Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
On Thursday 06 November 2008, Jerry McAllister wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 12:10:41AM +0800, Foo JH wrote: Hi there, Earlier I was asking for some help getting XSP/ mod_mono on FreeBSD. I may be asking in the wrong mailing list, but my impression is that mono on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. To pose my questions to the developers in the FreeBSD community: 1. What programming language(s) do you deploy on FreeBSD? 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? 3. Is FreeBSD even a popular choice as a development platform, or is it better suited as a special-purpose OS (eg. mail server, DNS server)? FreeBSD suppports just about any programming language that has been created. If you go to /usr/ports/lang/ you will see a large list of them that you can install. As for the most common, well, C and C++, Shells such as SH, CSH/TCSH and Perl are very common, plus in conjunction with web servers such as Apache, PHP, Python, Ruby and a number of others are common. If you are doing number crunching, you can use FORTRAN and if you are in to historical business environments, there is even Cobol. As for being optimized for a language, it is more likely the other way around. Are there any languages that have good optimization for running on FreeBSD. Maybe. Someone else may know more about that, than I do. jerry And don't forget Java. Eclipse-devel + jdk16 make an excellent development environment on FreeBSD. -- Pieter de Goeje ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
Wojciech Puchar skrev: may be asking in the wrong mailing list, but my impression is that mono on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. To pose my questions to the developers in the FreeBSD community: 1. What programming language(s) do you deploy on FreeBSD? whatever i need. i personally use mostly C. 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? i don't think so. 3. Is FreeBSD even a popular choice as a development platform, or is it better suited as a special-purpose OS (eg. mail server, DNS server)? i don't know how popular it is for what tasks. but it works excellent for all you specified. it's unix anyway. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 2008-11-06 07:58 IMHO there are only three alternatives left these days when creativity seems to be fading C - the prince among languages and Eclipse + Java - the future already today. And - For learning purposes - the highly underrated Pascal by Niklaus Wirth. In my mind C was created as a tool needed to create UNIXWhere did creativity like this vanish? (does anyone still use the word homepage?) (cm.bell-labs.com/~dmr) /Roger ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
IMHO there are only three alternatives left these days when creativity seems to be fading C - the prince among languages and Eclipse + Java - the future already today. it's very sad that such crap like java have to be the future. unfortunately already it's popular. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 12:10:41AM +0800, Foo JH wrote: Hi there, Earlier I was asking for some help getting XSP/ mod_mono on FreeBSD. I may be asking in the wrong mailing list, but my impression is that mono on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. To pose my questions to the developers in the FreeBSD community: 1. What programming language(s) do you deploy on FreeBSD? 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? 3. Is FreeBSD even a popular choice as a development platform, or is it better suited as a special-purpose OS (eg. mail server, DNS server)? FreeBSD suppports just about any programming language that has been created. If you go to /usr/ports/lang/ you will see a large list of them that you can install. As for the most common, well, C and C++, Shells such as SH, CSH/TCSH and Perl are very common, plus in conjunction with web servers such as Apache, PHP, Python, Ruby and a number of others are common. If you are doing number crunching, you can use FORTRAN and if you are in to historical business environments, there is even Cobol. As for being optimized for a language, it is more likely the other way around. Are there any languages that have good optimization for running on FreeBSD. Maybe. Someone else may know more about that, than I do. jerry Thanks. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 12:10:41AM +0800, Foo JH wrote: Hi there, Earlier I was asking for some help getting XSP/ mod_mono on FreeBSD. I may be asking in the wrong mailing list, but my impression is that mono on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. As a re-implementation of microsofts .NET, I personally wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Although some parts are an ECMA standard, as a developer you can never be sure that microsoft won't hit you with a patent lawsuit if they perceive you as treading on their turf. Experience has taught the microsoft cannot be trusted. To pose my questions to the developers in the FreeBSD community: 1. What programming language(s) do you deploy on FreeBSD? See all the ports in /usr/ports/lang. For systems programming or if speed is of the essence, I use C. For scripting the standard Bourne Shell (sh) is still OK. For massaging large quantities of text, Perl still works very well, and there is a huge number of modules (libraries) available. Lua is becoming a new personal favorite of mine for scripts. It is fast, small and easy. 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? No. Performance of scripting languages is usually not a big problem anymore because of the increased speed of new computers. And it depends more on the interpreter of the language in question than on the host OS. Of course compiled languages can run faster than interpreted ones. 3. Is FreeBSD even a popular choice as a development platform, or is it better suited as a special-purpose OS (eg. mail server, DNS server)? There is no big difference between FreeBSD and Linux here. Pretty much everything that runs on Linux runs on FreeBSD as well. Both are a pretty popular development platforms, e.g. for web apps. Think PHP, Ruby on Rails etc. Roland -- R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) pgprbAQt8RSg9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Foo JH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Foo JH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: what is your programming language on freebsd? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:10 AM Hi there, Earlier I was asking for some help getting XSP/ mod_mono on FreeBSD. I may be asking in the wrong mailing list, but my impression is that mono on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. I am not sure what leads you to believe that. Mono in general isn't as popular as, say, GNU's compiler collection. That said, it runs just fine on FreeBSD. There are motivated folks working to get more ports added, such as for monodevelop. There's a google group for this, though, it's called bsd-sharp. You may want to try there if you have problems related to Mono on FreeBSD and there aren't any helpful answers forthcoming on the seemingly-appropriate freebsd.org list. To pose my questions to the developers in the FreeBSD community: 1. What programming language(s) do you deploy on FreeBSD? I've worked with C, Perl, C# (mono), and Ruby. There are very few programming languages that you can't use to write code that is intended to run on FreeBSD. Most of these are anachronistic languages that no longer serve a useful purpose on any reasonably modern system, having been defunct for 20 or more years. 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? No more than any other OS. Some languages may be better optimized than others, but you can't really optimize an OS to a language. 3. Is FreeBSD even a popular choice as a development platform, or is it better suited as a special-purpose OS (eg. mail server, DNS server)? FreeBSD is a fine development platform. In fact, it offers some things that developers like that other systems don't have. kqueue is very nice, and there are also little things such as the reallocf() function that are helpful as well. - mdh ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
may be asking in the wrong mailing list, but my impression is that mono on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. To pose my questions to the developers in the FreeBSD community: 1. What programming language(s) do you deploy on FreeBSD? whatever i need. i personally use mostly C. 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? i don't think so. 3. Is FreeBSD even a popular choice as a development platform, or is it better suited as a special-purpose OS (eg. mail server, DNS server)? i don't know how popular it is for what tasks. but it works excellent for all you specified. it's unix anyway. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
on FreeBSD is generally not a popular idea. As a re-implementation of microsofts .NET, I personally wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Although some parts are an ECMA standard, as a developer you can never be sure that microsoft won't hit you with a patent lawsuit if they perceive you as treading on their turf. Experience has taught the microsoft cannot be trusted. as all portable things microsoft created will actually work completely only in windows. anyway - i don't see any sense in using it if you are not forced to use windows. if you are - it would be better to use windows for that. 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? No. Performance of scripting languages is usually not a big problem anymore because of the increased speed of new computers. And it depends scripting language are not made to be fast running, but to mix many other programs to get result fast and easy. more on the interpreter of the language in question than on the host OS. Of course compiled languages can run faster than interpreted ones. as on every OS. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is your programming language on freebsd?
On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 10:06:15PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: 2. Is FreeBSD more optimised in performance for any particular language? No. Performance of scripting languages is usually not a big problem anymore because of the increased speed of new computers. And it depends scripting language are not made to be fast running, but to mix many other programs to get result fast and easy. Most scripting languages can be used in hybrid environments, and will be pretty fast if they call compiled functions for CPU-intensive tasks. As an example: in Python, you can call compiled functions in dynamic libraries directly with the ctypes module; no need to recompile anything directly. Alternatively or in addition to this, just write your own extension module in C/Python either manually, or with code generators like SWIG to optimize CPU bottlenecks or call into / link against other compiled code. Hybrid systems are usually very fast to set up, yet don't significantly sacrifice speed. Ever used numpy, scipy etc. with optimized C and FORTRAN libraries (ATLAS, FFTW3 etc.) in Python for big numeric computations? Works like a charm and is pretty fast too. -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what else is needed to make ftp passive work
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 01:58:31PM -0500, Len Conrad wrote: two machines on the same private network. ftp 10.0.0.24 Connected to 10.0.0.24. 220 mx1.fairhope.net FTP server (Version 6.00LS) ready. Name (10.0.0.24:username): 331 Password required for username. Password: 230 User username logged in. Remote system type is UNIX. Using binary mode to transfer files. ftp ls 229 Entering Extended Passive Mode (|||64341|) at this point, there is a long delay, that eventually completes: 200 EPRT command successful. 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for '/bin/ls' ... and the rest of the ftp session runs fast. on the ftp server, if we ipfw disable firewall, the ftp session runs without delay. in hosts file, both machines have both of their records, so we don't think the delay is query for PTR of either IP. our ipfw.rules: # stateful $IPF 50 check-state $IPF 60 allow tcp from any to any established $IPF 70 allow all from any to any out keep-state $IPF 80 allow icmp from any to any # open well-known ports # FTP $IPF 120 allow tcp from any to any 20 in $IPF 121 allow tcp from any to any 20 out $IPF 122 allow tcp from any to any 21 in $IPF 123 allow tcp from any to any 21 out In inetd.conf, we've added -l -l -d but don't get any ftpd debug info written to /var/log/messages or /var/log/xferlog or dmesg system buffer. So what else is needed inf our ifpw.rules for the ftpd params to get the switch to Extended Passive Mode to run quickly? You're not understanding the FTP protocol properly, specifically the difference between Passive and Active mode. This is why you're having issues. You need to punch firewall holes to your FTP server on the following ports: Inbound: TCP port 21 (main ftpd daemon) Inbound: TCP ports 49152 to 65535 (used in FTP passive mode) Outbound: TCP port 20 (used in FTP active mode) Yes, you read that range correctly. And yes, it's quite large. Yes, there is a way to diminish it, but it will affect other programs on FreeBSD, so I do not recommend adjusting it. It's controlled by sysctls. See the -U option of ftpd, but note that it doesn't do anything for FreeBSD 5.0 or later. I highly recommend you stick the FTP server on its own IP address (e.g. bind the FTP server to its own IP using IP aliases), and then apply those rules to a specific IP address, e.g.: ipfw add 120 allow tcp from any to ftp.server.ip 21 in ipfw add 121 allow tcp from any to ftp.server.ip 49152-65536 in ipfw add 122 allow tcp from ftp.server.ip 20 to any out Finally, I recommend if this machine is RELENG_6 or later, that you look in to using pf(4) instead. You'll thank me later. :-) -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what else is needed to make ftp passive work
Len Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: two machines on the same private network. ftp 10.0.0.24 Connected to 10.0.0.24. 220 mx1.fairhope.net FTP server (Version 6.00LS) ready. Name (10.0.0.24:username): 331 Password required for username. Password: 230 User username logged in. Remote system type is UNIX. Using binary mode to transfer files. ftp ls 229 Entering Extended Passive Mode (|||64341|) at this point, there is a long delay, that eventually completes: 200 EPRT command successful. 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for '/bin/ls' ... and the rest of the ftp session runs fast. on the ftp server, if we ipfw disable firewall, the ftp session runs without delay. in hosts file, both machines have both of their records, so we don't think the delay is query for PTR of either IP. our ipfw.rules: On both machines? Only the one initiating the FTP session? # stateful $IPF 50 check-state $IPF 60 allow tcp from any to any established $IPF 70 allow all from any to any out keep-state $IPF 80 allow icmp from any to any # open well-known ports # FTP $IPF 120 allow tcp from any to any 20 in $IPF 121 allow tcp from any to any 20 out $IPF 122 allow tcp from any to any 21 in $IPF 123 allow tcp from any to any 21 out In inetd.conf, we've added -l -l -d but don't get any ftpd debug info written to /var/log/messages or /var/log/xferlog or dmesg system buffer. So what else is needed inf our ifpw.rules for the ftpd params to get the switch to Extended Passive Mode to run quickly? I'd recommend looking at the traffic being seen on the wire (e.g., with tcpdump(1) on the interface on the sending side). I'll guess, though, that you'll find that the data channel is being blocked from getting into the server. -- Lowell Gilbert, embedded/networking software engineer, Boston area http://be-well.ilk.org/~lowell/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what else is needed to make ftp passive work
Jeremy Chadwick wrote: Finally, I recommend if this machine is RELENG_6 or later, that you look in to using pf(4) instead. You'll thank me later. :-) Specifically ftp-proxy(8). Makes it almost feasible to support such an archaic and unfriendly-to-firewalling protocol as FTP and still retain at least a modicum of security. Cheers, Matthew, who is still bemused by peoples' assumption that just because it is called 'File Transfer Protocol' it is *the* way to transfer files. Hello! It's the 21st Century now. Try WebDAV. Try rsync -- either anonymous, or over ssh. Try sftp. Try scp. -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: what else is needed to make ftp passive work
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:13:30 -0700
Jeremy Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Inbound: TCP port 21 (main ftpd daemon)
Inbound: TCP ports 49152 to 65535(used in FTP passive mode)
Outbound: TCP port 20 (used in FTP active mode)
Yes, you read that range correctly. And yes, it's quite large. Yes,
there is a way to diminish it, but it will affect other programs on
FreeBSD, so I do not recommend adjusting it. It's controlled by
sysctls. See the -U option of ftpd, but note that it doesn't do
anything for FreeBSD 5.0 or later.
as far as I remember, FTP servers (with the not so unexpected exception of MS
IIS' FTP service) can be configured to listen on specific ports for passive
transfers.
