Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Noel Stoutenburg]

John Howell wrote, in part:
The operative characteristic of 16th and 17th century music from 
movable type is that each piece of type has not only the musical 
character but the 5 staff lines on it, so as you look across the page 
the staff lines are a little bit wavy rather than being absolutely 
straight. (Not true of Petrucci's earlier publications, which used a 
triple-impression method.)  Are you referring to some different 
approach or modification of this technology?  I've certainly never 
seen a Novello publication with those wavy staff lines. 
Yes, there was a modification of the technology, in that whereas some 
characters, for example clefs, barlines, and accidentals, included one 
or more staff lines, other characters, notes, slurs, &c. were assembled 
from smaller pieces. A quarter note might have been composed of two 
elements, the notehead and the stem. The music lines in items set this 
way may usually do not have the wavy lines, you describe, as I 
understand the term. However, close examination will show that there are 
breaks in the staff lines, and other places. The size of the breaks 
depended upon the age and amount of use the type distribution had seen. 
If the type was new, these breaks can be nearly invisible; in it was 
older, and worn, or contained pieces from a different font (as I suspect 
is the case in the example I post the link to) they are more easily 
seen. The scan at


  [NB: Scan of the first 
three measures of Hymn 349 form the 19th printing of /The Hymnal/, 
dating from about 1925, published by the Augustana Book Concern, Rock 
Island, IL. Image size is about 38k.]


is one of the more evident examples in the hymnal I refer to, though the 
breaks will be more clear if the image is downloaded and opened in an 
image processing program, so that it can be enlarged.  As far as 
Novello's editions, I have seen organ music and piano music from the 
nineteenth and early twentieth centuries published by Novello which 
appears to have been plate engraved, but all of the choral music 
(octavos, and larger works) and for hymnals and song books I've seen 
from Novello show, upon close inspection, that they were printed with 
movable music type.


ns
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[John Howell]

At 5:20 PM -0600 9/11/07, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

David W. Fenton wrote:

But type for music printing didn't die out until some time after 1800.

And some types of publications, at least choral octavos and music 
books such as hymnals, were typeset using moveable music type 
considerably later than that. The latest choral octavo I have seen 
set with musical type is a Novello anthem dating from about 1964; 
the latest example of a songbook printed with moveable type was a 
hymnal printed in 1952.


I find this hard to believe, although I can't say you're wrong.  The 
operative characteristic of 16th and 17th century music from movable 
type is that each piece of type has not only the musical character 
but the 5 staff lines on it, so as you look across the page the staff 
lines are a little bit wavy rather than being absolutely straight. 
(Not true of Petrucci's earlier publications, which used a 
triple-impression method.)  Are you referring to some different 
approach or modification of this technology?  I've certainly never 
seen a Novello publication with those wavy staff lines.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Noel Stoutenburg]

David W. Fenton wrote:
But type for music printing didn't die out until some time after 
1800.
  
And some types of publications, at least choral octavos and music books 
such as hymnals, were typeset using moveable music type considerably 
later than that. The latest choral octavo I have seen set with musical 
type is a Novello anthem dating from about 1964; the latest example of a 
songbook printed with moveable type was a hymnal printed in 1952.


ns.


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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[David W. Fenton]

On 10 Sep 2007 at 23:08, John Howell wrote:

> printing music from movable type is exactly how 16th century 
> publishers did it, until the use of engraved copper plates came 
> along--sometime in the 17th century, I would think.

Well, Breitkopf's system developed in the mid-18th century was an 
effort to make a typesetting system that looked better and was 
cheaper than engraving. I don't know that I agree that it looks very 
good -- it's certainly inferior in comparison to the finest 
engraving, but not that much worse than some of the hack-work 
engraving that is seen in the late 18th century, especially in 
Vienna. Paris, on the other hand (and to a lesser extent, London), 
seemed to maintain higher engraving standards as a rule than the 
German engravers. I don't know why.

But type for music printing didn't die out until some time after 
1800.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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RE: [Finale] Help with English

[Richard Yates]

 
>I would say
>"Music digitally engraved by Johannes Gebauer"

It makes me think of VERY sharp fingernails. 

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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[John Howell]

At 1:41 PM +0200 9/10/07, dc wrote:
I'm curious: wouldn't "music typesetting" in its original sense 
refer to music printed from movable type, as opposed precisely to 
engraving? In which case engraving would be closer than typesetting 
to what one does on the the computer.


Yes, and printing music from movable type is exactly how 16th century 
publishers did it, until the use of engraved copper plates came 
along--sometime in the 17th century, I would think.


But earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that "note setting" was 
comparable to "type setting."  That hasn't been done, to my 
knowledge, in years.  In the U.S., at least, and I suspect in Europe 
as well, text has been computer set for longer than music has been. 
(Yes, I limped through a period of using WordStar and the Commodore 
64 in the early '80s!!)


And of course hand copying, while less prevalent today, has NEVER 
gone out of style and probably never will.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

dc wrote, on 9/10/2007 5:43 AM:

I think "engraving" is much better.


I agree with the sentiment that a change in tools doesn't necessarily 
dictate or even invite a change in terms. I haven't "dialed" a telephone 
in more than 30 years and heck, I've been campaigning to use "nonpop" in 
place of "classical" for quite a while -- and you see how successful 
that's been.


On the occasions when it's requested by a client, my work is marked, 
"Music engraved by..."


Dennis




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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Bruce E. Clausen]

Me, too.  We are engraving with our digits.
BC

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Willis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Finale] Help with English



I like that one...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
Of

A-NO-NE Music
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:34 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Help with English

dhbailey / 07.9.10 / 8:17 AM wrote:


"Music computer-engraved by Johannes Gebauer"


I would say
   "Music digitally engraved by Johannes Gebauer"

--

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA <http://a-no-ne.com>
<http://anonemusic.com>


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RE: [Finale] Help with English

[Richard Willis]

I like that one... 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
A-NO-NE Music
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:34 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Help with English

dhbailey / 07.9.10 / 8:17 AM wrote:

>"Music computer-engraved by Johannes Gebauer"

I would say
"Music digitally engraved by Johannes Gebauer"

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA <http://a-no-ne.com>
<http://anonemusic.com>


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
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8:48 AM
 

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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
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8:48 AM
 

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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 10.09.2007 Darcy James Argue wrote:

The word he's looking for is "notesetting," which is a synonym of "engraving." (See the 
subtitle of Steven Powell's book: "The Art and Practice of Digital Notesetting.")


Thank you, that was what I was looking for. Does everybody agree that 
this is the correct term? I think the publisher will like it, too, since 
it is actually the direct translation of the German word "Notensatz".


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[dhbailey]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:

To the wisdom of the list:

I am working for a publisher who wants to name me as an engraver. He 
insists that it should say, in English:


Music setting by Johannes Gebauer

To me this sounds as though I set, ie arranged the music. All I did was 
the engraving, I had no part in the arrangement.


Shouldn't it say "Music Engraving by Johannes Gebauer"?

Thanks for your insights.

Johannes


I agree with you that it should say "Music Engraving" and not "Music 
Setting" which as you say would to many people indicate that you did the 
arranging.


However, the term "Music Typesetting" would also be possible with no 
misunderstanding, but I would hold out for "Music Engraving."


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[A-NO-NE Music]

dhbailey / 07.9.10 / 8:17 AM wrote:

>"Music computer-engraved by Johannes Gebauer"

I would say
"Music digitally engraved by Johannes Gebauer"

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:

dhbailey écrit:
However, the term "Music Typesetting" would also be possible with no 
misunderstanding, but I would hold out for "Music Engraving."


I'm curious: wouldn't "music typesetting" in its original sense refer to 
music printed from movable type, as opposed precisely to engraving? In 
which case engraving would be closer than typesetting to what one does 
on the the computer.


And regardless of the orginal meaning, I think "engraving" has a higher 
quality connotation than "setting", so it would have my preference.




I guess it all comes down to semantics, and I, too, like "engraving" 
better than "typesetting" but I'm not sure with computers which we're 
actually closer to.


Engraving implies using a tool to place certain objects but also using 
gravers and scrapers and other tools to hand-draw many of the elements.


Typesetting implies taking pre-formed items and placing them in the 
proper sequence to get the desired printed result.


I don't hand-draw any of the elements in Finale, I take them from 
pre-formed items and place them in their proper places, which could be 
construed as being closer to typesetting than to engraving.  Yes, I do 
hand-shape certain slurs and ending brackets, but I am not hand-drawing 
them, merely reshaping the preformed elements.


On the other hand, the printed result looks much more like hand-engraved 
music than it looks like typeset music.


Perhaps we need to use a new term in situations such as Johannes's, and 
have the publisher give the credit:

"Music computer-engraved by Johannes Gebauer"



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[shirling & neueweise]

Notesetting


Does everybody agree that this is the correct 
term? I think the publisher will like it, too, 
since it is actually the direct translation of 
the German word "Notensatz".


yes, but i also agree that Engraving could be 
used.  words don't always become obsolete when 
the manner of their use or their relation to the 
context changes.


eg.

