Re: bloodlines and top quality Fjordhorses
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- Pat, I can understand where you, as a trainer, are coming from. -- We all like pleasant, easy to work with horses, but my point is that it isn't that simple. You're absolutely right that Fjordhorses need to be pleasant, willing, and easy to work with, and should be able to be worked with by amateurs. That's a given! Everything you said in your first paragraph is a given that everyone agrees with. -- However, there's still much more than that to be considered when judging Fjords. -- I don't think the general public can just take the word of this breeder or that trainer. Not that these people would be telling untruths, but the thing is . . . Really, how much do they know? -- The breeder or trainer can only tell you about the horses they've known personally. They don't have a complete data base to work from. None of us have that, which is a shame and it could be rectified or at least, improved on some. What I'm saying is that in our breed, it would be a very good thing (as Martha says) if records could be kept so that down the line a few years, or 50 years, we would really know which stallions had CONSISTENTLY done a good job. Because that's what it's all about - consistency. What I'm saying is that a stallion has to have produced a significant number of offspring, and those offspring have to have been judged, and only then can anyone say for certain just what kind of breeding stallion that horse was. In lieu of judging (evaluations), the next best thing, or maybe it's the First Best Thing is performance records. -- This is difficult or impossible in the Fjord breed because a lot of people don't compete their horses, or if they do it's only local competitions, not rated ones. -- However, I believe that the Fjord breed in North America will greatly suffer unless the horses can be evaluated by evaluators who are absolutely qualilfied. This is how animal breeders of all kinds evaluate their stock, and make improvements, or simply hold the line, not letting the quality of a breed go down. -- Certifications, evaluations, breed judging, whatever you want to call it is also the way breed societies guard against problems that might be creeping unannounced into their breeds. -- For instance, if all of a sudden, a large part of the Fjord breed were to be evaluated in some fashion or another, and the judges began seeing certain problems. -- It could be teeth. -- It could be testicles -- It could be tipped vulvas --- It could be many different things; for instance, a noticable loss of Breed Type. --Any of these things and many more serious problems could possibly be traced back to certain bloodlines. -- Do you see what I mean? Virtual Evaluations might be very helpful here. -- Does anybody have any other ideas how more horses could be evaluated, and records kept? I can tell you that when I was buying horses in Holland, the records kept by the Dutch STudbood, were absolutely invaluable to me. I could get factual answers to almost any question, and with those answers, I could make sound business and breeding decisions. Carol, I CAN tell you who DOES determine which stallions and MARES are the good ones. And although I am a big supporter of the American Evaluation System, I believe that the true test is when the offspring goes out into the general memberships hands and willingly performs for their owners in an honest, trustworthy manner with disposition to please. ~~~ The horses you describe might be really nice horses, but willingness and disposition are not everything. -- Willingness and disposition are essential in a good Fjord, but there's much much more to it than that. -- I'm sure you agree with me about that, Pat. -- I can love to death a willing, pleasant horse, but as a breeder I can't be satisfied with just that While at the same time, I would never consider a nasty, unwilling horse to be a good one no matter how beautiful he was, how well he moved, or how athletic. What I'm saying is that breeders should be striving to obtain all the qualities the breed is famous for, and those qualities include looks, conformation, head, eyes, neck, legs, hooves, back, loins, tail, presence, movement, willingness, reproductive soundness, durability, breed type, --- The whole horse! And the horses that meet the highest standards in all those categories --- Those are the ones that are Really Good Fjords. I guess I'm just bothered when you say that the sires of Vivian's horses, Pat's horses, Beth's horses, etc., etc. -- When you say that those are the good ones. Yeah, maybe some or all of those are, but how do we know it??? We can't simply say it's so because Vivian won a lot with that horse. -- Of course, in Vivian's case, we
re: bloodlines, evaluations, etc
This message is from: bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I thought I'd better clarify what I meant in the paragraph below What I DID NOT mean is that Evaluators might be influenced by knowing who the owner or trainer of a particular stallion is. -- ... Carol That would not have been an unreasonable inference at all, apparently those who crafted the Judge's Rule Book for the NFHR did think that special interests, and/or conflict of interest, might very well be a valid consideration in a judge's qualification. Maybe we should periodically check them out? These taken from the NFHR Judge's Rule Book. CODE OF CONDUCT GOVERNING JUDGES -O- no judge may be a house guest of any exhibitor at shows they are about to judge. -O- a judge may not be an owner of ANY INTEREST in a horse at a show he/she is officiating. He/she may not be an exhibitor, rider, driver, halter handler at a show he/she is officiating. -O- a judge may not have ANY financial horse RELATED transactions such as: sale, boarding, TRAINING, or acting as an AGENT on any transaction, unless concluded 90 days prior to the show. -O- no member of the judges family, TRAINER, or TRAINER'S CLIENTS may show before said judge. -O- if a horse is presented to a judge by a person the judge knows is ineligible to compete under these rules, the judge must advise show committee and ask that the entry be excused. +++ Because we are a comparatively small breed society and often there is considerable multi-tasking by a minority, it follows that these ethical conduct guidelines are an essential mandate for fair and equal representation. Ruthie, NW MT US
Re: bloodlines, Evaluations, etc.
