Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Lux, James P <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: ...There are almost certainly some interesting interactions with things like > compressors and limiters, though. In general, you want enough (analog) gain > on the mic input to get the signal well up into the dynamic range of the > audio A/D that's digitizing it, but after that, it's all floating point. That's right. Apart from a small handful of specific components the entire signal chain is designed to be linear, with unity gain. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- E. W. Dijkstra ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
> --- You can peruse (and that is the correct word.. Lots of detailed > examination required) the equivalent of the schematics: the source > code for PowerSDR and dttsp. Certainly one could do that. I suspect that it would be a long climb up the learning curve for a small amount of information. A logical block diagram would probably be useful. whether one performs functions in DSP or in analog hardware, one still performs those functions. > There is no "power control" per-se inside the physical radio. Ah. I thought that there might be a way to vary the gain of an analog driver stage so that you are operating at an optimum level of output from the DAC and yet are still able to change the gain of the transmit chain. After all, there is not an insignificant amount of analog hardware in the F5K itself. > The output of the QSE (vector mod) gets amplified in an essentially > fixed gain chain, so the thing that determines output power level is > the audio level fed to the modulator, which in turn is probably > entirely determined by the digital data stream. (I don't recall > seeing any code to change the DAC gain, but, OTOH, I haven't looked > for it) > >> In more traditional SSB radios one has no choice but to control >> transmit power level by varying the mic (low-level) gain. Gain >> settings for the rest of the stages are fixed. With the Elecraft K2 >> we have, I found it works better to optimize the baseband signal >> level (audio) and then use the power output control to vary the >> transmitter power. >> >> So, how does the F5K work? I would naturally lean toward fixing the >> baseband signal level and then use the transmitter power level >> control to set the TX power output but now you are saying that we >> should manage power using the mic gain. >> > - Frank or Bob would be the ideal folks to answer the details, > but, I suspect it doesn't make much difference. All the DSP is > floating point, so it's not like you have the traditional analog > problem of "saturating an amplifier". Ah, but you do. Floating point or not, there is some point at which you clip the DAC on one end and some point where noise becomes a problem at the other. FP simply makes the intermediate results of calculations more palatable and easier for the programmer. > There are almost certainly some interesting interactions with things > like compressors and limiters, though. Yes, they potentially play hob with dynamic range. > In general, you want enough (analog) gain on the mic input to get > the signal well up into the dynamic range of the audio A/D that's > digitizing it, but after that, it's all floating point. Until you reach the DAC. Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori School 9330 Sierra College Bl brian AT gbmontessori DOT com Roseville, CA 95661 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)+1.791.912.8170 (fax) PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:57 AM To: Dudley Hurry Cc: Don Sachnoff; flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0 On Sep 4, 2008, at 9:08 PM, Dudley Hurry wrote: > Don, > > Using VAC, you use the VAC TX Gain to regulate your output, if you > are using the conventional method of physical cables to and from the > computer sound card, use the TX gain. (mic gain) as you would with > any regular radio. > > In VAC I used the default values. I can send you my values if you > would like. Normally I would peruse the schematics to try to understand how things work in a radio. Not being able to do that with the F5K, it would be nice to understand how signal levels are managed in the transmit chain. --- You can peruse (and that is the correct word.. Lots of detailed examination required) the equivalent of the schematics: the source code for PowerSDR and dttsp. There is no "power control" per-se inside the physical radio. The output of the QSE (vector mod) gets amplified in an essentially fixed gain chain, so the thing that determines output power level is the audio level fed to the modulator, which in turn is probably entirely determined by the digital data stream. (I don't recall seeing any code to change the DAC gain, but, OTOH, I haven't looked for it) In more traditional SSB radios one has no choice but to control transmit power level by varying the mic (low-level) gain. Gain settings for the rest of the stages are fixed. With the Elecraft K2 we have, I found it works better to optimize the baseband signal level (audio) and then use the power output control to vary the transmitter power. So, how does the F5K work? I would naturally lean toward fixing the baseband signal level and then use the transmitter power level control to set the TX power output but now you are saying that we should manage power using the mic gain. - Frank or Bob would be the ideal folks to answer the details, but, I suspect it doesn't make much difference. All the DSP is floating point, so it's not like you have the traditional analog problem of "saturating an amplifier". There are almost certainly some interesting interactions with things like compressors and limiters, though. In general, you want enough (analog) gain on the mic input to get the signal well up into the dynamic range of the audio A/D that's digitizing it, but after that, it's all floating point. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
