Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[John Howell]

On the contrary, three of the terms mean a 
keyboard instrument as the single or one possible 
meaning.


John


At 5:58 PM -0700 10/7/06, Chuck Israels wrote:
Interesting that celeste is not listed, yet 
that's what I always hear in Magic Flute 
performances and recordings.  Seems OK to my 
ears.


Chuck


On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:42 PM, John Howell wrote:


I think it was--or at least the late 18th century equivalent.

I also suspect that the German "Glockenspiel" 
can actually refer to different instruments in 
translation.  It's possible that celesta is one 
of them, as well as the mallet-played orchestra 
bells.  What I grew up calling a Glockenspiel 
is more properly a Bell Lyra, which had to be 
played one-handed because the other hand had to 
support it in its sling, and that's the 
instrument that I'd guess was expected in 
turn-of-the-20th-century marches rather than 
the awkward-to-march-with flat set of orchestra 
bells.


OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to 
Percussion Terminology" by Russ Girsberger, and 
it's just as complicated as I thought it would 
be.


Glöckchen:  tubular bells; chimes
Glocke:  bell
Glocken:  chimes
Glockenartig:  like a bell; bell-like
Glockenplatten:  bell plates
Glockenspiel:  Keyboard percussion instrument 
with steel or aluminum bars.  In printed music, 
it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German 
military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in 
concert music.

Glockenspiel à clavier:  (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel
Glockenspiel mit tasten:  keyboard glockenspiel.

Whew!

John


At 4:12 PM -0700 10/7/06, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Was it a celesta?

Dean



At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a

keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern,
played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel.

DJW


Dean M. Estabrook
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Dean M. Estabrook]

This dialog serves to remind me of an experience I  had in my first  
year of teaching ... ca. 1966. Our high school had a very fine  
advanced band called a Wind Ensemble, which, in fact, had a minimum  
number of players per part, in general. Then there was a less  
advanced "Concert Band," with everyone else. In those days, the Wind  
Ensemble  concept was very popular and was synonymous with higher  
quality wind performances. Well, our Wind Ensemble was picked to play  
at the State MENC Conference that spring, so I wrote something for it  
and went to listen, still thinking that Wind Ensembles were at the  
top of the food chain. This perception remained in tact until I  
walked into a rehearsal of Clarence Sawhill's  (either USC or  
UCLA ... someone correct me) Symphonic Band.  It featured MANY  
players per part, and I swear the clarinet section(s) sounded just  
like the string section of a major symphony orchestra.  It's a sound  
which is still in my mind. We live and learn.


Dean

On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:28 PM, John Howell wrote:



Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference.


In theory there is.  Fennell's original conception of a wind  
ensemble was one player per part, but I don't know whether even he  
held to that for his clarinet section.  (I suspect there is someone  
here who can answer that.)  And of course the T.O. for most  
military bands (although not the ones in D.C.) has slots that are  
basically for one on a part, so Fennell's concept was not exactly a  
brand new one.


In practice (at the college level, at least), a wind ensemble is  
the band with the best players in it, on the small side, but not  
necessarily with only one on a part.

Dean M. Estabrook
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program?



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Chuck Israels]

Interesting that celeste is not listed, yet that's what I always hear  
in Magic Flute performances and recordings.  Seems OK to my ears.


Chuck


On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:42 PM, John Howell wrote:


I think it was--or at least the late 18th century equivalent.

I also suspect that the German "Glockenspiel" can actually refer to  
different instruments in translation.  It's possible that celesta  
is one of them, as well as the mallet-played orchestra bells.  What  
I grew up calling a Glockenspiel is more properly a Bell Lyra,  
which had to be played one-handed because the other hand had to  
support it in its sling, and that's the instrument that I'd guess  
was expected in turn-of-the-20th-century marches rather than the  
awkward-to-march-with flat set of orchestra bells.


OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion  
Terminology" by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I  
thought it would be.


Glöckchen:  tubular bells; chimes
Glocke:  bell
Glocken:  chimes
Glockenartig:  like a bell; bell-like
Glockenplatten:  bell plates
Glockenspiel:  Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or  
aluminum bars.  In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as  
used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in  
concert music.

Glockenspiel à clavier:  (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel
Glockenspiel mit tasten:  keyboard glockenspiel.

Whew!

John


At 4:12 PM -0700 10/7/06, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Was it a celesta?

Dean



At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte  
is a


keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern,
played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel.

DJW


Dean M. Estabrook
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program?




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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[John Howell]

I think it was--or at least the late 18th century equivalent.

I also suspect that the German "Glockenspiel" can 
actually refer to different instruments in 
translation.  It's possible that celesta is one 
of them, as well as the mallet-played orchestra 
bells.  What I grew up calling a Glockenspiel is 
more properly a Bell Lyra, which had to be played 
one-handed because the other hand had to support 
it in its sling, and that's the instrument that 
I'd guess was expected in 
turn-of-the-20th-century marches rather than the 
awkward-to-march-with flat set of orchestra bells.


OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to 
Percussion Terminology" by Russ Girsberger, and 
it's just as complicated as I thought it would be.


Glöckchen:  tubular bells; chimes
Glocke:  bell
Glocken:  chimes
Glockenartig:  like a bell; bell-like
Glockenplatten:  bell plates
Glockenspiel:  Keyboard percussion instrument 
with steel or aluminum bars.  In printed music, 
it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German 
military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in 
concert music.

Glockenspiel à clavier:  (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel
Glockenspiel mit tasten:  keyboard glockenspiel.

Whew!

John


At 4:12 PM -0700 10/7/06, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Was it a celesta?

Dean



At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a

keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern,
played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel.

DJW


Dean M. Estabrook
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program?




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Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[John Howell]

At 4:04 PM -0400 10/7/06, David W. Fenton wrote:

On 7 Oct 2006 at 13:40, Richard Smith wrote:


 Some really good music by some respected composers is being written
 for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that
 the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not
 orchestra.


Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference.


In theory there is.  Fennell's original conception of a wind ensemble 
was one player per part, but I don't know whether even he held to 
that for his clarinet section.  (I suspect there is someone here who 
can answer that.)  And of course the T.O. for most military bands 
(although not the ones in D.C.) has slots that are basically for one 
on a part, so Fennell's concept was not exactly a brand new one.


In practice (at the college level, at least), a wind ensemble is the 
band with the best players in it, on the small side, but not 
necessarily with only one on a part.  (For one thing, with college 
students one has to take into consideration the possibility of 
illness or injury, and if 6 players are out sick you'd have 6 parts 
not being covered.  Choral directors have to deal with the same 
practicalities, and since the weather around here started changing 
the singers have been dropping like flies!)


At this school the wind ensemble is as I've described above, has very 
fine players, and tackles serious musical challenges.  The (huge!) 
marching band breaks down after football season into a basketball pep 
band and a large Symphony Band for those who want to keep playing 
spring semester.  Neither one is actually too bad.


Then there is the question of whether a jazz ensemble is properly 
called a Jazz Orchestra or a Jazz Band, and the presence or absence 
of strings seems to have nothing to do with it!


This school is also blessed (?) with a SECOND marching band, the 
Corps of Cadets band, called the Highty Tighties.  (No, I don't know 
why, and neither does anyone else I've talked to, nor does anyone 
know why we're known athletically as the "Hokies"!)  The level of 
playing varies from year to year, because basically anyone who joins 
the Corps and plays a band instrument is assigned to the Band Company 
unless they are also in one of the Music Department ensembles.  They 
have a tradition reaching back into pre-history, and an influential 
cadre of alumni who kept them from being disbanded in the early '80s, 
while our Marching Virginians was only founded in about 1974 or so. 
But the Highty Tighties did something at about the turn of the 
millennium that I thoroughly approved of.  The University Pep Band 
has traditionally supported the men's basketball team, but not the 
women's.  When our women started getting good and attracting some 
notice, the Highty Tighties formed their own pep band to support the 
ladies, and I was most impressed that they would do so.


None of which speaks directly to your question, David, but does sort 
of underscore the true answer:  It Depends!


John


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Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Was it a celesta?

Dean




At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a

keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern,
played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel.

DJW


Dean M. Estabrook
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program?




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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[John T Sylvanis]

True, Richard Strauss used it in Don Juan.
John.

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 00:17:19 +0200 Daniel Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Eric Dannewitz wrote:
> > A Glockenspiel was used in Mozart's Die Zauberflote. 
> 
> At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a 
> 
> keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, 
> played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel.
> 
> DJW
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Richard Smith]

I seem to be having trouble with language. When I said instruments, I 
meant samples, not different samples of the same instrument. Sorry for 
being unclear.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com



Not at all. As I mentioned, in Garritan instruments, doubling the 
player variations (i.e. Flute Player 1 and Flute Player 2) gives 
authentic unisons and is not a waste of resources at all. David 
doesn't use Garritan instruments so the comments he made were not 
applicable to Garritan libraries.


Where you erred is when you suggested that multiple, hidden staves 
were necessary for doubling -- they are not. For doubled staves, you 
can simply load multiple instruments or player variations and assign 
them to the same channel.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY





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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Darcy James Argue]

On 07 Oct 2006, at 6:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:

You're right, of course. Doubling the same instrument is just a  
waste of resources. Egg on my face!


Not at all. As I mentioned, in Garritan instruments, doubling the  
player variations (i.e. Flute Player 1 and Flute Player 2) gives  
authentic unisons and is not a waste of resources at all. David  
doesn't use Garritan instruments so the comments he made were not  
applicable to Garritan libraries.


