[Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Hopefully, Flash will live on in AIR... http://labs.visual-analytics.net/?p=543 Internet 2 is the Internet of (mostly mobile) Applications. So IOS ist the next Internet “Browser”. As Flash was blasted as being the problem the reality that HTML is the technology of the old WWW was overseen. HTML for instance, as an interface, is not evolving as fast as the rest of the internet. So companies like Apple realize this and are trying to circumvent the WC3 while promoting it heavily and lambasting Flash. Its an excellent strategy, and its dishonest. So the HTML5 strategy will probably show up to be the wrong option! We’re seeing the rise of Internet 2.0. Everyone really believed it was the internet that was physically going to change and our bandwidth increases but what really happened is that the website model turned into the application model. Now more of the processing power can be handled by the devices lending to a better user experience. For awhile the fight was HTML vs. Flash. Who was going to be the future of internet? And then Apple stepped in and made the announcement that they couldn’t see Flash in their mobile future. And since they’re the leader in the technology market it does seem like Apple killed Flash. But they haven’t. They just pushed Flash into what they see as the future of their devices. John ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
HTML5 is finally on the downslide of the gartner hype cycle's peak of inflated expectations. So it makes sense that people are starting to pronounce it's death. Mark Zuckerberg has caught on with his comments about native apps vs. HTML5 from last week too. HTML always had a place, and probably will until another document spec supersedes it. I wouldn't bet the future of my company on it though. I wrote about this a while ago: http://www.unfocus.com/2011/11/09/flash-and-air-nothing-but-opportunity/ The market is splitting, and that's great. Both are growing, one is just growing faster. BTW, FaceBook's whole play was making apps out of web apps, and providing ways for app makers to monetize those apps while FB gets a tax - that's why Facebook is in scramble mode, they are trying to compete for attention against far more rapid growth from device apps, which also happen to take a far larger tax. Its not a short term problem because the desktop/laptop install base is so large (same for Flash gaming), but they will hit a wall at some point, and that's what their horrible stock numbers are about. Kevin N. P.S. I wrote that before I witnessed the horrible PR nightmare that Adobe created (and still hasn't addressed). I have less confidence in Adobe as a company than I did when I wrote that. On the technology, I still think Flash is well positioned to be a killer multi-platform app toolkit. I just can't say I believe Adobe will be able to execute well enough to capitalize on it. I think they're leadership is too busy chasing the fads of Wall Street, rather than generating their own as any technology company must. The Adobe evangelists have caught a terminal case of pragmatism too. Since when is technology about pragmatism? Pft. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
That article is very interesting Kevin. I will chew on it a bit more tomorrow, after work. One thing that Apple issue seemed to miss was that any significant download of pixels, no matter what the delivery language, is going to use a similar amount of battery life. So it really had little to do with Flash. More to do with control of the market. I have written most of my software in C++ and I love Visual Studio 2010 but for shear ease of use, and with great results, I think Flash and Air are brilliant and I will be using them to do my next few pieces of work. John On 17/09/2012 18:51, Kevin Newman wrote: HTML5 is finally on the downslide of the gartner hype cycle's peak of inflated expectations. So it makes sense that people are starting to pronounce it's death. Mark Zuckerberg has caught on with his comments about native apps vs. HTML5 from last week too. HTML always had a place, and probably will until another document spec supersedes it. I wouldn't bet the future of my company on it though. I wrote about this a while ago: http://www.unfocus.com/2011/11/09/flash-and-air-nothing-but-opportunity/ The market is splitting, and that's great. Both are growing, one is just growing faster. BTW, FaceBook's whole play was making apps out of web apps, and providing ways for app makers to monetize those apps while FB gets a tax - that's why Facebook is in scramble mode, they are trying to compete for attention against far more rapid growth from device apps, which also happen to take a far larger tax. Its not a short term problem because the desktop/laptop install base is so large (same for Flash gaming), but they will hit a wall at some point, and that's what their horrible stock numbers are about. Kevin N. P.S. I wrote that before I witnessed the horrible PR nightmare that Adobe created (and still hasn't addressed). I have less confidence in Adobe as a company than I did when I wrote that. On the technology, I still think Flash is well positioned to be a killer multi-platform app toolkit. I just can't say I believe Adobe will be able to execute well enough to capitalize on it. I think they're leadership is too busy chasing the fads of Wall Street, rather than generating their own as any technology company must. The Adobe evangelists have caught a terminal case of pragmatism too. Since when is technology about pragmatism? Pft. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
John McCormack skriver: One thing that Apple issue seemed to miss was that any significant download of pixels, no matter what the delivery language, is going to use a similar amount of battery life. So it really had little to do with Flash. More to do with control of the market. I beg to differ. Flash with the vector graphics is quite relevant since vector graphics can vastly reduce the transfer size for the art. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
