Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

Thanks to everybody for your advice.
I just cloned my system to the new G5, and everything went fine. :-)


Il giorno 21-09-2011 1:18, Richard Taylor ha scritto:

> The only reason to install again from scratch would be if you just
> wanted to have a completely clean, new, virgin system - if you're happy with
> the old one then there's no point to choose that over cloning.
I'm very happy with my installation and all the bits, pieces and tune-ups,
that's why I really like cloning it.


Il giorno 21-09-2011 4:55, Dan ha scritto:

> Just... be sure your first boot on the cloned volume is into Safe
> Mode.  That will ensure that the kernel and system caches are rebuilt
> fully.
Good advice!
I used Applejack to clean/rebuild everything, just in case.

> I've run into a few odd gitches doing it...  eg:  I did a clean
> install into a PowerBook G4 then cloned to a PowerMac G3 and later a
> PM G4.  It works fine.  But now and then it thinks it has bluetooth.
Talking about glitches, when cloning onto my PowerBook, I can't call
Dashboard using a Function key (like I do with the PM G4 and - now - G5)
anymore.
If i re-set the keyboard shortcut thru the Pref panel, it works, but
whenever I (re)boot, the PB keeps "forgetting" the shortcut.
Odd...

> I've never managed to get Migration Assistant to get -everything- on
> Panther, Tiger, or Leopard.  It's crashy and there's always something
> missing.  
Good to know.



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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 30-09-2011 5:10, Kris Tilford ha scritto:

> 
> 
> 
> PCI-X is on "Early 2005" and before (some early G5 are PCI only).

Thank you, I just got a "new" G5 and I had no idea if this difference.

30 years of computing and I still learn something new every other day. ;-)

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Kris Tilford]

On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote:


And what does PCI-X stands for, then?





PCI-X is on "Early 2005" and before (some early G5 are PCI only).
PCIe is on "Late 2005" only, the final G5 version.

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 21-09-2011 1:18, Richard Taylor ha scritto:

> (Incidentally, the DP 2.7GHz AGP does actually have PCI-X.
My mistake. I was referring to the video card slot.

> PCI-X and PCI Express (PCIe) are two different things.)
Oh. :-o

And what does PCI-X stands for, then?

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Richard Taylor]

> I just got a PowerMac G5, DP 2.7 AGP (not PCI-X).
> 
> I'm still using a PowerMac G4 DA, with OSX 10.4.11, and lots of installed
> bits and pieces (apps, tools, drivers, personal data, etc.).
> 
> I now have two possible options for setting up my new G5:
> - Cloning my existing OSX partition (from the G4).
> - Installing OSX 10.4.11 ex-novo, and then reinstalling/moving all the extra
> stuff (a long and tedious process).
> 
> Obviously I'd rather use the first, since it would be fast and simple.
> But I wonder if moving an OSX from a very different Mac could cause any
> trouble.
> Is there any reason for installing ex-novo, against simple cloning?
> 
> Another question: if I choose to installing ex-novo, will Migration
> Assistant be able to transfer all the "extra" bits and pieces?
> Or will there be something missing?


Cloning will be fine. OSX just looks up the hardware ID of whatever machine 
it's booting from at the time so as long as the machine hardware ID predates 
that release. OSX is much, much better behaved about that sort of thing than 
Windows is. The only reason to install again from scratch would be if you just 
wanted to have a completely clean, new, virgin system - if you're happy with 
the old one then there's no point to choose that over cloning.

(Incidentally, the DP 2.7GHz AGP does actually have PCI-X. PCI-X and PCI 
Express (PCIe) are two different things.)

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Edward Treen]

On 22 Sep 2011, at 12:39, Valter Prahlad wrote:

Il giorno 22-09-2011 13:39, Edward Treen ha scritto:

> Answer
> Finder   Preferences - General
> Show these items on the desktop:
> Check "Hard disks"
> Check "External disks"
> Check "CDs, DVDs. and iPods"
> Check "Connected servers"
> 
> and all will magically appear on your desktopŠ

Oh! Cool! :-D

Actually, it was my friend's new MacBook Pro, not mine...
but good to know, nonetheless.

Thank you! :-)


Valter,

There are many new things in Lion (and Snow Leopard) which appear by default - 
but mostly you have the option to return to what you prefer through 
preferences. It just takes a bit of exploring, or reading the help files or 
documentation online.

Ted

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 22-09-2011 13:39, Edward Treen ha scritto:

> Answer
> Finder   Preferences - General
> Show these items on the desktop:
> Check "Hard disks"
> Check "External disks"
> Check "CDs, DVDs. and iPods"
> Check "Connected servers"
> 
> and all will magically appear on your desktopŠ

Oh! Cool! :-D

Actually, it was my friend's new MacBook Pro, not mine...
but good to know, nonetheless.

Thank you! :-)

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Edward Treen]

Valter said:-
"
Talking about "newer", I have dabbled a bit on Lion, lately.
Honestly I despise it, at least the user interface.
"No disks on my desktop?!? :-o
Where have they gone? What the...!!!", etc, etc... ;-)"

Answer
Finder   Preferences - General
Show these items on the desktop:
Check "Hard disks"
Check "External disks"
Check "CDs, DVDs. and iPods"
Check "Connected servers"

and all will magically appear on your desktop…

Ted

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 21-09-2011 21:40, Kris Tilford ha scritto:

> You can run MacOS apps in Leopard using SheepShaver:
> 
Why using a (somehow working) hack, while I can having the "real thing"? :-)

Besides, Leopard has never had really good user feedback.
It has been considered a mid-step towards Snow Leopard.
I don't believe in "newer is always better". ;-)

> No need to 'split the baby' by forgoing modern supported browsers that
> are unavailable for Tiger.
I happily use TenFourFox.

