[Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
dhbailey dhbailey at davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: f >But now I am more versatile as an engraver and have two >tools with which to work when clients request one or the >other. Not that I'm buried in engraving work or anything, >but I did just take on a project for $1000 which the client >has requested I work in Sibelius. And given the nature of >the project that would have been the program I would have >started it in anyway, so it makes life so much easier. >But if all anybody on this list does is their own work, >there's no need to investigate Sibelius as long as you can >do what you want in Finale. It's only when one runs into >the possibility of doing work for clients which originates >in either program that one needs to be proficient in both. I have a not dissimilar relationship with both applications. Almost all of the typesetting I do is done in Sibelius, because it is usually requested. Additionally, the music conservatoire at which I teach uses Sibelius on all its machines. Statistically, I probably open up Sibelius more frequently than I do Finale in any given week (excepting one where I'm trying to finish a piece), but I still consider myself primarily a Finale user, because I do my own composition work in it. However I could count on one hand the number of my peers using Finale. There's a lot I like about Sibelius - like any problem it has its share of frustrations (the engraving rules/page layout options drive me mad), but it's a slick well-working program. But for my taste there's just a little too much automation at times. I guess I don't always like a program assuming something (I still get a flash of hatred when I think of the Microsoft Paperclip) Getting "under the hood" and tweaking things to exactly how you want them has always seemed more complicated in Sibelius, especially with regards to midi. Admittedly Finale is *very* far from perfect in this regard, but it's easier to get in and start changing things. So currently I'm not waiting for a reason to make the switch to Sibelius, and as a result it seems unlikely that one will come. As easy as Sibelius is to use and as much as I like it, I just far prefer Finale for creative work. It's sort of hard to explain, but a newly created empty score/file in Finale feels to me more like a "blank canvas" than does one in Sibelius. (Though I freely admit that's probably completely subjective). Colin Broom. _ http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/19780/direct/01/ Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Proficient in both seems to be a good maxim these days. I have too many clients who ask, 'and I suppose you're doing this with Sibelius'. There's no point explaining that there are horses for courses. On 27/05/2010, at 8:43 PM, dhbailey wrote: > Ray Horton wrote: >> On my side - I keep one eye open for good reasons to start the Sib learning >> curve. So far, I haven't seen them. Could still happen, but not so far. > > I hadn't seen a reason to start the sib learning curve when I initially > purchased the program and installed it and found that it was very alien to > me, being a die-hard Finale user at the time. Then one day I had an "aha!" > moment when I realized that I hadn't given Sibelius a real try, viewing > everything I tried to do in Sibelius through a finale-user filter. That > "aha!" moment came when I told myself to simply sit down with Sibelius as if > it were a brand new program that I had no previous knowledge about, do the > tutorials, read the manual, start with very simple projects and gradually > increase their complexity as I got more comfortable with the program and not > promise any results to anybody until I felt comfortable with the program. > That's the same advice I have given over the years to new Finale users on > this list and on the finale group at yahoogroups, when they would complain > about how complex the learning curve for Finale is. > > And once I started learning Sibelius using that approach I found that it > truly is a better program for lots of things, just as Finale remains the > better program for lots of things. > > And when I find one or the other program seeming to be the better program for > doing something, I try the same thing in the other program to see if it's > just that I misunderstood the necessary procedure. Sometimes that's it, and > sometimes my initial impression of something really being easier in one > program than the other remains unchanged. > > But now I am more versatile as an engraver and have two tools with which to > work when clients request one or the other. Not that I'm buried in engraving > work or anything, but I did just take on a project for $1000 which the client > has requested I work in Sibelius. And given the nature of the project that > would have been the program I would have started it in anyway, so it makes > life so much easier. > > But if all anybody on this list does is their own work, there's no need to > investigate Sibelius as long as you can do what you want in Finale. It's > only when one runs into the possibility of doing work for clients which > originates in either program that one needs to be proficient in both. > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
