Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:39 am, Wolfgang Bornath had this to contribute :- My $200,000.00 Life must be hard for people who regard their opinion not worthier than $0.02. wobo Intriguing thought. Charlie -- Man is the only animal for whom his own existence is a problem which he has to solve. Erich Fromm This email is guaranteed to be wholly Linux Mandrake 9.1, Kmail v1.5 and OpenOffice.org1.1Beta Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 02:16, charlie wrote: On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:39 am, Wolfgang Bornath had this to contribute :- My $200,000.00 Life must be hard for people who regard their opinion not worthier than $0.02. wobo Intriguing thought. Charlie Either that or they value it in 1900 US dollars (.02 would have gotten you a meal back then) *grin* Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
Hi All, The list I am refering to is for tru64 Unix ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IMHO, that list serves much better purpose than this one. Searching their archives, its almost 100% hit on subjects that have been discussed before. And, better yet, one always goes for the SUMMARY/Resolution. Isnt that what we all want? Or is this a Gossip corner?? For a Gossip corner, we are OKbut for true learning and solving of problems, we need solutions! While there might be 10 replies to one posting, only one might be really relevant, the rest personal emotions and such. Wouldn't you rather see a summary that only includes the one entry that correctly resolved the problem? I would. So instead of reading 25 back-and-forth entries to find one solution, i would rather have one post --then--its solution. Again, its just an idea Different folks, Different Strokes Richard --- Brian V Bonini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:39, charlie wrote: On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:23 am, Tru64 User had this to contribute :- Let me know what you guys think. _Thanks Richard Mollel Sort of defeats the purpose of the list. It is the think tank element of everyone throwing something in that makes this list a valuable learning experience IMHO. I wonder how long the list that uses the rules you mention has been running? It might also be relevant to know what it is dealing with I suppose? I certainly can't identify such an environment as allowing maximum discovery. Not quite 2 cents worth I know. Charlie. I agree and add that this is hardly a busy list that borders on being too much too handle. You can always hit delete on the topics your not interested in. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com = __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 23:43, Tru64 User wrote: Hi All, The list I am refering to is for tru64 Unix ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IMHO, that list serves much better purpose than this one. Searching their archives, its almost 100% hit on subjects that have been discussed before. And, better yet, one always goes for the SUMMARY/Resolution. Isnt that what we all want? Or is this a Gossip corner?? For a Gossip corner, we are OKbut for true learning and solving of problems, we need solutions! I think we get the idea, but you need to accept that the people here on this list like the way it is. I haven't read all the messages in this thread, but those I've seen were pretty negative to the idea. It may be tough to find relevant hits in the archives sometimes, but it's damn easy to get help when you need it here (or at least sympathy ;-) Gossip corner forever! Brian Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 10:17, Brian Parish wrote: On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 23:43, Tru64 User wrote: Hi All, The list I am refering to is for tru64 Unix ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IMHO, that list serves much better purpose than this one. Searching their archives, its almost 100% hit on subjects that have been discussed before. And, better yet, one always goes for the SUMMARY/Resolution. Isnt that what we all want? Or is this a Gossip corner?? For a Gossip corner, we are OKbut for true learning and solving of problems, we need solutions! I think we get the idea, but you need to accept that the people here on this list like the way it is. I haven't read all the messages in this thread, but those I've seen were pretty negative to the idea. It may be tough to find relevant hits in the archives sometimes, but it's damn easy to get help when you need it here (or at least sympathy ;-) Gossip corner forever! Brian Heh. ;) --LX -- Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk Linux Mandrake 9.1 Enlightenment-0.16.5-12mdk Evolution 1.2.4-1.1mdk Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
** Tru64 User (Dienstag, 17. Juni 2003 15:43) For a Gossip corner, we are OKbut for true learning and solving of problems, we need solutions! You just named one of the reasons I'm reading this list and why I'd like to have it like it is: Learning! My background in Linux is only a couple of years, starting with some distros (DLD, Slackware, Caldera, SuSE, Red Hat) and finally settled on Mandrake (5.3). Since this list was brought to life I am reading it and I have lots of messages stored away for further reading or applying the contents. While it may be nice to ask a question and receive an answer with the solution it's also interesting to read the in-betweens. A to list: I have this question Q. B to A: Answer 1 C to A: Answer 2 D to A: Answer 3 A to D: Answer 3 is good but B wrote quote D to B: Yes, but B is wrong A to B: D said you're wrong B to A: No, I'm not! A to C: I did what you advised but my foo did not compile C to A: Why not? A to C: I got this error. A to B: C advised to do and I did it but my foo did not compile and I have this error B to A: It could be this and that. A to C: B said it could be this and that. C to A: Oh! Then it must be the harddrive. Do a blahblah and re-login. A to list: Referring question Q. The solution is: Do a blahblah and re-login. Is that what you have in mind? If the whole thing had been gone public it would have been faster, easier for A and a learning experience for some of the lurkers who learned that foo would not compile in this condition and was not a solution as well as Answer 3 wasn't either. While there might be 10 replies to one posting, only one might be really relevant, the rest personal emotions and such. Wouldn't you rather see a summary that only includes the one entry that correctly resolved the problem? I would. So instead of reading 25 back-and-forth entries to find one solution, i would rather