Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
In some editions, an acci above means it was an editorial acci and not in the original source. I've not seen it in any other context. Of course, on the countless occasions when I pencil them in, they often end up there. On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > Fair enough. How about full sized accidentals above? > On Nov 30, 2014 12:08 AM, "Robert Patterson" > wrote: > > > For me, nothing tiny please. The notes have already gotten small enough > as > > it is, and they seem to be getting smaller by the month. I can think of > > three situations that demand cautionaries. In all three cases, I think > they > > should appear as normal accis without parens. > > > > 1. If the first note of a bar is reverting to the key signature after > being > > altered in the previous bar (especially on the last note). The further > into > > the new bar you go, the less mandatory the courtesy acci becomes. > > > > 2. (As I mentioned in my previous post) if the passage is not in the key > of > > the key signature, all chromatic alterations should be shown relative to > > the sounding key of the passage, even if they are in the key sig. (This > > comes up a lot in standard rep, and I think the old 19th cent. engravers > > were pretty good about doing it. I haven't made a project of verifying > that > > though.) > > > > 3. If there is a cross relation between voices (i.e., B-flat in one voice > > and B-nat in another). > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Raymond Horton < > horton.raym...@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > New wrinkle in this heated conversation: I prefer tiny cautionary > > > accidentals above the note, does anyone else? Avoids the parentheses > > > questions, but not as quick to apply in Finale. > > > So I don't use them much. In the big project I just finished, which > > was > > > played by good high school strings with a few rehearsals and pros with > > next > > > to none, I freely used parenthesized cautionary accis - frequently. > > > My cent and 1/2. > > > On Nov 29, 2014 8:54 PM, "Robert Patterson" < > rob...@robertgpatterson.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > My perspective is that if the key of the moment does not match the > key > > > > signature, any chromatic alterations within the key of the moment > > should > > > be > > > > shown even if they are already in the key sig. Personally I don't > think > > > > parens are necessary but I suppose they don't hurt anything. For > > example, > > > > if the key sig is G-Major, but the piece has modulated to D-Major, if > > > there > > > > is a V7/IV chord (in D-Maj) that calls for C-nat, the C-nat should be > > > > shown, irrespective of the fact that there is no C-sharp in the key > > sig. > > > > > > > > I'm a horn player. For nearly all the standard rep music we don't see > > key > > > > signatures, so for music that has them I tend to pencil in nearly > every > > > > accidental anyway. But I really believe relying on a key signature to > > > show > > > > chromatic alterations for a passage not in the key of the key > signature > > > is > > > > where you are mostly likely to trip up a sight-reader. > > > > > > > > (FWIW: Instead of using key sigs we horn players play in keys. I've > > > played > > > > Auf Dem Strom in the original E, in D, and I've seen a version in C. > > But > > > I > > > > just play the same part, written in C Major, in whichever key the > > singer > > > > wants.) > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Chuck Israels > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > They are called courtesy accidentals. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a little courtesy in speaking about your point of view and > > > > > experience vs that of others would be welcome. > > > > > > > > > > My experience with tonal but often modulating music played by > highly > > > > > educated and able musicians differs from yours. That doesn't lead > me > > to > > > > > denigrate your perspective nor to invite expletives in discussing > > which > > > > > practices might work better in different circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > I will speak for myself: when I am playing in Db and there are > > passages > > > > > with D naturals, I appreciate a courtesy accidental when the > tonality > > > of > > > > > the moment later demands a Db, and I don't care if it lacks > > > parentheses. > > > > So > > > > > do many musicians with whom I work. That practice can help prevent > > > > > mistakes when it is used consistently. > > > > > > > > > > There may be a number of considerations that argue for or against > > this > > > > > practice. What seems clear to me is that it is working well under > the > > > > > conditions I live in. > > > > > > > > > > That's all I'll say about it at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Craig Parmerlee < > cr...@parmerlee.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > ___