I bought Sibelius 6 this year and, like others, have found it incredibly difficult to use - not the fault of Sibelius, but my fault I bought Sibelius partly because of the cheap deal they were offering earlier this year and partly because I was increasingly being offered scores in Sibelius that I needed to be able to work on. I have only ever used Finale before and can work very quickly in it which means that using Sibelius slows me down considerably. There are two problems - one is my unfamiliarity with Sibelius, I don't know what to do instinctively, I have to think about it (and I haven't gone through the exercises nor read the manual thoroughly yet). The other is, as David has mentioned, I see what I do through Finale eyes and the two programmes are very different and I'm sure that David is correct in asserting that you have to treat it a brand new programme, not just as a different kind of Finale. Interestingly, I find that my students, who were introduced to both programmes at the same time, have no problems with either and no preference. Even so, even at this primitive level I can see that there are some things that Sibelius does better and some things that Finale does better. I am still waiting for David's "aha" moment - I'm sure it will come one day. Cheers, Lawrence -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Ray Horton wrote: On my side - I keep one eye open for good reasons to start the Sib learning curve. So far, I haven't seen them. Could still happen, but not so far. I hadn't seen a reason to start the sib learning curve when I initially purchased the program and installed it and found that it was very alien to me, being a die-hard Finale user at the time. Then one day I had an "aha!" moment when I realized that I hadn't given Sibelius a real try, viewing everything I tried to do in Sibelius through a finale-user filter. That "aha!" moment came when I told myself to simply sit down with Sibelius as if it were a brand new program that I had no previous knowledge about, do the tutorials, read the manual, start with very simple projects and gradually increase their complexity as I got more comfortable with the program and not promise any results to anybody until I felt comfortable with the program. That's the same advice I have given over the years to new Finale users on this list and on the finale group at yahoogroups, when they would complain about how complex the learning curve for Finale is. And once I started learning Sibelius using that approach I found that it truly is a better program for lots of things, just as Finale remains the better program for lots of things. And when I find one or the other program seeming to be the better program for doing something, I try the same thing in the other program to see if it's just that I misunderstood the necessary procedure. Sometimes that's it, and sometimes my initial impression of something really being easier in one program than the other remains unchanged. But now I am more versatile as an engraver and have two tools with which to work when clients request one or the other. Not that I'm buried in engraving work or anything, but I did just take on a project for $1000 which the client has requested I work in Sibelius. And given the nature of the project that would have been the program I would have started it in anyway, so it makes life so much easier. But if all anybody on this list does is their own work, there's no need to investigate Sibelius as long as you can do what you want in Finale. It's only when one runs into the possibility of doing work for clients which originates in either program that one needs to be proficient in both. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
On my side - I keep one eye open for good reasons to start the Sib learning curve. So far, I haven't seen them. Could still happen, but not so far. RBH James Gilbert wrote: Ray Horton wrote: - actually David H. Bailey: When I started using Sibelius more intensely, I, too would often think "that's so much easier in Finale" but most of what I thought that about turned out simply to be that I didn't understand how to do it in Sibelius yet. But certain things remain easier in Finale, like not having courtesy key signatures appear at the end of the previous line when creating key changes. But other things are easier in Sibelius, so it truly is (in my opinion) a pretty even neck-and-neck horse race between the two. For some things I fire up Finale and for others I fire up Sibelius, probably a bit more than Finale, but I haven't abandoned it. The way Sibelius does things is, to me at least, quite different than Finale and there is a bit of a learning curve involved. But, I must agree that at first something might seem easier in Finale, but it often turns out to be at least as fast, if not faster in Sibelius. When comparing Finale 2010 & Sibelius 6.2, I'd call the race pretty even and from what I see of Finale 2011, Finale isn't improving its position in the race. I too find myself using both programs, but, and I hate to say this having been using Finale since version 3.7, more & more I am using Sibelius instead of Finale. James Gilbert ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
