Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too. Rimsky Korsakov is available online: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=34 and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=41 Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote: On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word
exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black images. tif (1200 ppi) functions fine. i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...? anyone know why this might happen? trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
Dear Steve, Thanks for the plug. Gary will soon remove all but some teaser chapters and examples from his website - because the book has just been released by Hal Leonard (with the scrolling playback examples on a CD). My editor at HL was responsive and cooperative (and helpful in the usual ways for which one would need an editor), so I think the book turned out well. There is no comprehensive study of orchestration possibilities in the book, and I regret ignoring the possibilities of the piccolo, since we are discussing octave transpositions. My old friend and mentor, the late John Garvey, used to say that much of what is written for flute in jazz bands would sound better on the piccolo, and he had a good point. In any case, I am glad this work - encouraged, even insisted upon, by Gary Garritan, as well as invested in by him (he paid for all the work to make the playback examples sound reasonably musical and for all the Flash files for the scrolling score examples), is finally out. The book seems like a perfect fit as an iPad app/eBook, except that the scrolling scores are done in Adobe Flash, and Apple does not accept Flash files. That's a disappointment! Chuck On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Steve Parker wrote: There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too. Rimsky Korsakov is available online: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=34 and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=41 Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote: On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word
Hi Jef, My suggestion is to not EPS from Finale. Instead, make a PDF, crop as needed, and insert the PDF graphics into the Word file. Or you could use a graphics program to convert the existing EPS files to PDF. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:25 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black images. tif (1200 ppi) functions fine. i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...? anyone know why this might happen? trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word
I always print to Adobe pdf printer driver (include fonts), open in Acrobat, crop, save as EPS, import into Word. It shows as rough tif preview graphic on screen but prints fine. -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of SN jef chippewa Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 7:26 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black images. tif (1200 ppi) functions fine. i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...? anyone know why this might happen? trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
I'll place my order.. There is a ton of insight into compositional practice that is widely applicable (to any genre) and elegantly written. Maybe it could be converted to an iPad app? I have no idea how these things work.. Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are not many instruments I can never imagine writing for (unless paid of course) but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-) Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 15:37, Chuck Israels wrote: Dear Steve, Thanks for the plug. Gary will soon remove all but some teaser chapters and examples from his website - because the book has just been released by Hal Leonard (with the scrolling playback examples on a CD). My editor at HL was responsive and cooperative (and helpful in the usual ways for which one would need an editor), so I think the book turned out well. There is no comprehensive study of orchestration possibilities in the book, and I regret ignoring the possibilities of the piccolo, since we are discussing octave transpositions. My old friend and mentor, the late John Garvey, used to say that much of what is written for flute in jazz bands would sound better on the piccolo, and he had a good point. In any case, I am glad this work - encouraged, even insisted upon, by Gary Garritan, as well as invested in by him (he paid for all the work to make the playback examples sound reasonably musical and for all the Flash files for the scrolling score examples), is finally out. The book seems like a perfect fit as an iPad app/eBook, except that the scrolling scores are done in Adobe Flash, and Apple does not accept Flash files. That's a disappointment! Chuck On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Steve Parker wrote: There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too. Rimsky Korsakov is available online: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=34 and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=41 Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote: On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've used and seen. To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it keeps each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the apocalypse. It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course). Think about it: Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4, A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven. I think that's doable. Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the middle, and the brake on the right. Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in trying to drive that car. That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef. It's not a matter of getting used to it as someone had stated. I AM used to it, I just hate it. All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception. This tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight (and eventually, all sights.). If the tenor part ventures high, and stays there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in their layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines. They have ultimate control over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for over 10 years). The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef; they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear. The same goes for adults. I think that where things are getting lost and mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through publishers. Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work. It's a harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless. Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
