Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
timothy.price wrote: On Mar 14, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: reversing the mouthpiece *definitely* does. As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that ! But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and which you prefer would depend on the sound you want. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
At 10:58 AM -0400 3/15/10, dhbailey wrote: timothy.price wrote: As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that ! But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and which you prefer would depend on the sound you want. Gee, do you get a different sound on C trumpet than you do on Bb trumpet? How about Flügelhorn? (Sorry; tongue very definitely in cheek--and it's hard to triple-tongue that way! But this is almost starting to sound like a P.D.Q. Bach routine!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
John Howell wrote: At 10:58 AM -0400 3/15/10, dhbailey wrote: timothy.price wrote: As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that ! But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and which you prefer would depend on the sound you want. Gee, do you get a different sound on C trumpet than you do on Bb trumpet? How about Flügelhorn? (Sorry; tongue very definitely in cheek--and it's hard to triple-tongue that way! But this is almost starting to sound like a P.D.Q. Bach routine!) John I've been about ready to whine about this thread, too, but I realize that the best remedy is to start a new thread. Since you recently confessed you don't use Finale, you might not be the best candidate,* although that should not keep you from improving this conversation. *Of course, I don't use Sibelius, and I spout off on that forum constantly. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Yeah, I just tried to go Ta-ka-da, ta-ka-da with my tongue in my cheek ... came out sounding something like a rat going down a sewer pipe ... Dean On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Ray Horton wrote: John Howell wrote: (Sorry; tongue very definitely in cheek--and it's hard to triple- tongue that way! But this is almost starting to sound like a P.D.Q. Bach routine!) John Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale I have opened my soul/To let in the warmth of sound/Now my saving grace Adrian Estabrook, author Dean M. Estabrook http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Interestingly enough the piece for which I am considering this effect has 1 D-trumpet (or E-flat if the player prefers) and 2 fluegelhorns. We'll see if I wind up giveng the effect to any or all of them. ajr John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 10:58 AM -0400 3/15/10, dhbailey wrote: timothy.price wrote: As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that ! But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and which you prefer would depend on the sound you want. Gee, do you get a different sound on C trumpet than you do on Bb trumpet? How about Flügelhorn? (Sorry; tongue very definitely in cheek--and it's hard to triple-tongue that way! But this is almost starting to sound like a P.D.Q. Bach routine!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
John Howell wrote: At 10:58 AM -0400 3/15/10, dhbailey wrote: timothy.price wrote: As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that ! But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and which you prefer would depend on the sound you want. Gee, do you get a different sound on C trumpet than you do on Bb trumpet? How about Flügelhorn? (Sorry; tongue very definitely in cheek--and it's hard to triple-tongue that way! But this is almost starting to sound like a P.D.Q. Bach routine!) John I know you're joking around, but when I remove my mouthpiece and blow through my trumpet I get one sound. When I leave the mouthpiece in place as normal and blow through the mouthpiece (not vibrating my lips) I get a different sound, and when I invert the mouthpiece and blow, as Robert Patterson has suggested, I get a third sound. The inverted mouthpiece gives the tone a harder, brighter timbre. As a composer, I might want to take advantage of those differences in timbre. Just another instance where a composer should actually have physical experience (either through doing or through listening to someone else do it) with what he/she is asking in the score and not blindly working off of an untested concept. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
When we used this technique, the players simply blew through the instruments with the mouthpieces in place. It was audible from the audience. Cheers, Lawrence -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Robert Patterson wrote: On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:47 PM, dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: Perhaps the effect differs with different numbers of people doing it, but I've heard it done quite effectively without anybody reversing mouthpieces. So help me to understand. You are sitting in the audience of a large hall listening to an ensemble with a large number of players. How do you know whether they were reversing their mouthpieces? I ask in all seriousness, because many players do it automatically. The fact is, as [snip] I was watching them -- and some of them were my private students (it was an All-State piece) and we had discussed what the instructions said, which was remove mouthpiece and blow air through the instrument. So I knew in advance what was coming, and then watching the concert, there were no reversed mouthpieces, which would have required a hand up near the mouth in addition to the hand holding the instrument -- quite an easy thing to see, even if it were done in a large symphony hall by professionals. The posture when holding an instrument in one hand and a mouthpiece in the other hand so that the two line up is quite different than the posture when holding the instrument in the traditional way. Try it and you'll see that you quite recognizably have changed your posture. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