Talking about "newer", I have dabbled a bit on Lion, lately.
Honestly I despise it, at least the user interface.
"No disks on my desktop?!? :-o
Where have they gone? What the...!!!", etc, etc... ;-)

(ok, it has been a short experience... but distasteful nonetheless.
It made me appreciate Windows UI, go figure ;-)

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Tina K.]

On 2011/09/21 13:40, Kris Tilford so eloquently wrote:

On Sep 21, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Valter Prahlad wrote:


I don't want Leopard.
I still need and use some Classic apps, and Leopard "killed" Classic.


You can run MacOS apps in Leopard using SheepShaver:


No need to 'split the baby' by forgoing modern supported browsers that
are unavailable for Tiger.


Or you can use Tiger and the modern TenFourFox:



Tina

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Kris Tilford]

On Sep 21, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Valter Prahlad wrote:


I don't want Leopard.
I still need and use some Classic apps, and Leopard "killed" Classic.


You can run MacOS apps in Leopard using SheepShaver:


No need to 'split the baby' by forgoing modern supported browsers that  
are unavailable for Tiger.


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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 21-09-2011 1:31, Kris Tilford ha scritto:

> Install Leopard on the G5 and use Migration Assistant to transfer
> accounts & data from the Tiger G4.

I don't want Leopard.
I still need and use some Classic apps, and Leopard "killed" Classic.

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Dan]

At 9:15 PM -0600 9/20/2011, Tina K. wrote:
Cloning works very well as long as you haven't used something like 
Monolingual to remove "unneeded" architectures. If you have than 
you'll need to do it the hard way.


Good point!  If you've gone to the effort to botch your system, then 
payback is having to do a clean install...



Oh... the other missing piece is if you've installed any processor 
specific / optimized app or library builds, such as the Camino or 
Firefox stuff from Furby or RPM or TenFourFox.  Going from G4 to G5 
should work with those, but you'll get much better performance if you 
grab the G5 builds.


- Dan.
--
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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Tina K.]

On 2011/09/20 20:55, Dan so eloquently wrote:

At 12:45 AM +0200 9/21/2011, Valter Prahlad wrote:

PowerMac G5, DP 2.7 AGP (not PCI-X).

PowerMac G4 DA, with OSX 10.4.11, and lots of installed
bits and pieces (apps, tools, drivers, personal data, etc.).

I now have two possible options for setting up my new G5:
- Cloning my existing OSX partition (from the G4).
- Installing OSX 10.4.11 ex-novo, and then reinstalling/moving all the
extra
stuff (a long and tedious process).


Clone!!!

Just... be sure your first boot on the cloned volume is into Safe Mode.
That will ensure that the kernel and system caches are rebuilt fully.


Cloning works very well as long as you haven't used something like 
Monolingual to remove "unneeded" architectures. If you have than you'll 
need to do it the hard way.


I have cloned from G4 to G5, and Powerbook to iMac with no apparent 
problems.



But I wonder if moving an OSX from a very different Mac could cause
any trouble. Is there any reason for installing ex-novo, against
simple cloning?


If the newer machine can run that OS then there should be no problem.

I've run into a few odd gitches doing it...  eg:  I did a clean install
into a PowerBook G4 then cloned to a PowerMac G3 and later a PM G4.  It
works fine.  But now and then it thinks it has bluetooth. heh.  I need
to go kill off that plist.


Another question: if I choose to installing ex-novo, will Migration
Assistant be able to transfer all the "extra" bits and pieces?
Or will there be something missing?


I've never managed to get Migration Assistant to get -everything- on
Panther, Tiger, or Leopard.  It's crashy and there's always something
missing.  The vers from SL and Lion seem to be better - and more stable.
*shrug*


I've not had good luck with Migration Assistant in the past either, 
however Carbon Copy Cloner & SyncTwoFolders have worked very well for 
me. If you do use a tool such as this be sure the settings are exactly 
what you want, one wrong setting can create a nightmare.


Tina

--

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PB G4 15" HR-DLSD 1.67GHz G4 2GB RAM Radeon 9700 128MB VRAM 10.5.8
Mac Pro Mid-2010 2.8 GHz QC 6 GB RAM Radeon HD 5770 1GB VRAM 10.6.8

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Dan]

At 12:45 AM +0200 9/21/2011, Valter Prahlad wrote:

PowerMac G5, DP 2.7 AGP (not PCI-X).

PowerMac G4 DA, with OSX 10.4.11, and lots of installed
bits and pieces (apps, tools, drivers, personal data, etc.).

I now have two possible options for setting up my new G5:
- Cloning my existing OSX partition (from the G4).
- Installing OSX 10.4.11 ex-novo, and then reinstalling/moving all the extra
stuff (a long and tedious process).


Clone!!!

Just... be sure your first boot on the cloned volume is into Safe 
Mode.  That will ensure that the kernel and system caches are rebuilt 
fully.


But I wonder if moving an OSX from a very different Mac could cause 
any trouble. Is there any reason for installing ex-novo, against 
simple cloning?


If the newer machine can run that OS then there should be no problem.