Hi Chuck, This is actually an excellent point -- my own take on this would be that bigband flute parts within the staff often sound better on alto flute, whereas flute parts above the staff often sound better on piccolo (especially when doubling lead tpt, either at pitch or 8va). Good piccolo doublers are still a bit rare in jazz, though. I'm lucky that Erica von Kleist really enjoys the piccolo and plays quite a lot of it, including bringing it to jam sessions, etc. She plays great flute too, but hates soloing on it, and I can see why -- it's much easier to get a satisfying jazz sound on piccolo. I didn't write any piccolo parts for her on the last record because I hadn't really started exploring that possibility, but my current writing has piccolo all over the place. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:37 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: My old friend and mentor, the late John Garvey, used to say that much of what is written for flute in jazz bands would sound better on the piccolo, and he had a good point. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And, if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like? Go back to my example of trombonists for a second. I mentioned the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe. As I recall, the 2nd trombone part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G. For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass clef! Ridiculous! Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every case, no matter what the range). The next week we may play the same composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass clef - absurd! But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's our job. Musicians have to read the music that is there. Composers and arrangers can write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you write to their standards. If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time. If you sell more than the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start complaining. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've used and seen. To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it keeps each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the apocalypse. It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course). Think about it: Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4, A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven. I think that's doable. Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the middle, and the brake on the right. Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in trying to drive that car. That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef. It's not a matter of getting used to it as someone had stated. I AM used to it, I just hate it. All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception. This tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight (and eventually, all sights.). If the tenor part ventures high, and stays there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in their layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines. They have ultimate control over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for over 10 years). The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef; they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear. The same goes for adults. I think that where things are getting lost and mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through publishers. Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work. It's a harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless. Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect. It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef to a treble clef. Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is difficult to justify rationally. As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including transpositions and octave displacements. These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff. Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote: Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And, if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like? Go back to my example of trombonists for a second. I mentioned the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe. As I recall, the 2nd trombone part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G. For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass clef! Ridiculous! Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every case, no matter what the range). The next week we may play the same composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass clef - absurd! But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's our job. Musicians have to read the music that is there. Composers and arrangers can write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you write to their standards. If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time. If you sell more than the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start complaining. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've used and seen. To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it keeps each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the apocalypse. It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course). Think about it: Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4, A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven. I think that's doable. Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the middle, and the brake on the right. Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in trying to drive that car. That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef. It's not a matter of getting used to it as someone had stated. I AM used to it, I just hate it. All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception. This tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight (and eventually, all sights.). If the tenor part ventures high, and stays there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in their layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines. They have ultimate control over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for over 10 years).
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
I agree with you Raymond we ought to be able to play what's written, but when I'm writing stuff for any groups to which I have access, I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs, etc.,, or it just don't get read ... good practice anyway ... Dean On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And, if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like? Go back to my example of trombonists for a second. I mentioned the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe. As I recall, the 2nd trombone part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G. For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass clef! Ridiculous! Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every case, no matter what the range). The next week we may play the same composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass clef - absurd! But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's our job. Musicians have to read the music that is there. Composers and arrangers can write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you write to their standards. If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time. If you sell more than the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start complaining. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've used and seen. To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it keeps each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the apocalypse. It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course). Think about it: Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4, A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven. I think that's doable. Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the middle, and the brake on the right. Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in trying to drive that car. That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef. It's not a matter of getting used to it as someone had stated. I AM used to it, I just hate it. All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception. This tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight (and eventually, all sights.). If the tenor part ventures high, and stays there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in their layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines. They have ultimate control over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for over 10 years). The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef; they say