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia --- I thought I'd better clarify what I meant in the paragraph below What I DID NOT mean is that Evaluators might be influenced by knowing who the owner or trainer of a particular stallion is. -- What I did mean is that,( in my opinion) a stallion is perceived by the general Fjord public as being as -- illustrious/worthy/great (or not)--- as is the owner or the trainer of that particular stallion. Hope I've made myself clearer this time. I was talking about the general perception --- I was NOT talking about evaluators being influenced in any shape or form. Regards, Carol Rivoire The other problem I have with who determines which stallions are the good ones, is this --- I think that WAY TOO OFTEN, it's the owner who's being judged and not the stallion. More specifically, the owner's persona (personality). -- It has always seemed to me that if a stallion is owned by a very personable person then he's considered a terrific stallion. -- This is definitely not the way it should be done. -- Also, a stallion's quality should not be based on his performance record. --- A GELDING'S VALUE IS BASED ON HIS PERFORMANCE RECORD --- THIS I FIRMLY BELIEVE . . . . . That the ONLY way to determine the worth of a breeding stallion is by studying his offspring. It does not matter A WHIT whether or not he's a gorgeous, sweet animal that's touted by the best known breeder or trainer in the business. It doesn't matter at all how nice that stallion is or who owns or trains him . . . Nothing matters if that stallion doesn't produce offspring that are . . . . SOUND --- HEALTHY -- CONFORMATIONALLY CORRECT IN ALL RESPECTS --- THLETIC -- NORMAL SIZE (height substance) --- WILLING -- CONFIDENT --- GOOD MOVERS -- REPRODUCTIVELY SOUND -- CONFORM TO BREED TYPE --- issue number.
Re: Bloodlines that need preservation
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good thought about checking the bite of foals, however six months of age is too early to tell whether the bite will be normal or not. I have two with significant underbites, both of which had normal bites as weanlings. By the time my young gelding was a year old (he'll be two in April), his bite was off by a solid 1/2 inch. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO In a message dated 1/29/2006 12:31:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ** That's another subject, but it just occured to me that records could be kept on maloclusion of foals in exactly the same way that breeding stallions are required to submit a special form signed by a certified vet that the stallion does not have maloclusion. -- The same vet also certifies that the stallion does not have abnormal testical development. -- Why not require that before a foal is registered his teeth are examined by a vet and certified to be normal? -- I think most people register their foals around 6 months, and most people would have had at least one vet visit in six months, and the teeth exam could be done at that time. But, as I say . . . It's another subject. **
Re: Bloodlines that need preservation
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- I've been passionately interested in Fjord bloodlines for almost 30 years, so the subject of Pat Holland's posting caught my eye. I certainly agree with her that these bloodlines need preservation, but I don't think anyone need be overly concerned in this regard since all the stallions mentioned have a significant number of offspring so that there's little danger of the lines petering out. -- Hostar has 30, Solar 78, Gjest 91, Erland , and Steinfinn had 70 offspring before he was gelded. I'm wondering why he was gelded. -- There could be lots of reasons, most of them having nothing to do with his quality as a breeding stallion. -- He could have had an injury to his genitals which prohibited him from breeding -- His owners might have decided that, afterall, they didn't like what he was producing. -- Or, perhaps his owners were fairly satisfied with his offspring, but had a chance to acquire a much better stallion. -- There are lots of possible reasons, but you see what I mean . . . . This stallion has produced 70 offspring in North America . . . a significant number. -- Then he was gelded -- Breeders need to know the reason y. --- In Europe, the information would be public knowledge. -- I know of approved Fjord breeding stallions in Holland that were removed for various reasons from the Stallion Roster. -- One stallion, I believe his name was Bjorlo, was a beauty, and produced very good offspring, but didn't have the libido or sperm volume needed in the Studbook situation. The Studbook stallion, Astrix, has serviced over 100 mares per season, and that's the kind of fertility the Dutch Studbook wants to preserve in their bloodlines. -- You could argue that the beautiful stallion, Bjorlo, who could only service 30 - 40 mares a year should be kept in the breeding business. But, the Dutch are very serious about maintaining all the famous Fjord Strengths, and one of these Strengths is REPRODUCTIVE SOUNDNESS for both mares and stallions. On the mares' part, a mare who produces six foals in seven breeding seasons is eligible to become a Keur Mare. -- This is a high level of certification, and right away shows that Reproductive Soundness is high priority to the Dutch Studbook's governing body. Another Studbook Stallion was removed (gelded) because after he'd sired a certain number of offspring, it was noticed through the weanling Keurings (Evaluations) that a certain number of those weanlings showed an imperfect positioning of the teeth when the jaws are closed (maloclusion). -- This, of course, is something that is inherited, and might never be recognized if the young offspring are not evaluated. ** That's another subject, but it just occured to me that records could be kept on maloclusion of foals in exactly the same way that breeding stallions are required to submit a special form signed by a certified vet that the stallion does not have maloclusion. -- The same vet also certifies that the stallion does not have