Re: [Finale] Split measure questions

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 10.10.2007 Darcy James Argue wrote:

I assume you would hide the left "barline" for the new system in this case 
(it's a work for piano), but what about clef, key signature and time signature -- do I 
show or do I hide?


When I have done this, I have not hidden a left barline (unless it was a 
single staff, when I don't show them anyway), and shown everything else 
normally, except the measure number, which I would show on the first 
full measure.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] test

[dhbailey]

Ray Horton wrote:
Since I got my computer running again, I'm not getting much mail on the 
three lists with which I keep up.  Has mail here been particularly light?





Yeah -- sometimes no news is good news, but in Finale2008's case, no 
news (as in "no interim big-fix release") is bad news.


And we're tired of discussing bad news relative to Fin2k8.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Split measure questions

[A-NO-NE Music]

Darcy James Argue / 07.10.10 / 1:34 AM wrote:

>Pardon my ignorance, but I've never had to do this before -- when it  
>is necessary to split a single measure across two systems (because  
>the composer added too damn many notes to fit into a single system),  
>what elements do you show on the the second half of the measure --  
>the one starting a new system? I assume you would hide the left  
>"barline" for the new system in this case (it's a work for piano),  
>but what about clef, key signature and time signature -- do I show or  
>do I hide?

Since you mentioned time signature, I assume this measure has the time
signature, then I will remove everything to be clear this is still the
part of the previous measure.  On the other hand, when I had to do this
for John Zone, I simply reduced the staff size to make the measure fit. 
I also have done with bigger page for that page because it was only one
measure thing.  I used 11/17 and fold it in half.  Basically I don't
like splitting measure.

When time signature is not involved, I simply use dotted bar line at the
beginning.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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[Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Daniel Wolf]

I've just reviewed most of the posts dealing with Finale '08, and -- 
following what appears to be a consensus around here -- have decided to 
stick with '07 until notice of further improvements in known bugs.


I also took a look at some press statements on the MakeMusic site 
announcing quarterly results. Two aspects of those statements are 
striking: continued losses, and the importance of notation programs 
(relative to other products) in the income stream of the company.  
Clearly, this is a company that cannot take a publicity hit with its 
prestige notation product.


From my own informal count on this list, at least twenty established, 
long-term, professional users have indicated that they are not switching 
to '08; most of them indicate that bug fixing is their main concern, 
several of indicated a move to a competing product. 

Perhaps it would be useful to document the number of such users more 
precisely and use it as a form of leverage to encourage MakeMusic to 
concentrate on improving the product's present functionality before 
adding other features. I believe that most of us here would really 
prefer to be loyal Finale users, but the benefits of Finale appear for 
many of us to have been outweighed by the disadvantages.


Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more 
accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, professional 
users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug fixes, and (c) iare 
either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing product 
during this cycle?


Daniel Wolf





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[Finale] Re: Split measure questions

[Hamilton Greg]

Hey Darcy,

You can have an invisible or dotted right barline on the preceding  
system, then just the usual clefs and key signatures on the  
continuing system. No need to hide the left barline on the that next  
system. I double checked a few of my Henle piano scores to confirm this.


Hope it helps,
Greg

Greg Hamilton Music Service
2980 Corona Drive
Burnaby, BC  V3J 1B8
Tel: 604.444.9218
http://www.greghamiltonmusic.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





Hey all,

Pardon my ignorance, but I've never had to do this before -- when  
it is necessary to split a single measure across two systems  
(because the composer added too damn many notes to fit into a  
single system), what elements do you show on the the second half of  
the measure -- the one starting a new system? I assume you would  
hide the left "barline" for the new system in this case (it's a  
work for piano), but what about clef, key signature and time  
signature -- do I show or do I hide?


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 10.10.2007 Daniel Wolf wrote:

Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more accurate 
sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, professional users of 
Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug fixes, and (c) iare either skipping 
an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing product during this cycle?


I believe I do qualify for a, although I don't use every aspect of the 
Finale package.


I have had serious concerns about bug fixes for a long time.
And, although I haven't decided to not buy Finale 2k8 (I may have to for 
compatibility reasons), I will not buy it yet.


I do have serious concerns about the future of Finale in general. My 
being thrown out of the beta team is one of the reasons, as I can only 
guess about the reasons for that. And for some reason I have the feeling 
it has to do with some company policies on bug fixing.


We have witnessed many software packages die because they came second. 
My feeling is that Finale is loosing the battle right now. All Sibelius 
now need is a real plugin interface and some serious third party plugins.


The reason Finale is loosing the battle is bugs. 2k7 was a catch up 
version, but Sibelius has not been asleep. Had Fin2k8b been a bug fix 
version, all would have been well. But now I feel it is probably too late.


Johannes

http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 10, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:



I have had serious concerns about bug fixes for a long time.
And, although I haven't decided to not buy Finale 2k8 (I may have  
to for compatibility reasons), I will not buy it yet.


I do have serious concerns about the future of Finale in general.  
My being thrown out of the beta team is one of the reasons, as I  
can only guess about the reasons for that. And for some reason I  
have the feeling it has to do with some company policies on bug  
fixing.



What did they say to you when they informed you that you would not be  
beta testing any more? Did they give any reason at all? Were you  
friendly with anyone at MakeMusic that might give you a clue? Was it  
because you are vocal on the list here, and they didn't want you to  
have deep prior information about new versions that you might end up  
talking about?


I have so little knowledge about the workings of a software company  
that I would really like to have a better understanding of this, even  
political issues. And your guesses would be much better informed than  
mine.


Christopher


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[Finale] Re: test

[Jonathan Smith]

Since I got my computer running again, I'm not getting much mail on  
the three lists with which I keep up.  Has mail here been  
particularly light?