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Fair enough. How about full sized accidentals above? On Nov 30, 2014 12:08 AM, "Robert Patterson" wrote: > For me, nothing tiny please. The notes have already gotten small enough as > it is, and they seem to be getting smaller by the month. I can think of > three situations that demand cautionaries. In all three cases, I think they > should appear as normal accis without parens. > > 1. If the first note of a bar is reverting to the key signature after being > altered in the previous bar (especially on the last note). The further into > the new bar you go, the less mandatory the courtesy acci becomes. > > 2. (As I mentioned in my previous post) if the passage is not in the key of > the key signature, all chromatic alterations should be shown relative to > the sounding key of the passage, even if they are in the key sig. (This > comes up a lot in standard rep, and I think the old 19th cent. engravers > were pretty good about doing it. I haven't made a project of verifying that > though.) > > 3. If there is a cross relation between voices (i.e., B-flat in one voice > and B-nat in another). > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Raymond Horton > > wrote: > > > New wrinkle in this heated conversation: I prefer tiny cautionary > > accidentals above the note, does anyone else? Avoids the parentheses > > questions, but not as quick to apply in Finale. > > So I don't use them much. In the big project I just finished, which > was > > played by good high school strings with a few rehearsals and pros with > next > > to none, I freely used parenthesized cautionary accis - frequently. > > My cent and 1/2. > > On Nov 29, 2014 8:54 PM, "Robert Patterson" > > > wrote: > > > > > My perspective is that if the key of the moment does not match the key > > > signature, any chromatic alterations within the key of the moment > should > > be > > > shown even if they are already in the key sig. Personally I don't think > > > parens are necessary but I suppose they don't hurt anything. For > example, > > > if the key sig is G-Major, but the piece has modulated to D-Major, if > > there > > > is a V7/IV chord (in D-Maj) that calls for C-nat, the C-nat should be > > > shown, irrespective of the fact that there is no C-sharp in the key > sig. > > > > > > I'm a horn player. For nearly all the standard rep music we don't see > key > > > signatures, so for music that has them I tend to pencil in nearly every > > > accidental anyway. But I really believe relying on a key signature to > > show > > > chromatic alterations for a passage not in the key of the key signature > > is > > > where you are mostly likely to trip up a sight-reader. > > > > > > (FWIW: Instead of using key sigs we horn players play in keys. I've > > played > > > Auf Dem Strom in the original E, in D, and I've seen a version in C. > But > > I > > > just play the same part, written in C Major, in whichever key the > singer > > > wants.) > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Chuck Israels > > > wrote: > > > > > > > They are called courtesy accidentals. > > > > > > > > Perhaps a little courtesy in speaking about your point of view and > > > > experience vs that of others would be welcome. > > > > > > > > My experience with tonal but often modulating music played by highly > > > > educated and able musicians differs from yours. That doesn't lead me > to > > > > denigrate your perspective nor to invite expletives in discussing > which > > > > practices might work better in different circumstances. > > > > > > > > I will speak for myself: when I am playing in Db and there are > passages > > > > with D naturals, I appreciate a courtesy accidental when the tonality > > of > > > > the moment later demands a Db, and I don't care if it lacks > > parentheses. > > > So > > > > do many musicians with whom I work. That practice can help prevent > > > > mistakes when it is used consistently. > > > > > > > > There may be a number of considerations that argue for or against > this > > > > practice. What seems clear to me is that it is working well under the > > > > conditions I live in. > > > > > > > > That's all I'll say about it at the moment. > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Craig Parmerlee > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Finale mailing list > > > > Finale@shsu.edu > > > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > > > > > ___ > > > Finale mailing list > > > Finale@shsu.edu > > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > https://lists.shsu.edu/ma
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
For me, nothing tiny please. The notes have already gotten small enough as it is, and they seem to be getting smaller by the month. I can think of three situations that demand cautionaries. In all three cases, I think they should appear as normal accis without parens. 1. If the first note of a bar is reverting to the key signature after being altered in the previous bar (especially on the last note). The further into the new bar you go, the less mandatory the courtesy acci becomes. 2. (As I mentioned in my previous post) if the passage is not in the key of the key signature, all chromatic alterations should be shown relative to the sounding key of the passage, even if they are in the key sig. (This comes up a lot in standard rep, and I think the old 19th cent. engravers were pretty good about doing it. I haven't made a project of verifying that though.) 