[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[enlightened_dawn11]

brilliant spotlight as usual, emptybill! enjoying the inclusive, yet 
decisive, commentary-- i can hear his hiss from here-- i wonder if 
there is a cobra equivalent for a paper tiger?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "emptybill"  
wrote:
>
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk"  
wrote:
> > Don't share anyone my feelings. And you comparing them to 
shudras, is
> ludicrous.  That's your feeling Bub and don't forget it.
> 
> 
> Gosh Kirk. Did you forget your flute? Like all nagas, when pressed 
even
> slightly, little vaj the naag will kiss you with his fangs. Don't 
like
> the burning sensation rushing up your arm toward your heart? 
Better grab
> that flute! Even if you can't charm the little naag fast enough to 
quiet
> it from striking again, at least you can be quick to smack flat 
that
> vituperative, swaying head.
> 
> And such a vicious little head it is. Made like this by the gods 
to keep
> us honest and forthright. Just ask the little naag – as it chants 
to
> itself while it sways. Knows its purpose doesn't it - self 
proclaims it,
> even in the dark.
> 
> This isn't Buddhist behavior – so I ask you – is it Nath?
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, for the past 16 yrs, I've hung with Tantrikas who got
> started with Trungpa. I've also been on retreats with original
> Trunpa students, innerscapers who served him personally day and 
night
> and drank a lot with him.
> 
> My conclusion is that little naga vaj talks from books and gossip.
> 
> 
> 
> Trungpa was the ultimate enabler and his organization was riddled 
with
> exploitative hustlers. Yet he did important work and led many 
people to
> take up heavy lifting for a chance to get the Tantric goods. The 
funny
> part is that most of them received the higher teachings from other
> lamas. Some however are still humping the goods like porters on a 
safari
> – and indeed they seem to be growing with every teaching they get.
> Most are teachers in their own right – Trungpa brand. It may be
> karma but it is certainly diligence at least and it seems to 
benefit
> them and others.
> 
> 
> So I ask you – notice a distinct disparity here? We can talk 
without
> proclaiming ourselves. Gosh, this must mean we're weak. Maybe 
little
> naga vaj will show us how to be strong, like how to sway our 
heads, what
> angle to rake the fangs – you know, all that inner yoga stuff only
> real masters can teach.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[emptybill]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk"  wrote:
> Don't share anyone my feelings. And you comparing them to shudras, is
ludicrous.  That's your feeling Bub and don't forget it.


Gosh Kirk. Did you forget your flute? Like all nagas, when pressed even
slightly, little vaj the naag will kiss you with his fangs. Don't like
the burning sensation rushing up your arm toward your heart? Better grab
that flute! Even if you can't charm the little naag fast enough to quiet
it from striking again, at least you can be quick to smack flat that
vituperative, swaying head.

And such a vicious little head it is. Made like this by the gods to keep
us honest and forthright. Just ask the little naag – as it chants to
itself while it sways. Knows its purpose doesn't it - self proclaims it,
even in the dark.

This isn't Buddhist behavior – so I ask you – is it Nath?



By the way, for the past 16 yrs, I've hung with Tantrikas who got
started with Trungpa. I've also been on retreats with original
Trunpa students, innerscapers who served him personally day and night
and drank a lot with him.

My conclusion is that little naga vaj talks from books and gossip.



Trungpa was the ultimate enabler and his organization was riddled with
exploitative hustlers. Yet he did important work and led many people to
take up heavy lifting for a chance to get the Tantric goods. The funny
part is that most of them received the higher teachings from other
lamas. Some however are still humping the goods like porters on a safari
– and indeed they seem to be growing with every teaching they get.
Most are teachers in their own right – Trungpa brand. It may be
karma but it is certainly diligence at least and it seems to benefit
them and others.


So I ask you – notice a distinct disparity here? We can talk without
proclaiming ourselves. Gosh, this must mean we're weak. Maybe little
naga vaj will show us how to be strong, like how to sway our heads, what
angle to rake the fangs – you know, all that inner yoga stuff only
real masters can teach.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[amarnath]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  wrote:
>
> You all should worship at the lotus feet of Sri Vaj because he is
delightfully
> squeezing-out the last of your samskaras and is actually your Sat
Guru.
> >>>

Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were
tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great
lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed
passage with you? (Walt Whitman, 1819-1892 American Poet)


Most of the time your friend agrees with you and supports you - so it is
not hard to love him. But your opponent disagrees with you; he believes
that you are wrong; he sees your weaknesses and would do his best to
exploit them. If you have a blind spot, you can be sure he sees it. To
put it simply, your enemy is not willing to give you the benefit of the
doubt - he is, therefore, your very best teacher. Your enemy reflects
back to you everything that you do not like about yourself. He shows you
exactly where your fears and insecurities lie. If you listen to what
your enemy is saying to you, you will know exactly where you must make
corrections in yourself. Only one who opposes you thus can be such an
effective teacher.

Why do I say 'love' your enemy. I say love your enemy because if you do
not love him you won't value the gift he brings to you. No one can go
through life without both allies and opponents. A good ally is willing
to oppose you. And a good opponent is the very best ally. When you learn
to love your enemy, you demonstrate your willingness to look at all of
the dark places within your mind. Your enemy is simply a mirror into
which you look until gradually the angry face that you see smiles back
at you. To make peace with your enemies, you must learn to see through
their eyes, as well as through your own. Then you will develop
compassion and move beyond conflict. Remember, you do not have to agree
with your enemy to make peace with them. (The Christ Mind through Paul
Ferrini) 

In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher. (Dalai
Lama, 1935 Tibet Religious Leader Resides In India)

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Kirk wrote:

Don't share anyone my feelings. And you comparing them to shudras,  
is ludicrous.  That's your feeling Bub and don't forget it.



No, it was their feelings, not mine.

I was not there on staff ever.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

Don't share anyone my feelings. And you comparing them to shudras, is 
ludicrous.  That's your feeling Bub and don't forget it. 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Vaj 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright




  On Feb 23, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Kirk wrote:


Vaj, that is bullshit. Plain and simple. While workers who worked to get 
their programs really worked hard, they sometimes got to their goal.  Before 
MMY made them all recert. But just because some suckers got passed over they 
still had the kundalini supporting them. You can't say Ma was wrong. So let 
some steam out of the old pie hole. You're gettin old and cranky. Starting to 
remind me of this WW2 vet. All he talks about is how he never had the 
opportunity to kill a real live Germain.




  I didn't say they didn't get their goal. Most were able to get the sidhi 
course. It's how they felt they were treated. I've heard it repeatedly, so 
don't be so callous to  discount their feelings. They were real and they felt 
demeaned.


  I'll be sure to share with them you're feelings about them being like WW II 
vets, as we still do talk. One was actually a Vietnam Vet. 



  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

Kirk wrote:
> Vaj, that is bullshit. Plain and simple... 
>
What would either of you two be knowing anything 
about the 'Trung'? I thought Vaj was a 'Nath'
and you were a 'Kadam'. Are you saying that you're
a Trung as well - this doesn't even make any sense.
Apparently the Naths and the Kadams can't stand to
be in the same room with the Dalai.

Sure, there are people who met Trungpa in the early 
days when there were only few students around him 
to ask him some dumb questions, but's it's rare 
these days to be sitting next to a Tulku, much less 
a Rinpoche, enlightened or no - that's my point. 

I've read "Double Mirror" by Stephen T. Butterfield, 
at least twice, perhaps the definitive account of 
all Trungpa's exploits over the years. Butterfield 
was a member of Trungpa's 'inner circle' for over 
ten years and rose to the rank of a assistant to 
the Vajra Regent, Osel Tendzing, and Butterfield 
only met Trungpa once, face-to-face, in an airport, 
after a lecture up in Nova Scotia. 

According to Allen Ginsburg's auto-biography, 
Ginsberg himself only met Trungpa one-on-one, twice, 
once in a gay bar in New York City, and the other 
time in Trungpa's apartment in Boulder, and neither 
time did they meditate together!

Read more:

Buddhist Tantra world of the Trungpa Tulku:
http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/tibet.htm

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 23, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Kirk wrote:

Vaj, that is bullshit. Plain and simple. While workers who worked  
to get their programs really worked hard, they sometimes got to  
their goal.  Before MMY made them all recert. But just because some  
suckers got passed over they still had the kundalini supporting  
them. You can't say Ma was wrong. So let some steam out of the old  
pie hole. You're gettin old and cranky. Starting to remind me of  
this WW2 vet. All he talks about is how he never had the  
opportunity to kill a real live Germain.



I didn't say they didn't get their goal. Most were able to get the  
sidhi course. It's how they felt they were treated. I've heard it  
repeatedly, so don't be so callous to  discount their feelings. They  
were real and they felt demeaned.


I'll be sure to share with them you're feelings about them being like  
WW II vets, as we still do talk. One was actually a Vietnam Vet. 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

Vaj, that is bullshit. Plain and simple. While workers who worked to get their 
programs really worked hard, they sometimes got to their goal.  Before MMY made 
them all recert. But just because some suckers got passed over they still had 
the kundalini supporting them. You can't say Ma was wrong. So let some steam 
out of the old pie hole. You're gettin old and cranky. Starting to remind me of 
this WW2 vet. All he talks about is how he never had the opportunity to kill a 
real live Germain. 

  - Original Message - 
  From: Vaj 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright




  On Feb 23, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote:


Curtis wrote:

  When India elects a Sudra as their leader they 

  can brag too.




There are no 'sudras', Curtis - you're just 

perpetuating the myth like you were trained to do. 

But in fact, almost all of India's leaders have 

been dark-skinned. 





  According to friends who worked on staff at MIU for very low wages, and 
supposedly to get on course, i.e. pay for the TM-Sidhi course, they were 
treated like shudras, like lesser-evolved people, who shouldn't be touched or 
engaged. The idea, they felt, was that more evolved people would naturally 
receive the "support of nature" and so they were naturally more prosperous. If 
you lacked money to the extent that you had to (essentially) beg to get on a 
course or be able to hang at MIU/ meditate in the domes, you were in effect 
(not only a slave of sorts), an untouchable. Or at least that's the way they 
felt they were treated. It's an unspoken caste system in the same sense that 
racism can be covert and engrained without necessarily needing out loud racial 
slurs or comments.


  Perhaps we should start calling it the apaurusheya-jati?



  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 23, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote:


Curtis wrote:

When India elects a Sudra as their leader they
can brag too.


There are no 'sudras', Curtis - you're just
perpetuating the myth like you were trained to do.
But in fact, almost all of India's leaders have
been dark-skinned.



According to friends who worked on staff at MIU for very low wages,  
and supposedly to get on course, i.e. pay for the TM-Sidhi course,  
they were treated like shudras, like lesser-evolved people, who  
shouldn't be touched or engaged. The idea, they felt, was that more  
evolved people would naturally receive the "support of nature" and so  
they were naturally more prosperous. If you lacked money to the  
extent that you had to (essentially) beg to get on a course or be  
able to hang at MIU/ meditate in the domes, you were in effect (not  
only a slave of sorts), an untouchable. Or at least that's the way  
they felt they were treated. It's an unspoken caste system in the  
same sense that racism can be covert and engrained without  
necessarily needing out loud racial slurs or comments.


Perhaps we should start calling it the apaurusheya-jati?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Jason]

 
 
  Amigo, how are you.?  Slavery in the west in ancient times was individual 
based slavery, and in modern times was racial-based slavery.

  Caste system in India was Social-based community Slavery.  The individual 
was free to go anywhere he wanted, and live anywhere he wanted, provided he did 
the duty allocated to his community.