Everybody’s migrated to 
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Re: [Finale] Re: Split measure questions

[Darcy James Argue]

Hey Greg,

Thanks! All good to know.

CHeers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 10 Oct 2007, at 1:19 PM, Hamilton Greg wrote:


Hey Darcy,

You can have an invisible or dotted right barline on the preceding  
system, then just the usual clefs and key signatures on the  
continuing system. No need to hide the left barline on the that  
next system. I double checked a few of my Henle piano scores to  
confirm this.


Hope it helps,
Greg

Greg Hamilton Music Service
2980 Corona Drive
Burnaby, BC  V3J 1B8
Tel: 604.444.9218
http://www.greghamiltonmusic.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Hey all,

Pardon my ignorance, but I've never had to do this before -- when  
it is necessary to split a single measure across two systems  
(because the composer added too damn many notes to fit into a  
single system), what elements do you show on the the second half  
of the measure -- the one starting a new system? I assume you  
would hide the left "barline" for the new system in this case  
(it's a work for piano), but what about clef, key signature and  
time signature -- do I show or do I hide?


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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RE: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Lee Actor]

> I've just reviewed most of the posts dealing with Finale '08, and --
> following what appears to be a consensus around here -- have decided to
> stick with '07 until notice of further improvements in known bugs.
>
> I also took a look at some press statements on the MakeMusic site
> announcing quarterly results. Two aspects of those statements are
> striking: continued losses, and the importance of notation programs
> (relative to other products) in the income stream of the company.
> Clearly, this is a company that cannot take a publicity hit with its
> prestige notation product.
>
>  From my own informal count on this list, at least twenty established,
> long-term, professional users have indicated that they are not switching
> to '08; most of them indicate that bug fixing is their main concern,
> several of indicated a move to a competing product.
>
> Perhaps it would be useful to document the number of such users more
> precisely and use it as a form of leverage to encourage MakeMusic to
> concentrate on improving the product's present functionality before
> adding other features. I believe that most of us here would really
> prefer to be loyal Finale users, but the benefits of Finale appear for
> many of us to have been outweighed by the disadvantages.
>
> Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more
> accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, professional
> users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug fixes, and (c) iare
> either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing product
> during this cycle?
>
> Daniel Wolf
>

I'm a long-term, professional Finale user who used to upgrade regularly, but
I've been stuck on Finale 2004a for the past few years.  The reason is that
Finale 2004b introduced an accidental positioning bug (under certain
conditions having to do with hidden layers) that was not serious and easy
enough to work around, but would have caused me to scour all my previous
scores to find the specific cases that needed adjustment.  I stubbornly
decided not to upgrade until they fixed this bug.  I believe it was finally
fixed in Finale 2007, but by then so many more new bugs had been introduced
that I'll wait for a stable, relatively bug-free version to upgrade again.
I would only consider moving to Sibelius if 1) Sibelius comes to equal or
exceed Finale in flexibility, or 2) MM enters a death spiral as a company.

Lee Actor
Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
http://www.leeactor.com




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Re: [Finale] Re: Split measure questions

[Darcy James Argue]

I'm required to use Fin2k6 for this project.

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 10 Oct 2007, at 3:22 PM, Fiskum, Steve wrote:


FYI: The Split Measure plug-in works well for these situations.

Steve


10/10/07 1:38 PM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hey Greg,

Thanks! All good to know.

CHeers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 10 Oct 2007, at 1:19 PM, Hamilton Greg wrote:


Hey Darcy,

You can have an invisible or dotted right barline on the preceding
system, then just the usual clefs and key signatures on the
continuing system. No need to hide the left barline on the that
next system. I double checked a few of my Henle piano scores to
confirm this.

Hope it helps,
Greg

Greg Hamilton Music Service
2980 Corona Drive
Burnaby, BC  V3J 1B8
Tel: 604.444.9218
http://www.greghamiltonmusic.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Hey all,

Pardon my ignorance, but I've never had to do this before -- when
it is necessary to split a single measure across two systems
(because the composer added too damn many notes to fit into a
single system), what elements do you show on the the second half
of the measure -- the one starting a new system? I assume you
would hide the left "barline" for the new system in this case
(it's a work for piano), but what about clef, key signature and
time signature -- do I show or do I hide?

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[dennis]

Daniel Wolf:
> From my own informal count on this list, at least twenty established,
> long-term, professional users have indicated that they are not switching
> to '08; most of them indicate that bug fixing is their main concern,
> several of indicated a move to a competing product.

I'm not sure we're noticed here, and that our online forms actually get to
people who notice our concerns.

So yesterday I mailed a real, genuine, postal letter on my very best
Southworth watermarked 100% cotton business paper to the COO of MakeMusic
outlining my concerns, explaining that I am a long-term customer (15
years), and this time I am not buying the Finale upgrade and instead
purchasing a Sibelius crossgrade.

I explained that I was one among many professionals who are taking a "year
off" from Finale, asking for for a bugfix version, objecting to what
amounted to a yearly subscription model instead of bugfix patches, and
asking for a Finale employee to participate actively in this list.

Dennis


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Re: [Finale] Re: Split measure questions

[Fiskum, Steve]

It was introduced in 2006 in the plug-ins' submenu "New Plug-ins for Finale
2006."