have one post --then--its solution. OK, then go for an expert system, not a mailing list. A mailinglist - as far as I know them by some years - is mostly a forum for people interested in a topic or software or any issue. They don't want to post a question and get the solution and nothing else. They want to learn, give their opinions and even gather some self-esteem by answering other people's questions as soon as they have learned enough. The magic word is: Discussion. My $200,000.00 Life must be hard for people who regard their opinion not worthier than $0.02. wobo -- Public GnuPG key available at http://www.wolf-b.de/misc Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:23, Tru64 User wrote: Hi ALL, I have one suggestion to make. To minimize traffic on this list and make it a Read All list, i suggest the following rules which are being followed on a different list I am subscribing to to be adopted on this list: snip several good ideas I think you make some good points here, but one of the strengths of this and other support-type mailing lists is the open discussion that goes on. Quite often it seems that one person's response jogs something in another person's memory, often leading to a better resolution than one person alone would have come up with. We'd lose a lot of that if the discussion switched to one-on-one for each question. So, basically, I like things the way they are :-) Your ideas do sound good for perhaps a 'expert-light' list though, or something similar. Just a thought. Hez Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
Every list I've been on that implemented such a setup ended up dead within the year. Traffic levels drop alright, spiraling down to zero. As long as truly OT flamewars and silliness are kept down, the sort of list non-structure that we currently enjoy allows a sense of community to form, allows one advice-giver to amplify or correct another advice-giver's answer, and allows serendipitous connections to be drawn. Rather than less traffic, in my opinion we should have more traffic -- as I've said before, I would merge the newbie and expert lists into a single users list. I don't believe that there is a moderator since Todd left. Per Vincent's message, it appears that Mandrake has decided to shift their attention to web-fora as a support channel (bad mistake) and is consequently deprioritizing all lists other than cooker. Furthermore, mailing lists were never a support channel, support isn't really support, and black is truly white if you just stop and think about it long enough. Jack On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 08:23, Tru64 User wrote: Hi ALL, I have one suggestion to make. To minimize traffic on this list and make it a Read All list, i suggest the following rules which are being followed on a different list I am subscribing to to be adopted on this list: After a question is posted, all replies should go directly ONLY to the person who posted the question. After a satisfactory resolution, the original poster should then post a SUMMARY:, which is a description to what/how the problem was solved, to the list. If responses slow down, and problem has not been resolved, then the original poster can submit an UPDATE: to the status of his problem if not resolved. Finally, if a problem is never resolved, send a SUMMARY anyway, to say that problem was not resolved/or no replies. U might be suprised how many more may reply then, since they always assumed someone else had : -) That way, every post will have mostly 2-3 total entries only. 1. Original Question 2. (Optional)UPDATE 3. SUMMARY. Heading should be tagged as such too, to show whether this is an UPDATE or a SUMMARY. This makes it easier to filter into peoples mailboxes. That way, it will be very useful to all of us, and future users of mdk. I come across posts that should be offlinelike email today said I can say more offline than here and then, another email reply goes I tell you Those should not belong here in my opinion. Those two lines are 2/116 i received from Sat 10AM to Monday 10AM. Automatically it forces a HighLight ALL, DELETE for it takes too long to read all emails...only to find out that a big number should not have been posted to the public to begin with. Let me know what you guys think. BTW, who is the list monitor? _Thanks Richard Mollel = __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... http://www.monkeynoodle.org/resume.html Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
Tru64 User wrote: Hi ALL, I have one suggestion to make. To minimize traffic on this list and make it a Read All list, i suggest the following rules which are being followed on a different list I am subscribing to to be adopted on this list: After a question is posted, all replies should go directly ONLY to the person who posted the question. After a satisfactory resolution, the original poster should then post a SUMMARY:, which is a description to what/how the problem was solved, to the list. If responses slow down, and problem has not been resolved, then the original poster can submit an UPDATE: to the status of his problem if not resolved. Finally, if a problem is never resolved, send a SUMMARY anyway, to say that problem was not resolved/or no replies. U might be suprised how many more may reply then, since they always assumed someone else had : -) That way, every post will have mostly 2-3 total entries only. 1. Original Question 2. (Optional)UPDATE 3. SUMMARY. Heading should be tagged as such too, to show whether this is an UPDATE or a SUMMARY. This makes it easier to filter into peoples mailboxes. That way, it will be very useful to all of us, and future users of mdk. I come across posts that should be offlinelike email today said I can say more offline than here and then, another email reply goes I tell you Those should not belong here in my opinion. Those two lines are 2/116 i received from Sat 10AM to Monday 10AM. Automatically it forces a HighLight ALL, DELETE for it takes too long to read all emails...only to find out that a big number should not have been posted to the public to begin with. Let me know what you guys think. BTW, who is the list monitor? _Thanks Richard Mollel = I don't think that is a very good idea. The thinking out loud that happens here and in the cooker list is what leads to solutions. If after the first post all responses are off list how does anyone profit by, or add to, the information being passed back and forth between the original poster and the responders? You never know when someone might say something that will jog someone's memory or imagination. They can't add to the discussion in real time