Re: [Framers] Error Message Explanation

[Thomas Bain]

Spencer - 

 

I've never had issues opening files from older versions in the current
version. For grins, I just opened a 1994 file that was in v3, and it opened
fine. You could install a 30-day trial of the current version (16, aka 2020)
to confirm that it works and see if the .jpeg import error goes away.

 

Tom Bain
  b...@acm.org

 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of Spencer Rugaber
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 13:25
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Error Message Explanation

 

Hi,

 

I have a legacy version of Framemaker (v5) and a collection of .fm files
that I am trying to edit.

One of the edits tries to add a .jpeg image to a file. To do this, I create
and select an empty Graphics frame. I then click on File -> Import ->
File... I then navigate to the .jpeg file and click on Import.

 

When I do this, I see the message:

 

The filter encountered an error and could not compete the
translation

 

which, I don't understand.

 

Although I have been able to import many such images in the past, doing this
no longer works for me. I have tried different images and different image
formats, all with the same result. I have searched online for
interpretations of this message, to no avail. I have even tried completely
reinstalling Framemaker. Nothing I do changes the outcome.

 

Can anyone provide an interpretation for this message? Can anyone suggest a
workaround?

 

Of course, one possibility would be to buy a more recent version of
Framemaker. But before I do this, I want to better understand the problem,
so I can have some confidence that the new version would fix it. Also, if I
do this, can I expect that .fm or .mif files created in v5 would work on the
most recent version?

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Spencer

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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many

[Craig, Alison GLI/CA]

I have the (unusably) "slow" problem.

David: Please share if you have an Acrobat setting tweaked in a way that most 
of us don't...

Alison 

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of creamertrainingli...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 2:05 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many

I downloaded in about 2 seconds and opened it in Acrobat Pro in about 3
seconds.

Dave Creamer
IDEAS Training

-Original Message-

The FM PDF help file is almost unusable in the current version because of
long loading and scrolling times.
If you have the full Acrobat version, use this workaround: remove all PDF
tags and scrolling, loading and searching etc. works like a charm.


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Re: [Framers] super-slow tagged FrameMaker Help PDF

[Robert Lauriston]

Did you download framemaker_help.pdf from
https://www.adobe.com/go/learn_fm16_ug_pdf_en ? I have gigabit
internet, so downloading was almost instant, but it took two or three
minutes to open in Acrobat Pro DC, and 20 minutes later it still
hasn't finished saving as reduced file size.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 2:04 PM  wrote:
>
> I downloaded in about 2 seconds and opened it in Acrobat Pro in about 3
> seconds.
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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many

[creamertraininglists]

I downloaded in about 2 seconds and opened it in Acrobat Pro in about 3
seconds.

Dave Creamer
IDEAS Training

-Original Message-

The FM PDF help file is almost unusable in the current version because of
long loading and scrolling times.
If you have the full Acrobat version, use this workaround: remove all PDF
tags and scrolling, loading and searching etc. works like a charm.


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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Robert Lauriston]

They didn't know better than to create created a tagged PDF? Yikes.

That's not as bad as the time they shipped a new version of FrameMaker
that wouldn't run unless it was installed in the root of the c: drive.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 10:52 PM Gust, Dieter  wrote:
>
> Winfried wrote: "You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe 
> website:
> https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html;
> The FM PDF help file is almost unusable in the current version because of 
> long loading and scrolling times.
> If you have the full Acrobat version, use this workaround: remove all PDF 
> tags and scrolling, loading and searching etc. works like a charm.
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Re: [Framers] Opening FM-user guide takes aeons...

[Klaus Daube]

On 20 Oct 2021 at 11:00, Lin Sims wrote:

> That PDF is useful but also a real pain, because it takes forever to open
> and searching also takes a while. This is weird, because the manual for
> 2019 is a similar size but opens and searches quickly on the same machine.
> I even tried to save it as optimized without any improvement.

Recently the cause of this behaviour has been discovered and Adobe has been 
asked to 
correct the situation.