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were published with an open score with bass clef for tenors. I said I remember them as being easy to read, or something like that. 1) I am a terrible pianist. I have certainly had plenty of years experience hearing a conventional choral score in my head, but playing it with my own two stupid hands (it IS my hands' fault, right?) is another story. These pieces were easier for me to play - but see point two for more reasons. 2) These pieces were easy and mellow, and had particularly low tenor parts - like fourth line F up to middle C (bass clef, remember) - with a lot of Gs on C and G chords (man, that sounds boring - but they were pretty good). Which was good for my church choir at the time, which had a couple of baritones shoring up the tenor section. Would not be good for my current choir, which has a good tenor section made up of real tenors and a couple of women who never came to terms with their head voice. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Steve Parker st...@pinkrat.co.uk wrote: With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect. It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef to a treble clef. Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is difficult to justify rationally. As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including transpositions and octave displacements. These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff. Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote: Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And, if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like? Go back to my example of trombonists for a second. I mentioned the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe. As I recall, the 2nd trombone part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G. For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass clef! Ridiculous! Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every case, no matter what the range). The next week we may play the same composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass clef - absurd! But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's our job. Musicians have to read the music that is there. Composers and arrangers can write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you write to their standards. If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time. If you sell more than the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start complaining. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've used and seen. To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it keeps each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the apocalypse. It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
At 5:18 PM +0100 9/16/11, Steve Parker wrote: Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are not many instruments I can never imagine writing for (unless paid of course) but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-) Interesting statement, Steve. I can't imagine not having piccolo available for concert band music, and it's been an orchestral instrument for about 250 years (although Beethoven didn't use it in a symphony until his 5th). The earlier piccolo concertos--including the several by Vivaldi--were actually for sopranino recorder rather than small transverse flute. Of course like any strong spice, it needs to be used sparingly and in exactly the right places, but in those places it's the only thing that can do the job. If you happen to remember Billy May's Sorta Dixie album, whoever played the piccolo double on it was a superb player, and the jazz piccolo solo(s) was played really elegantly. Don't judge the instrument by high school marching bands. Our Community Band has two excellent piccolists, one a retired professional and the other an excellent semi-professional, and they both play in tune and with beautiful tone. Bagpipes? Well, there's a place for them and their music, preferably not too close by! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
At 1:31 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote: I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were published with an open score with bass clef for tenors. I said I remember them as being easy to read, or something like that. Things get really interesting when we start talking about specific situations. Here's one that's different yet.For 14 years I shared arranging duties with a colleague for the university show ensemble I directed. Our approach to arranging and the WAY we arranged was different, and that made for a nice variety. And we were both writing for a 22-voice cast (plus a 12-piece showband behind them). For my vocal charts I almost always used 2 staves: treble clef for the women and tenor G-clef for the men. Why? It simply fit the music better, kept most of it within the staff, and didn't run into the lyrics between the staves. And when you're copying by hand with commercially-printed score paper you can't move the staves around!!! Plus which in commercial vocal writing the bass voice is often not a bass line at all, but a low harmony part. In fact you don't WANT your bass voice down where it conflicts with the string bass or bass guitar (or bass trombone or bari sax) in the sonic spectrum. Paul, on the other hand, tended to use treble clef for ALL the voices, more often dividing them into high and low or into high, medium and low rather than the more classically-oriented SATB. It was simply because his own background was strongly in musical theater, where that's what is written almost all the time, and the octave intended by the treble clef is left somewhat up in the air or else indicated as boys or girls. And our singers never had a problem figuring out what we wanted, although there might indeed be a few questions during the first rehearsals of a new chart. But neither one of us notated for the convenience of piano players, which is what this discussion is really about. For them we provided a chord symbol line (or I did; Paul was our primary keyboardist and didn't need one for his own charts). And our 2nd keyboardists simply learned to comp from chord symbols, or else already knew how when we accepted them. Every situation is different. But complaining about notation that is absolutely standard and has been for years or centuries is sort of counterproductive. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
