subject:"Re\: \[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Lenz \-\- Sex and Business Practices \/ Ethics"





> > The way that can be spoken is not 
the Constant Way. Enlightenment isn't > something you can describe, so 
why try?It's fun!--I can describe it but you won't understand or like my 
description.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics






 
I agree with Sal and Sparaig re consenting adults and IMO, anyone who 
thinks Monica didn't know exactly what she was doing is a tad naive. If someone 
is forced, then it becomes more than a private matter but you seem to assume 
that these women were so outgunned they couldn't exert any free will, that there 
was some evil mojo worked on them rendering them helpless and incapable of 
saying no. Rick, where do you draw the line with regard to "unequal power"? As I 
mentioned in another post, I have known women who would laugh at the suggestion 
that they were being taken advantage of because they were having sexual affairs 
with "powerful" men... these women knew they were wielding a great amount of 
power themselves. How much sex would there be if "equal power" were a condition 
of slipping between the sheets? Who (other than the consenting participants) 
should determine if the power is equal? 
 
--Louis Quatorze had it figured out - Head or 
behead.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-19 Thread Don





 
Rick Archer wrote:
on
6/19/05 1:09 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I
don't know, Rick, I could be all wet on this, but it sounds to me like
you're almost suggesting putting someone in the stocks, figuratively speaking. 
For once I agree with Sparaig, what goes on between adults in a *consensual*
matter should stay there.

But
are all adults created equal? Bill and Monica? Gurus in their mid-50s
and women in their early 20s? Is it OK for men in positions of power and
authority to use that power and authority to have relationships that would
not occur if they were ordinary guys? Especially if those relationships
conflict with their publicly-stated lifestyle (marriage  Bill, or
monkhood  MMY)? Is it OK if those relationships compromise their ability
to perform their jobs, or is that their business? On this last question,
Im inclined to say its their business, but its the right of those who
elected them or follow them to react as they see fit.
 

I agree with Sal and Sparaig re consenting adults and IMO, anyone
who thinks Monica didn't know exactly what she was doing is a tad naive.
If someone is forced, then it becomes more than a private matter but
you seem to assume that these women were so outgunned they couldn't exert
any free will, that there was some evil mojo worked on them rendering them
helpless and incapable of saying no. Rick, where do you draw the line with
regard to "unequal power"? As I mentioned in another post, I have known
women who would laugh at the suggestion that they were being taken advantage
of because they were having sexual affairs with "powerful" men... these
women knew they were wielding a great amount of power themselves. How much
sex would there be if "equal power" were a condition of slipping between
the sheets? Who (other than the consenting participants) should determine
if the power is equal?


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/19/05 8:10 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
>>> Of course, but why did the World Press give
>>> Maharishi such immunity?
>>> Aside from a report from the Beatles era, what press
>>> rumors of this 
>>> surfaced in the last 50 years?
>> 
>> None to the best of my knowledge. But it seems to have
>> occurred between people commited to the TMO and MMY,
>> not celebrities like Mia Farrow.
> 
> But you DO hear such oddities about other gurus and their students or
> former students in the press. Almost never about MMY.

That is an interesting point. Maybe M was more discreet. Maybe M's women
were more reticent to go public, like Radha did with the Muktananda story
(http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/Radha_story.htm - She was a member here
for a while) or various women with Amrit Desai. It may also have something
to do with the way different organizations handle damage control. In any
event, Judith Bourke, who is currently living in Sweden, says she has
written a book which she plans to publish after M dies. Maybe the press will
find that interesting. Jennifer says she hasn't really told her story yet,
aside from relating some of it to Ned Wynn and his wife. We'll see what she
decides to do. Maybe the whole thing will die a quiet death, all sorts of
fanciful myths will be concocted, and 2,000 years from now some guy will
make a fortune writing a best seller claiming that M had progeny. 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/19/05 7:54 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Right. But if Bill wasn¹t president, or MMY head of an organization
> that
>> attracted many young people, or Mick Jagger lead singer of the Rolling
>> Stones, it¹s unlikely any of them would have had all the women they
> did.
> 
> 
> Just how many women did MMY allegedly sleep with and over what period
> of time?