Klaus


~~~
Klaus Daube Phone:  +41-44-381 37 77
Schäracher 11   Mail:   kl...@daube.ch
CH-8053 Zürich  Web:www.daube.ch


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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Lin Sims]

BLESS YOU!

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 1:52 AM Gust, Dieter  wrote:

> Winfried wrote: "You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the
> Adobe website:
> https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html;
> The FM PDF help file is almost unusable in the current version because of
> long loading and scrolling times.
> If you have the full Acrobat version, use this workaround: remove all PDF
> tags and scrolling, loading and searching etc. works like a charm.
>
> Regards Dieter Gust
>
>
>

-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Gust, Dieter]

Winfried wrote: "You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe 
website:
https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html;
The FM PDF help file is almost unusable in the current version because of long 
loading and scrolling times.
If you have the full Acrobat version, use this workaround: remove all PDF tags 
and scrolling, loading and searching etc. works like a charm.

Regards Dieter Gust

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Framers  Im 
Auftrag von Reng Winfried
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Oktober 2021 16:18
An: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Betreff: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many 
of us feel the way we do

Hi,

You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe website:
https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html

Best regards

Winfried

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Blackmon, Ramona
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:00 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many 
of us feel the way we do

Dennis,

Yes, will you please post the FrameMaker manual you have for us to use as 
reference?

Ramona Blackmon


-Original Message-
From: Framers  
On Behalf Of Dennis Hays
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 6:20 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of 
us feel the way we do

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Way back in the dark ages, when FrameMaker was first ported to Windows, I 
worked with a FM staff member, Mercedes (still fondly remember her), to address 
bugs and issues. She sent me updates via overnight courier and these were 
multiple disk sets, calling for a fresh install. The reason I remember her name 
is because we talked almost daily and installation disks arrived weekly or more 
until the issue count dropped.

Of course, I don't expect this level of customer service anymore from any 
software publisher, but through the years I have had bits and pieces of 
exemplary support. On a contract to bring a trade book to press, I worked with 
Dov over the phone as to why illustrations with schematics wouldn't reproduce 
lines. and this from the printer's site in Michigan.
More recently, I worked with Adobe to resolve an issue where importing and 
converting a MS Word document crashed FrameMaker (MS Word Track Changes caused 
the problem - this was last year).

I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an egregious 
affront to hold the software hostage when missing a subscription payment. From 
a business point of view, it's a cash flow solution, reducing the seasonal 
vagaries of software sales. But it's not customer-centric.  And this is a 
problem.

A while back, someone on this forum mentioned difficulty finding a FrameMaker 
manual. I have a 1241 page Adobe PDF version dated June 1,
2021 on the cover page. It's a 46MB file, but if anyone wants a copy, I'll post 
it where it can be downloaded.

Dennis Hays
Ex-Publisher of the now-extinct InFrame Magazine

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Re: [Framers] read/write rules

[dave]

Scott

Framemaker Update 3 really appears to be my problem. I don't get the error
with Update 2 but I get it with Update 3. I uninstalled and reinstalled each
twice to make sure.

Thanks for the help.

David L. Hottman
Compliance Automation, Inc
C: 720-984-4325  T: 303-481-8467 

-Original Message-
From: d...@reqexperts.com  
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 6:01 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'

Subject: RE: [Framers] read/write rules

Scott

Thank you for those ideas. I will try them. I was just in the process of
uninstalling and reinstalling everything so great timing.

I have only ever found one download of the FDK 16 (and it wasn't the Adobe
Developer page which only has the FDK 15). It was on the link you provided.
I have no idea what version it is.

And also thanks for the heads up on the FDK specific group. I will figure
out how to subscribe to the list.

Again thanks..

David L. Hottman
Compliance Automation, Inc
C: 720-984-4325  T: 303-481-8467 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of Scott Prentice
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:58 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] read/write rules

Hi Dave...

When initially building an import/export client for FM16 I had to use VS
2019, but as of 16.0.3 that no longer works. With Update #3, Adobe released
a new FDK, but that doesn't work for me either. If you're using 16.0.3, you
might try rolling back to 16.0.2 to see if your client works there (but
don't use the new FDK with 16.0.2).

You can download Update #2 and the latest FDK (for 16.0.3 only, I assume),
from here ..

https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/kb/framemaker-downloads.html

For FDK-specific help you might try posting here .. frame-...@groups.io

Cheers,
...scott



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Re: [Framers] read/write rules

[Scott Prentice]

Dave...

I'm quite sure that the FDK at that link is for 16.0.3. It's definitely 
not the one that was released with 16.0 .. has newer functions/defines.


Unfortunately, Adobe doesn't add any versioning to the FDKs other than 
the major release number, so you have to do some diffing to come up with 
an educated guess.


Cheers,
...scott


On 10/20/21 5:00 PM, d...@reqexperts.com wrote:

Scott

Thank you for those ideas. I will try them. I was just in the process of
uninstalling and reinstalling everything so great timing.

I have only ever found one download of the FDK 16 (and it wasn't the Adobe
Developer page which only has the FDK 15). It was on the link you provided.
I have no idea what version it is.

And also thanks for the heads up on the FDK specific group. I will figure
out how to subscribe to the list.

Again thanks..

David L. Hottman
Compliance Automation, Inc
C: 720-984-4325  T: 303-481-8467

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of Scott Prentice
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:58 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] read/write rules

Hi Dave...

When initially building an import/export client for FM16 I had to use VS
2019, but as of 16.0.3 that no longer works. With Update #3, Adobe released
a new FDK, but that doesn't work for me either. If you're using 16.0.3, you
might try rolling back to 16.0.2 to see if your client works there (but
don't use the new FDK with 16.0.2).

You can download Update #2 and the latest FDK (for 16.0.3 only, I assume),
from here ..

https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/kb/framemaker-downloads.html

For FDK-specific help you might try posting here .. frame-...@groups.io

Cheers,
...scott



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Re: [Framers] read/write rules

[dave]

Scott

Thank you for those ideas. I will try them. I was just in the process of
uninstalling and reinstalling everything so great timing.

I have only ever found one download of the FDK 16 (and it wasn't the Adobe
Developer page which only has the FDK 15). It was on the link you provided.
I have no idea what version it is.

And also thanks for the heads up on the FDK specific group. I will figure
out how to subscribe to the list.

Again thanks..

David L. Hottman
Compliance Automation, Inc
C: 720-984-4325  T: 303-481-8467 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of Scott Prentice
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:58 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] read/write rules

Hi Dave...

When initially building an import/export client for FM16 I had to use VS
2019, but as of 16.0.3 that no longer works. With Update #3, Adobe released
a new FDK, but that doesn't work for me either. If you're using 16.0.3, you
might try rolling back to 16.0.2 to see if your client works there (but
don't use the new FDK with 16.0.2).

You can download Update #2 and the latest FDK (for 16.0.3 only, I assume),
from here ..

https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/kb/framemaker-downloads.html

For FDK-specific help you might try posting here .. frame-...@groups.io

Cheers,
...scott



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Re: [Framers] read/write rules

[Scott Prentice]

Hi Dave...

When initially building an import/export client for FM16 I had to use VS 
2019, but as of 16.0.3 that no longer works. With Update #3, Adobe 
released a new FDK, but that doesn't work for me either. If you're using 
16.0.3, you might try rolling back to 16.0.2 to see if your client works 
there (but don't use the new FDK with 16.0.2).


You can download Update #2 and the latest FDK (for 16.0.3 only, I 
assume), from here ..


https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/kb/framemaker-downloads.html

For FDK-specific help you might try posting here .. frame-...@groups.io

Cheers,
...scott


On 10/20/21 12:42 PM, d...@reqexperts.com wrote:

Lynn

Yes I am kind of thinking the message may not be accurately pointing at the 
problem.

We have recompiled the API client with the FDK16 for Visual Studio 2017. The 
API client appears to load from the API clients section in the maker.ini file 
without a problem.

When I watch a file being saved I don't ever see an XML file being created (the 
folder is empty and I don't see any interim XML files either).

It doesn't appear that the API client is being called before it fails.

Thanks

David L. Hottman
Compliance Automation, Inc

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Lynne A. Price
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 12:40 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] read/write rules

Dave,

 Even though the error message refers to the r/w rules, the problem could 
be with your API client. Have you recompiled for the newer version of FM?

  --Lynne

--
Lynne A. Price
Text Structure Consulting, Inc.
Specializing in structured FrameMaker consulting, application development, and 
training
lpr...@txstruct.comhttp://www.txstruct.com
voice/fax: (510) 583-1505  cell phone: (510) 421-2284

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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[tammyvb]

Thank you Dennis!!! 

Much appreciated.

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Dennis Hays
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:09 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so
> many of us feel the way we do
> 
> June 1, 2021 version of the FrameMaker Help Manual:
> https://www.framegoodies.us/FrameMaker_Help/framemaker_help.pdf
> 
> Dennis
> 
> Lin Sims wrote on 10/20/2021 11:01 AM:
> > Note also that the contents of the PDF and the online help are
identical.
> > It's useful if you're not connected, but it might actually be faster
> > to use the online help if you are.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 11:00 AM Lin Sims  wrote:
> >
> >> That PDF is useful but also a real pain, because it takes forever to
> >> open and searching also takes a while. This is weird, because the
> >> manual for
> >> 2019 is a similar size but opens and searches quickly on the same
machine.
> >> I even tried to save it as optimized without any improvement.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:18 AM Reng Winfried <
> >> w.r...@carecom-solutions.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe
> website:
> >>> https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> --
> DENNIS
> Hays
> Quantum Mechanic
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennishays/>
> 
> 
> +1 518.779.2322
> dennis.h...@haysdesign.com
> www.HaysDesign.com <https://www.postbox-inc.com>
> 11 Circle Dr
> Castleton NY 12033-9526
> 
> ___
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
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Re: [Framers] read/write rules

[dave]

Lynn

Yes I am kind of thinking the message may not be accurately pointing at the 
problem. 

We have recompiled the API client with the FDK16 for Visual Studio 2017. The 
API client appears to load from the API clients section in the maker.ini file 
without a problem. 

When I watch a file being saved I don't ever see an XML file being created (the 
folder is empty and I don't see any interim XML files either).

It doesn't appear that the API client is being called before it fails.

Thanks

David L. Hottman
Compliance Automation, Inc

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Lynne A. Price
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 12:40 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] read/write rules

Dave,

Even though the error message refers to the r/w rules, the problem could be 
with your API client. Have you recompiled for the newer version of FM?

 --Lynne

--
Lynne A. Price
Text Structure Consulting, Inc.
Specializing in structured FrameMaker consulting, application development, and 
training
lpr...@txstruct.comhttp://www.txstruct.com
voice/fax: (510) 583-1505  cell phone: (510) 421-2284

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Re: [Framers] read/write rules

[Lynne A. Price]

Dave,

   Even though the error message refers to the r/w rules, the problem 
could be with your API client. Have you recompiled for the newer version 
of FM?


    --Lynne

On 10/20/2021 11:32 AM, d...@reqexperts.com wrote:

We use a structured application that includes a structured API to tailor the
XML that Framemaker produces. We normally use a very simple read/write file:

...

So for testing we removed the read/write rules from the fm
application definition and we are now getting this:

  


"Fm dispatcher encountered an error and could not complete the translation"
and in the console window "Could not open the read/write rules file
(C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe FrameMaker 2020\structure\xml\default.rw).
Make sure that you have read access to the file and that the file is not
already in use. Error reading the rules file (C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe
FrameMaker 2020\structure\xml\default.rw). XML save aborted."



--
Lynne A. Price
Text Structure Consulting, Inc.
Specializing in structured FrameMaker consulting, application development, and 
training
lpr...@txstruct.comhttp://www.txstruct.com
voice/fax: (510) 583-1505  cell phone: (510) 421-2284

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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Robert Lauriston]

You can pay all at once or monthly, but FrameMaker subscriptions are annual.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:50 AM Peter Gold  wrote:
>
> ... To quote a spokes-emu, "Only subscribe for when you need." ...
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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Peter Gold]

Business models evolve. One reason to charge via ongoing subscriptions is
to finance the increasing ongoing development cost of the incremental
releases needed to keep current with industry's advances.

Some of Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription products have been offered on
intermittent month-by-month plans. If this option still exists, it's one
way to make expensive tools affordable.

To quote a spokes-emu, "Only subscribe for when you need."

Agreed that better technical support for those stubborn and costly
productivity-killing issues would help to justify the user fees.

Reading the several recent stories of beyond-lip-service tech support in
the past makes a case for the value of this forum as a place to share
positive and negative Adobe product, service, and corporate experiences
with the community.

It would be great if there was a way to get Adobe people, who have the
clout to make things happen when problems are reported here, read these
forum posts, and get the stuff done!

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:11 PM Robert Lauriston 
wrote:

> For software companies, one big plus for a subscription model is that
> they only need to support the latest version.
>
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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Robert Lauriston]

For software companies, one big plus for a subscription model is that
they only need to support the latest version.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 6:20 AM Dennis Hays  wrote:
>
> ... I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an
> egregious affront to hold the software hostage when missing a
> subscription payment. ...
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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Craig Ede]

I can only echo my agreement with Dennis on this.
.
Craig Ede
…snip…

I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an
egregious affront to hold the software hostage when missing a
subscription payment. From a business point of view, it's a cash flow
solution, reducing the seasonal vagaries of software sales. But it's not
customer-centric.  And this is a problem.
…unsnip…
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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Dennis Hays]

June 1, 2021 version of the FrameMaker Help Manual:
https://www.framegoodies.us/FrameMaker_Help/framemaker_help.pdf

Dennis

Lin Sims wrote on 10/20/2021 11:01 AM:

Note also that the contents of the PDF and the online help are identical.
It's useful if you're not connected, but it might actually be faster to use
the online help if you are.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 11:00 AM Lin Sims  wrote:


That PDF is useful but also a real pain, because it takes forever to open
and searching also takes a while. This is weird, because the manual for
2019 is a similar size but opens and searches quickly on the same machine.
I even tried to save it as optimized without any improvement.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:18 AM Reng Winfried <
w.r...@carecom-solutions.com> wrote:


Hi,

You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe website:
https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html




--
DENNIS
Hays
Quantum Mechanic



+1 518.779.2322
dennis.h...@haysdesign.com
www.HaysDesign.com 
11 Circle Dr
Castleton NY 12033-9526

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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Lin Sims]

Note also that the contents of the PDF and the online help are identical.
It's useful if you're not connected, but it might actually be faster to use
the online help if you are.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 11:00 AM Lin Sims  wrote:

> That PDF is useful but also a real pain, because it takes forever to open
> and searching also takes a while. This is weird, because the manual for
> 2019 is a similar size but opens and searches quickly on the same machine.
> I even tried to save it as optimized without any improvement.
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:18 AM Reng Winfried <
> w.r...@carecom-solutions.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe website:
>> https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Winfried
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers > carecom-solutions@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Blackmon, Ramona
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:00 PM
>> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
>> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why
>> so many of us feel the way we do
>>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> Yes, will you please post the FrameMaker manual you have for us to use as
>> reference?
>>
>> Ramona Blackmon
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers > fluke@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Dennis Hays
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 6:20 AM
>> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so
>> many of us feel the way we do
>>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
>> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
>> the content is safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> Way back in the dark ages, when FrameMaker was first ported to Windows, I
>> worked with a FM staff member, Mercedes (still fondly remember her), to
>> address bugs and issues. She sent me updates via overnight courier and
>> these were multiple disk sets, calling for a fresh install. The reason I
>> remember her name is because we talked almost daily and installation disks
>> arrived weekly or more until the issue count dropped.
>>
>> Of course, I don't expect this level of customer service anymore from any
>> software publisher, but through the years I have had bits and pieces of
>> exemplary support. On a contract to bring a trade book to press, I worked
>> with Dov over the phone as to why illustrations with schematics wouldn't
>> reproduce lines. and this from the printer's site in Michigan.
>> More recently, I worked with Adobe to resolve an issue where importing
>> and converting a MS Word document crashed FrameMaker (MS Word Track Changes
>> caused the problem - this was last year).
>>
>> I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an egregious
>> affront to hold the software hostage when missing a subscription payment.
>> From a business point of view, it's a cash flow solution, reducing the
>> seasonal vagaries of software sales. But it's not customer-centric.  And
>> this is a problem.
>>
>> A while back, someone on this forum mentioned difficulty finding a
>> FrameMaker manual. I have a 1241 page Adobe PDF version dated June 1,
>> 2021 on the cover page. It's a 46MB file, but if anyone wants a copy,
>> I'll post it where it can be downloaded.
>>
>> Dennis Hays
>> Ex-Publisher of the now-extinct InFrame Magazine
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>>
>> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
>> Archives located at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
>> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
>> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
>> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Lin Sims
>


-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Lin Sims]

That PDF is useful but also a real pain, because it takes forever to open
and searching also takes a while. This is weird, because the manual for
2019 is a similar size but opens and searches quickly on the same machine.
I even tried to save it as optimized without any improvement.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:18 AM Reng Winfried 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe website:
> https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html
>
> Best regards
>
> Winfried
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  carecom-solutions@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Blackmon, Ramona
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:00 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so
> many of us feel the way we do
>
> Dennis,
>
> Yes, will you please post the FrameMaker manual you have for us to use as
> reference?
>
> Ramona Blackmon
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  fluke@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Dennis Hays
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 6:20 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so
> many of us feel the way we do
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Way back in the dark ages, when FrameMaker was first ported to Windows, I
> worked with a FM staff member, Mercedes (still fondly remember her), to
> address bugs and issues. She sent me updates via overnight courier and
> these were multiple disk sets, calling for a fresh install. The reason I
> remember her name is because we talked almost daily and installation disks
> arrived weekly or more until the issue count dropped.
>
> Of course, I don't expect this level of customer service anymore from any
> software publisher, but through the years I have had bits and pieces of
> exemplary support. On a contract to bring a trade book to press, I worked
> with Dov over the phone as to why illustrations with schematics wouldn't
> reproduce lines. and this from the printer's site in Michigan.
> More recently, I worked with Adobe to resolve an issue where importing and
> converting a MS Word document crashed FrameMaker (MS Word Track Changes
> caused the problem - this was last year).
>
> I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an egregious
> affront to hold the software hostage when missing a subscription payment.
> From a business point of view, it's a cash flow solution, reducing the
> seasonal vagaries of software sales. But it's not customer-centric.  And
> this is a problem.
>
> A while back, someone on this forum mentioned difficulty finding a
> FrameMaker manual. I have a 1241 page Adobe PDF version dated June 1,
> 2021 on the cover page. It's a 46MB file, but if anyone wants a copy, I'll
> post it where it can be downloaded.
>
> Dennis Hays
> Ex-Publisher of the now-extinct InFrame Magazine
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>


-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Reng Winfried]

Hi,

You can download the FrameMaker help as PDF from the Adobe website:
https://helpx.adobe.com/framemaker/help/help-resources.html

Best regards

Winfried

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Blackmon, Ramona
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 4:00 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many 
of us feel the way we do

Dennis,

Yes, will you please post the FrameMaker manual you have for us to use as 
reference?

Ramona Blackmon


-Original Message-
From: Framers  
On Behalf Of Dennis Hays
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 6:20 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of 
us feel the way we do

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Way back in the dark ages, when FrameMaker was first ported to Windows, I 
worked with a FM staff member, Mercedes (still fondly remember her), to address 
bugs and issues. She sent me updates via overnight courier and these were 
multiple disk sets, calling for a fresh install. The reason I remember her name 
is because we talked almost daily and installation disks arrived weekly or more 
until the issue count dropped.

Of course, I don't expect this level of customer service anymore from any 
software publisher, but through the years I have had bits and pieces of 
exemplary support. On a contract to bring a trade book to press, I worked with 
Dov over the phone as to why illustrations with schematics wouldn't reproduce 
lines. and this from the printer's site in Michigan.
More recently, I worked with Adobe to resolve an issue where importing and 
