adios for now
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have known I needed to do this and been putting it off. But now I must go ahead. I need to say goodbye to the Fjord List, at least for a while. I have always tried to keep my priorities in place: the Lord first, Barb and Daniel next, and then work etc. Lately though I have realized that I have allowed things to get a little out of whack. I have become so busy that I have not been spending enough time on the things and with the people who are really important to me. The List is addictive to me, and I can't stop at just one message : ). If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it right, and that means (for me) that I read each and every message. I'm not content doing it any other way. If it were just reading messages, that would not be so bad. But I respond to some, and I think and rethink and rethink each message to make it as clear and concise as possible. And that takes a long time. And then I receive messages off list, etc, and those take time as well. I'm not writing this to make anyone who's asked me a question feel bad; I hope you can tell I enjoy answering them and try to put a lot into it. And if there were just the Fjord List, that still would be no problem. But there's work and the horses etc etc etc. Which is all why I must drop off the List for a while. I'm going to miss it badly. I feel something like a father or coach to many of you in that I've tried to educate and encourage you about horses and Fjords. And in return I've enjoyed learning about everyone and their Fjords, and learning many things I did not know as well. The List is important enough to me, and it's a big enough highlight of my day, that I feel like I'm cutting off my own arm right now. I'd like to encourage you all to keep learning about horses. The more you know, the better job you can do. Go to seminars put on by feed companies, trainers, and your veterinarian. Subscribe to good, down-to-earth publications like The Horse and/or Equus. Read books that people generally agree are good (search the Fjord List archives for books that have been mentioned more than once, or see a list at Lori Albrough's website). Knowledge is power. And knowledge gives you freedom - freedom from making mistakes based on ignorance. Also, practice thinking critically. Evaluate everything you hear about horses (and their owners) carefully. Don't accept anything just because it sounds possible or reasonable. There are many things that sound possible or reasonable that are 100% wrong! Compare everything you read or hear to what you KNOW to be right, and if you don't have enough knowledge on the subject to properly compare, seek the wisdom of someone who does. Usually that's going to be someone who's gone to school to learn what's right and what's not. Does that mean what you learn in school is never wrong? No, but more is probably right than is wrong. Does that mean that someone that didn't go on to college doesn't know anything? No, but further schooling helps. Please be hesitant to believe something bad you hear about another Fjord owner, and eager to believe something good. And if you do hear something bad, keep it to yourself. When you hear something good, tell everyone! It's amazing how if you only have good things to say about people, people have a hard time saying bad things about you. Always seek the best for your Fjords. As long as you own them, they depend on you for their care. At the same time, don't get caught in the trap of comparing yourself to other people. You may not have as fancy a place as someone else has, as new a truck, an imported horse,etc, but does God care about any of that? No. He created horses for us to enjoy and take care of - just do the best job that YOU can do. Thanks to Steve M. for birthing and nursing this wonderful List. How neat it's been to be able to get to know Fjord owners from all over the country without having to leave my house. What a contribution this List has been to furthering Fjord knowledge and broadening all our horizons! Thanks to all of you who contribute your time and knowledge to this List. Thanks also to those who are the encouragers - always ready with a "way to go" or "attaboy!" We all have different personalities, and while the latter type of messages aren't important to some, they are very important to others. The List will still have an excellent veterinarian in the person of Steve White. I'm not sure how much he wants me to volunteer him for, but I think he's willing to respond to questions and concerns as much as his time allows him. Steve has a good article appearing in the next Herald which will alert people to what to think about when buying a horse. Anyway, to finish my thoughts here, I'm not leaving the Fjord world or anything like that. Barb and I will still be here raising a few Fjords. I'll still be contributing to the Her
Re: etiquette question
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Lori, Meredith, and Steve for your answers. Brian
Re: His name is Winslow (cresty neck)
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jean, People have often heard the story about the "crest" the wrong way which leads to confusion. It's not whether it's soft or hard that matters, it's just whether or not it's there. For those new to "crests", here's some background. If you look at the top of the neck, when the horse has it's head up in a comfortable position, from the withers to the top of the head (in a Fjord that's not overweight), it's usually almost a straight line. It may have a little bit of an arch to it, but it's usually not much. I'm not talking about the mane, but the neck itself. We talk about Fjords having more of a cresty neck than many other breeds and they do, but the mane trimmed in a nice arch fools the eye and makes it seem more cresty than it really is. In comparison, many other breeds of horses have varying degrees of a "dip" in front of the withers, and then the neck starts to rise again. Some Fjords have this too, but most have close to a straight line. Stallions now, especially as they get older, are a bit of an exception as they tend to have more of an arch. This area of the neck is one area where fat builds up when the horse has excess in its body. The more overweight a horse gets, the "crestier" this area gets, meaning that when viewed from the side, this area gets more and more arched. When viewed down from the top (like when you're riding), it gets wider and wider. If the fat accumulation continues, the tissue gets heavier than can be supported, and it starts leaning over to one side or the other. Now in regards to founder, having a crest does not cause a horse to founder. It's just that an extremely overweight horse is more likely to founder, and an extremely overweight horse will usually have a cresty neck. So they go together, but one does not cause the other. Also, it's not the consistency of the crest (whether it's spongy or hard); It's just whether or not it's there. So a neck that's becoming increasingly "cresty" is a warning signal that your Fjord needs to spend some time in the weight watchers corral. Again, there are exceptions. Stallions usually have a little more, especially as they get into their teens and older. A Fjord whose withers are low will usually have more of an arched neck look than a Fjord with high withers. And a horse that was quite overweight at some time in its life, and developed a big crest, will unfortunately get to keep at least some of that crest forever - even if that horse is in good shape now. How do you tell whether your horse is too heavy versus whether he/she just naturally has more of a crest? Feel for the ribs. If you can feel them fairly easily, your horse is probably fine. If you can't feel them easily, or can't feel them at all, it's weight watchers time! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
etiquette question
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Steve M. or Meredith S. or other experienced listers, Often a post by someone will bring up other ideas. For instance, the thread of "his name is Walter" is now more onto health and feeding topics, etc. When we want to write in with more thoughts on the new topic(s), is it better to keep the same "subject" line as a heading, even though the contents of the message are now totally different? Or is it better to rename the subject with a title that's more appropriate to the actual topic? Not a big deal I guess, but it would be nice to keep the archives as helpful as possible. Does it matter either way? Thanks, Brian Jacobsen
tailbone injury
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michelle, I tried not to laugh but I couldn't help it! I promise I wouldn't have laughed except my hind end has also been on the receiving end in similar situations! : ) Commiseratingly, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina >And may I suggest to you all, not to go into a pasture with a newborn calf, >until mom is RESTRAINED,. I couldnt run fast enough and she hit me at full >speed right in the tail bone, OUCH , >If the typing is funny, Its the good pain meds
Re: another greeting from ND
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Janne, I too am sorry to hear about your loss with Heidi. You made me wonder about something when you describe how "droopy" she is. While I realize that horses can be "sad", sometimes there is a physical reason as well. Sometimes a mare will bleed slowly from a uterine artery, and be very "droopy" after giving birth. Often they're just not that interested in eating, and just want to lay around most of the time. They may even show some mild discomfort or pain, which sometimes leads owners to think they are colicky. There is no blood to be seen externally; It is all internal. But it is a very serious situation as they are essentially bleeding to death inside themselves. A veterinarian can usually diagnose the bleeding by palpating rectally and feeling a huge "mass" internally which is the blood collecting in the ligaments which suspend the uterus in the abdomen. There is a certain medication we can inject which will usually stop the bleeding. Don't mean to scare you with this, because it's not that common. But I'd rather scare you a little if it meant saving your mare. If she's just a little droopy, but still eating and drinking, you are probably OK. But if she is REALLY droopy, you might have her checked out. Among other possible reasons would be a fever from a uterine infection. Another simple reason would be a full, distended udder which cold water hosing and Bute would help. Again, sorry to hear about your foal. Sincerely, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina Heidi is doing well, but oh boy, I have never seen such a sad horse. I let her out for a few hours today and she is just droopy, - I just feel so bad for her. This may start a new discussion, but how depressed can a horse get??
Re:Re: Dutch Kuering/American Fjord
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Debbi, You raised a number of questions in regards to Fjords, and I'd like to try to answer them. >Is everyone in agreement exactly what a Norwegian Fjord is? Actually, no, and that's why we have the type of discussions we are having on the List right now. Fjords are used for many different things, so it's not unexpected that there is some variation in body types. >I want horses that can do dressage. Is there anything wrong >with that. I don't care if she can't pull a dozen logs, thats not what I do. No, there's not a thing wrong with that. The thing that causes the disagreement is the fear that one body type or ability is going to be favored over the others by the people who are in a position to influence the direction of the breed (i.e. mainly judges and evaluators). >And if I want to and can, which by what I've heard on this list may be very >difficult, breed her to another Fjord which will compliment what I see in her >and hopefully "fix" what isn't ideal, I don't see what the problem is. Again, there's no problem whatsoever. In fact, it's difficult to understand where you got that impression that it was so hard to find a good stallion. Even though you are in areas that don't have a lot of Fjords, there are a number of good Fjord stallions whose owners ship semen to mare owners. If you get the Fjord Herald, the latest list is on pp. 52-54. If you don't receive the Herald, e-mail me privately and I'll be glad to tell you which ones do. (This is not self-promotion; I am not one of them). >How can this breed hope to be affordable if there are so few breeding stallions? Well there are 89 stallions listed in the Herald, and there are two other registries in the States with different stallions listed, and there are more in the Canadian registry. With somewhere around 6,000 Fjords in North America, half female, some of those too young to breed, and some aren't bred anyhow so they can be shown and used, etc, the ratio is over 100 stallions to less than 3,000 mares. That's at the most one stallion per 30 mares which is no problem for a stallion and, I suspect, not that much different than other breeds. True, the stallions aren't spaced out evenly geographically, but that's where shipped semen comes in. As to keeping Fjords affordable, we must keep something in mind. If you could purchase a Fjord for the same price you could buy the average horse, very rapidly the Fjord would not be special anymore. Number one, there would be so many around after a little while that they wouldn't be the least bit unusual. And number two, it's most often a special kind of person that's attracted to this breed. And that person is usually at least somewhat willing to try to preserve the special heritage of Norwegian Fjords. If Fjords were owned by everybody and their neighbor, most of whom don't give a hoot about Norway or a special heritage, very rapidly our Fjords would become just a common, run of the mill horse. Think about a diamond; If diamonds were priced so that everyone could go out and buy one any time they wanted, they would no longer be special. Yet if someone wants one bad enough, they can get one. Now transfer this thinking to Fjords. You can substitute "Fjords" for "diamonds" in the above sentence. Fjords have a gentle nature; They have a special love for people that no other breed, in general, has; They are a healthy, hardy horse; They are smart and are quick learners; Most of them can still do a little bit of everything well. Plain and simple, they are diamonds. Those who want everyone to be able to afford a Fjord should be commended for their sense of fairness and generosity, but realize we are talking about incompatible things. Widely affordable and special are opposites. One cannot equal the other. If you try to make them widely affordable and widely available, you make them common. As you noted yourself, Debi, you are not rich. And yet you managed to get a Fjord. Those who want them enough will find a way. >Who are these evaluations for? The breeding farms? The potential buyers? They are for everyone. There is something in an evaluation that anyone that owns a Fjord can do, whether it's presenting them for conformation, or riding (English or Western), or driving, or draft. And there are introductory and advanced levels in the riding, driving, and draft. Breeders benefit by learning whether or not the animals they are producing are true to type. Breeders also gain recognition if they are producing horses of good quality and ability. Potential buyers benefit because if they buy from a breeder that has participated, that breeder has a goal of producing the best horses he/she can. Also, if a potential buyer is looking at a horse that has been evaluated, he or she has access to very detailed information about the horse' training, ability, and strong and weak points. And everybody, yes everybody, can le
Re:Re: Committment not to breed stalliions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks everyone for the comments to my earlier post regarding the stallions and judging. Some of the comments (sent to me personally and received on the List) made me realize I needed to clarify what I wrote initially. I'll apologize right off because it seems to have caused some confusion. I should have called what we have planned for here at our farm a "conformation clinic", not an "evaluation". I am just going to have our horses judged for conformation. To begin with, I haven't done much riding or driving. Both of the stallions have been trained to drive, but the older (Leif) hasn't been driven in a long time, and the younger (Arve) has just had beginning training and that was a year ago. I imagine they could both have enough miles put on them between now and September to be able to perform sufficiently well in the driving tests, but I don't have the time or expertise to do that work, or the extra funds right now to pay someone to do it. Basically, the same goes for riding. Also, I doubt there will be enough of either of our stallions' offspring present for the judges to feel comfortable rating them in that regard. So I apologize for the confusion again. Now, what I really should have said was that if the judges did not feel our stallions' conformation and in-hand movement was of sufficient quality, then I would no longer breed them. I know that it's important to be able to judge a horse on more than just conformation and in-hand movement, but that's all I am ready for at this time. I do feel it's important to start somewhere and this is where we're going to start. I guess since there is some question about whether the riding type is being favored now (I hope to find that's not true, but we'll see) I am going to reserve the right to differ with the judges if the ONLY reason they don't think one should be bred is that he's too drafty. The older stallion Leif is not huge at just under 14 hands, but he is pretty solid. So if other Fjord owners here in the Southeast would like to join me in a conformation clinic, please let me know. If enough of you respond that you want the riding &/or driving &/or draft tests also, we'll see what we can do to organize them. Thanks, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Southeast Fjord owners
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To all Fjord owners and enthusiasts in the Southeast, I am planning on asking Bob Van Bon and Arve Rolstad to come to this area in September while they are in the States. There are no firm plans yet, and before making any I would like to hear from anyone who would be interested in having their horse(s) looked at. When you reply to me privately at[EMAIL PROTECTED] please also indicate whether you would be interested in having your horse checked out for conformation only, or conformation plus one or more of the performance tests. Before anyone jumps to conclusions, let me make my intentions clear with this visit from Mr. Van Bon and Mr. Rolstad. First of all, while some on the list ( whose opinions I do respect) seem to feel that having any European Fjord experts come to look at our horses is a threat to the American evaluation program, I do not feel the same. I do not see that it is a competition between the two. While the US evaluators have amply demonstrated their competence and expertise, the two gentleman mentioned above have more Fjord experience than most of us on the List put together. I feel it would be a terribly wasted opportunity for us not to avail ourselves of their guidance and instruction. When comparing the "American" program to the "European" programs, I'm reminded of when I started out as a veterinarian. At first there were quite a few clients who preferred to have the practice owner come to their farm, rather than the new vet. It wasn't a personal thing, because they hadn't even met me yet. And it wasn't because they didn't think I could do a good job. That's simply the way things are; They wanted the one with the experience. If I had taken exception to this attitude, I would not have made it as a veterinarian. I simply had to bide my time, while doing the best job I could do, and wait to be accepted by our clients. And now I am accepted and trusted, and I sit back and watch the same thing happening to the new veterinarians who come to the clinic. The American program is the new vet, so to speak, and it is going to have to bide it's time and prove itself by doing the best job it can do. Some good Evaluations have been put on, and now a good evaluator training program has begun. It will only be a matter of time until virtually all are comfortable with the program and it won't be "the new vet" anymore. Or here's another way to look at the visit from the gentlemen mentioned above. If you had a choice of John Lyons or someone that he had trained to come to your farm for a clinic, which one would you choose? You'd pick John Lyons of course. Does this mean that the clinician that Mr. Lyons had trained would not do a good job? Of course not. Especially if John Lyons trained him, you could virtually be assured he would do a good job. On the other hand, if John wasn't available and you still wanted to have the clinic, what would you do? You'd have the other clinician and I'm sure be very satisfied. To further clarify my position, I have never met Bob Van Bon, and it has been years since we have imported any horses from Norway. I have no reason to suspect anything other than a totally impartial opinion from the gentlemen. Finally, as a public statement of my committment to the Evaluation of Fjords, we are going to have both of our stallions evaluated; And if the esteemed Fjord judges say that one or the other does not pass muster as a stallion, I will join Vivian Creigh in asserting he will never be bred again. I would dread hearing those words because I feel we have two very good stallions, but I am willing to subjugate my feelings to the greater good of the breed. Once again, to those in the Southeast who think they would be interested in participating, please e-mail me off-list at[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Evaluators not missing anything
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/14/00 7:00:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, Gayle Ware wrote: >Each time that I have presented horses in performance, whether they belonged to me or a >client, our evaluators 'never missed a lick.' Whenever I show or perform a pattern, I feel >every single, tiny, imperfection in the performance. Most of the time, those little glitches >are pretty much undetectable to the average observer. NOT SO when it comes to our two >primary evaluators. They haven't missed a single one and they were 'so noted' on my >score sheets. Gayle, I was a little surprised upon reading this. The thought that the Evaluators note every tiny little imperfection made was surprising to me. I thought the horse was being evaluated, not the rider. And I also thought that essentially the basic skills were being evaluated, meaning that the evaluators weren't necessarily trying to catch every tiny imperfection that occurs. If they worry about the tiny mistakes you, as a seasoned, experienced rider make, what in the world is a person like me with much less experience to do? Confused, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
pasturing stallions together
