Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
On Dec 1, 2007 3:43 PM, Giuliano Forghieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can think of several situations where that would not be neither quick nor painless, What I mean is that the actual process of creating the tuplets is quick and painless. If you are thinking of situations where the actual process of creating the tuplets is not quick or painless, I'd like to know what they are. If you choose a source measure that has only the invisible tuplet for that meter, Mass Copy will copy it repeatedly to every measure. Since any measure that has music has an entry at the beginning of the measure, the copy is quick and painless, qed. It does not matter whether there are visible tuplets in the target bars. Obviously with any workaround there are extra steps. Unfortunately, MM (and Coda before it) have never gotten Independent Time Sigs right. What I like about using the invisible tuplets workaround is that everything just works once you've set it up. The problem entering smart shapes is just the tip of the iceberg of problems you encounter with independent time sigs, unless all the underlying sigs are actually the same. I have not experimented enough lately to know which problems may have been fixed, nor can I frankly remember them all now. It has become one of those here there be dragons features for me. As long as I am touting Mass Copy, I should mention that long-time Finale users sometimes have trouble wrapping their minds around the fact that Mass Copy (unlike Finale's built-in copy) is completely free of barlines. (I also am a Finale 1.0 purchaser and user, btw.) That sounds like just words until you actually try it with a source pattern that includes, e.g., hairpin dynamics. Then the lightbulb goes on. I am frankly puzzled why anyone would stick with Fin06 if they have Fin07. I disagree that problems were not fixed. On the contrary, many problems were fixed. And linked parts is incredibly useful even if you have your parts in a separate file from the score. I couldn't imagine going back. Finally, of course, is the fact that Fin07 runs native on an Intel Mac. About the only time I use Fin06 is to open certain old files where Fin07 changes the placement of some articulations due to a change in the way Fin07 reads Font Annotation files. Now, Fin08 is a completely worthless upgrade: arguably the most worthless upgrade ever released. You have to learn an entirely new Copy/Paste workflow, and you don't get a single new useful feature or bugfix as a reward. Fin08 sits registered but unused on my hard drive, unless I have to debug a file sent by some poor sucker who adopted it. (I suppose some might say ScoreMerger is a useful new feature of Fin08. Personally, knowing what it has to do, I don't trust it for any but trivial jobs.) -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
On Sun, December 2, 2007 10:56 am, Robert Patterson wrote: What I mean is that the actual process of creating the tuplets is quick and painless. If you are thinking of situations where the actual process of creating the tuplets is not quick or painless, I'd like to know what they are. If you choose a source measure that has only the invisible tuplet for that meter, Mass Copy will copy it repeatedly to every measure. Since any measure that has music has an entry at the beginning of the measure, the copy is quick and painless, qed. It does not matter whether there are visible tuplets in the target bars. I'm not understanding something. This thread started because I'm composing into Finale, not using a finished source score. So if I'm composing into Finale and expect the time signature to be one different from the underlying signature, are you suggesting that I can *pre-apply* this invisible tuplet in some way to a measure that I'm about to work on? Or that, if not, I can enter any note at all just to give the measure some music (I work in Speedy), hit a key combo, and just continue as if the invisible tuplet had created the separate time signature for me? And that if I clear and fix and drag-drop/transpose measures or partial measures or use note mover, etc., it will always 'believe' that this tuplet exists? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Giuliano Forghieri wrote: Also, I'm used to do precision work for high quality publishing, and linked parts are, as far as I'm concerned, useless. I doubt if anyone is more exacting than I am about engraving quality, and I find linked parts, on the contrary, to be incredibly useful. The mistake you may be making is to dismiss them because you can't have your parts in the same docfile as the score. If you have high standards, you will almost certainly have to clone the score and work on the parts in a separate docfile. But this is vastly superior to having one file per part, if for no other reason that you can print all or any arbitrary subset of the parts at once. (But there are many other reasons.) A personal pet peeve that was fixed in Fin07 is the ability to copy articulations based on shapes from one file to another. Fin06 and earlier had a most annoying bug in this regard. A further comment about the problems with Ind. Key sigs. The basic issue is that when you have ind. key sigs, the EDUs in one staff don't align with the EDUs in another. Effectively there are global and staff-level EDUs that can be different. Finale's problem is that over the years as features are added, sometimes they remember to account for this difference and sometimes they don't. Thus, when there are differences, the discrepancies come crawling out of the woodwork. As recently as Fin04, you could get a complete mess in an extracted part with ind. key sigs. Upgrading a pre-v3 file messed up all the clef changes. There is still this smart shape editing problem, and possibly the same problem with meas-attached exps (that use EDUs). I have no doubt there remain others as well. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