converting a MS Word document crashed FrameMaker (MS Word Track Changes caused 
the problem - this was last year).

I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an egregious 
affront to hold the software hostage when missing a subscription payment. From 
a business point of view, it's a cash flow solution, reducing the seasonal 
vagaries of software sales. But it's not customer-centric.  And this is a 
problem.

A while back, someone on this forum mentioned difficulty finding a FrameMaker 
manual. I have a 1241 page Adobe PDF version dated June 1,
2021 on the cover page. It's a 46MB file, but if anyone wants a copy, I'll post 
it where it can be downloaded.

Dennis Hays
Ex-Publisher of the now-extinct InFrame Magazine

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Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Re: Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Blackmon, Ramona]

Dennis,

Yes, will you please post the FrameMaker manual you have for us to use as 
reference?

Ramona Blackmon


-Original Message-
From: Framers  
On Behalf Of Dennis Hays
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 6:20 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of 
us feel the way we do

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Way back in the dark ages, when FrameMaker was first ported to Windows, I 
worked with a FM staff member, Mercedes (still fondly remember her), to address 
bugs and issues. She sent me updates via overnight courier and these were 
multiple disk sets, calling for a fresh install. The reason I remember her name 
is because we talked almost daily and installation disks arrived weekly or more 
until the issue count dropped.

Of course, I don't expect this level of customer service anymore from any 
software publisher, but through the years I have had bits and pieces of 
exemplary support. On a contract to bring a trade book to press, I worked with 
Dov over the phone as to why illustrations with schematics wouldn't reproduce 
lines. and this from the printer's site in Michigan.
More recently, I worked with Adobe to resolve an issue where importing and 
converting a MS Word document crashed FrameMaker (MS Word Track Changes caused 
the problem - this was last year).

I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an egregious 
affront to hold the software hostage when missing a subscription payment. From 
a business point of view, it's a cash flow solution, reducing the seasonal 
vagaries of software sales. But it's not customer-centric.  And this is a 
problem.

A while back, someone on this forum mentioned difficulty finding a FrameMaker 
manual. I have a 1241 page Adobe PDF version dated June 1,
2021 on the cover page. It's a 46MB file, but if anyone wants a copy, I'll post 
it where it can be downloaded.

Dennis Hays
Ex-Publisher of the now-extinct InFrame Magazine


Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote on 10/20/2021 7:54 AM:
> Dear Wim,
>
> I do think Adobe reads this list, at least from time to time. So it is
> IMNSHO essential that we discuss, not only the day-to-day problems we
> are facing in our tasks with FM but also its pros and cons. I for one
> welcome the discussion of the attitude that Adobe seems to show
> regarding development, pricing, etc. of FrameMaker. I am of the view
> that Adobe is
> (intentionally?) making it less of a competitor to InDesign by
> refusing to add features that ID has and we have asked for to be added
> to FM. If they did, and if they would enable you freely to add spell
> checker and hyphenation for your language of choice, FM would be the
> absolutely best tool for writing, editing, publishing any kind of
> literature. Then even I would pay for upgrades. Until then I am not
> upgrading. I can do with older versions quite easily.
>
> Kind regards,
> Bodvar Bjorgvinsson (retired)
> Iceland.
>
>

--
DENNIS
Hays
Quantum Mechanic
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennishays/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!J11TiN_55e8OMSPk6aP8503jChfNmYh-je2YguSomALgjQyTiV2yGFJbU4Ljh4QeLB8S$
 >


+1 518.779.2322
dennis.h...@haysdesign.com
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.HaysDesign.com__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!J11TiN_55e8OMSPk6aP8503jChfNmYh-je2YguSomALgjQyTiV2yGFJbU4Ljhx-Nt_LY$
  
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 >
11 Circle Dr
Castleton NY 12033-9526

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Archives locat

Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Dennis Hays]

Way back in the dark ages, when FrameMaker was first ported to Windows, 
I worked with a FM staff member, Mercedes (still fondly remember her), 
to address bugs and issues. She sent me updates via overnight courier 
and these were multiple disk sets, calling for a fresh install. The 
reason I remember her name is because we talked almost daily and 
installation disks arrived weekly or more until the issue count dropped.


Of course, I don't expect this level of customer service anymore from 
any software publisher, but through the years I have had bits and pieces 
of exemplary support. On a contract to bring a trade book to press, I 
worked with Dov over the phone as to why illustrations with schematics 
wouldn't reproduce lines. and this from the printer's site in Michigan. 
More recently, I worked with Adobe to resolve an issue where importing 
and converting a MS Word document crashed FrameMaker (MS Word Track 
Changes caused the problem - this was last year).


I am not happy with the subscription model as I believe it's an 
egregious affront to hold the software hostage when missing a 
subscription payment. From a business point of view, it's a cash flow 
solution, reducing the seasonal vagaries of software sales. But it's not 
customer-centric.  And this is a problem.


A while back, someone on this forum mentioned difficulty finding a 
FrameMaker manual. I have a 1241 page Adobe PDF version dated June 1, 
2021 on the cover page. It's a 46MB file, but if anyone wants a copy, 
I'll post it where it can be downloaded.


Dennis Hays
Ex-Publisher of the now-extinct InFrame Magazine


Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote on 10/20/2021 7:54 AM:

Dear Wim,

I do think Adobe reads this list, at least from time to time. So it is
IMNSHO essential that we discuss, not only the day-to-day problems we are
facing in our tasks with FM but also its pros and cons. I for one welcome
the discussion of the attitude that Adobe seems to show regarding
development, pricing, etc. of FrameMaker. I am of the view that Adobe is
(intentionally?) making it less of a competitor to InDesign by refusing to
add features that ID has and we have asked for to be added to FM. If they
did, and if they would enable you freely to add spell checker and
hyphenation for your language of choice, FM would be the absolutely best
tool for writing, editing, publishing any kind of literature. Then even I
would pay for upgrades. Until then I am not upgrading. I can do with older
versions quite easily.

Kind regards,
Bodvar Bjorgvinsson (retired)
Iceland.




--
DENNIS
Hays
Quantum Mechanic



+1 518.779.2322
dennis.h...@haysdesign.com
www.HaysDesign.com 
11 Circle Dr
Castleton NY 12033-9526

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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

Dear Wim,

I do think Adobe reads this list, at least from time to time. So it is
IMNSHO essential that we discuss, not only the day-to-day problems we are
facing in our tasks with FM but also its pros and cons. I for one welcome
the discussion of the attitude that Adobe seems to show regarding
development, pricing, etc. of FrameMaker. I am of the view that Adobe is
(intentionally?) making it less of a competitor to InDesign by refusing to
add features that ID has and we have asked for to be added to FM. If they
did, and if they would enable you freely to add spell checker and
hyphenation for your language of choice, FM would be the absolutely best
tool for writing, editing, publishing any kind of literature. Then even I
would pay for upgrades. Until then I am not upgrading. I can do with older
versions quite easily.

Kind regards,
Bodvar Bjorgvinsson (retired)
Iceland.




þri., 19. okt. 2021 kl. 19:19 skrifaði Wim iDTP :

> Hi all,
>
> can we go back to where this list is ment for: help eachother out with
> FrameMaker issues.
>
> If you don’t use FM (anymore) or don’t like FM (anymore) or don’t want to
> pay for FM (anymore) - that’s up to you.
>
> This list is for FrameMaker users. Let’s stick to that.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
>
> Wim Hooghwinkel
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Shmuel Wolfson]

The advantage of talking about what we don't like, is that hopefully 
they will fix the issues. It's not just to blow off steam.



On 19-Oct-21 10:24 AM, Wim iDTP wrote:

Hi all,

can we go back to where this list is ment for: help eachother out with 
FrameMaker issues.

If you don’t use FM (anymore) or don’t like FM (anymore) or don’t want to pay 
for FM (anymore) - that’s up to you.

This list is for FrameMaker users. Let’s stick to that.

Thanks!


Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
  
Wim Hooghwinkel



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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Art Campbell]

Since I've only used FrameMaker and this list and others list it since the
FrameMaker 2 release sometime back in the 1990s, I may not be as qualified
as you in deciding what is acceptable list content...

But I have a strong feeling that FrameMaker's usability, both for a given
task and usability as a tool; changes that have made it less usable or
suitable; and cost increases and changes all are significant FrameMaker
issues.
If these add up to enough reasons that FrameMaker is unprofitable for Adobe
to publish, there isn't going to be a FrameMaker to bitch about. They need
to be brought forward and to Adobe's attention, as much as the few Adobe
employees following the list can read them.

So I submit that all topics that have surface are more than suitable for
the list -- because they are written by FrameMaker users or former users
who care enough to share their opinions in this forum.

Cheers,
Art

Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 3:19 PM Wim iDTP  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> can we go back to where this list is ment for: help eachother out with
> FrameMaker issues.
>
> If you don’t use FM (anymore) or don’t like FM (anymore) or don’t want to
> pay for FM (anymore) - that’s up to you.
>
> This list is for FrameMaker users. Let’s stick to that.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
>
> Wim Hooghwinkel
>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
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Re: [Framers] Contents of Framers digest... Why so many of us feel the way we do....

[Wim iDTP]

Hi all,

can we go back to where this list is ment for: help eachother out with 
FrameMaker issues.

If you don’t use FM (anymore) or don’t like FM (anymore) or don’t want to pay 
for FM (anymore) - that’s up to you. 

This list is for FrameMaker users. Let’s stick to that.

Thanks!


Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
 
Wim Hooghwinkel


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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Thanks! I couldn't agree with you more! :thumbsup

And years ago, I think it was even less than $400 to upgrade - heck the cost of 
a license was around that much (although this may be wishful recollection on my 
part! )

Z

Shmuel Wolfson said:
> At one point it was $400 to upgrade up to two versions back. That was 
> reasonable. Every few years I would ask my employer to upgrade. Then the 
> price shot up to $400 for one version back, $600 for two versions back, and 
> full price after that. That's when I just gave up and said I'll stick with 
> the version I have now until (perhaps) forever. It would be nice to have some 
> of the new features, but I can't justify the expense.
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Robert Lauriston]

I suspect the main reason Adobe did not discontinue FrameMaker 20
years ago and has continued to sell it is the significant revenue
streams from large customers such as Boeing who built complex
toolchains using structured FrameMaker and the Framemaker development
kit.
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Shmuel Wolfson]

At one point it was $400 to upgrade up to two versions back. That was 
reasonable. Every few years I would ask my employer to upgrade. Then the 
price shot up to $400 for one version back, $600 for two versions back, 
and full price after that. That's when I just gave up and said I'll 
stick with the version I have now until (perhaps) forever. It would be 
nice to have some of the new features, but I can't justify the expense.


If they are going to charge a lot, they should really try hard to make 
their users happy, which apparently they are not.



On 18-Oct-21 9:34 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

The current $360 annual subscription price is lower than the old
annual maintenance charge, which was 50% of the cost for a new
license.

On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 12:27 AM Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:

... I think when Adobe charged less for upgrades people had more tolerance
for Adobe not fixing bugs. ...

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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Craig, Alison GLI/CA]

But how many people actually bought maintenance? 

And how many writers or employers updated every time a new version was 
released? 

This was - and is - an expensive piece of software with absolutely terrible 
support - especially when you consider that almost every installation and/or 
authorisation issue is caused by Adobe?

Alison 

++

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 11:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

The current $360 annual subscription price is lower than the old
annual maintenance charge, which was 50% of the cost for a new
license.

On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 12:27 AM Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:
>
> ... I think when Adobe charged less for upgrades people had more tolerance
> for Adobe not fixing bugs. ...
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Robert Lauriston]

The current $360 annual subscription price is lower than the old
annual maintenance charge, which was 50% of the cost for a new
license.

On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 12:27 AM Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:
>
> ... I think when Adobe charged less for upgrades people had more tolerance
> for Adobe not fixing bugs. ...
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Shmuel Wolfson]

I think the general feeling of those who are upset at Adobe, is that 
Adobe seems to feel:
"We are the best. Nothing else comes close. So we can charge whatever we 
want and ignore your request for bug fixes."


Does that about sum it up?

I think when Adobe charged less for upgrades people had more tolerance 
for Adobe not fixing bugs. But if they are going to charge a lot, they 
should also give a lot in terms of what existing customers want, 
including bug fixes and specific features that customers asked for - not 
just new features that they feel will bring them new customers.


--
Shmuel Wolfson

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Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 187, Issue 7-. Re: Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Orly Zimmerman]

HI All, 
I've been monitoring this conversation and just wanted to chime in... 

I don't mean to disregard your complaints at all - but, I personally haven't 
had any serious problems with FM. 
I had a very annoying FM-to-PDF problem a few months ago.  The Adobe engineers 
reached out to me  and helped me solve it. 

I only recently returned to using FM about 2 years ago after about a 4-yr 
hiatus. My company bought it based on the engineers requests - before I even 
got there. 
 Prior to those 4 years, my company dealt with all installation problems and 
they obviously footed all upgrade bills. 

Now that I'm at a startup I had thought about using LaTeX for a bit - since 
it's free and the engineers like that as well as Markdown. LaTeX would be a 
learning curve. That is, I would need to learn how to create a book from a 
number of files, use X-refs, variables and conditions the way we use in FM, if 
they exist at all. 

While I don't think it's worth my time, it might be worth my time if we needed 
online help - because those same LaTeX files would be able to be used as the 
files for the basis of a static site generator for online help.

For now - our customers are used to getting PDFs and are happy with the output. 
So I'm happy with FM - it's still the simplest, yet most robust and stable 
option I have for creating books. 

Regards, 
Orly 
--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 00:00:20 +
From: Syed Zaeem Hosain 
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about
Adobe
Message-ID:



Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Well ... I don't bash FrameMaker because of its capabilities, but I do bash 
them for the upgrade pricing changes over the years.

For me to see the benefits of stability that Reng Winfried says is now 
available (since FM 7), would require paying for a full FM license - eek!

Of course, I do not like subscription models ... this last evolution guarantees 
that I will not update from FM 12. When that stops working for whatever reason, 
*good*! I am not using it much anymore anyway ...



To answer your other question, yes, I have an alternative ... works "for my 
purposes". I emphasize "for my purposes" since it is not for everybody, of 
course!

My current flow is LaTeX using the TeXStudio editor. 

Not WYSISYG, but ... one click gets me PDF output in a window on the side. 
*And*, I can click on the PDF, and TeXstudio opens the *specific* file with the 
LaTeX source, and puts my cursor right where I need it!

Consistent output? Yes. Many people have provided all the necessary add-ons for 
just about any standardized technical format that you might ever want.

Large books? Yes. No issues with multiple-hundred-page documents for me. I keep 
my chapters and re-usable text paragraphs in separate source files, so they can 
be re-used in other "books" too.

Variables? Of course! Defined at the top level or wherever, and these can be 
over-ridden in a given source file for local use. 

Equations? Beautiful! but you do have to spend a tiny amount of time learning 
how. After that curve (it is not tough), LaTeX and TeX have better equation 
output than *any* other tool I have ever seen ... for technical documents, this 
is perfect!

Tables? Yes. But you do have to get used to doing them without WYSIWYG ... the 
rapid PDF generation is what makes it work for me!

Help files? I do not know. I have not tried creating these from LaTeX at all 
(since I don't need them), but I would be surprised if this is difficult to 
make happen!

And, best of all, the price is right: my current flow is FREE ... ?

Z

P.S. My latest infuriating issue is Acrobat Pro. Which seems to want to check 
its license status with Adobe far too often, does not "get through" to whatever 
system it is trying to reach, and stops working till I restart my computer or 
reboot my router or stop using it for a while! 

This is helping me move to FlexiPDF faster ... frankly, the next time that 
Acrobat Pro stops, it will no longer be the default tool selected in Windows 
for PDF files.

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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Robert Lauriston]

Circa 1981 Charles Corfield pitched his idea for an
"industrial-strength WYSIWYG word processor" to Sun, which lent him a
workstation.

https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/framemaker/whitepapers/25_Years_of_Adobe_Framemaker.pdf

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:00 AM Peter Gold  wrote:
>
> ... IIRC, the original proposals for FM were made by language-oriented folks
> seeking ways to *process* *language* with computers, rather than engineers
> looking for cool stuff to program. ...
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Robert Lauriston]

Flare's arguably the best alternative to FrameMaker. If your .fm files
are formatted consistently, little or no cleanup may be required after
import.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:49 PM Caroline Tabach
 wrote:
>
> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Robert Lauriston]

You can't buy FrameMaker any more. Subscription only. $360 a  year is
quite cheap compared with other tools. I'm paying a little over $3,000
a year for Paligo. Flare is $2,000.

PDF's still a customer requirement for many products, but the other
single-sourcing tools I've used all produce professional-looking PDFs.
Occasionally I use the Organize Pages view in Acrobat and skim for bad
page breaks and code listings / tables that go past the right margin.
Last time I checked there were no problems.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:59 AM Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:

> ... My biggest gripe with FM is the price, but you know what, you really
> don't need to buy every new version that comes out. ...
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Well ... I don't bash FrameMaker because of its capabilities, but I do bash 
them for the upgrade pricing changes over the years.

For me to see the benefits of stability that Reng Winfried says is now 
available (since FM 7), would require paying for a full FM license - eek!

Of course, I do not like subscription models ... this last evolution guarantees 
that I will not update from FM 12. When that stops working for whatever reason, 
*good*! I am not using it much anymore anyway ...



To answer your other question, yes, I have an alternative ... works "for my 
purposes". I emphasize "for my purposes" since it is not for everybody, of 
course!

My current flow is LaTeX using the TeXStudio editor. 

Not WYSISYG, but ... one click gets me PDF output in a window on the side. 
*And*, I can click on the PDF, and TeXstudio opens the *specific* file with the 
LaTeX source, and puts my cursor right where I need it!

Consistent output? Yes. Many people have provided all the necessary add-ons for 
just about any standardized technical format that you might ever want.

Large books? Yes. No issues with multiple-hundred-page documents for me. I keep 
my chapters and re-usable text paragraphs in separate source files, so they can 
be re-used in other "books" too.

Variables? Of course! Defined at the top level or wherever, and these can be 
over-ridden in a given source file for local use. 

Equations? Beautiful! but you do have to spend a tiny amount of time learning 
how. After that curve (it is not tough), LaTeX and TeX have better equation 
output than *any* other tool I have ever seen ... for technical documents, this 
is perfect!

Tables? Yes. But you do have to get used to doing them without WYSIWYG ... the 
rapid PDF generation is what makes it work for me!

Help files? I do not know. I have not tried creating these from LaTeX at all 
(since I don't need them), but I would be surprised if this is difficult to 
make happen!

And, best of all, the price is right: my current flow is FREE ... 

Z

P.S. My latest infuriating issue is Acrobat Pro. Which seems to want to check 
its license status with Adobe far too often, does not "get through" to whatever 
system it is trying to reach, and stops working till I restart my computer or 
reboot my router or stop using it for a while! 

This is helping me move to FlexiPDF faster ... frankly, the next time that 
Acrobat Pro stops, it will no longer be the default tool selected in Windows 
for PDF files.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+syed.hosain=aeris@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 2:00 AM
To: Framers List 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

I don't know why everyone likes bashing FrameMaker.

Is there anything else that:
• Is suitable for long books.
• Gives you PDF output as is appears while you are working (WYSIWYG).
• Can be converted to online help, (even if it requires buying an extra 
program).

FM happens to have online help conversion built-in, but I could live without 
that if that was another decent authoring tool that worked together with 
another decently priced conversion tool.

Word comes close to checking all those boxes, but has problems with large files 
and other issues.

Someone mention another page layout program recently, but I forgot what it was. 
Maybe it was Xara Page & Layout Designer. But can it do online help at all?

Please post if you know of another authoring tool that is excellent for PDFs 
and can be used for online help.

My biggest gripe with FM is the price, but you know what, you really don't need 
to buy every new version that comes out. Do you buy every new smartphone that 
comes out, or wait until you need a new phone? Anyone under 20 is excluded from 
answering that question :)

--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

Matt's stuff has saved my bacon more times than I count w/ the newest
release of RH, and w/ the newest releases of FM. I am using FM2019 because I
really absolutely did not need any of the bells and whistles that keep being
added to FM after FM12, and I would have gladly had FM12 pried out of my
cold, dead hands if given a choice, but alas. . . support for FM12 is no
longer possible w/ ePub from Webworks, so I had to suck it up and upgrade,
but I dug my heels in and paid for a perpetual license (w/out any upgrade
cost consideration).



Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Lin Sims
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 6:10 AM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Matt has published Working with Content 2020, which is for the most recent
> version of Frame. It's based on the Scriptorium Using FrameMaker 8, and
it's
> pretty helpful. I do recommend it if you're sick of the online help.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:33 PM  wrote:
> 
> > I will say among the many things that annoy about Adobe, the one that
> > really, really annoys me is that it purports itself to be a technical
> > communication company, yet after around FM 6.0, the absolutely
> > FANTASTIC User guides that they produced to support the use of their
> > products just when down the tubes . . .zip, zilch, nada for how many
> > years now? I still have my very dog-eared, tattered Frame bibles that
> > were sent w/ FM 5.5.6,
> > 6.0 and 7.0 and they are my life-savers to this day when I need to
> > remember how to do something that I haven't done in a long time.
> > Nowadays, you're left to hunting and pecking out on the web, hoping
> > like H*LL that someone in a forum has had the same problem asked and
> > answered, or that in Adobe's lame excuse for Online documentation for
> > any product, that you find a hint of what you need.
> >
> > I was stuck using RH2019 WAY before it was ready for prime time a few
> > years ago and if it weren't for Matt Sullivan's class, and the support
> > of Peter Grainger, and Surbhi Maheshwari directly from Adobe, I would
> > have just slit my wrists and it shouldn't have had to be like that at
