[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- suziezuzie msilver1951@ wrote: At what level of psychosis would you suggest that someone shouldn't meditate? Any level of psychosis! And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? Delusions, hallucinations, loss of ego boundaries, derealization, depersonalization, ideas of reference, paranoia. I know someone who always looks to their right when they eat as if someone is watching them. They also talk to themselves quite habitually as if another person is in the room. Would you initiate someone like this? Probably not. They need to be assessed by a mental health professional. These could all be symptoms of an underlying psychological disorder. How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? I think psychosis, for the most part, is an organic brain disorder whose symptoms appear in the psychological domain. Why does TM make it worse? TM makes it worse because in psychosis a person's ego structures are being over-whelmed. They are losing their psychological constructs that allow them to expereince and interact with the object/consensual world. TM moves the mind towards greater and greater levels of abstraction which overwhelms these mental structures even more. Psychotic people can not even experience ambiguous stimuli (something that does not have clear, definite meaning) without becoming worse in seconds. TM is not an effective intervention with psychotics because it moving the attention in the wrong direction. They need to move the attention into boundaries, not away from them. I developed a very effective intervention with psychotics during an internship I had using what MMY had said during my TTC regarding the breakdown of mind/body coordination in schizophrenics. He said you could help schizophrenics by hitting them with a flower and saying, flower, flower, everytime you hit them. This just sat in my notes for years until I started working in the mental health field with psychotics. I realized what MMY was talking about with this intervention. So in groups I used to pass objects around (e.g., cups, pencils, books, etc) and each person had to hold the object and state what their direct experience of the object was at that moment. No associations, only their direct experience. This, over time, had an amazing effect of radically reducing hallucinations and delusions as noted by myself and other staff members. Mark In Scientology, they put an emphasis on object reality consensus as you put it, exercises that have the practitioner touch things, or demonstrate ideas with clay, etc. I don't encourage Scientology because I have found that on the other hand, their techniques lack the abstraction that I find so fulfilling in TM and I'm convinced that their techniques do not allow for an experience of transcendence. They, like yourself feel that abstract experiences make a person worse. If one isn't grounded personally, ie., psychotic even to a mild degree, this may be true. For myself, after meditating for 35 years, I have to tell you that I love the pure abstraction that I experience, that field of pure bliss consciousness (for a lack of better words). But on the other hand, I must also tell you that any traces of psychotic personality that I may have incurred before starting TM are still with me! The only difference now is that I manage these behaviors, look at them for what they are, witness them, see them clearly as they manifest. This is not to say that I am very psychotic but have very low levels of personality dysfunction, that I as a non professional would diagnose as low level psychotic manifestations. TM has clearly not addressed this but hasn't made it worse either, even on long rounding courses. In my opinion, I became even more convinced that I possessed psychosis from the psychotic episodes experienced after taking strong marijuana or hashish, this being many years ago but nevertheless, I have been curious as to why this experience would manifest except that it was there to begin with and
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At what level of psychosis would you suggest that someone shouldn't meditate? Any level of psychosis! And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? Delusions, hallucinations, loss of ego boundaries, derealization, depersonalization, ideas of reference, paranoia. I know someone who always looks to their right when they eat as if someone is watching them. They also talk to themselves quite habitually as if another person is in the room. Would you initiate someone like this? Probably not. They need to be assessed by a mental health professional. These could all be symptoms of an underlying psychological disorder. How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? I think psychosis, for the most part, is an organic brain disorder whose symptoms appear in the psychological domain. Why does TM make it worse? TM makes it worse because in psychosis a person's ego structures are being over-whelmed. They are losing their psychological constructs that allow them to expereince and interact with the object/consensual world. TM moves the mind towards greater and greater levels of abstraction which overwhelms these mental structures even more. Psychotic people can not even experience ambiguous stimuli (something that does not have clear, definite meaning) without becoming worse in seconds. TM is not an effective intervention with psychotics because it moving the attention in the wrong direction. They need to move the attention into boundaries, not away from them. I developed a very effective intervention with psychotics during an internship I had using what MMY had said during my TTC regarding the breakdown of mind/body coordination in schizophrenics. He said you could help schizophrenics by hitting them with a flower and saying, flower, flower, everytime you hit them. This just sat in my notes for years until I started working in the mental health field with psychotics. I realized what MMY was talking about with this intervention. So in groups I used to pass objects around (e.g., cups, pencils, books, etc) and each person had to hold the object and state what their direct experience of the object was at that moment. No associations, only their direct experience. This, over time, had an amazing effect of radically reducing hallucinations and delusions as noted by myself and other staff members. Mark --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my tradition we don't teach anyone with a mental disorder. Instead we have external healing techniques that can help. I can recall a few psychotics I checked that really shouldn't have been doing TM. I couldn't tell them that of course. Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness. A large body of research has demonstrated that Transcendental Meditation produces comprehensive improvements in mental health, enhancing positive features and reducing various forms of psychological distress. A systematic review of 144 studies found that Transcendental Meditation was markedly more effective in reducing anxiety than other techniques (including progressive muscular relaxation, methods claimed to induce a 'relaxation response', and other forms of meditation) The superiority of Transcendental Meditation remained highly significant when only the strongest and most rigorous studies were included in the analysis. Transcendental Meditation has also consistently been found to reduce depression, hostility, and emotional instability, indicating the growth of a more stable, balanced, and resilient personality In another statistical review of 42 independent research results, Transcendental Meditation was found to be three times as effective as other meditation and relaxation procedures in increasing self- actualization-an overall measure of positive mental health and personal development. Further analysis revealed that the technique is exceptionally effective in developing three independent components of
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If only I had a nickel for every self-actualized sidha I've met. I could buy a popsicle. just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness
Peter, a really excellent discussion and explication on the subject. Thanks. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At what level of psychosis would you suggest that someone shouldn't meditate? Any level of psychosis! And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? Delusions, hallucinations, loss of ego boundaries, derealization, depersonalization, ideas of reference, paranoia. I know someone who always looks to their right when they eat as if someone is watching them. They also talk to themselves quite habitually as if another person is in the room. Would you initiate someone like this? Probably not. They need to be assessed by a mental health professional. These could all be symptoms of an underlying psychological disorder. How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? I think psychosis, for the most part, is an organic brain disorder whose symptoms appear in the psychological domain. Why does TM make it worse? TM makes it worse because in psychosis a person's ego structures are being over-whelmed. They are losing their psychological constructs that allow them to expereince and interact with the object/consensual world. TM moves the mind towards greater and greater levels of abstraction which overwhelms these mental structures even more. Psychotic people can not even experience ambiguous stimuli (something that does not have clear, definite meaning) without becoming worse in seconds. TM is not an effective intervention with psychotics because it moving the attention in the wrong direction. They need to move the attention into boundaries, not away from them. I developed a very effective intervention with psychotics during an internship I had using what MMY had said during my TTC regarding the breakdown of mind/body coordination in schizophrenics. He said you could help schizophrenics by hitting them with a flower and saying, flower, flower, everytime you hit them. This just sat in my notes for years until I started working in the mental health field with psychotics. I realized what MMY was talking about with this intervention. So in groups I used to pass objects around (e.g., cups, pencils, books, etc) and each person had to hold the object and state what their direct experience of the object was at that moment. No associations, only their direct experience. This, over time, had an amazing effect of radically reducing hallucinations and delusions as noted by myself and other staff members. Mark --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: In my tradition we don't teach anyone with a mental disorder. Instead we have external healing techniques that can help. I can recall a few psychotics I checked that really shouldn't have been doing TM. I couldn't tell them that of course. Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. --- suziezuzie msilver1951@ wrote: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness. A large body of research has demonstrated that Transcendental Meditation produces comprehensive improvements in mental health, enhancing positive features and reducing various forms of psychological distress. A systematic review of 144 studies found that Transcendental Meditation was markedly more effective in reducing anxiety than other techniques (including progressive muscular relaxation, methods claimed to induce a 'relaxation response', and other forms of meditation) The superiority of Transcendental Meditation remained highly significant when only the strongest and most rigorous studies were included in the analysis. Transcendental Meditation has also consistently been found to reduce depression, hostility, and emotional instability, indicating the growth of a more stable, balanced, and resilient personality In another statistical review of 42 independent research results, Transcendental Meditation was found to be three times as
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
On Nov 28, 2006, at 9:05 AM, Peter wrote: And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? Delusions, hallucinations, loss of ego boundaries, derealization, depersonalization, ideas of reference, paranoia. In other words, the typical Siddha. :) Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 28, 2006, at 9:05 AM, Peter wrote: And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? Delusions, hallucinations, loss of ego boundaries, derealization, depersonalization, ideas of reference, paranoia. In other words, the typical Siddha. :) Sal Ha! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If only I had a nickel for every self-actualized sidha I've met. I could buy a popsicle. just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods? The hell with popsicles, I wonder if we should give any soup to guillible fool up in the new tree fort? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool fflmod@ wrote: If only I had a nickel for every self-actualized sidha I've met. I could buy a popsicle. just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods? The hell with popsicles, I wonder if we should give any soup to guillible fool up in the new tree fort? Is soup available on the tree fort menu??