From an eLearning perspective, anyone dealing with a browser-based LMS will need to start planning for HTML5/JS/CSS unless something new comes out that that is not currently on the radar. gregb -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of John McCormack Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 3:05 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on. That article is very interesting Kevin. I will chew on it a bit more tomorrow, after work. One thing that Apple issue seemed to miss was that any significant download of pixels, no matter what the delivery language, is going to use a similar amount of battery life. So it really had little to do with Flash. More to do with control of the market. I have written most of my software in C++ and I love Visual Studio 2010 but for shear ease of use, and with great results, I think Flash and Air are brilliant and I will be using them to do my next few pieces of work. John On 17/09/2012 18:51, Kevin Newman wrote: HTML5 is finally on the downslide of the gartner hype cycle's peak of inflated expectations. So it makes sense that people are starting to pronounce it's death. Mark Zuckerberg has caught on with his comments about native apps vs. HTML5 from last week too. HTML always had a place, and probably will until another document spec supersedes it. I wouldn't bet the future of my company on it though. I wrote about this a while ago: http://www.unfocus.com/2011/11/09/flash-and-air-nothing-but-opportunit y/ The market is splitting, and that's great. Both are growing, one is just growing faster. BTW, FaceBook's whole play was making apps out of web apps, and providing ways for app makers to monetize those apps while FB gets a tax - that's why Facebook is in scramble mode, they are trying to compete for attention against far more rapid growth from device apps, which also happen to take a far larger tax. Its not a short term problem because the desktop/laptop install base is so large (same for Flash gaming), but they will hit a wall at some point, and that's what their horrible stock numbers are about. Kevin N. P.S. I wrote that before I witnessed the horrible PR nightmare that Adobe created (and still hasn't addressed). I have less confidence in Adobe as a company than I did when I wrote that. On the technology, I still think Flash is well positioned to be a killer multi-platform app toolkit. I just can't say I believe Adobe will be able to execute well enough to capitalize on it. I think they're leadership is too busy chasing the fads of Wall Street, rather than generating their own as any technology company must. The Adobe evangelists have caught a terminal case of pragmatism too. Since when is technology about pragmatism? Pft. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Of static art and of limiting complexity. The moment complex vectors are used, the data requirements balloon and once motion is taken into consideration (data for per-control point manipulation) the argument is far out the window. Either way, it's a moot argument. -j On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Henrik Andersson wrote: John McCormack skriver: One thing that Apple issue seemed to miss was that any significant download of pixels, no matter what the delivery language, is going to use a similar amount of battery life. So it really had little to do with Flash. More to do with control of the market. I beg to differ. Flash with the vector graphics is quite relevant since vector graphics can vastly reduce the transfer size for the art. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
i think battery life is paramount to data consumption in mobile, and the bits saved by vector formats have a very high cost in cpu cycles. this is why AIR for iOS tends towards starling / spritesheet methodologies. On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: John McCormack skriver: One thing that Apple issue seemed to miss was that any significant download of pixels, no matter what the delivery language, is going to use a similar amount of battery life. So it really had little to do with Flash. More to do with control of the market. I beg to differ. Flash with the vector graphics is quite relevant since vector graphics can vastly reduce the transfer size for the art. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Jon Bradley skriver: Of static art and of limiting complexity. The moment complex vectors are used, the data requirements balloon and once motion is taken into consideration (data for per-control point manipulation) the argument is far out the window. Either way, it's a moot argument. Do you know of any studies about this? Because it would be interesting to see just how vector animation compares to traditional content. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/optimizing-mobile-performance.html On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: Jon Bradley skriver: Of static art and of limiting complexity. The moment complex vectors are used, the data requirements balloon and once motion is taken into consideration (data for per-control point manipulation) the argument is far out the window. Either way, it's a moot argument. Do you know of any studies about this? Because it would be interesting to see just how vector animation compares to traditional content. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
It's just the mathematics of how vectors are managed and calculated (on CPU). There really is no comparison - vector graphics are convenient, not performant. It's quite easy to look up online - or imagine watching your favorite movie on the big screen and it being all vector (it would never even run). -j On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: Jon Bradley skriver: Of static art and of limiting complexity. The moment complex vectors are used, the data requirements balloon and once motion is taken into consideration (data for per-control point manipulation) the argument is far out the window. Either way, it's a moot argument. Do you know of any studies about this? Because it would be interesting to see just how vector animation compares to traditional content. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Ross P. Sclafani skriver: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/optimizing-mobile-performance.html That discusses runtime performance, not how big the data is. And it does not provide any concrete research results. Just unscientific individual observations. I want concrete numbers that discuss how vector graphics impact the size of the animation. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Just look up the storage and memory needs of a vector point (plus it's animation) and compare that to an RGB triplet. It's pretty easy to find what you are looking for. -j On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: Ross P. Sclafani skriver: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/optimizing-mobile-performance.html That discusses runtime performance, not how big the data is. And it does not provide any concrete research results. Just unscientific individual observations. I want concrete numbers that discuss how vector graphics impact the size of the animation. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