I've run into a few odd gitches doing it...  eg:  I did a clean 
install into a PowerBook G4 then cloned to a PowerMac G3 and later a 
PM G4.  It works fine.  But now and then it thinks it has bluetooth. 
heh.  I need to go kill off that plist.



Another question: if I choose to installing ex-novo, will Migration
Assistant be able to transfer all the "extra" bits and pieces?
Or will there be something missing?


I've never managed to get Migration Assistant to get -everything- on 
Panther, Tiger, or Leopard.  It's crashy and there's always something 
missing.  The vers from SL and Lion seem to be better - and more 
stable.  *shrug*


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Kris Tilford]

On Sep 20, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote:


I just got a PowerMac G5, DP 2.7 AGP (not PCI-X).


Install Leopard on the G5 and use Migration Assistant to transfer  
accounts & data from the Tiger G4.


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OSX: cloning or ex-novo?

[Valter Prahlad]

I just got a PowerMac G5, DP 2.7 AGP (not PCI-X).

I'm still using a PowerMac G4 DA, with OSX 10.4.11, and lots of installed
bits and pieces (apps, tools, drivers, personal data, etc.).

I now have two possible options for setting up my new G5:
- Cloning my existing OSX partition (from the G4).
- Installing OSX 10.4.11 ex-novo, and then reinstalling/moving all the extra
stuff (a long and tedious process).

Obviously I'd rather use the first, since it would be fast and simple.
But I wonder if moving an OSX from a very different Mac could cause any
trouble.
Is there any reason for installing ex-novo, against simple cloning?

Another question: if I choose to installing ex-novo, will Migration
Assistant be able to transfer all the "extra" bits and pieces?
Or will there be something missing?

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Re: Single user mode, cloning ?

[Dan]

At 2:20 PM -0800 2/7/2011, MichaelP wrote:
My sawtooth G4 is (sort of) working with OS 10.3.9  but IMHO  it 
(DISK A) shows bad syptoms.


A)  It's in no hurry to start independently.
B)  Starting from the Panther CD is feasible, Disk Utility works 
both as to disk repait and permissions,  - except permission  repair 
is s-l-o-w


Sounds like the disk is dying.

I can then open single user mode, but the content seems to freeze 
after about 16 lines, which mention  error in the mach_kernel


Probably corrupted or worse.

 Apparent freeze may not be forever. How long need I wait for a 
prompt which doesn't show up ?


Don't wait.

With DISK A set up in TARGET MODE, I am able to see the whole 
content of DisK A  on a diferent host computer also running on OS 
10.3.9.
I can. for instance, use Disk Utility First Aid facility again to 
repair DiskA and its permissions, and System preferences STARTUP 
authorizes  me to set Disk A for startup either in OS X or os 9.2 
mode

  -- but Disk A seems loth to start -


If that disk is dying, you're spending a lot of time *writing* to it, 
when all you should be doing is *reading* - making a backup!


how long should I wait while the "spinning disc" image shows no sign 
of moving to another phase of mounting ?


The spinning disc is the SPOD - Spinning Pinwheel of Death.  It means 
the system is stuck waiting for that resource to be available.  In 
this case, waiting for that HD.  If it's stuck during mounting 
you can perhaps check the system.log - there might be some errors 
there.


Opening Single user mode on the host works OK and responds normally 
-- BUT in that mode can I do any testing/correcting relevant to DISK 
A


Right.  Single User Mode is a very stripped down OS - just the core, 
so to speak.  The many services that you're used to using - such as 
the file system - aren't running at all!  AppleJack will start them 
for you, but still that won't help you much (see below).


Carbon Copy Cloner 2.3 allows me to set up my host disk as source 
and Disk A as target ,{or aternately the PANTHER CD as source and 
Disk A as target but I get no joy from attempting to clone even a 
small subset of itwms (eg mach_kernel) from the source to Disk A.


That sentence is a mess.  heh.

Use CCC set to an incremental backup and back up just your user 
files.  If the system is already foo, as you describe above, why try 
to back it up


One possibility is for me to Erase Disk A after I shift it's goodies 
to the space available on the host.  but I'm loth to do that until I 
certain of being able to clone a new system on Disk A


Yea.  Once you get the user data backed up, you can do a deep erase 
with Disk Utility.  From your description tho... it sounds like what 
you need to do is to get a replacement HD.


FWIW,
- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Single user mode, cloning ?

[MichaelP]

My sawtooth G4 is (sort of) working with OS 10.3.9  but IMHO  it (DISK A) 
shows bad 
syptoms.


A)  It's in no hurry to start independently.
B)  Starting from the Panther CD is feasible, Disk Utility works both as 
to disk repait and permissions,  - except permission  repair is s-l-o-w


I can then open single user mode, but the content seems to freeze after 
about 16 lines, which mention  error in the mach_kernel


Question 1: Apparent freeze may not be forever. How long need I wait for a 
prompt which doesn't show up ?


	 With DISK A set up in TARGET MODE, I am able to see the whole 
content of DisK A  on a diferent host computer also running on OS 10.3.9.
	I can. for instance, use Disk Utility First Aid facility again to 
repair DiskA and its permissions, and System preferences STARTUP 
authorizes  me to set Disk A for startup either in OS X or os 9.2 mode

  -- but Disk A seems loth to start -

Question 2:	 how long should I wait while the "spinning disc" image shows 
no sign of moving to another phase of mounting ?