If you don't have a busy server, a few ports ( 10 ? ) would do. Then you can
firewall it as needed.
This is, of course, an application (service ) configuration as opposed to what
Jeremy mentioned, I believe , which relies on the servers high ports
definition, which yes, will affect the whole tcp stack in the server.
B
_
{Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.
I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet.
Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been
Warned.
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Re: What is a recommended soundcard for FreeBSD?
Aniruddha wrote: On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 23:46 +0200, Patrick Lamaizière wrote: Le Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:42:43 +0200, Aniruddha [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Because of the problems with my onboard Intel HDA audio chip I plan to buy a soundcard that is supported by FreeBSD. There is a new hda driver in current, may be you can try it on RELENG_7? See http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-New-snd_hda-driver-came-in.-p19499206.html Good luck! Regards. Thanks I'll check it out.v In the meantime I'm real curious about FreeBSD user experience with X-fi :) Hi, I don't think the X-fi cards are supported in FreeBSD but I do know that in Linux they aren't. Personally, I have a Creative Audigy 4 and it works great. The snd_emu10kx driver provides support for Creative SoundBlaster Live! and Audigy sound cards. Best regards. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a recommended soundcard for FreeBSD?
On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 23:46 +0200, Patrick Lamaizière wrote: Le Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:42:43 +0200, Aniruddha [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Because of the problems with my onboard Intel HDA audio chip I plan to buy a soundcard that is supported by FreeBSD. There is a new hda driver in current, may be you can try it on RELENG_7? See http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-New-snd_hda-driver-came-in.-p19499206.html Good luck! Regards. Thanks I'll check it out.v In the meantime I'm real curious about FreeBSD user experience with X-fi :) -- Regards, Aniruddha ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a recommended soundcard for FreeBSD?
Le Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:42:43 +0200, Aniruddha [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Because of the problems with my onboard Intel HDA audio chip I plan to buy a soundcard that is supported by FreeBSD. There is a new hda driver in current, may be you can try it on RELENG_7? See http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-New-snd_hda-driver-came-in.-p19499206.html Good luck! Regards. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what are the top few mp3[4] Podcast helpers-apps for firefox-3.03?
On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:05:15 -0700 Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what should I select to be my default mp3/postcast player? mplayer? Andreas -- GnuPG key : 0x2A573565|http://www.gnupg.org/howtos/de/ Fingerprint: 925D 2089 0BF9 8DE5 9166 33BB F0FD CD37 2A57 3565 pgpmDv7tKzDgJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what are the top few mp3[4] Podcast helpers-apps for firefox-3.03?
On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:40:23PM +0200, Andreas Rudisch wrote: On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:05:15 -0700 Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what should I select to be my default mp3/postcast player? mplayer? Andreas Well, I tried Kmplayer; it works for some sites and hangs on kuow.org; so you somebody confirm this. Maybe it's the radio station and their mp3 feed is broken. (It says: Connecting... and hangs. BTW, I tried every other audio driver that kmplayer talks to. No diff. -- GnuPG key : 0x2A573565|http://www.gnupg.org/howtos/de/ Fingerprint: 925D 2089 0BF9 8DE5 9166 33BB F0FD CD37 2A57 3565 -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is hostuuid, hostid (for)?
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 04:26:21PM +0200, Sandra Kachelmann wrote: I just setup a new server with 7.0-RELEASE and saw the following lines for the fist time when booting the system: Setting hostuuid: 2231232f-4000--2333-aafbb88a88ca. Setting hostid: 0x89e3310b. What exactly are those for? Is it a unique string based on my hardware based on a certain component? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUID and /etc/rc.d/hostid. Roland -- R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) pgpgOMW4x9OWV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what do I do when a new piece of hardware doesn't even show up in dmesg?
You need to make certain all the necessary modules for your card are loaded. Try 'kldload ath' and then put the card in and see if that does anything. Also, use 'pciconf -lv' to confirm what the card is detected as. See the handbook on wireless configuration if that works. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what do I do when a new piece of hardware doesn't even show up in dmesg?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Steve Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:32 AM, David Gurvich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You need to make certain all the necessary modules for your card are loaded. Try 'kldload ath' and then put the card in and see if that does anything. Also, use 'pciconf -lv' to confirm what the card is detected as. See the handbook on wireless configuration if that works. It also fails to show up in pciconf -lv, but then, the compact flash card doesn't show up there either and it works fine. 7.0 loads if_ath and ath_hal by default. Steve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what do I do when a new piece of hardware doesn't even show up in dmesg?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:56 AM, David Gurvich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some atheros cards are not supported. Is there any error message? What is the card actually called? No error messages to speak of. It's like it's not there. It works fine in all my older laptops as ath0, I should have mentioned earlier. Really hating having bought a compaq. Steve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what do I do when a new piece of hardware doesn't even show up in dmesg?
No error messages to speak of. It's like it's not there. It works fine in all my older laptops as ath0, I should have mentioned earlier. Really hating having bought a compaq. does your PCMICA slot even work in FreeBSD, I have a Lenovo Notebook that it doesn;t even work. maybe try sending a Full dmesg if you could. Sam Fourman Jr. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what do I do when a new piece of hardware doesn't even show up in dmesg?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Steve Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only stumbling block to ditching windows on my laptop is a network card. I have a vanilla ath card that works fine under win32 and fedora, as well as a lucent-branded wi card. Neither even appears in dmesg when I put it in pccard0/cbb0. If I stick a compact flash card in an adapter, however, it looks to work (haven't tried mounting it). Anyway, how do I even start to debug this, since I have no output? I notice one of the lights on the card flashes when I plug it in, but that could just be part of it's power-up process... Eventually, I plan to hack my bios to get a unsupported network card to run without locking up the bios boot process, but from what I've read, that's alot of work... Thanks, Steve Have you checked the Hardware Notes for the version of FreeBSD that you're running? You can find links to the current versions' notes at: http://www.freebsd.org/releases/ That might give you some indication of whether the item is supported and whether there is a kernel module that you need to load. Best of luck, Andrew ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what do I do when a new piece of hardware doesn't even show up in dmesg?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Sam Fourman Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No error messages to speak of. It's like it's not there. It works fine in all my older laptops as ath0, I should have mentioned earlier. Really hating having bought a compaq. does your PCMICA slot even work in FreeBSD, I have a Lenovo Notebook that it doesn;t even work. maybe try sending a Full dmesg if you could. Sam Fourman Jr. Slot seems to work with a compact-flash adapter. dmesg looks normal if you stick in a compact flash. There is no dmesg output whatsoever when you put in a network card. I would assume HP put some nifty code in the bios to disable it, except it works under win32 fedora. Since there's no NIC, I'm not enclosing a dmesg. Steve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
FreeBSD is free. Everyone found it very funny though, it should be. But it should funny in different way. I think the FREE thing did not occur free to him. Why it is funny ? Cuz, in few countries, ppl has to pay for some products/UN food reliefs that are written and advertised as FREE / SAMPLE, NOT FOR SALE, includes food shampoo etc. Also expired in dates. Things that you get free from the sales girls at the door step of shopping malls. Now you see how it is funny ? On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:40 AM, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7? it's important for me. I must know. It is available for the low low price of $0 or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Kris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Aftab Jahan Subedar CEO/Software Engineer Subedar Technologies Ltd Soubedar Baag Bibir Bagicha #1 North Jatra Bari Dhaka 1204 Bangladesh http://www.DhakaStockExchangeGame.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On 7/21/08, Chad Perrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That wouldn't solve the problem of the US dollar being a fiat currency. Basically, under a fiat currency, trying to financially plan for the future is a matter of gambling the economy won't blow up in your face in the interim -- which is anything but a sure bet. All currency is fiat currency, unless you print it on toilet paper. Then it will have intrinsic value. Printing it on fish would work, too, but that would stink up your wallet. Gold is durable, but has no real intrinsic value. So print your money on toilet paper or food, then it will always have value. I'll sell you a copy of FreeBSD for a beer, plus shipping. See how well that works? Don't even have to do currency conversions. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
Bob Johnson wrote: On 7/21/08, Chad Perrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That wouldn't solve the problem of the US dollar being a fiat currency. Basically, under a fiat currency, trying to financially plan for the future is a matter of gambling the economy won't blow up in your face in the interim -- which is anything but a sure bet. All currency is fiat currency, unless you print it on toilet paper. Then it will have intrinsic value. Printing it on fish would work, too, but that would stink up your wallet. Gold is durable, but has no real intrinsic value. So print your money on toilet paper or food, then it will always have value. I'll sell you a copy of FreeBSD for a beer, plus shipping. See how well that works? Don't even have to do currency conversions. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please take any further off-topic discussion to chat. Thanks! Kris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 08:40:20AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 02:55:22PM +0700, OutBackDingo wrote: How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... I think this is a bit uncalled for, it might have been in a candid manner, but there are alot of locations in the world using FreeBSD quite effectively where most people live on less then a dollar a day Id also like to note your so called US dollar isnt fairing so well. Pretty soon might it also be worth 0.00. I do think we should try not to insult the ecomonics of other countries The US Dollar hasn't really been worth anything since 1975 at the latest. People just haven't figured that out yet. Neither have most of the things people are buying with it. So, it all evens out. It people only bought what they really need, the dollar would be high, and the economy would be totally stagnant. Who knows, maybe that would be better than what we have now. jerry -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed PDL: http://pdl.apotheon.org ] They always say that when life gives you lemons you should make lemonade. I always wonder -- isn't the lemonade going to suck if life doesn't give you any sugar? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 11:02:01AM -0400, Jerry McAllister wrote: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 08:40:20AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 02:55:22PM +0700, OutBackDingo wrote: How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... I think this is a bit uncalled for, it might have been in a candid manner, but there are alot of locations in the world using FreeBSD quite effectively where most people live on less then a dollar a day Id also like to note your so called US dollar isnt fairing so well. Pretty soon might it also be worth 0.00. I do think we should try not to insult the ecomonics of other countries The US Dollar hasn't really been worth anything since 1975 at the latest. People just haven't figured that out yet. Neither have most of the things people are buying with it. So, it all evens out. It people only bought what they really need, the dollar would be high, and the economy would be totally stagnant. Who knows, maybe that would be better than what we have now. That wouldn't solve the problem of the US dollar being a fiat currency. Basically, under a fiat currency, trying to financially plan for the future is a matter of gambling the economy won't blow up in your face in the interim -- which is anything but a sure bet. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed PDL: http://pdl.apotheon.org ] Jeff Henager: If the average user can put a CD in and boot the system and follow the prompts, he can install and use Linux. If he can't do that simple task, he doesn't need to be around technology. pgpnMToLQ4lib.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
Mike Jeays a écrit : On July 19, 2008 04:21:03 pm Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: On Saturday 19 July 2008 15:40:53 Kris Kennaway wrote: ... or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Kris ROFL to death ! Sorry .. couldn't help it ... You made me spit my pepsi all over my desktop ! Thanks!! How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... Your comments are useless and stigmatizes people who suffers (Zimbabwe). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... I think this is a bit uncalled for, it might have been in a candid manner, but there are alot of locations in the world using FreeBSD quite effectively where most people live on less then a dollar a day Id also like to note your so called US dollar isnt fairing so well. Pretty soon might it also be worth 0.00. I do think we should try not to insult the ecomonics of other countries ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
