Re: Genetic Diversity & breeding what works.
This message is from: Sara Faull <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > We have three Gjest/Solar sons on the farm -- two > of them are for sale. -- BJORNROD - (Gjest x Tyra - Solar) > ASTI > (Gjest x Zona - Solar) -- BDF QUASAR (Gjest x Holly - Solar) > Quasar is > not for sale. The others are, and whoever gets either of them will > have a > remarkable horse. --- All three of these horses take your breath > away with > their substance and athletic ability. -- It's another one of > those "Magic > Crosses" -- A match that really works time and time again. -- The > movement is pure Gjest. It's just so super to see a horse use his > body like > that with the forehand and the hindquarters both working to the > ultimate -- > > * 5 yr. old Gjest son - Solar dam. -- Superb mover! As kind as > they > get. -- You will not believe the soft mouth on this horse or how > beautifully & immediately he halts. > We had this gelding, Bjorn, on our farm last spring for harness training. As Carol said he is an elegant, responsive horse. You can also add farm work to his repertoire He plowed 2 acres as one of a three abreast. Although he is not "drafty" (quite the opposite, actually), he pulled his share of the weight without hesitation. Farm work is also great to teach a horse to stop and to stand quietly. As Carol stated he will make someone a remarkable horse. We also have on our farm right now another Gjest x Solar cross. She is a dainty, pretty mare with beautiful movement and a gorgeous head. Another testament to this cross. She has a beautiful colt sired by our stallion, Karimann. He is refined, but is well proportioned and has very nice movement. The colt is for sale. Sara Faull Mandala Farm Maine
Re: Genetic Diversity & breeding what works.
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- I think this discussion of genetic diversity is an extremely worthwhile topic, and I'm so pleased that so many have a serious opinion on the subject. One of our interns this summer is a wonderful young man from Holland. He's 24 years old, has a Masters Degree in American History, and has lived for a year each in Wisconsin and Hawaii. --- When he finished his Masters, he took the year of study in Hawaii, and because he'd done so well in his previous studies, he was given the opportunity to study anything he iked. -- So, he decided that since he'd always majored in history and languages he'd take some science courses, and while perusing the offerings, he happened on something called "Equine Science" and decided he'd try t. -- Well, he became so interested that when he returned to Holland, he found the best equine school and enrolled. His course is a four year course, but because of his past education, he was able to enroll in the third year. -- He enrolled in our Internship Program to get practical experience in running a professional stable, and also to gain more experience in the saddle. Each year with all our interns we try to balance their needs and desires with our needs. -- Andre is such a student, and is, in fact, absolutely brilliant, that we have asked him to translate significant parts of B. J. van Bon's book "Van Vestlandhest tot Fjordenpaard". -- The first part he'll do is the part relating to the exceptional Fjord bloodline of Baronen. I say "exceptional" as Bob van Bon has always told me that this line is truly exceptional because it's not related to any of the other foundation lines. -- I'm not sure I ever fully understood this. Bob's english isn't flawless, and although we've had many interns over the years from Holland, none of them have been able to give me any more than a rough translation. -- I've even tried with some local Dutch people in our area, and there are a lot of them, but that was not successful either. -- One of the problems besides not being a student of both Dutch and English, is the special "horse language" terms used in the text. But, now having Andre with us until Ocotber, I have great hopes of finally getting this valuable text in English. ~~~ BREEDING WHAT WORKS -- Breeding Gjest to Solar daughters works so well, you can't begin to imagine it. Twenty-seven years ago, a wonderful, old Norwegian Fjord judge named David Klove, advised us by saying --- "You MUST breed Gjest to Solar daughters". You will get the very best Fjordhorses. The man was right! -- We have three Gjest/Solar sons on the farm -- two of them are for sale. -- BJORNROD - (Gjest x Tyra - Solar) ASTI (Gjest x Zona - Solar) -- BDF QUASAR (Gjest x Holly - Solar) Quasar is not for sale. The others are, and whoever gets either of them will have a remarkable horse. --- All three of these horses take your breath away with their substance and athletic ability. -- It's another one of those "Magic Crosses" -- A match that really works time and time again. -- The movement is pure Gjest. It's just so super to see a horse use his body like that with the forehand and the hindquarters both working to the ultimate -- As one of our trainers, Kelly MacDonald, says . . . . "I just love to see a Fjord that really looks like a Fjord, and these boys do. -- They have everything that the breed needs which is - size & substance --- rhythm, regularity, & reach --- work ethic --- willingness and ease of handling -- GENETIC DIVERSITY -- Yes, this is a subject that all Fjord breeders, big or small, should be informed about. -- Breeding related individuals results in weakness in the breed. It's a bad idea, particularly for horses. --- Particularly for horses expected to be strong, using, versatile, healthy, long-lived animals. Breeders should constantly strive to mate the best qualilty horses, and this does NOT necessarily mean going strictly by Evaluation results. -- A breeder should never breed without looking at as many offspring as is possible. And in today's world, it is possible. -- A breeder should never breed to a particular stallion without looking at the stallion's dam. -- A lot of people forget that. --- If the stallion is gorgeous, but his dam was ugly, it doesn't matter how wonderful the stud is. -- ALWAYS LOOK AT THE DAM! That's enough preaching for me today. Lots of work to do. If you're looking for a high quality, well trained Fjord, look us up this summer. We're having an extraordi
RE: Re: genetic diversity
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 03:46 PM 7/5/2006, you wrote: This message is from: "Eike Schoen-Petersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Karen, the question is, how many of these mares produce a foal per average year? Now in Norway, Denmark and Germany there were between 300 and 400 foals registered last year (each). Mike May can tell you how many he registered last year. I registered 358 horses in 2005. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: genetic diversity
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 03:46 PM 7/5/2006, you wrote: This message is from: "Eike Schoen-Petersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Karen, the question is, how many of these mares produce a foal per average year? Now in Norway, Denmark and Germany there were between 300 and 400 foals registered last year (each). Mike May can tell you how many he registered last year. I registered 358 last year. Netherlands is a special case, I don´t now the numbers there. Maybe five hundred together in Belgium, Sweden, Finland, France, UK, a handful in Switzerland, some scattered foals in the Czech republic, Poland, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, Spain, not much more. How many active mares does that make, really participating in a selective breeding programme? Maybe I underestimate the number of living mares, but so far I cannot see the foals being born from active mares. Many registries carry animals just because nobody declared them deceased. There is no way of making a true head count of the breeding population except by the product, the registered foals. I´d be happy to stand corrected! Eike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: genetic diversity
This message is from: "Eike Schoen-Petersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Karen, the question is, how many of these mares produce a foal per average year? Now in Norway, Denmark and Germany there were between 300 and 400 foals registered last year (each). Mike May can tell you how many he registered last year. Netherlands is a special case, I don´t now the numbers there. Maybe five hundred together in Belgium, Sweden, Finland, France, UK, a handful in Switzerland, some scattered foals in the Czech republic, Poland, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, Spain, not much more. How many active mares does that make, really participating in a selective breeding programme? Maybe I underestimate the number of living mares, but so far I cannot see the foals being born from active mares. Many registries carry animals just because nobody declared them deceased. There is no way of making a true head count of the breeding population except by the product, the registered foals. I´d be happy to stand corrected! Eike
Re: Genetic diversity
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: "Eike Schoen-Petersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...Agricultural geneticists tell me that you only need a population of about 1,000 females for a sound breeding programme. Eike There are two different forms of usage for the word "population;" 1) commonly used as indicating number of a category, (like, size of a town, or? 2) and then there is "effective genome population," a geneticist would undoubtedly be referring to this measure, of a gene pool ...which is invariably smaller than an overall headcount population. The head count (populace) does not directly indicate a pure breed's genetic health. Population genetics is a study or measure of allele frequency distribution within a breed, which would vary in amount for many same-size (pop) different breeds.. Because, only a portion of any collective headcount actually breeds, and some portion will have a far greater measure of inbreeding than others---depending on their founder events, mode of mate selection, geographical distribution, marketing trends, breed society requirements, etc. Basically, any specific breed which mates within their breed perimeter, is UNDENIABLY inbred. So it's not "IF," ...it's "HOW MUCH?" It is the enormity of inbreeding and how we might check that evolution that we focus on, because trying to avoid inbreeding by studying pedigrees is becoming more and more difficult, numerous common