--- shempmcgurk  wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 11:52 AM

Maharishi not only supported the caste system but slavery as well:

http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/FairfieldL ife/message/ 164656
 
> --- ruthsimplicity   wrote:
> >
> > ---  "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:

> > > And to
> > > hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a 
real
> > > disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> > > generation. (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > My TB friends every once in a while mention something positive 
about
> > caste systems. Things like the value of reducing the stress of 
having
> > to find your place in the world. Or the value of having fathers 
pass
> > on knowledge to their sons. Somehow, women seem to be left 
out. :)
> 
> I am reading some books on the "reconstruction" era of the South. 
> They have the same arguments about how much happier freed slaves 
would
> be with someone to guide them because of the inferiority of their
> race. They even have the arguments about how much better off they
> would be to know their place in the next world too!
> 
> Devious humans are so predictable when they try to run a number on
> other people, same raps, same scripts. And the same bullshit
> oppression wrapped up in the smiling assurance that it is all for
> "your own good" cuz those in power know best.
> 


 
 


  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

Curtis wrote:
> When India elects a Sudra as their leader they 
> can brag too.
>
There are no 'sudras', Curtis - you're just 
perpetuating the myth like you were trained to do. 
But in fact, almost all of India's leaders have 
been dark-skinned. 

You seem to have confused the caste system with 
racism. It's the West that is guilty of racism, 
not India. From what I've read, there has never 
been slavery in India, but it took the West 
thousands of years to elect a black leader. India 
is the world's largest democracy.

You don't have any right tp be criticizing the 
Indians for their religious beliefs - it's none of 
your business what Indians believe - you're not 
the world's moral police.

Based on the division of labor, it's the duty of 
warriors to fight; it's the duty of TMers to fly. 
But it's not the duty of 'singers' to tell other 
people what religious beliefs they should have. 

So, rise up or shut your pie-hole! 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

boo_lives wrote:
> Yeah, mmy's religious views have nothing to do 
> with his translation and commentary on the Gita...
>
Listen to me 'boo' - the Marshy's religious views 
and your actions as a follower of the Marshy cult 
have nothing to do with 'TM practice'. 

Why are you making this stuff up - you're making 
Vaj look honest and forthright. 

The practice of TM doesn't have anything to do 
with the 'Gita' or the 'Marshy'; TM doesn't have 
anything to do with the 'caste system'. That's 
the point. 

If you taught otherwise, then you sucked as a TM 
teacher. TM is a relaxation technique. It's that 
simple.

Curtis wrote:
> > > (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> > >
> > Are you saying, Curtis, that you taught the 'caste 
> > system' as part of the TM practice? If so, you sucked 
> > as a TM teacher! The so-called caste system has nothing 
> > to do with TM. And the Marshy's religious views have 
> > nothing to do with anything but his own mindset. 
> >
> Yeah, mmy's religious views have nothing to do with his translation
> and commentary on the Gita, a central hindu scripture, nothing to do
> with Gita study classes, a routine offering of tm centers for yrs,
> nothing to do with the 1000s of hrs of lectures and numerous
> publications the tmo has put out on "maharishi's vedic science",
> vedas having some religious aspect I believe,  nothing to do with
> the tmo's focus on developing groups of pundits throughout india
> and in ffld who spend their days chanting traditional hindu 
> ceremonies to gods, and nothing to do with the tmo's tv and
> webcasts all of which feature floating hindu gods and goddesses,
> and nothing to do with mmy crowning a King Ram to run his movt.
> Yeah, mmy's religious views have nothing to do with any of this,
> just his own mindset.  This from a guy who's been with mmy since
> the 60s and admits to spending yrs and yrs on tm forums, this guy
> doesn't think mmy's religious views has anything to
> do with his teachings.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

geezerfreak wrote:
> Trying to communicate with him is a 
> complete waste of your time.
>
What is it about 'you sucked as a TM 
teacher' that you don't understand?

You took a perfectly good yoga relaxation 
technique and turned it into the 'cult 
of the Marshy', tried to make it into 
a 'creation science' religion to be 
taught in public schools. 

You guys really screwed things up.

You sucked as TM teachers; Marshy sucks; 
the TMO sucks and all 'Governors' suck, 
big time; you suck as a debater.

You took money for nonsense syllables 
and sent the money to India to the 
Marshy's relatives. 

You promised us 'enlightenment' in 5-7 
years. You sucked as a TM teachers.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[geezerfreak]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J. Williams"
>  wrote:
> >
> > So, you're guilty of promoting the Aryan caste 
> > system in the name of TM instruction. If so, you 
> > really sucked as a TM teacher, that's all I'm 
> > saying, Curtis. 
> 
> You are being a tiresome dick, Richard.  
> 
> 

Bingo Curtis. Trying to communicate with him is a complete waste of your time. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[boo_lives]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J. Williams"
 wrote:
>
> Curtis wrote:
> > (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> >
> Are you saying, Curtis, that you taught the 'caste 
> system' as part of the TM practice? If so, you sucked 
> as a TM teacher! The so-called caste system has nothing 
> to do with TM. And the Marshy's religious views have 
> nothing to do with anything but his own mindset. 
> 
Yeah, mmy's religious views have nothing to do with his translation
and commentary on the Gita, a central hindu scripture, nothing to do
with Gita study classes, a routine offering of tm centers for yrs,
nothing to do with the 1000s of hrs of lectures and numerous
publications the tmo has put out on "maharishi's vedic science", vedas
having some religious aspect I believe,  nothing to do with the tmo's
focus on developing groups of pundits throughout india and in ffld who
spend their days chanting traditional hindu ceremonies to gods, and
nothing to do with the tmo's tv and webcasts all of which feature
floating hindu gods and goddesses, and nothing to do with mmy crowning
a King Ram to run his movt. Yeah, mmy's religious views  have nothing
to do with any of this, just his own mindset.  This from a guy who's
been with mmy since the 60s and admits to spending yrs and yrs on tm
forums, this guy doesn't think mmy's religious views has anything to
do with his teachings.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

> > So, you're guilty of promoting the Aryan caste 
> > system in the name of TM instruction. If so, you 
> > really sucked as a TM teacher, that's all I'm 
> > saying, Curtis. 
> >
Curtis wrote:
> You are being a tiresome dick, Richard.  
> 
Hey, I'm just agreeing with you, Curtis - don't
be so defensive - you sucked as a TM teacher. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J. Williams"
 wrote:
>
> So, you're guilty of promoting the Aryan caste 
> system in the name of TM instruction. If so, you 
> really sucked as a TM teacher, that's all I'm 
> saying, Curtis. 

You are being a tiresome dick, Richard.  


>  
> Curtis wrote:
> > When I taught TM I had a 300 member council of 
> > governors breathing down my neck every second.  
> > They made sure I was a good little robot. I was 
> > the most monitored center chairman in the US at 
> > the DC center...
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog"  
wrote:

> The Jaimini Sutras never made a whit of sense
> reading them straight up. But listening to them
> during rest seemed to flip flop my consciousness
> to and fro, as they drew me into a thread of logic,
> dropped the thread into a void of "on the other
> hand" then floated me into a change of direction,
> letting go of logic only to find another logic,
> letting go again and again.  
> 
> Rick, if you think you can tell an interesting
> story of Maharishi's life and times using FFLife
> material, start petitioning the gods of editorial
> wizardry for help. It would read like a mishmash
> of Jaimini Sutras competing for logic on the
> battlefield of haters and lovers, never letting
> go, eternally flipping opposite sides of the same
> coin, each camp floating an agenda of truths,
> half-truths, lies, hearsay and speculation. Good
> luck with that.

The result would probably be the most accurate
conceivable account of Maharishi's life and times:
not a thing to hang onto, not a thing to be sure
of, an infinite swirling cloud of possibilities
that never coalesces into anything definitive.

Brilliant post, raunchydog. I was racking my
brains trying to think of a way to put this but
couldn't even come close. Never had the pleasure
of listening to Jaimini, but your analogy, 
together with the quotes and what I was struggling
to express about "FFL: The Book," gives me a
glimpse. Great stuff.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

So, you're guilty of promoting the Aryan caste 
system in the name of TM instruction. If so, you 
really sucked as a TM teacher, that's all I'm 
saying, Curtis. 
 
Curtis wrote:
> When I taught TM I had a 300 member council of 
> governors breathing down my neck every second.  
> They made sure I was a good little robot. I was 
> the most monitored center chairman in the US at 
> the DC center...  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J. Williams"
 wrote:
>
> Curtis wrote:
> > (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> >
> Are you saying, Curtis, that you taught the 'caste 
> system' as part of the TM practice? If so, you sucked 
> as a TM teacher! The so-called caste system has nothing 
> to do with TM. And the Marshy's religious views have 
> nothing to do with anything but his own mindset. 

Ever read the Gita commentary?  Ever lead a class in Gita study or
attend one in the movement Richard?  I was poking fun at myself for
believing that the oppressive caste system had cosmic redeeming
features because Maharishis said so.

> 
> So, what exactly were you teaching? 

This whole angle is tiresome Richard.  When I taught TM I had a 300
member council of governors breathing down my neck every second.  They
made sure I was a good little robot.  I was the most monitored center
chairman in the US at the DC center.  So you can drop the whole angle
that I was deviating one inch from the party line when I taught.  And
that included explaining to people at advanced lectures and residence
courses why Maharishi included a sales pitch for the virtues of the 
caste system in his commentary.  

> 
> The 'caste system' in modern India isn't based on skin 
> color - it's based on a division of labor, just like most 
> of the rest of the world. The only difference is that in 
> India the people prefer to base the division of labor on 
> birth circumstances, unlike in the West, which prefers
> to base labor on the color of your skin. 

And then we made laws to protect oppressed people from being
discriminated against.  It isn't perfect but it is a long way from
what goes on in India's caste system.  But if you are arguing that we
have done bad things to groups of people so we shouldn't criticize
other countries for doing bad things...WTF?
> 
> But, when you object to the Marshy's religious views, 
> you've got to remember that it was the people of the 
> Western world that imposed the caste system on the native 
> inhabitants of India. It's 2009 and an the U.S. has just
> elected it's first black president! Go figure.

OK, the Aryan invaders imposed the caste system on the Dravidians. 
What is your point? I don't know enough about the original people of
India to know if they had a better social system or not.  It could
have been more oppressive for all I know. 
When India elects a Sudra as their leader they can brag too.  The
reason for Obama's ability to be president has to do with the
educational support which the lower castes in India do not get.

Why don't you knock off the Pa Kettle routine Richard, and post
without all the accusatory drama?


> 
> > It is such weird irony that it was the baby boomer hippies who made
> > him famous when his views were so conservative and in many cases
> > represented the opposite of the egalitarian hippie movement.  And to
> > hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> > disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> > generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> > 
> > Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us longer. 
> > Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.
> >
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> >
> > From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
> > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:33 PM
> > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest, non-
> > blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the
> > same "There were great moments, but there were
> > also these moments over here that weren't so 
> > great" perspective?
> > 
> > How long will it take before one gets written?
> > *Will* one ever get written?
> > 
> > Someone could put together such a book just from all the material
posted on
> > FFL. And certainly our combined experience with him could result
in such a
> > book.
> >
> 
> 
> Too many agendas.
> 
> 
> Lawson
>

It would read like the Jaimini Sutras: 

1 Now is the enquiry of dharma [the Maharishi story].

2 The dharma [the Maharishi story]is an object distinguished by a command.

3 The examination of its [the story's] cause.

4 The perception is the knowledge [of Maharishi] which one has by the
senses coming in contact with the soul. It is not the cause of dharma
[the Maharishi story] by reason of acquiring knowledge of the thing
existing.

5 Certainly there is eternal connection.

6 One set says [Anti-TM'ers] that it is an action; by reason of seeing
it there.

7 By reason of no stability.

8 By reason of the word 'make'.

9 By reason of its being heard simultaneously by other beings.

10 And on account of the original and modified forms [of Maharishi].

11 Its increase by reason of many persons [Anti-TM'ers] pronouncing it.

12 On the other hand there is a reasoning of equal force [Pro-TM'ers].


The Jaimini Sutras never made a whit of sense reading them straight
up. But listening to them during rest seemed to flip flop my
consciousness to and fro, as they drew me into a thread of logic,
dropped the thread into a void of "on the other hand" then floated me
into a change of direction, letting go of logic only to find another
logic, letting go again and again.  