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool fflmod@ wrote: If only I had a nickel for every self-actualized sidha I've met. I could buy a popsicle. just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods? More to the point, if he met a self-actualized sidha, how would he know? Do they walk around with T-Shirts saying Hi, I'm John/Frank/Martha/Susan and I am self-actualized?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, a really excellent discussion and explication on the subject. Thanks. And completely bogus, even illegal, given he's giving medical advice that goes against specific medical advice that has been given to someone I know.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. heh. So anyone wh is practicing TM who shows hallucinatios and delusions shouldn't practice TM, even if under teh care of a non-TMing psychaitrist who is aware of the minimalist research on TM and mental health issues? Sounds like you're usurping the physician's role here, which is illegal and unethical, Peter... On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? I think psychosis, for the most part, is an organic brain disorder whose symptoms appear in the psychological domain. Why does TM make it worse? TM makes it worse because in psychosis a person's ego structures are being over-whelmed. They are losing their psychological constructs that allow them to expereince and interact with the object/consensual world. TM moves the mind towards greater and greater levels of abstraction which overwhelms these mental structures even more. Psychotic people can not even experience ambiguous stimuli (something that does not have clear, definite meaning) without becoming worse in seconds. TM is not an effective intervention with psychotics because it moving the attention in the wrong direction. They need to move the attention into boundaries, not away from them. I developed a very effective intervention with psychotics during an internship I had using what MMY had said during my TTC regarding the breakdown of mind/body coordination in schizophrenics. He said you could help schizophrenics by hitting them with a flower and saying, flower, flower, everytime you hit them. This just sat in my notes for years until I started working in the mental health field with psychotics. I realized what MMY was talking about with this intervention. So in groups I used to pass objects around (e.g., cups, pencils, books, etc) and each person had to hold the object and state what their direct experience of the object was at that moment. No associations, only their direct experience. This, over time, had an amazing effect of radically reducing hallucinations and delusions as noted by myself and other staff members. All very well, but you're generalizing to patients you have never met who are NOT under your supervision. And I'm thinking of a specific individual here, so be warned, you're treading on dangerous territory here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, a really excellent discussion and explication on the subject. Thanks. And completely bogus, even illegal, given he's giving medical advice that goes against specific medical advice that has been given to someone I know. My intent is not to give any sort of medical or psychological advice to anyone in this newsgroup. In my experience and professional opion there are some people that should not practice TM. This is not the end of the world nor some sort of negative assessment of TM. TM is not good for psychotic people to practice. It will make them more psychotic. There are many other things they can do to reduce their level of psychosis, but TM is not one of them. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. heh. So anyone wh is practicing TM who shows hallucinatios and delusions shouldn't practice TM, even if under teh care of a non-TMing psychaitrist who is aware of the minimalist research on TM and mental health issues? Sounds like you're usurping the physician's role here, which is illegal and unethical, Peter... Any psychiatrist who has a patient that is hallucinating and delusional would be off their rocker to allow this patient to practice meditation of any sort. For Christ's sake, they are psychotic. Do you know what this means? Do you have any experience with psychosis? Out of what experience and knowlede base do you speak out of? I treat psychotic patients. I actually know what the f*ck I'm talking about here. Why would you even want a psychotic patient to meditate? So they'll get enlightened? Ha! That's the last thing they'd be interested in. They just want a normal waking state life and to have the hallucinations of spiders in their vagina and snakes up their rectum come to an end. They want the delusions that their brain is rotten and filled with machines to stop. Again, what would be the motivation for a psychotic patient to meditate? Why? So they'll get better? TM will not help psychotic patients, period. It makes them worse. End of screed. On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? I think psychosis, for the most part, is an organic brain disorder whose symptoms appear in the psychological domain. Why does TM make it worse? TM makes it worse because in psychosis a person's ego structures are being over-whelmed. They are losing their psychological constructs that allow them to expereince and interact with the object/consensual world. TM moves the mind towards greater and greater levels of abstraction which overwhelms these mental structures even more. Psychotic people can not even experience ambiguous stimuli (something that does not have clear, definite meaning) without becoming worse in seconds. TM is not an effective intervention with psychotics