if they don't know what's being said. -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Monday 16 Jun 2003 4:47 pm, Hezekiah M. Carty wrote: On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:23, Tru64 User wrote: Hi ALL, I have one suggestion to make. To minimize traffic on this list and make it a Read All list, i suggest the following rules which are being followed on a different list I am subscribing to to be adopted on this list: snip several good ideas I think you make some good points here, but one of the strengths of this and other support-type mailing lists is the open discussion that goes on. Quite often it seems that one person's response jogs something in another person's memory, often leading to a better resolution than one person alone would have come up with. We'd lose a lot of that if the discussion switched to one-on-one for each question. So, basically, I like things the way they are :-) Your ideas do sound good for perhaps a 'expert-light' list though, or something similar. I sympathise with the intention of the suggestion, but as a learning tool, we would also lost something, I think. The troubleshooting along the way often makes me think about things relevant to my own system. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:23, Tru64 User wrote: After a question is posted, all replies should go directly ONLY to the person who posted the question. After a satisfactory resolution, the original poster should then post a SUMMARY:, which is a description to what/how the problem was solved, to the list. If responses slow down, and problem has not been resolved, then the original poster can submit an UPDATE: to the status of his problem if not resolved. I certainly don't agree with limiting threads to 2 or 3 posts. The whole spirit of the list is to allow open collaboration and the sharing of knowledge. Sure, there's noise but the moderators have responded to OT posts before. I for one will absolutely not continue to read or respond to any list where the posts are not publicly available. Finally, if a problem is never resolved, send a SUMMARY anyway, to say that problem was not resolved/or no replies. U might be suprised how many more may reply then, since they always assumed someone else had : -) Sure, a summary post is always polite, especially in cases where the poster gets private responses. I send quite a bit of private mail because the original post may be OT for the list. That way, every post will have mostly 2-3 total entries only. 1. Original Question 2. (Optional)UPDATE 3. SUMMARY. A better idea is to read the Usenet etiquette guidelines. You don't need to agree or follow every one of them, but some make sense. For example, when replying to a post, quote only the relevant portions of the email. This list has had some very long emails, quoting not only multiple signature lines, but every response in the thread. Many times only one or two lines were added to a hundred plus line post. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Mon Jun 16, 2003 at 08:45:39AM -0700, Jack Coates wrote:
I don't believe that there is a moderator since Todd left. Per Vincent's
message, it appears that Mandrake has decided to shift their attention
to web-fora as a support channel (bad mistake) and is consequently
deprioritizing all lists other than cooker. Furthermore, mailing lists
were never a support channel, support isn't really support, and black is
truly white if you just stop and think about it long enough.
There is no moderator, and we didn't shift our attention to a website; it's
always been a website. This has never been an official support channel.
This is an unofficial community-driven support channel, and it has always
been this way. The official support has always been MandrakeExpert.
Cooker is a different list... it isn't a support list, it's a development
list. Big difference.
And no, there is no moderator although if things get out of hand, I'd have
to step forward I suppose.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 09:12, Kwan Lowe wrote: heavy snip A better idea is to read the Usenet etiquette guidelines. You don't need to agree or follow every one of them, but some make sense. For example, when replying to a post, quote only the relevant portions of the email. This list has had some very long emails, quoting not only multiple signature lines, but every response in the thread. Many times only one or two lines were added to a hundred plus line post. Kwan, I agree with snipping and stand as guilty as anyone of being lazy. However I cut religiously sigs. But as far as traffic goes this list can't touch cooker.. Now that's volume (800 to a thousand a day during crunch time!) I've learned way to much following threads if this list dropped to 2 or 3 mails per thread it would become as useless a a forum for me. Oh yes and if the problem is a good one... Summarize in the community twiki *grin* James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:23 am, Tru64 User had this to contribute :- Let me know what you guys think. _Thanks Richard Mollel Sort of defeats the purpose of the list. It is the think tank element of everyone throwing something in that makes this list a valuable learning experience IMHO. I wonder how long the list that uses the rules you mention has been running? It might also be relevant to know what it is dealing with I suppose? I certainly can't identify such an environment as allowing maximum discovery. Not quite 2 cents worth I know. Charlie. -- Man is the only animal for whom his own existence is a problem which he has to solve. Erich Fromm This email is guaranteed to be wholly Linux Mandrake 9.1, Kmail v1.5 and OpenOffice.org1.1Beta Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Suggestions to help Minimize List Email Traffic
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:39, charlie wrote: On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:23 am, Tru64 User had this to contribute :- Let me know what you guys think. _Thanks Richard Mollel Sort of defeats the purpose of the list. It is the think tank element of everyone throwing something in that makes this list a valuable learning experience IMHO. I wonder how long the list that uses the rules you mention has been running? It might also be relevant to know what it is dealing with I suppose? I certainly can't identify such an environment as allowing maximum discovery. Not quite 2 cents worth I know. Charlie. I agree and add that this is hardly a busy list that borders on being too much too handle. You can always hit delete on the topics your not interested in. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