Steve


10/10/07 2:33 PM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm required to use Fin2k6 for this project.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
> 
> 
> 
> On 10 Oct 2007, at 3:22 PM, Fiskum, Steve wrote:
> 
>> FYI: The Split Measure plug-in works well for these situations.
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> 
>> 10/10/07 1:38 PM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey Greg,
>>> 
>>> Thanks! All good to know.
>>> 
>>> CHeers,
>>> 
>>> - Darcy
>>> -
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Brooklyn, NY
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2007, at 1:19 PM, Hamilton Greg wrote:
>>> 
 Hey Darcy,
 
 You can have an invisible or dotted right barline on the preceding
 system, then just the usual clefs and key signatures on the
 continuing system. No need to hide the left barline on the that
 next system. I double checked a few of my Henle piano scores to
 confirm this.
 
 Hope it helps,
 Greg
 
 Greg Hamilton Music Service
 2980 Corona Drive
 Burnaby, BC  V3J 1B8
 Tel: 604.444.9218
 http://www.greghamiltonmusic.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but I've never had to do this before -- when
> it is necessary to split a single measure across two systems
> (because the composer added too damn many notes to fit into a
> single system), what elements do you show on the the second half
> of the measure -- the one starting a new system? I assume you
> would hide the left "barline" for the new system in this case
> (it's a work for piano), but what about clef, key signature and
> time signature -- do I show or do I hide?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
 
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Lora Crighton]

--- Daniel Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Would it be possible now, from the list membership,
> to get a more 
> accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a
> long-term, professional 
> users of Finale,

Long-term, non-professional - current grad student in
musicology, former choir librarian.

> (b) have serious concerns about bug
> fixes, and

Yes!

> (c) are 
> either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a
> competing product 
> during this cycle?
> 

Sticking with '06 - I was upgrading every other year,
but have decided to skip '08.

Although I'm not thinking of switching at the moment,
I no longer sales-pitch Finale like I used to.


-- 
Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti
So far tranquillo ogni turbato core,
Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore
Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti.
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Re: [Finale] Re: Split measure questions

[Fiskum, Steve]

FYI: The Split Measure plug-in works well for these situations.

Steve


10/10/07 1:38 PM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey Greg,
> 
> Thanks! All good to know.
> 
> CHeers,
> 
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
> 
> 
> 
> On 10 Oct 2007, at 1:19 PM, Hamilton Greg wrote:
> 
>> Hey Darcy,
>> 
>> You can have an invisible or dotted right barline on the preceding
>> system, then just the usual clefs and key signatures on the
>> continuing system. No need to hide the left barline on the that
>> next system. I double checked a few of my Henle piano scores to
>> confirm this.
>> 
>> Hope it helps,
>> Greg
>> 
>> Greg Hamilton Music Service
>> 2980 Corona Drive
>> Burnaby, BC  V3J 1B8
>> Tel: 604.444.9218
>> http://www.greghamiltonmusic.com
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>> 
>>> Pardon my ignorance, but I've never had to do this before -- when
>>> it is necessary to split a single measure across two systems
>>> (because the composer added too damn many notes to fit into a
>>> single system), what elements do you show on the the second half
>>> of the measure -- the one starting a new system? I assume you
>>> would hide the left "barline" for the new system in this case
>>> (it's a work for piano), but what about clef, key signature and
>>> time signature -- do I show or do I hide?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> - Darcy
>>> -
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Brooklyn, NY
>> 
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Jack Ellis]

I'm a long time user, but not for publishing. I use finale to compose and 
arrange for singing groups, including instrument accompaniments which I put on 
a sequencer. I upgrade when it looks like an improvement will help me, usually 
about every two years. I also monitor the list for others' experience before 
upgrading. I'm still using Finale 2006. Looks like I may be using it for a 
while.

Jack Ellis

BTW: Those with long memories will remember Linda Cummings who was active on 
the list several years ago. I'm her father and she got me started with Finale 
3.0 for Windows.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Wolf 
  To: finale@shsu.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:40 AM
  Subject: [Finale] Re: Finale '08


  I've just reviewed most of the posts dealing with Finale '08, and -- 
  following what appears to be a consensus around here -- have decided to 
  stick with '07 until notice of further improvements in known bugs.

  I also took a look at some press statements on the MakeMusic site 
  announcing quarterly results. Two aspects of those statements are 
  striking: continued losses, and the importance of notation programs 
  (relative to other products) in the income stream of the company.  
  Clearly, this is a company that cannot take a publicity hit with its 
  prestige notation product.

   From my own informal count on this list, at least twenty established, 
  long-term, professional users have indicated that they are not switching 
  to '08; most of them indicate that bug fixing is their main concern, 
  several of indicated a move to a competing product. 

  Perhaps it would be useful to document the number of such users more 
  precisely and use it as a form of leverage to encourage MakeMusic to 
  concentrate on improving the product's present functionality before 
  adding other features. I believe that most of us here would really 
  prefer to be loyal Finale users, but the benefits of Finale appear for 
  many of us to have been outweighed by the disadvantages.

  Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more 
  accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, professional 
  users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug fixes, and (c) iare 
  either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing product 
  during this cycle?

  Daniel Wolf





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[Finale] Finale

[Marvin Rosenthal]

I've been a long time (since 2000) user and have remained on version 2006 
because of all the problems noted on this list...  I will not upgrade until I 
see, based on comments on this list, that the new version is stable and 
relatively bug free...  I use Finale to write dance band arrangements for my 
band which 2006 handles quite well...  I would have liked to have the link 
between score and parts but will not upgrade at this time because of the 
problems noted...
 
Running Windows xp fin 2006...
 
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (KB2ENK)
Musical Director for the "Simply Swing Dance Band"
Swing is just around the corner

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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Eric Dannewitz]

No no no. You can't do that. Make them participate on a list? Then they 
would have to respond to feedback. They might be confronted with things 
that they need to fix. We won't get the new, fluffy Pokemon notation 
that will be included in Finale 2009. It will be a hit with the newly 
targeted preschool/elementary school market.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I'm not sure we're noticed here, and that our online forms actually get to
people who notice our concerns.

