 in the >> EV section further states “All receptacles for EV charging shall have GFCI >> protection. The article states that hardwired EVSE gets around this >> requirement since the GFCI is contained but I don’t see that in the code >> book. Anyway I have not installed GFCI protection on EVSE circuits and >> don’t know of electricians here that have since it causes nuisance trips. >> The code looks like using a 60A breaker is a loophole to get around this >> requirement as the Tesla EVSE installation manual recommends (and the fact >> that Teslas can draw up to 48A instead if the typical 30A others use). >> > Say does anyone know why there’s a 12” cord limit on portable EVSE? >> That seems silly unless they’re afraid it might lay on the floor in a water >> puddle. >> > Best regards Mark >> > https://www.seahurst.com/nema-14-50/ >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > ___ >> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> > >> >> ___ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> >> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240412/de595de8/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
On 12 Apr 2024 at 13:35, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: > An HTML attachment was scrubbed.. Thanks Phil etc Sometimes the code doesn't explain why there's certain rules that appear arbitrary (like the 12" cord rule). The larger units are limited to 6'. Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure how much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker). A large chassis like a car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to line) and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely leak close to 6ma. Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn't enforced the panel GFCI breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging. Best regards Mark PS from the moderator - please try to send plain text, folks. Thanks. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the gods give you everything you ask for." I have no idea about its authenticity. -- Terry Pratchett = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
Yes, the 12" restriction is because all EVSEs are required to have integral GFCI protection, but of course this will do no good for wiring "before" the EVSE, so they mandate this cable is as short as possible. EVSEs are used in mechanically hostile environments, so it's likely that a certain percentage of EVSEs will get mechanical damage to the insulation on their cords. If that cord was before the integral GFCI, there would be no protection, in addition, the cable from the EVSE to the car is electrically dead until the handshake from the car is completed, so the likelihood of getting shocked or electrocuted is much lower. Not so with the cable from the wall to the EVSE itself. On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:05 AM Tom Keenan via EV wrote: > NEC article 625.17 has a mention that the input cord length shall not > exceed 12” if the personnel protection system (GFI?) is located in the EVSE > enclosure. > That appears to be an ‘out’ for needing a GFI breaker? Just speculation. > Tom Keenan > > > On Apr 12, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Mark Hanson via EV > wrote: > > > > Hi folks > > When reading the 2020 NEC for a master electrician exam, I noticed > 210.8(B) says that 50A and below must now have a GFCI breaker at the panel > that Tesla etc says will cause nuisance trips (see article). 625.54 in the > EV section further states “All receptacles for EV charging shall have GFCI > protection. The article states that hardwired EVSE gets around this > requirement since the GFCI is contained but I don’t see that in the code > book. Anyway I have not installed GFCI protection on EVSE circuits and > don’t know of electricians here that have since it causes nuisance trips. > The code looks like using a 60A breaker is a loophole to get around this > requirement as the Tesla EVSE installation manual recommends (and the fact > that Teslas can draw up to 48A instead if the typical 30A others use). > > Say does anyone know why there’s a 12” cord limit on portable EVSE? > That seems silly unless they’re afraid it might lay on the floor in a water > puddle. > > Best regards Mark > > https://www.seahurst.com/nema-14-50/ > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240412/a3c41863/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging
IIRC, J1772 specs 20ma. So it will likely put an over 20ma ground fault intentionally during its self test. On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:01 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 12 Apr 2024 at 13:35, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed.. > > Thanks Phil etc > > Sometimes the code doesn't explain why there's certain rules that appear > arbitrary (like the 12" cord rule). The larger units are limited to 6'. > > Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure how > much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker). A large chassis like > a > car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to line) > and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely leak > close to 6ma. Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn't enforced the panel GFCI > breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging. > > Best regards Mark > > PS from the moderator - please try to send plain text, folks. Thanks. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in > a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the > attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the > gods give you everything you ask for." I have no idea about > its authenticity. > > -- Terry Pratchett > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240412/68fe2494/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