Rick, if you think you can tell an interesting story of Maharishi's
life and times using FFLife material, start petitioning the gods of
editorial wizardry for help. It would read like a mishmash of Jaimini
Sutras competing for logic on the battlefield of haters and lovers,
never letting go, eternally flipping opposite sides of the same coin,
each camp floating an agenda of truths, half-truths, lies, hearsay and
speculation. Good luck with that.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Richard J. Williams]

Curtis wrote:
> (Oops I was one of THEM!)
>
Are you saying, Curtis, that you taught the 'caste 
system' as part of the TM practice? If so, you sucked 
as a TM teacher! The so-called caste system has nothing 
to do with TM. And the Marshy's religious views have 
nothing to do with anything but his own mindset. 

So, what exactly were you teaching? 

The 'caste system' in modern India isn't based on skin 
color - it's based on a division of labor, just like most 
of the rest of the world. The only difference is that in 
India the people prefer to base the division of labor on 
birth circumstances, unlike in the West, which prefers
to base labor on the color of your skin. 

But, when you object to the Marshy's religious views, 
you've got to remember that it was the people of the 
Western world that imposed the caste system on the native 
inhabitants of India. It's 2009 and an the U.S. has just
elected it's first black president! Go figure.

> It is such weird irony that it was the baby boomer hippies who made
> him famous when his views were so conservative and in many cases
> represented the opposite of the egalitarian hippie movement.  And to
> hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> 
> Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us longer. 
> Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.
> 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  wrote:
> 
> > Someone could put together such
> > a book just from all the material posted on FFL. And certainly our
> combined
> > experience with him could result in such a book.
> >
> 
> Yup!  Turq could gather the materials and write it and Judy could edit
> it!  :)

Hehe ;-) 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[enlightened_dawn11]

yep, the old guy is going right off the deep end, getting more and 
more abusive and hallucinatory with each of his posts today-- really 
flipping out! see ya Bar Bar...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> 
> 
> > And now a few people are even threatening
> > reprisals. Nabby's making up "smear stories"
> > about people here who dare to speak their
> > minds. 
> 
> If anyone is wondering; this is a complete lie. From a very angry 
and 
> frustrated individual who makes up stories as he is realizing that 
as 
> he is nearing the end of his life he will leave spiriually 
emptyhanded. 
> He spends his last years pouring venom on the only Master he ever 
met 
> in envy of those who did stick around and are enjoying the 
benefits.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:


> And now a few people are even threatening
> reprisals. Nabby's making up "smear stories"
> about people here who dare to speak their
> minds. 

If anyone is wondering; this is a complete lie. From a very angry and 
frustrated individual who makes up stories as he is realizing that as 
he is nearing the end of his life he will leave spiriually emptyhanded. 
He spends his last years pouring venom on the only Master he ever met 
in envy of those who did stick around and are enjoying the benefits. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  
wrote:
> > 
> > > Someone could put together such
> > > a book just from all the material posted on FFL.
> > > And certainly our combined experience with him
> > > could result in such a book.
> > 
> > Yup!  Turq could gather the materials and write it and Judy 
> > could edit it!  :)
> 
> For the record, Ruth, should such a project
> arise, I would refuse to have anything to do
> with the process of selecting what should or
> should not be included. If I did, the final
> product would be accused of having been
> "tainted" by my subjective bias and "agenda."
> 
> On the other hand, I would have no problem 
> at all with Judy editing it. Even though she
> has made a career of denying that she *has*
> subjective bias or an "agenda" :-), I have 
> enough lingering faith in her to assume that 
> she could put both (or the absence of them) 
> aside long enough to edit a simple book.

Actually I've never denied either; I've said
only that I do my damndest to be objective.

And I don't have the faith Barry does that I'd
be able to put my biases aside were I to edit
such a book. It would have to be some kind of
joint effort, sort of like Wikipedia when an
entry on a controversial topic is being hashed
through, but with the aim of balancing
*subjective* takes on the issues rather than
strict, documentable factual accuracy.

Pragmatically, though, even aside from the
enormous technical editorial difficulties
involved in selecting representative
material from the probably millions of words
in the archives and making sure it's presented
in sufficient context, I suspect a Wikipedia-
like process would just end up as a mirror of
what goes on in the forum now--endless disputes
with lots of hostility and no resolution.

That might be fascinating and stimulating for
the folks involved in the editing, but I have
trouble imagining it would ever yield anything
like a finished book.

The only remoately practical approach I can
think of would be go to through the archives
and pull out all the TM-related material,
omitting the many off-topic discussions; then
make the TM-related material as readable as
possible by getting rid of all the quoting and
formatting the contributions properly, so they
looked like normal conversations. Even that
would be difficult, because the exchanges are
rarely strictly linear.

Perhaps it could be organized topically, with
cross-references when necessary from one
topical thread to others that dealt with the
first topic peripherally.

But the volume would still be humongous, way 
too long for a book. It *might* work as a
Web-based product designed for browsing,
however. And it would require either someone
or several someones working on it full-time,
or a group effort by many people working on it
part-time.

I'm dubious that it could ever be accomplished,
but it's fun to imagine ways to go about it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[enlightened_dawn11]

for every idea this drunk proposes, there is a ready answer, his own 
post 208801: "I *am* a bullshit artist..."-- Barry Wright

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  
wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
> > > > 
> > > > Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest, non-
> > > > blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the
> > > > same "There were great moments, but there were
> > > > also these moments over here that weren't so 
> > > > great" perspective?
> > > > 
> > > > How long will it take before one gets written?
> > > > *Will* one ever get written?
> > > 
> > > Someone could put together such a book just from
> > > all the material posted on FFL. And certainly our
> > > combined experience with him could result in such
> > > a book.
> > 
> > I completely agree, Rick, and along with 
> > geezerfreak congratulate you once again
> > on having created and maintained such a
> > forum. It's one of the few forums on the
> > planet where one *can* discuss TM and
> > Maharishi and the whole TMO history with-
> > out fear of reprisal.
> 
> > "TM defenders" go out of their way to
> > demonize those who dare to tell the truth
> > *as they saw it*.
> > 
> > And why? Because they are AFRAID of the
> > "book" that is Fairfield Life. They want it
> > to GO AWAY, and stop revealing the "other
> > side" of the pretense.
> 
> > I think in the long run it is conceivable
> > that Fairfield Life may have helped to create
> > more spiritual seekers who have achieved some
> > balance in the world than the TM movement
> > ever did. At least here they can speak their
> > minds without fear of reprisal.
> >
> > Unless the Tom Palls and the Judy Steins and
> > the Jim Flanegins and the Nabluses of the
> > world have their way, that is. They want to
> > make this place as repressive an environment
> > and as unaccepting of Off The Program thought
> > as the TM movement itself.
> 
> It sure isn't what *I* want, and I seriously
> doubt it's what any of the others listed above
> want either. There are other TM-related venues
> on the Web that limit the discussion to On the
> Program thought; we'd be participating in those
> rather than FFL if that's what we enjoyed.
> 
> I'd be very disappointed if FFL "went away."
> It's the constant clash of ideas and experiences
> that makes it so interesting and entertaining.
> 
> I would also be thrilled if FFL could somehow
> be made into a book, as long as it were
> representative of a good cross-section of
> the perspectives and debates here.
> 
> > Inquisitors the whole fucking lot of them,
> > with the same tactics and the same mindset
> > as the ones who tried to silence thought in
> > the Middle Ages. Fuck them and the holier-
> > than-thou, petty tyrant horses they rode in on.
> 
> But one has to wonder, given this kind of
> vitriol, whether what at least some of the TM
> critics want is a forum from which *TM defenders*
> were excluded and only Off the Program thought
> was permitted.
> 
> I tend to think such a forum would end up being
> just as boring as those that permit only On the
> Program thought.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> >
> > > On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
> > > 
> > > Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest, non-
> > > blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the
> > > same "There were great moments, but there were
> > > also these moments over here that weren't so 
> > > great" perspective?
> > > 
> > > How long will it take before one gets written?
> > > *Will* one ever get written?
> > 
> > Someone could put together such a book just from
> > all the material posted on FFL. And certainly our
> > combined experience with him could result in such
> > a book.
> 
> I completely agree, Rick, and along with 
> geezerfreak congratulate you once again
> on having created and maintained such a
> forum. It's one of the few forums on the
> planet where one *can* discuss TM and
> Maharishi and the whole TMO history with-
> out fear of reprisal.

> "TM defenders" go out of their way to
> demonize those who dare to tell the truth
> *as they saw it*.
> 
> And why? Because they are AFRAID of the
> "book" that is Fairfield Life. They want it
> to GO AWAY, and stop revealing the "other
> side" of the pretense.

> I think in the long run it is conceivable
> that Fairfield Life may have helped to create
> more spiritual seekers who have achieved some
> balance in the world than the TM movement
> ever did. At least here they can speak their
> minds without fear of reprisal.
>
> Unless the Tom Palls and the Judy Steins and
> the Jim Flanegins and the Nabluses of the
> world have their way, that is. They want to
> make this place as repressive an environment
> and as unaccepting of Off The Program thought
> as the TM movement itself.

It sure isn't what *I* want, and I seriously
doubt it's what any of the others listed above
want either. There are other TM-related venues
on the Web that limit the discussion to On the
Program thought; we'd be participating in those
rather than FFL if that's what we enjoyed.

I'd be very disappointed if FFL "went away."
It's the constant clash of ideas and experiences
that makes it so interesting and entertaining.

I would also be thrilled if FFL could somehow
be made into a book, as long as it were
representative of a good cross-section of
the perspectives and debates here.

> Inquisitors the whole fucking lot of them,
> with the same tactics and the same mindset
> as the ones who tried to silence thought in
> the Middle Ages. Fuck them and the holier-
> than-thou, petty tyrant horses they rode in on.

But one has to wonder, given this kind of
vitriol, whether what at least some of the TM
critics want is a forum from which *TM defenders*
were excluded and only Off the Program thought
was permitted.

I tend to think such a forum would end up being
just as boring as those that permit only On the
Program thought.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  wrote:
> 
> > Someone could put together such
> > a book just from all the material posted on FFL. And certainly 
> > our combined experience with him could result in such a book.
> 
> Yup!  Turq could gather the materials and write it and Judy 
> could edit it!  :)

For the record, Ruth, should such a project
arise, I would refuse to have anything to do
with the process of selecting what should or
should not be included. If I did, the final
product would be accused of having been
"tainted" by my subjective bias and "agenda."

On the other hand, I would have no problem 
at all with Judy editing it. Even though she
has made a career of denying that she *has*
subjective bias or an "agenda" :-), I have 
enough lingering faith in her to assume that 
she could put both (or the absence of them) 
aside long enough to edit a simple book.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[enlightened_dawn11]

who would pay other people to read it though?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  wrote:
> 
> > Someone could put together such
> > a book just from all the material posted on FFL. And certainly our
> combined
> > experience with him could result in such a book.
> >
> 
> Yup!  Turq could gather the materials and write it and Judy could 
edit
> it!  :)
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  wrote:

> Someone could put together such
> a book just from all the material posted on FFL. And certainly our
combined
> experience with him could result in such a book.
>

Yup!  Turq could gather the materials and write it and Judy could edit
it!  :)  

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Peter]

--- On Sat, 2/21/09, Rick Archer  wrote:
From: Rick Archer 
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 12:41 AM













 
 












From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:33 PM

To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright 





   







Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest,
non-

blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the

same "There were great moments, but there were

also these moments over here that weren't so 

great" perspective?



How long will it take before one gets written?

*Will* one ever get written?

SSRS's biography just came out in India. Its in Hindi though. I'm very curious 
how its written because many of his followers, especially Indians, speak of him 
in these cloyingly sweet terms that I find very off-putting.  









Someone could put together such
a book just from all the material posted on FFL. And certainly our combined
experience with him could result in such a book.  
























 




  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>
> From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
> 
>  
> 
> Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest, non-
> blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the
> same "There were great moments, but there were
> also these moments over here that weren't so 
> great" perspective?
> 
> How long will it take before one gets written?
> *Will* one ever get written?
> 
> Someone could put together such a book just from all the material posted on
> FFL. And certainly our combined experience with him could result in such a
> book.
>


Too many agendas.