ancestors spanning many generations, very complex! A mating couple may initially appear not to be related but if three or four generations back they are very closely related, you have the potential for very heavy inbreeding. I understand that one ramification of inbreeding, that comes with intensity, is that the gender ratio mutates.. this would be an interesting statistical project. (I wasn't able to find that reference however,) ..it's possibly something to keep in mind as we research ..certainly it would be interesting to know, with or without the science. Summation: we can take an overall head count, count the amount of mares and sires, but they might only represent ten actual distinct bloodlines in their genome, considerably less than their head count population, so the head count in terms of genetic health is immaterial. Ruthie, nw mt US
RE: Genetic diversity
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:18 PM 7/4/2006, you wrote: This message is from: "Karen Keith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Eike: Can this be right? We have a worldwide gene pool of maybe 10,000 mares. That would mean that more than half are in North America as there are 5100 mares in the NFHR registry. I have no idea how many are in the Canadian registry. Which doesn't allow for a whole lot in all of the European registries and wherever else in the world Fjords are. Sorry Karen but there are only 2843 mares registered in the NFHR right now. There are 5064 total registered. These numbers are "Registered" Not necessarily Living horses. Just scratching my head over that number. Karen _ realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Genetic diversity
This message is from: "Karen Keith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Eike: Can this be right? We have a worldwide gene pool of maybe 10,000 mares. That would mean that more than half are in North America as there are 5100 mares in the NFHR registry. I have no idea how many are in the Canadian registry. Which doesn't allow for a whole lot in all of the European registries and wherever else in the world Fjords are. Just scratching my head over that number. Karen _ realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
Re: Genetic diversity discussion
This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Olivia Farm, I want to offer apology to Ruthie an anyone else that I may have offended with my last post - that was not my intention. I was only pointing out that people who tote themselves as "stewards of the breed" and are concerned with genetic diversity should do more research than just the related-ness of their own ponies. Personally, I believe that genetic diversity is just one issue of responsible breeding, along with breeding for good conformation, movement, temperament, fjord type, etc. I agree with Warren that breeding horses with undesirable characteristics just for the sake of diversity is a mistake. I am also sorry that my comment about under-used lines and stallions was taken to mean non-evaluated stock. I was actually thinking of a few specific stallions that have been evaluated either here or in Europe. Once again, I'm sorry that it looked like I had singled out individual stallions and breeding programs. As I said in my original post, my research and comments were limited to give an impression only, not to be taken as anything other than pointing out facts that are available for us all to see on the NFHR site. Thanks again for the good discussion, Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm www.oliviafarm.com
Fw: genetic diversity
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *** I tried to send this a couple of days ago, but don't think it went through. *** Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- I'll be the first one to admit that I am not scientifically or technically inclined. I mean I can barely operate my cell phone. However, I have always been very aware of the dangers of close breeding and have made every effort to not go there. -- I was taught by the best =-= Bob van Bon, Chief Inspector of Fjords for Holland. -- Bob has always counseled me in that direction. I remember an incident on one of my trips to Holland. I went with Bob to a Keuring, and there I saw a gorgeous, big mare that greatly interested me. I was wandering around alone at the time, so hurried over to Bob to ask about the mare. He brushed me off and said, she wasn't "for me", or something like that. But, being stubborn, I persisted, and kept asking about this sublime re. -- Finally, he said . . . "Just wait until we get back tot he office and I'll show you." What he showed me was the mare's extended pedigree which had more than the recommended ratio of line breeding. -- Bob told me that the mare had been in a few driving accidents, and he was quite positive that this was attributable to her less than steady character which was due to the close breeding. -- I learned a lesson that day. Beaver Dam Farm has imported over a hundred Fjords from Holland, and a few (including Gjest and Stine) from Norway "via" Holland. -- In those hundred plus imported Fjords, there are myriad bloodlines -- AND ALL VERY GOOD ONES! -- They really were ALL very good ones. I couldn't help getting good ones since we purchased the horses based on the Dutch