Of course as soon as I wrote I thought of examples in contradiction.. It does do a marvellous job in some concert band music. I've heard some of Darcy's stuff and maybe his new stuff could persuade me otherwise.. Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 18:38, John Howell wrote: At 5:18 PM +0100 9/16/11, Steve Parker wrote: Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are not many instruments I can never imagine writing for (unless paid of course) but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-) Interesting statement, Steve. I can't imagine not having piccolo available for concert band music, and it's been an orchestral instrument for about 250 years (although Beethoven didn't use it in a symphony until his 5th). The earlier piccolo concertos--including the several by Vivaldi--were actually for sopranino recorder rather than small transverse flute. Of course like any strong spice, it needs to be used sparingly and in exactly the right places, but in those places it's the only thing that can do the job. If you happen to remember Billy May's Sorta Dixie album, whoever played the piccolo double on it was a superb player, and the jazz piccolo solo(s) was played really elegantly. Don't judge the instrument by high school marching bands. Our Community Band has two excellent piccolists, one a retired professional and the other an excellent semi-professional, and they both play in tune and with beautiful tone. Bagpipes? Well, there's a place for them and their music, preferably not too close by! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 6:35 AM -0400 9/16/11, David H. Bailey wrote: On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. Rimsky's book definitely is of that type, and really amazing in trying to understand the late 19th century orchestrator's mind. It's what I'd call more of a Stage Two orchestration book, that goes well beyond just the ranges and transpositions (the mechanics of it) and into the actual use (the artistry of it). I'm not that familiar with Piston. But of course any first-semester orchestration course has to spend hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the students actually ARRANGING short exercises from day one. And I certainly agree about Andrew's book, although I made the mistake of buying it on disk and would MUCH rather have it sitting ready to pick up in my bookcase. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
Absolutely, write what is clearest and most easily understood. If bass clef for your tenors is that, fine. But saying All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception is another matter. Interesting to see real examples of how jazz trombonists never embraced clefs other than bass in solo transcriptions recently posted on youtube. All bass clef, frequently switching to 8va marks for upper register. The first example goes to bass clef plus 5 ledger line, marked 8va! http://youtu.be/pap8NHnArEA http://youtu.be/t_L11SOaURo http://youtu.be/rxxXRwTFc1c One could easily make sweeping statements about what would be preferable clef usage in these, or indeed all first trombone parts in commercial charts, but this is the tradition. Put one of these in a seemingly much more practical alto clef, or bass switching to treble (like trombone parts in many newer serious works) and trouble will ensue. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Dean M. Estabrook d.e...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with you Raymond we ought to be able to play what's written, but when I'm writing stuff for any groups to which I have access, I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs, etc.,, or it just don't get read ... good practice anyway ... Dean On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And, if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like? Go back to my example of trombonists for a second. I mentioned the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe. As I recall, the 2nd trombone part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G. For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass clef! Ridiculous! Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every case, no matter what the range). The next week we may play the same composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass clef - absurd! But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's our job. Musicians have to read the music that is there. Composers and arrangers can write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you write to their standards. If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time. If you sell more than the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start complaining. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've used and seen. To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it keeps each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the apocalypse. It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course). Think about it: Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4, A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven. I think that's doable.
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 9/16/2011 2:17 PM, John Howell wrote: [snip] And I certainly agree about Andrew's book, although I made the mistake of buying it on disk and would MUCH rather have it sitting ready to pick up in my bookcase. I value it so much, I bought it twice -- once in paper form and then as soon as it was released on disk, I bought that and moved it to my computer and now have it on my iPad for quick reference even when I'm not near my computer or office. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: Bagpipes? Well, there's a place for them and their music, preferably not too close by! It's a classic: Q. Why do bagpipers walk when they play? A. They're trying to get away from the noise. Raymond Horton (who has written for piccolo and for bagpipes, but not at the same time) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
As I have noted before, the tragedy of the bagpipe player and why he walks lies in the fact that when you stop blowing a bagpipe, the noise continues - the poor devils do not realise that they are themselves the founder of their own malady. Best wishes, Lawrence On 16 September 2011 20:26, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: Q. Why do bagpipers walk when they play? A. They're trying to get away from the noise. -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:17 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: familiar with Piston. But of course any first-semester orchestration course has to spend hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the students actually ARRANGING short exercises from day one. I am still appalled at people in music at advanced stages (including one conductor at a very advanced stage) who think that tuba sounds an octave lower than written. It IS a bit confusing for orchestration beginners, since contrabassoon and doublebass (the corresponding contrabass instruments in woodwinds and strings) both sound 8ba, but no one ever said life would be consistent. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