On Sep 4, 2008, at 9:08 PM, Dudley Hurry wrote: > Don, > > Using VAC, you use the VAC TX Gain to regulate your output, if you > are > using the conventional method of physical cables to and from the > computer sound card, use the TX gain. (mic gain) as you would with > any > regular radio. > > In VAC I used the default values. I can send you my values if you > would like. Normally I would peruse the schematics to try to understand how things work in a radio. Not being able to do that with the F5K, it would be nice to understand how signal levels are managed in the transmit chain. In more traditional SSB radios one has no choice but to control transmit power level by varying the mic (low-level) gain. Gain settings for the rest of the stages are fixed. With the Elecraft K2 we have, I found it works better to optimize the baseband signal level (audio) and then use the power output control to vary the transmitter power. So, how does the F5K work? I would naturally lean toward fixing the baseband signal level and then use the transmitter power level control to set the TX power output but now you are saying that we should manage power using the mic gain. Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori School 9330 Sierra College Bl brian AT gbmontessori DOT com Roseville, CA 95661 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)+1.791.912.8170 (fax) PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
Hello all, I have no issues with V1.14.0 so far. I run my SDR1k on 80, 40 and 20m on SSB, AM, PSK, RTTY and CW. On Digital modes I use VAC with Hamscope/MMTTY and all seems to be working very well I just want to thank the boys at Flex for continuing their support of the SDR1k. The new PowerSDR software has got some really great features. Again, Thanks, Dennis, k0eoo Dudley Hurry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don, > > Using VAC, you use the VAC TX Gain to regulate your output, if you are > using the conventional method of physical cables to and from the > computer sound card, use the TX gain. (mic gain) as you would with any > regular radio. > > In VAC I used the default values. I can send you my values if you > would like. > > 73, > Dudley > > WA5QPZ > > > > Don Sachnoff wrote: > > Dudley > > > > As I mentioned to Tim, I thought there was a KB that said you should > > run the TX Gain up until you reached -1db or 0db of mic gain which is > > what I was doing and it worked well with v1.12.1 and earlier releases > > - I did send Eric a copy of the mdb back on 8/22 when I experienced > > this problem previously. I can see where one should run full power on > > the radio and adjust with the audio (VAC?) gain (I do that with the > > "regular radio"), however, I am confused as to where the VAC gain is. > > I have been using the TX Gain. Is the VAC gain the same as the TX > > Gain or are they different controls? In Tune mode I do get full > > output so that tells me there is nothing wrong with the radio. > > > > In The VAC control panel I was wondering what is the correct stream > > format: Cable range, cable format, or none. I have been using cable > > format. > > > > Don - kx9q > > > > - Original Message ---- > > From: Dudley Hurry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: Don Sachnoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz > > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 11:41:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0 > > > > Don, > > > > I guess I run just the opposite.. I run the TX drive at 100, but use > > the VAC gain (if you are using VAC) to regulate my output on digital > > (usually about 30 watts) or TX audio gain (if you feeding audio in thru > > either the mic input or line input) ..Sometimes the internal gains > > are re-routed and the actual values will change slightly..In Tune, > > do you get full output when drive is increased to 100?? > > > > 73, > > Dudley > > > > WA5QPZ > > > > > > > > Don Sachnoff wrote: > > > If I set the drive to 30 and the TX Gain set to -8 so the the mic > > > reading is 0db then key up for PSK using Mixw, I show about 2 watts > > > output both on the power meter in PSDR and an external watt meter. > > > Normally I would get about 10-15 watts output with the past version. > > > Now if I crank up the Tx gain to 2, the mic reads 9db and the output is > > > where it should be, however, I don't feel this is what it should > > be. If > > > go to the TUN mode I get the proper power out all the way up to 100 > > > watts so the F5K is ok. > > > > > > I experienced this problem earlier with 1.13 test version and now I am > > > experiencing it with v1.14.0. > > > > > > Don - kx9q > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > > > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz <mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz> > > > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > > > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > > > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > > > > > > > > ___ > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
Don, Using VAC, you use the VAC TX Gain to regulate your output, if you are using the conventional method of physical cables to and from the computer sound card, use the TX gain. (mic gain) as you would with any regular radio. In VAC I used the default values. I can send you my values if you would like. 73, Dudley WA5QPZ Don Sachnoff wrote: > Dudley > > As I mentioned to Tim, I thought there was a KB that said you should > run the TX Gain up until you reached -1db or 0db of mic gain which is > what I was doing and it worked well with v1.12.1 and earlier releases > - I did send Eric a copy of the mdb back on 8/22 when I experienced > this problem previously. I can see where one should run full power on > the radio and adjust with the audio (VAC?) gain (I do that with the > "regular radio"), however, I am confused as to where the VAC gain is. > I have been using the TX Gain. Is the VAC gain the same as the TX > Gain or are they different controls? In Tune mode I do get full > output so that tells me there is nothing wrong with the radio. > > In The VAC control panel I was wondering what is the correct stream > format: Cable range, cable format, or none. I have been using cable > format. > > Don - kx9q > > - Original Message > From: Dudley Hurry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Don Sachnoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 11:41:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0 > > Don, > > I guess I run just the opposite.. I