Where you erred is when you suggested that multiple, hidden staves  
were necessary for doubling -- they are not. For doubled staves, you  
can simply load multiple instruments or player variations and assign  
them to the same channel.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY





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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Richard Smith]

You're right, of course. Doubling the same instrument is just a waste of 
resources. Egg on my face!


I think, for my purposes, I would prefer a wind ensemble to a larger 
concert band set up because of the greater clarity (much like the real 
world).


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com



Surely not. Using the same patch for multiple staves does not sound 
anything like a the same number of actual players, each of which has 
an individual sound.


I guess a well-designed chorus controller would give some variety 
here, which is what chorus was designed for to begin with, but I'm 
not sure if it would be enough to capture the difference very well.


  



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Daniel Wolf]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:
A Glockenspiel was used in Mozart's Die Zauberflote. 


At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a 
keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, 
played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel.


DJW
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale vs. Sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

On 07 Oct 2006, at 1:47 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:On Oct 7, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Bob Shuster wrote:.  I'm also anxious to see when it will be completely compatible with the Intel Macs (I have a MacPro machine) - particularly for my Garritan GPO and JABB libraries - which are currently unusable.Good news, Bob - AFAIK, FinMac2007 is already completely native on Intel Macs - way to be ahead of the curve, MakeMusic! So you don't have to wait.Not quite -- Kontakt Player is not Universal yet, so if he wants to use GPO/JABB, he will have to run Finale under Rosetta. And as you might expect GPO/JABB performance under Rosetta is unusuably slow.Cheers,- Darcy-[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://secretsociety.typepad.comBrooklyn, NY___
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Darcy James Argue]

On 07 Oct 2006, at 4:56 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


Surely not. Using the same patch for multiple staves does not sound
anything like a the same number of actual players, each of which has
an individual sound.


Which is why all Garritan libraries include multiple "player  
variations" for each instrument (which can create convincing unisons  
because they do not have any samples in common), and often completely  
different sample sets using different players on different  
instruments as well.


I expect that Garritan Marching and Concert Band will include not  
only many more sample sets and player variations within each  
instrument family, it will also include samples for massed flutes,  
massed clarinets, etc (the same way GPO includes samples for massed  
violins, etc). I also expect the variety of percussion choices will  
be much more extensive than GPO percussion.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[David W. Fenton]

On 7 Oct 2006 at 15:48, Richard Smith wrote:
[quoting me, unattributed, again:]
> > But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound?
> > WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section
> > doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles.
> >
> > Or so I've always thought.
> 
> That's a good point. I suppose I think to much in live terms. Of
> course doubling could be accomplished by hidden, duplicate staves.

Surely not. Using the same patch for multiple staves does not sound 
anything like a the same number of actual players, each of which has 
an individual sound.

I guess a well-designed chorus controller would give some variety 
here, which is what chorus was designed for to begin with, but I'm 
not sure if it would be enough to capture the difference very well.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Richard Smith]

That's a good point. I suppose I think to much in live terms. Of course 
doubling could be accomplished by hidden, duplicate staves.


I think all I would want that's not in GPO is a good set of concert (not 
pop) saxophones, cornets and/or flugel horns, and euphonia that sound 
like euphonia rather than English baritones.


That, I guess, is more of a wind ensemble library than a band with lots 
of extra doubling.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com



But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound? 
WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section 
doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles.


Or so I've always thought.

  



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[David W. Fenton]

On 7 Oct 2006 at 15:20, Richard Smith wrote:
[quoting me:]
> > Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? 
> >
> > Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference.
> 
> The distinctions are not always clear. The wind ensemble's
> connection to the band should not be obscured but the the
> connection to older wind music is also important. 

But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound? 
WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section 
doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles.

Or so I've always thought.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Richard Smith]

The distinctions are not always clear. The wind ensemble's connection to 
the band should not be obscured but the the connection to older wind 
music is also important.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com




Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? 


Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference.

  



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[David W. Fenton]

On 7 Oct 2006 at 13:40, Richard Smith wrote:

> Some really good music by some respected composers is being written
> for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that
> the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not
> orchestra.

Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[David W. Fenton]

On 7 Oct 2006 at 4:27, dhbailey wrote:

> The saxes may 
> be missing because they weren't ready in time, they may be missing
> because Gary simply felt like it wasn't important to include them (why
> include glockenspiel, though?  That's a band instrument if ever I've
> seen one)

Well, perhaps because it's relatively easy to create a sample for it, 
as there's not much in the way of nuance to the envelope for the 
basic sample.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?

[John Howell]

At 11:14 PM -0400 10/6/06, John T Sylvanis wrote:

That may be, the point still remains: produce notation software that has
realistic rendition which then can be recorded to
media. CD or tape or whatever may come in the future, for a demo. This
will liberate the composer from his eternal dependence of the musicians
or conductors. Why should the incredible efforts of so many remain
forever anonymous because they either don't have the money to hire
musicians or connection to a willing conductor to play their work with an
orchestra? When I was a member of the conducting team at a world famous
orchestra, I could only see the piles of hand and painstakingly written
scores that were laying in a corner at the orchestra's library because
the orchestra simply did not have the physical time to fit them into the
season's programs.