I know the names of 5 or 6, and there accounts of others, unnamed. The time
frame seems to span mid-60's through early 70's.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/19/05 7:44 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Of course, but why did the World Press give Maharishi such immunity?
> Aside from a report from the Beatles era,

The Rolling Stone interview with John Lennon, June, 1970.

>what press rumors of this
> surfaced in the last 50 years?

Linda Williams Pearce (photo here: http://tinyurl.com/cvowh) told her story
to the press in S. Africa in the 70's. That stirred up the movement down
there. When I was teaching in Detroit around 1983 a big story came out in
the Detroit Free Press or Detroit News, forget which. It didn't do much more
than rehash the Rishikesh story. There may have been others, but they would
have been isolated. It's not like he's Tom Cruise or something.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Exactly.  And similar habits for Roosevelt.

Sal


On Jun 19, 2005, at 7:48 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

While Churchill smoked, drank, and used profanity.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics



--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > --- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > on 6/19/05 1:09 PM, Sal Sunshine at
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I don't know, Rick, I could be all wet on
> this,
> > > but it sounds to me like
> > > > you're almost suggesting putting someone in
> the
> > > stocks, figuratively speaking.
> > > > For once I agree with Sparaig, what goes on
> > > between adults in a *consensual*
> > > > matter should stay there.
> > > > 
> > > But are all adults created equal? Bill and
> Monica?
> > > Gurus in their mid-50¹s
> > > and women in their early 20¹s? Is it OK for men
> in
> > > positions of power and
> > > authority to use that power and authority to
> have
> > > relationships that would
> > > not occur if they were ordinary guys? Especially
> if
> > > those relationships
> > > conflict with their publicly-stated lifestyle
> > > (marriage  Bill, or monkhood
> > >  MMY)? Is it OK if those relationships
> compromise
> > > their ability to perform
> > > their jobs, or is that their business? On this
> last
> > > question, I¹m inclined
> > > to say it¹s their business, but it¹s the right
> of
> > > those who elected them or
> > > follow them to react as they see fit.
> > 
> > It's not so much the sexual behavior that is
> > bothersome, but the implicit deception involved in
> > presenting one's self as a celibate monk and then
> > pursuing sex with course participants/staff behind
> > closed doors.
> > 
> >
> 
> Of course, but why did the World Press give
> Maharishi such immunity? 
> Aside from a report from the Beatles era, what press
> rumors of this 
> surfaced in the last 50 years?

None to the best of my knowledge. But it seems to have
occurred between people commited to the TMO and MMY,
not celebrities like Mia Farrow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To subscribe, send a message to:
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> 
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 




 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics





on 6/19/05 6:03 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Jun 19, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Rick Archer wrote: 

I guess I have this notion that rationality and self control in one’s personal life – in other words, a healthy, balanced personality - somehow correlate with the ability to conduct oneself as a leader of a country or spiritual organization.  
 
That is what you are supposed to think, and what the people who elected Hitler did think.  On paper he looked great--impeccable personal habits, vegetarian, early-riser, etc. 

While Churchill smoked, drank, and used profanity.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics






True
 
But I'm no Maharishi. I'm just a bottom feeding 
bodhisattva.
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: akasha_108 
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 6:28 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / 
Ethics
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
"Llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> 
It's hard to imagine Maharishi giving lectures about things withpussy on his 
face, or with cum still wanking off his cock after aquick blow job to 
restore his spirits. Why? You lecture us like that all the time. 
:)To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

--- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> Sutphen 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Yes, what is usually discussed on an e-mail list
> are
> > > peoples' mental models of enlightenment and how
> wrong
> > > you are if you don't express your experience of
> > > enlightenment within the confines of my mental
> model.
> > 
> > How about: "How futile it is to attempt to express
> experiences, 
> > period?"
> 
> So Maharishi's book and talks about the experience
> of enlightenment and how it varies from CC to UC
> are just so much futile bullshit, right?