At 9:52 PM -0600 3/13/10, Robert Patterson wrote: So help me to understand. You are sitting in the audience of a large hall listening to an ensemble with a large number of players. How do you know whether they were reversing their mouthpieces? I ask in all seriousness, because many players do it automatically. The fact is, as a player you have to do *something* if you want the effect to be heard, because freely blowing through the instrument does not produce enough sound to be heard over much more than a harp, and then at short distance. So you have to leak or obstruct to create a sound. Reversing the mouthpiece provides better control of both timbre and dynamic. Not meaning to be argumentative, but isn't this a composer's problem and not the player's? If a composer calls for an unusual effect and it doesn't work out the way he thought/hoped/imagined/guessed that it would, isn't that his or her lack of skill and knowledge on display, just as it would be if he tried to write for lute with brass choir? Just curious. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
All depends on who wins the power game. Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com - Original Message - From: John Howell john.how...@vt.edu To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments At 9:52 PM -0600 3/13/10, Robert Patterson wrote: So help me to understand. You are sitting in the audience of a large hall listening to an ensemble with a large number of players. How do you know whether they were reversing their mouthpieces? I ask in all seriousness, because many players do it automatically. The fact is, as a player you have to do *something* if you want the effect to be heard, because freely blowing through the instrument does not produce enough sound to be heard over much more than a harp, and then at short distance. So you have to leak or obstruct to create a sound. Reversing the mouthpiece provides better control of both timbre and dynamic. Not meaning to be argumentative, but isn't this a composer's problem and not the player's? If a composer calls for an unusual effect and it doesn't work out the way he thought/hoped/imagined/guessed that it would, isn't that his or her lack of skill and knowledge on display, just as it would be if he tried to write for lute with brass choir? Just curious. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Aaron Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: All depends on who wins the power game. As a composer visiting for a couple of days to a professional ensemble that plays together all the time, you can't win the power game, and you best not try. Orchestras are one of the most tribal institutions I know. They may have fierce internal squabbles, but nothing unifies them like an attack by an outsider. This *is* the composer's problem and not the player's. Leaving aside the question of whether blowing air through the instrument in itself produces enough air to be heard, reversing the mouthpiece *definitely* does. It is a definite instruction that will be followed and will produce excellent results without any further discussion. I guess all I'm saying is I recommend it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Mar 14, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: reversing the mouthpiece *definitely* does. As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that ! timothy.key.price timothy.key.pr...@valley.net ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:17 AM, John Howell wrote: ... just as it would be if he tried to write for lute with brass choir? That sounds like a challenge! mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On 14 Mar 2010 at 13:17, John Howell wrote: lute with brass choir This made me laugh out loud, and start imagining impossible ensembles. I started with the bass lute with brass choir, and turned it into solo lute on-stage with antiphonal brass choirs in the side galleries. Other than mixing instruments with completely contradictory sound profiles, what other kinds of things would make for incompatibility? Other than mixing Western and non-Western instruments with different tuning systems, I'm coming up blank. I must say, though, sometimes it's quite revealing to play a piece of music on the wrong instrument. For my junior recital in college, my program included the Berg Sonata, and at the time I was also doing some work on fortepiano, so I gave the Berg a try on the fortepiano. It was quite illuminating, in fact, as the clarity of the bass made for some interesting sounds. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On 3/14/2010 1:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Mar 2010 at 13:17, John Howell wrote: lute with brass choir This made me laugh out loud, and start imagining impossible ensembles. I started with the bass lute with brass choir, and turned it into solo lute on-stage with antiphonal brass choirs in the side galleries. It can't be (much) worse than the PDQ Bach piece that features Lute and bagpipes in the same ensemble. The lute is a nice instrument. Very pretty with a pleasant sound. Think about it while you're listening to the bagpipes... cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