because it moving the attention in the wrong direction. They need to move the attention into boundaries, not away from them. I developed a very effective intervention with psychotics during an internship I had using what MMY had said during my TTC regarding the breakdown of mind/body coordination in schizophrenics. He said you could help schizophrenics by hitting them with a flower and saying, flower, flower, everytime you hit them. This just sat in my notes for years until I started working in the mental health field with psychotics. I realized what MMY was talking about with this intervention. So in groups I used to pass objects around (e.g., cups, pencils, books, etc) and each person had to hold the object and state what their direct experience of the object was at that moment. No associations, only their direct experience. This, over time, had an amazing effect of radically reducing hallucinations and delusions as noted by myself and other staff members. All very well, but you're generalizing to patients you have never met who are NOT under your supervision. And I'm thinking of a specific individual here, so be warned, you're treading on dangerous territory here. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis reavismarek@ wrote: Peter, a really excellent discussion and explication on the subject. Thanks. And completely bogus, even illegal, given he's giving medical advice that goes against specific medical advice that has been given to someone I know. My intent is not to give any sort of medical or psychological advice to anyone in this newsgroup. In my experience and professional opion there are some people that should not practice TM. This is not the end of the world nor some sort of negative assessment of TM. TM is not good for psychotic people to practice. It will make them more psychotic. There are many other things they can do to reduce their level of psychosis, but TM is not one of them. Of course, what is psychotic? I know someone who takes anti-psychotic medication because it is the only thing that touches his self-destructive behavior associated with his severe anxiety disorder. He even reports occassionally hearing voices that tell him to do self destructive things like cut himself or hit his head against the wall. I have worked very carefully with his psychiatrist and his counselor concerning TM because of the very issue that you raise, and both agree that FOR HIM, TM seems to reduce the symptoms, rather than increase them, so they recommend that he continue his TM practice even though *I* was the one who pointed out the potential issues to THEM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- suziezuzie msilver1951@ wrote: [...] How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. heh. So anyone wh is practicing TM who shows hallucinatios and delusions shouldn't practice TM, even if under teh care of a non-TMing psychaitrist who is aware of the minimalist research on TM and mental health issues? Sounds like you're usurping the physician's role here, which is illegal and unethical, Peter... Any psychiatrist who has a patient that is hallucinating and delusional would be off their rocker to allow this patient to practice meditation of any sort. For Christ's sake, they are psychotic. Do you know what this means? Do you have any experience with psychosis? Out of what experience and knowlede base do you speak out of? I treat psychotic patients. I actually know what the f*ck I'm talking about here. Why would you even want a psychotic patient to meditate? So they'll get enlightened? Ha! That's the last thing they'd be interested in. They just want a normal waking state life and to have the hallucinations of spiders in their vagina and snakes up their rectum come to an end. They want the delusions that their brain is rotten and filled with machines to stop. Again, what would be the motivation for a psychotic patient to meditate? Why? So they'll get better? TM will not help psychotic patients, period. It makes them worse. End of screed. Define psychotic. As I already pointed out I work quite closely (no they are not MY caregivers, but I am intimately related to the patient) with a psychiatrist and counselor whose patient requires treatment with anti-psychotic meds for severe anxiety disorder with occassional symptoms like hearing voices that tell him to do self-destructive things. Both recommended that he continue his TM practice, even after *I* pointed out the potential issues and the spotty research on the subject. You are just plain full of it, and in fact, anyone who uses you professionally is at-risk for dealing with a rather unethcial and unintelligent person, IMHO.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At what level of psychosis would you suggest that someone shouldn't meditate? Any level of psychosis! And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? Delusions, hallucinations, loss of ego boundaries, derealization, depersonalization, ideas of reference, paranoia. I know someone who always looks to their right when they eat as if someone is watching them. They also talk to themselves quite habitually as if another person is in the room. Would you initiate someone like this? Probably not. They need to be assessed by a mental health professional. These could all be symptoms of an underlying psychological disorder. How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? Anyone who is psychotic should not start TM nor continue with the practice. Psychosis is a general term given to someone with symptoms that indicate a loss of contact with object/consensual reality. They present with hallucinations and delusions. On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? I think psychosis, for