Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 23, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: Hokay; time to call in the experts. Cecil Forsythe, writing from England in 1914, says "In this country the Bass-Trombone, both for orchestral and military purposes, is always built in G... On the continent the Bass Trombone has always been built in F... and it has always been the practice from Mozart and Beethoven's time till the present day to write down to the low C. Passages where this note occurs have usually to be altered or transposed by our players." Now, I'm no great expert in the fine details of trombone history, but I do know that American practice almost always follows continental-European tradition because it was folks from those countries who in the 19th c. became most of our instrument builders, our music teachers, and our conductors (and composers: A. P. Heinrich [1781-1861] routinely takes the bass trombone down to C). I think, too, that it is certain beyond question that the F trigger was invented specifically to allow a tenor trombone to temporarily become a bass--in F. The joining of the two instruments into one made the distinction between trombone and bass trombone largely trivial for anyone but a trombonist. As far as the contrabass trombone goes, I think I'm going to wander over to the contrabass list and see what those folks have to say. I'll report back. The F bass trombone that Forsythe mentions (and he IS the only one who mentions it that I can find, besides you in your book, Andrew! Buncha wimps!) is no doubt the ancestor to the one that my pals are calling an F contrabass. Perhaps the modern F instrument has a wider bore than the one in 1914 had, plus a valve or two, but this is no different than the Bb trombone getting wider over time and acquiring a valve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombone#Contrabass_trombone http://www.contrabass.com/pages/cbtbn.html http://www.basstrombone.nl/default.asp?subj=contrabasstrombone http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/trombone_gallery/trombone_gallery.html This last link shows Douglas Yeo's instrument collection, which includes an F straight bass trombone and an F contrabass trombone (with two valves), both in exactly the same pitch! As I said, I don't know why the nomenclature changed from bass trombone to contrabass trombone when denoting the modern instrument. Possibly to avoid confusion over the instrument in Bb that we all call a bass trombone now. A similar thing happened with the tenor horn, called baritone horn in North America. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 22, 2006, at 4:43 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: A simplex bass trombone is an instrument in F. Did you mean to say G? I thought we had established that the F bass trombone is called a contrabass, for no apparent reason. Hokay; time to call in the experts. Cecil Forsythe, writing from England in 1914, says "In this country the Bass-Trombone, both for orchestral and military purposes, is always built in G... On the continent the Bass Trombone has always been built in F... and it has always been the practice from Mozart and Beethoven's time till the present day to write down to the low C. Passages where this note occurs have usually to be altered or transposed by our players." Now, I'm no great expert in the fine details of trombone history, but I do know that American practice almost always follows continental-European tradition because it was folks from those countries who in the 19th c. became most of our instrument builders, our music teachers, and our conductors (and composers: A. P. Heinrich [1781-1861] routinely takes the bass trombone down to C). I think, too, that it is certain beyond question that the F trigger was invented specifically to allow a tenor trombone to temporarily become a bass--in F. The joining of the two instruments into one made the distinction between trombone and bass trombone largely trivial for anyone but a trombonist. As far as the contrabass trombone goes, I think I'm going to wander over to the contrabass list and see what those folks have to say. I'll report back. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Christopher Smith wrote: On Jun 21, 2006, at 9:05 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: And I use a King 2b Liberty (dual .581/.591 bore) You must have meant .481/.491, as .581 is ENORMOUS, like contrabass trombone bore. True. My horns vary a lot, from a .445 trumpthe .508 valve trombone, the .525 trombone, and the .447/.462 trombone, and the .470 baritone; and my fingers just naturally go to the ".5xx" when discussing the trombones. for jazz leads and a lot of small combo work to blend with (usually) 1 sax or a sax and trumpet - the bigger horns would not blend well at all, and the .547 would not be nimble enough to solo on. Talk to Slide Hampton and Robin Eubanks about that; they might disagree! Yes, but they are special. Bill Reichenbach plays great jazz on a bass 'bone, but the vast majority are not *quite* as masochistic. :) I personally find it easier to be flexible when using a lighter airstream, which is easier when using a smaller horn. Smaller bore instruments don't necessarily sound all that different, they just make it easier to obtain the kind of sound jazz players tend to like better, for longer periods of time. They also play more easily in the high register. I have exactly the same range on bass trombone as on my pea-shooter Bach 16M tenor trombone, but I last WAY longer above the staff on the pea-shooter. I have a very different sound on each horn, but then again I use diferent mouthpieces on each horn. With (for example) a 6 1/2 AL, the sound would be more similar, but that often defeats the purpose, as that 'piece makes playing below the staff much harder, and thins the sound out in the low range. Homogenization is mostly a theoretical pursuit - orchestras go in one direction, jazz players go another, and the studio cats do whatever they want (if you want to see a wide variety of horns, go to a commercial scoring session some time!) In some circles, session players all play the same model of horn, according to who is playing lead. For example, in Toronto when trombone players are called for a session, they ask who else will be there, and if a certain guy is playing lead, then they all bring their King 2Bs to match him, and another