I do not answer to challenge you, because your points are very well 
stated, but to ask what are really a few philosophical questions.


Why are you writing for orchestra, given (a) the difficulty of 
securing performances, and (b) the expense of producing demos good 
enough to sell your work.  Because in the past the orchestra has been 
considered the highest form of music making (although there are 
plenty of opera, choral, and chamber music enthusiasts who would take 
issue with that)?  Beethoven hired and paid his orchestra to play is 
music, as did Mozart for the last 10 years of his life.  And the 
operative words are "in the past."  Many orchestra's programming puts 
them in the "museum" category to some extent, making it chancy to 
present new music to your traditional audience.  There are segments 
of the market that DO need and want new music, the most obvious at 
this point in history being the band and wind ensemble world, but not 
downplaying choral organizations and educational and religious 
organizations.


Why are you writing for voices, when it is basically impossible to 
have a decent vocal sample or set of samples that can produce words?


Why, if you want not to be dependent on live musicians, are you still 
writing for them instead of going to one or more of the tape 
techniques (or their present-day descendants) which were developed 
precisely to do away with the vicissitudes of working with live 
musicians?


Why do you assume that those who remain anonymous don't deserve to 
remain so, when over the past very few years a good number of the 
composers on OrchestraList HAVE obtained not just premiers but repeat 
performances?  Salesmanship is part of promoting your work, and my 
guess is that conductors have as little time to listen to demos as 
they do to study new scores.  The OrchestraList composers I refer to 
do not start making their reputations with "world famous orchestras," 
but more often with fine regional and decent community orchestras. 
And there are an awful lot more of those than there are "world famous 
orchestras"!


And, just out of curiosity, what ever happened to the Kurzweil 
keyboards and their sampled libraries that were so highly touted 
about 10 years ago as the "perfect samples" for orchestral music, and 
that had some darned good demos of what could be done with their 
samples?


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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[Finale] finale 2007 install: use 2005 templates?

[shirling & neueweise]

am about to introduce myself to finale 2007 (hi, i'm jef... please 
behave and we can be friends) and wondering if there are any issues 
to be aware of in simply dropping my old default file (template), 
instrument and page sizes docs and preferences from 2005 into the 
appropriate places in the 2007 folder.   perhaps someone could point 
me to a date (approx) where this was discussed instead of it being 
hashed out all over again, and i can look it up in my digests 
(currently catching up on mid-august digests...)?


i realise there are things i will have to update, but i need to know 
if this approach is better, or if i should transfer settings with a 
PI, export 2005 libraries and import into 2007... etc.


cheers,
jef

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[John Howell]

At 7:53 PM -0700 10/6/06, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Then go edit Wikipedia. However, I doubt they will take your edit. 
You just said "standard additional instrument". It's not a standard 
instrument, but an additional instrument. Get it? Ok, really slow 
now.Standard...ADDITIONALinstrument.


So, yeah, they will ADD a saxophonist or two if needed, but they are 
not part of the core/traditional/standard orchestra.


Hi again, Eric.  Yes, of course I understand exactly what you mean, 
and you obviously understand exactly what I mean, even filtered 
through the sarcasm.  But my point is that "the orchestra" is an 
evolving concept and that there is no "standard" orchestra that 
covers everything from French Baroque opera to Mozart to late 
Beethoven to late Wagner to Stravinsky to Copland to John Williams. 
The "standard" instrumentation is an administrative convenience, and 
as such represents the instrumentation that is used most often. 
Haydn and Mahler had somewhat different ideas about what was 
"standard."  Instruments that aren't used in a particular composition 
are left out, and instruments not on the full time payroll are added 
as needed.  Do the orchestras you cite list a harpist?  Probably. 
Ah, but do they list TWO harpists?  Gotta have 'em for Berlioz.


So I guess I have no trouble with your saying the saxophone is not "a 
standard instrument," but I would have to continue to disagree if by 
that you actually mean that it is not "an orchestral instrument," 
which is how I read your original statement.  It is, in fact, a 
military band, concert band, jazz band, marching band, solo, chamber 
music, AND orchestral instrument.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 7, 2006, at 2:40 PM, Richard Smith wrote:

We've all heard that band but then we have heard an orchestra sound  
like that too. I challenge you to find that sound from the Dallas  
Wind Symphony, the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra, or any of the really  
fine university ensembles.


Some really good music by some respected composers is being written  
for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised  
that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for  
band, not orchestra. I know it was meant as a joke, but, having  
spent 30 years working with bands, I really would like to see old  
stereotypes and prejudices go away.




I'm an alumni of the Eastman Wind Ensemble (I'm actually on the album  
they made with Wynton Marsalis in 1988 that won the Grammy), so you  
are preaching to the converted.