Keuring (Evaluation) system. I knew in advance that the sire of the horse I was getting was an approved, tested Studbook Stallion. I knew in advance that the dam's sire was an approved, tested, Studbook Stallion. -- I knew how the horse I was importing had been classified since weanling age, and usually every year thereafter. -- I knew the numerical Keuring score (1 - 10) that had been given for conformation, the three gaits, and the horse's presence and character. This is important. -- I certainly understand the need for us to be vigilant with a seriousness of purpose in regards to keeping the bloodlines as diverse as possible. But, we also must be equally vigilant and serious about maintaining quality reeding. -- And this does NOT in any way mean just breeding to stallions and mares with Blue Evaluation. -- But, what it does mean is making every effort to avoid horses with serious faults. -- What it means is that if you are a mare owner, and you are not an experienced horse person. Experienced in conformation and movement and breed type, then you should not be picking out stallions on your own. You should, in one way or another, get the very best guidance you can get. Pay someone to help you. BUT! For heaven's sake, be sure that the person you get has the necessary quallifications. Do your homework. DO NOT go on the supposed expert's personality or ability to "talk the talk". -- We've seen this time and time again. -- I wrote an article years ago titled "People Concerns over Fjord Horse Concerns". -- If I was in that position and didn't trust my own abilities to make such an important judgement, then I think I would try and get a sport horse judge . . . a Warmblood judge to help me pick out a stallion for my are. -- Because, in our opinion, Fjords are short Warmbloods. I believe that most Fjord Studbooks in Europe are now looking on the Fjord in that light. They want a capable athletic Fjord. -- Of course, they want to retain the special Fjord characteristics, but they want them combined with the athletic ability that will create a good riding and driving horse that can be competitive in the big, open world of horses. -- But, picking out a stallion for your mare isn't as easy as paying someone to find you one with the best conformation. -- You do need to read the pedigrees and understand them. And how many people do? Not a lot, I think. This is rather rambling, but my story about the "gorgeous mare" I saw in Holland that turned out to be a fruitcake, probably due to her close breeding illustrates my point, which is that when you're aiming to produce SOLID, USING HORSES, you're going to do what's necessary to make that happen. In other words, doing everything you can to produce good, strong, capable, reliable, long-lived horses. -- On the opposite side of the coin, if all you're interested in is producing show ring winners, then you'll take that road to get that result. -- You won't be concerned about how vigorous, strong, capable, and useful the horse is. -- All he needs to do is trot around the show ring and take home his ribbons. So, in my unscie
Genetic diversity
This message is from: "Eike Schoen-Petersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Most of us are trying by selective breeding to come as close to the breeding goal as possible. Otherwise it wouldn´t be the Fjord breeding goal. And we are fortunate in a way that the Fjord breed is rather uniform in appearance compared to some other breeds. That is why we have some qualities that can almost be guaranteed in a Fjord. We have a worldwide gene pool of maybe 10,000 mares. Agricultural geneticists tell me that you only need a population of about 1,000 females for a sound breeding programme. Zoologists confirm that whole species have recovered from just very few animals. Therefore I don´t worry. I have followed the pedigree of my oldest mare down to Njaal and friends and certainly there is a lot of doubling up back and forth between the different lines. But compared to other very successful breeds I see less genetically determined problems in Fjords than in these other breeds with much larger gene pools. When there are problems with inbreeding we will see them and then (!) we should act accordingly. Until then - no worry! Eike
Re: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks for the info Fred, after I sent the question I was debating if it was a polite way to enter cuss words!!! Sorry, Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
RE: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: "Frederick J Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jean, when someone sends a message formatted using Graphics, or HTML, the server has to translate the message into plain text. The results are the odd characters. NOW WARREN, just exactly who are you implying isn't there own man/woman on this list. Do the innuendos start on this list too.. Fred All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 Warren, help me understand those @#% that you use instead of writing or spelling them? Just curious, Jean Gayle