abnormal testical development. -- Why not require that before a foal is registered his teeth are examined by a vet and certified to be normal? -- I think most people register their foals around 6 months, and most people would have had at least one vet visit in six months, and the teeth exam could be done at that time. But, as I say . . . It's another subject. ** BACK TO PAT'S EMAIL ABOUT THE NEED TO PRESERVE FAMOUS BLOODLINES -- Of course, I agree with her, but I have a couple of niggling problems in this regard . . . . First of all, I have a problem about who determines which stallions are the good ones? -- This is really a serious concern for us in North merica. -- Is it the Evaluation Program that determines everything? -- The Evals. do provide good information, but hopefully Fjord people will realize they are not the be all and end all - mostly because many good stallions are never taken to Evaluations. -- This is one of Ruthie Bushnell's good arguments in favor of preserving genetic diversity. The other problem I have with who determines which stallions are the good ones, is this --- I think that WAY TOO OFTEN, it's the owner who's being judged and not the stallion. More specifically, the owner's persona (personality). -- It has always seemed to me that if a stallion is owned by a very personable person then he's considered a terrific stallion. -- This is definitely not the way it should be done. -- Also, a stallion's quality should not be based on his performance record. --- A GELDING'S VALUE IS BASED ON HIS PERFORMANCE RECORD --- THIS I FIRMLY BELIEVE . . . . . That the ONLY way to determine the worth of a breeding stallion is by studying his offspring.
Re: bloodlines
This message is from: briar hill farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am a bloodline addictand I have been fortunate to have worked personally with several lines. I love watching blood lines, too, Pat. Having bred and trained Fjords for 20 years I have a good sense of certain traits in Fjord blood lines. Over the years, you can see certain characteristics repeat them selves when you have worked with several offspring of particular lines. You talk about the old stallions. You shouldn't forget Ring. What a pleasure to work with his offspring. Always good solid workers. I think Ring is well into his twenties and not breeding anymore. I miss Eggeprins, one of the early imported stallions. I would run, not walk for an Eggeprins get. What fabulous minds and what a pleasure to work with and a joy to train. I'm a great fan of the MVF Hegdal offspring. He's over 20. He consistently produces very good dressage movement with calm, quiet, co operative minds. I disagree that Hostar is the only Brusvein offspring. Maybe you meant the only stallion. There were Freya and Elda, owned by Cece Henderson, I have an Elda daughter, Bella, a great performing Fjord in dressage and a talented jumper like her grandsire, Hostar.. Marcy Briar Hill Farm www.briarhillfarm.com
Re: Bloodlines
This message is from: Don Brackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wow, how did they find their way to Texas? I bought Osa from Landen Hall. He owns Reinard and has for at least 12 years. They did live in Maine but have moved to N. Carolina recently. Landen also owns a nice white dun mare out of Nina by Modellen, she must be in her mid teens by now. I know of at least one gelding that is a full brother to my mare, red dun (9 years old), and at least one out of Osa's half sister(the white dun mare) by Reinard, but don't know where they are. Landen registered his horses with the first registry (can't remember it's name, just merged with NFHR) and when the organization was having problems, he ended up not registering them. Osa isn't registered. Glad to hear that Loki and Zeus are good boys. Their half sister is great, affectionate, kind mare with plenty of get up and go. Very steady and calm on trail. She does extremely well for me and is quite the character. She has a mind of her own and is not afraid to voice her opinion but can be persuaded to go my way. So there might be quiet a few Reinard babies around. Jane M. Denmark wrote: This message is from: M. Denmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] I now have five fantastic Fjords down here in Texas. Two are full brothers, Loki III and Zeus, sired by Reinard. Loki is a very hard working and gorgeous big boy with lots of stripes on his legs. He drives single and double (4-in-hand in the future I hope) and is doing dressage with his trainer. Zeus (just 3 1/2 yo)just came back from some months with the driving trainer, Drew Callahan (he's just wonderful and kind with the horses and so talented) and is really doing well to still be so young. These are smart and sane Fjords. But we've found they really have to bond with their owners to do their best. They do have a strong will but we heard that came from their mom's side. We are surprised that they have any siblings as none show on the registry that I've seen. I know that Norman doesn't own Reinard anymore. He told me that Reinard's sire, HJALMAR 103-A, was the model for the current NFHR logo. I'd love to share some pictures. And yes Fjords do quite well down here in Texas--The heat doesn't even help melt any of the pony fat off. Milli Ann Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:41:21 -0700 From: Don Brackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Bloodlines This message is from: Don Brackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone else have a Fjord with these lines? Osa is out of http://www.nfhr.com/ponyweb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=286HorseName=ninaPage=1Sort =0 by http://www.nfhr.com/ponyweb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=100328HorseName=reinardPage= 1Sort=0 She's been just a wonderful mare. Jane
RE: Bloodlines