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Anita, In your post about which horses were the boss(es) in your herd, you mentioned keeping the stallions together. How did you go about introducing two mature stallions that had never been together? It would be handy to be able to keep two stallions together, but I have always been afraid to try it. Thanks, Brian Jacobsen
Re: Lost twins
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As Renee wrote, it is heartbreaking to have a mare go through 9 or more months of pregnancy and then lose twins. One way to minimize this heartbreak is to have ultrasound exams performed on your mare. A pregnancy can usually be detected at 14 days after the last breeding, and sometimes twins are picked up here but not always. Having a second ultrasound performed at 21 days makes the visualization of twins more reliable. It is best not to wait much after 21 days to allow for enough time to try to do something about one of the twins. If you wait too long, and both vesicles (the tiny embryo plus its surrounding fluid) are lost instead of just one, the mare's body will keep telling her she's pregnant (even though she's not) throughout most of the rest of the breeding season, and you'll probably have to write that year off for breeding. When we talk about "doing something" with the vesicles, it usually means that the veterinarian decides which vesicle looks "best", and tries to squeeze or pinch the other to rupture it. This can be difficult as they are often right next to each other. Sometimes the veterinarian's job will be made easier as one will spontaneously regress between the 14 day and 21 day ultrasound. You might wonder if you could get away with just the 21 day ultrasound to save a little on expense. That is always your choice as the mare's owner, but be aware that better judgements can be made by the veterinarian if he/she has more than one exam to base decisions on. It is easy to confuse a cyst (small, benign, fluid-filled structure) with an embryonic vesicle (also a small fluid-filled structure). Since a cyst will usually remain the same size with successive ultrasound exams, but the vesicle will enlarge, it is easier to differentiate the two with more than one ultrasound exam. Why are we concerned about twins in mares? It almost always ends in disaster. Not only do both twins usually die, but the health (and very life) of the mare is more at risk than with a normal pregnancy. Dystocia (difficult birth) and retained fetal membranes (retained placenta) are two things that are more likely with a twin birth. The widespread use of ultrasound has dramatically increased our knowledge in the area of equine reproduction. Not only can it help with timing of breeding and pregnancy diagnosis, including detecting twins, but also with detecting common problems such as cysts and ovarian tumors. If you are not already using ultrasound in your breeding program, please consider it. Sincerely, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: the best
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Tillie, I missed the question you asked me in this message the first time around. You are welcome to use that however you like. Thanks for asking. Brian >This message is from: Evers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > WOW!! > THANK"S DOC, BRIAN > I have saved your article and I would like to use it to print up, >and >give to people with an interest in all Fjords. Truth in each sentence >from >alot of our experences over the years. May I use your contribution to >all >the people who stop in and want to learn about them. Tillie
Re: winter foaling
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Saskia, Thanks for your reply. For a planned breeding, I think most people would agree with you that if you had to pick one best time, in the Northern Hemisphere, late April or May would be best. Reasons such as Cathy Koshman gave (showing, etc) might change this. But for the average person, that time of year usually works well. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Validity of the Old Ways
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Carol, Don't worry too much about me and others having fun with the idea of hefting testicles in stallions. Being able to laugh is one of the keys to a healthy and fulfilled life. While I was HAVING fun with the idea of hefting, I was not MAKING fun of it. Also, my impression, back when the original discussion was occurring, was that most people were treating it the same. While the idea may have seemed a little funny to them upon hearing it for the first time, they weren't making fun of it. But now I'm going to have some fun with something Jean Gayle wrote. She wrote, >"Hmmm! Just wondering how those stallions are going to react to all of >this, especially the calipers! As I said though, I watched this hefting at >a horse market in either Spain or Italy. Jean, I hate to tell you, but if they were hefting testicles at a horse market in Europe, they weren't evaluating a potential breeder; They were seeing how much Rocky Mountain Oysters they were going to get from the horse!! (Or Alp Oysters, or whatever they call them over there) ; ) Seriously, though. Carol is right about testicular size being important in a stallion. It is not the most important attribute, but it is one important attribute. Anybody that owns a stallion should ask their veterinarian to palpate the testicles occasionally to ensure everything feels OK. And it should be done somewhat carefully as not all stallions are crazy about the idea of having their nether regions so closely investigated. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:18:02 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) writes: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) > > > >Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia >- > >A week or so ago, Brian Jacobsen made a humourous comment about >judging a >prospective breeding stallion by the size of his testicles. A lot of >other >people had fun with that as well. Brian alluded to "someone highly >placed >in the Fjord world" (not a direct quote since I can't find the actual >posting) using this low tech method. I guess the "someone" he alluded >to >was Bob van Bon as that's a story Van Bon told me years ago, and I've >often >repeated it. Bob said that if, at a stallion show, he saw a stallion >he >was interested in, and didn't want to make his interest obvious for >fear of >driving the price up, he would surreptitiously heft the scrotum to >get an >idea if the stallion merited further consideration. --- Some people on >the >List seemed to feel this was rather a silly, ineffectual method of >judging >a stallion's breeding potential, and I have been dying to defend Van >Bon's >method ever since, because, for one thing, I've got tremendous respect >for >the man. For another, I've also learned that many "low tech/no tech" >old >fashioned methods have merit, even in the 21st century. > >However, I knew there was more than old horsemen's folk wisdom in >regard to >this subject. I knew that somewhere in my library, I'd read about >this, >but it wasn't until today that I've had time to dig it out. So here >it is - > >The book is THE STALLION, by E.L. Squires, PhD. E. L. Squires, PhD, >is the >supervisor of the Equine Reproductive Laboratory at Colorado State >University. > >Chapter 2, Breeding Soundness Exam. (stallions) pg. 25 . . . >."Pickett et >all (1988) reported on breeding soundness examinations of 1,044 >stallions >between 1968 and 1987. These data were used to compare seminal >characteristics and total scrotal width of stallions which "passed" a >seminal evaluation to those which "failed." . . . . . One of the >most >important parts of the breeding soundness examination is palpation >and >measurement of the stallion's testes. Each individual testis should >be >evaluated separately by placing the thumb on the lateral part of the >testicle and the fingers on the medial portion. . . . .Total scrotal >width >assessed by using calipers, is the best measurement for predicting >sperm >output of the stallion. > >REFERENCES: > >Love, CC, Garcia, MC, Riera, FR, and Kenney, RM. 1991. Evaluation of >measures taken by ultrasonography and calipers to estimate testicular >volume and predict daily sperm output in the stallion. J. Reprod. >Fertility, Suppl. 44:99-105. > >The entire body of knowledge dealing with the care, use, and breeding >of >horses has been accumulated over thousands of years. I've known old >horsemen who didn't finish grade school who were masters of >horsemanship. >A good example, is our old friend, Coupe, now deceased. I dedicated >my >book to Coupe, and have enormous respect for his knowledge and >abilities. >Yet, I was guilty of scepticism with some of Coupe's advice. For >example, >he used to say if a horse had a serious wound, I should "pack it with >sugar". He said it helped to prevent what he called "plowed
weed control
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Has anyone used a salt solution to control weeds around fence lines? You know how a salt block will kill all the grass and weeds around it eventually? Well, I've been reluctant to start spraying with chemicals, so I've been wondering if a salt solution could be put in a sprayer and used around fence lines for the same purpose. Anyone know? Thanks, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
winter foaling
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was just curious, if those who have had foals born in the last month wouldn't mind being asked, about the reasons for having a foal born at this time of the year. Was it planned? Were you wanting to be able to wean the foal to still have the mare to use for most of the summer? Or were the mare and stallion together and that's just when it happened? Etc. Anyone willing to comment? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Greys - David Klove
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peg Knutsen writes: >Tsk, tsking someone for bad puns, >bad jokes, etc, is actually a twisted form of praise and recognition. It >even, shudder, invites the offending person to continue. Where will it >end? >And, Dr. Brian, I certainly do NOT intend to do such an undignified thing to >Erlend - I'm sure he would find my spreading of such personal information >quite an intrusion on his privacy. How rude! He's very sensitive, you >know OTOH, if we could find a way to spread such "heavy" information to >all interested mares, he might feel differently Dear Peg, How you like to harp, harry, heckle and harangue! How can you hazard the highly hopeful hypothesis that the information harking from the hinterlands would be Herculeanly heavy if you haven't hefted? Now hurry out there, hunker down, (Heaven help us if any horseplay happens), and heft! Brian J.
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:42:52 -0800 "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >There is a Zeony, a cross between the zebra stallion and a shetland, >preferably white. Scientist have studied this cross as it has >different genes. I do not know if all zebra crosses have different genes >Brian? Steve? Jean Apparently so, yes. Different numbers than either of the contributing parents. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Branding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes Catherine, Mike is right; That is a brand that Cliff Baltzley used. We sold Lyder to Cliff as a weanling. In the early days we used lip tattoing which worked well for a while. But as someone mentioned, the tattoo becomes unintelligible after a number of years. So Lyder was unblemished when he left us : ). We are now starting to microchip ours. Lyder is supposed to have 22 on one shoulder, and bar-x-bar on the other. The bar-x-bar actually looks something like: - X - Brian
Re: Grey Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:51:22 -0800 "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Excuse me, but wouldn't that be TWO pieces of information? :)) Jean You're so right Jean. Did I sleep through that part of anatomy class? ; ) Brian >>This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>I may even see >>if someone who's been mentioned on this list would be willing to come surreptitiously >>heft his well, um, er..I guess you had to be there. (It was just one piece of information >>that a person who's very knowledgeable about Fjords uses to judge whether they're >>stallion quality or not) : ). >> >
Re: Grey Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:19:39 -0600 "Mark and Lisa K. McGinley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >I think Sarah would like you to extend your metaphor (so to speak) :) > >Mark Extend my metaphor?! Goodness, Gracious, Great Balls of Fire! Brian P.S. Sarah - that last phrase is the answer to your question. > >Sarah Vogeley wrote: > >> This message is from: "Sarah Vogeley" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> You've got me really guessing on this one!Elaborate please, >please, >> please! >> >> _ >> >> Sarah Vogeley >> New Forest Farm >> Charlottesville, VA >> >> -- >> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com >> >Subject: Re: Grey Fjords >> >Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000, 5:25 AM >> > >> I may even see if someone who's been mentioned on >this >> > list would be willing to come surreptitiously heft his well, um, >> > er..I guess you had to be there. (It was just one piece of >> > information that a person who's very knowledgeable about Fjords >uses to >> > judge whether they're stallion quality or not) : ). >
Re: The Horse Magazine
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:33:51 -0800 "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I second Sarah's voice on "THE HORSE: Your Guide to Equine Health Care" >magazine. It is well written and very informative. Some items are published >that even my Vets have not heard of. The address is... >http://www.thehorse.com >or send $ 30.00 to The Horse: Your Guide to Equine Health Care, P.O. Box 4680, Lexington, KY 40544-4680. It is produced by The Blood-Horse, Inc. FYI Catherine Lassesen > > I third the recommendation of The Horse; It's very good. The subscription form on the website (click on "Get a free copy) indicates the price is $24. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Fjord microchips
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:04:04 -0500 "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Well if you consider me a National database then yes. Otherwise no. >They are only recorded here by me. I guess the company that sells the Registry the chips keeps a record of which numbers they sell us? Anotherwards, if a lost/stolen/slaughter house-bound Fjord was scanned and found to have a chip, Destron or whoever would know to contact the NFHR? And do you also have a record of sequential chip numbers so that you could then locate the owner? Brian
Re: Grey Fjords' anatomy...
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:23:10 -0800 "Knutsen Fjord Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Dr. Brian, have you no shame?! > >Disapprovingly, Peg Knutsen, Knutsen Fjord Farm, Mark started it! : ) Brian
Fjord microchips
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike, Are the Fjords registered with a national database after you receive the Microchipping Form? Brian
Foreverton Farm
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 05:53:10 -0800 "Lynch/Stidham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >I being the new comer to the list am going to take a big risk here and say something that >could get me in alot of trouble with meny of you. Dear Caitlin, Thanks for taking the "risk" to clear up the misconceptions about this farm. Newcomer or not, it is always right to clear up misinformation about a person. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Grey Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:11:20 +0800 "Sarah Vogeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Are grey colts less likely to be gelded because of their color? Unfortunately, it seems that way. As the breeder of a grey colt whom I believe may be good enough to be kept intact, I can tell you that I feel the temptation to offer him for sale no matter whether he's good enough or not. I'm not saying I'm going to do that, but my point is that everyone with a grey colt faces that temptation simply because it's possible. At least at present, there is a ready market for greys. I have made up my mind not to decide about selling or gelding him until he's two years old by which time I will hopefully have been able to have him evaluated. I may even see if someone who's been mentioned on this list would be willing to come surreptitiously heft his well, um, er..I guess you had to be there. (It was just one piece of information that a person who's very knowledgeable about Fjords uses to judge whether they're stallion quality or not) : ). In any case, I would like to challenge those who end up with a grey colt to evaluate him just as strictly as a brown or any other color. Color does not equal quality. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of people still prefer brown dun over grey. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Equine ID Brands
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freeze branding is easier on the horse than branding with a hot iron, but unfortunately a freeze brand does not show up well on a light colored horse. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
great resource
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is a great resource for horse owners that has recently become available on-line as well as in magazine form. I have been getting the magazine for a number of years and love it. It is called The Mane Points and it is published by the Southern States Cooperative. The magazine is available free if you live in one of the states the company services with its stores. Despite the name, this includes most of the Northeast and Southeast. If you're geographically disadvantaged, however, : ) you can still subscribe for $12 per year which includes four issues per year (and it is very well worth it). BUT, the articles are free to all on their website. As most of you know, I like horse owners to have access to information that: - covers subjects of interest to almost anyone that owns a horse, - is applicable to all horse owners, independent of their level of equine experience, - is very practical, - and is easy to read and understand, and that's exactly what this magazine is. I myself get quite a bit out of it as an equine veterinarian. And they are especially good at covering that mysterious subject of FEEDING and NUTRITION. Lest this start sounding like an informercial, I'll cut it short. The website address is www.manepoints.com .There's a place on there where you can find out if you live in a state that qualifies for a free subscription. To see categories and titles of articles, simply scroll down the home page. You can also search for specific words or subjects (be warned - the search is a little slow). One word about the articles. Since this magazine is produced by a feed and farm supply company, there are occasional references to their products. But the main thrust is education, not promotion, so you don't find them too often. If you can't access the website for some reason, the mailing address for subscriptions is The Mane Points, PO Box 26234, Richmond, VA 23260. Enjoy! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Foal trimming, aussie, electric fence
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:45:02 -0800 "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Misha, I would never touch those wires. I pick a blade of grass, wet it with my tongue and then rest the blade on the hot wire. It gives you a trickle if the wire is hot. Be sure, of course, the blade of grass is not from a corner etc, re dogs. Yuk!! Jean Jean, I hate to take away the thrill and challenge of not knowing whether you've picked a piece of grass that's never been pooped on by a bird, peed on by a dog, stepped on by a horse's dirty foot, growing out of a pile of horse poop, etc... : ) But you don't have to lick it! The water in the grass transmits electricity just as well as any moisture you put on the outside. I wouldn't blame you if you keep licking them though. No element of mystery and danger the other way! Carpe diem!! Brian : )
Re: Help!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail, I wonder if these sites might be of help to you: www.hayexchange.com/hay.htm www.newmexicoranch.com/newmexico/hay-page/ www.firstthunder.com There are other hay sellers and brokers that you can find on the net. Those came from a quick search of "hay broker". Also, if you can find Dengie anywhere, it's hay in a bag. Hi-Fi Lite or Good Doer are for horses that gain weight easily. Expensive but good. I'm sure you know this, but don't run out of hay completely and then have to suddenly switch to alfalfa. Good Luck! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: the best?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >This message is from: Pat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Never intended to make for hard feelings. Personally I was thinking along the >lines of Brian Jacobson's Grandfather, someone like that... Pat, I appreciate your thought that my grandfather was one of the most influential people in the Fjord breed in this country. I think he was too. : ) And I was not trying to make light of your suggestion that we discuss influential people and Fjords; I believe it's good for people new to Fjords to hear about the people and horses that had (have) major influences on the breed. Thanks, Brian
Re: the best?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fjord Horse of the Century is the one that draws the shy child out of his shell; the one that nickers every time you come out the front door; the one that enjoys each member of the family riding him; the one that treats a handicapped rider as precious cargo; the one that keeps her head where horses of many other breeds would lose it; the one that doesn't mind you in the same stall with her foal; the one that is climbing the levels in Dressage training; the one that is so gentle it takes a moment for visitors to realize he is a stallion; the one who is winning in driving competitions, the one who hooks you for life and makes you a Fjord addict; the one who is better on a trail ride than anyone else's horse; and the one who never makes it out of the owners' pasture but means the world to them. The Most Influential Person in the Fjord World is the person who talks to everyone and anyone about her Fjords for as long as they'll listen because she just can't help it; the person who feeds his Fjords before he eats in the morning and evening; the person who gets their Fjords out in public and demonstrates how versatile and personable they are; the person who can't really take their Fjord anywhere but loves them just the same; the person who breeds with the idea of "Not what can these Fjords do for me, but what can I do for the Fjords?"; the person who hears someone put Fjords' abilities down and sets out to prove them wrong; the person who is a pioneer in a new area of Fjord use; the person who commits herself to lifelong learning about horses and their care and Fjords in particular; the person who is always there in the background, staying out of the limelight, but always helping with Fjord events; and most of all, the person whose every thought and action, in terms of the Fjords, is based on true love for them and a desire to do what's best for them! Folks, ours are the horses and we are the people! Every day let your conduct and your care of your horses be governed by the realization that your horse is going to be the Fjord Horse of the Century to someone today, and you yourself are going to be the most influential person in the Fjord world to someone today. It may only be to the quiet little neighbor girl, but who can begin to know what she she might do with her life, and what your influence will have meant to her? Your contribution counts; Keep it up! Brian Jacobsen
