Re: [Freedos-user] Games - and DOS installation

[Corbin Davenport]

Yeah, I don't think anyone in the FreeDOS project has ever aimed for it to
be a replacement to Windows/Mac/Linux. That's like comparing a wheelbarrow
to an SUV.

FreeDOS is a niche OS for a niche market, but it's a very good one at that.

Corbin 

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Dennis, we've already had this pointless conversation several times
> over. I'm not sure why you keep rehashing it.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:06 PM, dmccunney 
> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> >
> > The number of people who still have actual need to run DOS is a
> vanishingly small fraction of the PC market.
>
> This is a FreeDOS mailing list. The fact that anybody here uses
> Windows is off-topic, irrelevant, and (mostly) accidental.
>
> We don't need constant reminders about how small our marketshare is.
> We frankly don't care because there is nothing you can add to DOS that
> will "fix" it. Some people will never be happy no matter what we do.
> Some people, like you, can't see the forest for the trees.
>
> > MS doesn't care about DOS, and *shouldn't*.
>
> MS doesn't participate in this mailing list, nor do they have anything
> to do with running it. They are not involved. We are not here asking
> them to do anything.
>
> You don't have to tell us (over and over) how insignificant we are.
> It's not productive. We are not a billion-dollar company and never
> will be. Get over it. If that makes you think so much less of us, I
> suggest you find a suitable Windows forum to coddle you.
>
> > The folks they consider their customers stopped running DOS and DOS apps
> decades back.
>
> MS has more than enough money to do whatever they want. Even if there
> were billions in potential DOS revenue, they still wouldn't care. They
> definitely don't need any more money. They're still a business, but
> they are beyond worry. Actually, they make tons more from the "cloud"
> and Office 365 than Windows these days. They have diversified a lot.
> (Heck, they squandered $26 billion on LinkedIn! How does that
> technically "improve" Windows NT at all or gain further customers for
> Windows??)
>
> But MS' potential business strategies are off-topic here.
>
> > There are a variety of reasons why Windows (*and* Linux) *are* better
> than DOS.
>
> Irrelevant to DOS users, especially on this mailing list. You should
> not be trying to convert anyone here to the Windows religion. There
> are plenty of other forums for that.
>
> > The folks who *do* care about DOS are mostly hobbyists who like playing
> with retro tech.
>
> And apparently contrarians who like beating a dead horse.
>
> > Most of what I do on computers these days can't be done under DOS.
>
> Like complaining about how much DOS "sux0rz!!!1". Get with it, FreeDOS
> devs, Dennis needs to whine, and he needs it NOW!
>
> > Ultimately, it comes down to money.  The sort of support you would
> > like is stuff the people who could *do* it expect to be *paid* for.
>
> I've never seen anyone pretend to be willing to work writing DOS
> drivers for money. Those people don't exist. I think you're
> overestimating the potential developers for such tasks.
>
> > It's what they do for a living.  They aren't going to do it free for
> > fun.  There's next to no money in DOS these days, so it won't happen.
>
> I agree that bounties do exist in other OSes, and a lot of development
> is sponsored by corporations. Still, that is a small fraction of all
> work done. That talent base is extremely small and not to be taken for
> granted. We expect miracles, but we're lucky when we can still do the
> basics.
>
> Again, these so-called DOS-savvy developers don't exist. They just
> don't. They aren't willing to work for money because they don't have
> the appropriate skills. I've never heard of anyone, appropriately
> inclined, whine about lack of money. Developers are very few and far
> in between. It's not nearly as common as you think.
>
> > The world changes, and we must change with it.  Sitting still isn't
> normally an option.
>
> Patches welcome. Otherwise, shut up and get out. Sorry (not sorry!) to
> be crass, but it's not conducive to further development to just
> constantly berate people, saying, "Change! You suck! You're old!
> Improve!"
>
> None of us are that naive. We're all well aware of Windows, Linux,
> macOS [sic], and various others. You didn't tell us anything we didn't
> already know. We don't need you to constantly remind us how crappy we
> are. It just doesn't solve anything. It's frankly annoying.
>
>
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and 

Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:47 PM,   wrote:
>
> BTW, I fear that VirtualBox does not have guest additions,

AFAIK, you're correct, it does not support DOS.