I'm sad to say, though, that my band experiences since then have been  
lesser ones. The best way to get old stereotypes to go away is to  
stop being them, like most of the viola players I know who match or  
exceed the violinists in technique and musicality.



My question is what will GPO Wind Ensemble have in it that's not in  
GPO Orchestra. Saxophones and some expanded percussion? I would be  
content with a civilized classical sax sound. I think everything  
else I need is in GPO orchestra.


I suspect that the section numbers and balances will be different,  
for one thing, to compensate for the seating and staffing one is used  
to hearing in a wind band compared to an orchestra. Balance is one of  
the things I think could be better with GPO Orchestra, too.


Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Richard Smith]

We've all heard that band but then we have heard an orchestra sound like 
that too. I challenge you to find that sound from the Dallas Wind 
Symphony, the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra, or any of the really fine 
university ensembles.


Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for 
wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the 
best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not 
orchestra. I know it was meant as a joke, but, having spent 30 years 
working with bands, I really would like to see old stereotypes and 
prejudices go away.


My question is what will GPO Wind Ensemble have in it that's not in GPO 
Orchestra. Saxophones and some expanded percussion? I would be content 
with a civilized classical sax sound. I think everything else I need is 
in GPO orchestra.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  


Christopher Smith wrote:


On Oct 7, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.


Wow! Really? I suppose you have an inside line on this?

Christopher

(It shouldn't be TOO good, or it will lose the realism. Squeaky 
clarinets, honky oboes (or else an out of tune muted trumpet), a 
completely overpopulated but still inadequate flute section, trumpets 
that crack every second note, horns that crack EVERY note, justifiably 
timid trombones, saxes that overrun the rest of the woodwind section 
etc., are part of the wind ensemble experience! And maybe the expanded 
Human Playback in Finale could take advantage of the new sound set and 
have the percussionists miss every second entrance and enter a 16th 
note early or 16th note late alternatively when they do come in. I can 
see it now: the Charles Ives' Country Band plugin!)


8-)=)   (BIG grin!)


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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Alright!  Since most of my instrumental writing is for Wind  
Ensemble,  this would be great... yeah, I wonder what it will cost.


Dean

On Oct 7, 2006, at 9:27 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:


Very cool. I'll have to start saving up for this ;-)

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY






Dean M. Estabrook
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program?



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[John T Sylvanis]

So is choirs, solo voices and mandolins, at least it's what Gary told me.

John.

On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 11:10:54 -0400 Darcy James Argue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.
> 
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://secretsociety.typepad.com
> Brooklyn, NY
> 
> 
> 
> On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:01 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
> 
> > Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. 
> It's  
> > not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what  
> 
> > GPO was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan  
> > Personal Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra?
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> 
 
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale vs. Sibelius

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 7, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Bob Shuster wrote:.  I'm also anxious to see when it will be completely compatible with the Intel Macs (I have a MacPro machine) - particularly for my Garritan GPO and JABB libraries - which are currently unusable.Good news, Bob - AFAIK, FinMac2007 is already completely native on Intel Macs - way to be ahead of the curve, MakeMusic! So you don't have to wait.Unfortunately, I don't take advantage of that... YET!Christopher___
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale vs. Sibelius

[Eric Dannewitz]

Speaking as an owner of a Intel iMac Core 2 Duo, Finale 2007 FLIES on 
it..and hopefully Intel versions will be forthcoming from Native 
Instruments to update GPO and stuff..


Bob Shuster wrote:
I want to thank everyone who offered advice and some great links to 
help me decide between switching to Sibelius or updating to Finale 
2007 (from Finale 98.)  I did take your advice, reading all the 
materials I could online and spending some time with each app. 

I first spent a full six hours with Sibelius.  At first look it does 
seem much more polished and easier to use, but after a while it became 
clear it was much more consumer and music educator oriented than 
professional copyist oriented (not that this is a bad thing - but it 
does not fit my application of the product.)  I then spent an equal 
amount of time with Finale 2007 - and while on the surface it does not 
seem much different than the version I was used to, it seemed much 
more comfortable and familiar - due in no small part to my years of 
use of the product (I go back to at least Finale 2.x - what year would 
that have been?!?)  I had done *tons* of tweaks to my default Finale 
files over the years, and I'm not sure I can make the same tweaks to 
Sibelius, or at least not as easily (for me anyway.)


So what it came down to for me was: with which product can I most 
quickly get back up to speed and turn out copy that meets or exceeds 
my former output.  Finale won hands down - my update arrives on 
Monday.  I'm sure I'll discover a lot of the new "under the hood" 
enhancements that have been made - and I will definitely have to start 
my tweaking from scratch again.  I'm also anxious to see when it will 
be completely compatible with the Intel Macs (I have a MacPro machine) 
- particularly for my Garritan GPO and JABB libraries - which are 
currently unusable.