Lawson

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:33 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest, non-
blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the
same "There were great moments, but there were
also these moments over here that weren't so 
great" perspective?

How long will it take before one gets written?
*Will* one ever get written?

Someone could put together such a book just from all the material posted on
FFL. And certainly our combined experience with him could result in such a
book. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us longer. 
> > Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.
>  
> I agree completely, mmy was not cool. But he was a natural marketer
> and knew to hide his fundamentalist views early on, so I'm not too
> down on myself for being fooled. Plus I feel he really changed over
> time. This is heresy to tmers who view the man as absolute
> enlightened non-changing, but like everyone he changed as he got
> older. 2 main factors I think: externally, power corrupts and
> absolute power corrupts absolutely, and internally a deflected
> kundalini energy flow which gives fantastic "spiritual experiences" 
> in youth but being unintegrated (an experience not a life lived) 
> leads increasingly to imbalanced mental/emotional states later on.
> You see this a lot in successful, high shakti, charismatic gurus 
> who when they come on the scene are clearly drawing on some 
> internal spiritual energy but who act increasingly nuts over time.

Well said.

It's a fascinating phenomenon to watch. I wonder
sometimes whether anyone who was close enough to
him to have seen these changes over time first
hand will ever have the balls to write about it
honestly.

That, after all, was what I had to do when writing
about Rama. He, too went through a period of high,
high experiences, so high that you got high just
being in the same room with them. But over time,
possibly for the very reasons you named above, as
far as I could tell the experiences faded or got
warped and he lost it heavily. IMO, of course.

I could have written a glossed-over, blissninny 
version of my experience with the man for 14 years,
and skipped the parts where he got crazy. Other of
his students did just that. But the man asked me
to write a book about him, and I foolishly said
yes. It was a commitment I was stuck with even 
after he died. And the only way I could figure
out *to* write it (and get that monkey off my 
back) was to tell the *whole* story, as I saw it, 
and tell it as honestly as I could. 

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have an honest, non-
blissninny biography of Maharishi, told from the
same "There were great moments, but there were
also these moments over here that weren't so 
great" perspective?

How long will it take before one gets written?
*Will* one ever get written?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[boo_lives]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
 wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> >  wrote:
> > > And to
> > > hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> > > disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> > > generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > My TB friends every once in a while mention something positive about
> > caste systems.  Things like the value of reducing the stress of having
> > to find your place in the world.  Or the value of having fathers pass
> > on knowledge to their sons.  Somehow, women seem to be left out. :)
> 
> I am reading some books on the "reconstruction" era of the South. 
> They have the same arguments about how much happier freed slaves would
> be with someone to guide them because of the inferiority of their
> race.  They even have the arguments about how much better off they
> would be to know their place in the next world too!
> 
> Devious humans are so predictable when they try to run a number on
> other people, same raps, same scripts.  And the same bullshit
> oppression wrapped up in the smiling assurance that it is all for
> "your own good" cuz those in power know best.
> 
According to the vedic caste system that the tmo loves, MMY was not
born to be a spiritual teacher or a CEO.  MMY thoroughly violated the
caste system and having made his fame and fortune came out in favor of
the caste system and everyone else sticking to their proper place.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

Put it this way: I ain't holdin' my breath for a copy. Although I am still 
wondering in Raja Naders book on the Ramayana and human physiology who gets the 
anus. You can be sure once if it's ever translated into Hindi some Indian 
family's going to be mighty pissed.


---Haha. that was funny. 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

>>
>> Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us
>> longer.
>> Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.
>
> Maharishi was transcendentally cool, very cool indeed that way.

--As a world figure, if the world hadn't coughed up its sleve at that 
moment, Maharishi came out with his political emphasis at the end of his 
days. I would call it somewhat misguided. Especially regarding democracy 
which simply must go on.  But he dichotomized industrialization and satan 
with the West and placid nature and goodness with the East.  He cared to 
preserve Eastern tradition so as to preserve nature and peace of mind. I 
cannot blame him for that.

I think he didn't care for beurocracy except for it to trap itself. He 
allowed himself to not one moment of his life succumb to worldly courts or 
judgement. Or the judgements of anyone including all the advice of his 
movement inner circle. he kept them humble and without the full picture.

I am sure really somewhere, maybe in the heart of a Varma the entire 
scenario glows like a Bollywood billboard, something like "Maharishi and 
Varms clan restablish all Bharat as home of Eternal Dharma" and they charge 
really big Western bucks for their services which the more they take over 
small villages may grow until they get some world respect.  You see he saw 
the market for pundit services world wide, and how they couldn't do much 
harm really. He made Veda a word known to many which itself is dharmic to 
his mind because it got Indians also to respect themselves.

Because he left it in Krishna's hands. As he finally said, 'nature will 
always balance adharma with dharma.' He knew he left much incomplete, and 
that the real future of TMO was in the East for easterner, who could in fact 
follow the ashtangayogapatanjali. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[shempmcgurk]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
 wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> >  wrote:
> > > And to
> > > hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a 
real
> > > disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> > > generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > My TB friends every once in a while mention something positive 
about
> > caste systems.  Things like the value of reducing the stress of 
having
> > to find your place in the world.  Or the value of having fathers 
pass
> > on knowledge to their sons.  Somehow, women seem to be left 
out. :)
> 
> I am reading some books on the "reconstruction" era of the South. 
> They have the same arguments about how much happier freed slaves 
would
> be with someone to guide them because of the inferiority of their
> race.  They even have the arguments about how much better off they
> would be to know their place in the next world too!
> 
> Devious humans are so predictable when they try to run a number on
> other people, same raps, same scripts.  And the same bullshit
> oppression wrapped up in the smiling assurance that it is all for
> "your own good" cuz those in power know best.
> 


Maharishi not only supported the caste system but slavery as well:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/164656



.






> 
> 
> 
> >
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
>  wrote:
> > And to
> > hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> > disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> > generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> > 
> >
> 
> My TB friends every once in a while mention something positive about
> caste systems.  Things like the value of reducing the stress of having
> to find your place in the world.  Or the value of having fathers pass
> on knowledge to their sons.  Somehow, women seem to be left out. :)

I am reading some books on the "reconstruction" era of the South. 
They have the same arguments about how much happier freed slaves would
be with someone to guide them because of the inferiority of their
race.  They even have the arguments about how much better off they
would be to know their place in the next world too!

Devious humans are so predictable when they try to run a number on
other people, same raps, same scripts.  And the same bullshit
oppression wrapped up in the smiling assurance that it is all for
"your own good" cuz those in power know best.




>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[I am the eternal]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
>  wrote:
> > And to
> > hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> > disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> > generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> >
> >
>
> My TB friends every once in a while mention something positive about
> caste systems.  Things like the value of reducing the stress of having
> to find your place in the world.  Or the value of having fathers pass
> on knowledge to their sons.  Somehow, women seem to be left out. :)
>

Despite the many negative things people in the West have to say about those
who believe in Islam, if you listen very carefully to Muslims you can hear
the difference between the way Muslim women are regarded versus the way
Hindu women are regarded.  In Islam, the husband to be provides the dowry.
The dowry is in effect the divorce settlement and part of the inheritance
from the marriage.  The children, more to the son(s), inherit the estate and
the son(s) support the mother.  In the Hindu tradition, the wife to be must
provide the dowry.  I've always found the very fact that the wife must
provide the dowry as quite a put down of women.  I am not worthy to be your
wife, so here's some wealth to ease the blow of marrying me.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 20, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Kirk wrote:

Apurushaya Bhashya means 'uncreated commentary'.' It wasn't a text,  
and it merely has to do with each mandala having within itself 100  
of life fullness with first suktam of each mandala having 100  
percent wholeness, then symmertry breaking into more and more  
emptiness until at the half way pont of the mandala it has become  
50 % wholeness, and last suktam being 0% laws of nature.  Thus each  
opposite suktam in mandala compliments the one other one opposing.


As to what that has to do with anything you have to ask JH and BM

That's Apaurushayabhashya according to M.



That is the impression you get listening to Maharishi Vedic Science.  
"Uncreated" though means "uncreated by human hands", i.e. divinely  
inspired, typically heard (sruti) or seen (RS). Rishis supposedly can  
(nondually) see this. An example of the an Apaurusheya text, is the  
Rig Veda itself, it is "uncreated by human hands", but, nonetheless  
it is a written text, passed on orally. So (supposedly) MMY was  
working on writing this down for many years. There have been numerous  
references over the years of him writing or working on this.


Right before he died, the press releases said something to the effect  
'his work was done' and he was retiring 'to work on his commentary of  
Rig Veda' (i.e. his apaurusheya bhasya). This is interesting to me,  
since it is and was "the big carrot". If you're a rishi truly, you  
reveal texts of ultimate truths of some kind, if you're a great,  
"maha", rishi, you damn well better produce something! So to keep  
that illusion in place--my impression is--that this was intimated  
right up to the very end.


Put it this way: I ain't holdin' my breath for a copy. Although I am  
still wondering in Raja Naders book on the Ramayana and human  
physiology who gets the anus. You can be sure once if it's ever  
translated into Hindi some Indian family's going to be mighty pissed.


So this is what Ruth is referring to as well: it's consistently been  
hinted at all the "Vedic" sciences had been re-intuited by MMY-as- 
rishi. This is a common TB belief. However I wouldn't be surprised,  
now that he has passed, that they might back off on this, unless an  
actual comment does appear. Then, if it does, it will be sold at a  
course that will cost so much, you'll have to take out a second (or  
third) mortgage.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
 wrote:
> And to
> hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> 
>

My TB friends every once in a while mention something positive about
caste systems.  Things like the value of reducing the stress of having
to find your place in the world.  Or the value of having fathers pass
on knowledge to their sons.  Somehow, women seem to be left out. :)  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[boo_lives]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
 wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in Indian  
> > philosophical revisionism, as MMY consistently has tried to tie  
> > older, pre-Vedic writings to the Vedas. This would most likely
> appeal > to Brahmins, caste system advocates and right-wing religious
> zealots, > as it's a history essentially re-written for them: the
> Vedic > supremacists.
> 
> It is such weird irony that it was the baby boomer hippies who made
> him famous when his views were so conservative and in many cases
> represented the opposite of the egalitarian hippie movement.  And to
> hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
> disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
> generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> 
> Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us longer. 
> Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.
> 
I agree completely, mmy was not cool.  But he was a natural marketer
and knew to hide his fundamentalist views early on, so I'm not too
down on myself for being fooled.  Plus I feel he really changed over
time.  This is heresy to tmers who view the man as absolute
enlightened non-changing, but like everyone he changed as he got
older.  2 main factors I think:  externally, power corrupts and
absolute power corrupts absolutely, and internally a deflected
kundalini energy flow which gives fantastic "spiritual experiences" in
youth but being unintegrated (an experience not a life lived) leads
increasingly to imbalanced mental/emotional states later on.  You see
this a lot in successful, high shakti, charismatic gurus who when they
come on the scene are clearly drawing on some internal spiritual
energy but who act increasingly nuts over time.

 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

Apurushaya Bhashya means 'uncreated commentary'.' It wasn't a text, and it 
merely has to do with each mandala having within itself 100 of life fullness 
with first suktam of each mandala having 100 percent wholeness, then symmertry 
breaking into more and more emptiness until at the half way pont of the mandala 
it has become 50 % wholeness, and last suktam being 0% laws of nature.  Thus 
each opposite suktam in mandala compliments the one other one opposing. 

As to what that has to do with anything you have to ask JH and BM

That's Apaurushayabhashya according to M.

 Original Message - 
  From: Vaj 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright




  On Feb 20, 2009, at 12:09 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:

> > Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory? How else could he
> > rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?
> 
> I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks who've 
> done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's 
> not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of basic 
> meditation.

You could be right, I don't know enough about the history of meditation to 
know, but all I am saying is that isn't the TMO's claim.  The claim is 
rediscovery, including of the meaning of the Vedas.  I think that would require 
enlightenment under their theory.   