I think they serve two purposes. First, waking state
inspiration and entertainment. Second, a set of
conceptual tools so when such experiences start to
occur the mind can understand what is happening. This
prevents one from confusing enlightenment with
elephant dick pushing. :-)

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

That's a good question Sal. I think there's some
projection on our part of God/Father archetype. It's
hard to think that God could be deceptive and horny.

--- Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That's a lot easier to understand, IMO, since nobody
> likes being 
> deceived. I just wonder why this deception seems to
> get so much more 
> ink than any of the others.
> 
> Sal
> 
> 
> On Jun 19, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Peter Sutphen wrote:
> 
> >  It's not so much the sexual behavior that is
> >  bothersome, but the implicit deception involved
> in
> >  presenting one's self as a celibate monk and then
> >  pursuing sex with course participants/staff
> behind
> >  closed doors.

__
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

On Jun 19, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

I guess I have this notion that rationality and self control in one’s personal life – in other words, a healthy, balanced personality - somehow correlate with the ability to conduct oneself as a leader of a country or spiritual organization. 

That is what you are supposed to think, and what the people who elected Hitler did think.  On paper he looked great--impeccable personal habits, vegetarian, early-riser, etc.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics





on 6/19/05 5:43 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Jun 19, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Rick Archer wrote: 
Shouldn’t the president of the US be more capable of making rational decisions than a starry-eyed young intern? Isn’t that why we elected him? 
 
We elected him to make rational decisions about sex?  

I guess I have this notion that rationality and self control in one’s personal life – in other words, a healthy, balanced personality - somehow correlate with the ability to conduct oneself as a leader of a country or spiritual organization. Could it be that lack of such qualities might result in the tendency to make erratic, poorly-thought-out administrative decisions?



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/19/05 5:28 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

That's a lot easier to understand, IMO, since nobody likes being deceived. I just wonder why this deception seems to get so much more ink than any of the others.

It probably shouldn’t, although if deceptions may be classified by degrees of egregiousness, I find this one high on the list, but maybe that’s just my hang-up. However, taking them all as a package, you wonder what the implications are, regarding what enlightenment is, how cults form, whether people on the outside have any responsibility to those still in them, or whether the latter should be allowed to “enjoy” the boat they’ve gotten in until they decide to leave it from their site, etc., etc.

Sal

On Jun 19, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Peter Sutphen wrote:

It's not so much the sexual behavior that is
bothersome, but the implicit deception involved in
presenting one's self as a celibate monk and then
pursuing sex with course participants/staff behind
closed doors.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics






It's hard to imagine Maharishi giving lectures about 
things with pussy on his face, or with cum still wanking off his cock after a 
quick blow job to restore his spirits. But it brings more meaning to the 200% of 
life thing.
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Rick Archer 

To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices 
/ Ethics
on 6/19/05 3:11 PM, Peter Sutphen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:> > It's not so much the sexual behavior that is> 
bothersome, but the implicit deception involved in> presenting one's self 
as a celibate monk and then> pursuing sex with course participants/staff 
behind> closed doors.Right. And the reckless attitude that 
reveals, if you're really out toenlighten the world. Not to speak of the 
contradiction such behavior impliesbetween your behavior and enlightenment 
as you have defined it.To subscribe, send a 
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click 'Join This Group!' 



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

On Jun 19, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Rick Archer wrote:
Shouldn’t the president of the US be more capable of making rational decisions than a starry-eyed young intern? Isn’t that why we elected him?

We elected him to make rational decisions about sex? 

Right. But if Bill wasn’t president, or MMY head of an organization that attracted many young people, or Mick Jagger lead singer of the Rolling Stones, it’s unlikely any of them would have had all the women they did. 

I'll bet you anything both Bill and Mick had more women than they knew what to do with before they became famous.

Their fame and power made them chick magnets. It may be OK for rock stars to take advantage of that – it doesn’t compromise their ability to do their job. But in the other instances it does. It was their choice, but I don’t see why their “status” should place them above, at the very least, having people discuss the appropriateness of their actions. 

