Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 14.03.2009 Christopher Smith wrote: Uh, not in the context we are talking about? A three quarter note pickup in 4/4? I DEFINITELY only want three beats in that bar, and preferably a quarter and a half, in that order. But that is not a measure, it is a partial measure, which is a difference. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 14.03.2009 Phil Daley wrote: This is *your* reaction, not one that is universally shared. As a player, if there are no notes in a particular measure, I would prefer to see just one rest taking up the whole measure. Sure, a whole rest, or a double whole in longer measures. But not a dotted rest, that is actually against all convention. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Of course, but that is not what the sentence to which I replied said! it said: As a player, if there are no notes in a particular measure, I would prefer to see just one rest taking up the whole measure. We have already seen the correct answer for a three beat pickup in 4/4 time - a quarter rest plus a half rest. RBH Christopher Smith wrote: Uh, not in the context we are talking about? A three quarter note pickup in 4/4? I DEFINITELY only want three beats in that bar, and preferably a quarter and a half, in that order. Christopher On Mar 13, 2009, at 10:46 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Yes - a whole rest. RBH Phil Daley wrote: At 3/13/2009 06:21 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 13 Mar 2009 at 16:18, Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! This is *your* reaction, not one that is universally shared. As a player, if there are no notes in a particular measure, I would prefer to see just one rest taking up the whole measure. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12.03.2009 David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. That's quite ok. On the other hand, some of us work for publishers, and some of them are interested in following the conventions. For those of us these books do count, even if eventually we may come to different conclusions for whatever reason. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 13.03.2009 dhbailey wrote: Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I am sure you can, but you will find that none of the big European publishers (I cannot say about American publishers) will ignore these conventions. No, there isn't a rule book, and things will change. But there is also no use in everyone having their own rules. I can tell you that dotted rests in some of the badly prepared computer editions I have used are very confusing to a lot of conventionally trained orchestral musicians. Add to that bad lighting in the opera pit and a dot is easily overlooked. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 13.03.2009 dhbailey wrote: Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I am sure you can, but you will find that none of the big European publishers (I cannot say about American publishers) will ignore these conventions. No, there isn't a rule book, and things will change. But there is also no use in everyone having their own rules. I can tell you that dotted rests in some of the badly prepared computer editions I have used are very confusing to a lot of conventionally trained orchestral musicians. Add to that bad lighting in the opera pit and a dot is easily overlooked. While I can easily accept your point concerning what publishers want (which is what engravers need to provide), I'm not so sure about your point regarding a dot being easily overlooked -- a dot after a rest is the same size as a dot after a note, and nobody says not to use dotted notes in music to be played in a badly lit pit. While it could be argued that holding the dotted note is made a bit more clear by the presence of the following note(s), the same should be possible with a dotted rest. The ease of seeing the dot is equally easy or difficult when following a note or a rest -- what a publisher will accept and what the musicians will complain about, however are different things and are issues which I agree engravers need to take into account when preparing music for printing. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
At 11:46 PM -0400 3/12/09, Christopher Smith wrote: Yes and furthermore, the original question was pertaining to placement of a dotted half rest starting on beat 2 of a pickup measure. Syncopated rests (held over to a stronger beat) are NEVER used in modern notation, whereas syncopated notes are commonplace. I stand by my original answer. Archaic examples from the literature are not germane to a modern context. While I mostly agree, I have to point out that an AWFUL lot of orchestral players are still reading those archaic examples! Including music from French publishers that have backward 8th rests for quarter rests in Saint-Saëns et al. There's a lot of music beyond current jazz conventions, and a lot of old and older music being played on a regular basis. In fact, as David F indicated, a lot of players prefer to play from facsimiles of the original notation, even though that requires learning to interpret earlier notation conventions. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! Raymond Horton Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 13.03.2009 dhbailey wrote: Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I am sure you can, but you will find that none of the big European publishers (I cannot say about American publishers) will ignore these conventions. No, there isn't a rule book, and things will change. But there is also no use in everyone having their own rules. I can tell you that dotted rests in some of the badly prepared computer editions I have used are very confusing to a lot of conventionally trained orchestral musicians. Add to that bad lighting in the opera pit and a dot is easily overlooked. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! But that just shows that the person has manipulated the software because the default behavior for both Finale and Sibelius when their auto-fill with rests option is turned on is to not use dotted rests. I'm curious and not trying to pick a fight -- why do they look amateurish? And why do they look amateurish when dotted half-notes do not? Is it mainly because of tradition? I'm really wondering about why we accept some things from notes which we don't accept from rests, such as quarter-half-quarter being perfectly acceptable when they're written as notes but not acceptable when written as rests. Why not? -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 13 Mar 2009, at 4:58 PM, dhbailey wrote: I'm curious and not trying to pick a fight -- why do they look amateurish? Because most publishers don't use dotted rests (except dotted eighth rests and smaller) in non-compound meters. And why do they look amateurish when dotted half-notes do not? Because all publishers use dotted half-notes. Is it mainly because of tradition? Yes. I'm really wondering about why we accept some things from notes which we don't accept from rests, such as quarter-half-quarter being perfectly acceptable when they're written as notes but not acceptable when written as rests. Why not? I speculated about that in my last message. Again, I think it's about the psychology of note placement. In sight-reading situations, placing the attack in the right spot is (at least) 90% of the battle. So rests that outline the beat clearly help the sight-reader to visually and psychologically plant their attack. At least, that's my best guess. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@mac.com http://homepage.mac.com/djargon Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
I'm really wondering about why we accept some things from notes which we don't accept from rests, such as quarter-half-quarter being perfectly acceptable when they're written as notes but not acceptable when written as rests. Why not? On just this question, and not the other ones debated here, I think that rests mean silence, but they also mark meter; notes mean sound and, while they can also mark meter, they are sometimes explicitly counter to meter as in your quarter-half-quarter example. Silence cannot be counter to meter; sound can. RY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On Mar 13, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: I'm really wondering about why we accept some things from notes which we don't accept from rests, such as quarter-half-quarter being perfectly acceptable when they're written as notes but not acceptable when written as rests. Why not? I speculated about that in my last message. Again, I think it's about the psychology of note placement. In sight-reading situations, placing the attack in the right spot is (at least) 90% of the battle. So rests that outline the beat clearly help the sight-reader to visually and psychologically plant their attack. I think Darcy is onto something here. I think most players DON'T play the rests, they play the note-ons, so they just see the rests as placeholders, like a numbered grid onto which notes have been laid. This is also why spacing inside the measure is so important to easy sight-reading. Maybe I am obsessed with easy sight-reading, since I write music that is highly syncopated and usually depends on being read cold for performances and recordings, rather than those who write more concert-oriented works that get practiced a lot. I depend on tradition and modern convention to make sure my parts are instantly understandable. I am reading a show right now that uses a lot of funk-like rhythms in sixteenth-note subdivisions, and there are a lot of inadvertent solos from various players because the syncopations are not written in conventional ways. The beat is hard enough to see with sixteenth subdivisions already, and though we all get it right on the second glance, the first one is what counts. The rather loose hand-copying, while adequate, is not exactly precise with regards to spacing either, so that doesn't help. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 13 Mar 2009 at 16:18, Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! This is *your* reaction, not one that is universally shared. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
At 3/13/2009 06:21 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 13 Mar 2009 at 16:18, Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! This is *your* reaction, not one that is universally shared. As a player, if there are no notes in a particular measure, I would prefer to see just one rest taking up the whole measure. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