Question 3.	 Opening Single user mode on the host works OK and responds 
normally -- BUT in that mode can I do any testing/correcting relevant to 
DISK A


QUESTION 4.	 Carbon Copy Cloner 2.3 allows me to set up my host disk as 
source and Disk A as target ,{or aternately the PANTHER CD as source and 
Disk A as target but I get no joy from attempting to clone even a small 
subset of itwms (eg mach_kernel) from the source to Disk A.


	One possibility is for me to Erase Disk A after I shift it's 
goodies to the space available on the host.  but I'm loth to do that until 
I certain of being able to clone a new system on Disk A



Advice or comments please

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Re: MDD won't start after cloning

[Kris Tilford]

On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:07 PM, yawg wrote:


Hi,

I have a problem that doesn't go away. I made a startup disk with Disk
Utility, a clone because DU just copied the blocks, but that disk
won't boot my Mac. I get the login screen even though I am admin and
never see that screen normally. The same if I start up in Tiger or
Panther.


Disk Utility isn't probably the best utility to clone with. A better  
alternative would be Carbon Copy Cloner as freeware, or SuperDuper! as  
commercial shareware.



When I enter my correct name and password I am still denied access.


This is probably a cloning problem. Cloning by copying block-by-block  
has this problem because symlinks may be wrong on the new HD, as well  
as various other things. Disk Utility doesn't correct these issues,  
but can still work in many instances.


My advice would be to try an boot as "Safe Boot" by holding the Shift  
key at startup. This will ditch all the old cache files and regenerate  
new ones which will likely be better for this clone. If you can't use  
your ~user name & password to login, you can change this by either  
booting an OS X Install CD/DVD and using the Change Password command  
from the Menu Bar; OR, use instructions from here to change the  
password without an Install disc:
<http://theappleblog.com/2008/06/22/reset-os-x-password-without-an-os-x-cd/ 
>



I changed the permissions with Info to my name and still no go.


I don't know what you changed, but this isn't a good idea. In Leopard  
you can't do this from the Get Info window, and if you need to do this  
at all, it's better to use a utility like BatchMod to change these.  
I'd run Disk Utility>Repair Permissions again to reset the ownerships  
& permissions back to their correct default state.


Once you can get booted by using either your old ~user & password, or  
by refreshing or changing to a new one using the instructions I gave  
above, you can go to System Preferences>Accounts to make sure it won't  
give you a login window at startup again.


Best luck!

Kris Tilford - Topeka, Kansas

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Re: MDD won't start after cloning

[Tina K.]

On 2010/10/17 17:07, yawg so eloquently wrote:

I get the login screen even though I am admin and
never see that screen normally. The same if I start up in Tiger or
Panther.


That's just a setting in System Preferences, the Security pane I believe 
though it might be in a different pane for older versions of OS X.



When I enter my correct name and password I am still denied access.


Boot from the install disk and go to Utilities, there you will be able 
to reset the password.


Tina

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MDD won't start after cloning

[yawg]

Hi,

I have a problem that doesn't go away. I made a startup disk with Disk
Utility, a clone because DU just copied the blocks, but that disk
won't boot my Mac. I get the login screen even though I am admin and
never see that screen normally. The same if I start up in Tiger or
Panther.

When I enter my correct name and password I am still denied access.
This is very annoying. I checked the disk and permissions but still no
go. I changed the permissions with Info to my name and still no go. I
have all security features switched of as I am the only user anyway.
What the h***?

TIA for your suggestions.

Regards, Jörg.

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Re: Cloning Hangs G4 Quicksilver 867

[Clark Martin]

On Aug 24, 2009, at 5:12 PM, yersi...@cybernex.net wrote:

>
> Hiya Listers,
>
> With all the wonderful praise all over this list and the Net in  
> general
> I've seen for both Carbon Copy Cloner and SuperDuper, I'm totally and
> completely shocked to say I'm having this problem -- I can't clone  
> with
> either one of these programs, and worse, they crash the Finder.
>
> The Mac is a G4 Quicksilver 867 running Tiger (10.4.9) with two  
> internal
> hard drives I want to clone to two partitions of a new OWC Mercury  
> Elite
> Pro 500 GB external USB/Firewire drive. Both CCC and SuperDuper  
> hang up
> in the cloning process -- the cloning process itself stops prematurely
> (well, CCC got through one drive once but said there were errors so I
> don't trust it) and then the Mac itself too (I have to reboot the  
> Mac to
> get rid of the beachballs because "relaunching" the Finder kills it).
>
> I was having a problem getting the external HD to show up on my  
> iBook --
> I took that to the G-Books list and while it's OK now, I don't really
> know why, and Kris Tilford suggested over there a possible firmware
> issue (my OWC drive having the 934 chipset) with THAT. Well, could  
> I be
> having a firmware problem interfering with the ability to clone?
>
> Or am I just about the only Mac user in existence who can't use CCC or
> SuperDuper?

I would start running Disk Verify in Disk Utilities.  I'd do it on  
both drives but the source is the most important.  If that doesn't  
give you a clean bill of health then you need to fix that first.

I have used CCC over 1,000 times and only had occasional trouble with  
it (I can't recall off hand what problems I had).