The FD wiki suggests to use FTPSRV instead:

http://freedos.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/VirtualBox_-_Chapter_6

> and VMware Tools are also not available for DOS.

As mentioned, several years ago, one dude (Eduardo Casino) around here
wrote his own:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/vmsmount/

This is already listed under the Software List ("UTIL"):

http://www.freedos.org/software/?prog=vmsmount

P.S. I don't think QEMU needs additions, just use "fat:/":

http://wiki.qemu.org/download/qemu-doc.html#disk_005fimages_005ffat_005fimages

(Or, like I previously mentioned, use external tools to insert/extract
from file system image.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mtools

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games - and DOS installation

[Rugxulo]

Dennis, we've already had this pointless conversation several times
over. I'm not sure why you keep rehashing it.


On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:06 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>
> The number of people who still have actual need to run DOS is a vanishingly 
> small fraction of the PC market.

This is a FreeDOS mailing list. The fact that anybody here uses
Windows is off-topic, irrelevant, and (mostly) accidental.

We don't need constant reminders about how small our marketshare is.
We frankly don't care because there is nothing you can add to DOS that
will "fix" it. Some people will never be happy no matter what we do.
Some people, like you, can't see the forest for the trees.

> MS doesn't care about DOS, and *shouldn't*.

MS doesn't participate in this mailing list, nor do they have anything
to do with running it. They are not involved. We are not here asking
them to do anything.

You don't have to tell us (over and over) how insignificant we are.
It's not productive. We are not a billion-dollar company and never
will be. Get over it. If that makes you think so much less of us, I
suggest you find a suitable Windows forum to coddle you.

> The folks they consider their customers stopped running DOS and DOS apps 
> decades back.

MS has more than enough money to do whatever they want. Even if there
were billions in potential DOS revenue, they still wouldn't care. They
definitely don't need any more money. They're still a business, but
they are beyond worry. Actually, they make tons more from the "cloud"
and Office 365 than Windows these days. They have diversified a lot.
(Heck, they squandered $26 billion on LinkedIn! How does that
technically "improve" Windows NT at all or gain further customers for
Windows??)

But MS' potential business strategies are off-topic here.

> There are a variety of reasons why Windows (*and* Linux) *are* better than 
> DOS.

Irrelevant to DOS users, especially on this mailing list. You should
not be trying to convert anyone here to the Windows religion. There
are plenty of other forums for that.

> The folks who *do* care about DOS are mostly hobbyists who like playing with 
> retro tech.

And apparently contrarians who like beating a dead horse.

> Most of what I do on computers these days can't be done under DOS.

Like complaining about how much DOS "sux0rz!!!1". Get with it, FreeDOS
devs, Dennis needs to whine, and he needs it NOW!

> Ultimately, it comes down to money.  The sort of support you would
> like is stuff the people who could *do* it expect to be *paid* for.

I've never seen anyone pretend to be willing to work writing DOS
drivers for money. Those people don't exist. I think you're
overestimating the potential developers for such tasks.

> It's what they do for a living.  They aren't going to do it free for
> fun.  There's next to no money in DOS these days, so it won't happen.

I agree that bounties do exist in other OSes, and a lot of development
is sponsored by corporations. Still, that is a small fraction of all
work done. That talent base is extremely small and not to be taken for
granted. We expect miracles, but we're lucky when we can still do the
basics.

Again, these so-called DOS-savvy developers don't exist. They just
don't. They aren't willing to work for money because they don't have
the appropriate skills. I've never heard of anyone, appropriately
inclined, whine about lack of money. Developers are very few and far
in between. It's not nearly as common as you think.

> The world changes, and we must change with it.  Sitting still isn't normally 
> an option.

Patches welcome. Otherwise, shut up and get out. Sorry (not sorry!) to
be crass, but it's not conducive to further development to just
constantly berate people, saying, "Change! You suck! You're old!
Improve!"

None of us are that naive. We're all well aware of Windows, Linux,
macOS [sic], and various others. You didn't tell us anything we didn't
already know. We don't need you to constantly remind us how crappy we
are. It just doesn't solve anything. It's frankly annoying.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[userbeitrag]

Original message from Corbin Davenport, 2016-06-21 00:38:
> Oh wow, that's some memories. I remember firing up Virtual PC for Mac on my 
> old
> iMac G4 to run some Windows software. The DOS additions were great for running
> DOS games too.