It shouldn't, of course, and that is the whole point I'm trying to make (albeit probably not very well--just got back from the lake with my kids.)  Status is usually in the eyes of the beholder. Since I never looked upon MMY as my guru, I never had the emotional investment you and a number of others do, hence the potential for disappointment was much less.  

I still wonder, though, why his deceptions in this area are given so much more attention than all the financial as well as other types of shenanigans the TMO has routinely engaged in.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

That's a lot easier to understand, IMO, since nobody likes being deceived. I just wonder why this deception seems to get so much more ink than any of the others.

Sal


On Jun 19, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Peter Sutphen wrote:

 It's not so much the sexual behavior that is
 bothersome, but the implicit deception involved in
 presenting one's self as a celibate monk and then
 pursuing sex with course participants/staff behind
 closed doors.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/19/05 5:04 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Jun 19, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

But are all adults created equal? Bill and Monica?

Shouldn’t the president of the US be more capable of making rational decisions than a starry-eyed young intern? Isn’t that why we elected him?

That doesn't excuse Bill's inappropriate actions, if indeed they were. But a better question might be to ask *why* young women often seek out relationships with older men or men in power. The answers, whatever they are, are complex, and it does little good to simply assign blame to one or the other. Our society clearly undervalues young women big-time, and sets them up for these situations.

Interesting reflections on these questions in an article entitled “Women Who Sleep with their Gurus” from What is Enlightenment magazine, in the Files section: http://tinyurl.com/bt7sp and also archived at http://www.wie.org/j26/women-who-sleep.asp?ifr=srch

Gurus in their mid-50’s and women in their early 20’s? Is it OK for men in positions of power and authority to use that power and authority to have relationships that would not occur if they were ordinary guys?

You don't know that--and who's really ordinary anyway? That's one of the big problems with putting someone on a pedestal--much farther to fall.

Right. But if Bill wasn’t president, or MMY head of an organization that attracted many young people, or Mick Jagger lead singer of the Rolling Stones, it’s unlikely any of them would have had all the women they did. Their fame and power made them chick magnets. It may be OK for rock stars to take advantage of that – it doesn’t compromise their ability to do their job. But in the other instances it does. It was their choice, but I don’t see why their “status” should place them above, at the very least, having people discuss the appropriateness of their actions.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

On Jun 19, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

But are all adults created equal? Bill and Monica?

Such an attitude really presupposes that women who are younger are automatically less capable of making rational decisions. In effect, it's very condescending. As I recall, it was Monica who initiated the whole thing. That doesn't excuse Bill's inappropriate actions, if indeed they were. But a better question might be to ask *why* young women often seek out relationships with older men or men in power. The answers, whatever they are, are complex, and it does little good to simply assign blame to one or the other. Our society clearly undervalues young women big-time, and sets them up for these situations.

You don't know that--and who's really ordinary anyway? That's one of the big problems with putting someone on a pedestal--much farther to fall.

Especially if those relationships conflict with their publicly-stated lifestyle (marriage – Bill, or monkhood – MMY)? Is it OK if those relationships compromise their ability to perform their jobs, or is that their business? On this last question, I’m inclined to say it’s their business, but it’s the right of those who elected them or follow them to react as they see fit.

Sure, no argument with your last statement.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/19/05 3:11 PM, Peter Sutphen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> It's not so much the sexual behavior that is
> bothersome, but the implicit deception involved in
> presenting one's self as a celibate monk and then
> pursuing sex with course participants/staff behind
> closed doors.