So yesterday I mailed a real, genuine, postal letter on my very best
Southworth watermarked 100% cotton business paper to the COO of MakeMusic
outlining my concerns, explaining that I am a long-term customer (15
years), and this time I am not buying the Finale upgrade and instead
purchasing a Sibelius crossgrade.

I explained that I was one among many professionals who are taking a "year
off" from Finale, asking for for a bugfix version, objecting to what
amounted to a yearly subscription model instead of bugfix patches, and
asking for a Finale employee to participate actively in this list.

  


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Bruce Clausen]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have bought the Competitive Upgrade 
from Sibelius, since we can do that this month for half price.  The softward 
arrived yesterday, so I am just getting used to the differences.  Because I 
used Simple Entry in Fin the differences aren't all that great.  What I do 
like about Sib is that I can access many of functions with a mouse click, 
where in Fin I would have to drop down a menu and select.  On Fin's side, I 
don't yet see in Sib the ability to tweak things, e.g. hairpins, expression 
placement, slurs, etc., but this may be that I haven't yet found the means 
of doing so.  So far, I believe that Sib is more the way I like to work . . 
. but it is way too soon for a really informed judgment.

Bruce Clausen


- Original Message - 
From: "Johannes Gebauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08



On 10.10.2007 Daniel Wolf wrote:
Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more 
accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, professional 
users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug fixes, and (c) iare 
either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing product during 
this cycle?


I believe I do qualify for a, although I don't use every aspect of the 
Finale package.


I have had serious concerns about bug fixes for a long time.
And, although I haven't decided to not buy Finale 2k8 (I may have to for 
compatibility reasons), I will not buy it yet.


I do have serious concerns about the future of Finale in general. My being 
thrown out of the beta team is one of the reasons, as I can only guess 
about the reasons for that. And for some reason I have the feeling it has 
to do with some company policies on bug fixing.


We have witnessed many software packages die because they came second. My 
feeling is that Finale is loosing the battle right now. All Sibelius now 
need is a real plugin interface and some serious third party plugins.


The reason Finale is loosing the battle is bugs. 2k7 was a catch up 
version, but Sibelius has not been asleep. Had Fin2k8b been a bug fix 
version, all would have been well. But now I feel it is probably too late.


Johannes

http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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[Finale] Re: Finale '08

[shirling & neueweise]

At 19:40 +0200 10/10/07, Daniel Wolf wrote:
Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more 
accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, 
professional users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug 
fixes, and (c) iare either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a 
competing product during this cycle?


thanks daniel for bringing this up.  i believe this is a good 
initiattive, but also think each person who has an issue with finale 
should also themselves contact MM and express their concerns.


additional weight could be given to such a compilation as you have 
suggested if responders gave an indication of how many potential 
finale users they have suggested use sibelius instead, and if certain 
people could let MM know that they are also responsible for the 
ordering of multiple licences for the institution where they work.  i 
think i remember who it was, but won't mention the name, a few years 
back said s/he was an avowed finale user and would not switch to 
sibelius, essentially because of the time invested, but that when the 
order went in for the lab (?) s/he was responsible for outfitting, it 
went to sibelius.


i don't think i'm the only one that gets the impression that the MM 
crew don't really give a shit about individual users -- power-users 
or not -- but if the influence that individuals can be factored into 
the complaints, they will have at least a **little** more weight.


jef chippewa
- long-term mac user (since 3.5)
- extremely knowledgable of finale and of notation (especially 
contemporary practices), and fairly to quite knowledgable in related 
areas of typography and graphic design (as applied to notation)
- have usually skipped every other upgrade because of insufficient 
ameliorations to poorly or incompletely implemented features and 
problematic bugs
- have sometimes upgraded only because a client had already upgraded; 
not upgrading would have meant losing a contract and possibly a new 
client
- have suggested to many potential finale users that sibelius would 
possibly be better for them for its ease of use for new learners (as 
perceived by many)

- have 2008 (not necessarily by choice), have not elected to use it yet
- i would insist that F2009 be a massive bug-fix and correction version

--

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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[ThomaStudios]

On Oct 10, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Daniel Wolfr wrote:


Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more
accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term,  
professional
users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug fixes, and (c)  
iare

either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing product
during this cycle?


I've been a Finale user since v1.0.  Yes.  1.0.  I started using  
Finale on my first Mac SE/30 in late 1989.  I remember when it took  
something obscene like 10-12 nested dialog boxes just to move an  
articulation!!  But it wasn't until I finally got 2.0.1 that I  
started being able to use Finale professionally and more  
productively.  That was in mid 1990.  I've been using it for my own  
work, sessions, and clients professionally ever since.


I have a HUGE body of Finale work that I've amassed over the years.   
So unfortunately, I can't abandon Finale completely.  It's just not  
feasible.  But I have ordered the Sibelius competitive upgrade out of  
frustration with Finale's 'annual subscription' model and the  
multitude of bugs.  I'm using FinMac 2007 now, almost exclusively,  
due mainly to the linked parts.  But the shortcomings there are  
frustrating.  Yet I've managed to become proficient with it and I  
like not having to edit score and individual parts over and over and  
over...  But I've told MM I would not be upgrading until there was  
significant progress on bug fixes, and enhancement of existing tools,  
not new features.  I mean, who really gives a rat's ass about colored  
noteheads?!?!


I average about 20-30 hours a week minimum, working in Finale  
professionally.  I know the program very well, yet I'm constantly  
learning something new.  The latest was 1/4 tone key signatures and  
the associated notation, all due to a new client project.