OutBackDingo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... I think this is a bit uncalled for, it might have been in a candid manner, but there are alot of locations in the world using FreeBSD quite effectively where most people live on less then a dollar a day Id also like to note your so called US dollar isnt fairing so well. Pretty soon might it also be worth 0.00. I do think we should try not to insult the ecomonics of other countries Your reply is full of fallacies, false assumptions and one or two non sequiturs. But anyway, this is thread is veering way off topic, so let's close it. Thanks. -- Sahil Tandon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
ROFL, right, whatever..!!! On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 04:40 -0400, Sahil Tandon wrote: full of fallacies, false assumptions and one or two non sequiturs. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
Let's see, ... that would be approximately $149*10^12 Zimbabwe. 10^3 - one thousand 10^6 - one million 10^9 - one billion 10^12 - one trillion 10^100 - one mugabe ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:18:13PM +0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7? it's important for me. I must know. Regardless of how far Off Topic some seem to want to go, the reply by Kris is correct. FreeBSD is free. The only cost is media to burn your own boot CD. You can download it all freely from the www.freebsd.org website.The handbook on that site will tell you how. Read it carefully first. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 02:55:22PM +0700, OutBackDingo wrote: How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... I think this is a bit uncalled for, it might have been in a candid manner, but there are alot of locations in the world using FreeBSD quite effectively where most people live on less then a dollar a day Id also like to note your so called US dollar isnt fairing so well. Pretty soon might it also be worth 0.00. I do think we should try not to insult the ecomonics of other countries The US Dollar hasn't really been worth anything since 1975 at the latest. People just haven't figured that out yet. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed PDL: http://pdl.apotheon.org ] They always say that when life gives you lemons you should make lemonade. I always wonder -- isn't the lemonade going to suck if life doesn't give you any sugar? pgpkAZ6Kh19MJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 09:49:30AM -0400, Jerry McAllister wrote: On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:18:13PM +0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7? it's important for me. I must know. Regardless of how far Off Topic some seem to want to go, the reply by Kris is correct. FreeBSD is free. The only cost is media to burn your own boot CD. You can download it all freely from the www.freebsd.org website.The handbook on that site will tell you how. Read it carefully first. . . . and you don't necessarily need a boot CD to install FreeBSD, so even that cost is optional. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed PDL: http://pdl.apotheon.org ] Edmund Burke: Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgement; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion. pgp3zjDF1Wfq1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:40:20 -0600 Chad Perrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The US Dollar hasn't really been worth anything since 1975 at the latest. People just haven't figured that out yet. In that case, would you be so kind as to forward all of those worthless US Dollars to me. I will be more than glad to relieve you of the burden of domiciling them. Interestingly enough, the price of oil is still tied to the US Dollar. -- Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Small change can often be found under seat cushions. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Jul 20, 2008, at 1:24 AM, Gaye Abdoulaye Walsimou wrote: Mike Jeays a écrit : On July 19, 2008 04:21:03 pm Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: On Saturday 19 July 2008 15:40:53 Kris Kennaway wrote: ... or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Kris ROFL to death ! Sorry .. couldn't help it ... You made me spit my pepsi all over my desktop ! Thanks!! How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... Your comments are useless and stigmatizes people who suffers (Zimbabwe). Stigmatizes people in Zimbabwe? Huh? If anything it draws sympathy for them --- Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Your Web App and Email hosting provider chad at shire.net ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Your comments are useless and stigmatizes people who suffers (Zimbabwe). Stigmatizes people in Zimbabwe? Huh? If anything it draws sympathy for them Two or so years ago, I used to tell a fellow from ZM whom I got to know online, that they (Zimbabweans) needed to topple Mugabe (yes, I mean it) as he was messing them up big style. The inflation rate then was not as bad as it is now, besides the fact that the citizens are limited to what amount they can withdraw from their bank accounts. I feel Zimbabwe is worth talking about in every forum, as it's a classic case about how humans can be subjected to suffering by a despot! -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards! --from a /. post ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7? it's important for me. I must know. It is available for the low low price of $0 or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Kris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Saturday 19 July 2008 15:40:53 Kris Kennaway wrote: ... or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Kris ROFL to death ! Sorry .. couldn't help it ... You made me spit my pepsi all over my desktop ! Thanks!! -- Blessings Gonzalo Nemmi ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008, Kris Kennaway wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7? it's important for me. I must know. It is available for the low low price of $0 or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Let's see, ... that would be approximately $149*10^12 Zimbabwe. -- Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/index.html 8800 N IH35 APT 1191 AUSTIN TX 78753-5266 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What price at the license of FreeBSD 7?
On July 19, 2008 04:21:03 pm Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: On Saturday 19 July 2008 15:40:53 Kris Kennaway wrote: ... or the equivalent in your local currency. Yes really :) Kris ROFL to death ! Sorry .. couldn't help it ... You made me spit my pepsi all over my desktop ! Thanks!! How many Zimbabwe dollars, I wonder? This seems to give the finest measurement for approximations to zero... -- Mike Jeays http://www.jeays.ca ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What would it take to be mentored here?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Jonathan Curtis wrote: | Hello, Hi Jonathan, great to see you interested in FreeBSD :) While I have no recipe for you, I would like to share my experience, since when I started using FreeBSD I was exactly in the same situation your're finding yourself right now: I was very enthusiastic and willing to lear, help and contribute but couldn't event understand most messages being post on technical mailing lists (you mentioned hackers@, did you? ;P ). I started using FreeBSD for my daily tasks and realized that the infamous man pages (yep, TFM pages) was a great source of knowledge. I started following questions@, hackers@, current@ and stable@ and tried to get useful information out of those. Most messages were rather cryptic at first, but as the time passed I was able to sometimes answer to other users' questions (although most times wrongly...). After a while, let's say 1 year or so, I began to read through the source code when I couldn't find the information I was looking for in the man pages or on the mailing lists. This lead me to produce the first ~ small patches (ranging from documentation clean-ups to feature additions to nonsense). I got the opportunity to begin contributing more on a regular basis when the infamous transition GCC 3.4 - GCC 4.2 began. I happened to be quite familiar with the C standard and GCC and I found myself interested in fixing port which didn't build anymore because of GCC problems. That's the field where I actually submitted most of my PRs to date. After a few dozens PRs I was caught by the eye of a committer (miwi@, tnx!) who just began taking care of me and my PRs. I began a ports committer a few months later. Now I mainly contribute in fixing (old, broken, unmaintained, unwanted, nobody-cares, crap) ports and trying to resuscitate some interest in sparc64. As you can see, there is no wanted skill or preferred goals. The project is large enough that your interests can probably match some FreeBSD need. The only advice I can give you is, don't give up. As time passes you will realize how beautiful this OS is, well structured, well documented, with nice people working at/with it. As an end note, please keep an eye to the project ideas for volunteers, at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ , you'll likely find something catching your attention and matching your interests there sooner or later! Thanks, keep on! | | I was intrigued by this statement on the FreeBSD News Flash page: The | FreeBSD Project is always willing to help mentor students learn more | about operating system development through our normal community | mailing lists and development forums. Contributing to an open source | software project is a valuable component of a computer science | education and great preparation for a career in software development. | | Presently, I'm quite unqualified to contribute to an open-source | project, but I definitely want to make this a goal. | | I'm currently in my first year of studies in Computer Science and | Programming. After acquiring an Associate's Degree from a technical | school, I intend to transfer to a traditional university. I | self-learned C++ starting at about age 15 but left off for a little | while until finally starting college (later than most). My knowledge | of C++ programming is probably on the high end of intermediate (my | high school programming class was a joke, and I was able to complete | the final projects for college Introduction to Programming before even | starting the course), although I have little experience doing | practical programming work. | | I was attracted to free/open-source software because of its quality | and the high technical competence of its users. I started learning | Linux, but after some research I quickly realized that FreeBSD is | probably a much technically superior operating system (although all | OSes have their use). I have a basic knowledge of Unix-like operating | systems in general. I've been learning about FreeBSD by lurking on a | few of the mailing lists, but haven't yet had the courage to subscribe | to the hackers list. | | Since I'm still such a beginner and experienced developers probably | don't want to mentor the basic programming skills learned in school, | I'm not looking to contribute to a project anytime soon. (For example, | I saw Gabor Kovesdan's student project posted to the wip-status list. | I'm familiar with regular expressions, but I can safely say that I | have no idea how I would implement even a basic grep program.) But | since I enjoy computers both as a hobby and an intended profession, my | goal is to be eventually skilled enough to make valuable contributions | to the free software community. I'm intelligent, a good learner, and I | certainly won't limit my knowledge to what they teach in school. | | I would like to know what specific skill sets the developers here want | to see in a student to be mentored, as well as some more
RE: what ype of app? port of *free*-service app?
From: Gary Kline On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 08:08:11AM -0400, Bob McConnell wrote: On Behalf Of Gary Kline: This is a bit hard to figure out how to phrase, so please bear with me. I want to put-back a BBS/forum type app somewhere on my site so that members of my writing group can continue to help me with their suggestions and edits of my Jottings project. Some people are taking a break for the summer, c. I've had PHPBB up a few times, and lost it as many times for different reasons. It takes about an hour to set up one of these ``forum'' applications; I don't know about the others. Does anyone have a best-win/solution as to which port/package to use? Or would it be just as good to go with a canned (javascript or other) app? Again: the nutshell is to allow my fellow writers to comment-on, edit, suggest, critique, flame, whatever, my jotting meditation. [for now, the URL would not be published.] Have you looked at any wiki software? I have Dokuwiki running on an Apache server here at the office as an idea and collaboration incubator. There were over 1100 pages created on it the first year. It's all written in PHP and was quite simple to set up. You can get it at http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:dokuwiki. Bob McConnell thanks for the url, bob. i'll pull it up next time i use a gui mailer. wiki would let us edit things. IIRC. but it may be over-kill too. i checked out what was, i believe, plone last week. i don't remember seeing plone on the opencma list. (still chewing it over with my fellow writers.unfortunately, none is a techno-geek.) i believe you that dokuwiki was easy to set up. how easy is/was it to *use*, tho? ---I'm following the gimp tutorial, but still cannot get anything to work. so if there are docs for this wiki software, they've got to be fairly well tested. There is an active group of folks using and maintaining Dokuwiki. That link goes to their wiki where they are using it for documentation. Access control is flexible, but optional. There was a new release in the past month or so which included support for a WYSIWYG editor plug-in. Without that, you do need to learn a few specific markup conventions, but they were never very difficult. You can edit everything from your browser. Footnotes, line-through deletion and other editing conventions are supported. But the best part is the change tracking that is built in. You can trace each and every change if you need to. Good luck, Bob McConnell ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: what ype of app? port of *free*-service app?
On Behalf Of Gary Kline: This is a bit hard to figure out how to phrase, so please bear with me. I want to put-back a BBS/forum type app somewhere on my site so that members of my writing group can continue to help me with their suggestions and edits of my Jottings project. Some people are taking a break for the summer, c. I've had PHPBB up a few times, and lost it as many times for different reasons. It takes about an hour to set up one of these ``forum'' applications; I don't know about the others. Does anyone have a best-win/solution as to which port/package to use? Or would it be just as good to go with a canned (javascript or other) app? Again: the nutshell is to allow my fellow writers to comment-on, edit, suggest, critique, flame, whatever, my jotting meditation. [for now, the URL would not be published.] Have you looked at any wiki software? I have Dokuwiki running on an Apache server here at the office as an idea and collaboration incubator. There were over 1100 pages created on it the first year. It's all written in PHP and was quite simple to set up. You can get it at http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:dokuwiki. Bob McConnell ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what ype of app? port of *free*-service app?