all.
> > Adobe's online "documentation" was so lame - grossly incomplete, flat
> > out wrong in places, missing critical information. How on earth did
> > they expect anyone to be able to use a brand new product w/out any
> > decent user documentation - by osmosis or serendipitously?
> >
> > And yes, I agree - Adobe has D*MNED good products that meet the needs
> > of projects unlike any other product, but w/out competent and timely
> > support - either the human kind or the user guide kind - it doesn't
> > matter. If you can't use the product the correct way and to its
> > fullest extent, what's the point?
> >
> > Tammy Van Boening
> > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> 
> 
> --
> Lin Sims
> ___
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Lynne A. Price]

Sean,

   The binary data in a FrameMaker file identifies the version of 
FrameMaker used to create the file. Each version of FrameMaker can open 
files created in that version and earlier, but not files created in a 
later version. In particular, FM 2019 cannot open files created in FM 
2020, regardless of whether those files use any FM 2020 features that 
were not available in earlier versions.


   Each version of FM can save files as previous versions. Save As has 
an option for the immediately preceding version. In particular, you can 
open one of your FM 2020 files, and select Document 2019 from Save As's 
Type pull-down menu to convert the file to 2019. That might be practical 
if you only have a few files; it is a pain for a large number. An FM 
2020 script or plugin can convert a large number of files and can 
convert to earlier versions than the immediately preceding one. Of 
course, any use of FM 2020 features that didn't exist in the output 
version can't be preserved.w


  https://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/features.html (which you 
can reach from the New Features button on the FM 2020 Welcome Screen) 
describes what's new in FM 2020.


    --Lynne

On 10/14/2021 10:27 AM, techwordsm...@gmail.com wrote:

The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
open 2020 files?


--
Lynne A. Price
Text Structure Consulting, Inc.
Specializing in structured FrameMaker consulting, application development, and 
training
lpr...@txstruct.comhttp://www.txstruct.com
voice/fax: (510) 583-1505  cell phone: (510) 421-2284

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Lin Sims]

They gave you a link to the latest general release. Only participants in
the beta program get to download beta versions. :D

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:19 PM  wrote:

> Well, you are right. I now have FrameMaker 16 (2020), Adobe tech support
> gave me the link, but I have no idea if it is actually released or if I
> have
> a beta. Nobody said anything.
>
> The vendor was told to use FrameMaker 2019 and made a mistake and sent 2020
> files. I don't know if they are part of a beta or not. I was expecting 2019
> files, which I can open, so didn't ask for MIF.
>
> This opens more questions than those I originally asked  Anyone in the
> know, feel free to chime in.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sean
>


-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Lin Sims]

Matt has published Working with Content 2020, which is for the most recent
version of Frame. It's based on the Scriptorium Using FrameMaker 8, and
it's pretty helpful. I do recommend it if you're sick of the online help.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:33 PM  wrote:

> I will say among the many things that annoy about Adobe, the one that
> really, really annoys me is that it purports itself to be a technical
> communication company, yet after around FM 6.0, the absolutely FANTASTIC
> User guides that they produced to support the use of their products just
> when down the tubes . . .zip, zilch, nada for how many years now? I still
> have my very dog-eared, tattered Frame bibles that were sent w/ FM 5.5.6,
> 6.0 and 7.0 and they are my life-savers to this day when I need to remember
> how to do something that I haven't done in a long time. Nowadays, you're
> left to hunting and pecking out on the web, hoping like H*LL that someone
> in a forum has had the same problem asked and answered, or that in Adobe's
> lame excuse for Online documentation for any product, that you find a hint
> of what you need.
>
> I was stuck using RH2019 WAY before it was ready for prime time a few
> years ago and if it weren't for Matt Sullivan's class, and the support of
> Peter Grainger, and Surbhi Maheshwari directly from Adobe, I would have
> just slit my wrists and it shouldn't have had to be like that at all.
> Adobe's online "documentation" was so lame - grossly incomplete, flat out
> wrong in places, missing critical information. How on earth did they expect
> anyone to be able to use a brand new product w/out any decent user
> documentation - by osmosis or serendipitously?
>
> And yes, I agree - Adobe has D*MNED good products that meet the needs of
> projects unlike any other product, but w/out competent and timely support -
> either the human kind or the user guide kind - it doesn't matter. If you
> can't use the product the correct way and to its fullest extent, what's the
> point?
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com


-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[chris . samoranski]

I used Broadvision Quicksilver for quite a while until 2015’ish.  Basically a 
Windows-based version of Interleaf.  It was very useful, and working with their 
tech team was terrific.  What changes they’ve made these past six years or so 
should be significant.  Interleaf was definitely the Gold Standard and I 
suspect early FrameMaker was developed using many of it’s features.

Chris Samoranski
On Oct 14, 2021, 13:03 -0700, Steve Rickaby , wrote:
> At 13:24 -0400 14/10/21, Lin Sims wrote:
>
> > Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.
>
> So I've heard - but does anyone use it?
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

I will say among the many things that annoy about Adobe, the one that really, 
really annoys me is that it purports itself to be a technical communication 
company, yet after around FM 6.0, the absolutely FANTASTIC User guides that 
they produced to support the use of their products just when down the tubes . . 
.zip, zilch, nada for how many years now? I still have my very dog-eared, 
tattered Frame bibles that were sent w/ FM 5.5.6, 6.0 and 7.0 and they are my 
life-savers to this day when I need to remember how to do something that I 
haven't done in a long time. Nowadays, you're left to hunting and pecking out 
on the web, hoping like H*LL that someone in a forum has had the same problem 
asked and answered, or that in Adobe's lame excuse for Online documentation for 
any product, that you find a hint of what you need.

I was stuck using RH2019 WAY before it was ready for prime time a few years ago 
and if it weren't for Matt Sullivan's class, and the support of Peter Grainger, 
and Surbhi Maheshwari directly from Adobe, I would have just slit my wrists and 
it shouldn't have had to be like that at all. Adobe's online "documentation" 
was so lame - grossly incomplete, flat out wrong in places, missing critical 
information. How on earth did they expect anyone to be able to use a brand new 
product w/out any decent user documentation - by osmosis or serendipitously? 

And yes, I agree - Adobe has D*MNED good products that meet the needs of 
projects unlike any other product, but w/out competent and timely support - 
either the human kind or the user guide kind - it doesn't matter. If you can't 
use the product the correct way and to its fullest extent, what's the point?

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 4:19 PM
> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Amen!!!
> 
> TVB
> 
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Craig, Alison GLI/CA
> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 11:15 AM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > IMO, Adobe treats us as open wallets from which to extract more and
> > more money - but they deal only reluctantly with our support issues
> > (you have to be *very* persistent) and (almost) never fix the actual
> > problem. (How many of you have searched the web for an "Adobe
> > solution" and come across a bunch of forums with reams of the same
> > complaint as yours, and the complaints date back 5, 7, 12 or more
> > years?)
> >
> > I've also had the "unhelpful and/or hours-on-hold support" issue with
> > other products (Creative Suite, anyone?) and don't get me started on
> > the dog poo they call "Adobe Digital Editions", which they refuse to
> > fix and also refuse to support. Yes, I know ADE is free, but do it right or
> don't do it at all.
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+acraig=greenlightinnovation@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:47 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories
> > on forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went
> > straight to frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.
> >
> > Now I am in a place which is not using Frame
> >
> > Caroline Tabach
> >
> > On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:
> >
> > > Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> > > started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite
> > > (TCS,
> > > 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue,
> > > but apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then
> > > and has s

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

Amen!!!

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Craig, Alison GLI/CA
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 11:15 AM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> IMO, Adobe treats us as open wallets from which to extract more and more
> money - but they deal only reluctantly with our support issues (you have to
> be *very* persistent) and (almost) never fix the actual problem. (How many
> of you have searched the web for an "Adobe solution" and come across a
> bunch of forums with reams of the same complaint as yours, and the
> complaints date back 5, 7, 12 or more years?)
> 
> I've also had the "unhelpful and/or hours-on-hold support" issue with other
> products (Creative Suite, anyone?) and don't get me started on the dog poo
> they call "Adobe Digital Editions", which they refuse to fix and also refuse 
> to
> support. Yes, I know ADE is free, but do it right or don't do it at all.
> 
> Alison
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+acraig=greenlightinnovation@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:47 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories on
> forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went straight to
> frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.
> 
> Now I am in a place which is not using Frame
> 
> Caroline Tabach
> 
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:
> 
> > Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> > started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite
> > (TCS,
> > 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue,
> > but apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then
> > and has stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that
> > I referred to TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
> >
> > I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> > . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down
> > to bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not
> > the only one who suffered such a fate. . .
> >
> > Tammy Van Boening
> > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!Oq50
> > -tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-
> UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2ORHqEap0
> > GTOUFa$
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Framers  > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > > 
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > >
> > > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago
> > > > when I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was
> > > > lamenting about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was
> > > > that a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov
> > > > "When in the H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > > >
> > > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and
> > > > that is sad.
> > > >
> > > > TVB
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!
> > > > Oq50-tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-
> UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2
> > > > ORHqEap0GTOUFa$
> > > >
> > > >
> >

Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Craig, Alison GLI/CA]

Absolutely the LSP should return the finished product using the same software 
version.

I would make a (nice) complaint so that this doesn't happen again - or to other 
clients.

Alison 


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Peter Gold
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 10:51 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
Possibly an NDA violation?

Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?

Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator
> in
> a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I found
> was 2020.
>
>
>
> I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
> despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
>
>
>
> Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
> URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
> installed it.
>
>
>
> The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
> version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
> have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
> open 2020 files?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> ___
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Craig, Alison GLI/CA]

IMO, Adobe treats us as open wallets from which to extract more and more money 
- but they deal only reluctantly with our support issues (you have to be *very* 
persistent) and (almost) never fix the actual problem. (How many of you have 
searched the web for an "Adobe solution" and come across a bunch of forums with 
reams of the same complaint as yours, and the complaints date back 5, 7, 12 or 
more years?)

I've also had the "unhelpful and/or hours-on-hold support" issue with other 
products (Creative Suite, anyone?) and don't get me started on the dog poo they 
call "Adobe Digital Editions", which they refuse to fix and also refuse to 
support. Yes, I know ADE is free, but do it right or don't do it at all. 

Alison


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:47 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users 
"feel" the way we do about Adobe

Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories on
forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went straight to
frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.

Now I am in a place which is not using Frame

Caroline Tabach

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:

> Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS,
> 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but
> apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has
> stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to
> TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
>
> I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to
> bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only
> one who suffered such a fate. . .
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!Oq50-tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2ORHqEap0GTOUFa$
>  
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when
> > > I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting
> > > about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that
> > > a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the
> > > H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > >
> > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that
> > > is sad.
> > >
> > > TVB
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!Oq50-tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2ORHqEap0GTOUFa$
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Framers  > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> 

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Lin Sims]

They must, or it wouldn't still be being updated and sold.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 4:03 PM Steve Rickaby 
wrote:

> At 13:24 -0400 14/10/21, Lin Sims wrote:
>
> >Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.
>
> So I've heard - but does anyone use it?
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[techwordsmith]

Well, you are right. I now have FrameMaker 16 (2020), Adobe tech support
gave me the link, but I have no idea if it is actually released or if I have
a beta. Nobody said anything.

The vendor was told to use FrameMaker 2019 and made a mistake and sent 2020
files. I don't know if they are part of a beta or not. I was expecting 2019
files, which I can open, so didn't ask for MIF.

This opens more questions than those I originally asked  Anyone in the
know, feel free to chime in.

Cheers,

Sean



-Original Message-
From: Framers 
On Behalf Of Peter Gold
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 1:51 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
Possibly an NDA violation?

Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?

Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a 
> translator in a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was 
> FM 16, which I found was 2020.
>
>
>
> I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, 
> etc., despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
>
>
>
> Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a 
> secret URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, 
> downloaded it, and installed it.
>
>
>
> The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as 
> version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. 
> Anyone have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 
> 2019 cannot open 2020 files?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Steve Rickaby]

At 13:24 -0400 14/10/21, Lin Sims wrote:

>Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.

So I've heard - but does anyone use it?

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Lin Sims]

The current version of FrameMaker is 16.03.979. It was released last
July/August and has had 3 updates so far.

Frame's update function is busticated, but that seems to be an issue with
Adobe's website. You have to download it from the trial page. As long as
you're subscribed, it should install just fine.

Every now and again I yell at people in the ACP program or the TCS support
about how busted the download and update on the website are. The link from
your account page to update Frame still, after 3 years (at least) takes you
to the update page for Creative Cloud!

Generally speaking, most of the updates were for DITA but there were some
nice things added for us non-structured people. There's a navigation pane
now that can be used to navigate within a document. Right now it's
file-based, but there's hope that they'll be adding book-level navigation
soon. They've also added a utility you can use to split files down into
multiple files based on a tag name. It has XLIFF capability for translation
services, although that requires use of structured/DITA. And it FINALLY has
a button for converting selected text to sentence case. ;-) They also added
buttons to remove a row or column from a table, which has proven useful.

https://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/features.html



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:50 PM Peter Gold 
wrote:

> Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
> Possibly an NDA violation?
>
> Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?
>
> Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
> was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> >
> >
> > I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator
> > in
> > a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I
> found
> > was 2020.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
> > despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
> > URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
> > installed it.
> >
> >
> >
> > The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
> > version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
> > have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
> > open 2020 files?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> > Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> > Archives located at
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
> >
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>


-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Peter Gold]

Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
Possibly an NDA violation?

Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?

Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator
> in
> a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I found
> was 2020.
>
>
>
> I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
> despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
>
>
>
> Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
> URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
> installed it.
>
>
>
> The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
> version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
> have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
> open 2020 files?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Lin Sims]

Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.

https://broadvision.com/products/quicksilver/quicksilver-overview/

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:24 PM Steve Rickaby 
wrote:

> At 16:55 -0600 12/10/21,  wrote:
>
> I tend to agree: all software eventually 'dies' as technology moves on.
> Look at Interleaf, for example. But with the cost and effort required to
> rewrite FrameMaker from scratch, including structure support, I don't see
> it happening. In theory, though, it can be done incrementally, using code
> refactoring.
>
> There is a maybe bright light on the horizon for us old folk. I read that
> Cobol programmers can command astronomical fees these days to keep
> 'essential' banking software alive. Just an idea... :-)
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Peter Gold]

A good reason NOT to speed-read technically-dense material, is that one
tends to take humor seriously. For example, I'm imagining recalling retired
engineers refactoring original FM code into COBOL!  :)


Thanks for the image, Steve!

IIRC, the original proposals for FM were made by language-oriented folks
seeking ways to *process* *language* with computers, rather than engineers
looking for cool stuff to program.

Technical writing is a hybrid of  language and an underlying system to
revise and manipulate it. Those who are good at practicing it, can't help
but want it to continuously improve while serving its purpose, just as they
do.



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:23 AM Steve Rickaby 
wrote:

At 16:55 -0600 12/10/21,  wrote:

>I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
>thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
>hates their customers. . .

I think that was me.

Long time past, I took a great many textbooks directly to press using
FrameMaker and PDF as a pre-press format. Problems were few and solvable,
and the only time I had to have recourse to FrameMaker support was in 1997,
when an author, who had written his ms in Frame, had managed to create
massive equations that would not 'fold'. These jobs included more than one
using structure FrameMaker.

All that was in FrameMaker version 7. Judging by what I read here, things
don't seem to have improved much since Adobe hived FrameMaker off to India.

At 19:43 + 13/10/21, nuhDEEN wrote:

>However, the effort and expense to maintain the FM might be better spent
on developing a completely new underlying software design that seems to
work the same from a user's point-of-view

I tend to agree: all software eventually 'dies' as technology moves on.
Look at Interleaf, for example. But with the cost and effort required to
rewrite FrameMaker from scratch, including structure support, I don't see
it happening. In theory, though, it can be done incrementally, using code
refactoring.

There is a maybe bright light on the horizon for us old folk. I read that
Cobol programmers can command astronomical fees these days to keep
'essential' banking software alive. Just an idea... :-)

--
Steve
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Steve Rickaby]

At 16:55 -0600 12/10/21,  wrote:

>I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
>thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
>hates their customers. . .

I think that was me.

Long time past, I took a great many textbooks directly to press using 
FrameMaker and PDF as a pre-press format. Problems were few and solvable, and 
the only time I had to have recourse to FrameMaker support was in 1997, when an 
author, who had written his ms in Frame, had managed to create massive 
equations that would not 'fold'. These jobs included more than one using 
structure FrameMaker.

All that was in FrameMaker version 7. Judging by what I read here, things don't 
seem to have improved much since Adobe hived FrameMaker off to India.

At 19:43 + 13/10/21, nuhDEEN wrote:

>However, the effort and expense to maintain the FM might be better spent on 
>developing a completely new underlying software design that seems to work the 
>same from a user's point-of-view

I tend to agree: all software eventually 'dies' as technology moves on. Look at 
Interleaf, for example. But with the cost and effort required to rewrite 
FrameMaker from scratch, including structure support, I don't see it happening. 
In theory, though, it can be done incrementally, using code refactoring.

There is a maybe bright light on the horizon for us old folk. I read that Cobol 
programmers can command astronomical fees these days to keep 'essential' 
banking software alive. Just an idea... :-)

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Klaus Daube]

On 13 Oct 2021 at 14:21, Peter Gold wrote:

> In the old days, Adobe had beta-test (AKA pre-release) programs, for which
> interested volunteers who represent a range of users from single-person
> business to large enterprises with multiple seats, could apply. Is there a
> FM beta-test program now? Is anyone on this list in the program? 

Hello Peter,
Yes, there is still a beta test program, and some people on this list 
(including me) 
are (semi-) active in that program.
It is not that Adobe does nothing, but at least for me (I'm not in real 
business any 
more, fully retired) essential things aka old bugs are not targetted in the 
desired 
manner. Obviously the focus what FM shall do has changed and no more identical 
to my 
spot light...

Yes, one of the nastiest areas where I had complained many times and needed 
help from 
Adobe experts is realted to installation and licensing. I know, my situation is 
strange, as I have installed (and running on Win10) FM-6 ... 16. And yes, I'm 
not a fan 
at all of subscriptions and cloud. I want to 'own' software...

Klaus