Yes, I also use(d) Virtual PC on the Mac. The Windows versions 2004 and 
2007 are the only ones that are free thou, as VPC 6 and 7 (for the Mac) 
could only be purchased. Only version 2004 includes the guest additions 
for DOS and OS/2. In VPC 2007 and Windows Virtual PC on Windows 7 the 
original DOS Additions may be used anyhow.


BTW, I fear that VirtualBox does not have guest additions, and VMware 
Tools are also not available for DOS.


Cheers,
userbeitrag

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Corbin Davenport]

Oh wow, that's some memories. I remember firing up Virtual PC for Mac on my
old iMac G4 to run some Windows software. The DOS additions were great for
running DOS games too.

Corbin 

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 6:33 PM,  wrote:

> I just want to point out, that the DOS Additions for Virtual PC 2004 SP1
> can be downloaded free of charge:
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-US/download/details.aspx?id=3243
>
> This will let you download
> "
> https://download.microsoft.com/download/2/5/3/253e22d9-b8a4-4219-9596-ee30c83699bf/Virtual
> PC 2004 SP1.zip" which needs to be unzipped. Then unpack "Microsoft
> Virtual PC 2004 MSDN.msi" which includes "product.cab", which again
> needs to be unpacked. Finally, the DOS Additions are in the file
> "DOSAdditions", which is a standard 1.44 MB floppy image.
>
> The .zip also includes a file called "VPC 2004 EULA.rtf", the Virtual PC
> 2004 End Users License Agreement. It also states that Re-distribution is
> allowed. Only, the package must be included as a whole and the EULA must
> be presented to the user.
>
>
> [X] Virtual PC
> [ ] VirtualBox
> [ ] VMware
> [ ] QEMU
>
>
> One checked, three remaining...
>
>
> Cheers,
> userbeitrag
>
>
> --
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> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[userbeitrag]

I just want to point out, that the DOS Additions for Virtual PC 2004 SP1 
can be downloaded free of charge:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-US/download/details.aspx?id=3243

This will let you download 
"https://download.microsoft.com/download/2/5/3/253e22d9-b8a4-4219-9596-ee30c83699bf/Virtual
 
PC 2004 SP1.zip" which needs to be unzipped. Then unpack "Microsoft 
Virtual PC 2004 MSDN.msi" which includes "product.cab", which again 
needs to be unpacked. Finally, the DOS Additions are in the file 
"DOSAdditions", which is a standard 1.44 MB floppy image.

The .zip also includes a file called "VPC 2004 EULA.rtf", the Virtual PC 
2004 End Users License Agreement. It also states that Re-distribution is 
allowed. Only, the package must be included as a whole and the EULA must 
be presented to the user.


[X] Virtual PC
[ ] VirtualBox
[ ] VMware
[ ] QEMU


One checked, three remaining...


Cheers,
userbeitrag

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Bret Johnson]

> I believe CTMOUSE does have support for a wheel and maybe some extra
> buttons, but of course there are no apps in DOS which would use
> them.

CTMOUSE does indeed support a (single) wheel, and there are a few programs that 
can use it.

>> 5. Is there a DOS driver for USB joysticks? I know that analog
>> joysticks on the MIDI port (gameport) will likely work, but do
>> digital protocols work as well?

> The problem is that the analog joystick is "horribly" easy to read
> in DOS game software, so nobody ever used the BIOS interface to
> read it.

Actually, no.  Analog joysticks are relatively simple, but they are far from 
"horribly easy" to read.  In fact there were a lot of broken BIOSes in the past 
that didn't work correctly with joysticks, largely because the CPU speeds kept 
increasing and the BIOS writers didn't adjust for it (reading game port devices 
is very timing-dependent).  There were even hardware manufacturers that made 
after-market game ports that supposedly fixed the problems with the broken 
BIOSes.  There are actually multiple reasons for game writers to not use the 
joystick BIOS, but it being "just as easy" or even "easier" to do it directly 
is not one of them.

> Because of that, a DOS driver for USB joysticks COULD give access to
> the joystick situation in the BIOS interface, but no game would
> care!