  Yeah MMY claimed to have cognized a new text which he called the Apaurusheya 
Bhasya of Rig Veda. "Purusha" means "man", A-purusha, means "not by a man", 
"bhasya" means commentary; so MMY has claimed to have found the divine, of 
non-human origin, commentary on the Rig Veda. Actually he claimed to be working 
on it just before he died, still many years having "discovered it". It's 
probably more likely his spin from hanging with various Rig Veda and other 
pundits. In other words, it's his repackaging that he was still hobbling 
together. Tony Nader's 'human physiology and the Veda'--and more recently the 
Ramayana--seem to be offshoots of people close to MMY who were trying to spin a 
similar spiel to be able to get big attention from MMY.


  One things for certain, no legitimate Vedic scholar that I'm aware of takes 
it seriously. I seriously doubt we'll ever see anything in print. Yet movement 
TB's casually will claim that MMY is a great (or THE greatest) Vedic scholar. 
Funny, no one else seemed to notice.


  Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in Indian philosophical 
revisionism, as MMY consistently has tried to tie older, pre-Vedic writings to 
the Vedas. This would most likely appeal to Brahmins, caste system advocates 
and right-wing religious zealots, as it's a history essentially re-written for 
them: the Vedic supremacists. During the web seminar I've contacted Meera 
Nanda, an expert in pseudo-Vedic teachings and I'm sure she'd love to answer 
any pointed questions on this topic. Esp. since she considers the TM org a or 
the primary promoter of Vedic pseudo- history and science.



> > And
> > rediscover and correct Ayurveda? Or, as the TMO says in information I
> > was reading recently: for the total significance of its
> > theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
> > science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
> > restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which offers a
> > science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using methods
> > that are completely free from harmful side effects."
> 
> This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he 
> diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an 
> interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a lecture 
> on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they 
> edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't jive 
> with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what 
> the guy was actually saying!

Interesting.  I don't see how  MMY could  have any significant background 
on Ayurveda.  I doubt his background on the Vedas too.  The claim that 
""Maharishi completely restored the thousands of years-old scattered Vedic 
Literature . . ." is more than a bit much.  



  He's claiming to have unraveled the underlying code for all the 40 some 
systems of "

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Peter]

--- On Fri, 2/20/09, curtisdeltablues  wrote:

> From: curtisdeltablues 
> Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 1:06 PM
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
>  wrote:
> > Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in
> Indian  
> > philosophical revisionism, as MMY consistently has
> tried to tie  
> > older, pre-Vedic writings to the Vedas. This would
> most likely
> appeal > to Brahmins, caste system advocates and
> right-wing religious
> zealots, > as it's a history essentially re-written
> for them: the
> Vedic > supremacists.
> 
> It is such weird irony that it was the baby boomer hippies
> who made
> him famous when his views were so conservative and in many
> cases
> represented the opposite of the egalitarian hippie
> movement.  And to
> hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is
> a real
> disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of
> our
> generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)
> 
> Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us
> longer. 
> Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.

Maharishi was transcendentally cool, very cool indeed that way.





> 
> 
> 
> >
> > 
> > On Feb 20, 2009, at 12:09 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
>  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened
> under TM theory? How else  
> > > could he
> > > > > rediscover what he claimed were lost
> mediation techniques?
> > > >
> > > > I think it's understood by most
> reasonable and objective folks  
> > > who've
> > > > done a little lookin', that "TM is
> nothing new under the sun", it's
> > > > not something he's "restored",
> in fact it's a ubiquitous form of  
> > > basic
> > > > meditation.
> > >
> > > You could be right, I don't know enough about
> the history of  
> > > meditation to know, but all I am saying is that
> isn't the TMO's  
> > > claim.  The claim is rediscovery, including of
> the meaning of the  
> > > Vedas.  I think that would require enlightenment
> under their theory.
> > 
> > Yeah MMY claimed to have cognized a new text which he
> called the  
> > Apaurusheya Bhasya of Rig Veda. "Purusha"
> means "man", A-purusha,  
> > means "not by a man", "bhasya"
> means commentary; so MMY has claimed  
> > to have found the divine, of non-human origin,
> commentary on the Rig  
> > Veda. Actually he claimed to be working on it just
> before he died,  
> > still many years having "discovered it".
> It's probably more likely  
> > his spin from hanging with various Rig Veda and other
> pundits. In  
> > other words, it's his repackaging that he was
> still hobbling  
> > together. Tony Nader's 'human physiology and
> the Veda'--and more  
> > recently the Ramayana--seem to be offshoots of people
> close to MMY  
> > who were trying to spin a similar spiel to be able to
> get big  
> > attention from MMY.
> > 
> > One things for certain, no legitimate Vedic scholar
> that I'm aware of  
> > takes it seriously. I seriously doubt we'll ever
> see anything in  
> > print. Yet movement TB's casually will claim that
> MMY is a great (or  
> > THE greatest) Vedic scholar. Funny, no one else seemed
> to notice.
> > 
> > Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in
> Indian  
> > philosophical revisionism, as MMY consistently has
> tried to tie  
> > older, pre-Vedic writings to the Vedas. This would
> most likely appeal  
> > to Brahmins, caste system advocates and right-wing
> religious zealots,  
> > as it's a history essentially re-written for them:
> the Vedic  
> > supremacists. During the web seminar I've
> contacted Meera Nanda, an  
> > expert in pseudo-Vedic teachings and I'm sure
> she'd love to answer  
> > any pointed questions on this topic. Esp. since she
> considers the TM  
> > org a or the primary promoter of Vedic pseudo- history
> and science.
> > 
> > >
> > > > > And
> > > > > rediscover and correct Ayurveda? Or, as
> the TMO says in  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in Indian  
> philosophical revisionism, as MMY consistently has tried to tie  
> older, pre-Vedic writings to the Vedas. This would most likely
appeal > to Brahmins, caste system advocates and right-wing religious
zealots, > as it's a history essentially re-written for them: the
Vedic > supremacists.

It is such weird irony that it was the baby boomer hippies who made
him famous when his views were so conservative and in many cases
represented the opposite of the egalitarian hippie movement.  And to
hear apologists for the the caste system in the movement is a real
disgrace to the progressive values of the best thinkers of our
generation.  (Oops I was one of THEM!)

Ginsberg sniffed it out early on.  It took most of us longer. 
Maharishi was not cool.  Simple as that.



>
> 
> On Feb 20, 2009, at 12:09 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:
> 
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:
> >
> > > > Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory? How else  
> > could he
> > > > rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?
> > >
> > > I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks  
> > who've
> > > done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's
> > > not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of  
> > basic
> > > meditation.
> >
> > You could be right, I don't know enough about the history of  
> > meditation to know, but all I am saying is that isn't the TMO's  
> > claim.  The claim is rediscovery, including of the meaning of the  
> > Vedas.  I think that would require enlightenment under their theory.
> 
> Yeah MMY claimed to have cognized a new text which he called the  
> Apaurusheya Bhasya of Rig Veda. "Purusha" means "man", A-purusha,  
> means "not by a man", "bhasya" means commentary; so MMY has claimed  
> to have found the divine, of non-human origin, commentary on the Rig  
> Veda. Actually he claimed to be working on it just before he died,  
> still many years having "discovered it". It's probably more likely  
> his spin from hanging with various Rig Veda and other pundits. In  
> other words, it's his repackaging that he was still hobbling  
> together. Tony Nader's 'human physiology and the Veda'--and more  
> recently the Ramayana--seem to be offshoots of people close to MMY  
> who were trying to spin a similar spiel to be able to get big  
> attention from MMY.
> 
> One things for certain, no legitimate Vedic scholar that I'm aware of  
> takes it seriously. I seriously doubt we'll ever see anything in  
> print. Yet movement TB's casually will claim that MMY is a great (or  
> THE greatest) Vedic scholar. Funny, no one else seemed to notice.
> 
> Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in Indian  
> philosophical revisionism, as MMY consistently has tried to tie  
> older, pre-Vedic writings to the Vedas. This would most likely appeal  
> to Brahmins, caste system advocates and right-wing religious zealots,  
> as it's a history essentially re-written for them: the Vedic  
> supremacists. During the web seminar I've contacted Meera Nanda, an  
> expert in pseudo-Vedic teachings and I'm sure she'd love to answer  
> any pointed questions on this topic. Esp. since she considers the TM  
> org a or the primary promoter of Vedic pseudo- history and science.
> 
> >
> > > > And
> > > > rediscover and correct Ayurveda? Or, as the TMO says in  
> > information I
> > > > was reading recently: for the total significance of its
> > > > theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
> > > > science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
> > > > restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which  
> > offers a
> > > > science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using  
> > methods
> > > > that are completely free from harmful side effects."
> > >
> > > This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he
> > > diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an
> > > interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a  
> > lecture
> > > on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they
> > > edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't  
> > jive
> > > with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what
> > > the guy was actually saying!
> >
> > Interesting.  I don't see how  MMY could  have any significant  
> > background on Ayurveda.  I doubt his background on the Vedas too.   
> > The claim that ""Maharishi completely restored the thousands of  
> > years-old scattered Vedic Literature . . ." is more than a bit much.
> 
> He's claiming to have unraveled the underlying code for all the 40  
> some systems of "Vedic" sciences, as contained within the Rig Veda.  
> IOW, Rig Veda is the seed text for the unfol

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 20, 2009, at 12:09 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:

> > Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory? How else  
could he

> > rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?
>
> I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks  
who've

> done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's
> not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of  
basic

> meditation.

You could be right, I don't know enough about the history of  
meditation to know, but all I am saying is that isn't the TMO's  
claim.  The claim is rediscovery, including of the meaning of the  
Vedas.  I think that would require enlightenment under their theory.


Yeah MMY claimed to have cognized a new text which he called the  
Apaurusheya Bhasya of Rig Veda. "Purusha" means "man", A-purusha,  
means "not by a man", "bhasya" means commentary; so MMY has claimed  
to have found the divine, of non-human origin, commentary on the Rig  
Veda. Actually he claimed to be working on it just before he died,  
still many years having "discovered it". It's probably more likely  
his spin from hanging with various Rig Veda and other pundits. In  
other words, it's his repackaging that he was still hobbling  
together. Tony Nader's 'human physiology and the Veda'--and more  
recently the Ramayana--seem to be offshoots of people close to MMY  
who were trying to spin a similar spiel to be able to get big  
attention from MMY.


One things for certain, no legitimate Vedic scholar that I'm aware of  
takes it seriously. I seriously doubt we'll ever see anything in  
print. Yet movement TB's casually will claim that MMY is a great (or  
THE greatest) Vedic scholar. Funny, no one else seemed to notice.


Even if it did pan out, it would be a hallmark in Indian  
philosophical revisionism, as MMY consistently has tried to tie  
older, pre-Vedic writings to the Vedas. This would most likely appeal  
to Brahmins, caste system advocates and right-wing religious zealots,  
as it's a history essentially re-written for them: the Vedic  
supremacists. During the web seminar I've contacted Meera Nanda, an  
expert in pseudo-Vedic teachings and I'm sure she'd love to answer  
any pointed questions on this topic. Esp. since she considers the TM  
org a or the primary promoter of Vedic pseudo- history and science.




> > And
> > rediscover and correct Ayurveda? Or, as the TMO says in  
information I

> > was reading recently: for the total significance of its
> > theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
> > science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
> > restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which  
offers a
> > science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using  
methods

> > that are completely free from harmful side effects."
>
> This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he
> diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an
> interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a  
lecture

> on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they
> edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't  
jive

> with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what
> the guy was actually saying!

Interesting.  I don't see how  MMY could  have any significant  
background on Ayurveda.  I doubt his background on the Vedas too.   
The claim that ""Maharishi completely restored the thousands of  
years-old scattered Vedic Literature . . ." is more than a bit much.