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 08:08:11AM -0400, Bob McConnell wrote: On Behalf Of Gary Kline: This is a bit hard to figure out how to phrase, so please bear with me. I want to put-back a BBS/forum type app somewhere on my site so that members of my writing group can continue to help me with their suggestions and edits of my Jottings project. Some people are taking a break for the summer, c. I've had PHPBB up a few times, and lost it as many times for different reasons. It takes about an hour to set up one of these ``forum'' applications; I don't know about the others. Does anyone have a best-win/solution as to which port/package to use? Or would it be just as good to go with a canned (javascript or other) app? Again: the nutshell is to allow my fellow writers to comment-on, edit, suggest, critique, flame, whatever, my jotting meditation. [for now, the URL would not be published.] Have you looked at any wiki software? I have Dokuwiki running on an Apache server here at the office as an idea and collaboration incubator. There were over 1100 pages created on it the first year. It's all written in PHP and was quite simple to set up. You can get it at http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:dokuwiki. Bob McConnell thanks for the url, bob. i'll pull it up next time i use a gui mailer. wiki would let us edit things. IIRC. but it may be over-kill too. i checked out what was, i believe, plone last week. i don't remember seeing plone on the opencma list. (still chewing it over with my fellow writers.unfortunately, none is a techno-geek.) i believe you that dokuwiki was easy to set up. how easy is/was it to *use*, tho? ---I'm following the gimp tutorial, but still cannot get anything to work. so if there are docs for this wiki software, they've got to be fairly well tested. gary -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what ype of app? port of *free*-service app?
On 9-Jun-08, at 5:31 PM, Gary Kline wrote: This is a bit hard to figure out how to phrase, so please bear with me. I want to put-back a BBS/forum type app somewhere on my site so that members of my writing group can continue to help me with their suggestions and edits of my Jottings project. Some people are taking a break for the summer, c. It sounds like you might want a Wiki of some kind. Mediawiki and MoinMoin are both good, and if you're dealing with source code take a look at Trac. phpBB is pretty decent, but I haven't used it in a while. Most CMS's also include forums of some kind. I'm partial to Drupal, but there's a good selection of choices at http://www.opensourcecms.com/ , and many of the popular ones will be in the ports tree. --Andrew
Re: what ype of app? port of *free*-service app?
On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 11:50:45PM -0400, Andrew Berry wrote: On 9-Jun-08, at 5:31 PM, Gary Kline wrote: This is a bit hard to figure out how to phrase, so please bear with me. I want to put-back a BBS/forum type app somewhere on my site so that members of my writing group can continue to help me with their suggestions and edits of my Jottings project. Some people are taking a break for the summer, c. It sounds like you might want a Wiki of some kind. Mediawiki and MoinMoin are both good, and if you're dealing with source code take a look at Trac. phpBB is pretty decent, but I haven't used it in a while. Most CMS's also include forums of some kind. I'm partial to Drupal, but there's a good selection of choices at http://www.opensourcecms.com/ , and many of the popular ones will be in the ports tree. --Andrew hey, a kwik thankyew, andrew more tomorrow, ii dont know WHY i've been this tired in recent weeks, but i am. gary ps: What a wealth of software; it boggles my mind. have just checked with my group. -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What consists FreeBSD Libc?
Unga wrote: Hi all What consists FreeBSD Libc (/lib/libc.so.7)? Is it only /usr/src/lib/libc/* ? Yes. I have compiled /usr/src/lib/libc/*, the resulting libc.so.7 is about 65,000 bytes smaller. Than what? It will change depending on your CFLAGS. Kris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What consists FreeBSD Libc?
with the same compiler options and same compiler as used with binary distribution? On Sun, 8 Jun 2008, Unga wrote: Hi all What consists FreeBSD Libc (/lib/libc.so.7)? Is it only /usr/src/lib/libc/* ? I have compiled /usr/src/lib/libc/*, the resulting libc.so.7 is about 65,000 bytes smaller. Kind regards Unga ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What consists FreeBSD Libc?
--- On Sun, 6/8/08, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: What consists FreeBSD Libc? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 6:37 PM Unga wrote: Hi all What consists FreeBSD Libc (/lib/libc.so.7)? Is it only /usr/src/lib/libc/* ? Yes. I have compiled /usr/src/lib/libc/*, the resulting libc.so.7 is about 65,000 bytes smaller. Than what? It will change depending on your CFLAGS. Thanks Kris Wojciech for replies. Its great to get it confirmed that FreeBSD Libc is only /usr/src/lib/libc/* as I presumed. I have compiled and installed the FreeBSD Libc into a temp directory. The size of /tmp/libc.so.7 is about 65,000 bytes smaller than /lib/libc.so.7. The /lib/libc.so.7 is dated May 25, 2008. I did not touch CFLAGS or anything other than DESTDIR. But I really forgot, the gcc version is different. The /lib/libc.so.7 is by gcc 4.2.1, but the /tmp/libc.so.7 is by gcc 4.3.0. May be the code generation of the latest gcc may be better. I think the size difference may not be an issue as the libc is get it compiled and installed without any error. The GNU glibc has a make check, but there is no make check target for FreeBSD libc. How do you guys test it? Is the /usr/src/tools/regression/ any help for that? Regards Unga ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What consists FreeBSD Libc?
Its great to get it confirmed that FreeBSD Libc is only /usr/src/lib/libc/* as I presumed. I have compiled and installed the FreeBSD Libc into a temp directory. The size of /tmp/libc.so.7 is about 65,000 bytes smaller than /lib/libc.so.7. The /lib/libc.so.7 is dated May 25, 2008. I did not touch CFLAGS or anything other than DESTDIR. But I really forgot, the gcc version is different. The /lib/libc.so.7 is by gcc 4.2.1, but the /tmp/libc.so.7 is by gcc 4.3.0. May be the code generation of the latest gcc may be better. indeed it is better. while difference between gcc 3.* and 4.* is HUGE in respect of code size. after i upgraded to FreeBSD 7 from 6.3 (so gcc got upgraded to 4.*) i recompiled bash. same version, 20% smaller! finally gcc turned to rule small code=fast code, always true on processors with at least 1 level of cache, not mentioning 2 or 3 cache levels :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is /usr/local/bin/gsc ?
Assuming it was installed from ports, if you have portupgrade installed you could try pkg_which /usr/local/bin/gsc For me this gives [11:59:40:/usr/home/jhary] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])$pkg_which /usr/local/bin/gsc ghostscript-gpl-8.62_2 Ghostscript is a postscript interpreter which would make sense since most printers talk postscript. Vince Anton Shterenlikht wrote: Hi What is /usr/local/bin/gsc ? I run FreeBSD 6.3-STABLE #2 on compaq armada laptop. When I send a job for printing I see gsc process running: PID USERNAMETHR PRI NICE SIZERES STATETIME WCPU COMMAND [skip] 99954 daemon1 1170 27244K 19000K RUN 0:05 30.08% gsc % which gsc /usr/local/bin/gsc % However, I cannot find any info on gsc. The latest I've found is from 5.2-release, some gsc(4) -- a device driver for a handy scanner. I doubt this is it. Could somebody tell me what gsc is and what it does. many thanks anton ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is /usr/local/bin/gsc ?
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 11:53:47AM +0100, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: Hi What is /usr/local/bin/gsc ? If you have portupgrade, pkg_which(1) can tell you. gsc is actually gs, which is ghostscript. Cheers. -- Jonathan Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Only the meek get pinched. The bold survive. - Ferris Bueller ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is /usr/local/bin/gsc ?
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 03:03:48PM +0400, Yuri Pankov wrote: Anton Shterenlikht wrote: Hi What is /usr/local/bin/gsc ? I run FreeBSD 6.3-STABLE #2 on compaq armada laptop. When I send a job for printing I see gsc process running: PID USERNAMETHR PRI NICE SIZERES STATETIME WCPU COMMAND [skip] 99954 daemon1 1170 27244K 19000K RUN 0:05 30.08% gsc % which gsc /usr/local/bin/gsc % First, check if there's manpage with description for gsc :-) You can also check which package installed that file: pkg_info -W /usr/local/bin/gsc thanks, I missed this switch, it's very useful. anton -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is /usr/local/bin/gsc ?
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 10:59:31PM +1200, Jonathan Chen wrote: On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 11:53:47AM +0100, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: Hi What is /usr/local/bin/gsc ? If you have portupgrade, pkg_which(1) can tell you. gsc is actually gs, which is ghostscript. thanks I use portmaster, so pkg_info -La tmp; vi tmp (and seach for gsc) did this for me. -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is /usr/local/bin/gsc ?
Anton Shterenlikht wrote: Hi What is /usr/local/bin/gsc ? I run FreeBSD 6.3-STABLE #2 on compaq armada laptop. When I send a job for printing I see gsc process running: PID USERNAMETHR PRI NICE SIZERES STATETIME WCPU COMMAND [skip] 99954 daemon1 1170 27244K 19000K RUN 0:05 30.08% gsc % which gsc /usr/local/bin/gsc % First, check if there's manpage with description for gsc :-) You can also check which package installed that file: pkg_info -W /usr/local/bin/gsc (and as you mentioned printing, I'd think it was installed by ghostscript package) and follow the URL in pkg-descr. However, I cannot find any info on gsc. The latest I've found is from 5.2-release, some gsc(4) -- a device driver for a handy scanner. I doubt this is it. Could somebody tell me what gsc is and what it does. many thanks anton HTH, Yuri ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is /usr/local/bin/gsc ?
Anton Shterenlikht wrote: Jonathan Chen wrote: Anton Shterenlikht wrote: What is /usr/local/bin/gsc ? If you have portupgrade, pkg_which(1) can tell you. gsc is actually gs, which is ghostscript. thanks I use portmaster, so pkg_info -La tmp; vi tmp (and seach for gsc) did this for me. You can use pkg_info -W to find out to which package a file belongs. It's a base-system feature; you don't have to use portupgrade, portmaster or anything else. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Unix gives you just enough rope to hang yourself -- and then a couple of more feet, just to be sure. -- Eric Allman ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is CPP's real default include path?
On Monday 05 May 2008 10:12:05 Walt Pawley wrote: I've been fiddling with compiling nzbget-0.4.0 on a 6.3 system. My initial efforts failed the configuration process for not finding iconv.h. This, despite /usr/local/include/iconv.h being present and supposedly in the include search path if the info documentation can be believed. Just to see if I could learn something, I copied the /usr/local/include/iconv.h to /usr/include/ and tried again. After this, the configuration process completed and the application seemed to make and make install just fine. Is there some way to ascertain what the set of default include paths actually is? Even though cc has a million options, there's none that I know that prints the system include path (not even in -dumpspecs). However, in practice you can assume it's /usr/include. To make configure scripts believe you have something installed, it's not a good idea to copy headers. Look for a --with-iconv=/usr/local option and failing that, change CFLAGS and LDFLAGS in the environment when configuring. -- Mel Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules and never get to the software part. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is CPP's real default include path?
At 12:06 PM +0200 5/5/08, Mel wrote: On Monday 05 May 2008 10:12:05 Walt Pawley wrote: I've been fiddling with compiling nzbget-0.4.0 on a 6.3 system. My initial efforts failed the configuration process for not finding iconv.h. This, despite /usr/local/include/iconv.h being present and supposedly in the include search path if the info documentation can be believed. Just to see if I could learn something, I copied the /usr/local/include/iconv.h to /usr/include/ and tried again. After this, the configuration process completed and the application seemed to make and make install just fine. Is there some way to ascertain what the set of default include paths actually is? Even though cc has a million options, there's none that I know that prints the system include path (not even in -dumpspecs). However, in practice you can assume it's /usr/include. To make configure scripts believe you have something installed, it's not a good idea to copy headers. Look for a --with-iconv=/usr/local option and failing that, change CFLAGS and LDFLAGS in the environment when configuring. Admonition understood - I was just experimenting and wanted the file to be in a specific place without any uncertainty about just what various look over there options actually do. The reason for such a mind set is that actual behavior of cpp seems to differ from its documentation, to wit: info cpp :: Header Files::Search Path reads: GCC looks in several different places for headers. On a normal Unix system, if you do not instruct it otherwise, it will look for headers requested with `#include FILE' in: /usr/local/include LIBDIR/gcc/TARGET/VERSION/include /usr/TARGET/include /usr/include I'm either missing something very fundamental (which I doubt not at all) or this should be a somewhat serious problem. There are 4944 header files in /usr/local/include/ branch on this system that should be accessible by default but, if my experience with nzbget is any guide, do not seem to be. -- Walter M. Pawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wump Research Company 676 River Bend Road, Roseburg, OR 97470 541-672-8975 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is CPP's real default include path?