Re: Goats may be a Baaaaaaaad idea.....; )
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lisa, what a post!! That is probably the best primer on goat care in a nutshell (summary) that I have ever read. While parts of it may sound discouraging to people, I just want to emphasize that if you know what you are getting into, and prepare as well as you can, goats can be very useful and a lot of fun. Thanks Lisa. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: acorns
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:48:44 -0500 Ingrid Ivic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >I am curious about the acorns you mentioned above...aren't they poisonus to horses? Hi Ingrid, You are right to be concerned, because in large enough amounts they can be. It is often difficult to know with "poisonous plants" how much "large enough amounts" are. I have treated a family's cow who was allowed to eat a wheelbarrow full of acorns. She survived, but she suffered kidney damage. We have many oak trees in this area, and many horses, but I've not treated any yet with problems that were known to have been caused by acorn ingestion. It would definitely be a possibility though, if one were allowed to eat enough. In my mind, the situation that has the most potential for danger is where a horse, who does not have regular access to acorns, is allowed to gorge on them. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Leik, McGuire
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Debi, Leik is brown dun. The grey (McGuire) comes from crossing Leik with Dragtind offspring. Leik has sired 5 grey foals in this manner: 2 by a Dragtind daughter (Hilda), and 3 by three different Dragtind granddaughters.I have been investigating McGuire's genotype for color, and if my figuring is right, there are two possibilities. If he were the first type (43% chance), then when bred to grey mares all his foals would also be grey. Even if bred to mares of other colors, the only color foals he could have are brown, grey, and white dun. If he is the second type (57% chance), then when bred to grey mares, his offspring could be grey, red, or yellow. And if he were bred to mares other than grey, then brown dun and white dun foals could also result. >I would like your opinion if this is to close to breed?? There was a discussion on the list >about line breeding but there never seemed a clear defination of how close was too >close. Since people have different ideas about what linebreeding is, the definition I use is when a certain horse appears more than once in the first four generations of a pedigree. (Start counting generations with the first sire and dam shown. Don't count the actual horse the pedigree belongs to). Many people don't feel there is anything wrong with linebreeding used to develop certain characteristics in the offspring. Bonnie Hendrix pointed out that a number of breeds are what they are today as a result of this method of breeding. Steve McIlree pointed out that Fjords may be the best example of linebreeding that there ever was, because all Fjords today descend basically from one stallion. The result of linebreeding is that certain traits are intensified. Sometimes it's good traits; Sometimes it's bad. Keep in mind also that not all genes are manifested as an outward trait of the horse, meaning that some are hidden. A horse could have a gene that codes for an undesirable trait, but it's one that won't be displayed until several generations down the road. I often hear people say about linebreeding, "You'll either get a real great horse, or a real dud." Well, that sounds good, but it's not true. The result is usually much like with non-linebreeding crosses: most offspring are average, some are above average, and some are below average. Now it makes sense that you should only use the above-average horses to continue the breeding program, right? But what do you do with the average and below-average? In countries or breeding programs where there is strict control over the whole breeding process, these horses can be eliminated from the breeding pool (gelded, slaughtered, eaten, etc.). Here in the US though, what do we do with them? Sure you can geld colts, but what do you do with the mares? It's expensive and there's risk to "spaying" a mare. And most people would not allow them to be eaten or even humanely euthanized. How many people do you know that own a mare who are going to be willing not to breed her for the rest of her life? And getting back to the colts, not all breeders are willing to geld all the colts that don't pass muster. Honestly, almost all colts (or fillies) look very nice at a few months of age. So consider this scenario: "So you don't think the colt I bought to be my breeding stallion is turning out that well? You're telling me I should geld him? Do you know how much money I paid for that colt?! Get lost!!" You see what I mean? For a linebreeding program to be successful there has to be strict culling of individuals that don't measure up. And here in this country, we don't have the will or the way to do that. You might wonder what's wrong with using the average horses that result from linebreeding. The answer is, it's the hidden things. Some are good and some are bad, but you won't know until it's too late to do anything about it. If we're going to breed average horses, we're better off using ones that are totally unrelated so that the chances of intensifying identical traits is less. However, despite having said all that, I'm not necessarily telling you I don't think you should breed McGuire to your mare. In that breeding, of the names that you mentioned, only the stallion Grabb would appear twice in the four most recent generations. And one time he appears it is on the sire's side, while the other time it is on the dam's side. Also, if he were just one generation farther back on the dam's side, it would be beyond four generations, and it wouldn't even be line breeding. Consider too that Grabb is one of the finest stallions Norway has ever had. He has had enough offspring and grand-offspring and great grand-offspring, etc, that have been judged by some of the best Fjord Horse judges in the world, that I feel safe saying he does not have any undesirable hidden traits that one would need to worry about. Finally, you can find any number of pedigrees of good Fjords, in Norway a
Re: M E R R Y C H R I S T M A S
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike and Renee, Thanks for the e Christmas card! Hope you are having wonderful holidays! Sincerely, Brian, Barb, and Daniel
Re: Eqvalan (Welcome to the New List)
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean, in regards to your request for a veterinary comment, you wrote: >The Eqvalan is specifically labled for oral use , but the Ivomec is labled for injection. >However the Merck Factory rep said they were identical. I quess you should verify this >for yourself somehow and not take my word for it! :) First, so that no one mistakes Jean's intent, realize that the Ivomec is labeled for injection in CATTLE, not horses. For a short time the injectable was available for horses, but after a few horses died from Clostridial infections at the injection site, the company discontinued it. Also, there is an Ivomec injectable for swine that is a different strength than the cattle product. I have actually never bothered to ask if the Ivomec injectable was exactly the same as the Eqvalan oral formula. I had just assumed (dangerous to do) that since they were labeled for different species, they were slightly different. I will say, though, that a veterinarian is putting him/herself on slightly shaky ground if they sell a non-labeled product for a horse (Ivomec) when there is an effective and available product that is labeled for horses (Eqvalan), even if the contents are exactly the same. So that everyone knows what paste wormer we are talking about replacing, the active ingredient in Eqvalan is the same as what's in Zimectrin, Equimectrin, and Rotectin I. >I thought it might be more of a hassle to administer the liquid instead of the paste, but it >actually was easier, as I squirted it in with a 12 CC plastic syringe without a needle and >they made no attempt to spit it out. I agree. As long as you are careful, using the liquid is just as good as the paste. Our Fjords love the taste! >My vet used a "drenching syringe" which he hooked directly to the bottle of >Eqvalan for multiple doses. However.he said I could save money if I would >give it myself and he would sell me a bottle; Yes, a person can save money with the liquid. >[He also said] that the liquid was really much more effective. It is apparently immediately >absorbed through the mucous membranes of the mouth, etc. into the blood stream and >gets any larvae moving around in the blood and tissues, altho not the encysted ones. >I suppose the paste does the same, but gets diluted with the stomach contents. I don't really think the mucous membranes in the horse's mouth can absorb 10cc of liquid before the horse has a chance to swallow it, so much or most of it probably still gets to the stomach. In fact, if anything, the paste probably stays in the mouth longer. Compare how it would be for a person to try to swallow a teaspoon of toothpaste vs. a teaspoon of water. I don't think the difference in consistency really matters though; They both work well. (Incidently, Ivomec is a good dewormer for goats, sheep, and llamas when given orally. It is labeled to be used as an injection; However, many people are reluctant to give shots, so they use it orally. As long as a person is careful and makes sure it all gets in there, it seems to work fine. And while we're on the subject, if you have goats, deworm them at least four times per year. We see more problems with wormy goats than wormy horses. ) Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: parasites cross-species?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marsha Jo wrote: Got a question for those of you whose "barnyard" includes non-equines. What problems do equines have with parasites/diseases from other species? In general, horses are not bothered much by diseases and parasites that affect the ruminants you mentioned. In the conditions of overpopulation that you describe though, if the animals are not being properly cared for, the concentration of harmful bacteria and intestinal parasites may be artificially high. This may result in a situation where organisms that normally do not cause problems in horses might be able to do so. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: List must move (READ and RESPOND!)
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Steve, What would be the feasibility of setting up the List website to handle the list traffic? I am under the impression that a program could be written to perform the basic e-mail functions that a list such as ours needs; Is this correct? Would it be feasible at all in terms of cost and difficulty? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: winterfoals
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:03:40 +0100 "saskia schoofs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Kitty will have her foal in January (at last!) and I begin to be very nervous: >- should I buy a blanket for the foal? what if it freezes and the foal is wet and so on, how do you protect it? If the foal is born in a stall, protected from the wind and the wet, most likely it will be fine. We had one born in January one time, and he came out with a full winter coat! I would second Pam's advice about having blankets nearby, but not using them unless there are problems. You can be prepared with some towels to dry the baby off. >Do you lock her when the birth is announcing itself and how long do you keep her "in"? You might start shutting her in at night and during bad weather starting about two weeks before she's due. Also, you might want to put her in a stall if you have to be away during the day for a length of time. Mares are notorious for not giving you any advance warning that they are preparing to foal. In regards to whether or not to keep the Shetland pony in with her, there are pros and cons. She would probably appreciate the company since you say they are used to being together. If they're just going to be across the fence from each other though, that's fine too. Some cons would be that 1) sometimes a newborn foal imprints on another horse in the pasture, rather than its mother. This means that the foal is following the other horse, and the mare is chasing the other horse to try to keep it away from the foal, and everyone is upset. 2) A mare becomes very protective after it's foal is born. Other equines that, as little as an hour previously were friends, are now threats. Foals have been kicked and run over, etc, as mares were chasing away other inquisitive pasture mates. >- When can I return her and her foal to the others? Sybren (2 years and half old) and >Zeno (16 months) are still not gelded and as Belgium is covered with snow now, I don't >know if I'll be able to have it done before the birth. In each case they should be gelded >before I reunite them with Kitty. Kitty will most likely come in heat just 5-7 days after the foal is born, so don't put them back in there if you don't want her rebred that soon. >- what should I have in my medicine locker? Have a phone and your veterinarian's number handy. It would probably be good for you to ask him under what conditions he would like you to call him. In general, though, if you can tell the mare has been in labor for more than 15-20 minutes, and you're not yet starting to see part of the foal, you've got problems. If that happens, first call the vet so he can head your way. There's not much time to save a foal if things aren't going right. He'll tell you what he wants you to do while he's driving to your house. Something that usually helps predict when a foal is coming is the test kit that tests for calcium in the mare's milk. Have you heard of these? Each day you squeeze a few drops of milk out of the mare onto a paper test strip. Usually within 24 hours of delivery, there is a dramatic increase in the concentration of Calcium in the milk which causes the paper strip to turn a different color than it had been on previous days. These kits aren't perfect, but they're good. They can help minimize the midnight and early morning trips out to the barn, and they can maximize the chances you will be nearby when the mare foals. Hope everything goes well Saskia! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
horses playing with sticks
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For those of you whose horses sometimes pick up a stick and play with it, you might not want to let them do that. One of our clients has a stallion that liked to do that, and one day when he was running with a largestick (branch) in his mouth, one end hit the ground and he impaled himself in the chest with the other end. The stick went in about twelve inches and it was somewhat of a miracle that it didn't hit anything important. A month later, after much care and heavy duty antibiotics, he was fine. I realize obviously that for some it will be impossible for the horses not to have access to sticks, but I would sure try to clear out the sticks that you can if you have a horse that does this. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: babies/germs/fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:52:54 -0800 "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >Brian, Salmonella would show wouldn;t it?. A horse would have projectile >diarrhea etc? And be very sick Some horses are chronic "carriers" of Salmonella. They are not visibly sick, but they shed Salmonella in their stool. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Purple Stuff and Wonder Dust
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:59:11 -0800 GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >Now you've done it Brian! Contradicted my recently departed veterinarian - >AND destroyed everything I thought I knew about wound treatment. :) > >The veterinarian that I had before the current one recommended Wonder Dust >and air exposure for a bad nick on a horse's cannon. This was after proud >flesh had already established itself and been trimmed away. and >I thought I'd gotten at least one thing down correctly from her - "Put Wonder Dust on >wounds likely to result in proud flesh." For those on the List who have not yet encountered Proud Flesh, here's a brief description. When a wound occurs that can't be/is not sutured, it has to heal by means of new tissue filling in the defect, and then skin growing across. The tissue that fills in the wound is called "granulation tissue". There is something peculiar about horses in that, occasionally, a leg wound will heal "too well", meaning that the granulation tissue will not stop growing when it is level with the skin. Instead, it keeps growing which results in a mound of tissue sticking out from the wound. This is called excessive granulation tissue, or proud flesh. This extra tissue prevents the skin from covering the wound because the skin needs a level surface to grow across. Proud flesh seems to be inevitable with some leg wounds in horses. There are some things that can be done, though, to decrease the amount that forms. The pressure from bandaging helps. "Immobilizing" the wound via bandaging and stall rest helps. I put immobilizing in quotes because we can't keep a horse from moving, but we can try to limit it. Ointments with steroids in them help, but steroids also slow down skin growth, so that is a trade-off. Various powders, creams, and ointments such as Wonder Dust and Proudsoff can help. Different veterinarians have different preferences about what to use and when. If the products designed to slow/prevent proud flesh are used while the wound is still healing (i.e. before it has filled in completely), then these products slow the healing. The very tissue they slow down is the tissue needed to fill in the wound. My preference is to get the wound filled in as quickly as possible, utilizing bandaging and stall rest if necessary, and then deal with proud flesh if it forms. My beef with Wonder Dust is (are) the following: a) Not all parts of a wound always need proud flesh treatment. Some parts may have filled in just right, and some parts may have excessive tissue. It is hard to keep a powder or dust from covering the whole wound. With an ointment, such as Proudsoff Ointment, it is easier to get it just where you need it. b) Not all wounds end up with proud flesh. If Wonder Dust has been used on a wound that wasn't going to end up with excessive healing tissue anyhow, then all that was done was slow down the healing. c) People misuse Wonder Dust frequently. It really is designed to combat excessive granulation tissue, but many people use it as an all purpose wound treatment, i.e. just throw it on any wound. I must confess that I was a little harsh in my condemnation of Wonder Dust in the initial post; It is good for what it was intended for. It's just that it is more often used for something it wasn't intended for, than something it was (see c. above). Gail also wrote: >My current amateur veterinary rule for minor wounds - from watching the previous vet >treat various minor wounds- is to clean and cover above the knee (if covering is >possible) and clean and Wonder Dust below the knee. It is true that proud flesh is more likely to form in wounds below the knee (carpus) than above it, so I assume that's why your previous veterinarian had the treatment preference you listed. As I stated in the initial post though, anytime you can bandage a wound, if you have seen how to do it properly, do it. You know how the body will try to form a scab if the wound is exposed to the air? This is the body's attempt to form a bandage because you did not put one on. The moist environment under a bandage will encourage healing, and the pressure from the bandage will decrease excessive granulation tissue formation. While bandaging is not always feasible, it is always desireable. So my recommendation would be to modify your rule of thumb slightly, Gail, to, "Clean all wounds. Bandage if possible. Use a mild antiseptic ointment as needed. Use proud flesh product if granulation tissue is starting to be excessive." Gail also writes: >Oh - And one more question. I have been tempted to use Wonder Dust above >the knee as well - on wounds that could not be covered easily (most places >on a horse's upper body) because *dirt doesn't stick to it.* Is there any kind of spray on >bandage that will actually stay in place on upper body wounds? I have not had experience with "spray-on bandages" (like Dermaplast that
Re: sand colic