~~~
Klaus Daube Phone:  +41-44-381 37 77
Schäracher 11   Mail:   kl...@daube.ch
CH-8053 Zürich  Web:www.daube.ch


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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Peter Gold]

Affinity Publisher lacks FM- and iD- technical-authoring tools, like
x-refs, hierarchical running H/Fs, multi-file books.

The Serif AP user forum reveals that footnotes were added after being
requested. This stirs optimism that other feature requests will be
fulfilled ... in due time.

Requests for FM table rows and footnotes that can split across text frame
boundaries likewise ... in due time.

Some features are essential to delivering projects. Some aren't.

The ability to meet deadlines and requirements rules one's choice of
professional tools ... in real time.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:17 AM Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:

> Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for
> cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems
> like it is a feature thta they want to add. See
>
> https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902
>
> I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I
> couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would
> be an option for online help.
>
>
> On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> > Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it
> has a
> > lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> > much effort into using it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach <
> caroline.tab...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> >> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
> >>
> >> Can you tell me what it was?
> >>
> >> We need to put our docs online
> >>
> >> Caroline Tabach
> >> ___
> >>
> >> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >>
> >> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[nuhDEEN]

 If you have the option of porting to a different authoring system for your 
source docs, I've long been a fan (and MVP) of WebWorks ePublisher. It's very 
flexible and you can create multiple outputs.
Nadine
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 11:07:00 a.m. EDT, Caroline Tabach 
 wrote:  
 
 After leaving Framemaker (which I worked with for about 20 years!), I arrived 
at a company which publishes everything directly to the web using Document360. 
But this doesn't do everything I want, so I am looking into different options, 
to publish to the web, create PDF files if required, as well as make a html 5 
help file.
So I am looking for something else 
Happy to hear ideas offline
Caroline Tabach
On Thu, 14 Oct 2021, 16:08 nuhDEEN,  wrote:

 Caroline, what are you using now to create your source docs?
Nadine
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:34:23 a.m. EDT, Shmuel Wolfson 
 wrote:  
 
 Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for 
cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems 
like it is a feature thta they want to add. See 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902

I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I 
couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would 
be an option for online help.


On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
> lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> much effort into using it.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
> wrote:
>
>> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
>> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
>>
>> Can you tell me what it was?
>>
>> We need to put our docs online
>>
>> Caroline Tabach
>> ___
>>
>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>>
>> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Caroline Tabach]

After leaving Framemaker (which I worked with for about 20 years!), I
arrived at a company which publishes everything directly to the web using
Document360.
But this doesn't do everything I want, so I am looking into different
options, to publish to the web, create PDF files if required, as well as
make a html 5 help file.

So I am looking for something else

Happy to hear ideas offline

Caroline Tabach

On Thu, 14 Oct 2021, 16:08 nuhDEEN,  wrote:

> Caroline, what are you using now to create your source docs?
>
> Nadine
>
> On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:34:23 a.m. EDT, Shmuel Wolfson <
> shmue...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for
> cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems
> like it is a feature thta they want to add. See
>
> https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902
>
> I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I
> couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would
> be an option for online help.
>
>
> On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> > Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it
> has a
> > lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> > much effort into using it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach <
> caroline.tab...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> >> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
> >>
> >> Can you tell me what it was?
> >>
> >> We need to put our docs online
> >>
> >> Caroline Tabach
> >> ___
> >>
> >> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >>
> >> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> >> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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>
> >>
> > ___
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[nuhDEEN]

 Caroline, what are you using now to create your source docs?
Nadine
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:34:23 a.m. EDT, Shmuel Wolfson 
 wrote:  
 
 Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for 
cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems 
like it is a feature thta they want to add. See 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902

I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I 
couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would 
be an option for online help.


On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
> lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> much effort into using it.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
> wrote:
>
>> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
>> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
>>
>> Can you tell me what it was?
>>
>> We need to put our docs online
>>
>> Caroline Tabach
>> ___
>>
>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>>
>> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
>> Archives located at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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>> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
>> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>>
> ___
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for 
cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems 
like it is a feature thta they want to add. See 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902


I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I 
couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would 
be an option for online help.



On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:

Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
much effort into using it.

Doug


On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
wrote:


Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
installation issues, so told a company to try something else.

Can you tell me what it was?

We need to put our docs online

Caroline Tabach
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[D B]

Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
much effort into using it.

Doug


On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
wrote:

> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
>
> Can you tell me what it was?
>
> We need to put our docs online
>
> Caroline Tabach
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
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>
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Shmuel Wolfson]

   To continue my previous email, I agree that if PDF is not an output you
   supply to the customers, than there are lots of good options out there
   that may be cheaper than FM and have other benefits. But there are
   plenty of products out there that still come with a PDF, or have one
   available if you go to their support page. I don't know how people can
   say that PDF is dead. I've never has a cellphone or a printer that I
   could not download it's manual. On the other hand, those type of
   products don't need online help, so you could use any page layout
   program for them. It could by that my company is someone unique in
   needed nice PDFs for most products, and online help for others.
   --
   Shmuel Wolfson
   Technical Writer
   058-763-7133
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Shmuel Wolfson]

I don't know why everyone likes bashing FrameMaker.

Is there anything else that:
• Is suitable for long books.
• Gives you PDF output as is appears while you are working (WYSIWYG).
• Can be converted to online help, (even if it requires buying an extra 
program).


FM happens to have online help conversion built-in, but I could live 
without that if that was another decent authoring tool that worked 
together with another decently priced conversion tool.


Word comes close to checking all those boxes, but has problems with 
large files and other issues.


Someone mention another page layout program recently, but I forgot what 
it was. Maybe it was Xara Page & Layout Designer. But can it do online 
help at all?


Please post if you know of another authoring tool that is excellent for 
PDFs and can be used for online help.


My biggest gripe with FM is the price, but you know what, you really 
don't need to buy every new version that comes out. Do you buy every new 
smartphone that comes out, or wait until you need a new phone? Anyone 
under 20 is excluded from answering that question :)


--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133

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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Reng Winfried]

Hi,

OK. I did not have such severe problems as some of you.
My impression is that Adobe and the FrameMaker development reacts 
much more quickly than "in the good old days", when there was no-one 
from Adobe to talk to. And at least now FrameMaker is as stable as
e.g. FM 7.
Adobe now also releases updates every some months to fix bugs and 
to add new features.
Some years ago there was nothing.

Yes. Everything can be better, but the situation is not as bad as some
of you imply.

Best regards

Winfried

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:55 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" 
the way we do about Adobe

Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an Adobe 
app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole Adobe takes me 
down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to Adobe, I lost a 
good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff. 

 

I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the thread 
from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe hates 
their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I LOVE Adobe 
products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that Adobe 
apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on their stuff when it 
comes to this.

 

Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe customer who is 
grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal w/ this cr*p for much longer.

 

Tammy Van Boening

Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com

www.spectrumwritingllc.com
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Caroline Tabach]

Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories on
forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went straight to
frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.

Now I am in a place which is not using Frame

Caroline Tabach

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:

> Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS,
> 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but
> apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has
> stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to
> TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
>
> I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to
> bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only
> one who suffered such a fate. . .
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when
> > > I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting
> > > about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that
> > > a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the
> > > H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > >
> > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that
> > > is sad.
> > >
> > > TVB
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Framers  > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > > Because every single solitary time that I have to
> > > > uninstall/reinstall an
> > > Adobe
> > > > app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole
> > > > Adobe
> > > takes me
> > > > down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to
> > > > Adobe, I
> > > lost
> > > > a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff.
> > > >
> > > > I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to
> > > > the
> > > thread
> > > > from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
> > > > hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I
> > > > LOVE
> > > Adobe
> > > > products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that
> > > > Adobe apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on
> > > > their stuff when it comes to this.
> > > >
> > > > Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe
> > > > customer who is grateful to be

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Peter Gold]

AFAIK, people didn't learn FM, InterLeaf, or *roff, in college courses back
in the day, in the same way they took courses in graphics, illustration,
and design software. FM users are usually technical authors, AKA
"information developers." At a recent InDesign user group meeting, I asked
how many in the room were authoring content in ID, and who were receiving
content in Word or other text formats and inserting it into their layouts.
NO authors! So, this may be one reason that Adobe is willing to bide time
until gen-FM goes extinct. IBM blew their early computing opportunity when
their research estimated the market to be around six machines in the whole
world, and in plain-paper copying, because there was none there was no
interest among potential users who saw no need.

It's interesting to see the de-evolution of technical publishing. Software
like FM "advanced" the industry to where a single individual wore the hats
of many different professionals - typesetter, designer, editor, indexer,
bookmaker. Now, the industry is dividing back to the form in which the
content creators - authors, editors, and other language specialists, are
separating from the visual, digital, and technical specialists. Old hats
are new again.

I've been migrating my FM writing habits to ID, for personal projects and
sheer doggedness. It's possible, but unless I'm as off-kilter as IBM had
been back in the dawn of the age, it seems to be a niche of a niche, like a
beachcomber who makes tourist memorabilia from driftwood, shells, and
frosted glass bits. :)

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 3:17 PM  wrote:

> Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS,
> 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but
> apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has
> stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to
> TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
>
> I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to
> bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only
> one who suffered such a fate. . .
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when
> > > I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting
> > > about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that
> > > a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the
> > > H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > >
> > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that
> > > is sad.
> > >
> > > TVB
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Framers  > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> >

Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[nuhDEEN]

 Michael, what are you using to publish your DITA content? What output is it 
missing?
Nadine
On Wednesday, October 13, 2021, 04:43:39 p.m. EDT, Norton, Michael 
 wrote:  
 
 Some of us have been using FrameMaker since it was owned by Frame. For many 
years, it seemed as if Adobe was trying to abandon FraneMaker. That has changed 
and it is still a good product. RoboHelp, however, is much more troublesome. I 
would not recommend it. It's buggy, and cumbersome. That said, the company I 
work for is moving into a DITA toolset that is even more buggy than RoboHelp 
and doesn't have nearly the publishing capabilities of FrameMaker. So, I am 
thankful that I can, for a little while longer, still work with one good tool.