On Monday 05 May 2008 20:42:23 Walt Pawley wrote: At 12:06 PM +0200 5/5/08, Mel wrote: On Monday 05 May 2008 10:12:05 Walt Pawley wrote: I've been fiddling with compiling nzbget-0.4.0 on a 6.3 system. My initial efforts failed the configuration process for not finding iconv.h. This, despite /usr/local/include/iconv.h being present and supposedly in the include search path if the info documentation can be believed. Just to see if I could learn something, I copied the /usr/local/include/iconv.h to /usr/include/ and tried again. After this, the configuration process completed and the application seemed to make and make install just fine. Is there some way to ascertain what the set of default include paths actually is? Even though cc has a million options, there's none that I know that prints the system include path (not even in -dumpspecs). However, in practice you can assume it's /usr/include. To make configure scripts believe you have something installed, it's not a good idea to copy headers. Look for a --with-iconv=/usr/local option and failing that, change CFLAGS and LDFLAGS in the environment when configuring. Admonition understood - I was just experimenting and wanted the file to be in a specific place without any uncertainty about just what various look over there options actually do. The reason for such a mind set is that actual behavior of cpp seems to differ from its documentation, to wit: info cpp :: Header Files::Search Path reads: FreeBSD uses a modified version of GCC. Info files haven't been updated to reflect that. GCC looks in several different places for headers. On a normal Unix system, if you do not instruct it otherwise, it will look for headers requested with `#include FILE' in: /usr/local/include Nope. LIBDIR/gcc/TARGET/VERSION/include /usr/TARGET/include No idea really. /usr/include Yep. -- Mel Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules and never get to the software part. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is CPP's real default include path?
At 12:06 PM +0200 5/5/08, Mel wrote: On Monday 05 May 2008 10:12:05 Walt Pawley wrote: I've been fiddling with compiling nzbget-0.4.0 on a 6.3 system. My initial efforts failed the configuration process for not finding iconv.h. This, despite /usr/local/include/iconv.h being present and supposedly in the include search path if the info documentation can be believed. Just to see if I could learn something, I copied the /usr/local/include/iconv.h to /usr/include/ and tried again. After this, the configuration process completed and the application seemed to make and make install just fine. Is there some way to ascertain what the set of default include paths actually is? Even though cc has a million options, there's none that I know that prints the system include path (not even in -dumpspecs). However, in practice you can assume it's /usr/include. I bumped into the description of the -v flag whilst perusing the cpp info docs and did this ... after removing the ersatz /usr/include/iconv.h mentioned above. Apparently these paths are compiled in (???). %cat x #include iconv.h %cpp -v x Using built-in specs. Configured with: FreeBSD/i386 system compiler Thread model: posix gcc version 3.4.6 [FreeBSD] 20060305 /usr/libexec/cc1 -E -quiet -v -D_LONGLONG x ignoring duplicate directory /usr/include #include ... search starts here: #include ... search starts here: /usr/include End of search list. # 1 x # 1 built-in # 1 command line # 1 x x:1:19: iconv.h: No such file or directory -- Walter M. Pawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wump Research Company 676 River Bend Road, Roseburg, OR 97470 541-672-8975 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What happened to NO_OPENSSH in make.conf with FreeBSD 7?
In the last episode (Apr 23), FreeBSD said: Hello everyone, With FreeBSD 6.2-Release, I added the option NO_OPENSSH=true in the make.conf I use to build jails. But, I just rebuilded a jail in FreeBSD 7-Release and I realized at the mergemaster step of the update that there were a lot of files related to OpenSSH that needed to be installed. By checking the man and /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf, I find no reference to this option anymore. Can someone shed some light on this? They have been converted to ports-style WITH/WITHOUT_* flags, and the preferred location is /etc/src.conf (so as to not add unnecessary defines to other programs that happen to use make). See the src.conf manpage for the full list. I thought the NO_* flags were still supported, though (according to the 20060317 /usr/src/UPDATING entry). -- Dan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a good printer/all-in-one?
Hi Isaac, this is a good start: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting In the 'printer' section you find a ranking and evaluation how the printers do on unixoid systems. Cheers herbs mount -t wbush /dev/whitehouse /dev/nul On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:12:52 -0400 Isaac Mushinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My 10-year-old deskjet being out of ink and probably not worth a replacement cartridge (it works, but makes some mechanical noise lately), I am considering a reasonable replacement, preferably with scanning/copy possibilities. I tried to get Photosmart C4280, but while I was trying a faulty printcap on it, it lost its mind permanently (says 'incompatible print cartridges', and does not respond to the button combinations that HP support thinks should reset it). Besides, you can either attach it as ulpt or uscanner device, or play with hplip drivers as a generic device, but it seems too confusing. It was a waste of time and money for me and I am going to return it. Requirements: 1. Reasonable physical size (should not be much larger than the old deskjet). 2. Either network/lpd or USB, scanner should be well supported by sane. If used via USB, it should be a compound device (i.e. printer, scanner and, if there, the umass device should appear as separate devices to avoid kld-loading and unloading modules). I heard Epsons show up as compound devices? any HP laserjets? 3. Reasonable maintenance cost (maybe a laser printer, I do not care for color printing that much). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a good printer/all-in-one?
Yes, I saw that. But FreeBSD is not linux, and using multiple drivers for the same device is more of a problem for us. HPLIP, on the other hand, requires bare ugen, not loading ulpt or uscanner or perhaps even umass, a very unnatural and cumbersome thing for me (I want umass, and I also sometimes use a Nikon photo film scanner, which work via sane). Thus I am looking for a network device, or if USB, then it should appear as separate uscanner/ulpt/umass. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:08 PM, herbert langhans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isaac, this is a good start: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting In the 'printer' section you find a ranking and evaluation how the printers do on unixoid systems. Cheers herbs mount -t wbush /dev/whitehouse /dev/nul On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:12:52 -0400 Isaac Mushinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My 10-year-old deskjet being out of ink and probably not worth a replacement cartridge (it works, but makes some mechanical noise lately), I am considering a reasonable replacement, preferably with scanning/copy possibilities. I tried to get Photosmart C4280, but while I was trying a faulty printcap on it, it lost its mind permanently (says 'incompatible print cartridges', and does not respond to the button combinations that HP support thinks should reset it). Besides, you can either attach it as ulpt or uscanner device, or play with hplip drivers as a generic device, but it seems too confusing. It was a waste of time and money for me and I am going to return it. Requirements: 1. Reasonable physical size (should not be much larger than the old deskjet). 2. Either network/lpd or USB, scanner should be well supported by sane. If used via USB, it should be a compound device (i.e. printer, scanner and, if there, the umass device should appear as separate devices to avoid kld-loading and unloading modules). I heard Epsons show up as compound devices? any HP laserjets? 3. Reasonable maintenance cost (maybe a laser printer, I do not care for color printing that much). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a good printer/all-in-one?
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Isaac Mushinsky wrote: Yes, I saw that. But FreeBSD is not linux, and using multiple drivers for the same device is more of a problem for us. HPLIP, on the other hand, requires bare ugen, not loading ulpt or uscanner or perhaps even umass, a very unnatural and cumbersome thing for me (I want umass, and I also sometimes use a Nikon photo film scanner, which work via sane). You can use umass devices with HPLIP, but you must load umass after the printer has attached as a ugen device. Then you can attach and detach umass devices as much as you please. You seem to imply there is a conflict between uscanner devices, but I don't see what that conflict might be. Uscanner will not grab the scanner function of a multifunction printer with hplip. It doesn't appear there is a conflict of executable names either. Thus I am looking for a network device, or if USB, then it should appear as separate uscanner/ulpt/umass. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:08 PM, herbert langhans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isaac, this is a good start: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting In the 'printer' section you find a ranking and evaluation how the printers do on unixoid systems. Cheers herbs mount -t wbush /dev/whitehouse /dev/nul On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:12:52 -0400 Isaac Mushinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My 10-year-old deskjet being out of ink and probably not worth a replacement cartridge (it works, but makes some mechanical noise lately), I am considering a reasonable replacement, preferably with scanning/copy possibilities. I tried to get Photosmart C4280, but while I was trying a faulty printcap on it, it lost its mind permanently (says 'incompatible print cartridges', and does not respond to the button combinations that HP support thinks should reset it). Besides, you can either attach it as ulpt or uscanner device, or play with hplip drivers as a generic device, but it seems too confusing. It was a waste of time and money for me and I am going to return it. Requirements: 1. Reasonable physical size (should not be much larger than the old deskjet). 2. Either network/lpd or USB, scanner should be well supported by sane. If used via USB, it should be a compound device (i.e. printer, scanner and, if there, the umass device should appear as separate devices to avoid kld-loading and unloading modules). I heard Epsons show up as compound devices? any HP laserjets? 3. Reasonable maintenance cost (maybe a laser printer, I do not care for color printing that much). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/index.html 8800 N IH35 APT 1191 AUSTIN TX 78753-5266 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a good printer/all-in-one?
Lars Eighner wrote: On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Isaac Mushinsky wrote: Yes, I saw that. But FreeBSD is not linux, and using multiple drivers for the same device is more of a problem for us. HPLIP, on the other hand, requires bare ugen, not loading ulpt or uscanner or perhaps even umass, a very unnatural and cumbersome thing for me (I want umass, and I also sometimes use a Nikon photo film scanner, which work via sane). You can use umass devices with HPLIP, but you must load umass after the printer has attached as a ugen device. Then you can attach and detach umass devices as much as you please. You seem to imply there is a conflict between uscanner devices, but I don't see what that conflict might be. Uscanner will not grab the scanner function of a multifunction printer with hplip. It doesn't appear there is a conflict of executable names either. There is absolutely no all-in-one device which will work out of box with FreeBSD. HP devices as you noticed require kernel recompilation and have that undocumented umass driver removal and load. They are probably best bet but they are expensive (I am talking laser as I would stay away from ink-jets by all means). The second group of devices which should work out of box Epson CX all-in-one class devices (which are ink jet so I would stay a way from them anyway) are not listed in uscanner driver so they will not work out of box without manually adding your devices into the driver and then recompiling despite the fact that epson and epson2 backends support them. Future of Epson scanners is bleak on FreeBSD as Epson has released proprietary drivers for Linux. I believe any effort for writing sane-backends for Epson scanners has terminated. I personally like Brother all-in-one monochromatic devices for home use which are probably $150-200 cheaper than equivalent HP devices. I have seen good all-on-one for $120-150 on line. Brother has scanner drivers for them brscan and brscan2 but those drivers have hidden binary blob libraries which depend on Linux kernel. They can not be compiled on FreeBSD. I talked to their technical support in Japan and they were the one to tell me to give up and disclosed quite a few information about them. Samsung has very cheap color laser jet printer which often require Splix driver (ported for FreeBSD but version 2.0 which is written from ground up is expected soon). I have no idea about their scanners but you can get refurbished color laser jet form Samsung for $100 if you are lucky. They are probably way to go if you need color printing too. I personally would get an honest printer which in the worst case scenario speaks PCL possibly with flat bad copier and get used scanner for $10 which is explicitly listed on hardware notes of FreeBSD. If you are doing lots of scanning I would even considering deploying Linux unless uscanner, ugen, and few other drivers which are at the moment incapable of getting Vendor and Product ID get better. Cheers, Predrag Thus I am looking for a network device, or if USB, then it should appear as separate uscanner/ulpt/umass. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:08 PM, herbert langhans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isaac, this is a good start: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting In the 'printer' section you find a ranking and evaluation how the printers do on unixoid systems. Cheers herbs mount -t wbush /dev/whitehouse /dev/nul On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:12:52 -0400 Isaac Mushinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My 10-year-old deskjet being out of ink and probably not worth a replacement cartridge (it works, but makes some mechanical noise lately), I am considering a reasonable replacement, preferably with scanning/copy possibilities. I tried to get Photosmart C4280, but while I was trying a faulty printcap on it, it lost its mind permanently (says 'incompatible print cartridges', and does not respond to the button combinations that HP support thinks should reset it). Besides, you can either attach it as ulpt or uscanner device, or play with hplip drivers as a generic device, but it seems too confusing. It was a waste of time and money for me and I am going to return it. Requirements: 1. Reasonable physical size (should not be much larger than the old deskjet). 2. Either network/lpd or USB, scanner should be well supported by sane. If used via USB, it should be a compound device (i.e. printer, scanner and, if there, the umass device should appear as separate devices to avoid kld-loading and unloading modules). I heard Epsons show up as compound devices? any HP laserjets? 3. Reasonable maintenance cost (maybe a laser printer, I do not care for color printing that much). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is a EOF or NL
Bob Falanga wrote: I have been a long time trying to print anything on freebsd, as some know. Everything seems to be working new but nothing is printed. Today I reboot the computer and behold a page printed. This implied to me that the printer never receives a New Line or EOF or whatever the printer requires to proceed printing what it has just received. My question is where do I configure an option to print. Sounds like to me your print daemon wasn't running. The reboot started it automagically, and henceforth started the job. As for configuration this depends entirely on the daemon you are using. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What provides libfontconfig.la?