> Ray Horton wrote: > When I started using Sibelius more intensely, I, too would > often think "that's so much easier in Finale" but most of > what I thought that about turned out simply to be that I > didn't understand how to do it in Sibelius yet. > > But certain things remain easier in Finale, like not having > courtesy key signatures appear at the end of the previous > line when creating key changes. > > But other things are easier in Sibelius, so it truly is (in > my opinion) a pretty even neck-and-neck horse race between > the two. > > For some things I fire up Finale and for others I fire up > Sibelius, probably a bit more than Finale, but I haven't > abandoned it. The way Sibelius does things is, to me at least, quite different than Finale and there is a bit of a learning curve involved. But, I must agree that at first something might seem easier in Finale, but it often turns out to be at least as fast, if not faster in Sibelius. When comparing Finale 2010 & Sibelius 6.2, I'd call the race pretty even and from what I see of Finale 2011, Finale isn't improving its position in the race. I too find myself using both programs, but, and I hate to say this having been using Finale since version 3.7, more & more I am using Sibelius instead of Finale. James Gilbert ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Ray Horton wrote: John Howell wrote: Hardly a spy! I've monitored the FinaleList much longer than I've been on the SibList, since our Department adopted Finale before being forced to drop it when our students were ready to show up with new OSX computers. And I find the different discussions very instructive. The problems discussed and the wish-lists are considerably different on the two lists. My problem is that I'm a user, but I'll never, EVER be a programmer, so even a simple comment like "make a new text style" leaves me wondering, "HOW"?!!! People who can write their own patches and invent their own workarounds forget that most of us can not. John Yeah, that was a joke, because I was pretty sure I remembered you as being the one who brought up the 5-verse limit in Sib. I'm really more of a spy on the Sib list. I got on that list when I was considering switching because of a specific problem, but that problem turned out to be non-Finale related. I bought Sib anyway, during the $80 trade-up special, but never loaded it. Although, I must say that I bite my lip on the Sib list and don't log in and gloat whenever some applicable Sib question is asked - I don't jump in and say "Are you kidding? That's so easy in Finale!" One or two of the Sib users here will do that here, on occasion, and it's not really helpful if that poster is not conversant with both programs, just as my comment on the non-existent Sib 5-verse limit was not helpful. When I started using Sibelius more intensely, I, too would often think "that's so much easier in Finale" but most of what I thought that about turned out simply to be that I didn't understand how to do it in Sibelius yet. But certain things remain easier in Finale, like not having courtesy key signatures appear at the end of the previous line when creating key changes. But other things are easier in Sibelius, so it truly is (in my opinion) a pretty even neck-and-neck horse race between the two. For some things I fire up Finale and for others I fire up Sibelius, probably a bit more than Finale, but I haven't abandoned it. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
John Howell wrote: Hardly a spy! I've monitored the FinaleList much longer than I've been on the SibList, since our Department adopted Finale before being forced to drop it when our students were ready to show up with new OSX computers. And I find the different discussions very instructive. The problems discussed and the wish-lists are considerably different on the two lists. My problem is that I'm a user, but I'll never, EVER be a programmer, so even a simple comment like "make a new text style" leaves me wondering, "HOW"?!!! People who can write their own patches and invent their own workarounds forget that most of us can not. John Yeah, that was a joke, because I was pretty sure I remembered you as being the one who brought up the 5-verse limit in Sib. I'm really more of a spy on the Sib list. I got on that list when I was considering switching because of a specific problem, but that problem turned out to be non-Finale related. I bought Sib anyway, during the $80 trade-up special, but never loaded it. Although, I must say that I bite my lip on the Sib list and don't log in and gloat whenever some applicable Sib question is asked - I don't jump in and say "Are you kidding? That's so easy in Finale!" One or two of the Sib users here will do that here, on occasion, and it's not really helpful if that poster is not conversant with both programs, just as my comment on the non-existent Sib 5-verse limit was not helpful. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