Right. And the reckless attitude that reveals, if you're really out to
enlighten the world. Not to speak of the contradiction such behavior implies
between your behavior and enlightenment as you have defined it.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics



--- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 6/19/05 1:09 PM, Sal Sunshine at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > I don't know, Rick, I could be all wet on this,
> but it sounds to me like
> > you're almost suggesting putting someone in the
> stocks, figuratively speaking.
> > For once I agree with Sparaig, what goes on
> between adults in a *consensual*
> > matter should stay there.
> > 
> But are all adults created equal? Bill and Monica?
> Gurus in their mid-50¹s
> and women in their early 20¹s? Is it OK for men in
> positions of power and
> authority to use that power and authority to have
> relationships that would
> not occur if they were ordinary guys? Especially if
> those relationships
> conflict with their publicly-stated lifestyle
> (marriage  Bill, or monkhood
>  MMY)? Is it OK if those relationships compromise
> their ability to perform
> their jobs, or is that their business? On this last
> question, I¹m inclined
> to say it¹s their business, but it¹s the right of
> those who elected them or
> follow them to react as they see fit.

It's not so much the sexual behavior that is
bothersome, but the implicit deception involved in
presenting one's self as a celibate monk and then
pursuing sex with course participants/staff behind
closed doors.




> 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics





on 6/19/05 1:09 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I don't know, Rick, I could be all wet on this, but it sounds to me like you're almost suggesting putting someone in the stocks, figuratively speaking.  For once I agree with Sparaig, what goes on between adults in a *consensual* matter should stay there. 

But are all adults created equal? Bill and Monica? Gurus in their mid-50’s and women in their early 20’s? Is it OK for men in positions of power and authority to use that power and authority to have relationships that would not occur if they were ordinary guys? Especially if those relationships conflict with their publicly-stated lifestyle (marriage – Bill, or monkhood – MMY)? Is it OK if those relationships compromise their ability to perform their jobs, or is that their business? On this last question, I’m inclined to say it’s their business, but it’s the right of those who elected them or follow them to react as they see fit.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

I don't know, Rick, I could be all wet on this, but it sounds to me like you're almost suggesting putting someone in the stocks, figuratively speaking.  For once I agree with Sparaig, what goes on between adults in a *consensual* matter should stay there.

I also wonder why nobody brought it up at the time.

Sal


On Jun 19, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

Those
 whose trust is violated often end up deeply disillusioned regarding
 spiritual matters. Is that a private matter, or should gurus be held to a
 higher standard in a more public manner

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/18/05 10:56 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> I think its very tenuous and slippery to assume that Rick is being
>> honest with himself or anyone else when he says things like he does.
>> The consensual sexual activities of an adult human with another adult
>> human are usually considered to be a private matter, unless you're a
>> prude. Amazing how many prudes there are on this forum...

Don't you think there should be a sacred trust between gurus and their
disciples? The latter come to the former for the highest of purposes. Those
whose trust is violated often end up deeply disillusioned regarding
spiritual matters. Is that a private matter, or should gurus be held to a
higher standard in a more public manner, as product manufacturers are if
their products are flawed in such a way as to injure people?
> 
>   Well that's the second time I have been accussed of being a prude on
> this forum. Let me assure you without going into any specfics, I'm not
> a prude and I generally don't care who fucks who. But I am concerned
> about ethics and honesty. I have no reason to doubt Rick's honesty.
> The other people reporting in the 'sexy sade' file I do not know. I
> think that Maharishi's conduct has been dishonest in several areas.
> Screwing students is ethically unacceptable in almost all
> circumstances. Financial fraud is also dishonest and unethical. I have
> witnessed that directly. That's about as plain as I can make it.
> 
> JohnY





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-18 Thread Vaj

On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Peter Sutphen wrote:

>> In many traditions one checks ones View, their inner
>> experience and POV
>> with a teacher who's 'been there, done that'. I
>> can't tell you how many
>> people I've met who thought they were enlightened
>> after a certain
>> experience or shift in awareness. In every case the
>> experience was a
>> symptom of some part of awakening or some aspect of
>> the Path. In the
>> first part of my training a portion was on people
>> who will report
>> instances of enlightenment after practicing certain
>> practices, so there
>> is a practical literature out there on this very
>> topic, it's just not
>> generally discussed outside the tradition (let alone
>> on email lists).
>>
>> -V.
>
> Yes, what is usually discussed on an e-mail list are
> peoples' mental models of enlightenment and how wrong
> you are if you don't express your experience of
> enlightenment within the confines of my mental model.