On Friday 29 February 2008 18:12:48 Dr. Jennifer Nussbaum wrote: Hi, I recently upgraded my system from FreeBSD 6.0 to 6.3. But Im having trouble with some ports that are unable to find /usr/X11R6/lib/libfontconfig.la. Where does this come from, so i can (re)install it? I couldnt find this by Googling I did try to force reinstall xorg, but that didnt work. Did you upgrade xorg following the instructions? E.g.: $ less -gi -p20070519 /usr/ports/UPDATING FYI: $ grep libfontconfig.la /usr/ports/x11-fonts/*/pkg-plist /usr/ports/x11-fonts/fontconfig/pkg-plist:lib/libfontconfig.la But I suggest you check if your Xorg upgrade is done properly first, 6.0 used 6.9 xorg. -- Mel Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules and never get to the software part. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What provides libfontconfig.la?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Dr. Jennifer Nussbaum wrote:
Hi, I recently upgraded my system from FreeBSD 6.0 to 6.3. But Im having
trouble
with some ports that are unable to find /usr/X11R6/lib/libfontconfig.la.
Where does
this come from, so i can (re)install it? I couldnt find this by Googling
I did try to force reinstall xorg, but that didnt work.
This is a pretty common question to ask, so for myself, I made up a little
one-liner, to answer that question for me, It does this:
find /usr/ports -type f -name pkg-plist -exec grep -iH $1 {} \;
that $1 is the parameter you feed into this little script, it takes a
minute or two to search each and every pkg-plist file, and returns you the
filenames and contexes it found your search term in. Works ok for me, and
there's some small things you might even to to optimize it for yourself. I
leave the naming of this to you.
Note, those are curly brackets, NOT parentheses, and you mustn't forget
that trailing escaped semicolon.
Thanks!
Jen
-
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Re: What exactly do I have to do to get background fsck?
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:45:08 -0500 Martin Cracauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Thinkpad got instable, and I haven't figured out yet whether it's hardware, FreeBSD's RELENG_6 kernel or X11/DRI. Anyway... I always go through a foreground fsck, no matter whether the thing paniced or had a powercycle, or how long it has been up. I have softupdates activated but I must be missing something. I badly need background fsck. We are talking a 1.3 GHz, a 5400 rpm P-ATA notebook harddrive with a 150 GB filesystem here :-/ It's the default for all partitions with soft-updates enabled. sysinstall defaults to enabling soft-updates on all except the root partition, so if you created one big partition you need to use tunefs to enable soft-updates. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What periodic process strips executable permissions?
On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Shawn Barnhart wrote: I wrote a shell script to email me the output of ntpdc -p and put it in my crontab. It works for a week, and at some point over the weekend my script loses its executable permissions for me (user) but not for group or other. Is there a FreeBSD periodic job that runs periodically and removes executable permissions? I'm pretty sure I didn't make it SUID. It was rwxr-xr-x and there are other scripts in the same directory rwxr--r-- that don't lose their permissions. There's nothing which comes with FreeBSD which would make such a change in permissions. Check whether your other cron jobs or anything customized with the periodic scripts are doing stuff you don't expect. :-) -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is the meaning of optimization changed from TIME to SPACE
In response to ivan dimitrov [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK, but maybe this is not my case. I am using about 10% ... /dev/md0 3.6M318K3.0M 9%/storage/pub/www/ram But dmesg reports continuously: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from SPACE to TIME about 10 times per sec. so, how can i stop this optimization rock-and-roll? You didn't mention that it was flipping back and forth before. I expect that some program is creating files, then deleting them shortly after, resulting in the partition filling up, switching to space opt, then it's not full so it switches back to time opt. However, unless you look at the partition at exactly the right moment, you don't see those files. For example, was the optimization at space at the moment you took that df? You've got a 3.6M partition. I could fill that up accidentally in less than a second. I stand by my original advice to add space. Bump it up to 16M or 32M and see if the problem goes away. Alternately, if you're _really_ worried about what's taking up an unexpected 3.0M of space, you could enable audit and track what programs are creating files there. Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In response to Brian : ivan dimitrov wrote: After upgrading from freebsd-5.5-R to 6.3-R, I get the following message in dmesg: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE I use a ram disk via the md driver. Here is the line from my fstab file: md /storage/pub/www/rammfs rw,-s4m 2 0 Does this mean that there is some sort of error? ...and is there anything that can be done, so that I don't get this message in dmesg? Any help will be greatly appreciated :) UFS normally optimizes file placement for performance. Unfortunately, in order to do this it has to write files in such a way that it sometimes wastes some space. When the partition gets close to full, FreeBSD automatically switches to space optimization which doesn't waste any space, but doesn't perform as well. The short answer is, This is happening because your partition is too close to full. It's not an error, but you should clean up some files or add space. It also has nothing to do with the difference between 5.5 and 6.3. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is the meaning of optimization changed from TIME to SPACE
OK, but maybe this is not my case. I am using about 10% ... /dev/md0 3.6M318K3.0M 9%/storage/pub/www/ram But dmesg reports continuously: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from SPACE to TIME about 10 times per sec. so, how can i stop this optimization rock-and-roll? Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In response to Brian : ivan dimitrov wrote: After upgrading from freebsd-5.5-R to 6.3-R, I get the following message in dmesg: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE I use a ram disk via the md driver. Here is the line from my fstab file: md /storage/pub/www/rammfs rw,-s4m 2 0 Does this mean that there is some sort of error? ...and is there anything that can be done, so that I don't get this message in dmesg? Any help will be greatly appreciated :) UFS normally optimizes file placement for performance. Unfortunately, in order to do this it has to write files in such a way that it sometimes wastes some space. When the partition gets close to full, FreeBSD automatically switches to space optimization which doesn't waste any space, but doesn't perform as well. The short answer is, This is happening because your partition is too close to full. It's not an error, but you should clean up some files or add space. It also has nothing to do with the difference between 5.5 and 6.3. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is the meaning of optimization changed from TIME to SPACE
/storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE This is not an error. It probably means the ramdisk changed it's allocation policy from preserving time to conserving space. Something what would happen if the data on it gets relatively (against available mem) big. I guess. Regards, Wouter ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is the meaning of optimization changed from TIME to SPACE
ivan dimitrov wrote: After upgrading from freebsd-5.5-R to 6.3-R, I get the following message in dmesg: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE I use a ram disk via the md driver. Here is the line from my fstab file: md /storage/pub/www/rammfs rw,-s4m 2 0 Does this mean that there is some sort of error? ...and is there anything that can be done, so that I don't get this message in dmesg? Any help will be greatly appreciated :) - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] When I have seen this error in the past, the partition in question is near or at capacity. Brian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is the meaning of optimization changed from TIME to SPACE
In response to Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ivan dimitrov wrote: After upgrading from freebsd-5.5-R to 6.3-R, I get the following message in dmesg: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE I use a ram disk via the md driver. Here is the line from my fstab file: md /storage/pub/www/rammfs rw,-s4m 2 0 Does this mean that there is some sort of error? ...and is there anything that can be done, so that I don't get this message in dmesg? Any help will be greatly appreciated :) UFS normally optimizes file placement for performance. Unfortunately, in order to do this it has to write files in such a way that it sometimes wastes some space. When the partition gets close to full, FreeBSD automatically switches to space optimization which doesn't waste any space, but doesn't perform as well. The short answer is, This is happening because your partition is too close to full. It's not an error, but you should clean up some files or add space. It also has nothing to do with the difference between 5.5 and 6.3. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what is the meaning of optimization changed from TIME to SPACE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:21:18 -0500 Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] ivan dimitrov wrote: After upgrading from freebsd-5.5-R to 6.3-R, I get the following message in dmesg: /storage/pub/www/ram: optimization changed from TIME to SPACE [...] UFS normally optimizes file placement for performance. Unfortunately, in order to do this it has to write files in such a way that it sometimes wastes some space. When the partition gets close to full, FreeBSD automatically switches to space optimization which doesn't waste any space, but doesn't perform as well. The short answer is, This is happening because your partition is too close to full. It's not an error, but you should clean up some files or add space. It also has nothing to do with the difference between 5.5 and 6.3. It seems that man pages (such as newfs(8) and tunefs(8)) don't have a lot of details about this matter. OP can also read this very informative post regarding disk fragmentation and time/space optimisation: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2007-April/034711.html Regards. - -- Nikola Lečić = Никола Лечић fingerprint : FEF3 66AF C90E EDC3 D878 7CDC 956D F4AB A377 1C9B -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBR7s+0fzDP9K2CKGYAQP7FQQAyrGPKIlbUCNPlasIpQJNAiJXYG7soOlG aj7ZpeL+Cnq/5EKT50TF9kc7tXvAOv9IrNsu6xg8QBe6gQVJJ/b56cKcZ48eC77y Pd+RXi/d1lweNZ9PSPqNpcsLvTrl/xnx4KOW7/E1jwFvufD01mgAsYDdVwa7KGrz Ky3Lv5ZlOLA= =5Thf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jonathan McKeown Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:19 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin? On Thursday 14 February 2008 00:14, Erik Osterholm wrote: IMHO, for an individual to state that Flash is not a relevant issue simply because they choose not to employ it, is similar to patient claiming that cancer research is a waste of time simply because they are not afflicted with the condition. Bad analogies are like a leaky screwdriver. All throughout this thread, there have been people mixing up issues. It's true that Flash is used on many, many websites, but one of the earliest complaints I saw regarded Flash-only sites--sites which require Flash in order to navigate. These sites seem fairly rare. It is manipulative and misleading to argue that because so many sites /make use of Flash/, then /Flash has become an integral part of the web/. I browse with Flash disabled all of the time, only enabling it specifically when I need it to use the web site. It certainly happens--but it's not a constant thing. I'm aware that Flash content exists on the pages I view, but most of the time it's supplemental, and the page degrades quite nicely without it. This is the best summary of the issues I've seen in this thread. One last time, because we're going round in circles: I don't have a problem with people putting in the effort to get Flash working: I'd be even happier if Adobe would do it themselves; but there's not much that Flash is essential for, and to claim that ``half the entire Web'' is unusable without Flash, seems somewhat overstated. There are many sites which degrade, more or less gracefully, in the absence of Flash, but, like Erik, I don't come across many that are completely unusable. I agree. My experience is that most of the advertising sites use Flash. My guess is with the sourceforge thing that what is requiring it is not Sourceforge itself, but rather some 3rd party advertising site that their page is liked to. I see this quite a lot on cnn.com and so on. Not being able to see those sites is no loss, in my opinion. I don't, however, put any credibility into the conspiracy theories that Flash has code to disable it on BSD. MacOS X runs flash just fine and MacOS X is just as BSD as FreeBSD is. The thing is that you can easily run Remote Desktop on your FreeBSD system and remote-term into a headless Windows XP system you have kicked under your desk, so I don't see that even if Flash was Windows-Only it would be a great problem. Or, you can SSH into a convenient MacOS X system and run Firefox as a client on the MacOS X system and display it's output on your FreeBSD desktop. So please explain to me how exactly FreeBSD not being able to run Flash is a huge problem? I still haven't seen any comeback on the accessibility issue: is it really the case that banks in the USA (for example) have websites that are not accessible to a section of the population, and that this isn't covered by the ADA? (I'm not trying to score points here: I'm genuinely interested). There is a court case right now that's wending it's way though the US courts that addresses this. If you google around for it you can come up with it. As I recall some blind person sued a public website because of this. My guess however is that it won't pan out. In the US the law allows for alternative access for disabled. For example, if you build a building with a big impressive staircase leading up to the front entrance for architectural asthetic reasons, you don't have to make it wheelchair accessible if you have a ramp to a door around the side that leads to the same interior entrance. The fact is in building construction, most of what disabled people want (lack of stairs, wide doors, etc.) actually reduce your liability with normal people from tripping and such, which is why with new construction it's usually stupid to not design it ADA-compliant, aside from the building code requirements which require it anyway. With websites, if an organization's only portal to the public is the web, I think they probably are going to have to make their site readable by blind people. Which means flash isn't going to be compatible. But an organization could sidestep this by publishing an 800 number going to some call center in India, and most banks have pretty extensive telephone banking whereby you call the bank's 800 number and use a touch-tone phone to key in your account number and such to do your banking. As a matter of fact I routinely use the 800 number voice response unit of my bank to check bank balances rather than logging into the website - it's faster. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Jonathan McKeown writes:
Your comment about third world countries is one of the most
narrow-minded, ignorant and arrogant statements I've heard in
many years of listening to petty bigots - quite apart from the
fact that you're extending what I stated was a personal opinion
to an entire country and continent based on your personal
prejudice.