Re[4]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:04 PM 7/3/2006, you wrote: This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't know for a fact, but I really can't imagine that any registry is still keeping its data on paper. If that is the case, once the combined database was built it would be simple for the various registries to submit new additions using a common format. I don't know of any keeping the records on paper anymore either. If there are any they would be small enough to not worry about anyway. I suppose it is doable but like you already said it would have to be done by FHI or some other international group to really make it work. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 7/3/2006 11:21:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Warren, help me understand those @#% that you use instead of writing or spelling them? Jean, I believe it is just that the list is not compatible with some of the punctuation functions on Warren's computer. If you'll notice, the figures appear where quote marks and such should be. Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords 260 May Creek Rd Days Creek, OR 97429 541-825-3303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Warren, help me understand those @#% that you use instead of writing or spelling them? Just curious, Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Genetic diversity/genetic problems?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] What genetic issues do the fjords have? The Australian shepherd breed is dealing with eye issues, hip displaysia, epilepsy, liver shunts and many other issues. Just about every individual in the most popular Aussie line goes back to a couple of breedings of one dog (Harpers Old Smokey) to his daughter. This breeding became the basis of virtually all Aussies seen in the breed ring today. And now some breeders select certain individuals in within that line to further line breed on. One such popular dog is himself the product of a half brother/sister mating. So there's a serious lack of genetic diversity within certain segments of the breed. CA Sharp is highly respected within the breed, and she is a pioneer of not sweeping genetic issues under the table. However, this is not to sidetrack the list into a discussion of Australian shepherds and their genetic problems. I know this type of inbreeding is forbidden by the fjord registry. But do fjords have any genetic defects within the breed? If so, are breeders at a point to where they will admit them? Or is this discussion based on the probability that some may arise in the future, and with the hope of maintaining the genetic soundness of this wonderful breed? Is this discussion purely academic? Respectfully, Jane St. Paul, MN Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Re[4]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike-- Sunday, July 2, 2006, you wrote: >> I know that would be a tremendous undertaking, because it would >> require coordinating all registry's studbooks, but that's the >> reason I propose it should be a project undertaken by the FHI. > The only way I see it ever happening is if all of the world's > registries were able to upload their own new horses as they are > foaled. Even at that it would take a great deal of coordination of > effort to get it to a usable state. I don't know for a fact, but I really can't imagine that any registry is still keeping its data on paper. If that is the case, once the combined database was built it would be simple for the various registries to submit new additions using a common format. -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA Horses carry the history of mankind on their backs. If you should find one is carrying you as well, acknowledge your good fortune and indeed your honor. --Lucinda Prior Palmer(b. 1953)
Genetic diversity?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey there Steve, I guess I should apologize for referencing breeding Fjords to Zebras - you know, Steve, I guess it was a truly stupid statement I made -- Certainly it was intended as a joke.But obviously it prejudiced some reactions.If you are into genetics it is really is quite funny! I am so surprised, but, perhaps I am wrong, You wrote â He (C.A.)is addressing a very real problem with Aussies and many other purebred dog breeds, not lack of members or funds, but very real, frightening genetic defects showing up in increasing numbers in successive generations of pupsâ You know Steve when people leave out the details we all may think we have reason for concern.If C.A. had written â 2% of our pups are having frightening genetic defects, while in the dog breeding industry twenty years ago the average for defects was 0.1%â, that would get my attention but when the details are left out -- why Next you wrote ââ¦with an eye to maintaining sufficient genetic diversity to eliminate it.