At 16.56 02/12/2007, Robert Patterson wrote: If you choose a source measure that has only the invisible tuplet for that meter, Mass Copy will copy it repeatedly to every measure. Since any measure that has music has an entry at the beginning of the measure, the copy is quick and painless, qed. It does not matter whether there are visible tuplets in the target bars. Okay, I'll give this a try. The problem entering smart shapes is just the tip of the iceberg of problems you encounter with independent time sigs... Sure, I have encountered many other problems, copying the music and getting spacing correctly without workarounds and TIME is just impossible. But, we were talking about smart shapes... As long as I am touting Mass Copy, I should mention that long-time Finale users sometimes have trouble wrapping their minds around the fact that Mass Copy (unlike Finale's built-in copy) is completely free of barlines. Yes, I known that, and it's great! I am frankly puzzled why anyone would stick with Fin06 if they have Fin07. I disagree that problems were not fixed. On the contrary, many problems were fixed. And linked parts is incredibly useful even if you have your parts in a separate file from the score. I couldn't imagine going back. Finally, of course, is the fact that Fin07 runs native on an Intel Mac. First, I am on Windows ;-), second, none of the problems that annoys me much have been fixed. Also, I'm used to do precision work for high quality publishing, and linked parts are, as far as I'm concerned, useless. Thus, I stick with 2006, with which I obtain all the results I need. I'm not saying this applies to all Finale users, I just say this applies to me and my long time habits... Fin08 sits registered but unused on my hard drive, unless I have to debug a file sent by some poor sucker who adopted it. That's why I'll buy it sooner or later: I get files from others from time to time to clean up, and since Finale files aren't backward compatible, I always need to have the latest version available. Robert, thanks again for your plug-ins and for your very helpful advices. Giuliano Forghieri ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
First of all, we are talking about a workaround. No workaround is as convenient as not having to work around. Second, we are talking about different time signatures where the barlines align, so effectively it is a shorthand for tuplets anyway, right? Third, my contention is that for a host of reasons you are better off with an underlying meter that is the same in every staff. Finale has more defects than just editing smart shapes if you have different underlying meters. So the extra effort of a workaround is possibly worth the trouble. If you grant those, I can show you a way to drastically reduce the pain of the workaround. Suppose you have 4/4, 6/4, and 7/8 as your aligning meters. Since 6/4 is the longest meter, choose that as the underlying true meter. Then enter all your notes in that meter for all parts. They will not align properly, but it won't matter. After you have finished entering the notes (or the notes for the passage), you can use Mass Copy (in one pass per staff or independent meter) to copy an invisible tuplet to the beginning of every bar to make them align properly. If you need to hear the proper playback before you finalize the notes/rhythms, etc., you can always create true ind. key sigs then change them to the other way when you are ready to create the final edits. Under no circumstances is it necessary to enter the tuplet on each bar in Speedy. Also, once it is done, you can edit at well, so long as you don't replace the first entry of the bar with an entry that lacks the tuplet. One possible source of confusion may be that, unlike Finale's Mass Edit tool (last I checked), Mass Copy can copy tuplet assignments without copying the entries they are assigned to. You may have a work process that is antithetical my appraoch. For me, I have found that using true independent key sigs is the road to perdition, so I have learned to avoid it by giving only the appearance of independent key sigs. But perhaps in later versions of Finale ind. key sigs is less problematic. YMMV. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Robert Patterson wrote: A further comment about the problems with Ind. Key sigs. ...or independent time sigs. ;-) Anyway, I now finally understand what Dennis BK is trying to achieve (first I thought it was a piece with non-aligned barlines) and I absolutely agree with you, Robert. Since the time sig actually is sort of tuplet anyway, I would even go as far as to not call your approach a work-around. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Try clicking just once more into the same measure in case the first click won't bring you the smart shapes. Raimund Lintzen Giuliano Forghieri schrieb: Something related: am I the only one that can't get smart shapes copied along with the rest of the music? If I copy by clicking and dragging they get copied, but if use ctrl-c or ctrl-shift-c then ctrl-v everything gets copied but smart shapes. Of course the settings in the Items To Copy dialog are correct. Am I missing something? Fin 2006 on Windows Giuliano ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Thanks Raymund, but that works only with dragging, not with the usual copy and paste commands. I have tried opening two windows of the same document, but in this case neither dragging nor copy and paste work for smart shapes. Again, am I missing something? Luckily, this morning I have discovered that Robert Patterson's Mass Copy plug-in does copy smart shapes the way I want, but it doesn't copy the notes, thus I have to do things twice. Robert: what about a new addition to your Mass Copy plug-in, something like a check box for copy notes as well? I wish a great weekend to everyone! Giuliano At 11.10 01/12/2007, Raimund Lintzen wrote: Try clicking just once more into the same measure in case the first click won't bring you the smart shapes. Raimund Lintzen Giuliano Forghieri schrieb: Something related: am I the only one that can't get smart shapes copied along with the rest of the music? If I copy by clicking and dragging they get copied, but if use ctrl-c or ctrl-shift-c then ctrl-v everything gets copied but smart shapes. Of course the settings in the Items To Copy dialog are correct. Am I missing something? Fin 2006 on Windows Giuliano ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Something related: am I the only one that can't get smart shapes copied along with the rest of the music? If I copy by clicking and dragging they get copied, but if use ctrl-c or ctrl-shift-c then ctrl-v everything gets copied but smart shapes. Of course the settings in the Items To Copy dialog are correct. Am I missing something? Fin 2006 on Windows Giuliano At 20.50 30/11/2007, Brian Williams wrote: A quick fix: copy the measure you want to add smart shapes to a blank measure at the *end* of the document and add the smart shapes there, then copy it back. Apparently the bug you describe only happens when you try to edit smart shapes in measures that come before other measures but doesn't happen in measures that are at the end of a file. Hope this helps, Brian ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Giuliano Forghieri wrote: Robert: what about a new addition to your Mass Copy plug-in, something like a check box for copy notes as well? It is quite regrettable that MM has ruined the copying of smart shapes. (It used to work brainlessly.) Unfortunately, copying entries is far beyond the scope of Mass Copy. I haven't messed much with Fin08. Is it better, worse, or the same with respect to copying smart shapes? Speaking of which, another post on this thread said my tuplet method is too cumbersome because of the need to enter it at the beginning of every bar. I absolutely agree that method is too painful. What I do instead is wait until I've entered the notes, then copy the tuplets using Mass Copy. This works quickly and painlessly. If the underlying actual meter is the longest meter in the stack, you don't have to worry about speedy jumping or complaining as you enter the notes. I also make liberal use of my Beam Selection plugin, which allows you to beam notes based on selecting them, including in stacks. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
At 14.53 01/12/2007, Robert Patterson wrote: Unfortunately, copying entries is far beyond the scope of Mass Copy. That's a pity, but thank you anyway, your plug-ins are invaluable. I haven't messed much with Fin08. Is it better, worse, or the same with respect to copying smart shapes? I'm still on 2006, and I don't have plans to upgrade now, but if the answer is better I'll probably do it (actually, I have bought the 2007 upgrade, but it's been uninstalled soon after discovering that none of the major problems got fixed) What I do instead is wait until I've entered the notes, then copy the tuplets using Mass Copy. This works quickly and painlessly. I can think of several situations where that would not be neither quick nor painless, but indeed it would be in some cases (I have a long experience with Finale - the first version I had was 1.1.1 - and although I don't post on this list very much, I'm here almost from the beginning...). If the underlying actual meter is the longest meter in the stack, you don't have to worry about speedy jumping or complaining as you enter the notes. Again, that's true, but sometimes the situation is different and you have to deal with those annoyances. I also make liberal use of my Beam Selection plugin, which allows you to beam notes based on selecting them, including in stacks. And this is a further step to do... My point is that indeed you can obtain good results using workarounds and plug-ins, but when speed is essential you may find yourself in trouble. Thanks and all the best Giuliano Forghieri ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Guiliano, My original reply to your message didn't seem to get to the list, but you aren't out of options in 2006. Drag and drop behaved differently from copy and paste in version before 2007. The reasons had something to do with the kind of data you could get the operating system's clipboard to hold. Some things wouldn't work with copy and paste, but since drag and drop stayed in house inside Finale, that worked for all items. They messed with it a bit after changing the general behaviour, but it works properly now, in late 2007 and 2008. But in 2006 and previous, if you select the source measures and then alt-click the first target measure, this behaves the same as drag and drop. (I hope I got the PC key right; I am on a Mac). This is useful when the target area is off screen; you select your source, scroll to the target and alt-click to copy everything. You can still do what you need to do this way. Christopher On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Giuliano Forghieri wrote: At 14.53 01/12/2007, Robert Patterson wrote: Unfortunately, copying entries is far beyond the scope of Mass Copy. That's a pity, but thank you anyway, your plug-ins are invaluable. I haven't messed much with Fin08. Is it better, worse, or the same with respect to copying smart shapes? I'm still on 2006, and I don't have plans to upgrade now, but if the answer is better I'll probably do it (actually, I have bought the 2007 upgrade, but it's been uninstalled soon after discovering that none of the major problems got fixed) What I do instead is wait until I've entered the notes, then copy the tuplets using Mass Copy. This works quickly and painlessly. I can think of several situations where that would not be neither quick nor painless, but indeed it would be in some cases (I have a long experience with Finale - the first version I had was 1.1.1 - and although I don't post on this list very much, I'm here almost from the beginning...). If the underlying actual meter is the longest meter in the stack, you don't have to worry about speedy jumping or complaining as you enter the notes. Again, that's true, but sometimes the situation is different and you have to deal with those annoyances. I also make liberal use of my Beam Selection plugin, which allows you to beam notes based on selecting them, including in stacks. And this is a further step to do... My point is that indeed you can obtain good results using workarounds and plug-ins, but when speed is essential you may find yourself in trouble. Thanks and all the best Giuliano Forghieri ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
On Fri, November 30, 2007 8:46 am, Robert Patterson wrote: The best workaround I know of is to use the Independent feature purely for Time Signature for Display and to use invisibie tuplets to get correct alignment and playback. This is an issue because I compose directly into Finale, especially this year with deadlines on average every three days, and 19 more pieces to write before January 1. So these kinds of graphical workarounds just aren't acceptable for that -- it's gotta actually be what's happening in the composition process. David Bailey, if you're reading, do those other hairpins play back (human playback) without using a special definition box? As far as that copy/paste bug goes, I'd forgotten the uncheck/check independent time signature could make it happen. It's a real bear to insert measures that way (copy/paste a real help when doing sequential material). Many thanks to all, Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Thanks Robert, what you say is very interesting, and will probably help me sometimes in the future, especially spacing-wise. But, as far as I'm concerned, entering a lot of music as invisible tuplets is very annoying and slowing down, since I have to hit ctrl-(number) every time I enter a tuplet (making them all invisible at once is no problem, a macro can be created for instance, or we just can set them invisible by default). I'd say Hans gave the best solution if hairpins positioning is the only problem, you explained a very good way to get good spacing and playback. I believe I'll use both workarounds, depending on context, so thanks again to both! Giuliano At 14.46 30/11/2007, Robert Patterson wrote: This is a long-standing defect in Finale. (One of those they should have fixed years ago.) The best workaround I know of is to use the Independent feature purely for Time Signature for Display and to use invisibie tuplets to get correct alignment and playback. If you have already done a lot of work on it, you can use my Mass Copy plugin to apply the tuplets quickly. Unfortunately, you will probably lose any hand-crafted note spacing you have done. On Nov 30, 2007 12:38 AM, Giuliano Forghieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know of a solution, thus I'd be very interested in knowing what others do in this situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Just checked---that works with smart shape hairpins, too. Thanks again, Hans, it's a very important workaround for me. Giuliano At 10.02 30/11/2007, Hans Swinnen wrote: Giuliano, I'm not sure about smart shapes, but copy-paste should work this way: - uncheck independent time sig in the source staff and don't worry about to few or to many beats in the measure(s); - copy; - check independent time again (for not to forget); - uncheck independent time sig in the target staff; - paste (again: don't worry as above) - check ind time again. Hans ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Giuliano, I'm not sure about smart shapes, but copy-paste should work this way: - uncheck independent time sig in the source staff and don't worry about to few or to many beats in the measure(s); - copy; - check independent time again (for not to forget); - uncheck independent time sig in the target staff; - paste (again: don't worry as above) - check ind time again. Hans === Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti So far tranquillo ogni turbato core, Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti. Op 30-nov-07, om 07:38 heeft Giuliano Forghieri het volgende geschreven: Hello---I have and have had the same problem every time I use the Indipendent Time feature (still working with 2006, by the way). Also, Indipendent Time always create problems with spacing and copy- paste, in my experience. I don't know of a solution, thus I'd be very interested in knowing what others do in this situation. All the best Giuliano At 04.46 30/11/2007, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Hi all, Can anybody replicate this problem and have a solution? I have a piece with simultaneous time signatures of 7/8, 7/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 4/4. I can't line up the smart shapes -- they won't allow placement in certain horizontal locations. For example, the bottom four parts have a decrescendo. The hairpin pulls all the way across the 7/8 and the 4/4, but will only go to the 4th note in the 5/8 and the 5th eighth note in the 3/4. If I pull it further, it jumps to the next measure. Using the nudge tool makes it go *backwards*. If I make them all a little shorter, then the proper ones jump backwards. None of them will stay reliably in place. It's not just hairpins. I need ossia tuplet brackets above (made with smart shapes), and they won't stretch properly either. I tried putting it in another measure and moving it over, but the shape just pops into a different shape as soon as it gets under the measure. Any clues what to do? Can I unsmart these shapes somehow? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Hi all, Can anybody replicate this problem and have a solution? I have a piece with simultaneous time signatures of 7/8, 7/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 4/4. I can't line up the smart shapes -- they won't allow placement in certain horizontal locations. For example, the bottom four parts have a decrescendo. The hairpin pulls all the way across the 7/8 and the 4/4, but will only go to the 4th note in the 5/8 and the 5th eighth note in the 3/4. If I pull it further, it jumps to the next measure. Using the nudge tool makes it go *backwards*. If I make them all a little shorter, then the proper ones jump backwards. None of them will stay reliably in place. It's not just hairpins. I need ossia tuplet brackets above (made with smart shapes), and they won't stretch properly either. I tried putting it in another measure and moving it over, but the shape just pops into a different shape as soon as it gets under the measure. Any clues what to do? Can I unsmart these shapes somehow? Dennis Have you tried the Shape Expressions hairpins? If you assign them with metatools, each one is independently editable because Finale creates a new version of the hairpin each time you place a new one. These are most definitely NOT smartshapes. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Robert Patterson wrote: The best workaround I know of is to use the Independent feature purely for Time Signature for Display and to use invisibie tuplets to get correct alignment and playback. I don't get this, what's wrong with just write the music as it flows and use your beam over barline plug-in when it approaches Finale's own barlines? Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Thanks Hans---cumbersome, but it works, I wonder whether something like that may be the solution to the smart shapes problem (uncheck indipendent time, adjust shape, then check IT again), I'm going to try it out. Oh, by the way: indipendent time can be applied as a staff style, I have found that that can help sometimes. Giuliano At 10.02 30/11/2007, Hans Swinnen wrote: Giuliano, I'm not sure about smart shapes, but copy-paste should work this way: - uncheck independent time sig in the source staff and don't worry about to few or to many beats in the measure(s); - copy; - check independent time again (for not to forget); - uncheck independent time sig in the target staff; - paste (again: don't worry as above) - check ind time again. Hans === Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti So far tranquillo ogni turbato core, Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti. Op 30-nov-07, om 07:38 heeft Giuliano Forghieri het volgende geschreven: Hello---I have and have had the same problem every time I use the Indipendent Time feature (still working with 2006, by the way). Also, Indipendent Time always create problems with spacing and copy- paste, in my experience. I don't know of a solution, thus I'd be very interested in knowing what others do in this situation. All the best Giuliano At 04.46 30/11/2007, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Hi all, Can anybody replicate this problem and have a solution? I have a piece with simultaneous time signatures of 7/8, 7/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 4/4. I can't line up the smart shapes -- they won't allow placement in certain horizontal locations. For example, the bottom four parts have a decrescendo. The hairpin pulls all the way across the 7/8 and the 4/4, but will only go to the 4th note in the 5/8 and the 5th eighth note in the 3/4. If I pull it further, it jumps to the next measure. Using the nudge tool makes it go *backwards*. If I make them all a little shorter, then the proper ones jump backwards. None of them will stay reliably in place. It's not just hairpins. I need ossia tuplet brackets above (made with smart shapes), and they won't stretch properly either. I tried putting it in another measure and moving it over, but the shape just pops into a different shape as soon as it gets under the measure. Any clues what to do? Can I unsmart these shapes somehow? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: I have a piece with simultaneous time signatures of 7/8, 7/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 4/4. I can't line up the smart shapes -- they won't allow placement in certain horizontal locations. It sounds like you use real time signatures (instead of time sig for display) for the independent time sig staves? Best regards, Jari Willamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
A quick fix: copy the measure you want to add smart shapes to a blank measure at the *end* of the document and add the smart shapes there, then copy it back. Apparently the bug you describe only happens when you try to edit smart shapes in measures that come before other measures but doesn't happen in measures that are at the end of a file. Hope this helps, Brian From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:00:23 -0600 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 52, Issue 33 Hi all, Can anybody replicate this problem and have a solution? I have a piece with simultaneous time signatures of 7/8, 7/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 4/4. I can't line up the smart shapes -- they won't allow placement in certain horizontal locations. For example, the bottom four parts have a decrescendo. The hairpin pulls all the way across the 7/8 and the 4/4, but will only go to the 4th note in the 5/8 and the 5th eighth note in the 3/4. If I pull it further, it jumps to the next measure. Using the nudge tool makes it go *backwards*. If I make them all a little shorter, then the proper ones jump backwards. None of them will stay reliably in place. It's not just hairpins. I need ossia tuplet brackets above (made with smart shapes), and they won't stretch properly either. I tried putting it in another measure and moving it over, but the shape just pops into a different shape as soon as it gets under the measure. Any clues what to do? Can I unsmart these shapes somehow? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: On Fri, November 30, 2007 8:46 am, Robert Patterson wrote: The best workaround I know of is to use the Independent feature purely for Time Signature for Display and to use invisibie tuplets to get correct alignment and playback. This is an issue because I compose directly into Finale, especially this year with deadlines on average every three days, and 19 more pieces to write before January 1. So these kinds of graphical workarounds just aren't acceptable for that -- it's gotta actually be what's happening in the composition process. David Bailey, if you're reading, do those other hairpins play back (human playback) without using a special definition box? I haven't used those hairpins since they included smartshapes, so I don't know. I'd suggest putting a small test score together and seeing how my suggestion works -- I remember that in the early days before SmartShapes, this was the only way to get different length hairpins and that was long before human playback. I think the built-in hairpins had playback defined so they did playback appropriately (but I may not be remembering accurately since I haven't used them since smartshapes were invented), so the copies which metatool assignment created played the same. Heck, for all I know, they may have removed this capability all together, but if it's there it may be just what you need. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Smart shape and different time sigs
Hello---I have and have had the same problem every time I use the Indipendent Time feature (still working with 2006, by the way). Also, Indipendent Time always create problems with spacing and copy-paste, in my experience. I don't know of a solution, thus I'd be very interested in knowing what others do in this situation. All the best Giuliano At 04.46 30/11/2007, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Hi all, Can anybody replicate this problem and have a solution? I have a piece with simultaneous time signatures of 7/8, 7/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 4/4. I can't line up the smart shapes -- they won't allow placement in certain horizontal locations. For example, the bottom four parts have a decrescendo. The hairpin pulls all the way across the 7/8 and the 4/4, but will only go to the 4th note in the 5/8 and the 5th eighth note in the 3/4. If I pull it further, it jumps to the next measure. Using the nudge tool makes it go *backwards*. If I make them all a little shorter, then the proper ones jump backwards. None of them will stay reliably in place. It's not just hairpins. I need ossia tuplet brackets above (made with smart shapes), and they won't stretch properly either. I tried putting it in another measure and moving it over, but the shape just pops into a different shape as soon as it gets under the measure. Any clues what to do? Can I unsmart these shapes somehow? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