And yeah, installation and licensing is a pain. I hesitate to get with Adobe 
Support for RoboHelp problems because a reinstall is often necessary and it's 
just a major pain. In contrast, I can't remember the last time I had to contact 
them with a FrameMaker problem. FrameMaker has that one characteristic that I 
really appreciate in a software tool - it works.


Principal Technical Documentation Specialist, Robotic Automation  |  
Pegasystems Inc.
Office: +1.678.527.5412  |  Email: 
michael.nor...@pega.com  |  
www.pega.com

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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

So, I just got pegged offlist by a shall remain anonymous list person who 
stated that it "couldn't really have been that bad." OK, longtime users should 
also remember this:

1.) When Adobe followed the Mayan/Aztec end of civilization timeline as we knew 
it and had FM10 just lost its little registration mind on the first day of the 
New Year. . . and no one and no one could open FM10. Do you also remember 
Adobe's much less than helpful first response to this crisis was to "force set 
your computer back to an earlier date and time?" Yea. . . really helpful. . . 
not.
2.) When upgrading from Acrobat Pro IX to X and after installing X, Adobe did 
not recognize the license number of the previously installed IX, and you had to 
go through the hell of getting a challenge code to install XI and sometimes, 
getting that magical code took up to an hour while you set on hold w/ Adobe?

And the beat goes on. . . 

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 2:18 PM
> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that started 
> with
> the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS, 2009 -
> remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but apparently
> that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has stayed just as
> horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to TCS as "Totally
> Cr*ppy Software.)
> 
> I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. . .
> that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to bare
> metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only one
> who suffered such a fate. . .
> 
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago
> > > when I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was
> > > lamenting about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was
> > > that a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When
> > > in the H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > >
> > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and
> > > that is sad.
> > >
> > > TVB
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Framers  > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us
> > > > Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > > Because every single solitary time that I

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that started 
with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS, 2009 - 
remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but apparently 
that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has stayed just as 
horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to TCS as "Totally 
Cr*ppy Software.)

I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. . . 
that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to bare 
metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only one who 
suffered such a fate. . . 

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Peter Gold
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> 
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> wrote:
> 
> > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when
> > I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting
> > about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that
> > a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the
> > H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> >
> > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that
> > is sad.
> >
> > TVB
> >
> >
> > Tammy Van Boening
> > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Framers  > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > 
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > >
> > >
> > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > >
> > > Alison
> > >
> > >
> > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > >
> > > Because every single solitary time that I have to
> > > uninstall/reinstall an
> > Adobe
> > > app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole
> > > Adobe
> > takes me
> > > down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to
> > > Adobe, I
> > lost
> > > a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff.
> > >
> > > I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to
> > > the
> > thread
> > > from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
> > > hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I
> > > LOVE
> > Adobe
> > > products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that
> > > Adobe apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on
> > > their stuff when it comes to this.
> > >
> > > Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe
> > > customer who is grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal
> > > w/ this cr*p
> > for
> > > much longer.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > www.spectrumwritingllc.com _
> > >
> > >
> > >
> <https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_c
> > > ampaign=sig-e
> > >
> mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link
> > > _campaign=s
> > > ig-email_content=emailclient> Scanned by McAfee
> > >
> <https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_c
> > > ampaign=sig-e
> > >
> mail_content=emailclient?utm_

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[nuhDEEN]

 You make a good point about attrition, Peter. I see very few job ads that 
require skills for authoring for in a print environment these days.
Nadine
On Wednesday, October 13, 2021, 03:21:50 p.m. EDT, Peter Gold 
 wrote:  
 
 In the old days, Adobe had beta-test (AKA pre-release) programs, for which
interested volunteers who represent a range of users from single-person
business to large enterprises with multiple seats, could apply. Is there a
FM beta-test program now? Is anyone on this list in the program? Of course
the idea was to subject the testers to all possible user-level torture
before the real users could stumble on bugs and other issues, and fix as
many problems as possible before general release. Customers would only have
sunshine, harmony, and uninterrupted workflows. I participated in FM,
Acrobat, and InDesign pre-release programs. Corporations change over
time, and so, too, their attitudes towards what comprises good
customer care.

InDesign's pre-release program is still active. Lots of test releases and
candidate releases are provided to testers until Quality Assurance
certifies the release.

I stopped using FM when my work didn't require it back around FM 7, and was
especially sad to find that Adobe abandoned Macintosh compatibility. I
upgraded a few times for nostalgia and personal writing, by using
Parallels. But, when my Windows version on Parallels no longer supported
newer FM versions, I froze my system, stuck in amber but still working. I
haven't had to endure the frustrating and productivity-sinking intricacies
of upgrade experiences like I've read about on this list.

IMO, the FM development team has the challenging and frustrating mission of
trying to keep an ancient technological design alive and reliable in
corporate environments. Just getting each new FM release to print "Hello,
World!" under each new Windows release on each new CPU architecture,
formatted for every new digital output format, is quite a miracle. However,
the effort and expense to maintain the FM might be better spent on
developing a completely new underlying software design that seems to work
the same from a user's point-of-view. You know, like nations of citizens
being able to commute daily in their all-electric cars, using the same
habits* they learned while driving petroleum-fueled autos. The investment
in a fundamentally re-engineered FM should pay off going forward, unless
investments in imagined AI succeed in being able to replace technical
publishing with autonomous-everything.

*Well, maybe self-driving vehicles might help reduce the consequence of
drivers impaired by ingested chemical substances and those generated
social-media overdoses.

My short answer for Stefan is "Because Adobe seems to have stopped paying
attention to FM users." I don't know if his question encompases users of
all Adobe software products, or just FM. The FM user community is probably
the oldest demographic. It's not about age, but years of use, and the kind
of use. Technical authors and publishers, thanks to FM, are content
creators, often also editors, subject matter experts, and document
manufacturers. This mixture of skill-sets doesn't exist to the same degree
among other Adobe creative software products. Users of filmmaking software
usually aren't also the writers of source material, or the adapters to
treatments, screenplays, scripts, or production-accounting software. Nor do
they write the documentation for the products used for these specialized
skill areas. So, if something that should be simple and trouble-free, like
installing an upgraded version of a professional software product that a
large enterprise customer's technical publishing depends upon, often turns
out to crash the customer's workflow, that's a good example of why
customers feel that way. Perhaps customers feel that the corporate view is
that this generation of user and product will retire soon?

Just my continually-deflating $0.02.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:06 PM A Craig  wrote:

>
> I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
>
> Alison
>
>
> From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users
> "feel" the way we do about Adobe
>
> Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an
> Adobe app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole
> Adobe
> takes me down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to
> Adobe, I lost a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to
> 'snuff.
>
> I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
> thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that
> Adobe
> hates their customers.

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Peter Gold]

Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM  wrote:

> I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when I
> was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting about
> all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that a
> gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the H*LL
> is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
>
> Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that is
> sad.
>
> TVB
>
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of A Craig
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> >
> > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > 
> > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users
> > "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an
> Adobe
> > app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole Adobe
> takes me
> > down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to Adobe, I
> lost
> > a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff.
> >
> > I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
> thread
> > from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
> > hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I LOVE
> Adobe
> > products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that Adobe
> > apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on their stuff
> > when it comes to this.
> >
> > Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe customer
> > who is grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal w/ this cr*p
> for
> > much longer.
> >
> >
> >
> > Tammy Van Boening
> > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > www.spectrumwritingllc.com _
> >
> >
> > <https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_c
> > ampaign=sig-e
> > mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link
> > _campaign=s
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> > ig-email_content=emailclient> and confirmed virus-free.
> > ___
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when I was 
still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting about all that 
Adobe could do so wrong when it came to installing/reinstalling/uninstalling 
and Dov's comment to me was that a gentleman at the sister conference had 
commented to Dov "When in the H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my 
systems!!!"

Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that is sad.

TVB


Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com



> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of A Craig
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> 
> Alison
> 
> 
> From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users
> "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an Adobe
> app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole Adobe takes me
> down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to Adobe, I lost
> a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff.
> 
> I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the thread
> from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
> hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I LOVE Adobe
> products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that Adobe
> apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on their stuff
> when it comes to this.
> 
> Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe customer
> who is grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal w/ this cr*p for
> much longer.
> 
> 
> 
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com _
> 
> 
> <https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_c
> ampaign=sig-e
> mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link
> _campaign=s
> ig-email_content=emailclient> Scanned by McAfee
> <https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_c
> ampaign=sig-e
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> _campaign=s
> ig-email_content=emailclient> and confirmed virus-free.
> ___
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at
> http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-
> archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
> ___
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at
> http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Peter Gold]

In the old days, Adobe had beta-test (AKA pre-release) programs, for which
interested volunteers who represent a range of users from single-person
business to large enterprises with multiple seats, could apply. Is there a
FM beta-test program now? Is anyone on this list in the program? Of course
the idea was to subject the testers to all possible user-level torture
before the real users could stumble on bugs and other issues, and fix as
many problems as possible before general release. Customers would only have
sunshine, harmony, and uninterrupted workflows. I participated in FM,
Acrobat, and InDesign pre-release programs. Corporations change over
time, and so, too, their attitudes towards what comprises good
customer care.

InDesign's pre-release program is still active. Lots of test releases and
candidate releases are provided to testers until Quality Assurance
certifies the release.

I stopped using FM when my work didn't require it back around FM 7, and was
especially sad to find that Adobe abandoned Macintosh compatibility. I
upgraded a few times for nostalgia and personal writing, by using
Parallels. But, when my Windows version on Parallels no longer supported
newer FM versions, I froze my system, stuck in amber but still working. I
haven't had to endure the frustrating and productivity-sinking intricacies
of upgrade experiences like I've read about on this list.

IMO, the FM development team has the challenging and frustrating mission of
trying to keep an ancient technological design alive and reliable in
corporate environments. Just getting each new FM release to print "Hello,
World!" under each new Windows release on each new CPU architecture,
formatted for every new digital output format, is quite a miracle. However,
the effort and expense to maintain the FM might be better spent on
developing a completely new underlying software design that seems to work
the same from a user's point-of-view. You know, like nations of citizens
being able to commute daily in their all-electric cars, using the same
habits* they learned while driving petroleum-fueled autos. The investment
in a fundamentally re-engineered FM should pay off going forward, unless
investments in imagined AI succeed in being able to replace technical
publishing with autonomous-everything.

*Well, maybe self-driving vehicles might help reduce the consequence of
drivers impaired by ingested chemical substances and those generated
social-media overdoses.

My short answer for Stefan is "Because Adobe seems to have stopped paying
attention to FM users." I don't know if his question encompases users of
all Adobe software products, or just FM. The FM user community is probably
the oldest demographic. It's not about age, but years of use, and the kind
of use. Technical authors and publishers, thanks to FM, are content
creators, often also editors, subject matter experts, and document
manufacturers. This mixture of skill-sets doesn't exist to the same degree
among other Adobe creative software products. Users of filmmaking software
usually aren't also the writers of source material, or the adapters to
treatments, screenplays, scripts, or production-accounting software. Nor do
they write the documentation for the products used for these specialized
skill areas. So, if something that should be simple and trouble-free, like
installing an upgraded version of a professional software product that a
large enterprise customer's technical publishing depends upon, often turns
out to crash the customer's workflow, that's a good example of why
customers feel that way. Perhaps customers feel that the corporate view is
that this generation of user and product will retire soon?

Just my continually-deflating $0.02.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:06 PM A Craig  wrote:

>
> I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
>
> Alison
>
>
> From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users
> "feel" the way we do about Adobe
>
> Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an
> Adobe app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole
> Adobe
> takes me down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to
> Adobe, I lost a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to
> 'snuff.
>
> I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
> thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that
> Adobe
> hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I LOVE
> Adobe products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that
> Adobe apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on their
> stuff
> when

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[A Craig]

I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired. 

Alison 


From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." 
 
Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26 
Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" 
the way we do about Adobe 

Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an 
Adobe app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole Adobe 
takes me down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to 
Adobe, I lost a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 
'snuff. 

I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the 
thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe 
hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I LOVE 
Adobe products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that 
Adobe apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on their stuff 
when it comes to this. 

Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe customer who 
is grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal w/ this cr*p for much 
longer. 



Tammy Van Boening 
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com 
www.spectrumwritingllc.com 
_ 


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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Robert Lauriston]

https://www.windowslatest.com/2021/08/28/microsofts-loophole-will-allow-windows-11-on-unsupported-hardware/

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 3:23 PM  wrote:
>
> ... MS put out 11 to appease its hardware partners and force the buying of
> more hardware for folks who want to upgrade. ...
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[tammyvb]

Oh Lin,

I wish that I could put the support folks at GoDaddy in front of you as well
. . . I just got done ripping them a new one myself, but there's power in
numbers!

And for those folks who are interested. . . there was an article in
yesterday's Wall Street Journal and it specifically addressed a review of
Windoze 11 . .  basically, the major conclusions were:

1.) MS put out 11 to appease its hardware partners and force the buying of
more hardware for folks who want to upgrade. Evidently, hardware took a
MAJOR hit for Windows 10 because everything that ran on 7 could for the most
part run w/out issues on 10, so why upgrade?
2.) and do NOT upgrade if at all possible - hang on as long as you can to
what you have as MS will support Win 10 through 2025!!!

If anyone wants to read the article, I can send a copy to you. I don't think
there's a way that I can post it to the list anywhere for everyone to read
at his/her own leisure, but correct me if I am wrong.