âSteve tell me.Do good genes cure problems or does genetic diversity cure problems? What is in genetic diversity that causes good traits??? Answer, nothing at all unless there are good traits in the diversity that are missing in the problem group of animals.Am I missing the point about good genes? If we are diverse enough, do bad genes turn into good genes? We do have quite a variety of patrons on this site and I would guess with the exception of two people who have different agendas - everyone (Ruthie included) would agree that the North America Fjord horse has tons of superior genes. If we were to out-cross, what in the world makes any of us think that in this out-cross we would only get the good genes from the mating. In a silly example if we mate a Fjord with 95% excellent genes with a horse from another breed with 87% good genes do you think the progeny will have 100% excellent genes?? Here is another example.If we have a breeder whose Fjords have a particular problem, should he be breeding them at all or turning them into pets.Why would you even breed a âlineâ that had problems.If you had problems with the offspring of a stallion or mare, why would you want to cross-breed it?How could you even be sure that an out-cross would cure the problem?To redraw my example, why would you cross a Fjord with 85% good traits to a horse of another breed with 80% or 100% good traits.Why would you cross-breed the Fjord at all?There are plenty of Fjords with 95% good traits. OK, so it has been stated that there were severe problems with the Aussies although we donât seem to know if it was in 0.01% or 10% of the pups.Letâs not just say the sky is falling or might fall in regards to Fjords.Letâs focus.Is one of the contributors to this list asserting that there are now actual defects in the Fjord gene pool?What are they?How often do they occur?Do they occur at all among any major âlinesâ or âbreedersâ?So, letâs assume one of the contributors to this list asserts an actual current problem.What breed must be introduced into the Fjord breed to cure the alleged problem?If there are no problems are we just âChicken Littleâ? I think in the absence of scientific details Steve, your dissertation of a negative future for Fjords is not helpful. You are in a very difficult position when you argue with success. I do not believe you are carrying water for someone with a different agenda I believe you are your own man. Steve, are we still OK or do I get cut off this site too? Warren in Spokane
Re[3]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:16 AM 7/2/2006, you wrote: This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike-- Sunday, July 2, 2006, you wrote: > Our current database does go back to Njal N-166 and a bit farther. > Take a look at HAKON JARL N-645 That's true and really great, but I don't believe the database allows tracing every horse currently registered with the NFHR back that far. No it doesn't. I said that in my first message. When they originally went from paper log books to a database system they only put the horses in that were in pedigrees back 5 generations. None of them went back as far as Njal. I added him and a few other well known lines a few years ago. Wish I had the time to go back & add all of the old lines but I just don;\'t. I know that would be a tremendous undertaking, because it would require coordinating all registry's studbooks, but that's the reason I propose it should be a project undertaken by the FHI. The only way I see it ever happening is if all of the world's registries were able to upload their own new horses as they are foaled. Even at that it would take a great deal of coordination of effort to get it to a usable state. Without such a combined pedigree database it is impossible to do more than guess about the closeness of any given cross. Yes you are right there. Mike -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA Paranoia is just knowing all the facts. --William S. Burroughs === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re[2]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Actually, although I am no expert, there is certainly such a file on ancestors of Fjords in either Norway, or Germany. I base this on their interest in their own lineage!!! Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re[3]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike-- Sunday, July 2, 2006, you wrote: > Our current database does go back to Njal N-166 and a bit farther. > Take a look at HAKON JARL N-645 That's true and really great, but I don't believe the database allows tracing every horse currently registered with the NFHR back that far. I know that would be a tremendous undertaking, because it would require coordinating all registry's studbooks, but that's the reason I propose it should be a project undertaken by the FHI. Without such a combined pedigree database it is impossible to do more than guess about the closeness of any given cross. -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA Paranoia is just knowing all the facts. --William S. Burroughs
Re[2]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:05 PM 7/1/2006, you wrote: This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie-- Saturday, July 1, 2006, you wrote: > I've been considerably encouraged since Steve made that > recommendation for a world class cross-referencing DNA databank. We > would love to see that initiated! I can't think of anything more > worthwhile that could be done for the Fjord breed. Actually, I never recommended anything as comprehensive as a DNA databank. Actually since we have only been DNA typing for about 10 years now it wouldn't go back very far anyway. Simply a pedigree database going back as far as possible, ideally at least to Njaal 166. Our current database does go back to Njal N-166 and a bit farther. Take a look at HAKON JARL N-645 http://www.nfhr.com/ponyweb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=2766 