He's claiming to have unraveled the underlying code for all the 40  
some systems of "Vedic" sciences, as contained within the Rig Veda.  
IOW, Rig Veda is the seed text for the unfoldment of all these other  
Vedic "sciences". Yet strangely, he relies on others he pays to come  
consult with him for this supposedly inspired or re-revealed knowledge.


And of course no one I know has ever seen this alleged divinely  
inspired text, although it was used as a carrot for years (decades  
actually).

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives"  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11
>  wrote:
> >
> > exactly. he thinks the 12 of us who have called
> > him on his BS are upset and hateful towards him.
> > nothing could be further from the truth. we think
> > he is an arrogant little jerk parading around 
> > like some great teacher, and trashing the Maharishi
> > and TM in the process.
> 
> There are exceptions, but i've found thru extensive
> experience in the field that anyone who likes to say
> "bashing maharishi" or "trashing maharishi" are
> people who are incapable of hearing any criticism
> whatsoever of maharishi - their world requires it.

Good thing you said there are exceptions. Even some
of the TM critics here are able to recognize the
difference between fair and unfair criticism.

My experience in the field, however, is that the
world of many TM critics requires them to be unable
to acknowledge that there *is* such a thing as
unfair criticism of Maharishi and TM.

Vaj does not appear to be one of the exceptions.

> As an interesting sidenote, i've noticed that many
> of these same people, over 50% for sure, had either
> an alcoholic or abusive parent.

Oh, hmm, on what basis were you able to "notice" this?
Are you saying you had an opportunity to observe these
parents' alcoholism or abusiveness? And how did you
determine the percentages? Did you keep a spreadsheet,
or what?

BTW, did you have any comment to make about Vaj's
assertion that the Dalai Lama's opinion of what makes
a qualified teacher "flipped everyone out"?

> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > When someone is given (or in this case takes) a title,
> > > > as per the previous description by the Dalai Lama on
> > > > the qualifications of a teacher which flipped everyone
> > > > out so much,
> > > 
> > > In fact, as Vaj knows, *nobody* was "flipped out" by
> > > the Dalai Lama's description, or disturbed by it in
> > > the slightest. Some of us were annoyed at the way Vaj
> > > tried to use it to dump on MMY.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:

> > Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory?  How else could
he
> > rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?
>
> I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks who've
> done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's
> not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of basic
> meditation.

You could be right, I don't know enough about the history of meditation
to know, but all I am saying is that isn't the TMO's claim.  The claim
is rediscovery, including of the meaning of the Vedas.  I think that
would require enlightenment under their theory.

> >  And
> > rediscover and correct Ayurveda?  Or, as the TMO says in information
I
> > was reading recently: for the total significance of its
> > theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
> > science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
> > restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which offers
a
> > science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using
methods
> > that are completely free from harmful side effects."
>
> This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he
> diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an
> interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a lecture
> on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they
> edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't jive
> with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what
> the guy was actually saying!

Interesting.  I don't see how  MMY could  have any significant
background on Ayurveda.  I doubt his background on the Vedas too.  The
claim that ""Maharishi completely restored the thousands of years-old
scattered Vedic Literature . . ." is more than a bit much.
>
> > Vaj, I take it that you are saying that MMY is not a Yogi under the
> > applicable traditions.  I don't think anyone really disputes that.
>
> Oh my heavens Ruth, prepare to be stoned! He was a yogi who lived in
> the Valley of the Saints and then came to the land of mud to bring to
> TM to the world, based on a recurring thought he kept having while
> trying to meditate.
>
> Actually one of the Shankaracharya's of Jyotir Math IIRC and a fellow
> student of SBS has come out and said that MMY was not trained as a
yogi.
>
> > One of the few things that does not bother me about MMY is the
> > breaking from tradition, going from being a secretary to a teacher.
> > If someone feels that they have something of value to teach, fine by
> > me, even if they are not in the right caste or do not have the right
> > background.  However, it is of relevance in evaluating his
educational
> > background on topics where he professed knowledge, such as asanas or
> > the siddhis or vedic science.
>
> And assuming titles. How do you feel when someone who's not a
> physicians calls themselves a "doctor" (and infers they are a medical
> doctor).

An interesting  point.   A title like "doctor"  assumes a basic
education and background is required.  We can legitimately dispute
whether that is in fact necessary to become a spiritual teacher.  I
think that it is important to know of the person's background in
evaluating their claims.  But if you believe in enlightenment then the
enlightened might have something to teach even if  they do not come from
the correct tradition.  Yes? Now I do not personally believe that MMY
was enlightened so this is only a theoretical discussion.   I withhold
an opinion as to whether someone who is actually enlightened could use a
title like Maharishi or Yogi.  My hunch is that I would think it is fine
if it was bestowed by others.


Thanks for the Domash quote.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

>> > Yes, Vaj loves to send hatemail to this group.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -And this is lovemail?
>>
>
>
> No, it's cultmail.
>
> Nabby is its leading practitioner.
>
>

Nabby is an interesting sort. Not having met her in the flesh I lay no claim 
to who she really is.  Could be anyone.  Might be one of those advertised 
dimwits on matchmaker dot com for all I know, roller skating and laughing 
like she has a feather in her bloomers. I think I believe She's from 
Scotland and has vivid dreams. When I took to the internet I used to pose as 
female just for the fun of it. Well, it wasn't fun as you wouldn't believe 
how the low tenor of conversation turns asapeople think some femme is 
interested in them, virtually or not. So I went back to being male and not 
playing games with people's minds. Women have it rough. Why nabby chooses to 
go about acting like a horny cunt I'll never know. But chicks like that I 
let other people buy drinks for. As they are soon puking over your shoulder. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[shempmcgurk]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk"  wrote:
>
> 
> > Yes, Vaj loves to send hatemail to this group.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -And this is lovemail?
>


No, it's cultmail.

Nabby is its leading practitioner.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Sal Sunshine]

On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:39 AM, Peter wrote:

Tom, don't you think your response here is a tad extreme? Its like  
the time you uploaded some (legal) porno to the FFL files and then  
registered a complaint regarding it with Yahoo. All of you and Vaj  
are having a disagreement because you see Vaj as intellectually  
dishonest. Okay. But this response of yours is in the same category  
of threatening to publish embarrassing private information on people  
you don't like. You honestly don't think this is bit of overkill?


FWIW, I thought it was supposed to be satire.

And is Eternal really our very own Tom Appalling?
I think E's emails are a lot better written.

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[boo_lives]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11
 wrote:
>
> exactly. he thinks the 12 of us who have called him on his BS are
> upset and hateful towards him. nothing could be further from the
> truth. we think he is an arrogant little jerk parading around like
> some great teacher, and trashing the Maharishi and TM in the process.

There are exceptions, but i've found thru extensive experience in the
field that anyone who likes to say "bashing maharishi" or "trashing
maharishi" are people who are incapable of hearing any criticism
whatsoever of maharishi - their world requires it.

As an interesting sidenote, i've noticed that many of these same
people, over 50% for sure, had either an alcoholic or abusive parent.



> 
> he is a delusional little fellow who lives in his head, thinking as he
> said that only he knows the truth, and the rest of us are ignorant
> fools - really pathetic stuff. 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > 
> > > When someone is given (or in this case takes) a title,
> > > as per the previous description by the Dalai Lama on
> > > the qualifications of a teacher which flipped everyone
> > > out so much,
> > 
> > In fact, as Vaj knows, *nobody* was "flipped out" by
> > the Dalai Lama's description, or disturbed by it in
> > the slightest. Some of us were annoyed at the way Vaj
> > tried to use it to dump on MMY.
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

Has anyone else on FFL received unsolicited child porn from Barry?

---Former abuse victimes read alot into art.  They have a test called 
Rorschach which you and a shrink might find useful.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

> Yes, Vaj loves to send hatemail to this group.
> 
> 
> 

-And this is lovemail? 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Kirk]

>> > --and will probably drive more hate mail
>>
>> Vaj's posts are a lot closer to "hate mail" than
>> the posts that correct his many misstatements.
>
> That's the word; hate mail !

--Nowblowus, the hate mail is probably due to the nonsequitur one liners 
you so lawsonesquely strew about without truncating your posts which makes 
them almost a struggle to bother reading. I know don't why I continue except 
you define for me now the -out-of-touch-with-reality-factor which is a good 
thing to have somewhere in my brain in case I ever start believing tripe has 
turned to filet. 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Peter]

--- On Fri, 2/20/09, I am the eternal  wrote:
From: I am the eternal 
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:22 AM














On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 AM, nablusoss1008  wrote:

> Vaj's posts are a lot closer to "hate mail" than

> the posts that correct his many misstatements.



That's the word; hate mail !




Actually, I received a nice, friendly email from Vaj a couple of days ago.  Of 
course he wanting something, just like Barry did when Barry sent me those 
unsolicited pictures of unclothed children in sexual situations a month ago.  I 
guess Vaj is being hit on from so many sides by the junkyard dog and her 
friends that he'd actually stoop to attempt to be nice to me.   Oh well, I'll 
take kindness from any place I can get it, even if it's not sincere and won't 
last.  


At least the email from Vaj wasn't like the stuff from Barry that could have 
wound me up in both state and federal prison had I not immediately taken out my 
hard drive, destroyed it, bought a new one and re-imaged it from a backup prior 
to receipt of the unwanted "gifts".


Has anyone else on FFL received unsolicited child porn from Barry?

Tom, don't you think your response here is a tad extreme? Its like the time you 
uploaded some (legal) porno to the FFL files and then registered a complaint 
regarding it with Yahoo. All of you and Vaj are having a disagreement because 
you see Vaj as intellectually dishonest. Okay. But this response of yours is in 
the same category of threatening to publish embarrassing private information on 
people you don't like. You honestly don't think this is bit of overkill? 



















 




  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal 
wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 AM, nablusoss1008
wrote:
> 
> > > Vaj's posts are a lot closer to "hate mail" than
> > > the posts that correct his many misstatements.
> >
> > That's the word; hate mail !
> >
> >
> Actually, I received a nice, friendly email from Vaj a couple of
days ago.
> Of course he wanting something, just like Barry did when Barry sent
me those
> unsolicited pictures of unclothed children in sexual situations a month
> ago.  I guess Vaj is being hit on from so many sides by the junkyard
dog and
> her friends that he'd actually stoop to attempt to be nice to me.  
Oh well,
> I'll take kindness from any place I can get it, even if it's not
sincere and
> won't last.
> 
> At least the email from Vaj wasn't like the stuff from Barry that
could have
> wound me up in both state and federal prison had I not immediately
taken out
> my hard drive, destroyed it, bought a new one and re-imaged it from
a backup
> prior to receipt of the unwanted "gifts".
> 
> Has anyone else on FFL received unsolicited child porn from Barry?
>

Twinkies or Munchkins?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[I am the eternal]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

> > Vaj's posts are a lot closer to "hate mail" than
> > the posts that correct his many misstatements.
>
> That's the word; hate mail !
>
>
Actually, I received a nice, friendly email from Vaj a couple of days ago.
Of course he wanting something, just like Barry did when Barry sent me those
unsolicited pictures of unclothed children in sexual situations a month
ago.  I guess Vaj is being hit on from so many sides by the junkyard dog and
her friends that he'd actually stoop to attempt to be nice to me.   Oh well,
I'll take kindness from any place I can get it, even if it's not sincere and
won't last.

At least the email from Vaj wasn't like the stuff from Barry that could have
wound me up in both state and federal prison had I not immediately taken out
my hard drive, destroyed it, bought a new one and re-imaged it from a backup
prior to receipt of the unwanted "gifts".

Has anyone else on FFL received unsolicited child porn from Barry?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11  
wrote:
>
> exactly. he thinks the 12 of us who have called him on his BS are
> upset and hateful towards him. nothing could be further from the
> truth. we think he is an arrogant little jerk parading around like
> some great teacher, and trashing the Maharishi and TM in the process.
> 
> he is a delusional little fellow who lives in his head, thinking as he
> said that only he knows the truth, and the rest of us are ignorant
> fools - really pathetic stuff. 