This message is from: Cynthia Madden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just can't help myself in replying to Beth's first comments about Starfire Arend and his mother, Maerta. I now own Starfire Chiron out of Obelisk and Sophie. I think Beth Sandy put a lot of thought into not only their stallion, but the mare they breed him to. Chiron (or Teddy as he is called here) is only 16 months old but has such personality. We just left him by himself for the first time a few weeks ago and went for a drive with Tank and Nigel. Teddy just went down to his corner where his next door buddy lives and stayed with him until we came back - no screaming or hysterics. He continues to do this when we leave. I find it amazing in a young horse. He is so brave and a jokester too. He learns well but not without some testing. He has is Dad's movement and I believe he will have his looks. I bought him because of the breeding program he came from. It is a always a gamble buying a young horse but I trust in his breeding to be what I think he can be and what I want him t! o be when he grows up. Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/cmadden88011 Zia Carriage Driving Club: http://www.geocities.com/zcdc_nm
Re: bloodlines
This message is from: Carol Riviore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia where we're having a wild nor'easter. Ruthie, Thanks for posting the dog breeding site again. I'd missed it before. -- Just read some of it . . . and it definitely gives 'food for thought'. -- Very interesting the part encouraging breeders to think of the breed as a whole when breeding, and not only the result of that particular mating. -- You definitely have something there in your concern for a narrowing of the gene pool. -- However, how is a breeder to address this situation given the perennial problems of distance and lack of information on bloodlines. Over the years on this List, I've talked a lot about the European Fjord Studbooks. -- How, with their system of Studbook ownership of the stallions, and precise tracking of the quality of the mares bred and offspring produced, they are able to deterimine how each of the Approved Stallions are doing. --- I'm most familiar with the workings of the Dutch Studbook, and from my years of association, I know of certain stallions that have been eliminated from the Dutch breeding system because of various weaknesses. Weaknesses such as - a stallion with low fertility. . . a stallion that produced poor bites in too many of his offspring . . . a stallion who produced poor legs, feet, etc. The Dutch take great care to keep diversity in their Fjord gene pool. They do this by running the breeding program themselves. -- They place approved stallions in areas around the country, and move them every three years. -- Most people breed to the stallion in their area. They do this for economic reasons mostly. --- This prevents people from breeding for specific things, sometimes to the detriment of other qualities; such as, breeding for pretty heads, spectacular movement, height . . . whatever. Unfortunately, it's probably not possible for such a system to operate in North America, BUT, the very least our Registry should do is study the reasons behind the Dutch system . . . or the Norwegian system. -- Study what the goals are. -- Study what they're trying to prevent by such a system. ~ I'm super interested in bloodlines, and would love a system that would track different qualities. And this could be done on a limited basis, even with the relatively few horses that have been evaluated. There's one stallion that interests me. We've had a few of his offspring here, all out of different mares, and they do not have typical Fjord temperaments and attitudes. However, a few does not a reliable study make. -- Maybe it was just perverse luck that the few we've had were not typical. Bob van Bon, Chief Inspector of Fjords for the Dutch Studbook, has always said that they measure the character and attitude (temperament) of a horse through the performance tests. -- They NEVER do it when the stallion is presented in hand, no matter how badly he acts up. -- The Dutch Performance Tests (IBOP) are designed to measure character and attitude, among other things. This is for all three of their tests - The Riding Test, The Driving Test, and the Agricultural Test. -- For instance, in the Agricultural Test, the pulling part, the horse is assessed as to how he does the pull. Is he eager and willing, or does he have to be coerced into pulling? -- Same thing for the riding and driving tests. How willing and eager is the horse in his work? -- Also other things, such as -- Does he stand still? Does he stand quietly to be hitched? These tests prove what kind of horse it is. -- ~~~ The Danish stallion, Rei-Halsnaes has been mentioned several times here. I was amazed that Patti Jo mentioned their pretty heads. -- Yes, now that she's mentioned it, I guess most of them do have pretty heads, but to me, the most outstanding quality of this line is they're wonderful movers. As to a lot of energy, that I've never remarked on. -- I mean, they have normal, sufficient energy, but not in the least high strung or anything. Not the ones I know of anyway. In any case, this all points out that none of us have seen enough horses by different bloodlines to make reliable judgements. -- The exception, of course, are the breeders owning stallions who have produced a lot of offspring. -- I'd say a stallion would have to have produced at least 30 foals to make any kind of judgement. -- This is really a miniscule number, but I suppose you get some idea with 30 foals. ~ Our stallion, Gjest, has produced hundreds and hundreds of offspring in Norway, Holland, and with us. -- We know what he produces. It's very well documented. -- Big bodies, big bone, big movement, and an excellent work ethic. Anyway, it is a really interesting subject, and I hope many
RE: Bloodlines