FYI - cheap plug - I also ordered the most recent Finale 3rd party 
book I could find - Finale: An Easy Guide to Music Notation - by Vince 
Leonard (an active list member) and Tom Rudolph (a good friend of 
mine!)  Check it out.  :)


- Bob Shuster


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[Finale] Re: Finale vs. Sibelius

[Bob Shuster]

I want to thank everyone who offered advice and some great links to help me decide between switching to Sibelius or updating to Finale 2007 (from Finale 98.)  I did take your advice, reading all the materials I could online and spending some time with each app. I first spent a full six hours with Sibelius.  At first look it does seem much more polished and easier to use, but after a while it became clear it was much more consumer and music educator oriented than professional copyist oriented (not that this is a bad thing - but it does not fit my application of the product.)  I then spent an equal amount of time with Finale 2007 - and while on the surface it does not seem much different than the version I was used to, it seemed much more comfortable and familiar - due in no small part to my years of use of the product (I go back to at least Finale 2.x - what year would that have been?!?)  I had done *tons* of tweaks to my default Finale files over the years, and I'm not sure I can make the same tweaks to Sibelius, or at least not as easily (for me anyway.)So what it came down to for me was: with which product can I most quickly get back up to speed and turn out copy that meets or exceeds my former output.  Finale won hands down - my update arrives on Monday.  I'm sure I'll discover a lot of the new "under the hood" enhancements that have been made - and I will definitely have to start my tweaking from scratch again.  I'm also anxious to see when it will be completely compatible with the Intel Macs (I have a MacPro machine) - particularly for my Garritan GPO and JABB libraries - which are currently unusable.FYI - cheap plug - I also ordered the most recent Finale 3rd party book I could find - Finale: An Easy Guide to Music Notation - by Vince Leonard (an active list member) and Tom Rudolph (a good friend of mine!)  Check it out.  :)- Bob Shuster___
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Eric Dannewitz]

Very cool. I'll have to start saving up for this ;-)

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:01 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's 
not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what GPO 
was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan Personal 
Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra?


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RE: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Williams, Jim]

 

(It shouldn't be TOO good, or it will lose the realism. Squeaky 
clarinets, honky oboes (or else an out of tune muted trumpet), a 
completely overpopulated but still inadequate flute section, trumpets 
that crack every second note, horns that crack EVERY note, 
justifiably timid trombones, saxes that overrun the rest of the 
woodwind section etc., are part of the wind ensemble experience! And 
maybe the expanded Human Playback in Finale could take advantage of 
the new sound set and have the percussionists miss every second 
entrance and enter a 16th note early or 16th note late alternatively 
when they do come in. I can see it now: the Charles Ives' Country 
Band plugin!)

All-too-human playback
 

(It shouldn't be TOO good, or it will lose the realism. Squeaky 
clarinets, honky oboes (or else an out of tune muted trumpet), a 
completely overpopulated but still inadequate flute section, trumpets 
that crack every second note, horns that crack EVERY note, 
justifiably timid trombones, saxes that overrun the rest of the 
woodwind section etc., are part of the wind ensemble experience! And 
maybe the expanded Human Playback in Finale could take advantage of 
the new sound set and have the percussionists miss every second 
entrance and enter a 16th note early or 16th note late alternatively 
when they do come in. I can see it now: the Charles Ives' Country 
Band plugin!)

All-too-human playback
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Darcy James Argue]

On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:24 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:



On Oct 7, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.


Wow! Really? I suppose you have an inside line on this?


If by "inside line" you mean http://www.garritan.com:


Announcing: Garritan MARCHING BAND Library
The Industry's First Marching and Concert Band Library
Featuring Trumpets, Trombones, Marching winds, Euponiums,  
Baritones, Saxophones, Sousaphone, Marching percussion. Create  
Realistic-Sounding Marching Band, Concert Band, Wind Ensemble and  
other Band Arrangements Quickly and Easily. Build Your Own Bands  
with Ensemble Building. Expected Fall of 2006.

Coming Soon!



- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 7, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.


Wow! Really? I suppose you have an inside line on this?

Christopher

(It shouldn't be TOO good, or it will lose the realism. Squeaky  
clarinets, honky oboes (or else an out of tune muted trumpet), a  
completely overpopulated but still inadequate flute section, trumpets  
that crack every second note, horns that crack EVERY note,  
justifiably timid trombones, saxes that overrun the rest of the  
woodwind section etc., are part of the wind ensemble experience! And  
maybe the expanded Human Playback in Finale could take advantage of  
the new sound set and have the percussionists miss every second  
entrance and enter a 16th note early or 16th note late alternatively  
when they do come in. I can see it now: the Charles Ives' Country  
Band plugin!)


8-)=)   (BIG grin!)


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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Darcy James Argue]

Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:01 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's  
not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what  
GPO was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan  
Personal Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra?