horn for a different lead player. Sound weird to me here in Montreal, but there is no doubt that the section blend is extraordinary from what I have heard. True, but my studio experience is almost entirely in L.A. and San Diego, where guys will bring in whatever they want, and make it sound different by sheer acts of will, apparently. Then again, in L.A. they hire the player whose sound they want, rather than hiring players for playing ability and then asking for a particular sound. That's why it's such a pain getting work there! :o cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 22, 2006, at 4:26 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: but even if it was missing the 2nd trigger (or even a straight horn! I've seen them!) it would still be a bass trombone. A simplex bass trombone is an instrument in F. Did you mean to say G? I thought we had established that the F bass trombone is called a contrabass, for no apparent reason. Some orchestral bass trombonists (my former teacher among them) play a straight bass trombone in Bb when they don't have to play below E under the staff, because the straight air tube is more responsive and resonant than the almost identical horn with the valves. You might call it a tenor, but it has a bore, bell, lead pipe and mouthpiece exactly like a bass trombone with triggers. A "normal" bass trombone with one or two triggers is an instrument in Bb with an F attachment. That is of course also true of the, let us say, non-bass trombone. Unlike the old simplex instruments, the trombone (notice I don't call it a tenor) and bass trombone are virtually identical acoustically. They have the same range, play the same notes in the same way from the same positions. The only difference is that one is optimized for the performance of low notes, and the other isn't. BFD. I don't know what BFD means, but the fact of one being optimised for low notes is fairly important, if not to you, then certainly for the players. They specialise on one or the other from fairly early in their training, and switching is not a fait accompli unless you have already practiced the other one for a fairly long time. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: The addition of a trigger alone does not make the instrument a "tenor-bass", as even King 3b's (peashooters) are available with triggers. They are just large-bore tenor trombones, that happen to have an F trigger. The real tenor-bass that is called bass trombone in North America these days has a bore that is larger still, a larger bell, and a much deeper mouthpiece and wider backbore and lead pipe. Almost all modern bass trombones also have a 2nd trigger, The confusion here is largely the fault of history. When the trigger was introduced, instruments bearing it were called tenor-bass trombones because the trigger changed the instrument from Bb (tenor) to F (bass), and the instrument was designed to fill both roles. I have no idea what the bore of these early instruments was like, but it didn't matter: the trigger was the key point. Eventually, trombones with triggers became the norm, and at that point the "tenor-bass" term was dropped and the instrument was (and is) called simply "trombone." At that point you start getting a lot of scores such as the Hindemith _Symphonic Metamorphosis_ that simply call for 3 trombones w.o differentiating among them. You also see lots of scores for 2 trombones (NB: not specifically tenor trombones) and bass trombone, the latter differing from the former only in subtle ways (bigger bore, often 2 triggers), whereas in the old days the difference betw. a btrb (strictly in F) and ttrb (strictly in Bb) was quite distinct. To me, therefore, much of this discussion seems rather like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. but even if it was missing the 2nd trigger (or even a straight horn! I've seen them!) it would still be a bass trombone. A simplex bass trombone is an instrument in F. A "normal" bass trombone with one or two triggers is an instrument in Bb with an F attachment. That is of course also true of the, let us say, non-bass trombone. Unlike the old simplex instruments, the trombone (notice I don't call it a tenor) and bass trombone are virtually identical acoustically. They have the same range, play the same notes in the same way from the same positions. The only difference is that one is optimized for the performance of low notes, and the other isn't. BFD. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 22, 2006, at 2:45 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: Another bit of confusion: I think that a lot of the very wide-bore, big-bell btrbs. that some of you have been discussing are the same thing that I have been calling an F contrabass trombone. No, not really. If there is a distinction betw. the two, I don't know what it is. Fundamental frequency. The bass trombone that almost every North American orchestra uses has a fundamental frequency of Bb, same as the tenor trombone. The F contrabass is pitched a 4th lower, and has a correspondingly longer slide, which means it has an extension handle for human beings with non-gorilla arms to get the lower positions. I never understood why they call THIS one a contrabass, as it is only a tone lower than the old-fashioned G bass trombone, and has a bore and mouthpiece that are very similar to an orchestral "tenor-bass" trombone. (BTW, nobody uses the term "tenor-bass" any more. We just call it a bass trombone.) The F contrabass plays more like a bass trombone than like a BBb contrabass, and sound more like the regular bass trombone too. so your confusion there is justified. But to the eye, Long with extension = F contrabass (although the G bass looks like this, too! Watch out!) Much larger bore than the G bass. Same length as a tenor, but big bore and bell and usually has two triggers = bass trombone. Double slide = BBb contrabass. Responds like a bad tuba. I played one made by Mirafone for a year and never got an even scale out of it past the first octave. In my book I use the term cbtrb. to refer only to the "true" contrabass in BBb, with double-barreled slide, or the valved equivalent; but following discussions last year with people on the contrabass list, I have been persuaded that any wide-bore trombone that can readily play down to the piano's bottom A, with no gaps, should be considered a contrabass trombone. Since there are a lot of professional trombonists gathered here, I'd like to ask how and where they themselves draw the line. I just use the manufacturers names. But I still ask why the F contrabass is not called an F bass trombone. Whacky. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 10:49 PM, John Howell wrote: Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. I would think that if it were "Just what ... Berg wanted," he would have specified contrabass. I suspect that he knew exactly what he wanted, and what it would sound like on the instrument specified. It's quite clear however that he *didn't* know what he was doing. He specifies three tenor trombones and one bass. The tenors are all instructed to play a fortissimo "Pedalton" on a pitch that can in fact only be played as a weak privileged frequency. It is a neat irony that, had the first trombone been designated an alto, it could have played this same note as a true pedal--but it was not so designated. All that being the case, it is not at all clear that his instruction to the btrb to play the same note an octave lower was a fully informed decision. Another bit of confusion: I think that a lot of the very wide-bore, big-bell btrbs. that some of you have been discussing are the same thing that I have been calling an F contrabass trombone. If there is a distinction betw. the two, I don't know what it is. In my book I use the term cbtrb. to refer only to the "true" contrabass in BBb, with double-barreled slide, or the valved equivalent; but following discussions last year with people on the contrabass list, I have been persuaded that any wide-bore trombone that can readily play down to the piano's bottom A, with no gaps, should be considered a contrabass trombone. Since there are a lot of professional trombonists gathered here, I'd like to ask how and where they themselves draw the line. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Title: Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs At 11:50 PM -0400 6/21/06, Raymond Horton wrote: Tchaik 1st trombone parts are written for tenor, as are nearly everything after Brahms. The clefs, as time went on, do NOT always indicate choice of instrument, nor do the names on the part, which were sometimes supplied by the publisher (example Bruckner symphonies - 1st parts are labled "alto", but unplayable on alto.) -- See Ken Shifrin's excellent Oxford PHD thesis on this and more, excerpted at: http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/shifrin/shifrin01.php -- Ray, thanks so much for this reference! I found the Introduction and Preface quite interesting, and will be working my way through the rest of it. (I've have always had a special interest in instrumentation and orchestration, and cherish some of Berlioz' comments in his "Traite"!) While I understand the rationale for starting with Beethoven, if one is concentrating on symphonic literature, I do question this sentence from the Preface: "Because the alto joined the orchestra on the backs of the tenor and bass trombone, composers prior to Wagner did not so much choose between the alto and tenor for the sake of tone colour, but were stuck with the ATB combination. " In no sense that I know of did the alto join the orchestra "on the backs of the tenor and bass trombone." In fact, when Beethoven introduced the trombone section in his 5th Symphony, he simply took over the practice that Mozart had followed in a great deal of his church music, doubling the alto, tenor and bass choral lines with alto, tenor and bass sackbutts. (I use the older term deliberately to distinguish the trombone pre-1800 from the trombone post-1800, just as keyboard specialists speak of the fortepiano and the pianoforte with the same general meanings. There was, of course, lots of overlap.) Mozart's sackbutts blended wonderfully with voices, whereas a trio of modern large-bore trombones will blow a 100-voice chorus off the stage, especially when the alto part is attempted on an 88-H! The "brass band" music of composers just before Bach called for (judging by range and tessitura as well as clefs) 2 cornetti and alto, tenor and bass sackbutts. In a graduate seminar, our class was given photocopies of pages from a European manuscript containing music from around 1500 (Isaac) to around 1620 (Schütz). I had pages with a Schütz motet, copied from his publication of the Psalms of David in about 1619, and on the alto, tenor and bass chorus lines were clearly written indications "con tromboni" and "senza tromboni." (The 16th century, of course, was the century during which instruments were first produced in families of at least 3 sizes covering the alto, tenor, and bass vocal ranges.) Monteverdi's use of sackbutts in "L'Orfeo" (1607; used only in the scenes in the underworld, thus confirming the mindset that tromboni sounded like hell! ;-)) is in 5 parts, with the clefs suggesting alto, 3 tenors and bass, which matches the distribution of a good many 16th century madrigals, masses and motets. There is also the suggestive name of one of the early 16th century Italian frotola composers, Bartolomeo Tromboncino (Bart who plays the little trombone!, c.1470-1535). Sounds like an alto to me! John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 11:50 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: Tchaik 1st trombone parts are written for tenor, as are nearly everything after Brahms. The clefs, as time went on, do NOT always indicate choice of instrument, nor do the names on the part, which were sometimes supplied by the publisher (example Bruckner symphonies - 1st parts are labled "alto", but unplayable on alto.) -- See Ken Shifrin's excellent Oxford PHD thesis on this and more, excerpted at: http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/shifrin/ shifrin01.php Hey, that's a GREAT article! I defer to Ken's obvious knowledge, research and academic rigour on the subject. Thanks for helping clear it up. Your Bruckner example is very illuminating. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 9:05 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: And I use a King 2b Liberty (dual .581/.591 bore) You must have meant .481/.491, as .581 is ENORMOUS, like contrabass trombone bore. for jazz leads and a lot of small combo work to blend with (usually) 1 sax or a sax and trumpet - the bigger horns would not blend well at all, and the .547 would not be nimble enough to solo on. Talk to Slide Hampton and Robin Eubanks about that; they might disagree! Smaller bore instruments don't necessarily sound all that different, they just make it easier to obtain the kind of sound jazz players tend to like better, for longer periods of time. They also play more easily in the high register. I have exactly the same range on bass trombone as on my pea-shooter Bach 16M tenor trombone, but I last WAY longer above the staff on the pea-shooter. Homogenization is mostly a theoretical pursuit - orchestras go in one direction, jazz players go another, and the studio cats do whatever they want (if you want to see a wide variety of horns, go to a commercial scoring session some time!) In some circles, session players all play the same model of horn, according to who is playing lead. For example, in Toronto when trombone players are called for a session, they ask who else will be there, and if a certain guy is playing lead, then they all bring their King 2Bs to match him, and another horn for a different lead player. Sound weird to me here in Montreal, but there is no doubt that the section blend is extraordinary from what I have heard. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Tchaik 1st trombone parts are written for tenor, as are nearly everything after Brahms. The clefs, as time went on, do NOT always indicate choice of instrument, nor do the names on the part, which were sometimes supplied by the publisher (example Bruckner symphonies - 1st parts are labled "alto", but unplayable on alto.) -- See Ken Shifrin's excellent Oxford PHD thesis on this and more, excerpted at: http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/shifrin/shifrin01.php -- I've never read the reason Christopher gives for the Russian alto clef tradition - that is interesting. Could Rimsky-K have been the teacher? He used Alto clef for Trbs 1 and 2, and he and his student Stravinsky used alto clef for _all three_ trombones occasionally before Stravinsky headed west. -- Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Christopher Smith wrote: I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto clef. I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what the players see (one of the few exceptions to the "score matches parts in all ways" rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be reproduced that way in authentic editions. A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for new editions of these composers' works. Christopher On Jun 20, 2006, at 6:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recent scores often put 1st and 2nd on one stave in tenor, but parts are alto, tenor, bass, respectively. RBH - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:45 Subject: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs To: finale@shsu.edu > Every time I've played the Schumann or Schubert symphonies, the > parts were > 1st-Alto Clef, 2nd-Tenor Clef, and 3rd-Bass Clef. The copies I > have at home of > these parts are all like that. The score might lump the first 2 > parts in 1 clef > for space-saving or to suggest some kind of group-treatment, but > that's just > my speculation. > > -Steve S > NYC > > In a message dated 6/19/06 1:01:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > << OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the > score survives, in > copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A > and T > on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. > When I > extract the parts, should the tenor trombone part be: > 1) in the alto clef, because that's what it is in the score. > 2) in the tenor clef, because that's the norm for > 19th-c. tenor > trombone parts. > 3) in bass clef, because that's what's usual today. > NOTE: I am trying to be "authentic" here, so, e.g., the > clarinets are > getting parts for cl. in C, as per the score. >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
At 5:21 PM -0400 6/21/06, Andrew Stiller wrote: And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, "tenor trombone" really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. The difference between tenor and bass is less the presence or absence of a trigger, but the size of the bore and the size of the bell. And yes, I've already mentioned (perhaps crossing your post) that the *average* tenor nowadays is a larger bore instrument than the tenor in any pre-1930 orchestra. Even a "jazz" tenor (King 2-B, Conn 6-H) may be larger than 19th century tenors. At the other end of the scale, I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, and I don't write for it specifically unless I need the low B natural. An interesting statement. I find that the bass trombone, whether with 1, 2, or 3 triggers, is quite a different instrument from the tenor, with its own unique timbre and gravitas. Of course you have not mentioned one very important factor: the mouthpiece. A Bach 1-G or 1 1/2-G is a true bass trombone mouthpiece, and helps produce the characteristic bass trombone sound. I forget whether Raymond Horton is on this mailing list, but I would value his input on these questions. For the same reason, though, it doesn't bother me at all if a Btrb plays a 3d trb. part, and I'm sure that are some that implicitly expect a bass trombone there. No reason why a bass shouldn't play a 3rd part that doesn't require the lower range. It still fattens up the section sound. However, the manager of the regional orchestra I've been playing with hired a substitute 3rd trombonist for one concert, and she was playing a large-bore tenor. We did not have a bass trombone or a bass trombone sound for that concert. An interesting case is Berg's 1929 _Three Pieces for Orchestra_. Berg asks for 3 tenors and one bass trombone, but in a footnote to the instrument list, Heinz Erich Apostel says that the first trombone part was originally written in alto clef, but changed to tenor clef in the published part w. the composer's blessing. Apostel goes on to say that the part lies so high that it might be better played on an alto trombone or an Eb tenor trumpet--but then at reh. no. 155 Berg asks the first trombone (also the 2d and 3d) to play a louder-than-ff D below the bass staff. Berg specifically expects a "Pedalton," but I don't think any trombonist at all these days would play it that way, but would use the F trigger. Better to say that any Bb or Bb/F trombonist would use the F trigger. Berg knew exactly what he was doing. Great D is, in fact, a pedal tone (i.e., a fundamental) on an Eb alto trombone, 2nd position, and on no other trombone, and this suggests that he did have an alto in mind no matter what the clef. Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. I would think that if it were "Just what ... Berg wanted," he would have specified contrabass. I suspect that he knew exactly what he wanted, and what it would sound like on the instrument specified. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Robert Patterson wrote: I think this all is part of the homogification of trombone sound. My preference is a brighter trombone sound easily distingushable from a french horn or euphonium, but (at least a few years ago) all the trombonists seemed to be striving for the same darkness as those other instruments. In that world, large bores and large mouthpieces are the order of the day, and the difference between tenor and bass is completely blurred. But it was not always thus, and the re-emergence of the alto trombone I hope may signal a re-emergence of differentiated trombone sounds in general as an ideal. Yin/yang. In my personal case, my bass trombone part calls for sustained, exposed pedal F's at ppp dynamic. While this note is technically equally possible on the tenor/bass instrument the 2nd player is playing, only the bass trombone player is living his life for the chance to play this note. The difference between the bass and the tenor trombone is as much attitude as it is axe. Homogification?? That's a new one. :) We are also talking about orchestral work here. In the jazz world (where I do the vast majority of my work) the trend is not as strongly toward big horns - a 'symhony standard tenor' has a .547 bore, but a lot of jazz players juse that with a .564 trigger attachment for bass 'bone work in big bands any more, and a .500 bore is standard for lead and 2nd 'bone parts. I play 3rd 'bone in a couple of bands and use a .525 bore horn with a trigger, but the Bach 16M and King 3b (bores ranging from .500 to .509) are almost the default setting for jazz lead. And I use a King 2b Liberty (dual .581/.591 bore) for jazz leads and a lot of small combo work to blend with (usually) 1 sax or a sax and trumpet - the bigger horns would not blend well at all, and the .547 would not be nimble enough to solo on. Homogenization is mostly a theoretical pursuit - orchestras go in one direction, jazz players go another, and the studio cats do whatever they want (if you want to see a wide variety of horns, go to a commercial scoring session some time!) cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Robert Patterson wrote: I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. Getting an alto to get a good trombone sound is difficult, but possible. But you have to find just the right horn, and the right mouthpiece to use with it. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 5:45 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, "tenor trombone" really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. This is source of frustration for our first trombonist, who (with justification) believes that contemporary tenor trombone parts routinely are too low. Perhaps this is because we tend to learn it as a bass clef instrument now, even though traditionally it most certainly is not. I think most instruments traditionally sit well written in the staff, and composers assume trombones are the same. For the same reason, I see lots of flute parts that are too low to project well. The tenor trombone sits very well in the staff - if it is reading tenor clef or Bb treble British Band parts. Likewise, alto trombone sits very well in the alto staff. In my personal case, my bass trombone part calls for sustained, exposed pedal F's at ppp dynamic. While this note is technically equally possible on the tenor/bass instrument the 2nd player is playing, only the bass trombone player is living his life for the chance to play this note. The difference between the bass and the tenor trombone is as much attitude as it is axe. Well said. Christopher (we ARE living our lives for that note!) 8-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 5:21 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jun 21, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, "tenor trombone" really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. The addition of a trigger alone does not make the instrument a "tenor-bass", as even King 3b's (peashooters) are available with triggers. They are just large-bore tenor trombones, that happen to have an F trigger. The real tenor-bass that is called bass trombone in North America these days has a bore that is larger still, a larger bell, and a much deeper mouthpiece and wider backbore and lead pipe. Almost all modern bass trombones also have a 2nd trigger, but even if it was missing the 2nd trigger (or even a straight horn! I've seen them!) it would still be a bass trombone. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. They can assume away, but those notes are much warmer, more even and controlled by the bass trombonist, who in addition to the equipment advantage also has spent many hours practicing down there to justify his existence. Those notes tend to be pinched and blatty on the tenor trombone and not nearly as loud, unless the player has freakish chops. At the other end of the scale, I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, and I don't write for it specifically unless I need the low B natural. Don't use it just for that reason, as even a single-trigger player can pull the valve slide out a semitone to play low B. But if the part sits low, use the bass trombonist. Bass trombonists (at least, me!) have worked hard to be able to blend with the tenor trombones when playing mid-range, while bridging the timbre gap with the tuba when playing low. This might account for the lack of a big difference in timbre with tenors. The instrument just sits lower in its range, about a third or fourth lower than the tenor trombone. For the same reason, though, it doesn't bother me at all if a Btrb plays a 3d trb. part, and I'm sure that are some that implicitly expect a bass trombone there. That's exactly right. In the mid register, a bass trombone would be pretty much indistinguishable from a large bore tenor in sound. Below 3rd line D you start to hear much more difference, as that is when the bass trombone sound starts to open up, while the tenor trombone starts to lose projection in comparison. Berg asks the first trombone (also the 2d and 3d) to play a louder-than-ff D below the bass staff. Berg specifically expects a "Pedalton," That note WOULD be a pedal tone on an alto trombone. but I don't think any trombonist at all these days would play it that way, but would use the F trigger. Yes, on a tenor trombone only. If the player is used to playing a straight horn, he might have a trigger horn that he would use just for this passage, then pick up his usual instrument when he could. Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. Yeah, baby! (drools) We bass trombonists usually only get to play those notes in the practice room or in special literature written by trombonists for trombonists. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Another EUR0.02: 1. Many orchestral brass players lament the current trend towards 6/4 tubas, huge-bore bass trombones, and large-bore "tenor-bass" trombones. I've rehearsed with at least one group where there were reflecting devices to deflect the brass sounds away from the rest of the group. (I do not consider myself [tenor tuba] to have been part of the problem). Of course, this "equipment problem" is primarily a "performer problem" but my sense is that many younger conductors have grown up with that sound and don't know anything else. My teacher, Harvey Phillips, had no trouble BLENDING with an orchestra or soloing with it, on what we would call today a 3/4 CC tuba. He simply does not understand the need for such huge equipment or why it has to be played by some individuals "full-bore." 2. In the band realm, I attended an interesting presentation about Sousa's scoring...it worked in his day because the trombones, euphoniums, and tubas (and to some extent the trumpets) in that band were peashooters compared to today's equipment. A solo and band performance I gave at the Great American Brass Band Festival, on an instrument owned by one of Sousa's euphoniumists, really hammered that home to me. It's no wonder that Sousa's original scoring sounds so odd today... 3. The cimbasso is also coming back, esp. in the LA studios. That's a valved bass trombone, pitched usually in F, though CC and BBb versions exist...performer sits, with valves in front and bell looping around back before pointing front. And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, "tenor trombone" really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. Another inst. more frequently seen nowadays is the Cbtrb, especially the one in non-transposing F w. 2 or 3 low triggers. Now *there's* an instrument that really sounds different from the tenor trombone, and to me the ideal trb. section (for new works, of course) would be 2 trb and 1 cbtrb. An interesting case is Berg's 1929 _Three Pieces for Orchestra_. Berg asks for 3 tenors and one bass trombone, but in a footnote to the instrument list, Heinz Erich Apostel says that the first trombone part was originally written in alto clef, but changed to tenor clef in the published part w. the composer's blessing. Apostel goes on to say that the part lies so high that it might be better played on an alto trombone or an Eb tenor trumpet--but then at reh. no. 155 Berg asks the first trombone (also the 2d and 3d) to play a louder-than-ff D below the bass staff. Berg specifically expects a "Pedalton," but I don't think any trombonist at all these days would play it that way, but would use the F trigger. Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Another EUR0.02: 1. Many orchestral brass players lament the current trend towards 6/4 tubas, huge-bore bass trombones, and large-bore "tenor-bass" trombones. I've rehearsed with at least one group where there were reflecting devices to deflect the brass sounds away from the rest of the group. (I do not consider myself [tenor tuba] to have been part of the problem). Of course, this "equipment problem" is primarily a "performer problem" but my sense is that many younger conductors have grown up with that sound and don't know anything else. My teacher, Harvey Phillips, had no trouble BLENDING with an orchestra or soloing with it, on what we would call today a 3/4 CC tuba. He simply does not understand the need for such huge equipment or why it has to be played by some individuals "full-bore." 2. In the band realm, I attended an interesting presentation about Sousa's scoring...it worked in his day because the trombones, euphoniums, and tubas (and to some extent the trumpets) in that band were peashooters compared to today's equipment. A solo and band performance I gave at the Great American Brass Band Festival, on an instrument owned by one of Sousa's euphoniumists, really hammered that home to me. It's no wonder that Sousa's original scoring sounds so odd today... 3. The cimbasso is also coming back, esp. in the LA studios. That's a valved bass trombone, pitched usually in F, though CC and BBb versions exist...performer sits, with valves in front and bell looping arou
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Andrew Stiller wrote: And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, "tenor trombone" really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. This is source of frustration for our first trombonist, who (with justification) believes that contemporary tenor trombone parts routinely are too low. Perhaps this is because we tend to learn it as a bass clef instrument now, even though traditionally it most certainly is not. I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, I think this all is part of the homogification of trombone sound. My preference is a brighter trombone sound easily distingushable from a french horn or euphonium, but (at least a few years ago) all the trombonists seemed to be striving for the same darkness as those other instruments. In that world, large bores and large mouthpieces are the order of the day, and the difference between tenor and bass is completely blurred. But it was not always thus, and the re-emergence of the alto trombone I hope may signal a re-emergence of differentiated trombone sounds in general as an ideal. Yin/yang. In my personal case, my bass trombone part calls for sustained, exposed pedal F's at ppp dynamic. While this note is technically equally possible on the tenor/bass instrument the 2nd player is playing, only the bass trombone player is living his life for the chance to play this note. The difference between the bass and the tenor trombone is as much attitude as it is axe. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, "tenor trombone" really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. FWIW, at the time I wrote my book, the alto trombone was completely out of the picture, though a handful of European trombonists were still using them (same thing applies to cl. in C, wh is also now making a comeback). At the other end of the scale, I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, and I don't write for it specifically unless I need the low B natural. For the same reason, though, it doesn't bother me at all if a Btrb plays a 3d trb. part, and I'm sure that are some that implicitly expect a bass trombone there. Another inst. more frequently seen nowadays is the Cbtrb, especially the one in non-transposing F w. 2 or 3 low triggers. Now *there's* an instrument that really sounds different from the tenor trombone, and to me the ideal trb. section (for new works, of course) would be 2 trb and 1 cbtrb. An interesting case is Berg's 1929 _Three Pieces for Orchestra_. Berg asks for 3 tenors and one bass trombone, but in a footnote to the instrument list, Heinz Erich Apostel says that the first trombone part was originally written in alto clef, but changed to tenor clef in the published part w. the composer's blessing. Apostel goes on to say that the part lies so high that it might be better played on an alto trombone or an Eb tenor trumpet--but then at reh. no. 155 Berg asks the first trombone (also the 2d and 3d) to play a louder-than-ff D below the bass staff. Berg specifically expects a "Pedalton," but I don't think any trombonist at all these days would play it that way, but would use the F trigger. Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
At 6:46 PM + 6/21/06, Robert Patterson wrote: > I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Yes, it is fairly recently that alto has come back into use, as part of the performance practice movement to recapture the original sounds (at least in part). Rotary valve trumpets, with their very different leadpipe dimensions, are another example. But one must keep in mind that even the tenor trombones were small bore (aka "pea-shooter"). My father bought me a used early-20th century tenor when I was in high school in the '50s (when you had to be careful that you didn't get stuck with a "high-pitch" used band instrument!). The large 8-H and 88-H Conns and equivalent makes with half-inch or more bores didn't exist until, I think, the mid-20th century. Conn was certainly making Eb altos in the mid-1960s, when I got mine. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Sorry, I meant to say that the change over to tenor was more or less complete by the time we get to Tchaik or so. He certainly was writing for two tenor trombones, and a bunch of the French composers even before him were writing for three tenors. As you implied, it was a fashion change that came about slowly, and sooner in some parts than in others. And yes, you are right that most of the old parts were played on tenor trombone for most of the 20th century, with alto trombone making somewhat of a comeback for the older repertoire recently. Even twenty years ago, when I started, Brahms was mostly being played on tenor trombone on the first parts, whereas most of the major orchestras use alto now. And that is GREAT that you are writing modern works for alto trombone! Thank you for the clarification. As I said, I am not really an expert on the literature - I just hear the guys I play with talking about it, and see the parts. Christopher On Jun 21, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
> > I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra > sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to > Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
No, I am not sure. I don't know about the scores, though we had established that the clefs in the score and parts might not agree. But the parts I've seen are mostly in alto clef for the 1st trombone (at least, the editions I tend to get in the small orchestras I play with on occasion.) It is possible that I have seen early, or late, editions that are not normal. I have also played some versions of some works in one clef, while another version is in another clef. Sometimes I get a movement from one publisher, and another movement from another publisher, possibly because the conductor liked some aspect of another edition. Perhaps a later edition was correcting sloppy decisions in the originals (like, for all I know, Shostakovich fully expected the parts to be copied in the correct clef, and never verified that some music preparation person had duplicated his clefs exactly as he had written them in the score.) I think some of these questions are best left to specialists. I am only conjecturing at this point as to the reasons behind these things. My friend who has played first trombone in the Montreal Symphony Orchestra says that he fully expects first trombone parts to appear in alto clef, up until the 20th century, and would be severely put out if some modern edition showed up on the stand with the wrong clef. There are a whole set of cues that he gets from the notation that pertain to style and instrument selection, that if they are missing, might confuse the decisions he has to make. This topic has come up before, and regulars on the list know that I set great stock in providing those cues as accurately as I can, whatever the style is. There are certain expectations, and going with them or intentionally going against them will have an effect on the performance. About Shostakovich - it is entirely possible that he only used alto clef in his scores out of convenience. There are many examples of trombone parts doubled up on a single staff in the score, alto, tenor or bass clef, and it is possible that he didn't consider the choice of clef to be all that critical as long as the parts were in the correct clef. The fact that the parts DIDN'T get put into their normal clef might have nothing to do with him at all. Ah, well, there's a thesis topic for some Master's student in trombone performance! Christopher On Jun 21, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Lee Actor wrote: Are you sure about Tchaik? All the scores I have at hand (Sym. 4,5,6, Romeo and Juliet, Capriccio Italien) have 1st and 2nd trombones in tenor clef, 3rd in bass clef. Of course, the parts could be different. Odd bit of info about Shostakovich, if true (I can verify his scores are as you say). They had access to most scores, even contemporary Western ones. Strange. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto clef. I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what the players see (one of the few exceptions to the "score matches parts in all ways" rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be reproduced that way in authentic editions. A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for new editions of these composers' works. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Are you sure about Tchaik? All the scores I have at hand (Sym. 4,5,6, Romeo and Juliet, Capriccio Italien) have 1st and 2nd trombones in tenor clef, 3rd in bass clef. Of course, the parts could be different. Odd bit of info about Shostakovich, if true (I can verify his scores are as you say). They had access to most scores, even contemporary Western ones. Strange. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com > > I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra > sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to > Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor > trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto > clef. > > I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what > the players see (one of the few exceptions to the "score matches parts > in all ways" rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass > instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be > reproduced that way in authentic editions. > > A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian > music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher > that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this > misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty > years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and > bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously > an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for > new editions of these composers' works. > > Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto clef. I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what the players see (one of the few exceptions to the "score matches parts in all ways" rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be reproduced that way in authentic editions. A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for new editions of these composers' works. Christopher On Jun 20, 2006, at 6:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recent scores often put 1st and 2nd on one stave in tenor, but parts are alto, tenor, bass, respectively. RBH - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:45 Subject: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs To: finale@shsu.edu > Every time I've played the Schumann or Schubert symphonies, the > parts were > 1st-Alto Clef, 2nd-Tenor Clef, and 3rd-Bass Clef. The copies I > have at home of > these parts are all like that. The score might lump the first 2 > parts in 1 clef > for space-saving or to suggest some kind of group-treatment, but > that's just > my speculation. > > -Steve S > NYC > > In a message dated 6/19/06 1:01:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > << OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the > score survives, in > copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A > and T > on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. > When I > extract the parts, should the tenor trombone part be: > 1) in the alto clef, because that's what it is in the score. > 2) in the tenor clef, because that's the norm for > 19th-c. tenor > trombone parts. > 3) in bass clef, because that's what's usual today. > NOTE: I am trying to be "authentic" here, so, e.g., the > clarinets are > getting parts for cl. in C, as per the score. >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Recent scores often put 1st and 2nd on one stave in tenor, but parts are alto, tenor, bass, respectively. RBH- Original Message -From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:45Subject: [Finale] Re: trombone clefsTo: finale@shsu.edu> Every time I've played the Schumann or Schubert symphonies, the > parts were > 1st-Alto Clef, 2nd-Tenor Clef, and 3rd-Bass Clef. The copies I > have at home of > these parts are all like that. The score might lump the first 2 > parts in 1 clef > for space-saving or to suggest some kind of group-treatment, but > that's just > my speculation.> > -Steve S> NYC> > In a message dated 6/19/06 1:01:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:> << OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the > score survives, in > copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A > and T > on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. > When I > extract the parts, should the tenor trombone part be:> 1) in the alto clef, because that's what it is in the score.> 2) in the tenor clef, because that's the norm for > 19th-c. tenor > trombone parts.> 3) in bass clef, because that's what's usual today.> NOTE: I am trying to be "authentic" here, so, e.g., the > clarinets are > getting parts for cl. in C, as per the score. >>> > ___> Finale mailing list> Finale@shsu.edu> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale> ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Every time I've played the Schumann or Schubert symphonies, the parts were 1st-Alto Clef, 2nd-Tenor Clef, and 3rd-Bass Clef. The copies I have at home of these parts are all like that. The score might lump the first 2 parts in 1 clef for space-saving or to suggest some kind of group-treatment, but that's just my speculation. -Steve S NYC In a message dated 6/19/06 1:01:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the score survives, in copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A and T on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. When I extract the parts, should the tenor trombone part be: 1) in the alto clef, because that's what it is in the score. 2) in the tenor clef, because that's the norm for 19th-c. tenor trombone parts. 3) in bass clef, because that's what's usual today. NOTE: I am trying to be "authentic" here, so, e.g., the clarinets are getting parts for cl. in C, as per the score. >> ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