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Re: Cloning Hangs G4 Quicksilver 867

[Len Gerstel]

On Aug 24, 2009, at 8:12 PM, yersi...@cybernex.net wrote:

>
> Hiya Listers,
>
> With all the wonderful praise all over this list and the Net in  
> general
> I've seen for both Carbon Copy Cloner and SuperDuper, I'm totally and
> completely shocked to say I'm having this problem -- I can't clone  
> with
> either one of these programs, and worse, they crash the Finder.
>
>
> Or am I just about the only Mac user in existence who can't use CCC or
> SuperDuper?
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~Yersinia.

I had trouble with CCC. I had a corrupted file that would either hang  
CCC or crash the system. Once I tried a a few times, i noticed that  
the hang was on the same file. I trashed that one file and everything  
went fine.

So see if you can see where it is hanging or crashing. That might be  
the problem.

Len


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Cloning Hangs G4 Quicksilver 867

[yersinia]

Hiya Listers,

With all the wonderful praise all over this list and the Net in general 
I've seen for both Carbon Copy Cloner and SuperDuper, I'm totally and 
completely shocked to say I'm having this problem -- I can't clone with 
either one of these programs, and worse, they crash the Finder.

The Mac is a G4 Quicksilver 867 running Tiger (10.4.9) with two internal 
hard drives I want to clone to two partitions of a new OWC Mercury Elite 
Pro 500 GB external USB/Firewire drive. Both CCC and SuperDuper hang up 
in the cloning process -- the cloning process itself stops prematurely 
(well, CCC got through one drive once but said there were errors so I 
don't trust it) and then the Mac itself too (I have to reboot the Mac to 
get rid of the beachballs because "relaunching" the Finder kills it).

I was having a problem getting the external HD to show up on my iBook -- 
I took that to the G-Books list and while it's OK now, I don't really 
know why, and Kris Tilford suggested over there a possible firmware 
issue (my OWC drive having the 934 chipset) with THAT. Well, could I be 
having a firmware problem interfering with the ability to clone?

Or am I just about the only Mac user in existence who can't use CCC or 
SuperDuper?

Thanks,

~Yersinia.


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Re: Big Hard Drives in Sawtooth and Cloning

[insightinmind]

On Dec 30, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Charles Davis wrote:
>
> A clone copy to an external HD would be the safest thing you could do.
>
> It should (people can sometimes screw up the simplest tasks) be
> 'Bootable', which will let you get back to 'square one' without
> problems.
>
> [I.E. --- Get an external 'FW case/200GB Drive'    Clone the 60
> GB drive to a 60GB partition on the 200GB drive. Get out the screw
> driver, and swap the 60GB & 200GB drives (200GB in system, 60GB in
> external case.]
>
> At that point, you SHOULD be able to boot from the internal 200GB
> drive and be exactly where you were. (Except for now having 200GB
> internally.)

But only the first 128GB of the drive will show up ... unless you've  
done the Open Firmware hack mentioned earlier ...

> IF THIS doesn't work, carefully restore the 60GB to it's internal
> status, and tell us what you DID do, and results.

Bill Connelly
artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: Big Hard Drives in Sawtooth and Cloning

[Charles Davis]

On Dec 30, 2008, at 7:33 AM, JIM RAPER wrote:

> Hello, Y'all,
>
> I have a 450 Sawtooth AGP with 2 HDs, a 5400 60 gb and a 7200 10  
> gb. Memory is one gig. When I upgraded from OS 9.2.2, I went up to  
> a very stable OS 10.2.8. I put the OS X on the 60 gb.  I upgraded  
> to OS 10.2.8 about a year ago.
> Recently I noticed my HD(s) sounds a little off. Louder than  
> normal. No problems yet. Also I am now down to 7.4 gb  space left.  
> on the larger drive. I do some picture and sound work.
>
> I want to replace both hard drives with bigger, faster, quieter 200  
> GB range HDs. Of course I want to keep what data, settings, apps I  
> have. I have been studying about cloning my present hard drive(s).  
> But, I am not sure if I can put the size (200 or more) into my  
> present machine as it is now.
>
> Can I do the bigger drives with my present OS? Do I need to go up  
> to 10.3 or higher? Is cloning a good way to go?
>
> TIA.  Jim

Hi Jim;

A clone copy to an external HD would be the safest thing you could do.

It should (people can sometimes screw up the simplest tasks) be  
'Bootable', which will let you get back to 'square one' without  
problems.

[I.E. --- Get an external 'FW case/200GB Drive'    Clone the 60  
GB drive to a 60GB partition on the 200GB drive. Get out the screw  
driver, and swap the 60GB & 200GB drives (200GB in system, 60GB in  
external case.]

At that point, you SHOULD be able to boot from the internal 200GB  
drive and be exactly where you were. (Except for now having 200GB  
internally.)
IF THIS doesn't work, carefully restore the 60GB to it's internal  
status, and tell us what you DID do, and results.

Chuck D.


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Re: Big Hard Drives in Sawtooth and Cloning

[PeterH]

On Dec 30, 2008, at 5:07 AM, Bucky wrote:

> The firmware hack has the advantage of being based in the hardware's
> firmware, and as such installers will see everything past the 128
> mark. BUT will be lost anytime Open firmware is reset. It is also very
> free.  This is probably safer, I Do not know if this works under 9.2
> though as I Didn't have classic when I started using this method.
>

The LBA48 property is lost ONLY IF the "reset-nvram" O.F. command is  
issued.

If NVRAM is not reset, then the property remains active.

The LBA48 property is automatically included in all QS 2002 and later  
G4s.