A few games do use the joystick BIOS, but you are correct that most of them 
don't.

> In other words, a DOS driver for USB joysticks will have the same
> evil problem as a DOS "driver" for modern sound chips: It will have
> to use protected mode to create the illusion of analog joystick
> hardware, to force old games to actually process the USB joystick
> signals...

That is correct, but it is possible to do even in "real" DOS given the right 
combination of software.  Unfortunately, FreeDOS doesn't include what is 
needed.  What is needed is a way to virtualize low-level I/O ports, which as 
Eric noted must be done via protected mode.  Later versions of Microsoft EMM386 
included an interface that allows I/O virtualization, and so did 386MAX.  None 
of the FreeDOS equivalents to EMM386 support that interface.

My USB joystick driver does leverage the I/O virtualization interface if it 
exists (if EMM386 or 3896MAX are installed), which can allow you to use a USB 
joystick with almost any DOS program (not just games).  My programs are far 
from flawless, but do allow you to use USB devices in DOS in some cases without 
actually needing to resort to a Virtual Machine.  But, Virtual Machines are 
almost always the easier road to take with modern hardware.

Blazeray
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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:04 PM, userbeit...@abwesend.de wrote:
> 
> Why?
> Every emulator or VM I know about will quickly install any operating 
> system from a virtual CD-ROM. So if you just assign the FreeDOS-ISO as 
> the virtual ATAPI-CDROM you will very easily install it to the virtual 
> Hard Disk Drive, which will be either .VHD, .VHDX (Virtual PC and 
> Hyper-V), .VMDK (VMware), .QCOW (QEMU) or .VDI (VirtualBox). Or any 
> other format.
> 
> A prepared installation will not help alot, aside from you not being 
> completely aware, which installation was used (full installation, 
> partial installation, which packages).

Well, yes and no.

Using FDI (the new FreeDOS Installer) to install the v1.2 preview versions 
takes under most 60 seconds in most VMs.

There are odd compatibility issues from VM to VM. The installer compensates for 
most of these by tweaking the installed config files.

But, for some users getting a pre setup VM that booted to a menu of Games and 
other cool freebies.  

> 
> Also, for each emulator or VM you will require different hardware 
> drivers (for the virtual hardware) and integration drivers (for guest 
> integration).
> 
> Therefor I would suggest to better add an installation package for 
> FreeDOS as a guest operating system under various emulators and VMs. A 
> user could then just install FreeDOS and select "guest drivers and 
> tools" as an additional package, which would then ask "a) Virtual PC, b) 
> Hyper-V, c) VMware, d) VirtualBox, e) QEMU" and install+setup the 
> required stuff for you.
> 

V8Power Tools (used by FDI for a lot of its magic) already detects several 
different virtual machine platforms. This was needed to prevent problems with 
several drivers used by FDI and to aid in configuring the installed system on 
specific VMs. It also can detect some other and unknown VMs. But, for the 
installer, that is not useful. 

If there are drivers for a QEMU, VirtualBox or VMWare that can be included with 
FreeDOS without violating and licensing restrictions, it is possible to just 
have them installed normally. Or, throw up a prompt when one of those VMs  are 
detected.

> 
> I write this because this is my experience. Installing an OS on a 
> virtual PC is easy, getting the drivers set up sometimes is hard work, 
> because you have to find those drivers first. Including them as an 
> installation package would be sufficiently easy for uses IMHO. Just my 2¢.
> 
> Cheers,
> userbeitrag

Yes, finding, installing and configuring DOS drivers is not for the faint of 
heart.

Jerome

Sent from my iPhone, ignore bad sentence structures, grammatical errors and 
incorrect spell-corrected words. 

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[userbeitrag]

Why?
Every emulator or VM I know about will quickly install any operating 
system from a virtual CD-ROM. So if you just assign the FreeDOS-ISO as 
the virtual ATAPI-CDROM you will very easily install it to the virtual 
Hard Disk Drive, which will be either .VHD, .VHDX (Virtual PC and 
Hyper-V), .VMDK (VMware), .QCOW (QEMU) or .VDI (VirtualBox). Or any 
other format.

A prepared installation will not help alot, aside from you not being 
completely aware, which installation was used (full installation, 
partial installation, which packages).