Yes, Vaj loves to send hatemail to this group.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> 
> > When someone is given (or in this case takes) a title,
> > as per the previous description by the Dalai Lama on
> > the qualifications of a teacher which flipped everyone
> > out so much,
> 
> In fact, as Vaj knows, *nobody* was "flipped out" by
> the Dalai Lama's description, or disturbed by it in
> the slightest. Some of us were annoyed at the way Vaj
> tried to use it to dump on MMY.
> 
> 
> > One case and point
> 
> ("case in point")
> 
>  brought this home very clearly just recently.  
> > Someone had posted links to old lectures of MMY. One
> > was on mantra from the Rishikesh days. So I listened
> > to them to see how they were. And the guy had no idea
> > how to answer. Very nervous with much nervous laughter.
> 
> Or, what Vaj is pleased to describe as nervousness.
> 
>  MMY biographer Paul Mason later described it and I
> > thought how refreshing it was that someone else had
> > the exact same impression. Here I was expecting some
> > great explanations,
> 
> How many here believe Vaj was "expecting some great
> explanations" from Maharishi?
> 
> And how many think whatever MMY had said, Vaj would
> have found some way to trash it?
> 
> My memory of this episode is that someone asked MMY
> whether he got the mantras from Guru Dev, and MMY
> laughed and said he didn't know what mantras Guru
> Dev used because they were given out privately. If
> that's what Vaj is referring to, he's seriously
> misrepresenting the exchange.
> 
>  but not so. Of course  
> > I've already brought up the asana course thing--they
> > were written by a gym teacher.
> 
> Here's how Vaj brought up what he calls the "asana
> course thing" before:
> 
> "If M. was a yogi, he could have easily written a
> brilliant book [on hatha yoga] or even better a
> course with his sharp intellect. But this is clearly
> not the case. Instead they found a HS gym teacher
> to do so and those formed the sets used for rounding.
> I'm sure many here have the booklets (which now
> circulate in PDF form)."
> 
> So Vaj knew, when he first mentioned it, that it
> wasn't a "course" at all, much less a book.  It was
> a few sheets with crude stick-figure-like drawings
> to serve as aides-memoirs of the postures (which
> were actually demonstrated by TM teachers to course
> participants).
> 
> At the time, it was pointed out to Vaj that the asana
> sheets were never intended to be anything remotely
> like a "course" or "book" on hatha yoga, nor did
> they require any deep knowledge of it. It was
> something a gym teacher with some knowledge of very
> basic, simple yoga asanas *could* put together on
> his own and make the drawings for, most likely with
> guidance from MMY as to which postures to use. For
> this purpose, there was zero need for MMY to do any
> more than that.
> 
> The point of the asanas in rounding, at least at the
> time they were introduced and for years after that
> (there may have been recent changes, for all I know)
> was simply to make for a bit of physical activity
> between meditations. There was no concern whatsoever
> about how meditators did them, just that they go
> approximately through the motions to move the body
> around some.
> 
> Later, MMY *did* come out with an actual hatha yoga
> course, but that wasn't what the gym teacher Vaj is
> talking about helped with. Vaj is attempting to
> make readers think MMY had a highschool gym teacher
> create a whole course or book on hatha yoga, but that
> wasn't the case at all, as he knows.
> 
>  These are very touchy things to even mention here  
> > (apparently)
> 
> They're "touchy" because they're mostly bullshit.
> 
> > --and will probably drive more hate mail
> 
> Vaj's posts are a lot closer to "hate mail" than
> the posts that correct his many misstatements.

That's the word; hate mail !

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Peter]

You all should worship at the lotus feet of Sri Vaj because he is delightfully 
squeezing-out the last of your samskaras and is actually your Sat Guru.


--- On Thu, 2/19/09, enlightened_dawn11  wrote:

> From: enlightened_dawn11 
> Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 7:57 PM
> exactly. he thinks the 12 of us who have called him on his
> BS are
> upset and hateful towards him. nothing could be further
> from the
> truth. we think he is an arrogant little jerk parading
> around like
> some great teacher, and trashing the Maharishi and TM in
> the process.
> 
> he is a delusional little fellow who lives in his head,
> thinking as he
> said that only he knows the truth, and the rest of us are
> ignorant
> fools - really pathetic stuff. 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
>  wrote:
> > 
> > > When someone is given (or in this case takes) a
> title,
> > > as per the previous description by the Dalai Lama
> on
> > > the qualifications of a teacher which flipped
> everyone
> > > out so much,
> > 
> > In fact, as Vaj knows, *nobody* was "flipped
> out" by
> > the Dalai Lama's description, or disturbed by it
> in
> > the slightest. Some of us were annoyed at the way Vaj
> > tried to use it to dump on MMY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To subscribe, send a message to:
> fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Or go to: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
> and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:




The TM mythos is filled with the tacit implication or even insistence
that MMY was fully enlightened. In fact during his death ceremonies
they kept repeating that he wasn't just enlightened, but the most
enlightened rishi of all yugas!





Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory?  How else could he
rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?


I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks who've  
done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's  
not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of basic  
meditation.


There are still many people who will repeat, matter-a-factly, that TM  
is a form of "Vedic" meditation, but nothing could be farther from the  
truth. Movement representatives will still parrot this obviously false  
information. Most of them probably either aren't aware of the fact (we  
were always told NOT to investigate the Vedas or "Vedic texts" on our  
own, as it would just "confuse" us) or if they are, they're afraid to  
go against what the founder said or they are out-and-out TB's.




 And
rediscover and correct Ayurveda?  Or, as the TMO says in information I
was reading recently: "Maharishi completely restored the thousands of
years-old scattered Vedic Literature for the total significance of its
theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which offers a
science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using methods
that are completely free from harmful side effects."


This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he  
diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an  
interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a lecture  
on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they  
edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't jive  
with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what  
the guy was actually saying!



Vaj, I take it that you are saying that MMY is not a Yogi under the
applicable traditions.  I don't think anyone really disputes that.


Oh my heavens Ruth, prepare to be stoned! He was a yogi who lived in  
the Valley of the Saints and then came to the land of mud to bring to  
TM to the world, based on a recurring thought he kept having while  
trying to meditate.


Actually one of the Shankaracharya's of Jyotir Math IIRC and a fellow  
student of SBS has come out and said that MMY was not trained as a yogi.



One of the few things that does not bother me about MMY is the
breaking from tradition, going from being a secretary to a teacher.
If someone feels that they have something of value to teach, fine by
me, even if they are not in the right caste or do not have the right
background.  However, it is of relevance in evaluating his educational
background on topics where he professed knowledge, such as asanas or
the siddhis or vedic science.


And assuming titles. How do you feel when someone who's not a  
physicians calls themselves a "doctor" (and infers they are a medical  
doctor).


When it comes to mantra yoga, mantras can be authentically given by  
puja. But there's a bit more to mantra yoga than what we were lead to  
believe.



I have never been clear on how he came up with transcendental
meditation, i.e., the routine and the mantras.  What did he say  
about it?


The party line is he got them from Swami Brahmananda. The only  
problems with that is that Swami Brahmananda's oral teachings are in  
opposition to what MMY taught, although MMY does pepper his teachings  
with bits and pieces of authentic information and wisdom, most of  
which is well known by spiritual Indians.


One of his most interesting faux pas is the claim that other  
meditation techniques have traditionally taught some form of forced  
concentration, meditation that involves straining. It's a red herring-- 
of course having read or heard that, you're almost afraid to try  
anything else! Here's the whole spiel, which is easily refutable as  
hype and posturing, but it's still a pretty entertaining read:


http://tinyurl.com/34bras

" By the process of comparing his own direct experience of
the actual goal of meditation with the common understanding then
available, it became clear to Maharishi that the common idea of
what meditation was supposed to be was in fact a complete
distortion of the original meaning of the ancient procedure.
Procedures of concentration or of forcing the mind to be free of
content, with or without the use of a sensory medium such as an
auditory or visual focus, seemed to him to lead away from,
rather than toward, the desired result. At every stage of
experimentation, Maharishi held to the guideline given him by
his master that maximum

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
wrote:

> Vaj, I take it that you are saying that MMY is
> not a Yogi under the applicable traditions.  I
> don't think anyone really disputes that.

Nobody disputes that this is what Vaj says, no.
Some of us think it's absurd to take what he says
as gospel, however.

> One of the few things that does not bother me
> about MMY is the breaking from tradition, going
> from being a secretary to a teacher. If someone
> feels that they have something of value to teach,
> fine by me, even if they are not in the right
> caste or do not have the right background.

Excellent. Vaj disagrees with you.

  However, it is of relevance in evaluating his
> educational background on topics where he professed
> knowledge, such as asanas

He didn't "profess knowledge of asanas" at the time
Vaj was referring to. The whole bit about the gym
teacher is one of Vaj's many big fat red herrings.

 or the siddhis or vedic science. 
> 
> I have never been clear on how he came up with
> transcendental meditation, i.e., the routine and
> the mantras.  What did he say about it?

The introductory essay by Larry Domash to the first
volume of the Collected Papers relates what MMY
wanted on the record about how he came up with the
"routine." (The mantras, of course, are standard
bija mantras; no big mystery about them.)

Here's the first half of the essay as posted back
in the 1990s on alt.meditation.transcendental:

http://tinyurl.com/34zns4

The whole thing is interesting reading, but if you
want to get quickly to the part I mentioned, search
for the phrase "unusually talented student" and
start reading there.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[ruthsimplicity]

>From Vaj via email, as his post apparently didn't go through:

On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The TM mythos is filled with the tacit implication or even insistence  
>> that MMY was fully enlightened. In fact during his death ceremonies  
>> they kept repeating that he wasn't just enlightened, but the most  
>> enlightened rishi of all yugas!
>>
>>
>
>
> Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory?  How else could he
> rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?

I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks who've
done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's
not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of basic
meditation.

There are still many people who will repeat, matter-a-factly, that TM
is a form of "Vedic" meditation, but nothing could be farther from the
truth. Movement representatives will still parrot this obviously false
information. Most of them probably either aren't aware of the fact (we
were always told NOT to investigate the Vedas or "Vedic texts" on our
own, as it would just "confuse" us) or if they are, they're afraid to
go against what the founder said or they are out-and-out TB's.


>  And
> rediscover and correct Ayurveda?  Or, as the TMO says in information I
> was reading recently: "Maharishi completely restored the thousands of
> years-old scattered Vedic Literature for the total significance of its
> theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
> science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
> restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which offers a
> science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using methods
> that are completely free from harmful side effects."

This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he
diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an
interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a lecture
on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they
edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't jive
with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what
the guy was actually saying!

> Vaj, I take it that you are saying that MMY is not a Yogi under the
> applicable traditions.  I don't think anyone really disputes that. 

Oh my heavens Ruth, prepare to be stoned! He was a yogi who lived in
the Valley of the Saints and then came to the land of mud to bring to
TM to the world, based on a recurring thought he kept having while
trying to meditate.

Actually one of the Shankaracharya's of Jyotir Math IIRC and a fellow
student of SBS has come out and said that MMY was not trained as a yogi.

> One of the few things that does not bother me about MMY is the
> breaking from tradition, going from being a secretary to a teacher. 
> If someone feels that they have something of value to teach, fine by
> me, even if they are not in the right caste or do not have the right
> background.  However, it is of relevance in evaluating his educational
> background on topics where he professed knowledge, such as asanas or
> the siddhis or vedic science. 

And assuming titles. How do you feel when someone who's not a
physicians calls themselves a "doctor" (and infers they are a medical
doctor).

When it comes to mantra yoga, mantras can be authentically given by
puja. But there's a bit more to mantra yoga than what we were lead to
believe.

> I have never been clear on how he came up with transcendental
> meditation, i.e., the routine and the mantras.  What did he say
about it?

The party line is he got them from Swami Brahmananda. The only
problems with that is that Swami Brahmananda's oral teachings are in
opposition to what MMY taught, although MMY does pepper his teachings
with bits and pieces of authentic information and wisdom, most of
which is well known by spiritual Indians.