At 4:44 PM -0400 3/14/10, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Mar 2010 at 13:17, John Howell wrote: lute with brass choir This made me laugh out loud, and start imagining impossible ensembles. I started with the bass lute with brass choir, and turned it into solo lute on-stage with antiphonal brass choirs in the side galleries. And it would be worse with a clavichord, the only instrument that can be drowned out by a lute! Other than mixing instruments with completely contradictory sound profiles, what other kinds of things would make for incompatibility? Some of the things that we hear every day on recordings, like bass flute (a favorite of Mancini) with jazz band. Probably similar with John Williams scores. We can fix it in the mix! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Mar 14, 2010, at 5:16 PM, dershem wrote: On 3/14/2010 1:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Mar 2010 at 13:17, John Howell wrote: lute with brass choir This made me laugh out loud, and start imagining impossible ensembles. I started with the bass lute with brass choir, and turned it into solo lute on-stage with antiphonal brass choirs in the side galleries. It can't be (much) worse than the PDQ Bach piece that features Lute and bagpipes in the same ensemble. I publish a piece by Orlando García for mandolin and tuba. His basic trick is to keep them out of each other's way, and the occasional overwhelming of the former by the latter is part of the esthetic--like an elephant trampling through the parlor. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Well, you would need a text indication as well! X heads are common for all kinds of unpitched sounds on many instruments, but you need to say what you mean. Christopher On Sat Mar 13, at SaturdayMar 13 12:17 AM, Rich Caldwell wrote: In this score X noteheads and diamonds are used for other things in both the brass and woodwinds, so that might be confusing. I don't have the Stone (gasp), so I don't know what he shows. On Mar 12, 2010, at 8:56 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: I've seen X heads for solid rhythmic values and diamonds for half and whole notes, with cresc. and dim. wedges. No need for a special clef, and it usually happens on the middle line of whatever clef we already happen to be in (trombones!) Christopher On 12-Mar-10, at 12-Mar-10 5:56 PM, Rich Caldwell wrote: The large orchestral piece I'm working on now calls for this effect through most of it, in all of the brass and woodwinds (w/o mouthpieces or reeds depending on instrument), mostly p or mp. He notated this in his manuscript with a clef (since it's large sections, not just a note here and there). I've never come across this before, so I simply followed his notation and created a custom clef as a vertical rectangle, sort of like a percussion rectangular clef, but larger. The notes just lie on the middle line, as there are no pitches specified. Since this has coincidentally come up today, I figure I should ask, is this is a notation others have seen? On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Guy Hayden wrote: Not being a brass player, I find this suggestion difficult to understand. Can you describe it a bit more clearly? Do you blow across the wrong end of the mouthpiece like blowing across a beer bottle? What I cannot figure is the idea of inverting the mouthpiece. Aren't they the same all the way around? Do you mean reverse the mouthpiece? What I don't understand is a trumpet which is totally silent when someone takes the mouthpiece off and simply blows into the mouthpiece receiver -- I've got a $4000 C trumpet and a $3000 Bb trumpet and a $1500 flugelhorn and they ALL make a windy sound when I blow into them with enough energy. There's no need to use a mouthpiece at all. If you do as has been suggested and reverse the mouthpiece so you're blowing into the backbore and the cup is placed over the receiver you don't have to work as hard to get a windy sound, but the pitch of that windy sound is different than what is produced by simply blowing into the receiver. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
OK, thanks. I figured reverse was the thing to do but was not really certain. Guy Hayden -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of dhbailey Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:32 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments There's no need to use a mouthpiece at all. If you do as has been suggested and reverse the mouthpiece so you're blowing into the backbore and the cup is placed over the receiver you don't have to work as hard to get a windy sound, but the pitch of that windy sound is different than what is produced by simply blowing into the receiver. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Mar 12, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: I clearly remember what our principal trumpet said one time to a composer who had asked fro the effect (n the middle of rehearsal in front of the entire orch. and conductor). You know, I have spent a lot of money to have a trumpet that doesn't make any noise when I just blow air through it. Boy would I have snapped at that! viz: Are you saying the effect is impossible? If so, I can cite numerous recordings from major composers proving you wrong. If it's not impossible, then what are you saying? That it's beneath your dignity, or that you are personally incapable of performing it? I *thought* I was writing for a professional. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Andrew Stiller kalli...