3. If there is a cross relation between voices (i.e., B-flat in one voice and B-nat in another). On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > New wrinkle in this heated conversation: I prefer tiny cautionary > accidentals above the note, does anyone else? Avoids the parentheses > questions, but not as quick to apply in Finale. > So I don't use them much. In the big project I just finished, which was > played by good high school strings with a few rehearsals and pros with next > to none, I freely used parenthesized cautionary accis - frequently. > My cent and 1/2. > On Nov 29, 2014 8:54 PM, "Robert Patterson" > wrote: > > > My perspective is that if the key of the moment does not match the key > > signature, any chromatic alterations within the key of the moment should > be > > shown even if they are already in the key sig. Personally I don't think > > parens are necessary but I suppose they don't hurt anything. For example, > > if the key sig is G-Major, but the piece has modulated to D-Major, if > there > > is a V7/IV chord (in D-Maj) that calls for C-nat, the C-nat should be > > shown, irrespective of the fact that there is no C-sharp in the key sig. > > > > I'm a horn player. For nearly all the standard rep music we don't see key > > signatures, so for music that has them I tend to pencil in nearly every > > accidental anyway. But I really believe relying on a key signature to > show > > chromatic alterations for a passage not in the key of the key signature > is > > where you are mostly likely to trip up a sight-reader. > > > > (FWIW: Instead of using key sigs we horn players play in keys. I've > played > > Auf Dem Strom in the original E, in D, and I've seen a version in C. But > I > > just play the same part, written in C Major, in whichever key the singer > > wants.) > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Chuck Israels > > wrote: > > > > > They are called courtesy accidentals. > > > > > > Perhaps a little courtesy in speaking about your point of view and > > > experience vs that of others would be welcome. > > > > > > My experience with tonal but often modulating music played by highly > > > educated and able musicians differs from yours. That doesn't lead me to > > > denigrate your perspective nor to invite expletives in discussing which > > > practices might work better in different circumstances. > > > > > > I will speak for myself: when I am playing in Db and there are passages > > > with D naturals, I appreciate a courtesy accidental when the tonality > of > > > the moment later demands a Db, and I don't care if it lacks > parentheses. > > So > > > do many musicians with whom I work. That practice can help prevent > > > mistakes when it is used consistently. > > > > > > There may be a number of considerations that argue for or against this > > > practice. What seems clear to me is that it is working well under the > > > conditions I live in. > > > > > > That's all I'll say about it at the moment. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Craig Parmerlee > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > ___ > > > Finale mailing list > > > Finale@shsu.edu > > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
New wrinkle in this heated conversation: I prefer tiny cautionary accidentals above the note, does anyone else? Avoids the parentheses questions, but not as quick to apply in Finale. So I don't use them much. In the big project I just finished, which was played by good high school strings with a few rehearsals and pros with next to none, I freely used parenthesized cautionary accis - frequently. My cent and 1/2. On Nov 29, 2014 8:54 PM, "Robert Patterson" wrote: > My perspective is that if the key of the moment does not match the key > signature, any chromatic alterations within the key of the moment should be > shown even if they are already in the key sig. Personally I don't think > parens are necessary but I suppose they don't hurt anything. For example, > if the key sig is G-Major, but the piece has modulated to D-Major, if there > is a V7/IV chord (in D-Maj) that calls for C-nat, the C-nat should be > shown, irrespective of the fact that there is no C-sharp in the key sig. > > I'm a horn player. For nearly all the standard rep music we don't see key > signatures, so for music that has them I tend to pencil in nearly every > accidental anyway. But I really believe relying on a key signature to show > chromatic alterations for a passage not in the key of the key signature is > where you are mostly likely to trip up a sight-reader. > > (FWIW: Instead of using key sigs we horn players play in keys. I've played > Auf Dem Strom in the original E, in D, and I've seen a version in C. But I > just play the same part, written in C Major, in whichever key the singer > wants.) > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Chuck Israels > wrote: > > > They are called courtesy accidentals. > > > > Perhaps a little courtesy in speaking about your point of view and > > experience vs that of others would be welcome. > > > > My experience with tonal but often modulating music played by highly > > educated and able musicians differs from yours. That doesn't lead me to > > denigrate your perspective nor to invite expletives in discussing which > > practices might work better in different circumstances. > > > > I will speak for myself: when I am playing in Db and there are passages > > with D naturals, I appreciate a courtesy accidental when the tonality of > > the moment later demands a Db, and I don't care if it lacks parentheses. > So > > do many musicians with whom I work. That practice can help prevent > > mistakes when it is used consistently. > > > > There may be a number of considerations that argue for or against this > > practice. What seems clear to me is that it is working well under the > > conditions I live in. > > > > That's all I'll say about it at the moment. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Craig Parmerlee > > wrote: > > > > > > the > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