- char (fr. [québec]), from chariot (old french), 
used today for "car". Y'où c'que j'ai parké le 
char, ostie?
- piasse (fr. [québec]), from piastre (old 
french, monetary value), used today for "buck" 
(coll.). Donne-moi une piasse, mon ostie.


not that these examples will serve your argument 
with the publisher, but they're fun.  it's always 
amusing to show french people who ridicule 
québecois that there are old french words used in 
québec that the french don't even understand.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[John Howell]

At 11:25 PM +0100 9/9/07, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

To the wisdom of the list:

I am working for a publisher who wants to name me as an engraver. He 
insists that it should say, in English:


Music setting by Johannes Gebauer

To me this sounds as though I set, ie arranged the music. All I did 
was the engraving, I had no part in the arrangement.


Yes, it could easily be so misinterpreted.



Shouldn't it say "Music Engraving by Johannes Gebauer"?


Yes it should.  At some point, one could speak about "note setting," 
but nowadays that means engraving.  Is your publisher a native 
English speaker?


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Christopher Smith]

On Sep 9, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 09.09.2007 Christopher Smith wrote:
I agree with you. Even "Engraving by Johannes Gebauer" should be  
sufficient. "Setting" does sound like some kind of realisation or  
arrangement was done, if not actual composing, like setting a poem  
to music.


I guess the reason he doesn't want to use this is because it isn't  
actually engraved - it is done using a computer. Is there any other  
word which might be used, which applies to the computer "setting"  
of music?


His argument is that "music setting" corresponds to "type setting".


Hey, there are all kinds of expressions that don't correspond to  
their original meanings any more, like "track" even on a cassette or  
CD instead of an LP, "... Press" for a publisher that doesn't use a  
printing press, "font foundry" for a company that designs fonts to be  
used by a computer rather than lead type, the list goes on.


Is English his first language?

Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Johannes,

The word he's looking for is "notesetting," which is a synonym of  
"engraving." (See the subtitle of Steven Powell's book: "The Art and  
Practice of Digital Notesetting.")


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 09 Sep 2007, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 09.09.2007 Christopher Smith wrote:
I agree with you. Even "Engraving by Johannes Gebauer" should be  
sufficient. "Setting" does sound like some kind of realisation or  
arrangement was done, if not actual composing, like setting a poem  
to music.


I guess the reason he doesn't want to use this is because it isn't  
actually engraved - it is done using a computer. Is there any other  
word which might be used, which applies to the computer "setting"  
of music?


His argument is that "music setting" corresponds to "type setting".

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 09.09.2007 Christopher Smith wrote:

I agree with you. Even "Engraving by Johannes Gebauer" should be sufficient. 
"Setting" does sound like some kind of realisation or arrangement was done, if not actual 
composing, like setting a poem to music.


I guess the reason he doesn't want to use this is because it isn't 
actually engraved - it is done using a computer. Is there any other word 
which might be used, which applies to the computer "setting" of music?


His argument is that "music setting" corresponds to "type setting".

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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RE: [Finale] Help with English

[Williams, Jim]

It is a bit confusing.
In this context "setting" could mean "Satz" as in "Notensatz."
but "setting" does indeed suggest arrangement.
A better term would be "music typesetting." That will keep the word "setting" but give 
the proper meaning. Will they accept "Music typesetting"?
Jim 




From: Johannes Gebauer
Sent: Sun 09-Sep-07 18:25
To: Finale
Subject: [Finale] Help with English


To the wisdom of the list:

I am working for a publisher who wants to name me as an engraver. He 
insists that it should say, in English:


Music setting by Johannes Gebauer

To me this sounds as though I set, ie arranged the music. All I did was 
the engraving, I had no part in the arrangement.


Shouldn't it say "Music Engraving by Johannes Gebauer"?

Thanks for your insights.

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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Re: [Finale] Help with English

[Christopher Smith]

On Sep 9, 2007, at 6:25 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


To the wisdom of the list:

I am working for a publisher who wants to name me as an engraver.  
He insists that it should say, in English:


Music setting by Johannes Gebauer

To me this sounds as though I set, ie arranged the music. All I did  
was the engraving, I had no part in the arrangement.


Shouldn't it say "Music Engraving by Johannes Gebauer"?



I agree with you. Even "Engraving by Johannes Gebauer" should be  
sufficient. "Setting" does sound like some kind of realisation or  
arrangement was done, if not actual composing, like setting a poem to  
music.


Christopher



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[Finale] Help with English

[Johannes Gebauer]

To the wisdom of the list:

I am working for a publisher who wants to name me as an engraver. He 
insists that it should say, in English:


Music setting by Johannes Gebauer

To me this sounds as though I set, ie arranged the music. All I did was 
the engraving, I had no part in the arrangement.


Shouldn't it say "Music Engraving by Johannes Gebauer"?

Thanks for your insights.

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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