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Are you saying the effect is impossible? If so, I can cite numerous recordings from major composers proving you wrong. If it's not impossible, then what are you saying? That it's beneath your dignity, or that you are personally incapable of performing it? I *thought* I was writing for a professional. That is a scene I would have enjoyed watching. I hasten to add it would almost certainly have ended very badly for the performance of your piece, but it would definitely have made for some grand theater. The effect does *not* produce enough sound to project off the stage unless you do something besides merely blow air through the instrument. Inverting the mouthpiece is imo the most effective way to make it project, and it has the added bonus of being easy to control in a wide dynamic range. Obviously ymmv. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 12, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: I clearly remember what our principal trumpet said one time to a composer who had asked fro the effect (n the middle of rehearsal in front of the entire orch. and conductor). You know, I have spent a lot of money to have a trumpet that doesn't make any noise when I just blow air through it. Boy would I have snapped at that! viz: Are you saying the effect is impossible? If so, I can cite numerous recordings from major composers proving you wrong. If it's not impossible, then what are you saying? That it's beneath your dignity, or that you are personally incapable of performing it? I *thought* I was writing for a professional. Amen to that, Andrew. And then all you'd have to do is to borrow his silent trumpet and show him how to get the effect. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Robert Patterson wrote: On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Andrew Stiller kalli...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Are you saying the effect is impossible? If so, I can cite numerous recordings from major composers proving you wrong. If it's not impossible, then what are you saying? That it's beneath your dignity, or that you are personally incapable of performing it? I *thought* I was writing for a professional. That is a scene I would have enjoyed watching. I hasten to add it would almost certainly have ended very badly for the performance of your piece, but it would definitely have made for some grand theater. The effect does *not* produce enough sound to project off the stage unless you do something besides merely blow air through the instrument. Inverting the mouthpiece is imo the most effective way to make it project, and it has the added bonus of being easy to control in a wide dynamic range. Obviously ymmv. Perhaps the effect differs with different numbers of people doing it, but I've heard it done quite effectively without anybody reversing mouthpieces. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:47 PM, dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: Perhaps the effect differs with different numbers of people doing it, but I've heard it done quite effectively without anybody reversing mouthpieces. So help me to understand. You are sitting in the audience of a large hall listening to an ensemble with a large number of players. How do you know whether they were reversing their mouthpieces? I ask in all seriousness, because many players do it automatically. The fact is, as a player you have to do *something* if you want the effect to be heard, because freely blowing through the instrument does not produce enough sound to be heard over much more than a harp, and then at short distance. So you have to leak or obstruct to create a sound. Reversing the mouthpiece provides better control of both timbre and dynamic. I feel I should come to the defense of my colleague. He was not being particularly uncooperative. I'm fairly certain his comments were the result of being asked to make more sound with the effect. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Sat Mar 13, at SaturdayMar 13 10:52 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:47 PM, dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: Perhaps the effect differs with different numbers of people doing it, but I've heard it done quite effectively without anybody reversing mouthpieces. So help me to understand. You are sitting in the audience of a large hall listening to an ensemble with a large number of players. How do you know whether they were reversing their mouthpieces? You look at them. Maybe horn players can keep their mouthpieces in their mouths with no hands, but I assure you that trumpet, trombone and tuba mouthpieces have to be held if they are reversed. It's easy to see, even from the cheap seats. Reversing the mouthpiece provides better control of both timbre and dynamic. Could be. But I have both done it and heard it done more often NOT reversed, and it was effective, which concurs with David B. I feel I should come to the defense of my colleague. He was not being particularly uncooperative. I'm fairly certain his comments were the result of being asked to make more sound with the effect. Heh, heh! Really? If he were making a joke, it's reasonably funny, but if it was a serious complaint, he's just being a poo-poo-head. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Amen to that, Andrew. And then all you'd have to do is to borrow his silent trumpet and show him how to get the effect. Reminds me of the story I heard where Andrés Segovia told Heitor Villa-Lobos that something he was asking for couldn't be done, whereupon V-L picked up the guitar and showed AS how to do it. Thank you all for your replies--I think I know enough now to incorporate the air-through-the-brass effect should I need it. Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com David Bailey: ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