My perspective is that if the key of the moment does not match the key signature, any chromatic alterations within the key of the moment should be shown even if they are already in the key sig. Personally I don't think parens are necessary but I suppose they don't hurt anything. For example, if the key sig is G-Major, but the piece has modulated to D-Major, if there is a V7/IV chord (in D-Maj) that calls for C-nat, the C-nat should be shown, irrespective of the fact that there is no C-sharp in the key sig. I'm a horn player. For nearly all the standard rep music we don't see key signatures, so for music that has them I tend to pencil in nearly every accidental anyway. But I really believe relying on a key signature to show chromatic alterations for a passage not in the key of the key signature is where you are mostly likely to trip up a sight-reader. (FWIW: Instead of using key sigs we horn players play in keys. I've played Auf Dem Strom in the original E, in D, and I've seen a version in C. But I just play the same part, written in C Major, in whichever key the singer wants.) On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: > They are called courtesy accidentals. > > Perhaps a little courtesy in speaking about your point of view and > experience vs that of others would be welcome. > > My experience with tonal but often modulating music played by highly > educated and able musicians differs from yours. That doesn't lead me to > denigrate your perspective nor to invite expletives in discussing which > practices might work better in different circumstances. > > I will speak for myself: when I am playing in Db and there are passages > with D naturals, I appreciate a courtesy accidental when the tonality of > the moment later demands a Db, and I don't care if it lacks parentheses. So > do many musicians with whom I work. That practice can help prevent > mistakes when it is used consistently. > > There may be a number of considerations that argue for or against this > practice. What seems clear to me is that it is working well under the > conditions I live in. > > That's all I'll say about it at the moment. > > Chuck > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Craig Parmerlee > wrote: > > > > the > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
They are called courtesy accidentals. Perhaps a little courtesy in speaking about your point of view and experience vs that of others would be welcome. My experience with tonal but often modulating music played by highly educated and able musicians differs from yours. That doesn't lead me to denigrate your perspective nor to invite expletives in discussing which practices might work better in different circumstances. I will speak for myself: when I am playing in Db and there are passages with D naturals, I appreciate a courtesy accidental when the tonality of the moment later demands a Db, and I don't care if it lacks parentheses. So do many musicians with whom I work. That practice can help prevent mistakes when it is used consistently. There may be a number of considerations that argue for or against this practice. What seems clear to me is that it is working well under the conditions I live in. That's all I'll say about it at the moment. Chuck Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > the ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
On 11/29/2014 2:04 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > >> Also, as Chris says, parentheses make accidentals more difficult to read. > > The opposite of my experience. > When someone has brought some unknown Sondheim to an audition, there are > better things to do than to keep skipping back in the measure to see why the > Db I was about to play has an accidental on it. I register the parentheses as > a ‘check’. > >> I also think the "looking back" problem is overstated. > > Not from me. I find a big difference in reading one over the other. > I don’t play either wrong, but then I’m used to sight-reading all sorts of > flysh*t that no-one would ever recommend as good practice. > That's how it works for me. I figure it is the musician's responsibility to know what key they are in and play accordingly. I don't need the cautionaries and I only put them (and one want to see them) in cases where a person (me) is likely to make a mistake. But the last thing any arranger should want to do is INDUCE a mistake when a mistake otherwise wasn't going to happen. Terrible practice, IMHO, to throw in cautionaries without parentheses. Inexcusable. If you are worried about clutter, leave the &^%^& things out altogether. If stuff is so atonal that there are accidentals everywhere, that's exactly what the keyless notation is for. Upgrade to 2014 and do the job properly. I should note that I occasionally play in a concert band or other settings where it is necessary to share a stand -- sometimes three players on a stand. I may not have a good enough look at the music to see exactly what is beside the note. If there is an accidental, then I will guess based on the context and be right > 95% of the time unless the engraver threw in a gratuitous accidental without parentheses. Even if I don't have a good look I can usually tell if there are parentheses. And likewise, when marking parts, if you have to write in your own cautionaries in order to not make a mistake, please write them ABOVE or BELOW the note so it is obvious it is a reminder and not a real accidental. And for those who say "it must be OK because nobody has every complained about it", well, I have never complained about it either, I just cuss under my breath at the writer, so I don't think it is safe to judge based on the feedback. It is my job to play the music as well as I can, even if the person doing the notation created a real mess. And by real mess, that certainly isn't limited to cautionary accidentals without parentheses. That is just a problem that is very easy to avoid. The bigger problems I see are very poorly written rhythms and lack of structural clues. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Over the years I have found "damn if you do and damn if you don't" the piece you wrote for pro players may get played by a lesser experienced player at some point.The truth is you really never know. Make the decision you feel is right and match on, I say.Musically,Terry From: Lawrence To: "" Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16 Craig, I agree entirely Cheers, Lawrence Sent from my iPhone > On 29 Nov 2014, at 5:32 am, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > >> On 11/28/2014 10:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >> Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals >> either. > > Really? > > That surely isn't my experience. I don't recall seeing any recently > published music from a respected publishing house that does it that way. > > I find that a non-parenthesized unnecessary accidental causes more > errors than it avoids. If the player's eyesight isn't perfect or the > player is otherwise distracted, the presence of "something" tells the > player that it sure isn't what the key signature indicates. The player > may have to make a quick guess as to what the accidental most likely is > -- and of course will be wrong 100% of the time because it wasn't a > necessary marking. I cuss the engraver every time they do that to me. > > With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. > Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read > accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
> Surely this issue has something to do with the context. Highly chromatic > music requires more frequent courtesy accidentals, and once you reach a > certain point, parentheses simply become needless clutter. Absolutely. Complex or non-tonal or non-ET is a different case. But these things are not often sight-read at the coal-face. Similarly, in a pop context a chart in F major with a chord of A# doesn’t bother me (much..) because it’s par for the course. > Also, as Chris says, parentheses make accidentals more difficult to read. The opposite of my experience. When someone has brought some unknown Sondheim to an audition, there are better things to do than to keep skipping back in the measure to see why the Db I was about to play has an accidental on it. I register the parentheses as a ‘check’. > I also think the "looking back" problem is overstated. Not from me. I find a big difference in reading one over the other. I don’t play either wrong, but then I’m used to sight-reading all sorts of flysh*t that no-one would ever recommend as good practice. > I'm with Michael — this is largely a non-issue. It may cause annoyance to > some but, unlike a missing courtesy, it doesn't generally cause mistakes. That is a pretty low bar in most contexts. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
I use them consistently without parentheses and get no complaints and few errors from musicians reading my music. Occasionally, parentheses clarify context, but generally they take up precious space. Chuck Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > > Surely this issue has something to do with the context. Highly chromatic > music requires more frequent courtesy accidentals, and once you reach a > certain point, parentheses simply become needless clutter. Also, as Chris > says, parentheses make accidentals more difficult to read. > > I also think the "looking back" problem is overstated. I'm with Michael — > this is largely a non-issue. It may cause annoyance to some but, unlike a > missing courtesy, it doesn't generally cause mistakes. > > Cheers, > > - DJA > - > WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org > >> On Nov 29, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Michael wrote: >> >> I have an extensive library of music from many different publishers. I can’t >> find any consensus over whether or not to put parentheses on cautionary >> accidentals: some do, some don’t. >> >> As a player (pianist who has to sight-read a lot, accompanying opera), I >> prefer not to see the parentheses, for reasons others have already given. >> When I’m sight-reading at speed I often don’t notice if a given accidental >> is a necessary or a cautionary one: I see a D-flat, play a D-flat and move >> on. >> >> As a conductor I’ve never had problems with players stumbling over >> cautionary accidentals, with or without parentheses, but I’ve often had >> players make mistakes through the lack of cautionary accidentals at >> appropriate places. >> >> ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
My experience with performers has been the parenthesis before a cautionary accidental prevents mistakes. Maybe it's the ability of the reader but I can predict a mistake when not there. Vivian Vivian Adelberg Rudow, ASCAP award winner every year since 1987 > On Nov 29, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Michael wrote: > > I have an extensive library of music from many different publishers. I can’t > find any consensus over whether or not to put parentheses on cautionary > accidentals: some do, some don’t. > > As a player (pianist who has to sight-read a lot, accompanying opera), I > prefer not to see the parentheses, for reasons others have already given. > When I’m sight-reading at speed I often don’t notice if a given accidental is > a necessary or a cautionary one: I see a D-flat, play a D-flat and move on. > > As a conductor I’ve never had problems with players stumbling over cautionary > accidentals, with or without parentheses, but I’ve often had players make > mistakes through the lack of cautionary accidentals at appropriate places. > > > > >> On 29 Nov 2014, at 06:32, Craig Parmerlee wrote: >> >> On 11/28/2014 10:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >>> Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals >>> either. >> >> Really? >> >> That surely isn't my experience. I don't recall seeing any recently >> published music from a respected publishing house that does it that way. >> >> I find that a non-parenthesized unnecessary accidental causes more >> errors than it avoids. If the player's eyesight isn't perfect or the >> player is otherwise distracted, the presence of "something" tells the >> player that it sure isn't what the key signature indicates. The player >> may have to make a quick guess as to what the accidental most likely is >> -- and of course will be wrong 100% of the time because it wasn't a >> necessary marking. I cuss the engraver every time they do that to me. >> >> With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. >> Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read >> accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Surely this issue has something to do with the context. Highly chromatic music requires more frequent courtesy accidentals, and once you reach a certain point, parentheses simply become needless clutter. Also, as Chris says, parentheses make accidentals more difficult to read. I also think the "looking back" problem is overstated. I'm with Michael — this is largely a non-issue. It may cause annoyance to some but, unlike a missing courtesy, it doesn't generally cause mistakes. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On Nov 29, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Michael wrote: > I have an extensive library of music from many different publishers. I can’t > find any consensus over whether or not to put parentheses on cautionary > accidentals: some do, some don’t. > > As a player (pianist who has to sight-read a lot, accompanying opera), I > prefer not to see the parentheses, for reasons others have already given. > When I’m sight-reading at speed I often don’t notice if a given accidental is > a necessary or a cautionary one: I see a D-flat, play a D-flat and move on. > > As a conductor I’ve never had problems with players stumbling over cautionary > accidentals, with or without parentheses, but I’ve often had players make > mistakes through the lack of cautionary accidentals at appropriate places. > > > > >> On 29 Nov 2014, at 06:32, Craig Parmerlee wrote: >> >> On 11/28/2014 10:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >>> Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals >>> either. >> >> Really? >> >> That surely isn't my experience. I don't recall seeing any recently >> published music from a respected publishing house that does it that way. >> >> I find that a non-parenthesized unnecessary accidental causes more >> errors than it avoids. If the player's eyesight isn't perfect or the >> player is otherwise distracted, the presence of "something" tells the >> player that it sure isn't what the key signature indicates. The player >> may have to make a quick guess as to what the accidental most likely is >> -- and of course will be wrong 100% of the time because it wasn't a >> necessary marking. I cuss the engraver every time they do that to me. >> >> With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. >> Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read >> accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
I totally agree that cautionary accidentals without parens cause me to glance back as well. And don't forget singers. Cautionary accidentals in parens need to be present when there's a cross-relation on or nearby. This also goes for astute string players -- in a piece of mine a few weeks ago, an A-flat in one part was followed by an A-natural in another, and the second player stopped to make sure that it wasn't a mistake. Dennis On Sat, November 29, 2014 12:06 pm, Steve Parker wrote: > I do a lot of sight-reading too, including an increasing amount of stuff > printed for audition from the internet in keys like E#.. > Cautionarys without parentheses cause my eyes to skip back and check the key > or the previous accidental . > > My preference is: > > If the note is changed by the accidental, then obviously no parentheses. > If the note is not changed by the accidental then it is not really an > ‘accidental’ and should be parenthesised. > > Clearly, there are modern (and ancient) situations where the rules are > different - in 17-limit JI I have accidentals on every note, no parentheses. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
I do a lot of sight-reading too, including an increasing amount of stuff printed for audition from the internet in keys like E#.. Cautionarys without parentheses cause my eyes to skip back and check the key or the previous accidental . My preference is: If the note is changed by the accidental, then obviously no parentheses. If the note is not changed by the accidental then it is not really an ‘accidental’ and should be parenthesised. Clearly, there are modern (and ancient) situations where the rules are different - in 17-limit JI I have accidentals on every note, no parentheses. Steve P. > On 29 Nov 2014, at 05:32, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. > Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read > accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