Also, for each emulator or VM you will require different hardware 
drivers (for the virtual hardware) and integration drivers (for guest 
integration).

Therefor I would suggest to better add an installation package for 
FreeDOS as a guest operating system under various emulators and VMs. A 
user could then just install FreeDOS and select "guest drivers and 
tools" as an additional package, which would then ask "a) Virtual PC, b) 
Hyper-V, c) VMware, d) VirtualBox, e) QEMU" and install+setup the 
required stuff for you.


I write this because this is my experience. Installing an OS on a 
virtual PC is easy, getting the drivers set up sometimes is hard work, 
because you have to find those drivers first. Including them as an 
installation package would be sufficiently easy for uses IMHO. Just my 2¢.

Cheers,
userbeitrag


Original message from Don Flowers, 2016-06-20 20:45:
> That would be awesome!
>
> It seems that this would be an alternative to vDOS?
> https://www.vdos.info/
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdos/
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Jim Hall  > wrote:
>
>  Jim Hall wrote:
>  >>> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
>  >>> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.
>
>  Tom Ehlert wrote:
>  >> any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
>  >> images?
>
>  Jim Hall wrote:
>  >> Hmm... I don't know why we haven't. I don't know anything about VHD
>  >> though. Is that a standard virtual disk image that any PC
>  >> emulator/virtual machine can read? Can free/open source software
>  >> virtual machines read these (or create them)?
>
>  On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Tom Ehlert   > wrote:
>  >
>  > .VHD is a fairly generic virtual *disk* format, and most virtual
>  > machines providers should be able to read them.
>  >
>  > a tiny bit more specialized are the virtual machine configuration
>  > files, but we should be able to provide multiple formats, for Virtual
>  > Box, DosBox, HyperV, ...
>  >
>  > still no rocket science, and no risk to damage user data.
>
>
>  Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can output a VHD from QEMU. If I
>  can, I'll post a default install of FreeDOS 1.1 to our ibiblio archive
>  and link to it. I'll do the same when 1.2 is out.
>
>  Reference:
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHD_(file_format)
>  "VHD (Virtual Hard Disk) is a file format which represents a virtual
>  hard disk drive (HDD). It may contain what is found on a physical HDD,
>  such as disk partitions and a file system, which in turn can contain
>  files and folders. It is typically used as the hard disk of a virtual
>  machine. The format was created by Connectix for their Virtual PC
>  product, known as Microsoft Virtual PC since Microsoft acquired
>  Connectix in 2003. Since June 2005, Microsoft has made the VHD Image
>  Format Specification available to third parties under the Microsoft
>  Open Specification Promise."


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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Jim Hall]

>> Jim Hall wrote:
>> >>> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
>> >>> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.

>> Tom Ehlert wrote:
>> >> any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
>> >> images?
>>
[..]

> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>> Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can output a VHD from QEMU. If I
>> can, I'll post a default install of FreeDOS 1.1 to our ibiblio archive
>> and link to it. I'll do the same when 1.2 is out.
>>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Don Flowers  wrote:
>
> That would be awesome!
>

Thanks.

I'll add that if anyone out there has already generated a VHD for a
generic/defaults/vanilla FreeDOS 1.1 install, I'd be happy to use that
instead. You can contact me off-list.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[userbeitrag]

Original message from Eric Auer, 2016-06-20 19:47:
> Hi Herr or Frau Beitrag!
>
>> I wonder if it was possible to include the guest integration drivers for
>> Virtual PC, VirtualBox, QEMU (are there any?), Hyper-V in a provided VHD
> Eduardo Casino has written VMSMOUNT in 2011 :-) It lets you
> mount VMWare shared directories as a FreeDOS drive letter :-)

This would be very useful to include.

> I guess it would also be possible to do something fancy for
> mouse support. DOS does not have a built-in clipboard, so a
> guest driver for that would have to do something else, such
> as Linux style "mark to put into clipboard, use middle mouse
> button to paste clipboard contents into keyboard buffer" but
> I am not aware of such guest drivers for DOS yet. Same for
> the possibility of guest graphics drivers, where DOS has to
> rely on the BIOS and hardware VGA / VESA emulation instead.

I was not only thinking about VGA/VESA drivers, but mostly about the 
correct mouse setup and maybe some addition drivers like the correct 
(SCSI or ATAPI) CD-ROM drivers and sound drivers.