I'd really like to see Make Music succeed, given my history with  
them.  Alas, I'm not all that optimistic.  Hopefully I'll be wrong on  
that sentiment.  We'll see.


J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios




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[Finale] Re: test

[shirling & neueweise]

Since I got my computer running again, I'm not 
getting much mail on the three lists with which 
I keep up.  Has mail here been particularly 
light?


Everybody¹s migrated to Sibelius...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

yeh.

there was once a sign on the saskatchewan-alberta 
border, not sure exactly where, maybe at Alsask 
(yes, that really is the name of the town) at a 
time when there were massive amounts of people 
leaving sask, the only province with a declning 
population.  the sign read: "would the last 
person out please turn off the lights"


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com

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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[shirling & neueweise]

No no no. You can't do that. Make them participate on a list? Then 
they would have to respond to feedback. They might be confronted 
with things that they need to fix. We won't get the new, fluffy 
Pokemon notation that will be included in Finale 2009. It will be a 
hit with the newly targeted preschool/elementary school market.


not to mention that we don't get finale water bottles anymore...

i'm really disappointed.

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[dhbailey]

A few months ago Bob Morabito (I think it was him -- if not, I apologize 
to whomever it was) posted the e-mail addresses of the COO, CTO, CEO and 
several others at MakeMusic and posted a copy of the letter he sent 
(with CC: to all of them) listing his concerns and complaints and he 
urged any/all of us to do the same.  I did, writing my own letter and 
sending it to the same recipients.


I got a very encouraging reply from one of them, asking me for more 
specific details of my concerns with a response which was encouraging as 
to the fact that they might actually be addressed.


A couple of weeks ago I sent a follow up message asking what sort of 
progress was being made in addressing the concerns.  I haven't heard 
anything and feel confirmed in my initial feeling that the responses I 
received was just so much bull-shit to get me to be quiet.


I suspect that Dennis will get a similar "we really care, trust us, tell 
us what we can do to address your concerns" blow-off reply, even when he 
uses his finest linen writing paper.


It seems that some big-wig at MakeMusic has as his pet hobby-horse 
SmartMusic Accompaniment system and won't allow the resources to be 
allocated fairly so that Finale's problems can be properly addressed, 
all the while the accounting shows that the company depends on the 
income from the notation programs and especially the annual upgrades, 
which make whichever quarter they come out in a profitable quarter.


It escapes me how a corporation which used to be profitable, even if 
just barely, when it had one main product (Finale) and started taking 
losses when it added a second product (SmartMusic Accompaniment System) 
can't understand that it's got its focus on the wrong product.  It 
should put its main focus and development dollars back on Finale and 
make big push to get it back to the top of the heap and a bigger push to 
get it into schools.  SmartMusic has a limited market -- even though 
students might subscribe while in school, most musicians aren't 
interested in that sort of program, but many many musicians are 
interested in notation programs.


But no matter what escapes me, it's what escapes the powers that be at 
MakeMusic which scares the heck out of me and sent me to really learning 
Sibelius (which is much more flexible than in previous versions). 
Sibelius at least shows that it cares, and that it takes customer 
concerns and complaints seriously.


And with all that MakeMusic has copied from Sibelius, it's a shame that 
it hasn't figured out that corporate interaction with the public is one 
place where Sibelius shines and should be emulated.


David H. Bailey



Eric Dannewitz wrote:
No no no. You can't do that. Make them participate on a list? Then they 
would have to respond to feedback. They might be confronted with things 
that they need to fix. We won't get the new, fluffy Pokemon notation 
that will be included in Finale 2009. It will be a hit with the newly 
targeted preschool/elementary school market.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not sure we're noticed here, and that our online forms actually 
get to

people who notice our concerns.

So yesterday I mailed a real, genuine, postal letter on my very best
Southworth watermarked 100% cotton business paper to the COO of MakeMusic
outlining my concerns, explaining that I am a long-term customer (15
years), and this time I am not buying the Finale upgrade and instead
purchasing a Sibelius crossgrade.

I explained that I was one among many professionals who are taking a 
"year

off" from Finale, asking for for a bugfix version, objecting to what
amounted to a yearly subscription model instead of bugfix patches, and
asking for a Finale employee to participate actively in this list.

  


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 10.10.2007 Christopher Smith wrote:

What did they say to you when they informed you that you would not be beta 
testing any more?



They did not inform me at all. Nada. I eventually asked why I hadn't 
heard. It took them two weeks to reply.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[dhbailey]

If by "tweaking" things, you mean adjusting the placement of individual 
items in the music, simply click on it and either drag it or use the 
cursor keys to move it.


If you mean "edit" then you can do a lot of that under House Style menu, 
Edit Text Styles -- to Sibelius expressions are just a special type of 
text, not an entirely separate thing.


One thing that takes some adjustment in converting to Sibelius is having 
to stop thinking of things in "Finale terms."


David H. Bailey


Bruce Clausen wrote:
As I mentioned in a previous post, I have bought the Competitive Upgrade 
from Sibelius, since we can do that this month for half price.  The 
softward arrived yesterday, so I am just getting used to the 
differences.  Because I used Simple Entry in Fin the differences aren't 
all that great.  What I do like about Sib is that I can access many of 
functions with a mouse click, where in Fin I would have to drop down a 
menu and select.  On Fin's side, I don't yet see in Sib the ability to 
tweak things, e.g. hairpins, expression placement, slurs, etc., but this 
may be that I haven't yet found the means of doing so.  So far, I 
believe that Sib is more the way I like to work . . . but it is way too 
soon for a really informed judgment.

Bruce Clausen


- Original Message - From: "Johannes Gebauer" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08



On 10.10.2007 Daniel Wolf wrote:
Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more 
accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, 
professional users of Finale, (b) have serious concerns about bug 
fixes, and (c) iare either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a 
competing product during this cycle?