It's been my experience some of the worst offenders in the
overuse of multimedia division are, in fact, in/from third world
countries. Any goober can buy (or pirate) the necessary software,
and too many that do mistake {F,f}lashy and interactive for good.
Robert Huff
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Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Let me be the one to point out the (next) controversial thing: here's a perfect example why using linux binaries for stuff like this is a dead end. And don't even start about the PC-BSD folks who want to make flash9 work via WINE. We need a native flash or a replacement for the animation side, and where flash is merely used as a video container, we have not option but to use youitube-dl, miro, and the like. But there too, some native solution is needed, otherwise it will continue to work like crap if at all. Personally, I tried both gnash and swfdec. It was several months ago. They worked just fine on some sites, silently didn't work on other sites. But the problem was that sometimes I saw another behaviour: after opening a webpage I couldn't interact with the computer at all. Mouse was moving on the screen, but nothing could be done either by mouse or keyboard. Actually, the only button working on the computer was power off on the front panel of the computer, next to reset... So, I felt browsing the internet just like a miner game: if you catch the wrong site, you need to reboot. I can't afford that, so I removed them and installed back the linux flash player. I'm not sure what exactly caused the problem - flash itself, or something between flash and KDE; I would be able to live with that if native flash didn't hang the computer, if it just didn't work silently. Have you tried native solutions recently? Andriy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Hah! Good luck... I never got it work either, There are wrappers all other barriers to stop you. And even then it may only work intermittently. Correct me if I'm wrong guys I hear you. I have used both Firefox and Opera and have never gotten flash to work as easily and consistently as it does under Windows. When the added burden of having to use wrappers, etc, it is just not worth the hassle. I have seen references to system linking files to make flash work; however, I have better things to do than invest huge amounts of time attempting to get something to work when it is already technologically possible to do so without all that individual intervention. It does seem rather ironic that we claim that FreeBSD is a superior OS to Microsoft's Windows; however, we are unable to get even a common web add-on like flash to work reliably, consistently. Finger pointing does not alleviate the situation. About a month ago I installed it from ports along with firefox, and it was nothing more than described in the handbook. The only thing - I used nspluginwrapper instead of linuxpluginwrapper. Andriy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathan McKeown wrote: On Tuesday 12 February 2008 21:50, Chuck Robey wrote: Jonathan McKeown wrote: [snip] There are a few sites which don't work without Flash. Having checked on a number of occasions, I've found (and I stress this is a personal opinion) that heavy use of Flash is a fairly reliable marker of a site I wouldn't be interested in whatever publishing techniques were used. It's rather like the old saying in the British advertising industry: only sing in an ad if you have nothing to say. How does Flash fit in with accessibility guidelines? In many countries, a commercial site which doesn't degrade gracefully when viewed with (eg) Lynx may fall foul of legislation protecting people with disabilities such as visual impairment. You know, there are some folks out there who are still using their old M32 TTY's, and they can't understand why any folks would need mouses. Those of us who have successfully made the move to the 21st century can tell them, but honestly, most of us are very tired of hearing the same hoary old excuses why things aren't necessary. The majority of folks doing browsing today aren't impressed that maybe some 3rd world country is unhappy with flash sites, they just want their flash sites to work, and ours don't. Why don't they? Because everytime someone comes up with a workable plan, all the real cave-men out there trot out there war-stories, and bore us all to death with their memoirs, and endlessly recursive arguments. Everytime they get proven wrong on one item, they just move the clock back a few months, grab the previous self-justification, and start the argument all back up again. You can't out-last them. I don't think there's any need for gratuitous rudeness. I did stress that this is a personal opinion. Just to reiterate: I **personally** have not found any site that I /need/ to visit which /requires/ Flash to operate, and I suspect that may well be because, under legislation such as the Americans with Disabilities Act and similar laws in other countries, this would amount to discrimination and is officially frowned upon. I still maintain that your claim that ``half the entire Web'' requires Flash is hugely overstated. Well, anyone being on the Web 5 whole minutes in a browser that can't see flash sites is perfectly well aware if I'm telling the truth or not, I'm quite willing to let folks judge the truth of that one by themselves, they don't need me or you to give them their reality. Your comment about third world countries is one of the most narrow-minded, ignorant and arrogant statements I've heard in many years of listening to petty bigots - quite apart from the fact that you're extending what I stated was a personal opinion to an entire country and continent based on your personal prejudice. (Not that it's important, by the way, but I wasn't born here: I chose to move to Africa from Europe, and I didn't like Flash much before I got here. I still don't, and I have better - though more expensive - bandwidth available to me here than I would in many rural parts of the US). And finally: ``The majority of folks doing browsing today aren't impressed that maybe some 3rd world country is unhappy with flash sites, they just want their flash sites to work''. Stop press: since 90% of the world is using Microsoft operating systems and just want their .exes to work, the FreeBSD project is closing down - it's all been a huge mistake and we're just cavemen standing in the way of progress. FreeBSD has nearly every feature that any M$ abortion has, and in nearly every base, our implementations are better than theirs are, most especially in terms of reliability, but in almost every other case. I was saying that a Huge proportion of the web sites out there make use of flash, it's the next thing to ubiquitous, and the users here, by a large fraction, want to be able to view the sites, not listen to reasons why we should wait until the rest of the web improves to your standards. Yes, things aren't perfect, but users don'[t care, they want to see it anyhow. Anybody who believes your shot at me, making it seem like I like M$, I guess that's the big lie sort of thing, I won't defend it, it's too ridiculous. I don't run any M$ sw here, and never will, but I do like to view the web, not sit and complain. We are all very well aware that M$ has been trying to hijack the HTML protocol ever since it was first put out there, and trying to ignore things isn't the way to win, it's to be better than they are, and that's something which FreeBSD has always been spectacular at. The right way has always been to make your tool work even better than the folks who are trying to hijack, and NOT to fight their incredibly powerful marketing department. Maybe in 6-12 months, the Gnash project will make all this blow over, but until then, it's still quite true.
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Interestingly enough, I just did a quick perusal of the URLs I frequent, and virtually all of them, in one form or another, asked for 'Flash'. Even 'sourceforge.net' greeted me with this friendly message: You need to install the Macromedia Flash Player plug-in to view all content on this page. Do you want to download this plug-in now? IMHO, for an individual to state that Flash is not a relevant issue simply because they choose not to employ it, is similar to patient claiming that cancer research is a waste of time simply because they are not afflicted with the condition. -- Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] One of the pleasures of reading old letters is the knowledge that they need no answer. George Gordon, Lord Byron signature.asc Description: PGP signature
RE: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:34:21 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin? Interestingly enough, I just did a quick perusal of the URLs I frequent, and virtually all of them, in one form or another, asked for 'Flash'. Even 'sourceforge.net' greeted me with this friendly message: You need to install the Macromedia Flash Player plug-in to view all content on this page. Do you want to download this plug-in now? IMHO, for an individual to state that Flash is not a relevant issue simply because they choose not to employ it, is similar to patient claiming that cancer research is a waste of time simply because they are not afflicted with the condition. -- Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] One of the pleasures of reading old letters is the knowledge that they need no answer. George Gordon, Lord Byron I consider it rather funny that a site for the promotion of OSS is using a product that is distinctly the opposite of that! :) _ It's simple! Sell your car for just $30 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641_t=762955845_r=tig_OCT07_m=EXT___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 10:25:05AM -0800, Andriy Babiy wrote: Hah! Good luck... I never got it work either, There are wrappers all other barriers to stop you. And even then it may only work intermittently. Correct me if I'm wrong guys I hear you. I have used both Firefox and Opera and have never gotten flash to work as easily and consistently as it does under Windows. When the added burden of having to use wrappers, etc, it is just not worth the hassle. I have seen references to system linking files to make flash work; however, I have better things to do than invest huge amounts of time attempting to get something to work when it is already technologically possible to do so without all that individual intervention. It does seem rather ironic that we claim that FreeBSD is a superior OS to Microsoft's Windows; however, we are unable to get even a common web add-on like flash to work reliably, consistently. Finger pointing does not alleviate the situation. Finger pointing is somewhat relevant. It is not a specifically technical problem, but one of politics - the unwillingness of the flash owners to release information or allow it to be built for FreeBSD. People can do some examination and create a working alternative, but it will always be based on a guess and not be able to be up-to-date without the real specs from the owner. jerry Andriy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 04:34:21PM -0500, Gerard wrote: Interestingly enough, I just did a quick perusal of the URLs I frequent, and virtually all of them, in one form or another, asked for 'Flash'. Even 'sourceforge.net' greeted me with this friendly message: You need to install the Macromedia Flash Player plug-in to view all content on this page. Do you want to download this plug-in now? IMHO, for an individual to state that Flash is not a relevant issue simply because they choose not to employ it, is similar to patient claiming that cancer research is a waste of time simply because they are not afflicted with the condition. Bad analogies are like a leaky screwdriver. All throughout this thread, there have been people mixing up issues. It's true that Flash is used on many, many websites, but one of the earliest complaints I saw regarded Flash-only sites--sites which require Flash in order to navigate. These sites seem fairly rare. It is manipulative and misleading to argue that because so many sites /make use of Flash/, then /Flash has become an integral part of the web/. I browse with Flash disabled all of the time, only enabling it specifically when I need it to use the web site. It certainly happens--but it's not a constant thing. I'm aware that Flash content exists on the pages I view, but most of the time it's supplemental, and the page degrades quite nicely without it. All of this is largely irrelevant, however. If you want Flash on FreeBSD, you have a few options: - Petition Adobe to release an official version and/or reduce the phantom restrictions[1] on the binaries so that they can run under emulation. - Contribute to the Gnash project. - Modify the appropriate files under /usr/ports and install it, as others have pointed out is possible. If you want to use FreeBSD but you don't care about Flash, you have two options: - Complain to companies when their web site uses Flash poorly. - Don't go to those websites. It doesn't do any good to go around complaining on this list, as the people on this list aren't really in any position to do anything[2]. Erik [1] Others have pointed out that this restriction doesn't seem to actually exist anymore. [2] Except remove the restriction from the ports tree, assuming the license is acceptable, and /possibly/ make it easier to install, since so many users seem to have trouble with it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
I said: Maybe Qt's ActiveQt (wrapper for windows' activex) might be of some value to implement active x support to some extend and use the windows targetted controls rather than NSplugin. I reckon it possible but it probably won't be very easy, all the real heavy lifting would have to be done by the developer in question. I'm not volunteering though! ;-) Come to think of it, I was harsh about PC-BSD intenting to use wine, but that just may be (at least partly) the logical conclusion of the above. Shame on me there. Dan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