I have an extensive library of music from many different publishers. I can’t find any consensus over whether or not to put parentheses on cautionary accidentals: some do, some don’t. As a player (pianist who has to sight-read a lot, accompanying opera), I prefer not to see the parentheses, for reasons others have already given. When I’m sight-reading at speed I often don’t notice if a given accidental is a necessary or a cautionary one: I see a D-flat, play a D-flat and move on. As a conductor I’ve never had problems with players stumbling over cautionary accidentals, with or without parentheses, but I’ve often had players make mistakes through the lack of cautionary accidentals at appropriate places. > On 29 Nov 2014, at 06:32, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > On 11/28/2014 10:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >> Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals >> either. > > Really? > > That surely isn't my experience. I don't recall seeing any recently > published music from a respected publishing house that does it that way. > > I find that a non-parenthesized unnecessary accidental causes more > errors than it avoids. If the player's eyesight isn't perfect or the > player is otherwise distracted, the presence of "something" tells the > player that it sure isn't what the key signature indicates. The player > may have to make a quick guess as to what the accidental most likely is > -- and of course will be wrong 100% of the time because it wasn't a > necessary marking. I cuss the engraver every time they do that to me. > > With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. > Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read > accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Craig, I agree entirely Cheers, Lawrence Sent from my iPhone > On 29 Nov 2014, at 5:32 am, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > >> On 11/28/2014 10:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >> Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals >> either. > > Really? > > That surely isn't my experience. I don't recall seeing any recently > published music from a respected publishing house that does it that way. > > I find that a non-parenthesized unnecessary accidental causes more > errors than it avoids. If the player's eyesight isn't perfect or the > player is otherwise distracted, the presence of "something" tells the > player that it sure isn't what the key signature indicates. The player > may have to make a quick guess as to what the accidental most likely is > -- and of course will be wrong 100% of the time because it wasn't a > necessary marking. I cuss the engraver every time they do that to me. > > With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. > Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read > accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
When I was a music editor, when dealing with a pitch on beat one that had been altered on the final beat of the previous measure but was restored in the new measure by the key signature, it was my practice to do two non-conventional things: to place an accidental on the pitch and not to parenthesize it. If the pitch had been altered earlier in the preceding measure and not used again, I would not do this. There are other parameters that I used to determine what I would do but they were judgment calls. I tried to be consistent. RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
On 11/28/2014 10:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: > Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals > either. Really? That surely isn't my experience. I don't recall seeing any recently published music from a respected publishing house that does it that way. I find that a non-parenthesized unnecessary accidental causes more errors than it avoids. If the player's eyesight isn't perfect or the player is otherwise distracted, the presence of "something" tells the player that it sure isn't what the key signature indicates. The player may have to make a quick guess as to what the accidental most likely is -- and of course will be wrong 100% of the time because it wasn't a necessary marking. I cuss the engraver every time they do that to me. With courtesy accidentals, either parenthesize them or leave them out. Anything else is a hostile act, IMHO. It is hard enough to sight-read accidentals accurately without the engraver placing land mines in the way. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
We've had this discussion before, and I would just like to remind everyone that there is a valid dissenting opinion. I don't parenthesise courtesy accidentals any more, after having a whole slew of them misread in a bunch of fast-moving highly-chromatic passages. I understand why now; it's that putting parentheses around them gives every accidental the same shape, so they are easily confused in a fast passage. Even at the best of times, sharps and naturals are very close in shape, but jazz favouring flat keys helps avoid making that as big an issue. Most major publishers these days do not parenthesise courtesy accidentals either. Christopher On Fri Nov 28, at FridayNov 28 10:11 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > If you parenthesize the cautionary accidentals, you will NEVER be called > on it by any serious musician. The very best musicians appreciate the > efforts of the composer/arranger/publisher to make them look good. > > I can't count the number of times that good musicians have made bad > entrances because an inept notation job that lacked simple things like > double bars to denote the structure or had goofy (but mathematically > correct) note durations. > > > On 11/28/2014 2:18 PM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: >> Yes--I've always found that cautionary and other redundant accidentals save >> more time than they take to make. Only been called on the carpet for them a >> couple times. >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