There are a lot of horses missing for sure though. When the database was put together they only put horses in that were in pedigrees of horses that were registered. I added a lot of them a few years ago to get some of the more well known lines back as far as Njal. Mike With such data, much more accurate calculations could be made to determine Coefficient of Inbreeding. -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse. --Robert Smith Surtees(1803-1864) === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: Genie Dethloff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, I don't think Solveig "pointed any fingers into other people's pastures" nor did she "make targeted individual recriminations" or be inciteful. She was insightful though and just presented some information she collected about stallions in her area and encouraged others to possibly reach beyond the normally used stallions in their area, if they are closely related. Since she included her own stallion, she was certainly not pointing fingers. You are the one being inciteful and attacking and that should be cautious of what you write in reply to others' well thought out emails.. But I don't agree with pointing fingers into other people's pastures and I'd advise against it. I know of animal lists that EXPRESSLY forbid bringing individual animal names, farms, or kennels, into list conversations about breed concerns, because someone's feelings might be hurt or all hell might bust loose! You see, it's one thing to talk about ideas, generalities, theories, projections, principles, etc, but quite another to make targeted individual recriminations. This tactic is inciteful, does nothing but muddy the waters of reason and detracts from the potential for resolving an important issue. while that could be done for the Fjord breed. Ruthie, nw mt -- Genie Dethloff Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re[2]: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie-- Saturday, July 1, 2006, you wrote: > I've been considerably encouraged since Steve made that > recommendation for a world class cross-referencing DNA databank. We > would love to see that initiated! I can't think of anything more > worthwhile that could be done for the Fjord breed. Actually, I never recommended anything as comprehensive as a DNA databank. Simply a pedigree database going back as far as possible, ideally at least to Njaal 166. With such data, much more accurate calculations could be made to determine Coefficient of Inbreeding. -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse. --Robert Smith Surtees(1803-1864)
Re: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...My research is probably not 100% accurate... I want to encourage everyone who has posted about genetic diversity (and anyone else who is interested) to really take a look at their breeding programs in the "big picture". ... Solveig - Accurate? I would say your research is inaccurate because if is INSUFFICIENT, but I'm glad to see the wheels turning anyhow and maybe it's a very small start on something big, certainly it's an acknowledgement of a problem anyhow. =))) But I don't agree with pointing fingers into other people's pastures and I'd advise against it. I know of animal lists that EXPRESSLY forbid bringing individual animal names, farms, or kennels, into list conversations about breed concerns, because someone's feelings might be hurt or all hell might bust loose! You see, it's one thing to talk about ideas, generalities, theories, projections, principles, etc, but quite another to make targeted individual recriminations. This tactic is inciteful, does nothing but muddy the waters of reason and detracts from the potential for resolving an important issue. Although I personally believe you made a good point about not passing over perfectly good stallions for breeding--this is why I too would hate to ever see the FHI recommendation for evaluated approved breeding stallions only. (we need MORE stallions, not less, I agree.) How many names are on a pedigree? Sixty-three... and each of those sixty three names represent sixty-three other pedigree names.. let's see.. that's three thousand, nine hundred and sixty-nine names represented on a ONE horse pedigree...!!! and you think you're going to sit down one afternoon and make some kind of a one horse assessment, disregarding the other three thousand, nine hundred and sixty-eight horses on that SAME pedigree...!!! I don't think so Solveig. There are many variable unreckoned factors in your assessment additionally.. if a stud sires only five colts, but they are all sold UNgelded, and another stud sires 15 but fourteen are gelded.. which of the two has contributed the most toward gene condensation? And what about the mares? (are they inconsequential? --same difference!). It is beyond the capability of any of us to make accurate gene conclusions. That's why we desperately need a DNA program that will chart a course for the future good of our rare breed, we can then measure the extent of inbreeding in particular lines and make recommendations for their cessation or promotion. It would be the best money ever spent toward guarding genetic purity; which is the bylaw mandated PURPOSE of the registry. It's NOT what we've done, it's what are we going to do in the future? Fjords, like toothpaste, cannot be put back.. but with DNA tracking we could chart a course of preservation through the oncoming years. I've been considerably encouraged since Steve made that recommendation for a world class cross-referencing DNA databank. We would love to see that initiated! I can't think of anything more worthwhile that could be done for the Fjord breed. Ruthie, nw mt
Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Olivia Farm, Before I start, I just want to clarify that I am not advocating any breeding decisions based on this email. I am just posting some interesting findings that I think have merit for the discussion on genetic diversity in our beloved fjord breed. As we all know, you can't breed 2 unrelated fjords - they are all related - and I'm glad to see that people take seriously the NFHR suggestion of examining pedigrees for related-ness when they breed their horses. However, there is a bigger problem than just the crossing of two horses. It is all well and good to look just to your own back pasture, but to be true stewards of the breed, you need to see what others in the fjord breed are doing. I took the time this morning to do a little pedigree research on the NFHR pony-web. I looked at 6 stallions, their offspring, and only as far back as their dam and sire. I wanted to see how many other breeding stallions were either direct descendants of those specific stallions or their parents. My research is probably not 100% accurate, but it gives a general impression. Here is my list: A2Z Thorson - 14 other stallions CaseAcres Magnus - 7 other stallions BDF Titian - 9 (all through Gjest) Qvadmann - 7 other stallions Anvil's Morgen - 6 other stallions Peppertree's Christian - 9 (again, all through Gjest) The fact is that three of theses boys are related to Gjest in the first 3 generations (obviously, I have nothing against Gjest, as my Chris is a grandson). And, these stallions are all in fairly close proximity to one another. On the other hand, there are stallions out there that have had much less impact, but that are not being used, and I'm not talking about inferior animals. All the talk about doing something in the future to maintain our breed hardiness is good, but there is no excuse for being negligent now. I want to encourage everyone who has posted about genetic diversity (and anyone else who is interested) to really take a look at their breeding programs in the "big picture". Genetic diversity of the fjord breed is not just limited to a single breeding program. Thanks for the discussion, Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm www.oliviafarm.com
Re: horse domestication and genetic diversity
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Another good reference quoted in this paper is Dr. Deb Bennett's "Mammalian Species paper": http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge/mammalian/mammalian_species.html stuff! Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, sunny after fresh snow, 6-8 inches on the ground. 32 degrees! Snowman making weather! >I just ran across an article that some people may be interested in: a >genetic study of the origins of horse domestication and genetic diversity >in modern breeds. It was published in the journal Science (19 January >2001) so some of you may have already seen it. It's also on the web at >http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/Maps/index.html
horse domestication and genetic diversity
This message is from: "Katherine Carter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I just ran across an article that some people may be interested in: a genetic study of the origins of horse domestication and genetic diversity in modern breeds. It was published in the journal Science (19 January 2001) so some of you may have already seen it. It's also on the web at http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/Maps/index.html -- scroll down to "2001 articles" and click on "Widespread origins of domestic horse lineages." The authors compared both mitochondrial DNA and microsatellite DNA of 10 different modern breeds (including Norwegian Fjords), as well as samples from Pleistocene horses and archaeological excavations with horse bones. Basically, they were able to demonstrate that at the time when horses were originally domesticated (about 6,000 years ago), the innovation spread throughout the world by human groups learning about the ideas and technology of riding from other tribes, and then capturing local horses for their mounts, as opposed to acquiring horses from the originally domesticated source. This is apparently different from the case with other large domesticated animals, in which the animals themselves were traded to new tribes (rather than caught anew from local wild sources). The authors also note that modern horse breeds retain a great degree of genetic diversity within each breed, "comparable to that found in large wild ungulate populations." The article also includes a genetic similarity tree which indicates that, of the 10 breeds tested, Fjords are genetically closest to the Connemara, Gotlands, and Icelandics (no surprise there). The next-closest group, surprisingly, are the Arabs. The group farthest from the Fjords? Thoroughbreds !!! Kathy in Maine