Yeah, but that should not be used as an excuse to not debate or engage 
in rigorous intellectual learning. It turns out, these are an essential 
part of creating a framework where true enlightenment can manifest. 
Consider some sects of Tibetan Buddhist monks--they will spend half 
their lives in meditation, but the other half in rigorous debate. The 
reason is it is important to have that debate in order to create a 
fertile ground for the non-conceptual to take lasting root. This is 
especialy true in the era we live in today. In fact, it is these 
accumulations of good karma that allow that to happen. In New Age forms 
of eastern spirituality this is often discouraged. Depending on the 
path, this might be a warning sign that either the teacher does not 
know the path as he claims or there simply isn't a path to 
enlightenment being taught--that is, it's a false path and/or false 
View.

As an example, before one learns the YS, one is taught what 
intellectual knowledge one must gain for the system to work and what 
virtues one must accumulate. As a further example, there are certain 
experiences one needs to accumulate *before* some siddhis can manifest 
(in this case accomplishment siddhis, not "yogic" siddhis).

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-18 Thread Peter Sutphen



--- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:03 AM, jyouells2000 wrote:
> 
> > Agreed 'sign's of awakening' can only be self
> reported. The difference
> > between nearly infinite and infinite is infinite.
> It's a catagory
> > difference. Once it is clearly known that
> unbounded is not a 'really
> > big space', and that eternal is not a 'really long
> time' the whole
> > idea of relative signs falls apart...
> 
> In many traditions one checks ones View, their inner
> experience and POV 
> with a teacher who's 'been there, done that'. I
> can't tell you how many 
> people I've met who thought they were enlightened
> after a certain 
> experience or shift in awareness. In every case the
> experience was a 
> symptom of some part of awakening or some aspect of
> the Path. In the 
> first part of my training a portion was on people
> who will report 
> instances of enlightenment after practicing certain
> practices, so there 
> is a practical literature out there on this very
> topic, it's just not 
> generally discussed outside the tradition (let alone
> on email lists).
> 
> -V.

Yes, what is usually discussed on an e-mail list are
peoples' mental models of enlightenment and how wrong
you are if you don't express your experience of
enlightenment within the confines of my mental model.



> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 




 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-18 Thread Vaj

On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:03 AM, jyouells2000 wrote:

> Agreed 'sign's of awakening' can only be self reported. The difference
> between nearly infinite and infinite is infinite. It's a catagory
> difference. Once it is clearly known that unbounded is not a 'really
> big space', and that eternal is not a 'really long time' the whole
> idea of relative signs falls apart...

In many traditions one checks ones View, their inner experience and POV 
with a teacher who's 'been there, done that'. I can't tell you how many 
people I've met who thought they were enlightened after a certain 
experience or shift in awareness. In every case the experience was a 
symptom of some part of awakening or some aspect of the Path. In the 
first part of my training a portion was on people who will report 
instances of enlightenment after practicing certain practices, so there 
is a practical literature out there on this very topic, it's just not 
generally discussed outside the tradition (let alone on email lists).

-V.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/17/05 7:50 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Neither was I. I was merely pointing out that their decision to get
> away from the TMO may be the right one for THEM, but may not say
> anything about anyone who choses to stay around.

I totally agree with you for once. Staying in the TMO may be the best thing
for some people. Maybe not for life. Or maybe for life. Whatever floats your
boat.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/17/05 4:29 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Sounds like standard business practices, although not necessarily
> good ones. MMY used to tell people that they had a responsibility to
> inform him when his OWN behavior was offending Gurudev's dignity. I
> take it that such discussions were never made, or if made,
> automatically resulted in dismissal?