> The Hi Cap driver costs money. and is an actual driver inside the OS.
> This would have to be reinstalled any time you reinstall the OS. It
> doesn't support OS 9. but does support 10.2 and up.

It isn't needed on OS 9, per se. However, a special initializer is  
needed for OS 9, which is provided by HDST.

It IS needed on OS X, and it works up to 10.4.11, but it doesn't work  
on 10.5, which is why I abandoned it and went back to LBA48.

LBA48 works on all later G4s (AGP and later, I believe, and certainly  
on all Gigabit through QS 2001).



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Re: Big Hard Drives in Sawtooth and Cloning

[insightinmind]

On Dec 30, 2008, at 8:07 AM, Bucky wrote:

>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 7:33 am, "JIM RAPER"  wrote:
>> Hello, Y'all,
>>
>> I have a 450 Sawtooth AGP with 2 HDs, a 5400 60 gb and a 7200 10  
>> gb. Memory
>> is one gig. When I upgraded from OS 9.2.2, I went up to a very  
>> stable OS
>> 10.2.8. I put the OS X on the 60 gb.  I upgraded to OS 10.2.8  
>> about a year
>> ago.
>> Recently I noticed my HD(s) sounds a little off. Louder than  
>> normal. No
>> problems yet. Also I am now down to 7.4 gb  space left. on the  
>> larger drive.
>> I do some picture and sound work.
>>
>> I want to replace both hard drives with bigger, faster, quieter  
>> 200 GB range
>> HDs. Of course I want to keep what data, settings, apps I have. I  
>> have been
>> studying about cloning my present hard drive(s). But, I am not  
>> sure if I can
>> put the size (200 or more) into my present machine as it is now.
>>
>> Can I do the bigger drives with my present OS? Do I need to go up  
>> to 10.3 or
>> higher? Is cloning a good way to go?

Howdy,

In my PCI Graphics Yikes! under Tiger 10.4.11, I use a Sonnet Tempo  
ATA/100 PCI Card and could have larger than 128GB PATA HDs in there  
"natively", but being honest, I only have an 80GB at present. To boot  
off the card, I'm also using Xpostfacto, since I don't have a drive  
off the mobo ATA channel. The Startup finds the drive without XPF,  
but it seems cleaner to use XPF.

You wouldn't need the LA48 (name?) hack or any software, or have to  
worry about partitioning at 128GB ... not that those techniques would  
be troublesome.

AFIK, In lieu of PATA PCI cards / drives, you could also buy SATA PCI  
cards now, and use the more modern SATA HDs as well.

Then clone (CCC 3.1.3) from your off-the-mobo drives to your new  
drives easily.

Bye now,

Bill Connelly
artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: Big Hard Drives in Sawtooth and Cloning

[Bucky]

On Dec 30, 7:33 am, "JIM RAPER"  wrote:
> Hello, Y'all,
>
> I have a 450 Sawtooth AGP with 2 HDs, a 5400 60 gb and a 7200 10 gb. Memory
> is one gig. When I upgraded from OS 9.2.2, I went up to a very stable OS
> 10.2.8. I put the OS X on the 60 gb.  I upgraded to OS 10.2.8 about a year
> ago.
> Recently I noticed my HD(s) sounds a little off. Louder than normal. No
> problems yet. Also I am now down to 7.4 gb  space left. on the larger drive.
> I do some picture and sound work.
>
> I want to replace both hard drives with bigger, faster, quieter 200 GB range
> HDs. Of course I want to keep what data, settings, apps I have. I have been
> studying about cloning my present hard drive(s). But, I am not sure if I can
> put the size (200 or more) into my present machine as it is now.
>
> Can I do the bigger drives with my present OS? Do I need to go up to 10.3 or
> higher? Is cloning a good way to go?
>
> TIA.  Jim

Anything bigger than 128GB is not *exactly* supported on anything
older than the 2002 quicksilver (PowerMacs).

There are 2 routes that would give you the full size though. either
through the Hi-cap driver from intech.  or a open-firmware hack that
adds it from Firmware.

The firmware hack has the advantage of being based in the hardware's
firmware, and as such installers will see everything past the 128
mark. BUT will be lost anytime Open firmware is reset. It is also very
free.  This is probably safer, I Do not know if this works under 9.2
though as I Didn't have classic when I started using this method.

The Hi Cap driver costs money. and is an actual driver inside the OS.
This would have to be reinstalled any time you reinstall the OS. It
doesn't support OS 9. but does support 10.2 and up.


With EITHER of these methods, when formatting, do not make any
partitions that will cross the 128GB mark. Any thing before and after
is just fine as rain.  This is so that if you have problems, such as
if you have to reset firmware, or the driver somehow fails (remember,
the driver has to be installed on the OS),

You will only temporarily lose access to the partitions after the
128GB mark, Won't have any corruption issues, and can easily reinstate
the driver or patch.

I use the first method in my GigaE. I am very satisfied with my 200GB
drive.

Good luck!

Bucky



Using either of these methods
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Big Hard Drives in Sawtooth and Cloning

[JIM RAPER]

Hello, Y'all,

I have a 450 Sawtooth AGP with 2 HDs, a 5400 60 gb and a 7200 10 gb. Memory
is one gig. When I upgraded from OS 9.2.2, I went up to a very stable OS
10.2.8. I put the OS X on the 60 gb.  I upgraded to OS 10.2.8 about a year
ago.
Recently I noticed my HD(s) sounds a little off. Louder than normal. No
problems yet. Also I am now down to 7.4 gb  space left. on the larger drive.
I do some picture and sound work.