On 17/09/2012 22:10, Jon Bradley wrote: Just look up the storage and memory needs of a vector point (plus it's animation) and compare that to an RGB triplet. It's pretty easy to find what you are looking for. I don't think it's easy at all. A complex image with a lot of irregular detail may require more vector data to represent than a bitmap. Similarly an animation over multiple frames may require a lot of bitmaps to represent it, but relatively few vectors, particularly with tweening. There is no absolute answer to the efficiency of vector representation versus bitmaps - it depends on what is being represented. In general, many images can be represented with vector data more concisely than bitmaps so vectors would be more compact. The problem of flash for mobile is as much about politics and protecting the Apple appstore than anything else -it seems to me that flash was a threat by allowing apps to be produced bypassing Apples appstore. Adobe has said for years that mobile platforms should use bitmaps to conserve processor utilisation. The other real problem with flash is that some developers use inefficient processing loops that eat up processing power - I can often see it on my laptop when the fan suddenly kicks in after I've launched a flash app. -j On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: Ross P. Sclafani skriver: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/optimizing-mobile-performance.html That discusses runtime performance, not how big the data is. And it does not provide any concrete research results. Just unscientific individual observations. I want concrete numbers that discuss how vector graphics impact the size of the animation. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Paul Andrews skriver: Adobe has said for years that mobile platforms should use bitmaps to conserve processor utilisation. The other real problem with flash is that some developers use inefficient processing loops that eat up processing power - I can often see it on my laptop when the fan suddenly kicks in after I've launched a flash app. I am of the opinion that things can be stored as vectors and then cached as bitmaps at runtime. The issue here is that the built in caching is limited to just one version of each object and objects can't share caches. Flash needs a more powerful caching system for rasterized vector art. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
Agreed. By converting from vectored to rastered art for some of our complex components we tripled the frame rate in Flash. At the same time, we converted our character from 6MB to 42KB by converting it from a sprite sheet into animated components in Flash, but it took the artist quite a while! (still raster mind you, but not sprites) On 17 September 2012 17:54, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: Paul Andrews skriver: Adobe has said for years that mobile platforms should use bitmaps to conserve processor utilisation. The other real problem with flash is that some developers use inefficient processing loops that eat up processing power - I can often see it on my laptop when the fan suddenly kicks in after I've launched a flash app. I am of the opinion that things can be stored as vectors and then cached as bitmaps at runtime. The issue here is that the built in caching is limited to just one version of each object and objects can't share caches. Flash needs a more powerful caching system for rasterized vector art. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Actionscript lives on.
You are right about this - it is situational. However, if one is concerned with performance and processor load, vectors fail at any mild level of complexity compared to bitmaps. An image with irregular detail can still, most always (unless every pixel is different) be compressed down to a smaller form. It most certainly has less processor overhead (maybe not memory). -j On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:29 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote: On 17/09/2012 22:10, Jon Bradley wrote: Just look up the storage and memory needs of a vector point (plus it's animation) and compare that to an RGB triplet. It's pretty easy to find what you are looking for. I don't think it's easy at all. A complex image with a lot of irregular detail may require more vector data to represent than a bitmap. Similarly an animation over multiple frames may require a lot of bitmaps to represent it, but relatively few vectors, particularly with tweening. There is no absolute answer to the efficiency of vector representation versus bitmaps - it depends on what is being represented. In general, many images can be represented with vector data more concisely than bitmaps so vectors would be more compact. The problem of flash for mobile is as much about politics and protecting the Apple appstore than anything else -it seems to me that flash was a threat by allowing apps to be produced bypassing Apples appstore. Adobe has said for years that mobile platforms should use bitmaps to conserve processor utilisation. The other real problem with flash is that some developers use inefficient processing loops that eat up processing power - I can often see it on my laptop when the fan suddenly kicks in after I've launched a flash app. -j On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Henrik Andersson he...@henke37.cjb.net wrote: Ross P. Sclafani skriver: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/optimizing-mobile-performance.html That discusses runtime performance, not how big the data is. And it does not provide any concrete research results. Just unscientific individual observations. I want concrete numbers that discuss how vector graphics impact the size of the animation. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