I believe I do qualify for a, although I don't use every aspect of the 
Finale package.


I have had serious concerns about bug fixes for a long time.
And, although I haven't decided to not buy Finale 2k8 (I may have to 
for compatibility reasons), I will not buy it yet.


I do have serious concerns about the future of Finale in general. My 
being thrown out of the beta team is one of the reasons, as I can only 
guess about the reasons for that. And for some reason I have the 
feeling it has to do with some company policies on bug fixing.


We have witnessed many software packages die because they came second. 
My feeling is that Finale is loosing the battle right now. All 
Sibelius now need is a real plugin interface and some serious third 
party plugins.


The reason Finale is loosing the battle is bugs. 2k7 was a catch up 
version, but Sibelius has not been asleep. Had Fin2k8b been a bug fix 
version, all would have been well. But now I feel it is probably too 
late.


Johannes

http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Richard Smith]

Bruce Clausen wrote:
On Fin's side, I don't yet see in Sib the ability to tweak things, 
e.g. hairpins, expression placement, slurs, etc., but this may be that 
I haven't yet found the means of doing so.  So far, I believe that Sib 
is more the way I like to work . . . but it is way too soon for a 
really informed judgment.

Bruce Clausen

Look in the "properties" window (ctrl+alt+p) for individual adjustments 
of highlighted elements and under House Styles>Engraving Rules 
(ctrl+shift+e) for global adjustments. While Sibelius is different form 
Finale, I think you'll find plenty of ways to tweak things.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[shirling & neueweise]

posted the e-mail addresses of the COO, CTO, CEO and several others 
at MakeMusic and posted a copy of the letter he sent (with CC: to 
all of them) listing his concerns and complaints and he urged 
any/all of us to do the same.  I did, writing my own letter and 
sending it to the same recipients.


I got a very encouraging reply from one of them, asking me for more 
specific details of my concerns with a response which was 
encouraging as to the fact that they might actually be addressed.




does this at all resemble the very encouraging reply you received (my 
original message and the addresses follow)?  they have so far lived 
up to my expectations of them never "coming back to me at some point".





Subject: RE: Reflections on Finale 2008
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:53:30 -0500
From: "Dunn, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "shirling & neueweise" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Dear Jef;

First of all, I am sorry for your disappointment in our product; we 
take seriously those points of both deficiency and improvement that 
our passed on to us from our customers. Their response to what we do 
is very much a part of our planning for maintenance releases 
(provided at no charge) and the annual upgrade that is sold. We make 
every effort to provide the best product we can to a very broad base 
of users.


I will be sure your response is passed on to the development team, 
and that it will get close consideration. We may come back to you at 
some point and ask for more specifics, and hope that you will help 
us in that regard.


Best Regards,

Mark Dunn
CTO
MakeMusic, Inc.


--


Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 03:34:00 +0200
To: John Paulson Chief Executive Officer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
Ron Raup President <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mark Dunn Chief Technology 
Officer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Karen VanDerBosch Chief Financial 
Officer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mary Schneider Chief Marketing 
Officer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Richard Llewellyn 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alan Shuler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
Bill Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alan Shuler 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jeff McGuire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Anne 
Bartsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

From: shirling & neueweise <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Reflections on Finale 2008
Cc: "Johnson, Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], finale@shsu.edu
Bcc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], keith hamel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
kevin austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Andrew Homzy 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, joao miguel pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

X-Attachments:


Dear Board of Directors, Development Team, Marketing and Sales Team 
of Finale (MakeMusic),


I was EXTREMELY disappointed that some MAJOR outstanding issues were 
not resolved in F2008, in particular issues around linked parts. The 
impression that I got (and I hope I am wrong on this) on this 
particular issue was that the development team reps fielded a few 
questions knowing it was a hot topic but ultimately had no plans to 
do any real work on the tool, which, in my opinion, is one of the 
major reasons since F2005 for existing users to upgrade. I know I am 
not alone in my disappointment, as MM would be if it monitored the 
Finale email list. There are many people who are really dissatisfied 
with the incredibly incomplete implementation of linked parts, and 
many users who seriously doubt it is even worth the effort to 
upgrade, given the number of things which do not function nearly 
properly (I have written at length about this).


I do also understand issues of "marketing" and the need to seek out 
new buyers of Finale, but I hope the administration and marketing 
teams understand that many long-term users may be in a position to 
choose which company their department will purchase multiple 
software licences from for the university computer / music labs they 
run... and I know of people who have suggested Sibelius to new 
notation programme users (I am part of this group) while remaining 
themselves Finale users in some cases only because of the time they 
have invested in the programme, and the time it would take to get up 
to the same level of use with a new or unfamiliar programme.


I find it deplorable that I should have to even mention this as a 
form of argument, but repeated requests to provide a 
properly-functioning programme or to at least provide updates to fix 
things between versions -- rather than forcing the user to pay for 
an upgrade to get the fix, possibly touted as a "new feature" 
(dubious, very dubious marketing practice) -- don't seem to work as 
efficiently as one would hope. Quite honestly, the impression 
amongst a number of long-term users of Finale have is that MM does 
not really value them and is far more interested in "newbies"; how 
else can one explain how so many significant shortcomings of the 
programme, shortcomings that a novice may not even notice but which 
can have significant i

Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Ah, it has finally happened. The Finale List is now morphing into a  
Sibelius list. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just an  
interesting example of Darwin's thesis.


Dean

On Oct 10, 2007, at 2:23 PM, Richard Smith wrote:


Bruce Clausen wrote:
On Fin's side, I don't yet see in Sib the ability to tweak things,  
e.g. hairpins, expression placement, slurs, etc., but this may be  
that I haven't yet found the means of doing so.  So far, I believe  
that Sib is more the way I like to work . . . but it is way too  
soon for a really informed judgment.