If you parenthesize the cautionary accidentals, you will NEVER be called on it by any serious musician. The very best musicians appreciate the efforts of the composer/arranger/publisher to make them look good. I can't count the number of times that good musicians have made bad entrances because an inept notation job that lacked simple things like double bars to denote the structure or had goofy (but mathematically correct) note durations. On 11/28/2014 2:18 PM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: > Yes--I've always found that cautionary and other redundant accidentals save > more time than they take to make. Only been called on the carpet for them a > couple times. > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Yes--I've always found that cautionary and other redundant accidentals save more time than they take to make. Only been called on the carpet for them a couple times. ajr John Witmer wrote: > Music is NOT an extreme sport. Those who won't use cautionary accidentals are music snobs. - Original Message - From: Simon Troup To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16 On 28 November 2014 at 11:35, Steve Parker wrote: > Music is not an extreme sport where the ‘real men’ don’t use safety kit….. Well said that man! -- Simon Troup | BA Hons (Mus) http://www.digitalmusicart.com Partners: Simon Troup & Jennie Troup VAT Registration: 982 4230 17 *"If you can twang it, we can engrave it. Seriously, we can. No... really!"* *This email is a private communication between the sender and the intended recipient. If you received this email in error be advised that all content, information and files contained in the message remain copyright of the author, artist or original copyright holder and may not be used without permission.* ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Music is NOT an extreme sport. Those who won't use cautionary accidentals are music snobs. - Original Message - From: Simon Troup To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16 On 28 November 2014 at 11:35, Steve Parker wrote: > Music is not an extreme sport where the ‘real men’ don’t use safety kit….. Well said that man! -- Simon Troup | BA Hons (Mus) http://www.digitalmusicart.com Partners: Simon Troup & Jennie Troup VAT Registration: 982 4230 17 *"If you can twang it, we can engrave it. Seriously, we can. No... really!"* *This email is a private communication between the sender and the intended recipient. If you received this email in error be advised that all content, information and files contained in the message remain copyright of the author, artist or original copyright holder and may not be used without permission.* ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
On 28 November 2014 at 11:35, Steve Parker wrote: > Music is not an extreme sport where the ‘real men’ don’t use safety kit….. Well said that man! -- Simon Troup | BA Hons (Mus) http://www.digitalmusicart.com Partners: Simon Troup & Jennie Troup VAT Registration: 982 4230 17 *"If you can twang it, we can engrave it. Seriously, we can. No... really!"* *This email is a private communication between the sender and the intended recipient. If you received this email in error be advised that all content, information and files contained in the message remain copyright of the author, artist or original copyright holder and may not be used without permission.* ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Or for those that wish their music to be sight-read safely during a session costing £20,000+. And a dozen other reasons. Music is not an extreme sport where the ‘real men’ don’t use safety kit….. Steve P. > On 26 Nov 2014, at 18:45, Patrick Sheehan > wrote: > > Let's hope so! Cautionary (and courtesy) accidentals are for the weak! > > patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com > > -Original Message- > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of > finale-requ...@shsu.edu > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:00 PM > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16 > > Send Finale mailing list submissions to > finale@shsu.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > finale-requ...@shsu.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > finale-ow...@shsu.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Finale digest..." > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16
Let's hope so! Cautionary (and courtesy) accidentals are for the weak! patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of finale-requ...@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:00 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 136, Issue 16 Send Finale mailing list submissions to finale@shsu.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to finale-requ...@shsu.edu You can reach the person managing the list at finale-ow...@shsu.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Finale digest..." ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