Never heard him say that but if you did, I don't doubt you. Would have taken
guts to actually do it. Unless you wanted to get kicked out. Then it would
have been a cool way to do it.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/17/05 4:27 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> No, I was just saying that with decades of meditation under one's
> belt, the
>> liberating influence of breaking free from a situation which
> encourages or
>> imposes entrenched thinking may be sufficient to tip one over the
> edge. Or
>> maybe it works the other way around. Maybe as one gets close to the
> edge one
>> feels the impulse to distance oneself from such situations.
> 
> MMY's claims that someone who is enlightened never makes mistakes
> (that reduce/slow their evolution towards higher states).
> 
I wasn't implying that these people were making a mistake.

(now over 400 posts behind but taking pot shots)





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/15/05 9:42 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> on 6/15/05 2:23 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 If it jeopardizes the company, you bet it gets dealt with somehow.
> If
>>> it
 doesn't, the company goes down.
>>> 
>>> Which personal behavior of MMY's has jeapordized the TMO?
>> 
>> If I enumerated them you'd dismiss them as unfounded rumors and we'd
> be
>> going in circles, so let's drop it.
> 
> Uh-huh. Something other than the sex?

Well that's one thing on the list. He lost many valuable people over that
one. Unethical business practices are another. (Such as telling young men to
smuggle suitcases of cash from one country to another to avoid paying taxes,
and then having to bribe officials to get the young men out of jail.)
> 
> Sounds to me like you've got a certain obsession, which you've been
> unable to drop.
> 
> LoL...





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/15/05 8:33 PM, akasha_108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> on 6/15/05 5:35 PM, Peter Sutphen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>>> CC is "baby" awakening. Cessation of identification of
> consciousness with
>>> mind. End of "I" and "me".
>>> 
>> Fine, but it¹s a significant milestone  one which people often seem to
>> reach when they¹ve been meditating for decades and allow themselves
> to break
>> free of conditioned beliefs and judgments.
> 
> Wow, now one only need to break free of free of conditioned beliefs
> and judgments? I did that 25 years ago when I left the TMO. And
> regularly at other significant phased of my life. Little did I know
> that CC had dawned! This spiritual evolution stuff is getting easier
> and easier.

No, I was just saying that with decades of meditation under one's belt, the
liberating influence of breaking free from a situation which encourages or
imposes entrenched thinking may be sufficient to tip one over the edge. Or
maybe it works the other way around. Maybe as one gets close to the edge one
feels the impulse to distance oneself from such situations.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-16 Thread Llundrub






Like I said before my initiator saw all the devas. I 
would ask him every week. Hey, you seen The Ancient of Days, and he would think 
for a second and say, yes. Hey, have you seen Ganesha? Yes.
 
- Original Message - 
From: jim_flanegin 

To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 4:26 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / 
Ethics
another 'air sign', with coffee...ok, here goes:I had 
a slightly different experience with the movement, in that I was always very 
open about my experiences- with Guru Dev and other stuff, like the time a 
Gita study class was going on, everyone in a circle and I saw tendrils of 
energy or smoke moving from everyone's crown area joining up to a point in 
the center of the circle and some figure sitting at that point. Whatever, 
flashy, hoo-hah! 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-16 Thread Peter Sutphen

In my early days in the TMO from '72 to '78 there always was some structured activity for people to share and talk about their experiences. This was not discouraged in the least. But starting with the big Amherst course in '79 this pretty much stopped. It does seem rather ironic that a spiritual movement who's primary goal is enlightenment does not encourage its members to talk about their experiences regarding this goal. I've always seen this as a political decision. I believe Bevan et al wanted to hold on to the interpretive power or the sanctioned narrative of enlightenment. This then assured them of the "purity of the teaching" and sole control over the meaning of enlightenment. God forbid there could be people out there in the TMO in higher states of consciousness who disagreed with MMY or the TMO. These people had to be marginalized. And they were by not allowing personal talk of enlightenment. Enlightenment was only discussed as an
inspiration to continue with some program or to adhere to some organizational rule. So now the TMO discourse of enlightenment is filled with meaningless buzz words used to control rather than to deepen understanding. This seems to happen to all spiritual organizations when those in power have no experiences that gave rise to the spiritual movement in the first place. Then the picture frame becomes more important than the picture.
TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