If I remember correctly, Virtual PC emulates a standard ATAPI CD-ROM 
drive. The sound emulation is a SoundBlaster 16. So it would be wise to 
include drivers for the Sound Blaster.

But again: what about the license of those DOS drivers?

> Are there any Virtual PC, Virtual Box or QEMU specific guest
> drivers for FreeDOS?

I just assume that the DOS drivers will also work on FreeDOS. (They were 
developed for IBM DOS/PC DOS and MS-DOS.)
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/824967

>> I don't think DOSBox requires a virtual hard disk image at all.
> Yes and no. You can put your DOS games in a directory to let
> DOSBox open them, but if you want to use FreeDOS kernel and
> drivers, you probably have to use a disk image? The "normal"
> style of DOSBox is that the whole DOS is a built-in illusion.
>
> If you do not need fancy drivers and want to work mainly with
> the DOSBox built-in stuff, a similar strategy as for DOSEMU
> is probably easier: Ship FreeDOS as a directory ready to be
> dropped in a shared directory C: "drive" for DOSBox?

This is the first time I hear about running actual DOS (the kernel) or 
its tools inside DOSBox. Most of this stuff isn't required and why would 
someone try to start a DOS kernel if DOS is already running?


Cheers,
userbeitrag



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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Don Flowers]

That would be awesome!

It seems that this would be an alternative to vDOS?
https://www.vdos.info/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdos/


On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Jim Hall wrote:
> >>> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
> >>> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.
>
> Tom Ehlert wrote:
> >> any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
> >> images?
>
> Jim Hall wrote:
> >> Hmm... I don't know why we haven't. I don't know anything about VHD
> >> though. Is that a standard virtual disk image that any PC
> >> emulator/virtual machine can read? Can free/open source software
> >> virtual machines read these (or create them)?
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Tom Ehlert  wrote:
> >
> > .VHD is a fairly generic virtual *disk* format, and most virtual
> > machines providers should be able to read them.
> >
> > a tiny bit more specialized are the virtual machine configuration
> > files, but we should be able to provide multiple formats, for Virtual
> > Box, DosBox, HyperV, ...
> >
> > still no rocket science, and no risk to damage user data.
>
>
> Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can output a VHD from QEMU. If I
> can, I'll post a default install of FreeDOS 1.1 to our ibiblio archive
> and link to it. I'll do the same when 1.2 is out.
>
> Reference:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHD_(file_format)
> "VHD (Virtual Hard Disk) is a file format which represents a virtual
> hard disk drive (HDD). It may contain what is found on a physical HDD,
> such as disk partitions and a file system, which in turn can contain
> files and folders. It is typically used as the hard disk of a virtual
> machine. The format was created by Connectix for their Virtual PC
> product, known as Microsoft Virtual PC since Microsoft acquired
> Connectix in 2003. Since June 2005, Microsoft has made the VHD Image
> Format Specification available to third parties under the Microsoft
> Open Specification Promise."
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Jim Hall]

Jim Hall wrote:
>>> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
>>> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.

Tom Ehlert wrote:
>> any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
>> images?

Jim Hall wrote:
>> Hmm... I don't know why we haven't. I don't know anything about VHD
>> though. Is that a standard virtual disk image that any PC
>> emulator/virtual machine can read? Can free/open source software
>> virtual machines read these (or create them)?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Tom Ehlert  wrote:
>
> .VHD is a fairly generic virtual *disk* format, and most virtual
> machines providers should be able to read them.
>
> a tiny bit more specialized are the virtual machine configuration
> files, but we should be able to provide multiple formats, for Virtual
> Box, DosBox, HyperV, ...
>
> still no rocket science, and no risk to damage user data.


Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can output a VHD from QEMU. If I
can, I'll post a default install of FreeDOS 1.1 to our ibiblio archive
and link to it. I'll do the same when 1.2 is out.

Reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHD_(file_format)
"VHD (Virtual Hard Disk) is a file format which represents a virtual
hard disk drive (HDD). It may contain what is found on a physical HDD,
such as disk partitions and a file system, which in turn can contain
files and folders. It is typically used as the hard disk of a virtual
machine. The format was created by Connectix for their Virtual PC
product, known as Microsoft Virtual PC since Microsoft acquired
Connectix in 2003. Since June 2005, Microsoft has made the VHD Image
Format Specification available to third parties under the Microsoft
Open Specification Promise."