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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Eric Dannewitz]

A Glockenspiel was used in Mozart's Die Zauberflote. But I'm sure Mozart 
was looking forward and knew it would be just a BAND instrument. Last 
time I saw the San Francisco Symphony they had a Harp but no saxophones. 
Funny...according to you they use them..not! One of the ladies I 
play with in a local symphony has a son in the National Symphony 
Orchestra, and they, once in a blue moon, will have saxophones for a 
piece. More of a band piece than an Orchestra piece. But what does he 
know. He's only been in the Orchestra for, oh, almost 20 years


But yeah, you seem to know everything. Yeah.mmhmm...

Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's not 
a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what GPO was 
aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan Personal Band 
instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra?


dhbailey wrote:
Do you mean to tell me that every instrument included in GPO is a 
regular member of a standard orchestra?  I don't think so.


Most orchestras do no have a regular contrabassoon player, a regular 
english horn player, a bass clarinet player, tuba player, harpsichord, 
marimba, glockenspiel (oh yeah, baby, that's in all those Mozart and 
Haydn and Beethoven symphonies!), to say nothing about harp -- every 
orchestra uses at least one of those at every concert -- Not!


There are lots of instruments in GPO which are either doubled 
occasionally (such as english horn or contrabassoon or bass clarinet, 
which is the same as happens with saxophone (I have a friend who plays 
clarinet predominantly who doubles on saxophone when it's called for 
or for which orchestras maintain lists of first call players to hire 
as additional members when the score calls for it, such as tuba, 
harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel, harp.


Your logic falls apart -- the exclusion of saxophones isn't for the 
reason that they're not regular members of an orchestra, not if all 
those other instruments I've listed are included in GPO.  The saxes 
may be missing because they weren't ready in time, they may be missing 
because Gary simply felt like it wasn't important to include them (why 
include glockenspiel, though?  That's a band instrument if ever I've 
seen one), but the fact is that they are missing and anybody who 
wishes to score a work which uses strings AND saxophones and who 
wishes to use GPO (either the Finale edition or the full version) has 
to buy two separate products.


And that is a fact whether Gary Garritan is a wonderful person (I have 
no reason to doubt Chuck's assessment) or is a toad (I have no reason 
to think this).




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Re: [Finale] Re: OT bekakte

[Barbara Touburg]

O, that is something entirely different then!

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

At 11:43 PM 10/6/06 +0200, Barbara Touburg wrote:

Suddeny I see a Dutch word. What does bekakte mean in English? In Dutch 
to bekakt means pretending to be chique and insisting on displaying it.



I'm sure you'll be swamped with replies. verkakte, vekakte, farkakte, 
fakakta, fekokteh, farcockteh, all different spellings.

Nicely defined here:
http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/dictionary/display.php?action=search&type=rom&word=farkakte
"Screwed up" is the polite translation.

Dennis



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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[Darcy James Argue]

On 07 Oct 2006, at 4:27 AM, dhbailey wrote:

Do you mean to tell me that every instrument included in GPO is a  
regular member of a standard orchestra?  I don't think so.


I'm not sure how that's relevant. You're saying you want GPO to  
include fewer instruments?


Most orchestras do no have a regular contrabassoon player, a  
regular english horn player, a bass clarinet player, tuba player,  
harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel (oh yeah, baby, that's in all  
those Mozart and Haydn and Beethoven symphonies!), to say nothing  
about harp -- every orchestra uses at least one of those at every  
concert -- Not!


I'm afraid you're extremely mistaken.

Contrabassoon, English horn, bass clarinet, tuba, harpsichord, mallet  
percussion (certainly including marimba, glock, and vibes), and harp  
players are -- obviously -- salaried positions at every major  
orchestra. Sometimes as doublers (i.e., associate bassoon doubling  
contra, associate clarinet doubling b.cl., etc), but these are *all*  
salaried orchestral players.


Saxophonists are generally not salaried players. Saxophone parts are  
most often covered by freelancers. Occasionally, if there's just one  
saxophone, the associate clarinetist will cover it, but very few (if  
any?) major orchestras have a salaried saxophone section.


 (why include glockenspiel, though?  That's a band instrument if  
ever I've seen one)


You have got to be kidding me. There are any number of orchestral  
warhorses, programmed by virtually every orchestra every season, that  
require glock. Don't make me list them.


Any sample library must draw the line somewhere. If GPO included  
saxophones, someone else would be whining about the lack of Wagner  
tubas, celeste, and Ondes Martenot. It was entirely reasonable for  
GPO to draw the line at saxophones -- especially considering that  
when it was first released, it offered vastly more bang-for-buck than  
any other sample library available, to the point where everyone else  
now has to compete with Gary on price, and we are all the better for  
it. Complaining that you must buy two amazingly inexpensive sample  
libraries to get an instrument set that's *more* extensive than  
libraries costing over ten times as much as GPO and JABB put together  
is... well... words fail me.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



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Re: [Finale] Re: OT bekakte

[Dennis W. Manasco]

At 6:19 PM -0400 10/6/06, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


...
Nicely defined here:

...