snip
And there is a good reason for this. If they had started having "good experiences" and tried to talkabout them within the TMO, what would have happenedto them? Among the teachers, even the teachers ofso-called advanced techniques, there is no one whohas been trained to deal with such experiences. Inthe general milieu, the "We don't speak about ourexperiences" dogma has been interpreted as "Anyone who does is delusional and should be put down and shunned."To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-15 Thread Peter Sutphen




akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> on 6/15/05 5:35 PM, Peter Sutphen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> > > CC is "baby" awakening. Cessation of identification of consciousness with> > mind. End of "I" and "me".> > > Fine, but it¹s a significant milestone  one which people often seem to> reach when they¹ve been meditating for decades and allow themselvesto break> free of conditioned beliefs and judgments.Wow, now one only need to break free of free of conditioned beliefsand judgments? I did that 25 years ago when I left the TMO. Andregularly at other significant phased of my life. Little did I knowthat CC had dawned! This spiritual evolution stuff is getting easierand easier.
That Primordial Consciousness, Pure Shiva, is exactly who you are all the time. The "you" that is reading this at this very minute is Infinite Being. The whole thing is hilarious. You're looking for exactly what you are in this very moment. Just Be.To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/15/05 5:35 PM, Peter Sutphen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

CC is "baby" awakening. Cessation of identification of  consciousness with mind. End of "I" and "me". 

Fine, but it’s a significant milestone – one which people often seem to reach when they’ve been meditating for decades and allow themselves to break free of conditioned beliefs and judgments.

Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
on 6/15/05 3:51 PM, lupidus108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
>>> Of course, they didn't need to "leave the TMO" in order to develop,
>>> but apparently you like to believe this, so feel free...
>>> 
>> Not essential for everyone, but some get very bound up in concepts and
>> judgments, which holds them back.
> 
> For some, this is all that's needed to trigger awakening.
> 
> What is your definition of "awakening" ?

Same as yours, dude. Same as Maharishi's. C.C.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-15 Thread Peter Sutphen




His crack smoking and 'ho running.sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

snip
Which personal behavior of MMY's has jeapordized the TMO?To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

2005-06-15 Thread Peter Sutphen




CC is "baby" awakening. Cessation of identification of  consciousness with mind. End of "I" and "me". Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
on 6/15/05 3:51 PM, lupidus108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> >>> Of course, they didn't need to "leave the TMO" in order to develop,>>> but apparently you like to believe this, so feel free...>>> >> Not essential for everyone, but some get very bound up in concepts and>> judgments, which holds them back.> > For some, this is all that's needed to trigger awakening.> > What is your definition of "awakening" ?Same as yours, dude. Same as Maharishi's. C.C.To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/15/05 3:51 PM, lupidus108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
>>> Of course, they didn't need to "leave the TMO" in order to develop,
>>> but apparently you like to believe this, so feel free...
>>> 
>> Not essential for everyone, but some get very bound up in concepts and
>> judgments, which holds them back.
> 
> For some, this is all that's needed to trigger awakening.
> 
> What is your definition of "awakening" ?

Same as yours, dude. Same as Maharishi's. C.C.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/15/05 2:23 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> If it jeopardizes the company, you bet it gets dealt with somehow. If
> it
>> doesn't, the company goes down.
> 
> Which personal behavior of MMY's has jeapordized the TMO?

If I enumerated them you'd dismiss them as unfounded rumors and we'd be
going in circles, so let's drop it.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics

on 6/15/05 11:59 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> Somehow I missed this "course correction" idea earlier. It's a good
>> map to think about the folks who made big leaps in development after
>> leaving the TMO. (Yes, Peter I know... realization...)
>> 
> 
> Of course, they didn't need to "leave the TMO" in order to develop,
> but apparently you like to believe this, so feel free...
>
Not essential for everyone, but some get very bound up in concepts and
judgments, which holds them back. When the step away from the TMO, the
distance, plus new experiences, enables them to unravel those concepts and
judgments. For some, this is all that's needed to trigger awakening.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Lenz -- Sex and Business Practices / Ethics