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
>> I wonder if it was possible to include the guest integration drivers for
>> Virtual PC, VirtualBox, QEMU (are there any?), Hyper-V in a provided VHD
>
> Eduardo Casino has written VMSMOUNT in 2011 :-) It lets you
> mount VMWare shared directories as a FreeDOS drive letter :-)

I haven't really used VMware, but one person warned me that it
required VT-X nowadays. Also, I'm not even sure if there is still a
32-bit version either. I've heard some good things, but it might be
safer to use something else.

(Yes, I know, most others lack tools like VMSMOUNT. But at least QEMU
has partial "fat:" read/write support. VirtualBox can use FTPSRV or
whatever.)

Actually, it's probably easier to use other tools for inserting and
extracting files from disk images, e.g. Gilles V.'s Extract, 7-Zip 7z
[sic], or GNU Mtools.

> I guess it would also be possible to do something fancy for
> mouse support.

Most programs don't forcibly insist on using one, thankfully.

> DOS does not have a built-in clipboard, so a
> guest driver for that would have to do something else, such
> as Linux style "mark to put into clipboard, use middle mouse
> button to paste clipboard contents into keyboard buffer" but
> I am not aware of such guest drivers for DOS yet.

The only clipboard util (of that kind) TSR that I can think of would
be DOSCLIP.ARJ by Veit Kannegieser. Although I can't remember ever
using it, and I can't find it on his homepage anymore. But it has
sources, yet I don't know the license offhand either (don't see any
obvious mentions, might have to email him for definitive answer). Take
a look if curious:

1). https://sites.google.com/site/rugxulo/dosclip.arj?attredirects=0
1b). EDIT: also needs LHTSR: http://kannegieser.net/veit/quelle/lhtsr.arj

2). http://kannegieser.net/veit/programm/index_e.htm  (not here? even
WayBack doesn't show it, dunno!)

N.B. This may not be exactly what you wanted, but I think?? it tries
to be Win16 API compatible, so it's basically a global clipboard for
apps that are Win16 aware.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Eric Auer]

Hi Herr or Frau Beitrag!

> I wonder if it was possible to include the guest integration drivers for 
> Virtual PC, VirtualBox, QEMU (are there any?), Hyper-V in a provided VHD

Eduardo Casino has written VMSMOUNT in 2011 :-) It lets you
mount VMWare shared directories as a FreeDOS drive letter :-)

I guess it would also be possible to do something fancy for
mouse support. DOS does not have a built-in clipboard, so a
guest driver for that would have to do something else, such
as Linux style "mark to put into clipboard, use middle mouse
button to paste clipboard contents into keyboard buffer" but
I am not aware of such guest drivers for DOS yet. Same for
the possibility of guest graphics drivers, where DOS has to
rely on the BIOS and hardware VGA / VESA emulation instead.

Are there any Virtual PC, Virtual Box or QEMU specific guest
drivers for FreeDOS?

DOSEMU for example ships with magic XMS, EMS, CDROM and shared
drive and directory hooks, some of the features work without
even loading any drivers. You would want to include EMS.SYS,
CDROM.SYS, UNIX, EXITEMU, LREDIR and a few other binaries from
the DOSEMU utilities if you would boot FreeDOS from a virtual
disk image there BUT it is a lot easier to boot FreeDOS from
a shared DIRECTORY in DOSEMU instead. In that case, it might
be better to just symlink the utility directory to C:\DOSEMU\
as part of the "installation" process of FreeDOS to shared C.

> I don't think DOSBox requires a virtual hard disk image at all.

Yes and no. You can put your DOS games in a directory to let
DOSBox open them, but if you want to use FreeDOS kernel and
drivers, you probably have to use a disk image? The "normal"
style of DOSBox is that the whole DOS is a built-in illusion.

If you do not need fancy drivers and want to work mainly with
the DOSBox built-in stuff, a similar strategy as for DOSEMU
is probably easier: Ship FreeDOS as a directory ready to be
dropped in a shared directory C: "drive" for DOSBox?