This message is from: Elizabeth German [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am the proud, excited and humbled owner of Starfire Arend, the horse Beth Beymer of Starfire Farm mentioned in her post about bloodlines. He's my first fjord and will soon join my family of a retired Thoroughbred, a retired Appaloosa, a nearly retired Appaloosa, and a 19 yr old 16'3 hh Hanoverian I'm learning dressage with. It'll be quite the menagerie! I'm so excited, I can't stand it. I hadn't planned on buying another horse, but after having a wonderful time at fjord fun day in October 2003, I went to the pasture to say goodbye to the brat pack -- the two year olds at Starfire. Arend came up to me and I burst into tears, feeling I could not leave him. Thus began my journey into the wonderful world of fjords! While I'm sure she right that his bloodlines deserve credit for his abilities, I have to say that Beth's training (and Sandy's care and support) deserve at least as much credit as his genes for his performance and temperament. Beth is a truly amazing trainer! Aside from teaching Arend the correct technical things, she has fostered his natural trust and curiosity, praised and rewarded his willingness from the moment he was born -- allowing him to do perform the way his genes intended him to! I hope I can do him justice but I know he is a trusting soul who will forgive my mistakes and that we will have a lifetime of fun together. Despite the 500 mile distance between his new home and Starfire, we will continue to work with Beth as often as possible so that she can keep us from straying too far from the path she and Sandy began. The genes are just the beginning! Beth German New Mexico [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (fjordhorse-digest) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 1/20/2005 10:40:48 AM Subject: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #17 fjordhorse-digest Thursday, January 20 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 017 In this issue: Large Animal Vets RE: Shedding Re: shedding, blankets and winter Re: PNFPG Show contact needed Re: Large Animal Vets bloodliines Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #16 Re: Large Animal Vets Re: bloodliines Re: Myriam photo Loki bloodlines and behavior NFHR website RE: insurance RE: bloodlines and behavior More snow humor and no vet Translations and bloodlines Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #16 Re: NFHR website address Re: NFHR website Re: bloodlines and behavior Re: stallion prevalence Marathon cart for sale Re: stallion prevalence See the end of the digest for information on how to retrieve back issues. -- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:29:00 -0600 From: dfle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Large Animal Vets This message is from: dfle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm very fortunate--we have a large animal vet just 10 miles away. He will deal with most things for the horses and cows and does make farm calls even when I call after hours and get him out of bed. However, the idea that women don't go into large animals is not true. I am also very fortunate because we are about 30 minutes from the Missouri Landgrant University which has a veterinary teaching hospital. They have two mobile equine units that make farm calls and you can take an emergency in at any hour--24 hour care for serious problems. All of the vets on the mobile unit (young trainees and the experienced veterinarians) are all women. They do a wonderful job with horses. The main mobile unit is a woman vet who is probably the best veterinarian I have ever met. She dealt with an abscess on a horse that a vet at the last place I lived had a hard time with. She handled her with no problem and was training a young student with her. The vet school is a bit expensive, but my husband thinks it's better to be contributing to students' education than paying for an individual veterinary's house or whatever. I'm blessed to say the least. And I also have a great farrier who was for a time at the vet school and then went out on his own. I wouldn't trade him for anything. My horses love him. Anyway, there are women out there doing a great job in large animals probably trained right here in Missouri. Rosemary Sent via the WebMail system at cmnt1.c-magic.com -- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:00:54 -0800 (PST) From: Cynthia Madden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Shedding This message is from: Cynthia Madden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tank starts getting his winter coat in August and starts his first shed in January - Omaha or Las Cruces. Daylight must have more to do with it than temperature. Teddy Nigel started shedding at the same time. Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal Web Site
RE: bloodlines
This message is from: Carole Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patti, I agree completely. The list is great. So friendly and informative. I really look forward to everyone's postings. The key to winter sanity while we are all cooped up and not able to have as much horse fun. I was in Appleton WI in November picking up a new fire truck. WI a nice state. I am in Northern WV. I complain about the weather but it is much better than what most of the list has to deal with. It is 20ish today. ICY roads last night and a big snow on its way on Saturday. I wish I was a Fjord person and hope to be some day. Right now I am enjoying training two young Haflingers. Another great breed. Let's hear it for the draft ponies! I hope to introduce Fjords to this immediate area because the only entries in the draft pony classes in the local shows last year were Haflingers. I see one of the list members drives Haflingers and Fjords together. I would love to hear more about that. Anyway, if I am ever lucky enough to get my career back on track and buy my Fjord (I already have one picked out so keep your fingers crossed), I might have a better idea of what to expect thanks to the good folks on this list! Can't beat the general horse care and training info either. Shedding. I got a little nervous last week when the temps went close to seventy. Since to tulips and daffodils were trying to come up, I was afraid the horses would start to shed too soon. No, the little gingersnap ponies are hanging on to their hair. Happy training news. Easter, two y/o Haflinger let me lean all over her back and I jumped up a couple of times with my hands on her back. She side stepped a little but nothing silly. My dream is to have her ground driving by April and some mild saddle work by summer. Thanks good Fjord list people! Carole in Northern WV Carole -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave and Patti Walter Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 1:46 PM To: fjord horse Subject: bloodlines This message is from: Dave and Patti Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well I guess I'm really glad I was so bored the other day and wrote in to the list, the conversation has been wonderful, I only wish we could ALL be in a living room sipping tea or cocoa.