This is not that unusual an effect for brass players. What composers (including Ligeti) seem not to realize is that brass instruments are designed *not to make noise* when you blow air through them, which tends to defeat the purpose. The proper way to get the desired effect is to remove the mouthpiece, invert it, and blow the air thru the inverted mouthpiece across the opening of the mouthpipe. The only caveat is you have to give the player time to take the mouthpiece out and invert it. Any dynamic from pp to ff is possible, but playing ff requires lots of air, so there is no way for a single player to sustain a note for very long. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Robert: This is not that unusual an effect for brass players. What composers (including Ligeti) seem not to realize is that brass instruments are designed *not to make noise* when you blow air through them, which tends to defeat the purpose. Me: But just as the bumblebee that theoretically can't fly flies just fine, the effect seems to work. I suspect what's happening is that the players are making all the noise in their mouths/lips and using the instruments, in effect, as megaphones... But that's just my guess... As for others, one that comes to mind is Steve Winteregg, who uses it in his piece TGV to imitate the sound of a train's air brakes. Neal Gittleman ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Some years ago I added that effect to the start of a piece we were performing in a concert. The concert was being recorded. The audience heard the effect, the cloth-eared recording engineer did not and failed to switch on his equipment until someone pointed out to him that we had started. Cheers, Lawrence -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
The large orchestral piece I'm working on now calls for this effect through most of it, in all of the brass and woodwinds (w/o mouthpieces or reeds depending on instrument), mostly p or mp. He notated this in his manuscript with a clef (since it's large sections, not just a note here and there). I've never come across this before, so I simply followed his notation and created a custom clef as a vertical rectangle, sort of like a percussion rectangular clef, but larger. The notes just lie on the middle line, as there are no pitches specified. Since this has coincidentally come up today, I figure I should ask, is this is a notation others have seen? On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Neal Gittleman nealg...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Me: But just as the bumblebee that theoretically can't fly flies just fine, the effect seems to work. I suspect what's happening is that the players are making all the noise in their mouths/lips and using the instruments, in Speaking only from personal experience (which extends to no more than a handful of times having to do it), it worked because the brass players knew to invert their mouthpieces without being told. (Or rather, enough did so that the effect was audible in the audience.) I clearly remember what our principal trumpet said one time to a composer who had asked fro the effect (n the middle of rehearsal in front of the entire orch. and conductor). You know, I have spent a lot of money to have a trumpet that doesn't make any noise when I just blow air through it. There was awkward silence from the composer in return. I submit that no composer wants to be in that position, esp. with a professional orchestra. Later I suggested the inverted mouthpiece to the trumpeter and there was no more problem. If you want to look like you know what you are talking about, specify inverting the mouthpiece. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
I prefer the notation suggested in Kurt Stone's Music Notation in the 20th Century on p. 186 at the bottom. It's not particular convenient to render in Finale but it can be done. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Rich Caldwell caldw...@shypuppy.net wrote: The large orchestral piece I'm working on now calls for this effect through most of it, in all of the brass and woodwinds (w/o mouthpieces or reeds depending on instrument), mostly p or mp. He notated this in his manuscript with a clef (since it's large sections, not just a note here and there). I've never come across this before, so I simply followed his notation and created a custom clef as a vertical rectangle, sort of like a percussion rectangular clef, but larger. The notes just lie on the middle line, as there are no pitches specified. Since this has coincidentally come up today, I figure I should ask, is this is a notation others have seen? On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