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A method of "measuring" whether there is too much sand in a horse was mentioned, and I feel it deserves some more discussion. Ask your veterinarian for some plastic sleeves (the kind he/she palpates with). Put one on and grab a BIG handful of one horse's fresh manure from the ground (taking care not to pick up sand with it). Turn the sleeve inside out as you take it off, then add enough water to it to easily cover the manure. Tie a knot in the shoulder end of the sleeve. "Scrunch" the water and manure together to mix. Hang sleeve, fingers pointing down, from a nail or gate, etc. Let sit for 5 minutes. Results: -If you cannot feel any sand in the tips of the fingers, likely your horse does not have a problem with sand accumulation. -If you can see/feel just a few grains of sand in each fingertip, same as above. -If you can see/feel a pea-sized amount, or more, of sand in the fingertips, your horse may be headed for trouble. If you want to be a little more technical about it, see the last issue of Equus for explanation on measuring exact parts of water and manure, etc. Your veterinarian can also help by listening with a stethoscope to your horse's ventral abdomen. Sometimes a veterinarian is treated to a quick, inexpensive trip to the beach while listening, because if there is a lot of sand in there, that's exactly what it sounds like - standing on the beach hearing the waves rush across the sand. Sounds crazy I know, but I've heard it several times. If your vet hears this, your horse definitely has sand trouble! What to do? I agree with Steve that the idea of using Psyllium doesn't seem to make sense. While people can benefit from fiber, especially because most of us do not get enough, hay and grass is fiber, so horses already get plenty. Psyllium is still recommended frequently, though, mostly for lack of something better. The BEST treatment (and preventative) is to have the horses eat somewhere other than on a sand surface. If you can stop sand from going in, the sand that's already in there will slowly work its way out. The feeder that Misha mentioned sounds like a good idea, as does feeding hay right on rubber mats like Marsha Jo says she does. Also consider making a "corner feeder" in a stall, and feed hay in there. (Nail plywood or boards across one corner of the stall making a triangular-shaped area to feed hay. Make it approx. 2-1/2 feet high and much of the hay stays in there.) Sue was right when she said "As I understand while ingesting dirt can be a problem, it is not as heavy as sand which can sit in the bottom of the stomach, it flushes out of the system easier." To know whether the surface your horses are eating from is likely to pose a problem or not, put a handful of it in a quart of water, mix it up as thoroughly as you can, and watch how fast and how completely it settles. (Do the same thing with sand if you want something to compare to). If it settles quickly and the water clears quickly (like sand), watch out! If the water stays muddy for a long time, and the material settles out slowly (like clay), you probably don't have much to worry about. If the result is somewhere in between, and you don't know what to think, use the following as guides: -If your horses have been there for several years and you've had no problems, you probably won't. -If you and your horses are new in the area, ask other horse owners if they've had problems. And ask the vet how often he/she sees sand problems. If rare or never, don't worry. If sometimes or often, take steps to reduce sand intake. Other warning signs for sand: -Occasional, mild colic that often resolves spontaneously or with minimal treatment by the vet. -Incisor teeth that wear faster than your veterinarian thinks they should be based on the horses' ages. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: babies/germs/fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It was asked what I thought about the above subject. I think it is great that most people realize that to try to be too sanitary is actually unhealthy. One caution I would give, though, is in the area of manure (from any animal). Manure from things other than people is less dangerous to people than is human waste, but animals' manure can still be dangerous in certain situations. Healthy adults and children usually would not have much to fear from manure as long as they wash their hands after handling it. Infants, elderly, and the immune compromised, though, should avoid contact with manure altogether. The greatest risk from equine manure would be Salmonella and E. coli. Both can cause severe illness or death in people (though it's rare). Most horses do not go around shedding Salmonella or the dangerous variety of E. coli, but some do. Other things to watch out for in animal manure: -Calves can shed Cryptosporidium which can cause severe diarrhea in any person - even healthy adults. Wash hands thoroughly after handling calves, especially if contact with manure was made. -Cats can have Toxoplasmosis which can infect a pregnant woman and cause serious problems in the fetus. Don't get rid of the cat; Just make the husband clean the litter box. -Puppy poop may contain worm eggs that can infect children and cause problems. (The particular worms are more likely found in puppies than adult dogs). Also keep puppies from licking children's faces because the puppy may have just licked his, well, you know... the place worm eggs come out. : 0 So in general, love the animals and play in the dirt, but wash your hands after handling manure, and keep infants, elderly, and immune compromised away from it all together. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Purple Stuff and Wonder Dust
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail, We will be out of town until Sunday. I'll write back when we return. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Running W
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Janet, Thanks for being a good enough sport to share your experience and the things you learned from it. You made some excellent points in your "Running W" post (i.e. buying too many horses, wrong saddle, wrong harness, etc.) Can I sum them all up with one thought? Don't buy anything you have little knowledge about before consulting an impartial expert. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine since as a veterinarian I commonly see people who have been sold a horse that is not really fitting for them. I'm not necessarily saying you got the wrong horses, but perhaps if you had spoken with a trainer who warned you how long it was really going to take and how expensive it might end up being, you would have purchased fewer horses. (It probably would have had to have been a trainer that was not a candidate for training your horses, to get an impartial opinion). Also, perhaps that trainer would have suggested that you, being inexperienced at driving, purchase experienced Fjords rather than green. Further, that trainer could have suggested exactly what you should look for in a harness and a cart, and could have tried a number of different saddles on your horses in an effort to find a kind that worked best. I hope everyone sees what I'm getting at. As a breeder I think I can get away with saying this. If you know nothing or next to nothing about horses, you are really taking a risk believing what the seller tells you about that animal. As a veterinarian again, the list of things people tell me the seller told them to explain away a limp or a bump, etc, is endless. For instance, he just got kicked yesterday, he's just a little tenderfooted from walking on the rocks, his eye runs like that all the time - I think it's allergies. All these sound very plausible, don't they. How can someone who knows virtually nothing about horses have any idea whether it's a minor problem that really did just happen like the seller says, or whether it's a serious problem that's been going on for a long time? Well, there is a way. Get an impartial, expert opinion. Arrange a veterinary prepurchase exam. If you are buying a used car and you don't know anything about cars, don't you have somebody look at it who knows something about them? If you are buying a harness and cart and know nothing about them, doesn't it make sense to take somebody with you who does? Unless you know the seller very well, you have no idea if they're being honest with you or they're just telling you what they think you want to hear. And in their defense, they may not even know what you really need, if you don't know yourself. So they just sell you a cart that they think is a good cart. And since I'm probably getting myself in hot water with anyone who's ever sold a horse or a cart, etc, let me really do it right. Don't ask your friend and the tack store owner; Ask someone who really has experience in the area. I honestly believe that the veterinarian is the third person who gets called when a person has a non-emergency problem with a horse. First they ask their friend/neighbor if they've ever seen anything like that. Then they ask the feed or tack store owner. Finally, several days later, when the horse still isn't any better, they call the vet. Now I'm not knocking friends and feed and tack store owners, but I am knocking their advice. As sincere as it is, very often it is not the best advice. For instance, how many of you have heard that you need to let the air get to a wound after it's been bandaged for a while so it can dry out and heal? That is absolutely, 100% wrong. Almost without exception, wounds heal better under a bandage. A moist environment is better for healing, and the bandage helps keep the wound clean, and decreases the amount of proud flesh that forms. Or how about using various ointments, sprays, and powders on wounds? In our area, the local favorites are Wonder Dust and some kind of Purple Spray. If I, as a horse owner in North Carolina, called a friend and asked what I should put on a wound, most likely that's what I would hear. Usually the names sound good - especially Wonder Dust. Sounds like it could heal anything, doesn't it? What the wonder really is, though, is that wounds ever heal with that stuff on them! It eats away healing tissue rather than promoting healing. And the purple spray is harsh and makes a big mess! Most wounds heal best if they can be cleaned well and then bandaged either with a very mild antiseptic ointment, or nothing at all on the wound. Anyhow, hope this will remind us all to seek the advice of someone who has experience before we buy something (and not from the person who's trying to sell you the "whatever" - they have too much at stake to be completely impartial and look out for YOUR best interests). Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Grabb's get
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Joel, You wrote: >I have a grandson of Grabb out of Grabbson & Ljosa N14691. I believe >Harold Jacobsen imported Ljosa & bought Grabbson back & renamed him >Grabbson. Is this correct Brian? Yes, we bred Grabb and Vindy in Carbondale, CO, before they left for Cliff Baltzley's in New Mexico. The foal was born there and was named Jens. When Harold bought him back from Cliff (Harold couldn't stand not having any Fjords) he changed it to Grabbson. Brian J.
burial place of Grabb & Dragtind
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:42:41 -0600 Walter Monheim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >This message is from: Walter Monheim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Brian, thanks so much for your further information on Grabb. I understand that both >stallions Grabb & Dragtind along with another stallion perhaps a son of one of them are >buried on what was Cliff's ranch in New Mexico. Is this correct? Thanks Sherle Hi Sherle, Grabb is buried there, but I think Dragtind probably wasn't. I had been told that Cliff had sold Dragtind something like 6 or 8 years ago. Sadly, it was discovered too late that Dragtind had a tumor involving the reproductive organs, and I think he was humanely euthanized. So if he is buried somewhere, unless they took him back to Cliff's to do it, it may be somewhere else. The other stallion may be Uredd. I had also heard he may have died from colic. Brian J.
Uredd
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to: On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:11:52 -0800 leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >This message is from: leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Do you know if Uredd died 9 years ago of colic? I'm sorry, Liz, I don't know either. Brian J.
Re: keeping water ice-free
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for that info Steve. Brian
the stallion Grabb
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My grandfather, Harold Jacobsen, liked to think big. He was a very independent person and was always doing things that went against "traditional" wisdom. Like learning to ski at the age of 50. Like starting to raise Norwegian Fjord Horses at the age of 59, never having owned a horse before. Like owning 38 Fjords at one point in the mid 1980's. Like selling Fjords to almost every state in the country, and Canada. In 1980 Harold decided he wanted to bring another stallion to Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch. We had imported the stallion Dragtind several years previously, and we realized we needed another stallion to breed with if we were going to keep any of Dragtind's daughters. He had learned about the stallion Grabb (the "a" is pronounced like "ahhh" when you go to the dentist - or like the sound of "sob" as in crying), and he decided that was the one he needed to bring home. At the time, Grabb was considered by many to be the best living Fjord stallion in Norway, and we didn't think at first that the Norwegian officials would allow him to leave. For two reasons though they finally agreed. First, Grabb had bred mares in Norway for quite some time, and he was not getting any younger at 19 years old. And second, the Norwegians were truly concerned about Fjord breeding in the US and knew the contribution Grabb could make in the quality of Fjords over here. So on August 13, 1980, Grabb set foot for the first time on American soil. At that time stallions only had to undergo a three-day quarantine, so it was not long afterwards that he arrived at our ranch in Carbondale, Colorado, high in the Rocky Mountains. My first thought upon seeing Grabb was, "What a horse!" Almost without fail, this was everyone's reaction upon seeing him for the first time. Grabb had a physique like I've never seen on a Fjord, before or since. He stood about 14.2 hands tall and, I'm estimating, weighed 1200 pounds. I wish I had a judges comment card on him, but I don't, so I'll comment from what I remember of him and from pictures. Grabb had very nice overall symmetry being well-balanced front and rear. His withers and top of his croup were level. Grabb's chest and neck were very impressive. His chest was very wide and very muscular. His neck was nicely arched and came high off his shoulders. His back was long, he was thick barreled, and very strong coupled. The rear quarters were strongly muscled with a slightly sloping croup. Grabb had a very masculine head with a proud carriage. Grabb's movements were classic Fjord for the time period he came from; High knee action and strongly driven from the rear end. Harold liked to say he "came on like gangbusters" when he was running toward you. My impression was that of a freight train bearing down on you; Lot's of noise, steam, and this massive body coming toward you. Probably part of the reason I thought of him as a freight train was that I was never sure if he would stop when he was barreling down the fence line toward me. I was fairly young at the time, and I never gave him the chance. I was in good company, though, as there were many people who jumped up on the gate when Grabb came charging toward us at what seemed like 90 miles per hour! Let's just say he was a fireball! Grabb's main job in Norway was breeding mares, and he took his job very seriously. We would hand breed, and when one would hold the mare at one end of the arena, Grabb would enter from the other. My older brother John would put the bit in Grabb's mouth, attach the long lines, set his feet, give the command to open the gate, and then "ski" 100 feet across the arena until Grabb reached the mare. While he was "wide open" when he arrived in Colorado, within two years he had settled down quite nicely was about average for a Fjord stallion. Some of my most interesting memories of Grabb involve breeding him. As anyone who owns a stallion knows, they are very spectacular as they prance and perform and show off for a mare, and so my grandfather liked to show Grabb off to visitors when such an event was taking place. My job was to hold the mare's tail out of the way and, as I had the best vantage point, to judge whether it was a successful breeding or not. While my grandfather was a very bold and forthright man, and was not embarrassed by anything, I was a painfully shy young teenage boy who blushed if a girl so much as looked at me. I still cringe as I can hear Harold's voice calling out to me from 30 feet away over the fence and expecting me to answer no matter who was watching - male or female. While I can talk of such things relatively easily now as a veterinarian, back then I lived in mortal fear of the inevitable question, "Is it in, Brian?" Grabb was considered a "matador" of the Fjord breed in Norway. This term was reserved for stallions of unusual quality who made a large impact on the breed. He had more registered, prizewinning sons and da
Re: Compost for water tank
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks, Larson, for that information about what your grandfather used to do. Do you remember whether it was just straight manure he used? Or did it have straw or shavings in with it? I believe that would make a difference as to how hot it got. Thanks, Brian
keeping water ice-free
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Has anyone ever experimented with surrounding a water tank with composting material to use the heat given off by the composting process to keep the water from freezing? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
the stallion Uredd
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Several people were interested in info on the stallion Uredd, son of Grabb. Uredd was born May 1, 1982 on our ranch in Colorado. When he was born he was so bold we named him Uredd, which means "unafraid" in Norwegian. Uredd remained on our ranch until he was three years old, at which time he was transported, along with 8 other colts (from 2 years to 4 years old) and the stallion Grabb, to Pecos, New Mexico, and the ranch of Cliff Baltzley who had purchased them. As I mentioned in a previous post, never was even a single colt gelded at our ranch in Colorado, and there were quite a few of them born; This is a dubious distinction to be sure. At the time, though, Fjord stallions of distinct bloodlines (sufficiently different than what was already in the US) were in very short supply and my grandfather Harold thought it was the best thing to do. The colts' names were Arne, Gunnar, King Haakon, Knut, Lyder, Magne, Uredd, Vidar, and Yngve. These colts represented five totally different bloodlines; In fact, three of them had had been imported in utero by Harold and were by the Norwegian stallions Eiker-Graen N1861, Ljosen N1848, and Dragfinn N1735. I believe Cliff had all but four of the colts gelded, including two of the imported ones, which horrified Harold. Uredd was one who made the cut, or should I say, didn't get cut. He was sired by Grabb N1651 1.pr - 1.avk.pr, and his dam was Gulldua N13969 2.pr. Gulldua means "golden dove", and she really was, having been rated a second prize at only 3 years old in Norway. Gulldua's parents were Felder N1707 1.pr (sire) and Gullborg N13173 2.pr. (dam). In New Mexico, Cliff Baltzley mated Uredd with another mare we had imported named Laila N13716. Laila's parents were Jordbu N1718 2.pr, and Sylvia N13388 2.pr., and Laila was a champion trotter in Norway before we brought her to the US. The resulting colt was named Lukas. (Laila was responsible for another good breeding stallion who is in the US. At the time she was imported, Laila was in foal to the famous Norwegian stallion Apollo, and the result was "Ring", Bill and Norma Coli's stallion in Massachusetts (see the Spring 99 Herald #50, page 41)). Lukas C-795 BXB-B-692-S was purchased from Cliff Baltzley by Bryon and Gatha O'Reilly of Alberta, Canada. The O'Reillys also purchased four Dragtind daughters from Cliff, and produced some very nice foals over the years with Lukas as the sire. Lukas is a short-coupled and sturdy stallion, and the foals by these mares were drafty as well, usually maturing in the range of 14.2 - 15.0 hands and weighing 1,200 - 1,300 pounds. We have owned three of these Fjords, and Harlan and Jane Sawyer who are friends and breeders in the Asheville, North Carolina area, have owned five. Without exception they have been attractive Fjords with friendly and warm personalities. Another one of these Fjords is the dam of the stallion Lower Forty Bodil who was just mentioned on the List and who is owned by the Monheims in Eagle River, Wisconsin (see the Spring 99 Herald #50, page 40). Lukas is apparently now owned by the folks at Leader Lane Fjords in Ontario, Canada, as they just mentioned on the List. Postscript - One of the other of those original 9 colts, Gunnar, who was Uredd's full brother, was gelded and now, years later, is owned by List member Jean Gayle. Another of the original 9 is the stallion Knut who is alive and well in Murietta, California and is owned by Henry (Jack) Johnson. As Amy Evers just mentioned, Knut is the sire of their beautiful grey stallion Bjorn-Knutson. I am not sure what became of Uredd after being at Cliff Baltzley's ranch in New Mexico. Anyone know? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
the stallion Dragtind
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dragtind (pronounced Drog'-tind) will be a name that's new to some of you. My grandfather, Harold Jacobsen, had started raising Fjords in 1973. By 1977 we had a small handful of mares who were mostly descended from the Fjords that were imported to the Broadmore Hotel in Colorado Springs in the 1950's. Given the small number of Fjords in the US at the time, it was difficult to find a stallion that was unrelated to these mares. So Harold and my older brother John headed to Norway to purchase a stallion with the help of John Hegdal, head of the Norwegian "Registry". They came home with a with a four-year-old stallion named Dragtind N1781 who had just been awarded third prize at the stallion show in Nordfjordeid. I believe he was ranked as second in quality of all the stallions of that age. (For those unfamiliar with the Norwegian system of judging, Fjords are not awarded a prize until they are at least 3 years old. At their first judging, if they are of sufficient quality, they are usually awarded a 3rd prize. An outstanding horse is sometimes awarded a 2nd prize. They are judged against the breed standard, not against the other horses there, so a number of them can get the same prize. They are ranked against each other though, and said to be "first in quality" and "second in quality" and so on.) Dragtind was sired by the stallion Ola Gik N1703 1.pr - 2. avk.pr. (The "1.pr" means he had been awarded first prize for himself, and the "2. avk. pr" means he had been given 2nd prize for the quality of his offspring.) Ola Gik was a grandson of Torbjorn N1417 1.pr, who was descended from Hakon Jarl N645. Dragtind's dam was Goma N13425 1.pr. Goma was a daughter of the excellent stallion Valebu N1569 1.pr - 1.avk.pr. Dragtind himself was never judged again for a higher prize, though I feel he was of high enough quality to have received one. At the time Dragtind was born (1973), Norway was beginning a shift in focus from the Fjord as primarily a draft animal to a horse more suited for a variety of disciplines. Dragtind was one of the first of these stallions, and according to a letter written to Harold from Sven Huseby, there were a number of breeders in Norway who were sad to see Dragtind go as they hoped he would be licensed when he was old enough and they would be able to breed their mares to him. I regret that I don't have exact measurements to share with you, but if memory serves, Dragtind was around 14 hands and weighed 1050-1100 pounds at ideal weight. He was a nicely balanced stallion with average muscling and bone size and very nice striping on front and rear legs. His withers were slightly higher than his hips and he had a nicely sloped shoulder. His conformation gave him a smoother gait with better reach than most Fjords at that time. I remember him having quite a bit of action with the front legs at the trot though, which was typical for some of the faster trotters. I will always regret that he was never really trained, shown or competed. He was a very sweet-natured stallion with a long forelock and a beautiful face. I hope Mike and Sue Davies don't mind the comparison, but to give you some idea what Dragtind looked like, he looked similar to their stallion Montano as he is shown in the Herald (on page 9 in the most recent issue). Dragtind was slightly shorter and just a little stockier than Montano appears in that picture, with a slightly more developed rear end. Dragtind was quite a gentleman with the ladies (mares). We had one mare in particular who would not let Grabb touch her, but who thought Dragtind was quite charming. (Grabb is the other stallion we imported. I'll describe him in a separate post). We had 14 foals born on the ranch in Colorado who were sired by Dragtind. There would have been more but Grabb arrived on the ranch in 1980, and Grabb got the lion's share of the breedings after that since he was new and was so good and so well-known. Despite Grabb's widespread reputation, to Dragtind he was just an unwelcome intruder. Usually the two were kept quite far apart and out of site of each other, but I remember one time they got together. If there are two stallions around, if one gets out, you can just about count on him letting the other one out too and them having a nice fight. We were able to get them separated quickly though before any real damage was done to either. Fortunately a stallion fight is just half fighting and half strutting, snorting, and screaming. A fight between two mares is actually much more dangerous unless the stallion fight is just allowed to go on and on. The two stallions must have vowed to continue the fight when they could, because they got together again several years later at Clif Balsley's ranch in New Mexico. This time the fight resulted in Grabb's death. (Years later a son of Grabb and son of Dragtind would continue the family fued - more on that later). Dragtin