I want to replace both hard drives with bigger, faster, quieter 200 GB range
HDs. Of course I want to keep what data, settings, apps I have. I have been
studying about cloning my present hard drive(s). But, I am not sure if I can
put the size (200 or more) into my present machine as it is now.

Can I do the bigger drives with my present OS? Do I need to go up to 10.3 or
higher? Is cloning a good way to go?

TIA.  Jim

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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 11:30 AM -0700 11/24/2008, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>Any Firewire drive and I'm pretty sure with your Mac, any USB drive is
>bootable. (albeit slowly)

It's one of those weeks.  On m'fav Smurf, the built-in firewire is 
dead.  And now my fw/usb card has fried.  (I think a shorted usb 
memory stick is the culprit).  So I'm running backups to my external 
via USB 1...  It's s slw.  sooo 
slooowBut it's working!

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning

[Anne Keller-Smith]

Wow - Dan, I'm sold. Very nice.

On Thursday, November 6, 2008, at 12:40  PM, Dan wrote:
> Use CCC.  The new version is very nice.  You tell it what folders to
> copy and it does it.  As an incremental backup, If you check the
> "archive modified and deleted items" box, then instead of deleting
> the stale data on the backup, it moves 'em into a time-stamped
> folder.  This is the equivalent of TM's history but without the
> pretty interface (you just poke in with Finder to get older stuff you
> need).

Anne Keller Smith
Down to Earth Web Design
Beautiful Web Sites that Work
http://www.downtoearthweb.com


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Re: Cloning

[Bruce Johnson]

On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Anne Keller-Smith wrote:

> I would prolly actually have to seek out such, since there weren't any
> at the local Staples or Best Buy.

Any Firewire drive and I'm pretty sure with your Mac, any USB drive is  
bootable. (albeit slowly)

They will not specify this on the box, because they're all completely  
Windows-centric in their documentation, and you have to reformat the  
drive using Disk Utility to be HFS+ before it's bootable, but all the  
external drives that Staples or Best Buy can boot any modern mac.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Cloning

[Anne Keller-Smith]

Hiya ~

But I need to have a bootable external drive to create a bootable  
system, correct? This I do not yet have.

I would prolly actually have to seek out such, since there weren't any  
at the local Staples or Best Buy. I don't configure much, so am  
thinking do an archive and install on the system, add back the files  
from one of the non-bootables and downloaded apps and I'm ready to go,  
more or less. Oh, yes, add back the fonts.

My Mac works so well I haven't yet had time to test this theory. It's a  
2001 Mac purchased in 2002, so have had for six years and it just works  
day in day out. I love my Mac.

On Wednesday, November 5, 2008, at 09:15  AM, dc wrote:

>
> Use a cloning utility like arbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper and you
> will have a bootable system with all your files intact. If your Macs
> hard drive fails you can simply swap the drive from your external
> enclosure.
>
> On Nov 4, 10:00 pm, Anne Keller-Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi all ~
>>
>> Been using a Maxtor and a Fantom hard drive to back up files. These  
>> are
>> not bootable, so I have always assumed in case of a major OS
>> malfunction I would lose much of my user configuration, but what the
>> hey. Retrospect does a good job backing up what's new and changed. My
>> question is, if I just dragged files to the hard drive (I actually do
>> this to make my own archives, old files are loaded onto both drives  
>> and
>> then deleted from my computer) am I going to have permissions  
>> problems?
>> I haven't had any so far.
>>
>> What are the issues here?
>>
>> Was considering Time Machine but my brain balked at the $300 price  
>> tag.
>> Got the Airport Express Extreme though on account I wanted to network
>> the G4 with the new iMac in order to get both on my cable modem. (G4
>> did not have a wireless card it turns out).
>>
>> Anne Keller Smith
>> Down to Earth Creations
>> Jewelry that Sings to Your  
>> Spirithttp://www.downtoearthcreations.comhttp:// 
>> www.downtoearthcreations.etsy.comhttp:// 
>> www.downtoearthcreations.blogspot.com
> >
>
>

Anne Keller Smith
Down to Earth Web Design
Beautiful Web Sites that Work
http://www.downtoearthweb.com


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Re: Cloning

[insightinmind]

On Nov 20, 2008, at 9:11 PM, Al Poulin wrote:

>
>
> On Nov 20, 2008, at 4:16 AM, g3-5-list group wrote:
>
>> == 1 of 1 ==
>> Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 7:29 pm
>> From: insightinmind
>>
>> Perhaps talking to myself ... but ...
>>
>> I wanted to report success at using CCC 3.1.2 across my Westell 327W
>> network ...

> Bill:
>
> You just talked to me too.  Thanks for the update, showing that the
> new CCC works as I plan to use it.
>
> Al Poulin


Thanks ... lately, I seem to be discussing things a lot in my own  
head ... good to know there's someone out there who might be  
listening ... (LOL).

Additional Note: Relative to Permissions and Ownership things - When  
cloning using CCC 3.1.2, make sure in the Get Info windows, the  
"Ignore ownership on this volume" is NOT checked ... the resulting  
clone is Ownership and Permissions confused (best explanation I can  
come up with) ... I'm referring to Tiger's Get Info at present  
(Leopard might be the same?) ... looks like the boot partition  
doesn't have this option ... if it were an OS X system partition not  
booted from, I believe it would have one, and be checked  
automatically ... cloning that will cause problems in the final clone.