the most part, is an organic brain disorder whose symptoms appear in the psychological domain. Why does TM make it worse? TM makes it worse because in psychosis a person's ego structures are being over-whelmed. They are losing their psychological constructs that allow them to expereince and interact with the object/consensual world. TM moves the mind towards greater and greater levels of abstraction which overwhelms these mental structures even more. Psychotic people can not even experience ambiguous stimuli (something that does not have clear, definite meaning) without becoming worse in seconds. TM is not an effective intervention with psychotics because it moving the attention in the wrong direction. They need to move the attention into boundaries, not away from them. I developed a very effective intervention with psychotics during an internship I had using what MMY had said during my TTC regarding the breakdown of mind/body coordination in schizophrenics. He said you could help schizophrenics by hitting them with a flower and saying, flower, flower, everytime you hit them. This just sat in my notes for years until I started working in the mental health field with psychotics. I realized what MMY was talking about with this intervention. So in groups I used to pass objects around (e.g., cups, pencils, books, etc) and each person had to hold the object and state what their direct experience of the object was at that moment. No associations, only their direct experience. This, over time, had an amazing effect of radically reducing hallucinations and delusions as noted by myself and other staff members. Mark In Scientology, they put an emphasis on object reality consensus as you put it, exercises that have the practitioner touch things, or demonstrate ideas with clay, etc. I don't encourage Scientology because I have found that on the other hand, their techniques lack the abstraction that I find so fulfilling in TM and I'm convinced that their techniques do not allow for an experience of transcendence. They, like yourself feel that abstract experiences make a person worse. If one isn't grounded personally, ie., psychotic even to a mild degree, this may be true. For myself, after meditating for 35 years, I have to tell you that I love the pure abstraction that I experience, that field of pure bliss consciousness (for a lack of better words). But on the other hand, I must also tell you that any traces of psychotic personality that I may have incurred before starting TM are still with me! The only difference now is that I manage these behaviors, look at them for what they are, witness them, see them clearly as they manifest. This is not to say that I am very psychotic but have very low levels of personality dysfunction, that I as a non professional would diagnose as low level psychotic manifestations. TM has clearly not addressed this but hasn't made it worse either, even on long rounding courses. In my opinion, I became even more convinced that I possessed psychosis from the psychotic episodes experienced after taking strong marijuana or hashish, this being many years ago but nevertheless, I have been curious as to why this experience would manifest except that it was there to begin with and was simply amplified by the presence of drugs. I suppose that if psychosis as you've put it, is organic in origin influencing the psychological domain, then possibly TM cannot heal the physical
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods? I don't really know, Jim. When I wrote the previous post, I was thinking of what they cost when I was a kid and used to buy them regularly. A nickel. --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If only I had a nickel for every self-actualized sidha I've met. I could buy a popsicle. just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods? Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
I remember when you used to be able to get a Hershey's for a nickel! Remember that Seinfeld episode? --- Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If only I had a nickel for every self-actualized sidha I've met. I could buy a popsicle. just curious, what is the price of popsicles in your neck of the woods? The hell with popsicles, I wonder if we should give any soup to guillible fool up in the new tree fort? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I remember when you used to be able to get a Hershey's for a nickel! Remember that Seinfeld episode? I don't remember the episode, but my allowance was 35 cents in 4th grade, so I'd walk a mile or two to the store and load up!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
It's the episode where Jerry tries to buy a new SAAB from Puddy. George tags along and goes beserk when he can't get his TWIX bar out of a vending machine after putting in the coins for it. He goes over to the service window to complain to a guy whose father sits nearby all day long occasionally adding his two bits into conversations, specifically I remember when you used to be able to get a Hershey's for a nickel! and Not Skittles and A Nickel! One of the best lines was when the guy's son says Dad, I told you you could sit here only if you don't talk! --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I remember when you used to be able to get a Hershey's for a nickel! Remember that Seinfeld episode? I don't remember the episode, but my allowance was 35 cents in 4th grade, so I'd walk a mile or two to the store and load up! Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suppose that if psychosis as you've put it, is organic in origin influencing the psychological domain, then possibly TM cannot heal the physical counterpart and therefore the psychosis remains or becomes worse. I don't believe that the exercises you devised cured the physical origins of the disease either but addressed the ego structures as you put it, solidifying the personality, temporarily. The bottom line here is, that if the organism, i.e., nervous system, brain, etc., has been damaged, TM cannot change this but for some, may make the psychosis manageable. Mark Thanks for your response, Mark. I agree with the last part of your post in regard to the MMY inspired exercises with schizophrenics. It doesn't cure them, but it does allow for a higher level of functioning because it places the attention on the concrete, consenual reality rather than on the private chaotic subjective world. And I'm glad you have found TM to help you. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. Are we talking specifically about Debbie here? And if so, are we sure she had become psychotic? --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 27, 2006, at 7:36 AM, Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. Well, and it can be contraindicated in anxiety disorders, borderlines and depression, esp since it can increase anxiety and increase depression. See: Astin J, Shapiro SL, Schwartz GER. Meditation. In: Novey DW, editor. Clinician's complete reference to complementary and alternative medicine. St Louis: Mosby, 2000; 73-85. Potential adverse effects of meditation include psychological symptoms such as tension, anxiety, depression, and confusion. A syndrome termed meditation sickness has been recognised. Meditation is contraindicated in patients with psychotic or borderline personality disorders. Which meditation techniques were involved here?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. Are we talking specifically about Debbie here? And if so, are we sure she had become psychotic? I don't know what happened with Debbie, but psychotics in general do not benefit from unstructered experience. --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. Are we talking specifically about Debbie here? And if so, are we sure she had become psychotic? I don't know what happened with Debbie, but psychotics in general do not benefit from unstructered experience. Yes, I understand that, but it sounded as though you were speaking specifically about Debbie. If not, never mind.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 27, 2006, at 7:36 AM, Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. Well, and it can be contraindicated in anxiety disorders, borderlines and depression, esp since it can increase anxiety and increase depression. See: Astin J, Shapiro SL, Schwartz GER. Meditation. In: Novey DW, editor. Clinician's complete reference to complementary and alternative medicine. St Louis: Mosby, 2000; 73-85. Potential adverse effects of meditation include psychological symptoms such as tension, anxiety, depression, and confusion. A syndrome termed meditation sickness has been recognised. Meditation is contraindicated in patients with psychotic or borderline personality disorders. OF course, aside from relaxation, diffrent meditation techniques have different effects on people, and one kind of meditation might be couner-indicated in one abnormal person, while another form might be neutral or even beneficial. BTW, even relaxation is not a given with various meditation techniques. Tai Chi and the like aside, there are meditation techniques shown to increase metabolism dramatically, so a one-size-fits-all warning obviously doesn't apply.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. That is debateable also. Some people with anxiety disorders get worse doing relaxation techniques while others show no change and some get better. I would expect the same to hold true of psychosis as well.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 27, 2006, at 7:36 AM, Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. Well, and it can be contraindicated in anxiety disorders, borderlines and depression, esp since it can increase anxiety and increase depression. See: Astin J, Shapiro SL, Schwartz GER. Meditation. In: Novey DW, editor. Clinician's complete reference to complementary and alternative medicine. St Louis: Mosby, 2000; 73-85. Potential adverse effects of meditation include psychological symptoms such as tension, anxiety, depression, and confusion. A syndrome termed meditation sickness has been recognised. Meditation is contraindicated in patients with psychotic or borderline personality disorders. Which meditation techniques were involved here? Who knows? My recollecion is that they discuss nothing but case studies and most/all were not published prior to thebook. There isn't much in the literature on the topic: http://tinyurl.com/ve7d7 or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Searchdb=PubMedterm=psychosis+meditation
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. That is debateable also. Some people with anxiety disorders get worse doing relaxation techniques while others show no change and some get better. I would expect the same to hold true of psychosis as well. In fact, a check on pubmed with mindfulness psychosis suggests that mindfulness, at least, is of value to people with pyschosis. Given the 'unstructuredness of the example technique below, I would expect TM to show similar beneficial results for most people:: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=onlineaid=318019 Paul Chadwick a1c1, Katherine Newman Taylor a2 and Nicola Abba a2 a1 University of Southampton Royal South Hants Hospital, Southampton, UK a2 Royal South Hants Hospital, Southampton, UK chadwick p taylor kn abba n Abstract The study's objective was to assess the impact on clinical functioning of group based mindfulness training alongside standard psychiatric care for people with current, subjectively distressing psychosis. Data are presented from the first 10 people to complete one of four Mindfulness Groups, each lasting six sessions. People were taught mindfulness of the breath, and encouraged to let unpleasant experiences come into awareness, to observe and note them, and let them go without judgment, clinging or struggle. There was a significant pre-post drop in scores on the CORE (z=[minus sign]2.655, p=.008). Secondary data indicated improvement in mindfulness skills, and the subjective importance of mindfulness to the group process (N=11). The results are encouraging and warrant further controlled outcome and process research.