On Wednesday 13 February 2008 20:17:03 you wrote: Let me be the one to point out the (next) controversial thing: here's a perfect example why using linux binaries for stuff like this is a dead end. And don't even start about the PC-BSD folks who want to make flash9 work via WINE. We need a native flash or a replacement for the animation side, and where flash is merely used as a video container, we have not option but to use youitube-dl, miro, and the like. But there too, some native solution is needed, otherwise it will continue to work like crap if at all. Personally, I tried both gnash and swfdec. It was several months ago. They worked just fine on some sites, silently didn't work on other sites. But the problem was that sometimes I saw another behaviour: after opening a webpage I couldn't interact with the computer at all. Mouse was moving on the screen, but nothing could be done either by mouse or keyboard. Actually, the only button working on the computer was power off on the front panel of the computer, next to reset... So, I felt I think this is problems with the various XEmbed implementations (IIRC its API itself has been a moving target too). browsing the internet just like a miner game: if you catch the wrong site, you need to reboot. I can't afford that, so I removed them and installed back the linux flash player. I'm not sure what exactly caused the problem - flash itself, or something between flash and KDE; On konqueror, (kde3), I can confirm that the newer style xembed as used in the linux flash 9 has not yet been (completely?) put into its nsplugin code. For me, flash7 works, flash9 almost never. It likely depends on which (missing) xembed thingies are used. Then there's the general bugginess of the flash9 plugin. Whenever konqi seems to choke up my box, I killall -9 nspluginviewer. Add to that, last time I looked at it, it looked that (konqueror) the way nspluginviewer invokes the actual npviewer.bin out-of-process and its killing (if needed) seems errant. There's some RedHat patches that can make this a little better. I would be able to live with that if native flash didn't hang the computer, if it just didn't work silently. Have you tried native solutions recently? See above. I sometimes use linux-firefox if I really need to. And for youtube etc I made an add-on to kmplayer (which port I maintain) called tubestuff, that can bypass kmplayer's normal url handling and instead download and play the video via dcop. It's not extremely robust but works fairly well for me (I don't mind the download time which is typically half of the video playtime). It's not in ports yet, sorry (and it needs to be updated to use the new youtube-dl, and I noticed today that my liveleak-dl script doesn't seem to work anymore). Maybe Qt's ActiveQt (wrapper for windows' activex) might be of some value to implement active x support to some extend and use the windows targetted controls rather than NSplugin. I reckon it possible but it probably won't be very easy, all the real heavy lifting would have to be done by the developer in question. I'm not volunteering though! ;-) What does OSX use? ActiveX, npapi, or something entirely different. Does anyone know? Andriy Dan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Erik Osterholm writes: - Petition Adobe to release an official version and/or reduce the phantom restrictions[1] on the binaries so that they can run under emulation. I don't have the link at hand, but Adobe is supposedly working woth open source folks so the next generation of Flash will have an open interface specification. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
On Thursday 14 February 2008 00:14, Erik Osterholm wrote: IMHO, for an individual to state that Flash is not a relevant issue simply because they choose not to employ it, is similar to patient claiming that cancer research is a waste of time simply because they are not afflicted with the condition. Bad analogies are like a leaky screwdriver. All throughout this thread, there have been people mixing up issues. It's true that Flash is used on many, many websites, but one of the earliest complaints I saw regarded Flash-only sites--sites which require Flash in order to navigate. These sites seem fairly rare. It is manipulative and misleading to argue that because so many sites /make use of Flash/, then /Flash has become an integral part of the web/. I browse with Flash disabled all of the time, only enabling it specifically when I need it to use the web site. It certainly happens--but it's not a constant thing. I'm aware that Flash content exists on the pages I view, but most of the time it's supplemental, and the page degrades quite nicely without it. This is the best summary of the issues I've seen in this thread. One last time, because we're going round in circles: I don't have a problem with people putting in the effort to get Flash working: I'd be even happier if Adobe would do it themselves; but there's not much that Flash is essential for, and to claim that ``half the entire Web'' is unusable without Flash, seems somewhat overstated. There are many sites which degrade, more or less gracefully, in the absence of Flash, but, like Erik, I don't come across many that are completely unusable. In fact, browsing with Konqueror, I have more problem with Java, faulty Javascript and AJAX than with Flash. I still haven't seen any comeback on the accessibility issue: is it really the case that banks in the USA (for example) have websites that are not accessible to a section of the population, and that this isn't covered by the ADA? (I'm not trying to score points here: I'm genuinely interested). Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:39:41 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin? just send them an e-mail telling them that you are so sorry about the quality of their website that you have to buy somewhere else. Do not send this to the webmaster, send it to the sales department. Those people fight for the clients and give a shit on technology. exactly. they simply don't know the problem exist. i think it could be done more politely by asking them of sending their product data as text based e-mail (+possible images), because their webpage is unusable. they will have to respond, and more people doing this will give them a lot of work :) and will motivate them to think This of course doesn't help them if their web designer can't fix the design issue, which is why it would be an issue in the first place. Or the designer will say its ok- show statistics which are becoming rapidly outdated and say its only a minority. Reality can be very sad. _ What are you waiting for? Join Lavalife FREE http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30288_t=764581033_r=email_taglines_Join_free_OCT07_m=EXT___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
is unusable. they will have to respond, and more people doing this will give them a lot of work :) and will motivate them to think it does not amtter how you do it as long as you address the sales department. exactly what i say - ask sales department to send product data by e-mail, because webpage can't be read. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Heiko Wundram (Beenic) skrev: Am Montag, 11. Februar 2008 15:32:26 schrieb Erich Dollansky: Read this (in the license agreement): ... For the avoidance of doubt, no embedded or device versions of the above operating systems, or any other operating systems, are included as Authorized Operating Systems. ... 2.1You may install and use the Software on a single desktop or laptop computer that runs an Authorized Operating System. A license for the Software may not be shared, installed or used concurrently on different computers. ...where Authorized Operating Systems is only Windows, Linux, Solaris and Mac OS as defined before the initial sentence, and as such, there's no clause that allows you to use the software on BSDs, and finally, that makes it forbidden to use on BSDs. This is another reason why Flash is bad, bad, bad. Am I repeating myself? Just because something is written in a license does not make it so. I do not belive that it holds for a legal challenge. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
This of course doesn't help them if their web designer can't fix the design issue, which is why it would be an issue in the first place. Or the designer will say its ok- show statistics which are becoming rapidly outdated and say its only a minority. they could simply pay other web designer, good are often more cheap not expensive ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
On Wednesday 13 February 2008 00:27:53 Da Rock wrote: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:50:40 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathan McKeown wrote: On Monday 11 February 2008 22:26, Chuck Robey wrote: All you folks who are focussing on YouTube are (purposefully? I don't know) the fact that with just about half of the entire Web using flash in one way or antoehr, not using Flash is a huge problem, as anyone who browses without a flashplayer knows. Just to provide a counterpoint to this sweeping generalisation, I browse without a Flash player and it's never caused me any problem at all. There are a few sites which don't work without Flash. Having checked on a number of occasions, I've found (and I stress this is a personal opinion) that heavy use of Flash is a fairly reliable marker of a site I wouldn't be interested in whatever publishing techniques were used. It's rather like the old saying in the British advertising industry: only sing in an ad if you have nothing to say. How does Flash fit in with accessibility guidelines? In many countries, a commercial site which doesn't degrade gracefully when viewed with (eg) Lynx may fall foul of legislation protecting people with disabilities such as visual impairment. You know, there are some folks out there who are still using their old M32 TTY's, and they can't understand why any folks would need mouses. Those of us who have successfully made the move to the 21st century can tell them, but honestly, most of us are very tired of hearing the same hoary old excuses why things aren't necessary. The majority of folks doing browsing today aren't impressed that maybe some 3rd world country is unhappy with flash sites, they just want their flash sites to work, and ours don't. Why don't they? Because everytime someone comes up with a workable plan, all the real cave-men out there trot out there war-stories, and bore us all to death with their memoirs, and endlessly recursive arguments. Everytime they get proven wrong on one item, they just move the clock back a few months, grab the previous self-justification, and start the argument all back up again. You can't out-last them. I personally tried to fix things, got soundly beaten to death over it (and I WILL NOT try that one again, under pain of death, sorry!). MY flash works here and that's all I will worry about. I can't predict when things will finally improve, maybe when enough folks realize they don't have to put up with this. In short, I think ``half of the entire Web using Flash'' may be a bit of an overstatement even if you count Flash ad banners (which frankly I can do without), and the small number of Flash-only sites I encounter hasn't caused me temporary inconvenience, never mind ``a huge problem''. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHsfiQz62J6PPcoOkRAu6/AKCArtXTPwLGKD0xN+r6MG8fk+wEUwCglafp Al9ztYns1ZHDV7IQ8foSU7o= =1fY6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was a right pretty speech there, and I agree with the sentiments of moving forward with technology. However, I disagree that this is merely a case backward compatibility. Are you aware that the w3 consortium has web accessibility drafting committee? Consider also the facts that I have brought forward that Adobe has singled out OS's that are not allowed to run Flash Player. Consider also the fact that most designers simply use flash because they can't design properly and use other more accessible methods to achieve the same thing. I agree that a fix needs to be found, but this is not a cave man mentality, and we're not bringing up old war stories. The fact that this has not been all that successful given the larger number of sites now designed with flash player 9 which has been the number one problem here. If you have a fix I am sure we would all welcome the knowledge and use it- I certainly would. I merely point out (hopefully reaching some web designers and other flash fans) that flash is not the only way to go, and is certainly not preferable. Let me be the one to point out the (next) controversial thing: here's a perfect example why using linux binaries for stuff like this is a dead end
RE: what happened to linuxflashplugin?
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:50:40 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what happened to linuxflashplugin? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathan McKeown wrote: On Monday 11 February 2008 22:26, Chuck Robey wrote: All you folks who are focussing on YouTube are (purposefully? I don't know) the fact that with just about half of the entire Web using flash in one way or antoehr, not using Flash is a huge problem, as anyone who browses without a flashplayer knows. Just to provide a counterpoint to this sweeping generalisation, I browse without a Flash player and it's never caused me any problem at all. There are a few sites which don't work without Flash. Having checked on a number of occasions, I've found (and I stress this is a personal opinion) that heavy use of Flash is a fairly reliable marker of a site I wouldn't be interested in whatever publishing techniques were used. It's rather like the old saying in the British advertising industry: only sing in an ad if you have nothing to say. How does Flash fit in with accessibility guidelines? In many countries, a commercial site which doesn't degrade gracefully when viewed with (eg) Lynx may fall foul of legislation protecting people with disabilities such as visual impairment. You know, there are some folks out there who are still using their old M32 TTY's, and they can't understand why any folks would need mouses. Those of us who have successfully made the move to the 21st century can tell them, but honestly, most of us are very tired of hearing the same hoary old excuses why things aren't necessary. The majority of folks doing browsing today aren't impressed that maybe some 3rd world country is unhappy with flash sites, they just want their flash sites to work, and ours don't. Why don't they? Because everytime someone comes up with a workable plan, all the real cave-men out there trot out there war-stories, and bore us all to death with their memoirs, and endlessly recursive arguments. Everytime they get proven wrong on one item, they just move the clock back a few months, grab the previous self-justification, and start the argument all back up again. You can't out-last them. I personally tried to fix things, got soundly beaten to death over it (and I WILL NOT try that one again, under pain of death, sorry!). MY flash works here and that's all I will worry about. I can't predict when things will finally improve, maybe when enough folks realize they don't have to put up with this. In short, I think ``half of the entire Web using Flash'' may be a bit of an overstatement even if you count Flash ad banners (which frankly I can do without), and the small number of Flash-only sites I encounter hasn't caused me temporary inconvenience, never mind ``a huge problem''. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHsfiQz62J6PPcoOkRAu6/AKCArtXTPwLGKD0xN+r6MG8fk+wEUwCglafp Al9ztYns1ZHDV7IQ8foSU7o= =1fY6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was a right pretty speech there, and I agree with the sentiments of moving forward with technology. However, I disagree that this is merely a case backward compatibility. Are you aware that the w3 consortium has web accessibility drafting committee? Consider also the facts that I have brought forward that Adobe has singled out OS's that are not allowed to run Flash Player. Consider also the fact that most designers simply use flash because they can't design properly and use other more accessible methods to achieve the same thing. I agree that a fix needs to be found, but this is not a cave man mentality, and we're not bringing up old war stories. The fact that this has not been all that successful given the larger number of sites now designed with flash player 9 which has been the number one problem here. If you have a fix I am sure we would all welcome the knowledge and use it- I certainly would. I merely point out (hopefully reaching some web designers and other flash fans) that flash is not the only way to go, and is certainly not preferable. _ It's simple! Sell your car for just $30 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi