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Principal/Owner
Spectrum Writing, LLC
www.spectrumwritingllc.com
303-840-1755

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Lin Sims
> Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2021 12:45 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?
> 
> The OS keeps changing my default printer on me behind my back. I don't let
> Windows manage my printers. I even edited the registry to ensure this.
> 
> But every few days, the damn thing moves default from Adobe Printer to
> something else. No one can figure out why or how to make it stop, and if
the
> developers of this little piece of insanity were in front of me, I'd rip
'em a
> new one.
> 
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:37 PM A Craig  wrote:
> 
> >
> > We bought our new computers just before the Win 11 specs came out, and
> > despite being excellent computers, they don't have the required
> > built-in security "stuff" to qualify for Win 11. Maybe we'll see some
> > firmware updates to help us along. I'd even pay a small fee for that
> > (less than $50).
> >
> > And I agree that MS needs to stop telling me how I want to use my
> > computer, because most of the time they are wrong .
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > From: "Lin Sims" 
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." <
> > framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 5 October, 2021 11:25:39
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?
> >
> > Good thing, too. They've locked the taskbar to the bottom of the
> > screen with no option to move it, which makes me very annoyed as I
> > like it on the right. I have no plans to upgrade until they either put
> > it back or someone comes up with an app to reorganize the screen the way
> _I_ want it to be.
> >
> > I know my processor has TPM, but it's a slightly older Intel (i7
> > something or other). Right now Microspend is saying that you need at
> > least an i8, but I have hopes this just means they haven't tested it
> > on an i7 and that will still work. I only bought this machine 3 years
> > ago, and I plan for it to last me for at least another 3. More if I'm
> > lucky.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:16 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain
> > 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security".
> > Thus
> > > the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+
> > years).
> > >
> > > The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see
> > > _that_ steep to me. Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly
> > > 300 Windows systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new
> > > requirements _if_ we
> > chose
> > > to upgrade them to Windows 11.
> > >
> > > Even my older Mac (also running Parallels for Windows 10) from 2012
> > > will work - Parallels says that the TPM requirement will be met with
> > > a
> > virtual
> > > implementation, since the Mac does not provide access to the TPM -
> > > they have their own security chip.
> > >
> > > FWIW, Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, so no absolute
> > > "have to upgrade" the OS for a while.
> > >
> > > Z
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Framers  > aeris@lists.frameusers.com>
> > > On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 1:59 PM
> > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker softw

Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

I guess it does depend on the configuration then. We have not run the utility - 
just checked the specs of the systems we have.

These are Lenovo laptops,  i5 and i7 dual and quad-core, and all have the TPM 
chips, at least 8GB of ram (most are 16GB and some are 32GB), etc.

My primary system is now an older Mac (a 2012 fast i7 quad-core laptop with 
16GB) on which I run Windows 10 in Parallels (that is where I minimally use FM 
12 too), although I also have a Lenovo X1 Carbon that I am slowly migrating off 
of.

I have a recent 2020 Mac i9 laptop too, and that is very capable of running 
Windows 11 in Parallels! I may do that as a test first ... for the heck of it, 
although I don't need Windows on that system till I punt the 2012 Mac.

My desk is cluttered with three laptops at the moment ... eek.

Z

Robert Lauriston wrote:
My almost-five-year-old Dell Optiplex 7010 is per Microsoft's utility not 
compatible. Not that there's any reason for me to upgrade.

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:16 AM Syed Zaeem Hosain  wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security". Thus 
> the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+ years).
>
> The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_ 
> steep to me.  Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows 
> systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we chose to 
> upgrade them to Windows 11.
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[A Craig]

I've noticed that Windows updates are not consistently configured to keep your 
personal configuration choices. 

Instead, they often smash through and reset them to Windows defaults. 

It's beyond annoying (and a huge productivity loss), not to mention extremely 
lazy programming as far as I'm concerned. 


From: "Lin Sims"  
To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." 
 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October, 2021 11:44:43 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility? 

The OS keeps changing my default printer on me behind my back. I don't let 
Windows manage my printers. I even edited the registry to ensure this. 

But every few days, the damn thing moves default from Adobe Printer to 
something else. No one can figure out why or how to make it stop, and if 
the developers of this little piece of insanity were in front of me, I'd 
rip 'em a new one. 

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:37 PM A Craig  wrote: 

> 
> We bought our new computers just before the Win 11 specs came out, and 
> despite being excellent computers, they don't have the required built-in 
> security "stuff" to qualify for Win 11. Maybe we'll see some firmware 
> updates to help us along. I'd even pay a small fee for that (less than 
> $50). 
> 
> And I agree that MS needs to stop telling me how I want to use my 
> computer, because most of the time they are wrong . 
> 
> Alison 
> 
> 
> From: "Lin Sims"  
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." < 
> framers@lists.frameusers.com> 
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 October, 2021 11:25:39 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility? 
> 
> Good thing, too. They've locked the taskbar to the bottom of the screen 
> with no option to move it, which makes me very annoyed as I like it on the 
> right. I have no plans to upgrade until they either put it back or someone 
> comes up with an app to reorganize the screen the way _I_ want it to be. 
> 
> I know my processor has TPM, but it's a slightly older Intel (i7 something 
> or other). Right now Microspend is saying that you need at least an i8, 
> but 
> I have hopes this just means they haven't tested it on an i7 and that will 
> still work. I only bought this machine 3 years ago, and I plan for it to 
> last me for at least another 3. More if I'm lucky. 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:16 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain  
> wrote: 
> 
> > Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security". 
> Thus 
> > the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+ 
> years). 
> > 
> > The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_ 
> > steep to me. Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows 
> > systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we 
> chose 
> > to upgrade them to Windows 11. 
> > 
> > Even my older Mac (also running Parallels for Windows 10) from 2012 will 
> > work - Parallels says that the TPM requirement will be met with a 
> virtual 
> > implementation, since the Mac does not provide access to the TPM - they 
> > have their own security chip. 
> > 
> > FWIW, Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, so no absolute "have to 
> > upgrade" the OS for a while. 
> > 
> > Z 
> > 
> > -Original Message- 
> > From: Framers  aeris@lists.frameusers.com> 
> > On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 1:59 PM 
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. < 
> > framers@lists.frameusers.com> 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility? 
> > 
> > Interesting that Windows 11 has such steep CPU requirements. That's not 
> > something I look for in an operating system. 
> > ___ 
> > 
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list 
> > 
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage 
> > at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ 
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com 
> > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com 
> > ___ 
> > 
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list 
> > 
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com 
> > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com 
> > Archives located at 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ 
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> > http://

Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Lin Sims]

The OS keeps changing my default printer on me behind my back. I don't let
Windows manage my printers. I even edited the registry to ensure this.

But every few days, the damn thing moves default from Adobe Printer to
something else. No one can figure out why or how to make it stop, and if
the developers of this little piece of insanity were in front of me, I'd
rip 'em a new one.

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:37 PM A Craig  wrote:

>
> We bought our new computers just before the Win 11 specs came out, and
> despite being excellent computers, they don't have the required built-in
> security "stuff" to qualify for Win 11. Maybe we'll see some firmware
> updates to help us along. I'd even pay a small fee for that (less than
> $50).
>
> And I agree that MS needs to stop telling me how I want to use my
> computer, because most of the time they are wrong .
>
> Alison
>
>
> From: "Lin Sims" 
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 October, 2021 11:25:39
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?
>
> Good thing, too. They've locked the taskbar to the bottom of the screen
> with no option to move it, which makes me very annoyed as I like it on the
> right. I have no plans to upgrade until they either put it back or someone
> comes up with an app to reorganize the screen the way _I_ want it to be.
>
> I know my processor has TPM, but it's a slightly older Intel (i7 something
> or other). Right now Microspend is saying that you need at least an i8,
> but
> I have hopes this just means they haven't tested it on an i7 and that will
> still work. I only bought this machine 3 years ago, and I plan for it to
> last me for at least another 3. More if I'm lucky.
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:16 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain 
> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security".
> Thus
> > the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+
> years).
> >
> > The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_
> > steep to me. Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows
> > systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we
> chose
> > to upgrade them to Windows 11.
> >
> > Even my older Mac (also running Parallels for Windows 10) from 2012 will
> > work - Parallels says that the TPM requirement will be met with a
> virtual
> > implementation, since the Mac does not provide access to the TPM - they
> > have their own security chip.
> >
> > FWIW, Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, so no absolute "have to
> > upgrade" the OS for a while.
> >
> > Z
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  aeris@lists.frameusers.com>
> > On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 1:59 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> > framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?
> >
> > Interesting that Windows 11 has such steep CPU requirements. That's not
> > something I look for in an operating system.
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage
> > at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
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> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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> > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Lin Sims
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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>

Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[A Craig]

We bought our new computers just before the Win 11 specs came out, and despite 
being excellent computers, they don't have the required built-in security 
"stuff" to qualify for Win 11. Maybe we'll see some firmware updates to help us 
along. I'd even pay a small fee for that (less than $50). 

And I agree that MS needs to stop telling me how I want to use my computer, 
because most of the time they are wrong . 

Alison 


From: "Lin Sims"  
To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." 
 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October, 2021 11:25:39 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility? 

Good thing, too. They've locked the taskbar to the bottom of the screen 
with no option to move it, which makes me very annoyed as I like it on the 
right. I have no plans to upgrade until they either put it back or someone 
comes up with an app to reorganize the screen the way _I_ want it to be. 

I know my processor has TPM, but it's a slightly older Intel (i7 something 
or other). Right now Microspend is saying that you need at least an i8, but 
I have hopes this just means they haven't tested it on an i7 and that will 
still work. I only bought this machine 3 years ago, and I plan for it to 
last me for at least another 3. More if I'm lucky. 

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:16 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain  
wrote: 

> Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security". Thus 
> the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+ years). 
> 
> The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_ 
> steep to me. Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows 
> systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we chose 
> to upgrade them to Windows 11. 
> 
> Even my older Mac (also running Parallels for Windows 10) from 2012 will 
> work - Parallels says that the TPM requirement will be met with a virtual 
> implementation, since the Mac does not provide access to the TPM - they 
> have their own security chip. 
> 
> FWIW, Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, so no absolute "have to 
> upgrade" the OS for a while. 
> 
> Z 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Framers  
> On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 1:59 PM 
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. < 
> framers@lists.frameusers.com> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility? 
> 
> Interesting that Windows 11 has such steep CPU requirements. That's not 
> something I look for in an operating system. 
> ___ 
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list 
> 
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage 
> at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ 
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
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> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com 
> ___ 
> 
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> 
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com 
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> 


-- 
Lin Sims 
___ 

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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Lin Sims]

Good thing, too. They've locked the taskbar to the bottom of the screen
with no option to move it, which makes me very annoyed as I like it on the
right. I have no plans to upgrade until they either put it back or someone
comes up with an app to reorganize the screen the way _I_ want it to be.

I know my processor has TPM, but it's a slightly older Intel (i7 something
or other). Right now Microspend is saying that you need at least an i8, but
I have hopes this just means they haven't tested it on an i7 and that will
still work. I only bought this machine 3 years ago, and I plan for it to
last me for at least another 3. More if I'm lucky.

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:16 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain 
wrote:

> Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security". Thus
> the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+ years).
>
> The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_
> steep to me.  Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows
> systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we chose
> to upgrade them to Windows 11.
>
> Even my older Mac (also running Parallels for Windows 10) from 2012 will
> work - Parallels says that the TPM requirement will be met with a virtual
> implementation, since the Mac does not provide access to the TPM - they
> have their own security chip.
>
> FWIW, Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, so no absolute "have to
> upgrade" the OS for a while.
>
> Z
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 1:59 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?
>
> Interesting that Windows 11 has such steep CPU requirements. That's not
> something I look for in an operating system.
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage
> at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Robert Lauriston]

My almost-five-year-old Dell Optiplex 7010 is per Microsoft's utility
not compatible. Not that there's any reason for me to upgrade.

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:16 AM Syed Zaeem Hosain  wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security". Thus 
> the need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+ years).
>
> The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_ 
> steep to me.  Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows 
> systems - some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we chose to 
> upgrade them to Windows 11.
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Hmmm ... apparently because Microsoft wants to "add better security". Thus the 
need for the TPM (available in Intel cpu's from the past ten+ years).

The other requirements of speed, ram, disk space, etc., don't see _that_ steep 
to me.  Our IT guy says that everything we have (nearly 300 Windows systems - 
some are 8+ years old) meets the new requirements _if_ we chose to upgrade them 
to Windows 11.

Even my older Mac (also running Parallels for Windows 10) from 2012 will work - 
Parallels says that the TPM requirement will be met with a virtual 
implementation, since the Mac does not provide access to the TPM - they have 
their own security chip.

FWIW, Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, so no absolute "have to 
upgrade" the OS for a while. 

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 1:59 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

Interesting that Windows 11 has such steep CPU requirements. That's not 
something I look for in an operating system.
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Peter Gold]

Is it possible that this is the result of either an honest typesetting or
composing error, or an intentional strategy to avoid breaking footnote
matter across pages? Does the client have a preference?

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM  wrote:
OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working
on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
reference such as:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
the new reference was all that was cited, for example:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and
they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)



I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Robert Lauriston]

Interesting that Windows 11 has such steep CPU requirements. That's
not something I look for in an operating system.
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

Jeff and Dan,

 

I totally agree w/ both of you. The closest that I have ever seen to this is
a citation w/in a citation such as: 

 

In-text reference: 

 

(Original author last name, Year of original work, as cited in Author last
name of work where quote found, Year)

Miller (1953, as cited in Agrios, 2005) found .

. as was found (Miller, 1953, as cited in Agrios, 2005).

 

Reference list (only the citing article defined):

 

Agrios, G.N. (2005). Plant pathology (5th ed.). Elsevier Academic Press.

 

I just have to tread carefully on this about which battles to pick . . .
trying to get standardization on variables alone has been tricky such as
only a little f or a big F for fraction . . . and if I rip out the embedded
reference and reference only the citing article, (just as you indicated
Jeff, and that is exactly what I am doing now), I just wanted some type of
back up. My SMEs are very territorial about the their content in this, and
as much as I want to make this guide correct in every way (technically
accurate, grammar, syntax, etc.) I have to work hard to avoid "but we've
always done it this way, so leave it alone" push back. Sigh. . . .

 

Tammy Van Boening

Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com

www.spectrumwritingllc.com

 

> -Original Message-

> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On

> Behalf Of Harding, Dan

> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 7:07 AM

> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

> 

> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

> 

> But why even reference the original article? Doesn't the
revised/republished

> article supplant the former entirely, so just cite it? I've not seen this
type of

> recursive citing before. Seems extraneous to me.

> 

> -Dan

> 

> 

> 

> -Original Message-

> From: Framers <
<mailto:framers-bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> framers-

 <mailto:framers-bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> >
bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Jeff

> Coatsworth

> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 6:42 AM

> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

> < <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> framers@lists.frameusers.com>

> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

> 

> I've never seen an embedded reference in all my years in university. I
would

> have thought that the second one would have just quoted the title of the

> first one - e.g.

> 

> 

> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M.
2005.

> Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue

> distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.

> 

> 

> and ditched the first location - IMHO, that's not part of the title of the
second

> article.

> 

> 

> 

> From: Framers <
<mailto:framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com>
framers-

 <mailto:framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com>
> bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com> on behalf

> of  <mailto:tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com> tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
< <mailto:tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com> tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com>

> Sent: September 28, 2021 5:16 PM

> To:  <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> framers@lists.frameusers.com

> Subject: [Framers] OT: Reference question

> 

> OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned

> veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am
working

> on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the

> existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate,
current,

> etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a

> reference such as:

> 

> 

> 

> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic

> modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong
bases." J

> Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.

> 

> 

> 

> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M.
2005.

> Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue

> distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J
Pharm

> Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.

> 

> 

> 

> You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second

> reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite

> an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded

> reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of t

Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

I have my message format set to HTML and I have the option of append each
line in the original message with a carrot (>) and I see that works for
other folks' messages. . . not sure what else I could different besides just
remove the original message. . . but then I have had folks complain that
they lose track of the message thread that way. I am open to any thoughts.
Using Outlook 2016. Tammy Van Boening Principal/Owner Spectrum Writing, LLC
www.spectrumwritingllc.com 303-840-1755 > Scanned by McAfee and confirmed
virus-free. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/2zCJMrO


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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

Better? Tammy Van Boening Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com > -Original Message- > From: Framers
bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On > Behalf Of
Craig Ede > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 9:14 AM > To: An email list
for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. > > Subject: Re: [Framers] OT:
Reference question > > Tammy, > > Is there some way you can turn off the
appending the earlier messages > when you reply. I expect you are probably
replying from a phone and it just > produces a long string where everything
is mashed up together making it > difficult to read your brief responses. >
> Thanks > > Craig > >  > Scanned by McAfee
and confirmed virus-free. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/2zCJMrO


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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Craig Ede]

Tammy,

Is there some way you can turn off the appending the earlier messages when you 
reply. I expect you are probably replying from a phone and it just produces a 
long string where everything is mashed up together making it difficult to read 
your brief responses.

Thanks

Craig


From: Framers  on 
behalf of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 4:29 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

LOL! How I wish. Tammy Van Boening Tammy dot vanboening at
spectrumwritingllc dot com 
www.spectrumwritingllc.com<http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com> -Original
Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, September
28, 2021 3:23 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
software. Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question Just cite the
"Friends" episode and provide a link to it? :) On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM
wrote: > OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with >
seasoned veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer > here. I
am working on the references for a client document, and have > to sort
through the existing references that I was given and make sure > it is
accurate, current, etc., and I came across a couple of instances > of a
reference within a reference such as: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al.
(2005). "Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the
tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6):
1259-76. > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D,
Rowland M. > 2005. > Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the > tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm
Sci > 94:1259-1276." J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > You can see that
the first reference is embedded/cited in the second > reference. This was
not the way that I was taught a gazillion years > ago to cite an embedded
reference. Basically, if the content of the > embedded reference was
standalone in a new reference, regardless of > the source, then the new
reference was all that was cited, for example: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy,
D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases. > J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > I looked at these papers and the content was
standalone in the second > reference and it cited the first reference for
the content, but > because the content was standalone in the second
reference, I should > cite only the second reference where appropriate.
(God, does that even > make sense. . . I am thinking of the Friends episode,
"The One Where Everybody Finds Out," > and > they don't know that we know
that they know and Joey loses his mind.) > > > > I just need some advice
from some seasoned writers about how to handle > this. > > > > Thanks! > > >
> TVB > > > > > > > > > _ > > > < >
https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign= >
sig-e > >
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aign=s > ig-email_content=emailclient >
=sig-email_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link >
m_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>> > and confirmed virus-free. >
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Harding, Dan]

But why even reference the original article? Doesn't the revised/republished 
article supplant the former entirely, so just cite it? I've not seen this type 
of recursive citing before. Seems extraneous to me.

-Dan



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Jeff Coatsworth
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 6:42 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

I've never seen an embedded reference in all my years in university. I would 
have thought that the second one would have just quoted the title of the first 
one - e.g.


Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue 
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.


and ditched the first location - IMHO, that's not part of the title of the 
second article.



From: Framers 
 on behalf 
of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
Sent: September 28, 2021 5:16 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] OT: Reference question

OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned 
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working on 
the references for a client document, and have to sort through the existing 
references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current, etc., and I 
came across a couple of instances of a reference within a reference such as:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based pharmacokinetic 
modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J 
Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue 
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm 
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second reference. 
This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to cite an 
embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded reference was 
standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then the new reference 
was all that was cited, for example:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic 
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second reference 
and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the content was 
standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the second reference 
where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I am thinking of the 
Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and they don't know that 
we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)



I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this.



Thanks!



TVB








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Subscribe 

Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Jeff Coatsworth]

I've never seen an embedded reference in all my years in university. I would 
have thought that the second one would have just quoted the title of the first 
one - e.g.


Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.


and ditched the first location - IMHO, that's not part of the title of the 
second article.



From: Framers 
 on behalf 
of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com 
Sent: September 28, 2021 5:16 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] OT: Reference question

OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am working
on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
reference such as:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M. 2005.
Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
the new reference was all that was cited, for example:



Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based pharmacokinetic
modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.



I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out," and
they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)



I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle this.



Thanks!



TVB








  _


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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[tammyvb]

LOL! How I wish. Tammy Van Boening Tammy dot vanboening at
spectrumwritingllc dot com www.spectrumwritingllc.com -Original
Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, September
28, 2021 3:23 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
software. Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question Just cite the
"Friends" episode and provide a link to it? :) On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM
wrote: > OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with >
seasoned veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer > here. I
am working on the references for a client document, and have > to sort
through the existing references that I was given and make sure > it is
accurate, current, etc., and I came across a couple of instances > of a
reference within a reference such as: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al.
(2005). "Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the
tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6):
1259-76. > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D,
Rowland M. > 2005. > Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the > tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm
Sci > 94:1259-1276." J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > You can see that
the first reference is embedded/cited in the second > reference. This was
not the way that I was taught a gazillion years > ago to cite an embedded
reference. Basically, if the content of the > embedded reference was
standalone in a new reference, regardless of > the source, then the new
reference was all that was cited, for example: > > > > Rodgers, T., Leahy,
D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based > pharmacokinetic modeling 1:
Predicting the tissue distribution of > moderate-to-strong bases. > J Pharm
Sci 96(11): 3151-3152. > > > > I looked at these papers and the content was
standalone in the second > reference and it cited the first reference for
the content, but > because the content was standalone in the second
reference, I should > cite only the second reference where appropriate.
(God, does that even > make sense. . . I am thinking of the Friends episode,
"The One Where Everybody Finds Out," > and > they don't know that we know
that they know and Joey loses his mind.) > > > > I just need some advice
from some seasoned writers about how to handle > this. > > > > Thanks! > > >
> TVB > > > > > > > > > _ > > > < >
https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign= >
sig-e > >
mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link_camp >
aign=s > ig-email_content=emailclient > > > Scanned by McAfee > < >
https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign= >
sig-e > >
mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link_camp >
aign=s > ig-email_content=emailclient >
=sig-email_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link >
m_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>> > and confirmed virus-free. >
___ > > This message is from the
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the list's > homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at >
http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ > Subscribe and
unsubscribe at >
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com > Send
administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com >
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Re: [Framers] OT: Reference question

[Peter Gold]

Just cite the "Friends" episode and provide a link to it? :)


On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 4:16 PM  wrote:

> OK, I know this is off-topic but because this list is filled with seasoned
> veterans of technical writing, I know I can get my answer here. I am
> working
> on the references for a client document, and have to sort through the
> existing references that I was given and make sure it is accurate, current,
> etc., and I came across a couple of instances of a reference within a
> reference such as:
>
>
>
> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2005). "Physiologically based
> pharmacokinetic modeling 1: predicting the tissue distribution of
> moderate-to-strong bases." J Pharm Sci 94(6): 1259-76.
>
>
>
> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). "Rodgers T, Leahy D, Rowland M.
> 2005.
> Physiologically based pharmacokinetic modeling 1: Predicting the tissue
> distribution of moderate-to-strong bases. J Pharm Sci 94:1259-1276." J
> Pharm
> Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.
>
>
>
> You can see that the first reference is embedded/cited in the second
> reference. This was not the way that I was taught a gazillion years ago to
> cite an embedded reference. Basically, if the content of the embedded
> reference was standalone in a new reference, regardless of the source, then
> the new reference was all that was cited, for example:
>
>
>
> Rodgers, T., Leahy, D., et al. (2007). Physiologically based
> pharmacokinetic
> modeling 1: Predicting the tissue distribution of moderate-to-strong bases.
> J Pharm Sci 96(11): 3151-3152.
>
>
>
> I looked at these papers and the content was standalone in the second
> reference and it cited the first reference for the content, but because the
> content was standalone in the second reference, I should cite only the
> second reference where appropriate. (God, does that even make sense. . . I
> am thinking of the Friends episode, "The One Where Everybody Finds Out,"
> and
> they don't know that we know that they know and Joey loses his mind.)
>
>
>
> I just need some advice from some seasoned writers about how to handle
> this.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> TVB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _
>
>
> <
> https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-e
>
> mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=s
> ig-email_content=emailclient
> >
>  Scanned by McAfee
> <
> https://home.mcafee.com/utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-e
>
> mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=s
> ig-email_content=emailclient
> >
> and confirmed virus-free.
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>
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Re: [Framers] New Adobe Profiles - Business, Personal

[Lin Sims]

Remember, my upgrade was for subscriptions managed through Teams. This
might have made a difference, since Teams is automatically a Business
subscription no matter how you slice it.

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 3:41 AM Sue Thomson  wrote:

> Thank you @Jeff Coates. Stefan Gentz and a member of the TCS support team
> have been in touch. We are trying to set up a meeting between Adobe support
> and our internal IT support.
>
> @Lin Sims, It's good to know that it is possible for this to work. Maybe
> there is light at the end of the tunnel.
>
> @TammyVB, Maybe it's worth checking with Adobe to see how to avoid getting
> into this situation. If @Lin Sims' upgrade worked without problems, perhaps
> you can still recommend the FrameMaker route to your client.
>
>
> Sue T
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Coatsworth 
> Sent: 24 September 2021 15:07
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] New Adobe Profiles - Business, Personal
>
> I've reached out to Stefan Gentz & he's forwarded Sue's info to the TCS
> team, but because it's a world-wide Adobe day off, we shouldn't expect an
> response from them until at least Monday.
>
>
> 
> From: Framers  jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com> on behalf of Lin Sims <
> ljsims...@gmail.com>
> Sent: September 24, 2021 8:23 AM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> Subject: Re: [Framers] New Adobe Profiles - Business, Personal
>
> That is weird. I updated to FM16.03 when it came out, and I don't recall
> being asked if it was a business or personal profile or any kind of profile
> at all. I also have the full CC installed and have had no issues switching
> back and forth.
>
> On the other hand, both subscriptions are Teams, so maybe the people your
> IT team talked to don't know what they're talking about. Did you contact
> tcs...@adobe.com?
>
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 11:13 AM Sue Thomson 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks
> >
> > I use FrameMaker (as part of Technical Communication Suite), and a
> > number of Creative Cloud apps (mainly Illustrator but I also use
> > others
> > occasionally) all day. I usually run FrameMaker and Illustrator at the
> > same time, switching between them tens of times during the day.
> >
> > I recently updated FrameMaker from v16.0.2 to 16.0.3. When I restarted
> > FrameMaker I was prompted to choose an Adobe Profile. The choice was
> > Business or Personal. There was no way (that I could see) to progress
> > without making a choice.
> >
> > I had not heard of these profiles before so I looked at the guidance
> > on the page and chose Business.
> >
> > Oh, boy! How I wish I had not updated FrameMaker. These profiles are
> > causing me no end of trouble.
> >
> > Our IT department has been talking to Adobe, and IT tells me that
> > Adobe says… TCS and FM are only available under Personal profile,
> > Creative Cloud apps are only available under Business profile.
> >
> > This means that now, every time I want to switch between two
> > applications (which have been running perfectly happily, side-by-side,
> > for years), I have to sign out of one profile and sign back in under the
> other profile.
> > The applications, of course, close each time I sign out. If I don’t
> > change profiles, then either FrameMaker or Illustrator (depending upon
> > how I am signed in) claims to be a trial version, with a countdown.
> >
> > Oddly, if I right-click on an image in FrameMaker I still get the same
> > old choices to edit the image – i.e. Illustrator and Photoshop are
> > still on the list of options.
> >
> > Has anyone else come across issues with these new profiles? Am I
> > missing a trick somewhere?
> >
> > I’ve been using FrameMaker, on-and-off, since v7.2 but this change is
> > making me re-evaluate my tools. I’m seriously wondering if it is time
> > to give up on Adobe and switch to something more useable.
> >
> > Sue Thomson MISTC
> > Senior Technical Author
> > Specialist Radio Frequency
> >
> >
> > [Description: cid:image001.jpg@01D5D132.0EDB9820]
> >
> > Ultra Intelligence and Communications
> > A8, Cody Technology Park, Ively Road,
> > Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 0LX, United Kingdom
> > T: +44 (0) 1252 512 951 x 5644
> >
> > www.ultra.group/ultra-ewst<http://www.ultra.group/ultra-ewst<http://ww
> > w.ultra.group/ultra-ewst<http://www.ultra.group/ultra-ewst>>
> >
> > 
> 

Re: [Framers] New Adobe Profiles - Business, Personal

[Craig Ede]

If you had to only piss off one of the groups, you'd likely pick the one that 
is smaller. But pissing off nobody would be better.

C Ede


snip...
Adobe treats its Creative Cloud customers (InDesign / Photoshop /
Illustrator / Type / etc.) much better than its TCS (FrameMaker /
RoboHelp) / Captivate) customers.

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 7:19 AM Steve Rickaby  wrote:

> ... Sometimes I think Adobe hates its customers ...
unsnip
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[Thomas Bain]

I've been using Windows 11 since July and have seen no problems with Frame
versions 16.0.2 and 16.0.3.

Tom Bain
b...@acm.org

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of Harding, Dan
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 6:34
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

Given that PCs will start shipping with Windows 11 next month, I'm curious
as to whether any compatibility/performance issues have been discovered with
Frame, and if so, which versions.

Thanks,

-Dan
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Re: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility?

[A Craig]

Given the huge compatibility problems with Win 11 and existing computers, 
running Frame on a Win 11 computer it won't be an issue for most of us until we 
buy/upgrade our current systems. 

We just bought our second, high end (though not bleeding edge) computer in May 
and neither of them will run Win 11 (Win 11 hadn't even been announced and the 
specs were not available when we chose the parts that went into the 
custom-built machines). 

[ 
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3631575/how-to-check-if-your-pc-can-run-windows-11.html
 | 
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3631575/how-to-check-if-your-pc-can-run-windows-11.html
 ] 

Alison 


From: "Harding, Dan"  
To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software." 
 
Sent: Monday, 27 September, 2021 03:34:23 
Subject: [Framers] Windows 11 compatibility? 

Given that PCs will start shipping with Windows 11 next month, I'm curious as 
to whether any compatibility/performance issues have been discovered with 
Frame, and if so, which versions. 

Thanks, 

-Dan 
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