dhbailey wrote: Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! But that just shows that the person has manipulated the software because the default behavior for both Finale and Sibelius when their auto-fill with rests option is turned on is to not use dotted rests. I'm curious and not trying to pick a fight -- why do they look amateurish? And why do they look amateurish when dotted half-notes do not? Is it mainly because of tradition? I'm really wondering about why we accept some things from notes which we don't accept from rests, such as quarter-half-quarter being perfectly acceptable when they're written as notes but not acceptable when written as rests. Why not? The same reeson that speled rite words look beter than mispeled ones. You could read that sentence just fine! So, there wasn't anything wrong with it? Darcy already explained the probable reasons for the differences between notes and rests, very well. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Yes - a whole rest. RBH Phil Daley wrote: At 3/13/2009 06:21 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 13 Mar 2009 at 16:18, Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! This is *your* reaction, not one that is universally shared. As a player, if there are no notes in a particular measure, I would prefer to see just one rest taking up the whole measure. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Uh, not in the context we are talking about? A three quarter note pickup in 4/4? I DEFINITELY only want three beats in that bar, and preferably a quarter and a half, in that order. Christopher On Mar 13, 2009, at 10:46 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Yes - a whole rest. RBH Phil Daley wrote: At 3/13/2009 06:21 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 13 Mar 2009 at 16:18, Ray Horton wrote: Dotted half rests, in non-compound meters, give the music an amateurish appearance, just as a conversational tone might tarnish an article for a scholarly journal. Y'know what I mean? Whenever I see a dotted half rest in non-compound meter, I assume a computer engraver with auto-fill rests that he/she doesn't know how to control. If that is the impression yu want to give, then, by all means, use them! This is *your* reaction, not one that is universally shared. As a player, if there are no notes in a particular measure, I would prefer to see just one rest taking up the whole measure. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
At 11:42 PM -0400 3/13/09, Christopher Smith wrote: Uh, not in the context we are talking about? A three quarter note pickup in 4/4? I DEFINITELY only want three beats in that bar, and preferably a quarter and a half, in that order. Christopher Agreed. Having a full bar rest as a pickup bar when there's only a note or three as an actual pickup is a BIG mistake, especially if a conductor routinely counts off one bar for nothing. One of the composers in our Community Band does exactly that (with pickup bars and with counting off both), and it's always a ragged beginning until we've rehearsed it enough, or until we've re-marked our parts in pencil. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On Mar 12, 2009, at 12:27 AM, John Howell wrote: I'm all for context, but I would like to gently point you to some rules regarding what's incorrect and correct practice for notating rests. Gardner Read: page 99 Essential Dictionary of Music Notation (Alfred): page 198 Ross: page 180 Stone: page 134 Powell: page 23 And Clinton Roemer manages to avoid giving any special rules about this at all. No, he doesn't. Page 40, point 19 in the edition I use, he agrees with everyone else. Let's face it, these are all opinions, And they ALL agree! Well, in this context anyway. which there are plenty of right here on this list without appealing to higher authority! If it reads well, it's fine. If it doesn't, it isn't. And you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. Sure, but you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
At 7:21 AM -0400 3/12/09, Christopher Smith wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 12:27 AM, John Howell wrote: And Clinton Roemer manages to avoid giving any special rules about this at all. No, he doesn't. Page 40, point 19 in the edition I use, he agrees with everyone else. I don't doubt you, but my edition (which I inherited when a colleague passed away) is copyright 1973, has nothing about rests on page 40 (I looked carefully from p. 30 to p. 50), and does not use numbered points at all. His only Chapter on rests is Chapter 5, and is mostly concerned with how to draw them (by hand, of course), both individual rests and multirests. I disagree with his instructions on how to draw quarter rests, since I trained my fingers to draw them from the top down rather than the bottom up, but everything else is just plain common sense. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 6:20, Lawrence David Eden wrote: As Finale users, our hope is that musicians can read and understand what we want them to play and get it right the first time. With that in mind, I avoid dotted rests. Not because they aren't allowed, but because I think they make players look twice. If I can make my notation more clear I try to do it. The point I've been trying to make is that you can't make a hard-and- fast rule about this -- there can be contexts in which the dotted rest will be clearer (or no less clear) than the alternative. It all depends on CONTEXT. Certainly in a meter like 6/4 I'd much rather have dotted half rests than muck around with half/quarter. Again, it all depends on context (and it also depends on your musicians -- early music specialists are not going to be bothered by dotted rests, for instance). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. I've always wondered whether these experts (whose opinions I pay attention to when they make sense to me) were experts who wrote books on notation or did they write books on notation and by dint of that fact alone have been accepted as experts. Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I'm with the if it's clear and easy to read it's fine school of notation, which allows dotted rests and eschews double-dotted notes. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
De gustibus, etc. The double-dotted half note on beat one is one of the most useful and commonly used ways of notating ubiquitous swing rhythms like long note on one, short note on and of four or (when tied to an eighth at the end of the previous bar) long chain of long notes on the and of four. Carving those notes up into half-tied-to-dotted-quarter is unnecessarily cluttered. On the other hand, I think dotted rests longer than dotted eighth rests in non-compound meters are not only a pain in the ass to read but almost invariably look amateurish. I think the rationale for allowing dotted notes but disallowing dotted rests that have the same duration has to do with the psychology of playing sustaining instruments. The most important thing is that the location of the attack be absolutely, unmistakably clear to the player, and rests that show the beat pattern clearly help people place accurate attacks more easily. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@mac.com Brooklyn, NY On 12 Mar 2009, at 8:16 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. I've always wondered whether these experts (whose opinions I pay attention to when they make sense to me) were experts who wrote books on notation or did they write books on notation and by dint of that fact alone have been accepted as experts. Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I'm with the if it's clear and easy to read it's fine school of notation, which allows dotted rests and eschews double-dotted notes. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Yes and furthermore, the original question was pertaining to placement of a dotted half rest starting on beat 2 of a pickup measure. Syncopated rests (held over to a stronger beat) are NEVER used in modern notation, whereas syncopated notes are commonplace. I stand by my original answer. Archaic examples from the literature are not germane to a modern context. Christopher On Mar 12, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: De gustibus, etc. The double-dotted half note on beat one is one of the most useful and commonly used ways of notating ubiquitous swing rhythms like long note on one, short note on and of four or (when tied to an eighth at the end of the previous bar) long chain of long notes on the and of four. Carving those notes up into half-tied-to-dotted- quarter is unnecessarily cluttered. On the other hand, I think dotted rests longer than dotted eighth rests in non-compound meters are not only a pain in the ass to read but almost invariably look amateurish. I think the rationale for allowing dotted notes but disallowing dotted rests that have the same duration has to do with the psychology of playing sustaining instruments. The most important thing is that the location of the attack be absolutely, unmistakably clear to the player, and rests that show the beat pattern clearly help people place accurate attacks more easily. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@mac.com Brooklyn, NY On 12 Mar 2009, at 8:16 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. I've always wondered whether these experts (whose opinions I pay attention to when they make sense to me) were experts who wrote books on notation or did they write books on notation and by dint of that fact alone have been accepted as experts. Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I'm with the if it's clear and easy to read it's fine school of notation, which allows dotted rests and eschews double-dotted notes. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 23:46, Christopher Smith wrote: Yes and furthermore, the original question was pertaining to placement of a dotted half rest starting on beat 2 of a pickup measure. Syncopated rests (held over to a stronger beat) are NEVER used in modern notation, whereas syncopated notes are commonplace. I stand by my original answer. Archaic examples from the literature are not germane to a modern context. Was anyone arguing for dotted half rest in the context of the original post? Well, perhaps I was, in that I could conceive of a situation where it could make sense (what if the instruments that were playing were all playing a dotted half?). Also, I said quarter plus half would be acceptable but half plus quarter would not, *unless* it could be justfied as conforming to the uniform rhythm played by all the non-resting instruments. Again, in general, I would think you'd want to avoid dotted half, or half/quarter in that context, but I can certainly conceive of situations in which I could justify it. Context, context, context. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 11 Mar 2009 at 14:14, Ryan Beard wrote: Dotted half rests aren't allowed in common time or 4/4 in any circumstance in my opinion. Rests should never hide the 3rd beat or the middle of a bar. (So, no half rests in 3/4.) This seems like an unnecessarily strict rule, and one that is not followed in an awful lot of printed music. I think there can be no objection whatsoever to a dotted half rest on the downbeat of a 4/4 measure, while I'd have problems with it on the 2nd beat. Certainly a half rest in 3/4 is not problematic, either, whether on the 1st or 2nd beats. I can't think of any situations in which that would be confusing. In the present case, I'd likely make the rests conform to the rhythmic content of the instruments that *are* playing. If they are playing 3 quarter notes, or 6 8th notes, or some variety of that, I'd go with 3 quarter rests. If the instruments are playing quarter half, I think I'd use that for the rest. But it all depends on context for me more than it does any set of rules about what's allowed or not in a particular meter. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 11 Mar 2009 at 16:05, Ryan Beard wrote: Dotted half rests aren't allowed in common time or 4/4 in any circumstance in my opinion. Rests should never hide the 3rd beat or the middle of a bar. (So, no half rests in 3/4.) This seems like an unnecessarily strict rule, and one that is not followed in an awful lot of printed music. And I think that an awful lot of printed music looks awful precisely because of the poor use of rests. A lot of it has to do with the fill with rests at end of measure feature in Finale. And, although I don't know for sure, I would guess that Sibelius has a similar feature. Well, most of the engraving that I'm thinking of that doesn't follow your strict restriction on rests predates computer engraving, so I really, really don't think that's the reason for it. In any event, Finale fills measures with exactly the kinds of rests you're seeking, it seems to me. In a 4/4 measure with one quarter note, Finale inserts a quarter rest and a half rest. In a 3/4 measure with one quarter not, Finale inserts two quarter note rests. Isn't that precisely what you're expecting? But it all depends on context for me more than it does any set of rules about what's allowed or not in a particular meter. I'm all for context, but I would like to gently point you to some rules regarding what's incorrect and correct practice for notating rests. [list of citations deleted] I don't subscribe to any of those. They are arbitrary sets of rules that define only a particular set of practices that have never been universally followed, and for good reason -- slavish devotion to those rules does not enhance readability. And they often contradict each other on the details. Again, readability is going to depend on context more than it depends on a set of arbitrary rules that try to define every situation that could ever happen. That's simply not possible (nor desirable), and thus I see no reason why anyone should pay much attention at all to any of those. I'd much rather look at examples of engraving that I think are attractive and readable and match *that*, instead of looking up something in a book. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Hi Ryan, The standard solution would be quarter rest, half rest. Three quarter rests is -- I don't want to say wrong, but certainly nonstandard in the situation you describe. - Darcy - djar...@mac.com Brooklyn, NY On 11 Mar 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ryan Beard wrote: What about a dotted half rest? No, thanks. Dotted half rests aren't allowed in common time or 4/4 in any circumstance in my opinion. Rests should never hide the 3rd beat or the middle of a bar. (So, no half rests in 3/4.) I think I'll stick with the 3 quarter rests I had initially since the melody is three quarter notes. Thanks for your help. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On Mar 11, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ryan Beard wrote: What about a dotted half rest? No, thanks. Dotted half rests aren't allowed in common time or 4/4 in any circumstance in my opinion. Rests should never hide the 3rd beat or the middle of a bar. (So, no half rests in 3/4.) I think I'll stick with the 3 quarter rests I had initially since the melody is three quarter notes. Thanks for your help. Ha! You think it's over? I think quarter-half is most correct in the circumstance, and it is what I would use. Next! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
I'd much rather look at examples of engraving that I think are attractive and readable and match *that*, instead of looking up something in a book. ... the book being based in most cases on some form of (mis)interpretation of said examples... ryan, dude... neither finale nor read are gospel, although one of them is a good starting point for the understanding of notation practices and standards. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