At 5:30 PM -0600 3/12/10, Robert Patterson wrote: I prefer the notation suggested in Kurt Stone's Music Notation in the 20th Century on p. 186 at the bottom. It's not particular convenient to render in Finale but it can be done. One has to wonder about some composers, whether they actually know the special effects they ask for, having heard them; whether they are willing to ask for something impossible and risk making fools of themselves out of ignorance; or whether they just think they're too important for anyone to question. My only helpful advice: If in doubt, ask someone who plays the instrument to try it. I suspect that discovering a really new and neat special effect will be more serendipitous than planned. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Without wishing to appear contrarian, but speaking again from personal experience -- having written multiple pieces that employ this effect -- it is perfectly possible to make pitchless, audible (if faint) sounds by blowing air (usually augmented by a slight whistling effect) through a brass instrument without buzzing the lips. The instruction blow air usually suffices. It's a very common effect. It sounds like the trumpet player in Robert's anecdote was being deliberately difficult/obtuse. I've never seen anyone invert the mouthpiece as Robert suggests. That seems like it would generate a different kind of sound, but now I'm eager to have my band try it out! Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 12 Mar 2010, at 6:27 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Neal Gittleman nealg...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Me: But just as the bumblebee that theoretically can't fly flies just fine, the effect seems to work. I suspect what's happening is that the players are making all the noise in their mouths/lips and using the instruments, in Speaking only from personal experience (which extends to no more than a handful of times having to do it), it worked because the brass players knew to invert their mouthpieces without being told. (Or rather, enough did so that the effect was audible in the audience.) I clearly remember what our principal trumpet said one time to a composer who had asked fro the effect (n the middle of rehearsal in front of the entire orch. and conductor). You know, I have spent a lot of money to have a trumpet that doesn't make any noise when I just blow air through it. There was awkward silence from the composer in return. I submit that no composer wants to be in that position, esp. with a professional orchestra. Later I suggested the inverted mouthpiece to the trumpeter and there was no more problem. If you want to look like you know what you are talking about, specify inverting the mouthpiece. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On 3/12/2010 10:55 AM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com heck - half of the brass players I know do this. The hard part is getting them to play *on* pitch! Seriously, though, the limits depend on the player. I can recall seeing Bill Watrous speak through his trombone. cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Not being a brass player, I find this suggestion difficult to understand. Can you describe it a bit more clearly? Do you blow across the wrong end of the mouthpiece like blowing across a beer bottle? What I cannot figure is the idea of inverting the mouthpiece. Aren't they the same all the way around? Do you mean reverse the mouthpiece? Guy Hayden -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Patterson Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 3:41 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments This is not that unusual an effect for brass players. What composers (including Ligeti) seem not to realize is that brass instruments are designed *not to make noise* when you blow air through them, which tends to defeat the purpose. The proper way to get the desired effect is to remove the mouthpiece, invert it, and blow the air thru the inverted mouthpiece across the opening of the mouthpipe. The only caveat is you have to give the player time to take the mouthpiece out and invert it. Any dynamic from pp to ff is possible, but playing ff requires lots of air, so there is no way for a single player to sustain a note for very long. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
I am completely fascinated by Atmospheres. I think my chances of ever having the opportunity to conduct this work are very slim. Nevertheless I want to know about it. I welcome comments for anyone and everyone who has ever performed it. Guy Hayden -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of dershem Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:05 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments On 3/12/2010 10:55 AM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Darcy is correct, both about the ability to make sounds through a brass instrument with air, when one desires to, and about the probable intent of the trumpet player in question. Back when the Louisville Orchestra was in the forefront of performance of new music for orchestra (days past, unfortunately), we would see this indication fairly often. It is quite easy to make a variety of different sounds through the horn with breath alone. It is easier to make louder sounds with the inverted mouthpiece.With either, a long sustained sound is not practical by one player, but is by a section. I have seen players automatically attempt to invert the mouthpiece to do this, but there often isn't time in the music to do so. One of my favorite works for good, effective orchestral application of a variety of brass techniques is Donald Erb's The Seventh Trumpet. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra Darcy James Argue wrote: Without wishing to appear contrarian, but speaking again from personal experience -- having written multiple pieces that employ this effect -- it is perfectly possible to make pitchless, audible (if faint) sounds by blowing air (usually augmented by a slight whistling effect) through a brass instrument without buzzing the lips. The instruction blow air usually suffices. It's a very common effect. It sounds like the trumpet player in Robert's anecdote was being deliberately difficult/obtuse. I've never seen anyone invert the mouthpiece as Robert suggests. That seems like it would generate a different kind of sound, but now I'm eager to have my band try it out! Cheers, - DJA - ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