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. What evidence do you personally have here, numbers please? And again, are we specifically talking about TM and TMers who were previously psychotic? What direct experience have you had with this? I'm looking for general outcomes and not limited examples that we've heard about, ie., MUM cases. Mark
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
At what level of psychosis would you suggest that someone shouldn't meditate? And how do you define psychosis, what symptoms are manifesting in those you checked? For example do they exhibit paranoia or compulsive obsessive behaviors? Are they schizophrenic? I know someone who always looks to their right when they eat as if someone is watching them. They also talk to themselves quite habitually as if another person is in the room. Would you initiate someone like this? How do you judge at what level someone's psychosis becomes a hazard to the practice and that TM would make it worse? On another note, what do you think psychosis is? Why and how does this behavior manifest itself? Do you think it's purely an organic defect that has some expression in the personality such as paranoia? Why does TM make it worse? Mark --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my tradition we don't teach anyone with a mental disorder. Instead we have external healing techniques that can help. I can recall a few psychotics I checked that really shouldn't have been doing TM. I couldn't tell them that of course. Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. --- suziezuzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness. A large body of research has demonstrated that Transcendental Meditation produces comprehensive improvements in mental health, enhancing positive features and reducing various forms of psychological distress. A systematic review of 144 studies found that Transcendental Meditation was markedly more effective in reducing anxiety than other techniques (including progressive muscular relaxation, methods claimed to induce a 'relaxation response', and other forms of meditation) The superiority of Transcendental Meditation remained highly significant when only the strongest and most rigorous studies were included in the analysis. Transcendental Meditation has also consistently been found to reduce depression, hostility, and emotional instability, indicating the growth of a more stable, balanced, and resilient personality In another statistical review of 42 independent research results, Transcendental Meditation was found to be three times as effective as other meditation and relaxation procedures in increasing self- actualization-an overall measure of positive mental health and personal development. Further analysis revealed that the technique is exceptionally effective in developing three independent components of this dimension: emotional maturity, a resilient sense of self, and a positive, integrated perspective on ourselves and the world An exhaustive survey conducted by the Swedish National Health Board found evidence that psychiatric hospital admissions may be much less common among people practicing Transcendental Meditation than in the general population The following excerpt is from Maharishi's book The Science of Being and Art of living Mental health depends upon the normal functioning of the nervous system, so that the full mind is brought to bear upon the external world. The normal functioning of the nervous system results in physical good health so that the body is able to carry out the dictates of the mind, fulfill its desires, and fulfill the purpose of existence. As long as the coordination of the mind with the nervous system is intact, mental health is maintained. When this coordination breaks down, either because of some failure on the part of the mind or of the nervous system, ill health is the result. Such failure of the mind is brought about by a continued inability to fulfill its desires. The main reason for this is weakness in the clarity and power of thought, which thus fails to stimulate the nervous system to the extent that it can successfully carry out the activity needed for fulfillment of the desire. For the most thorough coordination and the most perfect functioning, a profound power of thought on the part of the mind, together with a corresponding efficient executive ability in the nervous system, is required. The integrity of the organic nature of the nervous system is certainly as essential as the power of the mind. As far as their functioning is concerned, they are interdependent. It has been found that while the nervous system remains unchanged, an improvement of the state of the mind results in an improved state of thinking and better coordination between the mind and the world around it. When the full mind is brought out to express itself in the external world, the subject comes into a more
[FairfieldLife] Re: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness.