At 3:21 PM -0400 5/26/10, Ray Horton wrote: Andrew Moschou wrote: There is no limit! Who said there was? Actually, some spy sib user brought it up, I believe... Hardly a spy! I've monitored the FinaleList much longer than I've been on the SibList, since our Department adopted Finale before being forced to drop it when our students were ready to show up with new OSX computers. And I find the different discussions very instructive. The problems discussed and the wish-lists are considerably different on the two lists. My problem is that I'm a user, but I'll never, EVER be a programmer, so even a simple comment like "make a new text style" leaves me wondering, "HOW"?!!! People who can write their own patches and invent their own workarounds forget that most of us can not. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
But if you don't update to 2012 from 2011, the cost will be $169.00, not $119.00. So hopefully they offer something worthwhile to justify the $169.00. On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: > It almost seems like they should have just released all the program > "enhancements" as a service pack and then had the additional Garritan sounds > as a paid sound pack upgrade. > > *sigh* Hopefully Finale 2012 will have something worthwhile justify the > $119 > > > On May 26, 2010, at 1:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: > > > Eric Dannewitz wrote: > >> Anyone notice on the new features page they have fonts listed twice? On > the left they say new fonts then on the right they have alphanotes which > also happens to be mentioned on the new fonts page.. > >> Seems like they needed some padding there or something and had to list > fonts twice > > > > I was quite impressed with their mention of over 375 sounds from > Garritan, until I actually looked at the PDF file which lists them all and > over half of them are different percussion sounds or sound effects. Still > no alto flute or bass flute in the list, but now there's a flute section. > Still sucks if one writes music for flute choir. > > > > > > -- > > David H. Bailey > > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
It almost seems like they should have just released all the program "enhancements" as a service pack and then had the additional Garritan sounds as a paid sound pack upgrade. *sigh* Hopefully Finale 2012 will have something worthwhile justify the $119 On May 26, 2010, at 1:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: > Eric Dannewitz wrote: >> Anyone notice on the new features page they have fonts listed twice? On the >> left they say new fonts then on the right they have alphanotes which also >> happens to be mentioned on the new fonts page.. >> Seems like they needed some padding there or something and had to list fonts >> twice > > I was quite impressed with their mention of over 375 sounds from Garritan, > until I actually looked at the PDF file which lists them all and over half of > them are different percussion sounds or sound effects. Still no alto flute > or bass flute in the list, but now there's a flute section. Still sucks if > one writes music for flute choir. > > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
>"Infinite" could be useful occasionally - I have hymn files in which I >store all the various versions of a hymn's text that I have run across. >Or, when I am writing a text on a song or anthem, I may have several >different versions of the text before I am done (every time I make a >change I may store the old version). So, storing dozens of >verses/stanzas has been useful at times. Sure, but what's the limit now? I know I've gone up into the 50s before. My point is there's already room for dozens and dozens of verses, even without the change to "infinite". I wonder if we're not understanding the "infinite" claim correctly anyway. I suspect they're not actually talking about the number of verse boxes available. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
dhbailey wrote: I was quite impressed with their mention of over 375 sounds from Garritan, until I actually looked at the PDF file which lists them all and over half of them are different percussion sounds or sound effects. Still no alto flute or bass flute in the list, but now there's a flute section. Still sucks if one writes music for flute choir. Finally, (ahem) a bass trombone. The trombone section had been a 1930's community orchestra up until now. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Anyone notice on the new features page they have fonts listed twice? On the left they say new fonts then on the right they have alphanotes which also happens to be mentioned on the new fonts page.. Seems like they needed some padding there or something and had to list fonts twice I was quite impressed with their mention of over 375 sounds from Garritan, until I actually looked at the PDF file which lists them all and over half of them are different percussion sounds or sound effects. Still no alto flute or bass flute in the list, but now there's a flute section. Still sucks if one writes music for flute choir. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Anyone notice on the new features page they have fonts listed twice? On the left they say new fonts then on the right they have alphanotes which also happens to be mentioned on the new fonts page.. Seems like they needed some padding there or something and had to list fonts twice Sent from my iPad > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Andrew Moschou wrote: There is no limit! Who said there was? Actually, some spy sib user brought it up, I believe... RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