I've done this a lot, and all I and my colleagues do is make a hissing sound with our tongue or lips when blowing. It's true that the instrument itself does not make much noise unless you do something other than blow air. Robert's other points stand, but nobody I know takes off or inverts the mouthpiece unless the directions say to do that. Christopher On 12-Mar-10, at 12-Mar-10 3:41 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: This is not that unusual an effect for brass players. What composers (including Ligeti) seem not to realize is that brass instruments are designed *not to make noise* when you blow air through them, which tends to defeat the purpose. The proper way to get the desired effect is to remove the mouthpiece, invert it, and blow the air thru the inverted mouthpiece across the opening of the mouthpipe. The only caveat is you have to give the player time to take the mouthpiece out and invert it. Any dynamic from pp to ff is possible, but playing ff requires lots of air, so there is no way for a single player to sustain a note for very long. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
I've seen X heads for solid rhythmic values and diamonds for half and whole notes, with cresc. and dim. wedges. No need for a special clef, and it usually happens on the middle line of whatever clef we already happen to be in (trombones!) Christopher On 12-Mar-10, at 12-Mar-10 5:56 PM, Rich Caldwell wrote: The large orchestral piece I'm working on now calls for this effect through most of it, in all of the brass and woodwinds (w/o mouthpieces or reeds depending on instrument), mostly p or mp. He notated this in his manuscript with a clef (since it's large sections, not just a note here and there). I've never come across this before, so I simply followed his notation and created a custom clef as a vertical rectangle, sort of like a percussion rectangular clef, but larger. The notes just lie on the middle line, as there are no pitches specified. Since this has coincidentally come up today, I figure I should ask, is this is a notation others have seen? On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
dershem wrote: Seriously, though, the limits depend on the player. I can recall seeing Bill Watrous speak through his trombone. cd None of these effects are as resonant as actually _playing_ the instrument, though, and can fool the player, and possibly the conductor, as to how far the sound carries. Years ago we performed, then recorded a work called Forest Music by Paul Chihara. In the middle of the work the brass players, unaccompanied, individually recite various overlapping poems about trees through their instruments. (I remember the tubist is directed to recite I think that I shall never see / a tuba lovely as a tree, but most were more serious, as if that makes any difference.) During that section my parents in the audience said they could hear nothing. One of our members caught the radio broadcast of the concert - nearly a minute of dead air in the middle of the piece. We recorded the work - I assume the recording engineer (Andy Kazdin from Columbia Records) got some sound down. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On 3/12/2010 7:26 PM, Ray Horton wrote: dershem wrote: Seriously, though, the limits depend on the player. I can recall seeing Bill Watrous speak through his trombone. cd None of these effects are as resonant as actually _playing_ the instrument, though, and can fool the player, and possibly the conductor, as to how far the sound carries. Years ago we performed, then recorded a work called Forest Music by Paul Chihara. In the middle of the work the brass players, unaccompanied, individually recite various overlapping poems about trees through their instruments. (I remember the tubist is directed to recite I think that I shall never see / a tuba lovely as a tree, but most were more serious, as if that makes any difference.) During that section my parents in the audience said they could hear nothing. One of our members caught the radio broadcast of the concert - nearly a minute of dead air in the middle of the piece. We recorded the work - I assume the recording engineer (Andy Kazdin from Columbia Records) got some sound down. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra That could be fun, but Bill did more of a ... controlled vowel movement, changing the timbre of the sounds he played to sound like speech. He was creating the buzz, but the pitch was highly variable, and very strongly modulated. He did the beginning of MacArthur's retirement speech. cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
dershem wrote: Seriously, though, the limits depend on the player. I can recall seeing Bill Watrous speak through his trombone. cd .. That could be fun, but Bill did more of a ... controlled vowel movement, changing the timbre of the sounds he played to sound like speech. He was creating the buzz, but the pitch was highly variable, and very strongly modulated. He did the beginning of MacArthur's retirement speech. cd Yeah, played vowel sounds are a different deal entirely. Stuart Dempster and Vinko Globokar are the pioneers. The assumption is that the basic brass sound is ah (or oh), and that one can, with change of mouth shape, produce all the vowel sounds. Watrous was playing for you a few bars of this classic work: http://artofthestates.org/cgi-bin/piece.pl?pid=11 My guess, is, that like me, Bill has only mastered a few bars of the piece, as his priorities are elsewhere. But I could be wrong. I heard him do a nice bit of multiphonics, years ago. Here is a 2006 article on my good friend Stuart Dempster at age 70. Stu commissioned (really co-composed, from what I understand) and championed General Speech back in the late 60's: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=31594 RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