Bruce Clausen

Look in the "properties" window (ctrl+alt+p) for individual  
adjustments of highlighted elements and under House  
Styles>Engraving Rules (ctrl+shift+e) for global adjustments. While  
Sibelius is different form Finale, I think you'll find plenty of  
ways to tweak things.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com


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Don't worry about the end of the world, it's already tomorrow in  
Australia.


Charles Shultz






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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Eric Dannewitz]

I think it was jef chippewa

dhbailey wrote:
A few months ago Bob Morabito (I think it was him -- if not, I 
apologize to whomever it was) posted the e-mail addresses of the COO, 
CTO, CEO and several others at MakeMusic and posted a copy of the 
letter he sent (with CC: to all of them) listing his concerns and 
complaints and he urged any/all of us to do the same.  I did, writing 
my own letter and sending it to the same recipients.


I got a very encouraging reply from one of them, asking me for more 
specific details of my concerns with a response which was encouraging 
as to the fact that they might actually be addressed.


A couple of weeks ago I sent a follow up message asking what sort of 
progress was being made in addressing the concerns.  I haven't heard 
anything and feel confirmed in my initial feeling that the responses I 
received was just so much bull-shit to get me to be quiet.


I suspect that Dennis will get a similar "we really care, trust us, 
tell us what we can do to address your concerns" blow-off reply, even 
when he uses his finest linen writing paper.


It seems that some big-wig at MakeMusic has as his pet hobby-horse 
SmartMusic Accompaniment system and won't allow the resources to be 
allocated fairly so that Finale's problems can be properly addressed, 
all the while the accounting shows that the company depends on the 
income from the notation programs and especially the annual upgrades, 
which make whichever quarter they come out in a profitable quarter.


It escapes me how a corporation which used to be profitable, even if 
just barely, when it had one main product (Finale) and started taking 
losses when it added a second product (SmartMusic Accompaniment 
System) can't understand that it's got its focus on the wrong 
product.  It should put its main focus and development dollars back on 
Finale and make big push to get it back to the top of the heap and a 
bigger push to get it into schools.  SmartMusic has a limited market 
-- even though students might subscribe while in school, most 
musicians aren't interested in that sort of program, but many many 
musicians are interested in notation programs.


But no matter what escapes me, it's what escapes the powers that be at 
MakeMusic which scares the heck out of me and sent me to really 
learning Sibelius (which is much more flexible than in previous 
versions). Sibelius at least shows that it cares, and that it takes 
customer concerns and complaints seriously.


And with all that MakeMusic has copied from Sibelius, it's a shame 
that it hasn't figured out that corporate interaction with the public 
is one place where Sibelius shines and should be emulated.


David H. Bailey



Eric Dannewitz wrote:
No no no. You can't do that. Make them participate on a list? Then 
they would have to respond to feedback. They might be confronted with 
things that they need to fix. We won't get the new, fluffy Pokemon 
notation that will be included in Finale 2009. It will be a hit with 
the newly targeted preschool/elementary school market.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not sure we're noticed here, and that our online forms actually 
get to

people who notice our concerns.

So yesterday I mailed a real, genuine, postal letter on my very best
Southworth watermarked 100% cotton business paper to the COO of 
MakeMusic

outlining my concerns, explaining that I am a long-term customer (15
years), and this time I am not buying the Finale upgrade and instead
purchasing a Sibelius crossgrade.

I explained that I was one among many professionals who are taking a 
"year

off" from Finale, asking for for a bugfix version, objecting to what
amounted to a yearly subscription model instead of bugfix patches, and
asking for a Finale employee to participate actively in this list.

  


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Eric Dannewitz]

Or tee-shirts. I need my tee-shirts!

shirling & neueweise wrote:


No no no. You can't do that. Make them participate on a list? Then 
they would have to respond to feedback. They might be confronted with 
things that they need to fix. We won't get the new, fluffy Pokemon 
notation that will be included in Finale 2009. It will be a hit with 
the newly targeted preschool/elementary school market.


not to mention that we don't get finale water bottles anymore...

i'm really disappointed.



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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Bruce Clausen]

I don't know about morphing . . . When I posted to the list that I was going 
to get the Sib Competitive Upgrade, one reply asked me to keep the list 
informed as to my progress/lack thereof.  So that is what I did.  I was just 
fortunate that someone knew the solution to my problem.

Bruce


- Original Message - 
From: "Dean M. Estabrook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08


Ah, it has finally happened. The Finale List is now morphing into a 
Sibelius list. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just an 
interesting example of Darwin's thesis.


Dean

On Oct 10, 2007, at 2:23 PM, Richard Smith wrote:


Bruce Clausen wrote:
On Fin's side, I don't yet see in Sib the ability to tweak things,  e.g. 
hairpins, expression placement, slurs, etc., but this may be  that I 
haven't yet found the means of doing so.  So far, I believe  that Sib is 
more the way I like to work . . . but it is way too  soon for a really 
informed judgment.

Bruce Clausen

Look in the "properties" window (ctrl+alt+p) for individual  adjustments 
of highlighted elements and under House  Styles>Engraving Rules 
(ctrl+shift+e) for global adjustments. While  Sibelius is different form 
Finale, I think you'll find plenty of  ways to tweak things.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com


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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Don't worry about the end of the world, it's already tomorrow in 
Australia.