run the TX drive at 100, but use > the VAC gain (if you are using VAC) to regulate my output on digital > (usually about 30 watts) or TX audio gain (if you feeding audio in thru > either the mic input or line input) ..Sometimes the internal gains > are re-routed and the actual values will change slightly..In Tune, > do you get full output when drive is increased to 100?? > > 73, > Dudley > > WA5QPZ > > > > Don Sachnoff wrote: > > If I set the drive to 30 and the TX Gain set to -8 so the the mic > > reading is 0db then key up for PSK using Mixw, I show about 2 watts > > output both on the power meter in PSDR and an external watt meter. > > Normally I would get about 10-15 watts output with the past version. > > Now if I crank up the Tx gain to 2, the mic reads 9db and the output is > > where it should be, however, I don't feel this is what it should > be. If > > go to the TUN mode I get the proper power out all the way up to 100 > > watts so the F5K is ok. > > > > I experienced this problem earlier with 1.13 test version and now I am > > experiencing it with v1.14.0. > > > > Don - kx9q > > > > > > > > ___ > > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz <mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz> > > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > > > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
Dudley As I mentioned to Tim, I thought there was a KB that said you should run the TX Gain up until you reached -1db or 0db of mic gain which is what I was doing and it worked well with v1.12.1 and earlier releases - I did send Eric a copy of the mdb back on 8/22 when I experienced this problem previously. I can see where one should run full power on the radio and adjust with the audio (VAC?) gain (I do that with the "regular radio"), however, I am confused as to where the VAC gain is. I have been using the TX Gain. Is the VAC gain the same as the TX Gain or are they different controls? In Tune mode I do get full output so that tells me there is nothing wrong with the radio. In The VAC control panel I was wondering what is the correct stream format: Cable range, cable format, or none. I have been using cable format. Don - kx9q - Original Message From: Dudley Hurry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Don Sachnoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 11:41:46 PM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0 Don, I guess I run just the opposite.. I run the TX drive at 100, but use the VAC gain (if you are using VAC) to regulate my output on digital (usually about 30 watts) or TX audio gain (if you feeding audio in thru either the mic input or line input) ..Sometimes the internal gains are re-routed and the actual values will change slightly..In Tune, do you get full output when drive is increased to 100?? 73, Dudley WA5QPZ Don Sachnoff wrote: > If I set the drive to 30 and the TX Gain set to -8 so the the mic > reading is 0db then key up for PSK using Mixw, I show about 2 watts > output both on the power meter in PSDR and an external watt meter. > Normally I would get about 10-15 watts output with the past version. > Now if I crank up the Tx gain to 2, the mic reads 9db and the output is > where it should be, however, I don't feel this is what it should be. If > go to the TUN mode I get the proper power out all the way up to 100 > watts so the F5K is ok. > > I experienced this problem earlier with 1.13 test version and now I am > experiencing it with v1.14.0. > > Don - kx9q > > > > ___ > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
Don, I guess I run just the opposite.. I run the TX drive at 100, but use the VAC gain (if you are using VAC) to regulate my output on digital (usually about 30 watts) or TX audio gain (if you feeding audio in thru either the mic input or line input) ..Sometimes the internal gains are re-routed and the actual values will change slightly..In Tune, do you get full output when drive is increased to 100?? 73, Dudley WA5QPZ Don Sachnoff wrote: > If I set the drive to 30 and the TX Gain set to -8 so the the mic > reading is 0db then key up for PSK using Mixw, I show about 2 watts > output both on the power meter in PSDR and an external watt meter. > Normally I would get about 10-15 watts output with the past version. > Now if I crank up the Tx gain to 2, the mic reads 9db and the output is > where it should be, however, I don't feel this is what it should be. If > go to the TUN mode I get the proper power out all the way up to 100 > watts so the F5K is ok. > > I experienced this problem earlier with 1.13 test version and now I am > experiencing it with v1.14.0. > > Don - kx9q > > > > ___ > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
I have seen this also and reported it -- Bug ID #1903 Dave Beumer - WA3FDB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Sachnoff Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0 If I set the drive to 30 and the TX Gain set to -8 so the the mic reading is 0db then key up for PSK using Mixw, I show about 2 watts output both on the power meter in PSDR and an external watt meter. Normally I would get about 10-15 watts output with the past version. Now if I crank up the Tx gain to 2, the mic reads 9db and the output is where it should be, however, I don't feel this is what it should be. If go to the TUN mode I get the proper power out all the way up to 100 watts so the F5K is ok. I experienced this problem earlier with 1.13 test version and now I am experiencing it with v1.14.0. Don - kx9q ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
[Flexradio] Issue with V1.14.0
If I set the drive to 30 and the TX Gain set to -8 so the the mic reading is 0db then key up for PSK using Mixw, I show about 2 watts output both on the power meter in PSDR and an external watt meter. Normally I would get about 10-15 watts output with the past version. Now if I crank up the Tx gain to 2, the mic reads 9db and the output is where it should be, however, I don't feel this is what it should be. If go to the TUN mode I get the proper power out all the way up to 100 watts so the F5K is ok. I experienced this problem earlier with 1.13 test version and now I am experiencing it with v1.14.0. Don - kx9q ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