(Remember I live in Wi, it's cold her) Say, TRY and come to the MWFHC's Winter meeting in Feb. in MN and we can talk some more about this conversation and others!! It is the BEST part of the weekend, just being with other Fjord people and talking Fjordies! I totally agree with Phil and others that the NFHR is a WONDERFUL tool. I thank Wayne and the board members and all who volunteer at the evaluations, it's a great assest to the breeders and the buyers and just to our bred in general. BIG THANK YOU. Beth, Silas has been my biggest challenge but also the easiest. In regards to forwardness, lightness in the seat and legs and ENERGY. I love that in a Fjord. BUT , that is me. I get a little bored with the too quiet ones. :-)) Arend sounds a lot like Silas, they are s intune and smart. In one, ok several, of our jumping classes last year, I totally forgot to even THINK about asking Silas for the correct lead. You know that boy came off EVERY SINGLE line on the correct lead, he KNOWS which one to take. A very high level trainer once said, under 3ft leave them alone, they should KNOW which one to take. Maybe I'm subconsciously thinking that to be nice to Silas. Ok, truth be know, I just get nervous and go brain dead. I usually think about it about 3-4 strides later!!! Patti Jo Walter Francis Creek Fjords Two Rivers WI -getting dumped on today, lake effect, the one inch is turning in to SEVERAL, more on the way tomorrow, YES, love it when it snows!!!
Re: bloodlines and behavior
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: janet [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would wager the mare actually has more than 50% of the influence on the foal. She spends nearly 6 months rearing the foal, and it has been said, that a mare that allows the baby to push her around often produces foals that are head strong vs the mare that disciplins her baby. But since one stallion produces many babies a year vs one per year for the mare, following stallion lines is going to be more productive. Janet Hi folks, I have really been enjoying this thread - a lot of food for thought. Jane Smiley's book, A Year at the Races, is a very interesting look at the personality, ability, and interaction with humans of horses. She breeds thoroughbreds and some go the track. She not only analyzes their dam and sire but also talks about those early influences of the foal and his/her mother and other horses early on and how some events or situations trump breeding and influence the horse for life. Of course owner handling and early training also greatly influence a horse's future life. This is a fun and informative book to read but she does have an animal psychic that she often confers with, so you have to accept psychics or ignore it if you don't believe. When I sold my Hanoverian, Glory, a breeder called me looking for a new breeding mare to replace one of hers that had just died. Mine had the same sire as hers had and that was what she was looking for. It was errie how she described her mare and how almost every behavioral trait was the same as mine. When I talked to this breeder, I started to understand Glory's behavior much better and how my trainer at the time was taking the wrong approach with her. It seemed that this whole line of mares had similar personalities which the breeder loved. For me, Glory was too much, but the breeder just loved them. These mares definately passed on strong traits but they could be linked back to their common sire. Unfortunately, the sire back two generations on the dam's side, passed on crooked front legs. Many of his descendents went on to become great jumpers anyway but my mare's crookedness caused her pain and unsoundness. Genie Dethloff in Ann Arbor, MI
RE: bloodlines and behavior
This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a REi Halsnaes grandson who looks at things the same way an Arab does. He is also energetic, though the work ethic is not fantastic (could be from being a stud and adult before receiving any real training). He does not spook and bolt, but sure looks, unlike any of my other Fjords. I have a Fjord that spooks and bolts, but from unseen things. Does not look at stuff. I have heard his bloodlines have other horses like him. Gail
Re: bloodlines and photographies
This message is from: Ed Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Myriam and Audrey, I found all but three of the horses you are looking for in a book by Mr. Bob van Bon, the Chief Inspector of the Dutch Studbook. The title of the book is Van Vestlandhest tot Fjordenpaard, and I believe it can be ordered through the Dutch Studbook's website. As for translation, there's a wonderful horsemen's language dictionary out there, does anyone have a source for it? We got ours through Equestrian's Edge book club, but when I went to reorder it, they no longer had the title. Alas, Norwegian was not one of the languages offered. German, French, English, and Spanish, I think. Bonne chance! Ann in Connecticut USA - Original Message - From: Myriam/Ptite_marmotte Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:47 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: bloodlines and photographies This message is from: Myriam/Ptite_marmotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, We are two frenchs owners of norwegian fjord horses and we do research about their origins and bloodlines of the modern ford horse, a subject whcich is a passion for us.