On 3/12/2010 8:12 PM, Ray Horton wrote: dershem wrote: Seriously, though, the limits depend on the player. I can recall seeing Bill Watrous speak through his trombone. cd .. That could be fun, but Bill did more of a ... controlled vowel movement, changing the timbre of the sounds he played to sound like speech. He was creating the buzz, but the pitch was highly variable, and very strongly modulated. He did the beginning of MacArthur's retirement speech. cd Yeah, played vowel sounds are a different deal entirely. Stuart Dempster and Vinko Globokar are the pioneers. The assumption is that the basic brass sound is ah (or oh), and that one can, with change of mouth shape, produce all the vowel sounds. Watrous was playing for you a few bars of this classic work: http://artofthestates.org/cgi-bin/piece.pl?pid=11 My guess, is, that like me, Bill has only mastered a few bars of the piece, as his priorities are elsewhere. But I could be wrong. I heard him do a nice bit of multiphonics, years ago. Here is a 2006 article on my good friend Stuart Dempster at age 70. Stu commissioned (really co-composed, from what I understand) and championed General Speech back in the late 60's: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=31594 RBH Bill gave full credit to Stu when he did the schtick. He spent a couple of minutes of a clinic talking through the horn to answer questions, and then had to stop to crack up. cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
You take the mouthpiece out of the receptacle and invert it so that the small end is pointing at your lips and the large end is covering the end of the leadpipe (but not touching it). Then you close your lips over the small end of the mouthpiece and blow through it. You basically get the same effect as blowing through the instrument but with much more volume possibility. At soft dynamics it is pretty much the same effect (but with projection), but then you also can bring it up fortissimo. Speaking about French horns, which is what I play, you could probably get a nice effect by blowing through the instrument normally, provided it is a very small room with an instrumentation like horn and harp. (Or if, as I wonder if Darcy does, the instruments have microphones.) In an orchestra, the sound will never carry past the stage (at least on French horns), unless you invert the mouthpiece. Our principal trumpet has been known to express opinions. What principal trumpet doesn't? But his point was extremely well taken. In an orchestral setting without microphones, simply blowing through the instruments does not project any sound off the stage. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
In this score X noteheads and diamonds are used for other things in both the brass and woodwinds, so that might be confusing. I don't have the Stone (gasp), so I don't know what he shows. On Mar 12, 2010, at 8:56 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: I've seen X heads for solid rhythmic values and diamonds for half and whole notes, with cresc. and dim. wedges. No need for a special clef, and it usually happens on the middle line of whatever clef we already happen to be in (trombones!) Christopher On 12-Mar-10, at 12-Mar-10 5:56 PM, Rich Caldwell wrote: The large orchestral piece I'm working on now calls for this effect through most of it, in all of the brass and woodwinds (w/o mouthpieces or reeds depending on instrument), mostly p or mp. He notated this in his manuscript with a clef (since it's large sections, not just a note here and there). I've never come across this before, so I simply followed his notation and created a custom clef as a vertical rectangle, sort of like a percussion rectangular clef, but larger. The notes just lie on the middle line, as there are no pitches specified. Since this has coincidentally come up today, I figure I should ask, is this is a notation others have seen? On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: IIRC Ligeti calls on his brass players in Atmosphères to blow air through the instruments without any definite pitch or characteristic brass instrument sound. Does anyone here know of others who have done this, and what the limits are? (You'd think having been a brass player I'd know this, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments
Hi Robert, (Or if, as I wonder if Darcy does, the instruments have microphones.) Depends on the room. But granted, when we are playing unamplified, the room is generally pretty small. Blow air works fine, unamplified, in a space like the Jazz Gallery (which seats 75). Probably less well in a large concert hall. The Kronos Quartet concert I saw last night at Zankel Hall (all Terry Riley's music) opened with a new piece written for Kronos and the Young People's Chorus of New York City. The opening gesture had the chorus scratching the covers of their folders with their fingernails in a circular motion. This was audible! (Granted, it's possible the effect was slightly reinforced via Zankel's room mics. The amplification in that hall is very transparent, and Kronos's engineer is very good.) Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