There is no limit! (Actually maybe the limit is several thousand.) The shipping house style and manuscript papers (templates) contain only five, but it only takes a moment to create as many more lyric lines as needed (just create new text styles and define their default positions). They can then be saved in custom house styles and manuscript papers. Andrew On 27 May 2010 04:10, Ray Horton wrote: > Mark D Lew wrote: > >> On May 26, 2010, at 9:22 AM, John Howell wrote: >> >> From what I can see, the new lyric "features" are more like playing >>> catchup with Sibelius, although I can't make a side-by-side comparison. >>> Infinite verses might better than Sibelius' limit of 5, for people doing >>> hymn books. And the automatic melisma slurs MIGHT come in handy, if they >>> can be turned off. But Sibelius can already switch fonts and sizes almost >>> as easily. And ignoring punctuation and quotation marks might be a really >>> tiny improvement, but handling verse numbers would be an even better one. >>> >> >> I don't understand the point of infinite verses, other than as a marketing >> gimmick. I surely agree that five is too few, but what's the current finite >> limit in Finale? Isn't it well over a hundred? It's enough that I've never >> run out, even using them liberally. >> >> The improvement for punctuation isn't tiny for me. I like that a lot. Of >> all the new lyric features announced, it's the one that would make the most >> difference to me. >> >> mdl >> > > Five is ridiculously too small a limit! Many hymns have more than five - > check an Amish hymnal sometimes! We may not want to read more than five in > one staff, on _average_, but a modern notation program has to be able to > handle more than the average. > > > "Infinite" could be useful occasionally - I have hymn files in which I > store all the various versions of a hymn's text that I have run across. Or, > when I am writing a text on a song or anthem, I may have several different > versions of the text before I am done (every time I make a change I may > store the old version). So, storing dozens of verses/stanzas has been > useful at times. > > > Raymond Horton > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Sibelius lyrics compared (was RE: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?)
At 1:31 PM -0400 5/26/10, James Gilbert wrote: > Sibelius doesn't actually have a limit of 5 verses. Sibelius treats lyrics (and many elements) as text styles. What Sibelius does have is a default of 5 defined lyric text styles. You can define, quite easily, extra lyric styles. Thanks, James. There are MANY things in Sibelius that can be taken beyond the defaults, as I'm sure there are in any complex program. The problem is that you have to know (a) that you CAN do them, and then (b) HOW to do them. In the case of lyrics, it isn't a matter of style, but one of placement on the page, which is easy and automatic for the first 5 verses, but I never figured out how to add a 6th. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Mark D Lew wrote: On May 26, 2010, at 9:22 AM, John Howell wrote: From what I can see, the new lyric "features" are more like playing catchup with Sibelius, although I can't make a side-by-side comparison. Infinite verses might better than Sibelius' limit of 5, for people doing hymn books. And the automatic melisma slurs MIGHT come in handy, if they can be turned off. But Sibelius can already switch fonts and sizes almost as easily. And ignoring punctuation and quotation marks might be a really tiny improvement, but handling verse numbers would be an even better one. I don't understand the point of infinite verses, other than as a marketing gimmick. I surely agree that five is too few, but what's the current finite limit in Finale? Isn't it well over a hundred? It's enough that I've never run out, even using them liberally. The improvement for punctuation isn't tiny for me. I like that a lot. Of all the new lyric features announced, it's the one that would make the most difference to me. mdl Five is ridiculously too small a limit! Many hymns have more than five - check an Amish hymnal sometimes! We may not want to read more than five in one staff, on _average_, but a modern notation program has to be able to handle more than the average. "Infinite" could be useful occasionally - I have hymn files in which I store all the various versions of a hymn's text that I have run across. Or, when I am writing a text on a song or anthem, I may have several different versions of the text before I am done (every time I make a change I may store the old version). So, storing dozens of verses/stanzas has been useful at times. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Sibelius lyrics compared (was RE: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?)