Re: Input re: Bloodlines
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p.s. Oh, and Dorina is around 20 years old and doesn't look or act a day over 6 except the cute little wrinkles around her muzzle! =) ~ Meredith Sessoms ~
Re: Input re: Bloodlines
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/23/04 6:25:59 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This message is from: mhd/gcc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I'm considering a 5-year old gelding by Hostar, out of a mare by Holunder. Any information regarding offspring by/out of these lines would be appreciated, particularly regarding temperament, athletic abilities. My mare, Dorina, is a brown dun, imported Holunder daughter with good markings. She is a wonderful old girl. She is boss of her tiny herd and is often on watch and always puts her head in the water trough only after having looked both ways for danger. Her build is drafty and her head is a bit heavy, but her face is loaded with character and her ears are perfect and she has huge, lovely, dark, eyes that reflect her wisdom. She is a feisty ride, sometimes a bit strong for me, but then, I don't ride as often as I should. I have never regretted buying her for a second. She was an excellent brood mare for Skoal Farms having given them 6 healthy foals with no problems. She also worked for Skoal, pulling their guests from the inn to the restaurant for many years. They adored her as much as I do. If the fellow you are considering is anything like my Dorina, he will be a fine horse. ~ Meredith Sessoms ~ Dorina, NFR Aagot and little Anjee
Re: Bloodlines
This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 06:06 AM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: Dave McWethy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Along with the posts on stallions, I want to note the mare Nora N12232, who was the mother of Gjestarson. Phil Prichard sold her to us at age 26 for $500 for her retirement home. She was with us til 32. She was imported early and belonged to a retired admiral in Blairstown NJ. She had many very nice offspring. I never saw one that wasn't a standout. I was told she last foaled at age 25. Nora served us magnificently as the horse to put any child on, and she was just a sweet old girl. I show that she was born in 1960 and died in 1990 Dave. I only show 3 offspring for her but she was registered in the Assn too so there could be more there. Tom Hans owns one of them - Mari CAB-Q-082-M she is a 1977 foal. Here is Nora's pedigree: NORA N-12232 2018-A N-60-137-M Foaled January 1, 1960 Bred by KARESTEIN KROGSAETER, VATNE DYRE N-1059 DRAUM N-1308 MONA N-4811 ROTFAST N-1540 VESTRERUGGEN N-1049 EDEL II N-9148 EDEL N-2069 ORSTINGEN N-1148 OLVE N-1384 G-F(He)41 VONA N-6523 FRIDA N-12345 RAUM N-1227 JORUN N-10211 NORMA N-8593
Re: Bloodlines/First Glimpse
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Teressa Kandianis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also I see pedigrees with the dam listed as Purdy mare. From the bloodline discussion, it seems evident that the Purdy's were breeders at one time. Can anyone relate that story? The short version is that circa 1965, Robert Purdy (28 Ranch, Buffalo, Wyoming) acquired several Fjords that had been imported from Norway in the late 50's and early 60's. He bred Fjords until about 1974. After his death, his herd was dispersed without adequate documentation. (No Fjord registries existed in the US until the late 70's.) In some cases, owners had hand-written pedigrees, or word-of-mouth ones; in other cases, there were conflicting stories, or reconstructed guess-timates of ages and pedigrees. So, there were lots of what everyone agreed were pure Fjords out there whose pedigrees were well, Purdy bred her, and I'm pretty sure Solvfast was her father, but we're not sure which mare dropped that filly. Hence the notation, dam unknown (Purdy mare). My good gelding, Sleepy, has a pedigree that looks like swiss cheese---in 3 places, whole branches of his family tree disappear into Purdy mare holes. OTOH, my husband's gelding, Squirrel Brain, has a perfectly-documented pedigree with several big-name Norwegian stallions in it. IMHO, this just proves that, in a using horse, the important piece of paper is the resume, not the pedigree Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 30 mi SSE of San Francisco, Calif. ---
Re: Bloodlines/First Glimpse
This message is from: Denise Delgado [EMAIL PROTECTED] dear list, sounds odd, but when i read the first line of teressa's note about her first sighting of fjords driving to seattle for suchi, i pictured two chunky fjords in a two tone turquoise fifty's chevy, windows opens and manes blowing, black hooves on the steering wheel, heading to the ciry to grab a bite. funny what images come to mind. denise
Re: Bloodlines/First Glimpse
This message is from: Denise Delgado [EMAIL PROTECTED] oops! it was vancouver!!! denise