One of his most interesting faux pas is the claim that other
meditation techniques have traditionally taught some form of forced
concentration, meditation that involves straining. It's a red
herring--of course having read or heard that, you're almost afraid to
try anything else! Here's the whole spiel, which is easily refutable
as hype and posturing, but it's still a pretty entertaining read:

http://tinyurl.com/34bras

" By the process of comparing his own direct experience of 
the actual goal of meditation with the common understanding then 
available, it became clear to Maharishi that the common idea of 
what meditation was supposed to be was in fact a complete 
distortion of the original meaning of the ancient procedure. 
Procedures of concentration or of forcing the mind to be free of 
content, with or without the use of a sensory medium such as an 
auditory or visual focus, seemed to him to lead away from, 
rather than toward, the desired result. At every stage of 
experimentation, Mahar

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:16 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:




The TM mythos is filled with the tacit implication or even insistence
that MMY was fully enlightened. In fact during his death ceremonies
they kept repeating that he wasn't just enlightened, but the most
enlightened rishi of all yugas!





Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory?  How else could he
rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?


I think it's understood by most reasonable and objective folks who've  
done a little lookin', that "TM is nothing new under the sun", it's  
not something he's "restored", in fact it's a ubiquitous form of basic  
meditation.


There are still many people who will repeat, matter-a-factly, that TM  
is a form of "Vedic" meditation, but nothing could be farther from the  
truth. Movement representatives will still parrot this obviously false  
information. Most of them probably either aren't aware of the fact (we  
were always told NOT to investigate the Vedas or "Vedic texts" on our  
own, as it would just "confuse" us) or if they are, they're afraid to  
go against what the founder said or they are out-and-out TB's.




 And
rediscover and correct Ayurveda?  Or, as the TMO says in information I
was reading recently: "Maharishi completely restored the thousands of
years-old scattered Vedic Literature for the total significance of its
theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which offers a
science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using methods
that are completely free from harmful side effects."


This is particularly incorrect in regards to Ayurveda, which he  
diluted, although he did help popularize it. Dr. Pete tells an  
interesting story of a Vaidya or scholar that came and gave a lecture  
on Ayurveda at MIU IIRC and later when the tapes were made, they  
edited out so much of what the speakers lecture said that didn't jive  
with official movement "think" that it no longer even resembled what  
the guy was actually saying!



Vaj, I take it that you are saying that MMY is not a Yogi under the
applicable traditions.  I don't think anyone really disputes that.


Oh my heavens Ruth, prepare to be stoned! He was a yogi who lived in  
the Valley of the Saints and then came to the land of mud to bring to  
TM to the world, based on a recurring thought he kept having while  
trying to meditate.


Actually one of the Shankaracharya's of Jyotir Math IIRC and a fellow  
student of SBS has come out and said that MMY was not trained as a yogi.



One of the few things that does not bother me about MMY is the
breaking from tradition, going from being a secretary to a teacher.
If someone feels that they have something of value to teach, fine by
me, even if they are not in the right caste or do not have the right
background.  However, it is of relevance in evaluating his educational
background on topics where he professed knowledge, such as asanas or
the siddhis or vedic science.


And assuming titles. How do you feel when someone who's not a  
physicians calls themselves a "doctor" (and infers they are a medical  
doctor).


When it comes to mantra yoga, mantras can be authentically given by  
puja. But there's a bit more to mantra yoga than what we were lead to  
believe.



I have never been clear on how he came up with transcendental
meditation, i.e., the routine and the mantras.  What did he say  
about it?


The party line is he got them from Swami Brahmananda. The only  
problems with that is that Swami Brahmananda's oral teachings are in  
opposition to what MMY taught, although MMY does pepper his teachings  
with bits and pieces of authentic information and wisdom, most of  
which is well known by spiritual Indians.


One of his most interesting faux pas is the claim that other  
meditation techniques have traditionally taught some form of forced  
concentration, meditation that involves straining. It's a red herring-- 
of course having read or heard that, you're almost afraid to try  
anything else! Here's the whole spiel, which is easily refutable as  
hype and posturing, but it's still a pretty entertaining read:


http://tinyurl.com/34bras

" By the process of comparing his own direct experience of
the actual goal of meditation with the common understanding then
available, it became clear to Maharishi that the common idea of
what meditation was supposed to be was in fact a complete
distortion of the original meaning of the ancient procedure.
Procedures of concentration or of forcing the mind to be free of
content, with or without the use of a sensory medium such as an
auditory or visual focus, seemed to him to lead away from,
rather than toward, the desired result. At every stage of
experimentation, Maharishi held to the guideline given him by
his master that maximum

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[enlightened_dawn11]

exactly. he thinks the 12 of us who have called him on his BS are
upset and hateful towards him. nothing could be further from the
truth. we think he is an arrogant little jerk parading around like
some great teacher, and trashing the Maharishi and TM in the process.

he is a delusional little fellow who lives in his head, thinking as he
said that only he knows the truth, and the rest of us are ignorant
fools - really pathetic stuff. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> 
> > When someone is given (or in this case takes) a title,
> > as per the previous description by the Dalai Lama on
> > the qualifications of a teacher which flipped everyone
> > out so much,
> 
> In fact, as Vaj knows, *nobody* was "flipped out" by
> the Dalai Lama's description, or disturbed by it in
> the slightest. Some of us were annoyed at the way Vaj
> tried to use it to dump on MMY.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:

> When someone is given (or in this case takes) a title,
> as per the previous description by the Dalai Lama on
> the qualifications of a teacher which flipped everyone
> out so much,

In fact, as Vaj knows, *nobody* was "flipped out" by
the Dalai Lama's description, or disturbed by it in
the slightest. Some of us were annoyed at the way Vaj
tried to use it to dump on MMY.


> One case and point

("case in point")

 brought this home very clearly just recently.  
> Someone had posted links to old lectures of MMY. One
> was on mantra from the Rishikesh days. So I listened
> to them to see how they were. And the guy had no idea
> how to answer. Very nervous with much nervous laughter.

Or, what Vaj is pleased to describe as nervousness.

 MMY biographer Paul Mason later described it and I
> thought how refreshing it was that someone else had
> the exact same impression. Here I was expecting some
> great explanations,

How many here believe Vaj was "expecting some great
explanations" from Maharishi?

And how many think whatever MMY had said, Vaj would
have found some way to trash it?

My memory of this episode is that someone asked MMY
whether he got the mantras from Guru Dev, and MMY
laughed and said he didn't know what mantras Guru
Dev used because they were given out privately. If
that's what Vaj is referring to, he's seriously
misrepresenting the exchange.

 but not so. Of course  
> I've already brought up the asana course thing--they
> were written by a gym teacher.

Here's how Vaj brought up what he calls the "asana
course thing" before:

"If M. was a yogi, he could have easily written a
brilliant book [on hatha yoga] or even better a
course with his sharp intellect. But this is clearly
not the case. Instead they found a HS gym teacher
to do so and those formed the sets used for rounding.
I'm sure many here have the booklets (which now
circulate in PDF form)."

So Vaj knew, when he first mentioned it, that it
wasn't a "course" at all, much less a book.  It was
a few sheets with crude stick-figure-like drawings
to serve as aides-memoirs of the postures (which
were actually demonstrated by TM teachers to course
participants).

At the time, it was pointed out to Vaj that the asana
sheets were never intended to be anything remotely
like a "course" or "book" on hatha yoga, nor did
they require any deep knowledge of it. It was
something a gym teacher with some knowledge of very
basic, simple yoga asanas *could* put together on
his own and make the drawings for, most likely with
guidance from MMY as to which postures to use. For
this purpose, there was zero need for MMY to do any
more than that.

The point of the asanas in rounding, at least at the
time they were introduced and for years after that
(there may have been recent changes, for all I know)
was simply to make for a bit of physical activity
between meditations. There was no concern whatsoever
about how meditators did them, just that they go
approximately through the motions to move the body
around some.

Later, MMY *did* come out with an actual hatha yoga
course, but that wasn't what the gym teacher Vaj is
talking about helped with. Vaj is attempting to
make readers think MMY had a highschool gym teacher
create a whole course or book on hatha yoga, but that
wasn't the case at all, as he knows.

 These are very touchy things to even mention here  
> (apparently)

They're "touchy" because they're mostly bullshit.

> --and will probably drive more hate mail

Vaj's posts are a lot closer to "hate mail" than
the posts that correct his many misstatements.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Sal Sunshine]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:


The TM mythos is filled with the tacit implication or even insistence
that MMY was fully enlightened. In fact during his death ceremonies
they kept repeating that he wasn't just enlightened, but the most
enlightened rishi of all yugas!


Yeah, but could he boogie?

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> The TM mythos is filled with the tacit implication or even insistence  
> that MMY was fully enlightened. In fact during his death ceremonies  
> they kept repeating that he wasn't just enlightened, but the most  
> enlightened rishi of all yugas!
> 
>


Doesn't MMY need to be enlightened under TM theory?  How else could he
rediscover what he claimed were lost mediation techniques?  And
rediscover and correct Ayurveda?  Or, as the TMO says in information I
was reading recently: "Maharishi completely restored the thousands of
years-old scattered Vedic Literature for the total significance of its
theory and practice, and organized it in the form of a complete
science of consciousness. Maharishi's Vedic Science includes the
restoration of the ancient Vedic system of health care, which offers a
science and technology for unfolding perfection in life, using methods
that are completely free from harmful side effects."

Vaj, I take it that you are saying that MMY is not a Yogi under the
applicable traditions.  I don't think anyone really disputes that. 
One of the few things that does not bother me about MMY is the
breaking from tradition, going from being a secretary to a teacher. 
If someone feels that they have something of value to teach, fine by
me, even if they are not in the right caste or do not have the right
background.  However, it is of relevance in evaluating his educational
background on topics where he professed knowledge, such as asanas or
the siddhis or vedic science. 

I have never been clear on how he came up with transcendental
meditation, i.e., the routine and the mantras.  What did he say about it?
 




>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Vaj the honest and forthright

[Vaj]

On Feb 19, 2009, at 1:57 PM, BillyG. wrote:


No, an actual yogi, as in an practitioner and realizer of yoga-
darshana as opposed to someone without any of the aforementioned, but
nonetheless promotes him or herself as a "yogi".


MMY never claimed to be enlightened, if anything he suggested
otherwise when he made the comment that even a Doctor who was sick
could prescribe medicine for a sick person, paraphrased.


The TM mythos is filled with the tacit implication or even insistence  
that MMY was fully enlightened. In fact during his death ceremonies  
they kept repeating that he wasn't just enlightened, but the most  
enlightened rishi of all yugas!



Even I am a Yogi, only because I meditate.  It's really a generic term
and he certainly NEVER said he was a Guru or a Sat-Guru, he's offering
*Yoga-lite for modernity*, the only Yoga modernity is capable of
getting any benefit from, at its present state of evolution. I think
in the context you're speaking you mean a *realized* Yogi, or Jivan
Mukti, yes?


When someone is given (or in this case takes) a title, as per the  
previous description by the Dalai Lama on the qualifications of a  
teacher which flipped everyone out so much, they know the texts as  
lineally taught and the states of consciousness, all the meditative  
experiences, that go along with it. Because they possess both relative  
and experiential knowledge, they can authentically teach (i.e. not  
just make things up as they go along or stumble through things). In  
many cases it also indicates that they've received certain  
initiations, depending on your tradition, what that means might vary.  
Then the student is left with both authentic experiential knowledge of  
yoga-vidya and the texts to jog their own memories and a way to pass  
it on.


One case and point brought this home very clearly just recently.  
Someone had posted links to old lectures of MMY. One was on mantra  
from the Rishikesh days. So I listened to them to see how they were.  
And the guy had no idea how to answer. Very nervous with much nervous  
laughter. MMY biographer Paul Mason later described it and I thought  
how refreshing it was that someone else had the exact same impression.  
Here I was expecting some great explanations, but not so. Of course  
I've already brought up the asana course thing--they were written by a  
gym teacher. These are very touchy things to even mention here  
(apparently)--and will probably drive more hate mail--but it's this  
type of thing I was referring to.