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[userbeitrag]

original message from Tom Ehlert, 2016-06-20 17:42:
> .VHD is a fairly generic virtual *disk* format, and most virtual
> machines providers should be able to read them.
>
> a tiny bit more specialized are the virtual machine configuration
> files, but we should be able to provide multiple formats, for Virtual
> Box, DosBox, HyperV, ...
>
> still no rocket science, and no risk to damage user data.

I wonder if it was possible to include the guest integration drivers for 
Virtual PC, VirtualBox, QEMU (are there any?), Hyper-V in a provided VHD 
image... it's a license thing: it must be checked if the guest 
integration drivers are redistributable or not.

I don't think DOSBox requires a virtual hard disk image at all.

Cheers,
userbeitrag

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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Tom Ehlert]

>> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
>> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.
>  
> any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
> images?
>  
> Tom

> Hmm... I don't know why we haven't. I don't know anything about VHD
> though. Is that a standard virtual disk image that any PC
> emulator/virtual machine can read? Can free/open source software
> virtual machines read these (or create them)? 

.VHD is a fairly generic virtual *disk* format, and most virtual
machines providers should be able to read them.

a tiny bit more specialized are the virtual machine configuration
files, but we should be able to provide multiple formats, for Virtual
Box, DosBox, HyperV, ...

still no rocket science, and no risk to damage user data.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Jim Hall]

On Monday, June 20, 2016, Tom Ehlert  wrote:

>
> > I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
> > users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.
>
> any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
> images?
>
> Tom
>
>
Hmm... I don't know why we haven't. I don't know anything about VHD though.
Is that a standard virtual disk image that any PC emulator/virtual machine
can read? Can free/open source software virtual machines read these (or
create them)?
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Re: [Freedos-user] Games - and DOS installation

[Don Flowers]

There are by its very nature limitations to FreeDOS. Even I (one who
imagines a parallel universe where DOS still matters) have been forced to
reexamine why I should "care"  about this system at all and why I continue
to store floppy disks all over our apartment ; ^0

It is (as Eric said "a complete operating system") Perhaps it is a
"hobbyists" operating system to be tinkered with - I don't know. For some
(depending on the machine on which it is installed) it is buggy,
frustrating and not worth the effort.

For myself, for whatever reason I use FreeDOS in some form or fashion every
day. Long Live FreeDOS

On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 11:56 PM, TJ Edmister 
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 13:11:12 -0400, dmccunney 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 6:39 AM, TJ Edmister 
> > wrote:
> >> Since I boot Win2K/XP from FAT32, I also have the ability to put FD
> >> right
> >> on the C: partition and add it to my BOOT.INI as an option. This needs a
> >> little juggling of boot sectors to accomplish though.
> >
> > I have to ask: why FAT32?
> >
>
> I like FAT32. Anyway, we already had this discussion. Check your email
> archives :)
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Tom Ehlert]

> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.

any reason why we don't provide ready to run virtual machines as .VHD
images?

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Games

[Thomas Mueller]

On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> In case it hasn't already been made obvious, this is a warning for
> inexperienced users who (surprise!) would rather NOT wipe out their existing
> OS and data if all they want to do is play around and experiment with DOS.

> Perhaps it needs to mention that VMs (e.g. QEMU) are a much safer
> alternative.

Jim Hall responded:

> Yes, this warning exists because I received about a dozen complaints
> from very unhappy people after the 1.1 distribution. These people
> downloaded FreeDOS, went through the install process, and were
> surprised they had wiped out their Windows partition. So I put a note
> on the http://www.freedos.org/download/ page that let people know this
> might wipe out their C: drive. The complaints stopped after that, but
> it didn't seem to dent our number of downloads each week.
 
> I'm building the new website. I'll update the notice to encourage new
> users to install FreeDOS in a virtual machine.

Even better might be to install FreeDOS onto a USB stick.  User must still be 
sure to know where the installer is installing to, to avoid trashing something 
on the hard drive like a Windows installation.

I have no hard drive to install FreeDOS to, or for that matter ReactOS or even 
eComStation, because I use GPT on hard drives.

On the matter of FreeDOS suffering from hardware incompatibility with modern 
computers, that applies also to (open-source) ReactOS and (commercial 
closed-source and very outdated) eComStation. 

Tom


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