Oops...

After a quick scan of subject lines I was ready to opine about Bakelite...

Never mind...

But thanks for the link.

Now I can get my goy* mind around all the Yiddish slang in the F. 
Paul Wilson "Repairman Jack" novels and Paul Levine's "Solomon vs. 
Lord" stuff (and maybe the "Lassiter" books, but I haven't gotten to 
them yet).



Thanks again and best wishes,

-=-Dennis



* I can't say I'm too happy that golem is apparently a variation of 
goylem ("dummy, an artificial human"), and that goylem is obviously 
derived from goy (as is meshugener).


Ouch!

I'd feel better about that if I was eight feet tall and made of 
hard-fired clay... ;-)


Though, if I read both  and 
 
right, the original golem was about half-again as long as a cigarette.


Huh??











































.
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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[dhbailey]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Then go edit Wikipedia. However, I doubt they will take your edit. You 
just said "standard additional instrument". It's not a standard 
instrument, but an additional instrument. Get it? Ok, really slow 
now.Standard...ADDITIONALinstrument.




And say just as slowly: so is tuba, so is harp, so is 
glockenspiel/marimba -- so your logic about why saxes are left out of 
GPO falls apart, since it has these other ADDITIONAL instruments.


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David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?

[dhbailey]

Williams, Jim wrote:
 




Well, just a day or two ago, somebody claimed Finale did *not*
include a sequencer. But it obviously does.


 


Sequencing : Finale = Notation: Band in a Box or Sonar.



That's my point -- no product does both sequencing and notation well, 
and I can't believe it's because they're blind to the possibilities.  I 
have to think that there's a more relevant financial reason. 
Applications of both types have learned that there isn't much money to 
be made from making anything other than a cursory bow to the other sort 
of application.


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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[dhbailey]

Chuck Israels wrote:


On Oct 6, 2006, at 1:11 PM, dhbailey wrote:


Steve Schow wrote:

Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe
your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that
deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money
from you later.  Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the
nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for



He is probably a very nice person, and I would not characterize him as 
having left the saxophone out on purpose to force anybody to buy more 
product from him.


But regardless of the reason, that is the result.

Or is he planning on including the saxophones in GPO-II or something?

I'm still awaiting word on the release of the Garritan General Midi 
soundset, something which has been listed on the Finale web-site but 
mentioned very little elsewhere.  That will include saxes and strings, 
as well as all the basic General Midi sounds, but of course won't have 
nearly the depth of nuances that GPO has.


I don't know when it's coming, but the last time I saw Gary, he 
mentioned that this was in the works and implied that it was an 
important addition to his business.


Chuck



With his high standards for sample quality, I'm waiting, waiting, 
waiting for it because I know it'll be great -- in all my grousing about 
GPO not including saxes, I have never once complained about the quality 
of the samples.


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Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]

[dhbailey]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Yes, and I'm sure every orchestra maintains lists for first call 
Accordian players, and other instruments NOT regularly in the Orchestra.


You reinforced my point. Saxophone is not a regular part of an 
Orchestra. Wind Ensemble/Orchestra, yes, but a traditional Orchestra, no.


dhbailey wrote:
Except when they're programming works which call for saxophone, and 
then you can be there's saxophones in the London Symphony Orchestra.  
Every orchestra maintains lists of first-call players for instruments 
which they choose not to maintain a regular seat for.


David H. Bailey


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Do you mean to tell me that every instrument included in GPO is a 
regular member of a standard orchestra?  I don't think so.


Most orchestras do no have a regular contrabassoon player, a regular 
english horn player, a bass clarinet player, tuba player, harpsichord, 
marimba, glockenspiel (oh yeah, baby, that's in all those Mozart and 
Haydn and Beethoven symphonies!), to say nothing about harp -- every 
orchestra uses at least one of those at every concert -- Not!


There are lots of instruments in GPO which are either doubled 
occasionally (such as english horn or contrabassoon or bass clarinet, 
which is the same as happens with saxophone (I have a friend who plays 
clarinet predominantly who doubles on saxophone when it's called for or 
for which orchestras maintain lists of first call players to hire as 
additional members when the score calls for it, such as tuba, 
harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel, harp.


Your logic falls apart -- the exclusion of saxophones isn't for the 
reason that they're not regular members of an orchestra, not if all 
those other instruments I've listed are included in GPO.  The saxes may 
be missing because they weren't ready in time, they may be missing 
because Gary simply felt like it wasn't important to include them (why 
include glockenspiel, though?  That's a band instrument if ever I've 
seen one), but the fact is that they are missing and anybody who wishes 
to score a work which uses strings AND saxophones and who wishes to use 
GPO (either the Finale edition or the full version) has to buy two 
separate products.


And that is a fact whether Gary Garritan is a wonderful person (I have 
no reason to doubt Chuck's assessment) or is a toad (I have no reason to 
think this).


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David H. Bailey
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