Peter wrote: Yes, anixiety disorders, depressive disorders, but absolutely not psychosis, it only makes it worse, much worse. --- suziezuzie msilver1951@ wrote: Transcendental Meditation is a natural and effective cure for mental illness. A large body of research has demonstrated that Transcendental Meditation produces comprehensive improvements in mental health, enhancing positive features and reducing various forms of psychological distress. A systematic review of 144 studies found that Transcendental Meditation was markedly more effective in reducing anxiety than other techniques (including progressive muscular relaxation, methods claimed to induce a 'relaxation response', and other forms of meditation) The superiority of Transcendental Meditation remained highly significant when only the strongest and most rigorous studies were included in the analysis. Transcendental Meditation has also consistently been found to reduce depression, hostility, and emotional instability, indicating the growth of a more stable, balanced, and resilient personality In another statistical review of 42 independent research results, Transcendental Meditation was found to be three times as effective as other meditation and relaxation procedures in increasing self- actualization-an overall measure of positive mental health and personal development. Further analysis revealed that the technique is exceptionally effective in developing three independent components of this dimension: emotional maturity, a resilient sense of self, and a positive, integrated perspective on ourselves and the world An exhaustive survey conducted by the Swedish National Health Board found evidence that psychiatric hospital admissions may be much less common among people practicing Transcendental Meditation than in the general population The following excerpt is from Maharishi's book The Science of Being and Art of living Mental health depends upon the normal functioning of the nervous system, so that the full mind is brought to bear upon the external world. The normal functioning of the nervous system results in physical good health so that the body is able to carry out the dictates of the mind, fulfill its desires, and fulfill the purpose of existence. As long as the coordination of the mind with the nervous system is intact, mental health is maintained. When this coordination breaks down, either because of some failure on the part of the mind or of the nervous system, ill health is the result. Such failure of the mind is brought about by a continued inability to fulfill its desires. The main reason for this is weakness in the clarity and power of thought, which thus fails to stimulate the nervous system to the extent that it can successfully carry out the activity needed for fulfillment of the desire. For the most thorough coordination and the most perfect functioning, a profound power of thought on the part of the mind, together with a corresponding efficient executive ability in the nervous system, is required. The integrity of the organic nature of the nervous system is certainly as essential as the power of the mind. As far as their functioning is concerned, they are interdependent. It has been found that while the nervous system remains unchanged, an improvement of the state of the mind results in an improved state of thinking and better coordination between the mind and the world around it. When the full mind is brought out to express itself in the external world, the subject comes into a more perfect and rewarding relationship with the needs of the mind. A mind that is happy and contented produces health. It has also been found that, if the physical state of the nervous system is improved by means of medicine, while the state of mind remains the same, the thinking becomes more profound and the mind functions more energetically and more efficiently. Thus, we find that the mind and the nervous system are interdependent, but since the mind is obviously of a more subtle nature than its organ, the nervous system, it seems wiser to assume that the mind is primary. Any number of factors might interfere with the growth of a tree, but weakness in the seed itself would overshadow them all in importance. In the same way, any number of factors might prevent the fulfillment of a need, but weakness of the power of thought must certainly overshadow the rest. A strong seed will produce a tree even in a desert, while no amount of