Agree with John here ... I just finished transcribing a Mendelssohn orchestral overture for Wind Ensemble, and could not have done it sans help from the Picc., esp. when dealing with the higher violin parts. I am a Picc. fan when it comes to that situation .. Dean On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:38 AM, John Howell wrote: At 5:18 PM +0100 9/16/11, Steve Parker wrote: Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are not many instruments I can never imagine writing for (unless paid of course) but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-) Interesting statement, Steve. I can't imagine not having piccolo available for concert band music, and it's been an orchestral instrument for about 250 years (although Beethoven didn't use it in a symphony until his 5th). The earlier piccolo concertos--including the several by Vivaldi--were actually for sopranino recorder rather than small transverse flute. Of course like any strong spice, it needs to be used sparingly and in exactly the right places, but in those places it's the only thing that can do the job. If you happen to remember Billy May's Sorta Dixie album, whoever played the piccolo double on it was a superb player, and the jazz piccolo solo(s) was played really elegantly. Don't judge the instrument by high school marching bands. Our Community Band has two excellent piccolists, one a retired professional and the other an excellent semi-professional, and they both play in tune and with beautiful tone. Bagpipes? Well, there's a place for them and their music, preferably not too close by! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale The perfect drive..a diminishing sphere of white impaling the azure heavens in a graceful ellipticheight and distance vying for supremacy..compatriot's jowls lax, eyes huge, their raucous paeans thinly veiling jealousy..one stroke justifying a capricious investment in the titanium industry. Dean M. Estabrook http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
Good thing the auidence can't hear the cleffing... ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is, the ones who have to PERFORM IT). It may not be practical for an accompanist, but it's not written for the accompanist. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. While I would not argue that tenors shouldn't be able to read leger lines, I WOULD argue that it's ludicrous to insist that more leger lines than necessary be used. Get used to it -- the clef is not going away, because it's the best compromise for the range involved. [] It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: Free clue: treble clef 8 IS THE STANDARD. You are the one who needs to get used to it. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
At least you guys know singers who can read at all. When I took first semester sight singing an North Texas, the worst readers in the class were the singers. On Sep 16, 2011, at 2:49 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, I simply find it impractical. That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is, the ones who have to PERFORM IT). It may not be practical for an accompanist, but it's not written for the accompanist. News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5. While I would not argue that tenors shouldn't be able to read leger lines, I WOULD argue that it's ludicrous to insist that more leger lines than necessary be used. Get used to it -- the clef is not going away, because it's the best compromise for the range involved. [] It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: Free clue: treble clef 8 IS THE STANDARD. You are the one who needs to get used to it. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Lon Price lonpr...@txstnr.com http://www.txstnr.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word
I converted a whole cartload of existing EPS graphics (from Fin 2005) to PDF with Preview. Worked great! I don't know the answer to the Word question. I hate the durned piece of petach! (Klingon for crap!) Christopher On Fri Sep 16, at FridaySep 16 10:58 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Jef, My suggestion is to not EPS from Finale. Instead, make a PDF, crop as needed, and insert the PDF graphics into the Word file. Or you could use a graphics program to convert the existing EPS files to PDF. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:25 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black images. tif (1200 ppi) functions fine. i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...? anyone know why this might happen? trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
At 3:05 PM -0700 9/16/11, TXSTNR POP account wrote: At least you guys know singers who can read at all. When I took first semester sight singing an North Texas, the worst readers in the class were the singers. Oh, we understand the problem; we just can't do anything about it by ourselves. There are two causes: (1) Music Education in America is catch-as-catch-can, with music ed students exposed to a number of approaches and encouraged to use whichever ones appeal to them rather than adopting a single approach and following through with it in a sequential and progressive TEACHING system. Think about what math teaching would be if every year ignored what had been learned the year before!!! That's why 6th graders in Hungary can read music infinitely better than college Sophomores in the U.S.!!! And (2), singers are permitted to get by with pretty voices and parts are pounded out for them on the piano until they finally hit those sightsinging classes at age 18 or 19, when nobody has bothered to teach them basic solfege skills. Or if they have REALLY pretty voices they go on to sing opera, where voice coaches continue to pound out the parts for them. By rights we should require good sightreading as a prerequisite before we accepted any student as a college music major, but if we actually did that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all (except the smart ones, many of whom started taking piano at around the age of 7!!). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)
At 3:26 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: Bagpipes? Well, there's a place for them and their music, preferably not too close by! It's a classic: Q. Why do bagpipers walk when they play? A. They're trying to get away from the noise. On the other hand, when I was in the Air Force Band I was always VERY impressed with the pipe corps. They were awfully good together, and the drummers played the cleanest rudiments I've ever heard: you could drive a truck through the space between their rebounds!! (They also rehearsed right under our barracks windows, so it's a good thing they WERE so good!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 4:01 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:17 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: familiar with Piston. But of course any first-semester orchestration course has to spend hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the students actually ARRANGING short exercises from day one. I am still appalled at people in music at advanced stages (including one conductor at a very advanced stage) who think that tuba sounds an octave lower than written. It IS a bit confusing for orchestration beginners, since contrabassoon and doublebass (the corresponding contrabass instruments in woodwinds and strings) both sound 8ba, but no one ever said life would be consistent. I haven't run into that, but I'm equally appalled at the otherwise good composers or arrangers who don't understand that the relationship between euphonium and tuba (in band transcriptions of orchestral music) is NOT the same as the relationship between cellos and basses in an orchestra. Sure, the tubas can PLAY the low notes that the string basses play, but they don't fill the same musical function when they're groveling down there! The use of Eb and BBb tubas is also something too many arrangers are ignorant of (and that's really a better analog of cello and bass), but it's never safe to assume that a band will have both available. (Says I who just moved back from bass trombone to Eb tuba because that's what our band needs this Fall; our terrific tubist from last Spring and Summer is now a Freshman music major at Indiana.) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