Toby, other stallions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Nancy, On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:47:27 -0500 Nancy Hotovy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Amen Brian! You have such a great way of putting into words why we all >need to watch our breeding practices. Thanks for the comments Nancy. It helps to know whether other people think comments made were on the right track or not. I'd like to hear more about your stallion Toby along the same lines as the comments made about the other stallions. What do you think? What about some other stallion owners we have yet to hear from. I guess there may be some hesitation to contribute without an invitation since the perception might be that some would take that as precocious. So consider this an invitation. I'll mention some names of stallions that we've seen in the Herald often and whose owners are on this list. Others please chime in if I've left someone out. Julie Will - Erlend, Laura Wich - Hostar, Vivian Creigh - Marnix, Anne Appleby - Misha, Susan Giargiari - Hilmar, Bernardine Karns - Ivan, Ceacy Henderson - Konggard, Pat Wolfe - comments on former stallions? Anyone else? Even if you don't list offspring who've done this or that (though that would be nice), tell us about your stallions. Thanks! Brian Jacobsen
Re: best of the best of stallions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:40:53 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Hello Brian! >Welcome back, I hope all went well with your parents. Yes thank you; Mom and dad are doing well. Dad's five bypass surgery went much better this time than the first time 18 years ago. >I agree with you 100% about the evals. BUT, there is one slight concernhow objective >can evaluators be when looking at both sport and draft type? I know everyone will say >type is type, but is it possible the evaluator will subconsciously chose which one he/she >thinks is prettiest? I would hate to see us "breed out" the draft trait. I echo your sentiments Lynda. While I consider myself a champion for the importance of Evaluations, I am not so naive to think there will be no problems. When you hear comments to the effect of 'Due to this horse's body style, you will have to take him/her to an Evaluation in such-and-such part of the country to do well ', and, 'This horse should evaluate well because he/she is what everybody wants right now ", it sure makes you wonder. What happened to The Standard is the Standard is the Standard. ?? >Oh yes, and Brian, Mary the Shire is doing wonderfully well!. I remember from our telephone conversation that you rescued this sweet giant of a horse from a slaughterhouse death when it turns out there really was not much wrong with her (although it was reported she had numerous problems at the time). Thank you so much for being willing to give of your time and resources to help horses whose trust in their owners, the people they depended on to take care of them, has been betrayed. The Lord says He cares about the tiny little sparrow; You know He cares about Mary the Shire and the others. You have found a neat way to give back something to horses who give us so much. Thanks! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
best of the best of stallions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda, Your best of the best was an interesting thought. You wrote: >I believe someone brought up on the list the old Norse practice of stallion >fighting, else I read it through my studies, or possibly both are true. >Anyway, I would suppose, if we really wished to see the best of the best of >stallions, we would put them all together in a natural herd environment. I >have the feeling we would all be utterly amazed at the outcome. I have also wondered what the result would be of an "experiment" like this would be. I suspect, though, that our notion that "the best stallion would win" is highly romanticized and not very accurate. I have unfortunately seen several stallion fights (accidental get-togethers) and can say that age and experience at fighting or play-fighting (like young horses do) have as much or more to do with the way the fight goes than does natural ability and intelligence. And even in cases where natural ability alone wins out, would we want a Mike Tyson Fjord Stallion? To be the "ruling" stallion in a wild herd situation would mean that the concept of submitting would not be in that horse's vocabulary. To submit in those circumstances means defeat and most likely death. Don't I remember reading that when cowboys used to try to roundup bands of wild horses, they often had to shoot the herd stallions because they kept trying to attack the coyboys and their horses? If these stallions had been so exceptional when they were tamed, then they would have been the prize catch of the whole band. Since this was not often done, this tells me they probably were not able to be tamed and so the cowboys just did not want to mess with them. Though this would be some kind of tough animal, it would be nothing like the Fjords we love who are so loving and so willing to submit to our leadership. The reason I mention all this is to reemphasize the importance of --- Evaluations---. (Lynda, I know you are for evaluations, so this is not necessarily directed at you.) Please remember this: Natural selection results in tough and smart and often physically impressive, but not often willing to submit. Selection by necessity (i.e. cowboy needs a good horse, Arabian knight needs a mount that can survive the desert and travel long distances, Norwegian people needed a horse first to fight with (Vikings) and then to farm with) results in tough, smart, physically impressive, AND willing to submit. Selection by an evaluation process KEEPS the horses tough, smart, physically impressive, and willing to submit WHEN THE NECESSITY IS GONE. There are very few cowboys or Arabian knights that ride horses anymore, and the few Norwegian people that still farm mostly use tractors. No one really needs horses in the way they used to be needed. That means that with few or no exceptions, we own them as a matter of human fancy, just because we want to. Human fancy largely results in selection for physical impressiveness with very little thought for tough, smart, or willing to submit. The Quarter Horse stallion named "Impressive" is a perfect example of this; His offspring have a reputation for being hard to handle, they are not known as a group to be good at any of the "traditional" Quarter Horse uses (cutting cows, roping, racing), and they have a probability of having a serious genetic defect. So what good are they? They look darn good in the show ring. Hello!! Am I missing something here?! They take a good horse, and make it a good-for-nothing-horse. That makes sense right? In today's environment of breeding for profit and with only sporadic selection for use, the ONLY way we can keep Fjords tough AND smart AND physically impressive AND willing to submit is through Evaluations. When you see the first Fjord "Impressive", it is all downhill from there. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: computer woes
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Julie! Our e- mail address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brian has been in Colorado for the past week. Went to be near his mom and dad. His dad had by-pass surgery last Friday. Is also "helping" his grandma who flew in from Florida. The surgery went well and his dad is recovering well also. He should be back this week sometime. Sorry to hear of your computer woes.they are great conveniences but when they give you trouble they REALLY give you trouble.I think I'll have Brian make a back up list of our addresses as soon as he gets home..I am to " computer illiterate" to figure it out :o) TTFN barb J
Re: Fevers...Potomac
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Ingrid, I'm sure that was alarming to find Lilla in that condition. Hopefully, though, it will be nothing terribly serious because up to about 101.5 degrees can be normal for a horse. So 102 degrees was not terribly high. The fact that you put a sheet on her may have caused it to go up higher by the time the vet arrived. Potomac Horse Fever is usually accompanied by severe diarrhea, which you didn't mention, so hopefully it's not that. Wouldn't it be "nice" (considering the alternatives at least) if it just turned out to be a run-of-the-mill viral respiratory infection? We see many that start out exactly as you described Lilla. Even a horse that's been well vaccinated and hasn't been around "strange" horses can occasionally pick one up. Hope she continues to improve! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:56:08 -0500 Ingrid Ivic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >This message is from: Ingrid Ivic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Hello everyone... >My beautiful mare Lilla has not been herself lately. Came home >last >night, after visiting family all day, to find my girl standing with >her >head down, not eating or drinking, and with a fever of 102. >Yikes...have >not ever had to deal with a fever before and felt very badly for the >poor creature. Put a call in to the vet first of course and while >waiting for him, gave Lill 2 butes and put a sheet on her. Her temp >went >up a degree by the time he arrived and he had a serious look on his >face. Not sure if the serious look was due to the fact that his >favorite >baseball team was losing or this was a pretty bad situation. I >believe >it was a combination. >My wonderful "non-horsey" hubby held on to her little colt, I >held >Lill...and the vet did his thing. Tubed her for fluids, drew blood, >gave >tri-cyclamine (sp?) and banamine. All of this helped and this morning >she is starting to nibble on some hay again and drink water. Her temp >is >down to 100.5. Whew!...thank goodness. >We'll know more as to why she became ill from the results of the >blood test. Our vet's final thoughts on her condition last night was >that she may have Potomac Horse Fever. He'll be out once again today >to >give her another round of tri-cyclamine. >Has anyone ever experienced this in any of their horses before? >What >was the outcome and treatment? I did some research late last night on >the net to read more about it and found it can have up to a 30% >mortality rate, with complications of Laminitis. I assume this 30% >mortality rate is if the horse has not been vaccinated for the >disease? >None of my other creatures are ill and we've never had this happen >before, so it came as a complete surprise. We've always taken the >utmost >care of our horses (current vaccinations, on-schedule farrier care, >good >feed and hay, etc)...they are part of our family. >Any input from you would be appreciated...thanks! >Ingrid >...(Let's hope it's not Potomac and just a nasty virus) :o( > >
Re: Clippers and Weegies
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Meredith, Yes, that would have been Aagot's first time around clippers. Glad she didn't mind them. I'm sure a big part of it is that she trusts you so much. Brian
Fw: web site listing
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wondered if this message might interest some on the List. I don't know anything more about it than what you will read right here; Just passing along the information. Brian Jacobsen - Forwarded message -- From: Dick Beck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:46:13 -0700 Subject: web site listing Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello; First, if I have contacted you already I apologize. I am trying to promote my web site and am e-mailing many horse facilities and I'm afraid I might duplicate my efforts. This note is sent to you announing our publication of a new website called "Horse Motels International". Our site will be an on-line worldwide directory of horse motel owners who wish to make their horse facilities available to the traveling public. There is a sizeable network already of horse motel owners who advertise by other means; as far as we know our site will be the first comprehensive directory offered on the internet. If you would like to look at our site you can visit us at http://www.horsemotel.com We would be delighted if you would like to list your facility with us or, if you are traveling with horses, you would find our site useful. Our site is new to the web and we will, hopefully, be adding listings frequently. You can contact us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you for your attention. Dick Beck "Horse Motels International"
don't keep opinions to self
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Laurie, Please don't be afraid to continue sharing your thoughts and opinions. Please note that nobody that 'criticized' the "lighten up" post wanted you (or others) NOT to share opinions, some of us just hoped it could be done in a more friendly fashion. Remember also that first impressions are often wrong. I KNOW that Mr. Anderson's first impression of the List was wrong, and although I don't know him, I wouldn't be surprised if the first impression that some people formed about him was also wrong. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
lets pretend
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Gang! I have kind of a different idea! Let's pretend we're adults and can treat each other with respect and dignity. Let's pretend that when someone posts a not-so-tactful message to the List, that we can respond with grace instead of in a mean manner. Let's pretend that everyone has the same right to express their thoughts, opinions, and feelings without being made to feel unwelcome. While we're at it, why don't we pretend that we are ambassadors for the Fjord breed and that the breed is going to be judged not only on it's own merits, but also by the conduct of each and every owner. While a comment like "lighten up" may be no big deal to some, to others it may be taken as quite a slap in the face. Especially when the person who was told to "lighten up" was in the right, even though he was not very tactful about it. What would you think if that person was a strong candidate for being an Evaluator for the Fjord breed? What would you also think if he now does not want anything to do with Fjord owners? Well, I'm taking quite a bit of liberty there. I don't even know the person, and I doubt they are a candidate for being an Evaluator, but do you get my point? They may have had something worthwhile to contribute. How many non-Fjord-owners do you suppose have joined this list quietly, lurked for a while, and decided Fjord owners were an inhospitable bunch and left just as quietly? Quite honestly, I'm embarrassed for the way that fellow was treated. Please let's try to do better. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
melanomas vs. sarcoids
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brenda, Thanks for posting that info about The Horse (www.thehorse.com). It's a very good horse publication and I would recommend it for everyone on the List. Also, you got me off the hook for explaining the difference between sarcoids and melanomas : ) I just wanted to clarify that there is a difference between the two of them; Some of the posts sounded like people were thinking they were the same thing. I'd be willing to bet that most of the "growths" that people mentioned were sarcoids, not melanomas. Remember that Fjords have dark skin, and if you call your vet and tell him your horse has a dark-colored growth, his first thought will be melanoma because you said "dark colored". Most likely, though, it's just a growth involving or covered by your Fjords normally dark colored skin. Since melanomas are fairly rare, and most Fjords aren't grey, most of these are probably going to end up being sarcoids. And sarcoids are definitely the better thing of the two to have, although they can be frustrating to get rid of. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
The final word on Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Fjord List Members, I know I'm not the final word on Evaluations, but I knew that would get everyone's attention. Something has been brought to my attention that I bet a number of you did not fully realize either. Or at least had not thought through the full implications. We all know the Evaluation Committee has worked long and hard on the proposals for Evaluations in the U.S. Do you realize though that after all that work, the Committee basically has no power to act upon their decisions? They don't. All they can do is make their recommendations to the Board and wait for an answer. There are nine BOD members, and they are likely to have just as diverse opinions about Evaluations as have been expressed here on the list. That makes it unlikely that they will just accept the Evaluation Committee's proposal. Although we do expect BOD members to use their experience and wisdom to make decisions, we also still have the right and obligation to make our feelings known on issues affecting us and our horses. Stick with me here because I'm working up to the point. Do you realize that despite all the talk back and forth about Evaluations, this time and the last time they were discussed on the list this Spring, once the talk dies down nothing has changed? For those who were not on the List in the Spring, I'll tell you that the discussions about Evaluations back then were very much the same as what we have just gone through. Most people are for Evaluations; Some are against. Some people want European evaluators; Some want American. Many just want SOMETHING to happen no matter what it is. But lest you think we've accomplished something, we haven't. Oh sure, a number of us are fired up right now about having an Evaluation, but soon the demands of everyday life will bring our thoughts back to more immediate and pressing things, and very few of the Evaluations will happen. Yes, it may be true that some people have been swayed in one direction or another by arguments that have been presented. And it's possible that we collectively have thought of something that the Evaluation committee didn't. (I doubt it, though, as they have been over and over and over this thing.) But I repeat, as of now, we have not accomplished one single thing! UNLESS, and it's a big unless, YOU contact a Board member and tell them how you feel! If you do not contact a Board member and tell him or her what you would like to see happen in regards to Evaluations, then any comments you made on the List you may as well have just told to your dog. Or your horse. Or your doormat for that matter. Because it doesn't matter! I challenge you to ask someone on the Board what the majority of the membership wants in regards to Evaluations. If they start to tell you what they THINK we members want, stop them politely and ask them what they have been TOLD by the members that the members want. I'll bet you my false teeth they don't really know BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T TOLD THEM. When I was in Veterinary School, I learned a lesson applicable to this situation that I'll never forget. We were having a Nutrition class that was just plain pitiful. It was poorly organized, poorly presented, and for the most part was not practical information. I like to try to make a change for the better when I can, as I hope I'm doing right now, so I organized a petition to the Dean to let him know how terribly our Nutrition class was going. Almost every student in the class signed it. On the day I was ready to bring it to him, we had a class meeting and the class president told us the Dean had already heard about our petition. The Dean said he didn't care to read any petition. He wanted us to know we didn't need a petition. In fact, he just wanted us to come and talk to him, face to face as individuals. I was stunned and embarrassed. In all honesty, I had summarily dismissed the thought of going to talk to the Dean, because I thought "What is one voice going to matter to 'the powers that be' ? He won't care about what just one person thinks." The truth is, elected officials (and our BOD members) do care what one person thinks. One Congressman admitted that as few as two hundred calls will sometimes change his vote on an issue. Two hundred calls out of a consituency of tens of thousands of people!! If you think about it, all our discussion on this list has been our "petition" which we've been hoping that Mike May or Julie Will will take to the BOD for us. Yes, Mike and Julie are very willing to do that, but how much impact is that really going to have? Wouldn't it be much better if we each called a BOD member? To further illustrate my point, what if one person called you tomorrow morning and told you that, although they didn't want to embarrass you yesterday, they thought they had seen a hole in the crotch of the pants you were wearing. What would you do? Well since you just got to work and
thanks Mike
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Mike May, Mike, I thought about sending this privately, but decided it was appropriate to send it over the List. I just wanted to thank you for your seemingly tireless dedication to replying to questions involving the Registry and Board of Directors, even though as you say you are not an official representative of the BOD. If you got paid for everything people thought you were responsible for doing, you'd be a rich man! The Fjord breed has been enriched by your willingness to help in many different capacities. Thanks! Brian J.
thin soles, x-rays @ evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, I would be interested to know if Dave thinks the Fjords actually have a thinner sole, or is it that they just don't have as much chalky, extra sole as many other kinds of horses do. To further clarify, often when I clean out a horse's foot to look for an abscess, there is some excess sole that needs to be cleaned out to get down to good hard sole. I purposely said cleaned out, not pared out, because the "stuff" I am talking about can actually be removed with a hoof pick or something similar. You have to work at it, but it can be removed that way. Yes it is quicker and easier with a hoof knife, but I make the distinction because I feel that if someone is paring away at good hard sole that they need a KNIFE to remove, they may be taking too much. Our Fjords, whether it is due to diet or our environment here or their naturally strong feet, have almost no extra sole. So what I am wondering is, was the farrier that Elaine mentioned just of the mindset that part of a trim is to take off the "usual" amount of sole, no matter what the bottom of the foot looked like? And that this resulted in his taking too much from Fjords who didn't have the "extra" unneccessary stuff that some other horses commonly have? Steve White and Dave McWethy, any comments? Others that trim feet? I have to laugh at myself sometimes. I find myself bristling just a little when someone says something about Fjords that could be taken as a detriment. Elaine, when you mentioned that it appeared your Fjords had thin soles based on radiographs, my first reaction was, "No way! When Fjords have such a strong foot?" After I stopped being defensive about it though, I started wondering if there might be any truth to it. I have only had one occasion to radiograph the feet of Fjord so far, and those soles were of what I would call normal thickness. I have searched for abscesses several times in mine and have to admit I didn't think the soles were thin at those times. I'm curious Elaine, how many Fjords were you referring to that you have had radiographed? Regarding Karen's question about radiographing lower legs routinely at Evaluations, although I'm sure that something would turn up from time to time, in general I would hope that our (everyone's) Fjords are sound enough that the cost to benefit ratio would not make it worthwhile. Two reasons occur to me as to why it actually may not be a good idea. First, most things that would show up would be as a result of injury or being used rather than a genetic problem. True, some things do happen as a result of conformation, but the conformation can be evaluated without x-rays. I would fear that a horse with a problem that showed up might be blacklisted, even if there was no genetic component to the problem. And second, sometimes abnormalities show up on radiographs when there actually isn't anything wrong with the horse. Navicular lesions (abnormalities in the navicular bone) are good examples of this. Studies have shown that if you were to just go pick a bunch of horses out of people's pastures, some of them would have abnormalities in their navicular bones even though they had never been sore a day in their lives. And these horses don't necessarily go on to develop navicular disease either. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
shoeing and abscess
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Susan, In reply to your question, "Could shoeing bring an abcess to a head or were my experiences just coincidences???", shoeing usually would have no effect on an abscess that was already there unless the farrier just happened to open one up as he was paring away at the sole. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Driving vacation & NFHR publications
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ursula, We would pay that amount of money for that type of information. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
hosting only part of an Evaluation
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For those who have written in saying "don't forget about the performance part of Evaluations being important", I agree. Since ours is a breed whose value comes largely from the fact that they can do a little bit of everything, the performance part of an Eval is every bit as important than the conformation part. As Julie W. noted though, at least it's a start. Conformation is something that every Fjord can be judged at, regardless of training or age or owner ability. And conformation is important too. If the conformation isn't there, there are some things the horse is just not going to be able to do well. Also, to address the valid worry that having conformation-only evaluations may lead us down the path resulting in very eyecatching but not very functional horses, my belief is that with the breed standard on paper that the evaluators are supposed to stick to, it won't happen. Good examples were given of the Quarter Horse breed, etc., but if you think about it, they aren't sticking to a written breed standard. If they were, do you think they would allow these huge horses with tiny feet? These muscle bound hulks that probably can't run a quarter mile? That doesn't make any sense. They aren't sticking to a conformational standard. If anything, they have a standard of sensationalism - how sensational the horse looks. It will be up to us as Fjord owners to keep an eye on the evaluators to see that they are sticking to the standard. If they are not, we need to alert the BOD, and the BOD needs to take them aside and say, "Hey, I think you are straying a little bit. Let's get back in line with the standard." And if they don't, they don't have to be used any more. That may sound a little funny at first, the general membership keeping an eye on the evaluators, the "experts", but history has proven that a system of checks and balances works better than a dictatorship. The Paint and Quarter Horse judges largely have a dictatorship; What they say goes. With our system of a standard, and if we have a committed membership, our horses will be fine. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the risk of wearing out my welcome on the List, I'm replying to Joe and Denise Galbraith's message about evaluations posted today (the 13 th). >I have read all of your comments on he subject of Evaluations. It sounds like a neat >thing to do if one has the desire not to mention the money to participate. If a person is a breeder, there is a very real possibility of getting that money back. There are people out there, in all areas of the country, who are looking for something that stands out. That's why they are attracted to Fjords in the first place. And some of them are willing to pay more for what they perceive as higher quality. Again, that's why they were attracted to Fjords in the first place. True, not everyone will pay the $250 more you'll charge to cover your costs for the increased expense, but some will. And that may not be an expense you have every year either; You might just do your breeding stock to start with. >In reality we all know that these things tend to be very political. Well knowns seem to >be favored over some [n]ot so well knownWhat makes a judges opinion so perfect? >I have been to countless draft events and many horse shows and I see and hear how >unfair the judge was. Judges are human and many winners know what the judge is >looking for and it's not always necessarily the best horse. This is the best argument FOR evaluations that I have ever heard! In a SHOW, those things you mentioned can and do happen. That is the key behind EVALUATIONS - to minimize those very things. In a SHOW, the judge is the highest authority, and he/she calls 'em as he sees 'em, or calls 'em as he wants to see 'em. You can't argue because you have nothing to stand on; It's all one person's opinion. In an EVAL, the Breed Standard is the highest authority, and the judge calls them in relation to that standard. If an evaluator is trying to advance his/her own agenda, they can be called on the carpet because Fjord owners have something in black and white to stand on in their defense. Am I ignorant enough to think evaluations are perfect and there is no potential for abuse? No. But nothing's perfect, and there is potential for abuse in any program. This is a type of system that has worked well for many years in other places. >In a perfect Fjord world I think these evaluations would help us to "weed out breeding >stock that didn't quite measure up, In reality isn't that what we do already? We select >the best mares available and breed to the best stallion , knowing that we are using our >own evaluations. No, actually, that is not what we do at all. We start out with a filly or two, or a mare or two. Most likely the fillies or mares we bought were pretty good, but the main reasons we bought them were it was something we could afford and they were close enough to go look at easily. Some of us may have purchased horses from all the way across the country, but that's the minority. If we are just mare owners with no stallion, we are much more likely to breed to a stallion within driving distance than we are to do AI with what would be the best stallion for that mare. Yes, some AI is done, but again, it is the minority. If we go in for buying our own colt or stallion, we do try to be pretty selective, but again, geography and price are most often the main determining factors. We buy the best colt we can afford that's within a day's drive. Then, after we have our own mares and we have bought our stallion, what are the chances that we are going to pay someone else to breed to their stallion? Not likely. Even if we get another mare that maybe should be bred to a stallion that would compliment her better than ours does? Not likely. And when you say, "knowing we are using our own evaluations", we need to remember that we cannot be objective enough to do the best job. It is easy for a horse's good points to outweigh the bad in our minds, even if the bad points are bad enough that maybe the horse shouldn't be bred. Especially if you paid good money for that horse. Also, don't overrate "our own evaluations". The saying that "you can't improve it if you can't measure it" is very true in regards to horses, and I'll be shocked if even 1% of Fjord owners actually "measure" their horses' good and bad qualities and performance abilities like is done at an "official" evaluation. >I suggest you have confidence in your own abilities. I do too, but know very well your limitations. You are suggesting that most people are able to tell whether a horse is good or not. Joe and Denise, you have probably been around horses a while and can pretty much tell whether a horse is good or not. But the plain fact is that MOST people CANNOT tell. There are not enough hours in the day for me to tell you all the times I have talked with people who thought they were getting a good a horse and did not (I'm talking all breeds here; Not necessarily Fjords)
Why evaluations?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Misha and Michael, I don't think you have to worry about anything being crammed down your throat. With the small number of Fjords we have on this continent right now, it would be a logistical nightmare to try to require everyone's Fjord to be evaluated. The Registry doesn't even have the funds to do it even if they wanted. And I think it's pretty safe to say that enough of the membership would revolt if it were tried. Add to that the fact that the Board of Directors DOESN'T want it to be mandatory. So I hope you can see that there is nothing to worry about along those lines. Evaluations are simply a tool for two main purposes: (1) for a person (breeders especially) to know they are staying consistent with breed type in their Fjords, and (2) for someone, breeder or not, to gain recognition for having excellent horses in terms of conformation or performance or both. You both may have a good enough eye to tell quality Fjords, but not everyone does. Or, at least, not everyone has the experience. I have heard many people say they think they have a good Fjord, but would like "someone who knows" to look at him/her and see what they think. Also, almost nobody can avoid some degree of "barn blindness", and even if they can, almost nobody is willing not to sell the occasional but unavoidable horses that aren't quite up to par. Also, some people in the market for a Fjord are of the mentality that they want the best, so they will search out Fjords that have distinguished themselves at shows or evaluations. This doesn't meant that someone that doesn't have their horses evaluated does not have good horses, it just means they haven't gone to the trouble to distinguish themselves in that way. If someone wants to go to whatever lengths they can to distinguish their horses, they should have that opportunity. This last part is my personal opinion, so anyone is welcome to disagree. Evaluations are the only hope of keeping the Fjord breed in North America the EXCELLENT breed it is. You can look at any other breed of any type of animal in this country that is raised by people and see the effect of having some kind of standard to adhere to. Take dairy cows; In general, farmers have the goal of raising cows that will stay sound, breed easily and produce lots of milk so they can make a profit. As a result, there are many good dairy cows out there. Look at beef cows; Although there are more breeds of beef cows and more hobby farmers, in general the goal is producing a healthy animal that will put weight on quickly and make good eating. And they have done a pretty good job. While we all have our own opinions about animal rights issues and whether we eat animal products or not, you can't argue that the producers have been largely successful at reaching the goals. Now let's look at some animals for whom goals (at least 'official' goals) have not been set. How about horses; Owners of Quarter Horses used to largely have a standard which they bred toward. They needed a good ranch horse that was sensible and could work all day long, handle cows, and stay sound. When the breed got wildly popular, however, and people had one just to have one, or tried to make money raising them, they forgot all about standards. Now they are just bred according to the whim of the day. Are Quarter Horses, as a breed, as good as they used to be? In my opinion, no. IMPORTANT DISTINCTION - Are there still good QH's around - YES. But is the breed, in general, as good as it used to be - NO. How about Morgans? Ditto. How about Arabians? Ditto. I repeat, Are there still good [fill in the blank] around? YES. But are these breeds, in general, as good as they used to be? NO. So now we come to Fjords. Here's what's eventually going to happen if we don't maintain standards (Evaluations). At one of the shows, several of the horses in several of the classes are just a little different than "traditional" breed type, and because the judges feel they are the best horses in their particular classes, they win. Shortly, people start seeing in the Herald that the horses that won are just a little different than Fjords used to be. Some people, new to Fjords and not knowing any better, will think that's the way Fjords are supposed to look. Others, being very competetive and wanting to win at the shows will start breeding toward that look since that is what won last time. So the Fjords start to change a little bit. It's almost imperceptible as it's happening. And it doesn't happen overnight. But slowly, things will start to change. Will there still be good Fjords around? Oh yes, lots. But will the breed be as good as it used to be? No. Do you think it's just luck that Fjords, in general, are the healthiest, soundest, friendliest, strongest, hardest working horses with the best minds of any horse around? No, it's no accident. It's due to years and years of Evaluations in Europe and st
Re: evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:59:57 -0400 Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Jan, there are a growing number of Fjord owners in Virginia. Why don't you see if you >(collectively) could host at least a conformation evaluation in your state? I'm sure Brian >would support it. Right Brian??? I will definitely support/ help put on/ participate in an evaluation in Virginia. Since you mentioned it though, I'm going to be a little selfish and tell you what I would really like best; A conformation evaluation here on our farm in North Carolina. If it were financially feasible, Barb and I would love to have every single one of our 18 Fjords evaluated for conformation. Since Jane and Harlan Sawyer are also here in NC with 13 Fjords, assuming they would want to participate, we might try to work out the following: Pay the evaluators for two days work which would include a conformation evaluation (open to everyone) here in Salisbury, then one at the Sawyer's in Asheville (also open to anyone else), and then swinging up to Virginia for another one or two conformation evaluations. Perhaps the Stifels would want one; If so, that would be eastern VA. We would have to pay for/ provide means of travel for the evaluators, and it would be two busy days, but I would think it's workable. Evaluating only for conformation should be much quicker and easier than including the performance parts. How about it - who within driving distance of Charlotte or Asheville, NC, or somewhere in the state of Virginia (that's real helpful isn't it), would be interested in a conformation only evaluation in 2000? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: size of Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:40:41 -0400 "Dave McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >It's the other way around. The bigger animal has less surface area >proportionally. > Sorry list. Got that one backwards. You can throw that proof out the window. Thanks to Dave and Steve for chiming in on that one. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Question for Brian J: size/height potential
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:25:09 -0800 Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >I have a question for Brian J: how much does early nutrition affect the ultimate height in a FJord? . What I am asking, is there an increase in size/ height in North America due to better nutrition perhaps, rather than selecting for taller fjords?> Jean, I have wondered the same thing. I really think the answer is some of both. The conventional wisdom when I went through vet school was that better nutrition does not change mature size. Except for cases of severe deprivation, a horse is going to reach the size he/she was genetically programmed to reach. Good nutrition can speed it up. Poor nutrition can slow it down. But eventually the pre-programmed size will be reached. Prolonged starvation is an exception to this as it can permanently stunt bone growth. I will say, however, I have wondered at times if this conventional wisdom is always true. I hear enough examples like you gave about Bjorken, Jean, of horses getting tall, that it makes me wonder. Similarly, the Quarter Horses and Paints that we see around here that are pushed so hard for the show ring are getting absolutely huge before they are even two years old! Are we finally learning how to let them reach their full genetic potential as Dr. White mentioned? Concerning the effects of better nutrition over a period of years, this does seem to change mature size of a breed of animals. Or take people for example. The average height in the US is quite a few inches taller than it was just 100 years ago. Although I don't know that it has ever been proven, the best explanation out there is a more widely available and better-balanced diet. Is our nutrition here better than Norway though? I'm sure we have more feeds and hays to choose from. But that doesn't necessarily mean the nutrition in the US is better. We used to live at 6200 feet in the mountains of Colorado, and I have rarely seen better hay than the high altitude hay that was grown there. I am willing to bet they can grow some pretty darn nice hay in the mountains of Norway. Was it Anneli that told us that many people in Sweden and other parts of Europe make and feed haylage, which is even higher in protein and energy than dry hay? Also, they have oats and corn just like we do, and I'm sure there are commercial horse feeds to choose from which are probably just as good as ours. I guess it is probably safe to say that most Fjords' feeds in the US today are more balanced than what most Fjords' diets USED TO BE in Norway. I feel safe saying that because most horses' diets in the US today are better balanced than they used to be in the US also. So perhaps there has been a gradual change over the years due to an improvement in diet. Finally, to me, there is no question that some people/breeders in North America have made a concious effort to increase the size of Fjords. And that change can be made fairly quickly really, over just a few generations with selective breeding. I believe there are several reasons that they generally do not have the larger Fjords in Norway like we have in the US. First, they've already been there and done that, and they didn't like the results. Granted, it was by adding Dolehest blood, so it was changing a little more than just size. But as Steve McIlree straightened me out on, there used to be a lot of Dole Horse blood in Fjords, and the result was a bigger Fjord. The Norwegians purposely bred them back down to what we think of as more the traditional size, which was around 14 hands. Secondly, there is a certain size of animal that best fits a certain environment. There are many factors that play into this, among them availability of food, relative amount of heat loss due to body size, ability to handle difficult terrain, etc. The traditional size of the Fjord was what best fit their environment. Even if they can grow good hay in Norway, the amount they can grow is limited (short growing season, mountainous terrain), so they probably had just enough hay (or haylage) to feed the cows and relatively small horses, not some big draft horses. Also, in a cold climate like much of Norway has, conserving heat is important. A bigger animal has more surface area per unit mass than a smaller animal does, and loses heat easier when it's cold. Finally, smaller animals are, in general, more nimble on difficult terrain than larger ones. This is why elephants are plains dwellers and don't usually vacation in the mountains. All of this means that the more traditional sized Fjords just did better, all things considered, than the larger ones. We here in this country, though, are not necessarily worried about what size is best suited for our area. Many of us are looking for a Fjord with certain characteristics. We've heard it here on the List in the last few days; Some want a larger Fjord because they think they will feel
Re[2]: Brynar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks to Julie and the Jensens for the information about Brynar! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
red duns' mane stripe
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Anneli, Thanks for the info about the red dun stallions in Sweden. It's nice to see that they are appreciated. Out of 17 Fjords we have 1grey and 3 red dun. One of the red duns has an obvious red stripe in the mane, one has a stripe that's less obvious but can be seen fairly easily when the mane is freshly trimmed, and one has a very faint stripe that's difficult to see even when freshly trimmed. Visitors often think the red duns are three of the most beautiful we've got. Sincerely, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re[2]: Natural breeding versus artificial insemination
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding plastic or glass syringes for artificial insemination, both glass and plastic are considered OK. Lori was also correct when she said rubber technically should not be used. I will say, though, that I have seen veterinarians use plastic syringes with rubber in them, and they can have just as good results as others. The rubber only touches a very small percentage of the billions of sperm in the syringe, leaving still plenty to fertilize the egg. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Njal, the only pure stallion
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, You may be right that Njal was the only pure Fjord stallion around due to the infusion of Dolehest blood. But I was under the impression that adding the Dole blood was more of a small scale experiment than a widespread change in breeding. It would be hard for me to believe that the Norwegian people would come so close to allowing the beautiful, distinct Fjord to be lost by blending it into another breed. I am curious to know if your impression is correct rather than mine about how widespread the Dole influence was? Thanks, Brian On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:11:27 -0500 Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Brian-- > >Wednesday, August 04, 1999, you wrote: > >> This leads a person to believe that Njal was the only Fjord stallion >> around at that point in time... In actuality, he was only one of the >> Fjord stallions Norway had licensed to breed at that time. > > As I understand it he was the only *pure* Fjord stallion that could > be located after massive infusion of Døle blood into the breed. If > you accept the scenario of Njaal and ten other stallions, it means > that none of our present Fjords are without some Døle background. > >-- >Steve McIlree & Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- >Omaha, Nebraska, USA > Men are better when riding, more just and more understanding, and >more > alert and more at ease... --Edward Plantagenet(1373-1413) > >
Re: breeding 3 yr old fillies
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Barbara Lynn Lapp asked, in terms of breeding three year old fillies, and comparing that to breeding cows even younger, "are cows really that different from horses in this respect? Or is it only a difference in human opinion?" Barbara, you have asked a very astute question. The difference is mostly in human opinion. Cows and horses mature very similarly, and to be very frank, with proper nutrition, it would make no difference in most horses physically if they were bred at two or bred at three. The three biggest reasons are these: 1) At two, the majority of the horse's growing is already done. Now somebody always says, "Wait a minute! My horse grew until he was six!" Well, that's probably true, but how many inches did he grow from two years old to six years old? Probably just a couple, or 3 or 4 at the most. So what is 3 or 4 inches compared to 56 inches which is the height of a 14-hand horse? It's only 5-7%. So again, MOST of the horse's growing is done at the age of two. Reason 2) A mare in foal does not need an increase in feed until she reaches about nine months of pregnancy. That means that a filly bred at two years old is really almost three before that fetus would start to put high demands on her nutritionally. Reason 3) A mare will almost never grow a foal that's too big for her to deliver. A very small mare has a very small foal. True, many of us have helped pull a foal, but honestly that's more our impatience than it is the mare really needing our help. So am I saying we should all start breeding our fillies at the tender age of two? No. We haven't yet discussed mental maturity or mothering ability, both of which improve as fillies grow older . I firmly believe that two year old fillies still need time to be young horses themselves before they have to start having to worry about raising one. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
red duns
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The reason I ask whether mare owners are willing to breed to a good red dun stallion is that many people that come to see the Fjords, or that already own Fjords, really like that nice black stripe in the mane and tail. They may think the red duns look OK, but the browns and greys are their favorites. Another reason I asked is that a red dun stallion owner in this country that used to advertise in the Herald told me that she never had an inquiry from an "outside" mare owner about breeding to the red dun. Now I know there may have been reasons other than color, but it makes one wonder. Does anyone know if the stallion Brynar in Norway is/was red dun? He is a nice-looking stallion and he looks like he could be from a picture (black & white) that I have seen. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Part II, can we avoid line breeding?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 Steve McIlree also wrote: >In addition, the limited number of horses brought to this country must further limit >access to some lines available in Europe. I'm not advocating line-breeding, simply >pointing out that our available stock is the product of line-breeding or inbreeding. >I suppose that might be a good argument for strict out-crossing of lines. As I showed in Part I, although I believe there was little or no inbreeding or line breeding despite the fact that Njal is in every Fjord's background, I thoroughly agree that strict outcrossing is good for the breed. And although there is no doubt that there was some inbreeding and linebreeding of Fjords in the early days in Canada and the US, I thought it would interest everyone to know what two very forward-thinking individuals in particular did back then to reduce or eliminate that as much as possible. Their efforts helped keep the Norwegian Fjords in this country the smart, beautiful, and vigorous animals that we know and love today. This will also reveal the mystery-shrouded reason that the NFHR was ever started. My grandfather was one of the men, so I'll be bragging just a little bit. He also did something, though, that some of you will disagree with, so I'm telling the good as well as the (possible) bad. Gene Bauer was the other man. By the late 70's I believe it was, Gene was not allowing any inbred or I believe even what he considered line bred horses to be registered in his registry, The Norwegian Fjord Horse Association of North America (NFHANA). He also would not register any Fjords that could not be traced directly back to Norway. The second Fjord that my grandfather Harold purchased could not be traced back. In fact, she is Sonja, who is currently the oldest NFHR registered horse. Sonja's dam was Oslo Miss, whose papers were lost in a fire, and it's never been able to be determined who her parents were. Sonja had had a few offspring whom Harold had sold, and Gene would not allow these owners to register their horses either. Harold and Gene could both be very hard-headed about certain things, and they butted heads big time over this. I was very young at the time, and was not involved with things such as registering, but I believe this is what caused Harold to start, along with a few other men, another registry, the NFHR. Harold knew Sonja was a purebred Fjord, and it was very likely that her dam was imported as was her sire, but it could not be proven. Gene, I believe, was doing his best to ensure that no horses that possibly could have been crossbred or inbred would be given any official recognition. In Gene's efforts to promote outcrossing, he even went so far as to draw a map of the US and Canada and indicate where stallions of certain bloodlines were, so mare owners could choose unrelated stallions. Harold chose to approach the issue in a different manner, namely importing new blood. He imported 19 Fjords over the years, 17 of which were three and four-year-old mares, all third prize or better, and all in foal to different Norwegian approved stallions. He also imported the third-prize stallion Dragtind, and the famous stallion Grabb who had first prize himself and first prize for the quality of his offspring. Now here's the other thing Harold did to ensure diversity of bloodlines, and this is going to be the controversial part. He never gelded a single colt! If it arrived on our farm with two testicles, it left with two testicles! (Let's all pause now while several of the readers have their fit of apoplexy) : ) Yep, I'm serious. The sound of an emasculator was never heard on our ranch in Colorado from 1974 to 1990. Harold's strategy was to get the genetic diversity out there ASAP to stop the inbreeding and linebreeding that was going on, and the quality could be improved as time went on by further importations. Not to say the quality of those horses wasn't good; It was. It's just that a prizewinning pedigree doesn't mean that every colt should be a breeding stallion. So some would argue that some of those colts shouldn't have been breeding. The alternative, though, was that there would be alot of inbred Fjords around to start with, and then as more people imported, the inbreeding would try to be combatted by new imported quality. The problem with that is, as I wrote in a recent post, inbreeding results in horses of diminished size, vitality, mental capacity, and immune status, along with musculoskeletal defects, and those things are very hard to combat. If, on the other hand, the vitality, etc. is in place, the quality can still be improved on. So I still believe that Harold chose the best way he could have to help protect the future of the breed in this country. I do want to reassure folks that now that there are plenty of stallions around, we are doing our share of gelding. Since 1994, the only colt that has left here ungeld
Part I, can we avoid line breeding?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 Steve McIlree wrote: >Given the limited gene pool of Fjords, isn't strict avoidance of line-breeding impossible? Steve, I think I understand what you're getting at, but yes, actually it's very possible to avoid. I guess it depends on what definition you use for line breeding. Janice Ashpole had a very good article in one of the early Heralds (sorry, can't tell you which one; saved the article but did not write which Herald it came from) and from her research she reported the following definitions: inbreeding - the breeding of closely related animals. line breeding - a form of inbreeding which attempts to keep a high relationship with one common ancestor. outbreeding - mating of individuals that have no common ancestor for at least four generations. So if outbreeding means no related horses within four generations, line breeding would mean that in a horse's pedigree, one (or more) ancestor's names would show up at least twice in the last four generations. And yes, this is easy to avoid today. But you also wrote, "If indeed all living Fjords trace to Njaal 166 fewer than 100 years ago there comes a point where all pedigrees must cross." This is true, meaning that every Fjord Horse alive today is related, because, if you go back far enough, the stallion Njal 166 will be in all pedigrees. However, this is deceiving. I realize that this information is found in the Norwegian and Dutch books about Fjords, but it gives an impression that is incorrect. This leads a person to believe that Njal was the only Fjord stallion around at that point in time. It may even lead some people to think there was an Adam-and-Eve kind of deal, that all Fjords are descended from just Njal and one mare. In actuality, he was only one of the Fjord stallions Norway had licensed to breed at that time. I'm just guessing; Let's say it was ten. And there were thousands of Fjord mares in Norway at that time Njal was born, none of which had him in their pedigree of course. So ten stallions (for example) and thousands of mares is a similar amount of genetic variation as Norway has always had.But then, in the following years, and for what reason I've never heard, the MALE descendants from all the other stallions were slowly phased out. Remember though, that the FEMALE offspring of these other stallions were still going strong. So this whole thing likely happened with no more linebreeding than Norway has ever practiced. Anotherwards, Njal was probably bred to several hundred different mares in his lifetime. Njal had three sons whose lines have endured, and these three could easily have been bred to mares that were not related to Njal. And keep in mind that even on down the road while Njal's sons and grandsons etc. were breeding, other stallions were breeding at the same time, even if their lines later died out. So this means other mares were being produced that as yet were still unrelated to Njal. So although Njal might be somewhere in the pedigree of every Fjord horse alive today, it's not quite like it sounds at first. To calculate what contribution Njal has to today's Fjords, let's assume that a new generation begins every five years. Anotherwards, some mares are bred at three, some may not be bred until six, but let's say the average is bred at four years old with the baby coming when the mare is five. Njal was born in 1891, and probably started breeding when he was three, so since 1894 there have been 21 generations of Fjords. The sire and dam each contribute 50% of the genetic material to the horse in question, and the grandparents each contribute 25% and so on, so when you get back 21 generations it means that Njal is contributing just 0.5% out of the 100% that makes up each horse alive today. So breeding two Fjords today that have so little of Njal in them is no threat whatsoever. You wrote something else in your original message, Steve, that I'd like to comment on. Since this is long, I'll start a new message. See "Part II, can we avoid line breeding?" Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
line breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Line breeding is generally not desireable because it eventually can result in decreased hardiness or vitality of a breed, and it can tend to magnify undesireable genetic characteristics. The hardiness or vigor can be bred right out of animals with repeated line breeding or especially inbreeding. I don't believe we (scientists, geneticists, etc) know yet why this occurs; We just know it does. Conversely, we have all heard of "hybrid vigor", the extra hardiness that results from a cross between different breeds. I believe Fjords have a higher innate level of hardiness or vigor than many other breeds, but that this could be lost if Fjords were started to be linebred to a large degree. Linebreeding can also magnify unwanted to genetic characteristics, even without us knowing it's happening. Let's say, for example, that there was a very good stallion who was not parrot-mouthed himself, but in his genes had the tendency toward that problem. Someone decides to linebreed him, meaning he is bred to some of his own granddaughters (one way to linebreed). Those resultant offspring are still fine, i.e. are not parrot-mouthed, but the tendency has been magnified because there is now twice as much of that stallion's genetics involved. Now let's say these are bred to some Fjords who also have a latent tendency toward being parrot-mouthed, and some parrot-mouthed offspring show up. Now here's the problem; It's possible that none of the Fjords that were bred to each other in the above example were parrot-mouthed. Yet finally the circumstances became such that some offspring afflicted with that problem began showing up. Also, we are now three generations away from that one stallion, and many more Fjords have entered the picture, making it very hard to know which horse or horses are to blame. It's likely to be only a few offspring affected, rather than a widespread "epidemic". Finally, since the offspring are likely to be good in other respects because they come from that very good stallion, it is going to be very tempting for the breeders to overlook the parrot-mouthedness and continue breeding them anyhow. And I don't know where the thing about getting either "a real good offspring, or a real dud" ever started, but it just ain't so folks. Like Joel, I hear it all the time as well. The reality is though, it is likely to be pretty much an average horse like any other. I can cite a number of examples. Let me use my neighbor's cow herd to illustrate. Before they started using a veterinarian (my boss) much, they routinely practiced inbreeding and linebreeding. In their case it was not with any specific objective, rather it was due to ignorance and complacency. They didn't want to spend the money to buy a different bull, so they just let the bull continuously run with the herd and he started breeding his own daughters, etc. Before long they started having lots of small calves, not really vigorous, and most of them had "contracted tendons". The legs would straighten out after a week or two with some splinting, and the calves took a little more nursing care, but after a while you couldn't tell anything was ever wrong with them. And that's just about how it would go with horses as well. Overall they would just have mild defects externally, but the hidden danger would be internal: a tendency toward small, less vigorous offspring with slight skeletal defects and lowered immunity or mental capacity. Despite all the above, some people will still try to defend linebreeding because, once in a while, you do get a superior animal. The thing they forget is that once in a while you also get a superior animal without linebreeding. And with linebreeding, there's more potential for damage to the breed than there is for improvement. We have enough different Fjord stallions in this country now that it is not that difficult to find one with whatever characteristic a person is looking for, so linebreeding is just not justified. Finally, how do you tell the sex of a chromosome? (scroll down) | | | | | | | | | | Pull down it's genes! Sorry, I couldn't resist. I can hear the collective groan already! : ) Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: breeding 3 yr old mares
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no physical reason that three-year-old mares can not be bred. They have usually attained 95% of their mature size and have often been having heat periods since around the age of 1-1/2 years. We have no evidence that it hurts or stunts them in any way. I don't think anyone could pick out of a lineup the mares who were not bred until later as compared to those bred at three. It's true they are still growing at that age, but as long as they are being fed adequately there is no problem. As far as being mentally mature, there is no doubt that they are not mature by the age of three, and maybe that's partly why you expressed some question about breeding at that age Joel? The only thing is, mares don't have to be mentally mature to raise a foal like we think of a human girl needing some maturity to do a good job raising her baby. Mares have the instinct to nurture their babies, and the babies are so precocious (early developing compared to humans) that, between the two of them, they usually figure things out just fine. Although experience is helpful, it is not needed. With people, on the other hand, while the instinct to nurture is there, the baby is totally helpless, and so the whole responsibility falls on the mother, and knowledge, maturity, and experience are much more necessary. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
using whole message in reply
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even though Joel may be the only one brave or brash enough to constantly harp about it, many of us appreciate when people include little or none of the message they were replying to. It just saves time and scrolling for us, and usually, including the original message is just not necessary; We can either figure out what the original thought was as we read the reply, or we still remember what the original message said because we just read it yesterday. If you still don't think it matters, try getting the list in Digest form for a week. That will change your mind. Thanks for being considerate. (Joel, just because I agree with you doesn't mean we are going to be exchanging spit in the shower). : ) Brian Jacobsen
jumping fences
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Teressa, If they can see over it, some time or another they'll try to jump it. : ) Brian Jacobsen
drooling
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Aimee, Last Friday you mentioned that your horses were drooling and asked what might be the reason. Clover is usually the culprit, though some other plants can cause it as well. We get about a phone call a week in the summertime from horse owners whose horses are drooling and we usually find a happy horse with nothing seriously wrong, but drooling buckets full like you described. The ingredient that causes the drooling is called Slaframine. It's not unusual that the owner swears there is no clover to be found in the pasture; It's these cases that indicate that other plants besides just clover can cause the slobbering, but we don't always know which plants. IF this is what your horses have, then it will take care of itself in a few days and there is no reason to worry because the horses will drink enough water to make up for what they are losing in slobber. Keep in mind that if you ever find your horse slobbering, and he is not his happy, active, eating self, then you may have something far more serious such as choke (esophageal blockage, not airway blockage like we use the term in people). This is an emergency and you need to make a quick call to the vet. Sincerely, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:59:17 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Hi List, >TEETH: >I haven't noticed any problems with my geldings teeth, but decided >with all >the talk of wolf teeth that I should give him a look. He just turned >5 yrs. >and I've owned him since he was a weanling. He has NO wolf teethI >think >that's just great, asked him to keep it that way :) Can they come in >at any >age or if they aren't there at 3 or 4, they probably wont show up??? >(Every >horse I've ever owned has always had them removed before I've gotten >them so >I have no idea) >SOMETHING TO DO: >My two horse LOVE to see me come to their pasture with Halter and lead >rope >in handThey always enjoy going for a ride. I think like people, >they >probably get sick of the same 4 walls, so to speak, as we do. >QUESTION: >This has me baffled a good week ago, I opened up some more >pasture, after >the hay was taken off it, to my 2 geldingswithin a few days time I > >noticed they both were DROOLING... They'll be standing there and then > >gusher! It's very much like water...but greener. They aren't sick. >They've >been eating, drinking, playing, pooping, all fine But it's really >gross! > The new pasture has a couple of Fur, pine and cedar trees, that I've >seen >them eating from Could this be caused by the pitch or something >they are >eating in the pasture? Any ideas?I've checked inside their mouths >(boy >did I get a bath) I can't find any foreign objects in there. Other >then >making a real mess of themselves and the tackthey seem happy! > >Thanks, >Aimee >In Maine
stiff muscles
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Griet, Sorry to be slow in replying; I haven't been able to read e-mail for a few days. I wonder if you are describing what we call "tying up"? In a well-conditioned horse, as yours sounds to be, it is usually due to having several days off while being fed just as much as the days when she is being used. It used to be seen commonly in draft horses on Mondays after the weekend's rest and is sometimes called Monday Morning Disease. It can range anywhere from a mild, generalized stiffness/soreness to muscle spasms so severe that the horse goes down and their legs are rigid and they can't get back up. Another possibility I would wonder about is a sore back. You didn't mention any soreness or lameness in one certain leg, so I'm assuming it's a more generalized thing. Something as simple as a horse tripping slightly and catching itself to keep from falling can result in a strained back muscle. I'm sure you realize it is hard to diagnose something over the phone (e-mail) especially with relatively little information for me to base my answer on. Those would be two common possibilities though. Do you think the "tying up" is the attack your veterinarian was referring to? I hope your mare is feeling better by now! Sincerely, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Summary of what Griet wrote: >Last two weeks we did a lot of driving..Since yesterday she has muscle problems, she is stiff..The vet said a kind of attack or something like that. >What can I do in the future that this wont happen again, and what is the reason for this?? > >Lot's of Fjordings >Griet Vandenbroucke, from sunny Belgium. >
Re: Sedation
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Karen and Jeri, Yes, I do find that Fjords usually do not need as much sedative as some other breeds of horses. Tennesse Walking Horses are similar in that they are notoriously easy to sedate. I once gave a Fjord mare a dose of sedative that should have made a Quarter Horse of the same weight a little wobbly, but not too bad. Well, the Fjord mare laid down and slept for half an hour. She could not be roused. Her vitals were fine and she was in no danger, but she just had to sleep it off. When she awoke she stood up and I did what it was I had wanted to do half-an-hour previously. Just within the last two months I have heard of two separate incidents where Fjords were given more sedative than they needed. Both situations were castrations. The most common sedative "routine" used to castrate a horse involves giving a sedative first, which makes them pretty wobbly, and then in about 5 minutes giving the actual anesthetic which causes them to lay down and be "out of it" enough for surgery. If the horse lays down after just the first injection, or looks like he's "bowing" (his front legs are stretched out straight and his chest is touching the ground, but his rear end is still way up in the air), then he got more sedative than he needed. The veterinarian may well have given the proper dose based on the horse's weight, but due to individual differences or breed differences, it was more than that particular horse needed. Usually the vet can go ahead with the second injection as planned and the surgery procedes normally after that. If a horse was given quite a bit more of the first sedative than he needed, in addition to "bowing" or lying down, he might actually become quite excited - the opposite of what the sedative is supposed to do. This can reportedly happen occasionally in a horse even with proper dosages. There is a Fjord breeder who was getting very disheartened about having colts gelded because every time they tried, the colt would start to lay down after just the first injection, and then suddenly become so agitated and excited they couldn't even hold on to him. And their Fjords are normally very easy-going and well-handled.They are going to ask their veterinarian to back off on the dose a fair amount next time and see what happens, and I suspect that will take care of the problem. To those of you reading this, if your veterinarian seems reluctant to use a slightly lower dose after you have told them that many Fjords do not need as much, remind him/her that they can always add a little more to it in a few minutes if the first dose didn't give them the sedation they wanted. (Be careful - they may not like being told their business. If you are getting resistance, then it might be best to phrase it in a question like "Well, can't you start with a slightly lower dose and then just give a little more if you need it?") Keep in mind too that one reason they might argue with you about using a lower dose is that you just told them that Fjords react in some ways more like a mule than a horse. Mules are notoriously HARD to sedate, meaning they need MORE than a horse of the same size! Also, you may have just told him that since Fjords have such big bone, they weigh more than another horse of the same height, so he was planning on using more not less. Finally, remember that if the horse, Fjord or otherwise, is already excited or scared etc before the sedative is given, it probably won't affect them as much as ordinarily would be expected. Also, some Fjords, due to individual differences, may take multiple doses and much more sedative than was thought at first just to get them where you need them. God makes horses all different just as He does people. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: wolf teeth
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail, I believe maybe the veterinarian confused his terminology. Wolf teeth are common in both sexes and all breeds. They are the small teeth which are usually immediately in front of, and touching, the big upper molars. It is a fairly minor procedure to remove those. Canine teeth are the ones that females usually don't have, and those are fairly easy to see (in a horse that has them) by opening the mouth and looking, on the top or the bottom, in the big space between the incisors and the molars. It's unfortunate that the name "wolf teeth" was ever used for those small teeth in the upper jaw of a horse. When you think of a wolf, you think of long fangs or canines, so many people think the canines (the ones they can see easily) are the wolf teeth. Just remember, the canines are what you'd expect: fairly sharp, usually on top and bottom, and in between the incisors and the molars, AND usually only in males. The wolf teeth are smaller, more difficult to see and feel, and are right in front of, and touching, the upper molars. They are actually a premolar. Hope that helps! Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
garlic as dewormer
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Alex for asking what I knew about using garlic as a dewormer for horses. I had wanted to offer a caution to depending just on garlic after I read Lauren's original message. Note please that I am not saying garlic does not work as a dewormer for horses, but to my knowledge, there have never been any good studies done on it to prove whether it does work or it doesn't. As many of you know, garlic has been proven to have some very beneficial effects in humans. The latest study I read demonstrated that after a person had a heart attack, if they started eating a clove of garlic a day, those peoples' rates of reoccurrance of heart problems was statistically lower than those who rarely ate garlic. The problem is that controlled studies have not been done to see what, if any, effect garlic has on intestinal parasites of equines. The evidence is just anecdotal, meaning that here and there someone will say, "I believe garlic helped keep worms out of my horses" etc. And here is the problem with anecdotal evidence; We can convince ourselves of anything if we hear it enough. And "enough" actually doesn't have to be all that much. Here's an example - Tomorrow morning someone tells you that they heard that licorice is a good dewormer for horses. Then in the afternoon someone else tells you again that licorice is a good dewormer for horses. The next day, when a different person asks you what's a good dewormer for a horse, you are very likely to say, "You know, I've heard alot lately that licorice is a good dewormer for horses." We, as a general rule, are very easily swayed by "public opinion". Now we don't just accept these things blindly. Whether you were aware of it or not, your mind (in my example) weighed what you knew about licorice against that statement and decided whether it had merit or not. Have you ever heard that licorice was NOT a good dewormer for horses? No, you haven't. Is licorice good? Well, you may or may not like it, but many people do. Doesn't it come from a plant or something? Yes. And don't many plants and herbs have things in them that are good for you? Yes. So you have no reason not to believe it, and it sounds like it could possibly be true, so you are already far on your way to believing it is true, and not only that, wanting to tell other people about it as well! Here's a very current example of the above that we just found out about on the Fjord List. How many of you thought Fjords were directly descended from the Prezwalskis? You read that somewhere in an article about Fjords right? They do look more like a Prezwalski than almost any other horse. And supposedly Fjords are one of the oldest equine breeds? It just makes sense right? Wrong. Bonnie Hendrix just told us that this commonly held belief is actually a misconception; It's not true. But we were all very ready to believ it. One more example. I talked to a horse owner whose horse was having a problem with a lameness and some swelling in one leg. His veterinarian had tried several things to clear up the problem but to no avail. He then took the horse to a chiropracter and just swore that the chiropracter had helped his horse. Our conversation went something like this: "So the visit to the chiropracter helped your horse?" "Oh yes, without a doubt - she's much better!" "Has the swelling gone down some?" "No". "Oh, but the lameness is better?" "Not really". "But you say the chiropracter helped?" "Oh yes, my mare is looking better and moving better. She's just a lot better!" Doesn't make sense does it? The swelling was the same and the lameness was the same, but he was convinced the mare was so much better. He had wanted so badly to believe that the visit to the chiropracter was going to help, that he just plain convinced himself it had, whether that was contrary to the evidence or not. He did not even realize he was contradicting himself. In fact, let me give you some anecdotal evidence that garlic does NOT work against worms in horses. (Better evaluate this critically to decided if you can believe me or not : )Here in the Southeast, in the wintertime, we have something that looks like chives (i.e. onions) that grows in the pasture better than anything else. And horses love it. Well, it is commonly thought to be wild onions, but a botanist has told me it is actually more closely related to garlic. Seriously now - if you visit someone in the Southeast who has horses in the wintertime - DON'T SMELL THEIR HORSES BREATH! It will knock you down!! (You wonder what I'm doing going around smelling horses' breath? Well, that's a story for another time. But take my word for it - DON'T DO IT!) The point is, horses around here eat the stuff like crazy and I guarantee, we still see lots of horses with worm problems. Now lets go one step farther. What if someone, perhaps the person that told Lauren about garlic, said, "The only thing I've been giving
pinworms and tail itching
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Alex, It's pinworms which are usually blamed for tail rubbing. The pinworms have a nasty little habit of crawling out of a horse's anus and laying their eggs on the hairless skin immediately around the anal opening. The whole thing is really quite irritating and causes a horse to itch and thus scratch. Most of the commonly available pastewormers are very effective against pinworms, so usually the numbers a horse has aren't too high. However, if a horse was scratching but stopped after you pastewormed, and then 6-8 weeks later was scratching again, pinworms would be a possibility. Other good possibilities at this time of the year would be allergies and ticks. Thanks for asking, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: the 25% factor
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie Bushnell asked, >Brian, if a conditioned Fjord can reportedly bear 25% of its correct body weight, how >much would you gauge that a non-Fjord carry in proportion to its weight? When I heard the 25% figure, it was actually for horses in general, not Fjords. So even though Fjords should be stronger, that's still probably a good figure to keep in mind. >Speaking of your auto analogy.. I've always felt that Fjords were 3/4 ton 4-wheel trucks, >wheras common horses are 1/2 ton twos =) I like that description! Thanks, Brian
Re: Wormers...again
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Teressa Kandianis wrote in regards to deworming her two growing Fjords with Quest: >...now the two together exceed the 1150 lbs, ( I think- I don't have the box right in front of >me.) by about 150 lbs. So, I'm guessing that neither of them got the full recommended >dose for their size. >Should I just wait until the next time for worming them? Should I supplement what each >got with a little more Quest now? Will an underdose - though probably a small one - not >knock back the worms? Teressa, The best thing you could do right now to know what that particular dose of Quest did for each of your young Fjords is to have your veterinarian do a fecal exam for worm eggs. We can look in the microscope at a sample of a horse's stool for worm eggs, and, even though there are no hard and fast numbers, we know in general how many worm eggs we should be seeing for a certain number of weeks post deworming. Anotherwards, with good pastewormers, by a week after the dose was administered, we should see very few or preferably no worm eggs in the stool. A month after, we often see the numbers increasing a little. And by about 6 weeks for Strongid and 8weeks for Zimectrin, the worm eggs sometimes are back up to pre-deworming levels. Quest claims that the worm eggs will not rise again to pre-deworming levels until about 12 weeks after using it. So, if you have a fecal exam done and no worm eggs are seen, then either the Quest did the job or your horses did not have adult worms in them laying eggs anyhow. If, however, a fecal exam done a week or two after the deworming shows medium or high numbers of worm eggs, the dose of Quest was insufficient. If you just went ahead, without having a fecal exam done, and gave each of them another small amount of Quest to try to make up for the little bit they missed, you would in effect just be underdosing them twice. So this would not be recommended. As a bit of practical advice, you might take some stool from each of the young Fjords in question to your veterinarian for the fecal exam. If the exam shows medium or high levels of worm eggs, provided your veterinarian agrees to the following advice, deworm them again now with a different type of dewormer (Zimectrin or Strongid for example). If the exam shows low numbers or no worm eggs, deworm them a little sooner than you would have ordinarily and use something other than Quest. So, for example, instead of waiting the 12 weeks that Quest says you can, deworm again in 8 weeks with Zimectrin or Strongid. This way, if any of the worms received a sub-lethal dose of Moxidectin (Quest), and were stunned but not killed so to speak, and are now starting to develop some resistance to Quest, hopefully the next dewormer, being a different kind, would kill them and not allow them to pass that Quest resistance on to thousands of offspring. Keep one thing in mind in regards to the weight tape for Fjords; It more often underestimates their weight than overestimating it. The weight tape was developed on horses who, in general, had higher withers than Fjords and did not have as strong or as heavy bones in their legs. So keep in mind that your Fjords will probably weigh slightly more than what the tape says. For those of you not using a weight tape, make sure you are guessing their weight heavy enough. Studies have shown that most horse owners AND THEIR VETERINARIANS underestimate horses' weight more often than they overestimate it. A weight tape is a good thing to use because, even though it may not be perfect, it gets you close. Sincerely, Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
trained geldings
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks to those who replied about their trained geldings for sale. Steve (the list owner) has said before he doesn't mind brief "for sale" ads, so mention them when you've got them. Thanks, Brian Jacobsen