> From what I can see, the new lyric "features" are more like playing > catchup with Sibelius, although I can't make a side-by-side > comparison. Infinite verses might better than Sibelius' limit of 5, > for people doing hymn books. And the automatic melisma slurs MIGHT > come in handy, if they can be turned off. But Sibelius can already > switch fonts and sizes almost as easily. And ignoring punctuation > and quotation marks might be a really tiny improvement, but handling > verse numbers would be an even better one. Sibelius doesn't actually have a limit of 5 verses. Sibelius treats lyrics (and many elements) as text styles. What Sibelius does have is a default of 5 defined lyric text styles. You can define, quite easily, extra lyric styles. In addition to the 5 lyrics styles, there are also lyric chorus and a lyrics above the staff style available, either of which can be adjusted to be a sixth or seventh verse. I do a lot with hymns and find Sibelius to be a tad better than Finale, but I'm not thrilled with the alignment of verse numbers and lyrics at the beginning of a system in either program. Given the way the current melisma plug-in works in Finale and Sibelius, I sometimes find that doing it manually is more reliable. James Gilbert www.JamesGilbertMusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
On May 26, 2010, at 9:22 AM, John Howell wrote: From what I can see, the new lyric "features" are more like playing catchup with Sibelius, although I can't make a side-by-side comparison. Infinite verses might better than Sibelius' limit of 5, for people doing hymn books. And the automatic melisma slurs MIGHT come in handy, if they can be turned off. But Sibelius can already switch fonts and sizes almost as easily. And ignoring punctuation and quotation marks might be a really tiny improvement, but handling verse numbers would be an even better one. I don't understand the point of infinite verses, other than as a marketing gimmick. I surely agree that five is too few, but what's the current finite limit in Finale? Isn't it well over a hundred? It's enough that I've never run out, even using them liberally. The improvement for punctuation isn't tiny for me. I like that a lot. Of all the new lyric features announced, it's the one that would make the most difference to me. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
At 6:54 PM -0500 5/25/10, Randolph Peters wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: I just heard 2011 for Mac is dropping support for OSX 10.4. It installs on 10.5 or 10.6 only. I guess that means that there is even MORE pressure on them to develop better importation of older files. According to MakeMusic, 2011 has no changes from the previous version in file importation and translation abilities. Don't forget that this is the company that was a YEAR LATE in having a version that would run on OS X in the first place, which forced our Music Department to drop Finale and adopt Sibelius. Their strategic planning folks don't seem to be the brightest bulbs on the tree! From what I can see, the new lyric "features" are more like playing catchup with Sibelius, although I can't make a side-by-side comparison. Infinite verses might better than Sibelius' limit of 5, for people doing hymn books. And the automatic melisma slurs MIGHT come in handy, if they can be turned off. But Sibelius can already switch fonts and sizes almost as easily. And ignoring punctuation and quotation marks might be a really tiny improvement, but handling verse numbers would be an even better one. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
On May 25, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do choral music? Well, speaking only for myself I do like the option to have spacing ignore punctuation. That's something I routinely fix in every piece, so it'll save me that step. I also think it would be helpful to select multiple syllables and nudge them all at once. Both of those are improvements for me, but not enough to warrant an upgrade. The bits about about melisma spacing and spacing at the start of a measure, which others seem very excited about, make no difference to me since I would never space music based on lyrics anyway. I also don't care about spacing automatically adjusting while I type in score either, since I leave all the auto-updaes turned off. If default spacing of lyrics is improved, that's a plus, but the video's example cited for "overall, spacing automatically looks better" didn't impress me, since the "after" result still wasn't how I'd prefer it. It follows I standard that I don't like (ie, flush- lefting any syllable on more than one note). It's not clear whether that's just an option that I can choose differently or if it's part of the improvement. The video doesn't mention either of the things that would most interest me about lyrics, which leads me to believe they haven't been addressed. First, like everyone here, I want access to Unicode, so I can do IPA, among other things. Second, I want to be able to edit hyphen position, including suppressing a hyphen from the page without losing it from the lyrics text. Hyphen positioning and appearance in v2010 has serious flaws. I can live with Finale getting things wrong as long as there's a way for me to tweak it, but with lyric hyphens you can't tweak them, so that's a serious problem. If they can improve their default positioning, that's great, but what I really want is to be able to adjust them if I don't like where Finale has put them. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Christopher Smith wrote: > I just heard 2011 for Mac is dropping support for OSX 10.4. It installs on > 10.5 or 10.6 only. > I guess that means that there is even MORE pressure on them to develop better > importation of older files. According to MakeMusic, 2011 has no changes from the previous version in file importation and translation abilities. I recommend that anyone who still has version 2008 should keep it in working order so that they may save old files in that version as an intermediary step. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
I just heard 2011 for Mac is dropping support for OSX 10.4. It installs on 10.5 or 10.6 only. I guess that means that there is even MORE pressure on them to develop better importation of older files. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Lora Crighton wrote: --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Christopher Smith wrote: Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do choral music? After many years of not bothering with the upgrades - I have 2006 - I'm seriously thinking about it now. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale On the other hand, those who have not upgraded in several years have missed working with the benefits of the newer versions. For just one example, I had to go back to Finale 2008 to edit one file, and I was amazed at how clunky it felt to not have the expressions organized as in 2010 (may have been a 2009 improvement). And, you will have a steeper learning curve. If lyrics are significantly improved in 2011, that will easily be worth the money. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
--- On Tue, 5/25/10, dhbailey wrote: > From: dhbailey > Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering? > To: finale@shsu.edu > Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 10:52 AM > Lora Crighton wrote: > > --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Christopher Smith > wrote: > >> Click on the video to see how lyric entry and > spacing is > >> improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys > who do > >> choral music? > >> > > > > After many years of not bothering with the upgrades - > I have 2006 - I'm seriously thinking about it now. > > Upgrading 5 versions will most likely make this a great > upgrade for you from 2006. > > As an annual upgrade from 2010 for $120, it's rather meager > pickings for my notational needs from all that I can see. > The annual upgrades have never seemed worth it to me, and I was doing every 2 years for a while - I forget what put me off 2008, but I decided I didn't want it. Recently I haven't been doing anything that I needed to share files, so being years behind wasn't a problem, and none of the new features said "buy me" until now. If the lyric spacing works well, it will save me lots of time, because most of what I use finale for is scores for my church choir. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Phillips, Justin wrote: Hi Ryan, We do run discount pricing promotions for 2009 and 2010 users upgrading to Finale 2011. If you did not receive an email this morning with this information, definitely contact customer support at the link below and we can get you signed up to receive special offers for discounted pricing. http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Christopher, Thanks for the list. I saw this on the Finale forum as well. I'll take a look at those items and will confirm or deny their existence in 2011. Thank you for offering to do that, Justin. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
David W. Fenton wrote: On 25 May 2010 at 11:27, Ryan wrote: I would be much more inclined to purchase 2011 if they offered a tiered pricing structure. The if you're upgrading from 2010, you pay a lower price than someone upgrading from 2009, etc etc. I must be missing something. If you're upgrading from 2010, you pay $119.95, and from all earlier versions, $169.95. That's tiered pricing. It may not be the pricing *you'd* like, but it's exactly what you've asked for. And if you order now, it's only $99.95. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Hi Ryan, We do run discount pricing promotions for 2009 and 2010 users upgrading to Finale 2011. If you did not receive an email this morning with this information, definitely contact customer support at the link below and we can get you signed up to receive special offers for discounted pricing. http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Christopher, Thanks for the list. I saw this on the Finale forum as well. I'll take a look at those items and will confirm or deny their existence in 2011. Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. 7615 Golden Triangle Drive, Suite M Eden Prairie, MN 55344-3848 Direct: (952) 818-3819 Sales: (800) 843-2066 Technical Support: (952) 937-9703 Fax: (952) 937-9760 -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:42 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering? Thanks for pointing that out. I missed that. But, you are correct in that it's not the pricing *I'd* like, which is why I won't be getting this update. On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:36 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: > On 25 May 2010 at 11:27, Ryan wrote: > > > I would be much more inclined to purchase 2011 if they offered a > > tiered pricing structure. The if you're upgrading from 2010, you pay a > > lower price than someone upgrading from 2009, etc etc. > > I must be missing something. If you're upgrading from 2010, you pay > $119.95, and from all earlier versions, $169.95. That's tiered > pricing. > > It may not be the pricing *you'd* like, but it's exactly what you've > asked for. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Thanks for pointing that out. I missed that. But, you are correct in that it's not the pricing *I'd* like, which is why I won't be getting this update. On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:36 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: > On 25 May 2010 at 11:27, Ryan wrote: > > > I would be much more inclined to purchase 2011 if they offered a > > tiered pricing structure. The if you're upgrading from 2010, you pay a > > lower price than someone upgrading from 2009, etc etc. > > I must be missing something. If you're upgrading from 2010, you pay > $119.95, and from all earlier versions, $169.95. That's tiered > pricing. > > It may not be the pricing *you'd* like, but it's exactly what you've > asked for. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
On 25 May 2010 at 11:27, Ryan wrote: > I would be much more inclined to purchase 2011 if they offered a > tiered pricing structure. The if you're upgrading from 2010, you pay a > lower price than someone upgrading from 2009, etc etc. I must be missing something. If you're upgrading from 2010, you pay $119.95, and from all earlier versions, $169.95. That's tiered pricing. It may not be the pricing *you'd* like, but it's exactly what you've asked for. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
I would be much more inclined to purchase 2011 if they offered a tiered pricing structure. The if you're upgrading from 2010, you pay a lower price than someone upgrading from 2009, etc etc. On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:52 AM, dhbailey < dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote: > Lora Crighton wrote: > >> --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Christopher Smith >> wrote: >> >>> Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is >>> improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do >>> choral music? >>> >>> >> After many years of not bothering with the upgrades - I have 2006 - I'm >> seriously thinking about it now. >> > > Upgrading 5 versions will most likely make this a great upgrade for you > from 2006. > > As an annual upgrade from 2010 for $120, it's rather meager pickings for my > notational needs from all that I can see. > > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Lora Crighton wrote: --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Christopher Smith wrote: Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do choral music? After many years of not bothering with the upgrades - I have 2006 - I'm seriously thinking about it now. Upgrading 5 versions will most likely make this a great upgrade for you from 2006. As an annual upgrade from 2010 for $120, it's rather meager pickings for my notational needs from all that I can see. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
--- On Tue, 5/25/10, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is > improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do > choral music? > After many years of not bothering with the upgrades - I have 2006 - I'm seriously thinking about it now. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Christopher Smith wrote: Seems like they have a new version ready to go. http://finalemusic.com/Finale/Default.aspx Dealing with lyrics and staves might be easier, plus improved pickup measures. I hope that means bug fixes. Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do choral music? I've watched it and I find it impressing that is is *finally* solved. Now I'm waiting for the expression assignment lists to be fully functional again. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?
Seems like they have a new version ready to go. http://finalemusic.com/Finale/Default.aspx Dealing with lyrics and staves might be easier, plus improved pickup measures. I hope that means bug fixes. Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do choral music? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