Charles Shultz






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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 10, 2007, at 4:43 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:



additional weight could be given to such a compilation as you have  
suggested if responders gave an indication of how many potential  
finale users they have suggested use sibelius instead, and if  
certain people could let MM know that they are also responsible for  
the ordering of multiple licences for the institution where they  
work.  i think i remember who it was, but won't mention the name, a  
few years back said s/he was an avowed finale user and would not  
switch to sibelius, essentially because of the time invested, but  
that when the order went in for the lab (?) s/he was responsible  
for outfitting, it went to sibelius.


That description might apply to John Howell and me. 15 workstations  
(all of them) at my school upgraded this year to Sibelius 5, but not  
Finale.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 10, 2007, at 5:10 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 10.10.2007 Christopher Smith wrote:
What did they say to you when they informed you that you would not  
be beta testing any more?



They did not inform me at all. Nada. I eventually asked why I  
hadn't heard. It took them two weeks to reply.



That is bad manners toward a valued correspondent, aside from being  
bad practice in general.


You said you had a guess as to the reason. Care to share it?

Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Barbara Touburg]

I have one! A very large blue one! (guess where it came from - thanks, 
Carla!)


Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Or tee-shirts. I need my tee-shirts!



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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Bruce Clausen]

Thanks, David and Richard.  Am tweaking happily away!
BC


- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08



Bruce Clausen wrote:
On Fin's side, I don't yet see in Sib the ability to tweak things, e.g. 
hairpins, expression placement, slurs, etc., but this may be that I 
haven't yet found the means of doing so.  So far, I believe that Sib is 
more the way I like to work . . . but it is way too soon for a really 
informed judgment.

Bruce Clausen

Look in the "properties" window (ctrl+alt+p) for individual adjustments of 
highlighted elements and under House Styles>Engraving Rules (ctrl+shift+e) 
for global adjustments. While Sibelius is different form Finale, I think 
you'll find plenty of ways to tweak things.


Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com


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Re: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[shirling & neueweise]

That description might apply to John Howell and me. 15 workstations 
(all of them) at my school upgraded this year to Sibelius 5, but not 
Finale.


yeh i figgerd i could shake you out! 8-)

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shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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RE: [Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Richard Yates]

- I am a long term amateur user (with six books published).
- I will not upgrade to Fin2008 (the first I skipped in ten years).
- I ill be reluctant to upgrade to 2009 unless bug fixes are made.
- I check out each new Sibelius version to see if it can do what I need.

Richard Yates

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>On Behalf Of Daniel Wolf
>Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:41 AM
>To: finale@shsu.edu
>Subject: [Finale] Re: Finale '08
>
>I've just reviewed most of the posts dealing with Finale '08, 
>and -- following what appears to be a consensus around here -- 
>have decided to stick with '07 until notice of further 
>improvements in known bugs.
>
>I also took a look at some press statements on the MakeMusic 
>site announcing quarterly results. Two aspects of those statements are
>striking: continued losses, and the importance of notation 
>programs (relative to other products) in the income stream of 
>the company.  
>Clearly, this is a company that cannot take a publicity hit 
>with its prestige notation product.
>
> From my own informal count on this list, at least twenty 
>established, long-term, professional users have indicated that 
>they are not switching to '08; most of them indicate that bug 
>fixing is their main concern, several of indicated a move to a 
>competing product. 
>
>Perhaps it would be useful to document the number of such 
>users more precisely and use it as a form of leverage to 
>encourage MakeMusic to concentrate on improving the product's 
>present functionality before adding other features. I believe 
>that most of us here would really prefer to be loyal Finale 
>users, but the benefits of Finale appear for many of us to 
>have been outweighed by the disadvantages.
>
>Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a 
>more accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a 
>long-term, professional users of Finale, (b) have serious 
>concerns about bug fixes, and (c) iare either skipping an '08 
>upgrade or switching to a competing product during this cycle?
>
>Daniel Wolf
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Finale

[Eric Dannewitz]

Side note, I received yet another upgrade today flyer from MakeMusic. I 
think this is the third one from them (since I have two copies of Finale 
2007)


Marvin Rosenthal wrote:

I've been a long time (since 2000) user and have remained on version 2006 
because of all the problems noted on this list...  I will not upgrade until I 
see, based on comments on this list, that the new version is stable and 
relatively bug free...  I use Finale to write dance band arrangements for my 
band which 2006 handles quite well...  I would have liked to have the link 
between score and parts but will not upgrade at this time because of the 
problems noted...
 
Running Windows xp fin 2006...
 
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (KB2ENK)

Musical Director for the "Simply Swing Dance Band"
Swing is just around the corner
  


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[Finale] Re: Finale '08

[Randolph Peters]

Daniel Wolf wrote:
Would it be possible now, from the list membership, to get a more 
accurate sense of the number of us who are (a) a long-term, 
professional users of Finale


User since version 1.0

Among other things, I've written 3 operas in Finale and use pretty 
much every feature except guitar tabs and microphone input. (Okay, I 
also have abandoned Mirrors long ago, if you want to get picky.)


I must have about 200 Quickey macros memorized for use in Finale. On 
most days, I'm using Finale for about 8 to 16 hours.


When serious bugs don't get fixed in updates or new versions, it 
feels like a personal injury.



(b) have serious concerns about bug fixes


I have often written to Finale tech support and others in the company 
with bug reports. I have occasionally gotten a nice letter in return, 
but in the last 4 years NOT ONE of my concerns have been dealt with.


(c) are either skipping an '08 upgrade or switching to a competing 
product during this cycle?


Even though I am looking at Sibelius 5, I would prefer to stay in 
Finale, if only for the work I've already done in it.


I am not buying Finale 2008 because my biggest problems with 2007 
were not fixed. Heck, if only the flipping accidental bug was fixed, 
I'd buy Finale 2008! See MM? It doesn't take much to keep us happy!


-Randolph Peters
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