Re: Bloodlines/First Glimpse
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 12:35 PM 10/29/99 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: Teressa Kandianis [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was also wondering if Gjestar 1560 is the same as King Gjestar - if not, is there any relationship. No they are not the same horse. Gjestar n-1560 is King Gjestar's Grandsire. here is King's pedigree: KING GJESTAR 126-A GB-O-208-S Foaled May 26, 1975 Bred by GENE BAUER, ROUND LAKE, IL KLEPPAR N-1462 GJESTAR N-1560 C-3 MOLLA N-9553 GJESTARSON 102-A ROTFAST N-1540 N-60-137-M NORA N-12232 2018-A FRIDA N-12345 SOLVFAST N-1557 KING HARALD 101-A LIV N-12081 SEVERINA 2007-A SANKO N-1522 DAGMAR 2002-A OSLO MISS #3 AFS Also I see pedigrees with the dam listed as Purdy mare. From the bloodline discussion, it seems evident that the Purdy's were breeders at one time. Can anyone relate that story? The Purdy's were breeders at one time for sure. I am afraid I don't know enough about it to give the story though. I'd also be interested in Woodland's Dustin's pedigree - he is such a beautiful animal and seems to have so many different skills. Here is Dusty's pedigree: WOODLAND'S DUSTIN C-401 WW-Z-079-S Foaled June 2, 1986 Bred by EUGENE R. CRANDALL, BELLINGHAM, WA FELDER N-1707 PLUTO N-1831 VIGDIS N-13367 ANVIL'S PLUTO C-173 N-V-080-S HOSAR N-1717 KARI N-14157 C-119 MOLLY f.1964 STOLMANN N-1588 D-462 C-1 PER C-7 157-A TOSEN D-4553 C-2 CLOUDY C-30 ABN-O-158-M SULDRUP HEID D-329 E67 RITA D-4750 C-3 LENE D-4224 === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bloodlines, stallions, and mares
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:51 PM 2/19/99 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all! Here comes another of those NOVICE questions. How can there be too many stallions? I can understand the desire to avoid.what does Arthur and Carol call thembackyard stallions? However, if we are discussing good quality stallions, with positive showings, evaluations, etc., I am afraid I do not yet see the problem. Well you have actually hit it on the head. There are not too many good quality stallions. Just to many so so stallions. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bloodlines, stallions, and mares
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all! Here comes another of those NOVICE questions. How can there be too many stallions? I can understand the desire to avoid.what does Arthur and Carol call thembackyard stallions? However, if we are discussing good quality stallions, with positive showings, evaluations, etc., I am afraid I do not yet see the problem. From the pedigrees I have seen, sires are often times repeated. If there were more quality stallions for breeding, I would think this would slowly change. Eventually we would begin to see pedigrees without repeat names. Is this not the actual goal for the future of the Fjord horse? Lynda, temporarily from Texas
Re: Bloodlines, stallions, and mares
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:54 AM 2/19/99 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think in North America we will see far more problems in the future of the breed resulting from too many stallions rather than too many geldings. Here, with no process of stallion approval there will always be plenty of stallions with both temperament and/or conformation problems to choose from. Exactly the problem I see from here too Steve. Since the Fjord stallion is a rather easy stallion to keep compared with some other breeds people tend to keep stallions in tact just for convenience sake. From looking over the stallion breeding reports filed each year I would say that every one of the NFHR registered stallions is under used. Especially if you compare them to the use Carol says they get in Holland. There isn't a stallion breeding report filed that has more than 18-20 mares covered on it. Most have 2-3 actually. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bloodlines, stallions, and mares
This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda-- Thursday, February 18, 1999, you wrote: My question is simple; is this actually what is desired? It sounds as if any stallion shows any undesirable behavior, he is gelded. However, this undesirable behavior has certainly not been explored and from my position, it appears that if these horses show any high-spiritness, any proudness, any trainable problems concerning handling, they are simply gelded as this avenue is certainly easier. I think in North America we will see far more problems in the future of the breed resulting from too many stallions rather than too many geldings. Here, with no process of stallion approval there will always be plenty of stallions with both temperament and/or conformation problems to choose from. -- Steve McIlree Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk...the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes. --William Shakespeare(1564-1616)