I made this mistake twice.

The CCC documentation mentions it ... (who said that?)

Kidding,

Bill Connelly
artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: Cloning

[Al Poulin]

On Nov 20, 2008, at 4:16 AM, g3-5-list group wrote:

> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 7:29 pm
> From: insightinmind
>
> Perhaps talking to myself ... but ...
>
> I wanted to report success at using CCC 3.1.2 across my Westell 327W
> network ... backing up 4 partitions from my Yikes! (Tiger, Classic,
> APPS, DOCS) to an External Firewire OWC Elite (Seagate) off my QS
> Dual 1GHz ... but only after I replaced my somewhat flaky Airlink3026
> USB2 WAN with a Rosewill RC400 10/100/1000 PCI ethernet card (aka
> Realtec 8169 chipset).
>
> Couldn't even sense it was going over the network to the external
> drive ...

Bill:

You just talked to me too.  Thanks for the update, showing that the  
new CCC works as I plan to use it.

Al Poulin

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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 10:29 PM -0500 11/19/2008, insightinmind wrote:
>  > Nice idea if I could get the Westell 327W to stop dropping the
>  > connection, part way through the CCC 3.1.2 update ...
>
>I wanted to report success at using CCC 3.1.2 across my Westell 327W 
>network ... backing up 4 partitions from my Yikes! (Tiger, Classic, 
>APPS, DOCS) to an External Firewire OWC Elite (Seagate) off my QS 
>Dual 1GHz ...

Great!

>but only after I replaced my somewhat flaky Airlink3026 USB2 WAN 
>with a Rosewill RC400 10/100/1000 PCI ethernet card (aka Realtec 
>8169 chipset).

I'm having a bad time testing CCC over wi-fi.  So much smoother wired...

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning

[insightinmind]

On Nov 6, 2008, at 8:16 PM, insightinmind wrote:

>
>
>
>>
>> I assume that each Mac would need its own, dedicated backup partition
>> on that external storage, and that it would be bootable.
>>
>> Would it be feasible, or better even, to use Network-attached Storage
>> (NAS) with CCC?  I understand that NAS can work via ethernet and Wi-
>> Fi.  My wife prefers to go Wi-Fi for her MacBook with something like
>> Time Capsule.  But using the expensive Time Capsule excludes CCC and
>> means I'd still need one or more additional external drive(s) to get
>> bootable clones of the several Macintoshes' hard drives.
>>
>> Using Leopard OS X 10.5.2 or later on all machines, and all have
>> Airport.
>
> I tried to use CCC 3.1.2 across my home network between a PCI
> Graphics Yikes! running Tiger 10.4.11, and my QS 2002 Dual 1GHz
> running Leopard 10.5.5 and hosting the external backup FW drive. I
> did the initial backup off the Yikes! connecting the FW drive  
> directly.
>
> The QS is connected by a slow USB connected Airlink wireless bar,
> with an iffy Zydas driver.
>
> It should be working, but the connection gets dropped along the
> network transfer. I perhaps need a USB 2 card for my QS, so the
> Airlink can reach 54Mb in lieu of 11Mb (forgetting the units?). My
> Yikes! is connected at 100Mb.
>
> CCC 3.1.2 has a good description of how to make the link using
> Authentication Credentials on each computer, and it wasn't too hard
> to follow ... when I wasn't tired.
>
> I'm backing up Tiger, APPS, DOCS and Classic partitions ... one at a
> time from my Yikes! to the QS attached FW drive (or want to when
> things get worked out).
>
> The QS's external FW drive (a 750GB Seagate) also has a partition for
> Time Machine's backup of the QS, skipping the partitions for the
> Yikes! backup partitions.
>
> Nice idea if I could get the Westell 327W to stop dropping the
> connection, part way through the CCC 3.1.2 update ...

Perhaps talking to myself ... but ...

I wanted to report success at using CCC 3.1.2 across my Westell 327W  
network ... backing up 4 partitions from my Yikes! (Tiger, Classic,  
APPS, DOCS) to an External Firewire OWC Elite (Seagate) off my QS  
Dual 1GHz ... but only after I replaced my somewhat flaky Airlink3026  
USB2 WAN with a Rosewill RC400 10/100/1000 PCI ethernet card (aka  
Realtec 8169 chipset).

Couldn't even sense it was going over the network to the external  
drive ...

Zoom ... Zoom ... Zoom ...

Bill Connelly
artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: Prior to cloning drive...

[Dan]

At 11:34 AM -0500 11/14/2008, Steve R wrote:
>  >  As for the downgrade... how come?
>
>All my apps run well in Tiger, seem a bit slower in Leopard.

This is a 1.8 GHz iMac G5 with 3 GB RAM  (trying to glean specs from 
your posting)?  How much free disk space?

Check to make sure you're not running memory poor, given you app mix. 
Get everything going then look at the Memory pane in Activity Monitor.

>This G5 has run hot from the day I got it used and with Leopard it's 
>been running even hotter which probably accounts for the kernel 
>panics. After the last software update I started getting kernel 
>panics within the apps themselves, particularly Safari which will 
>panic on the first link clicked.

The OS panics - total crash of the system, requiring a reboot.

Apps crash - the app goes belly up but the system continues.

You have a thread going that details this?  If not, hit me with the 
system, panic, and crash logs (email 'em as zipped attachements 
please, not pasted text).  I'm curious to see exactly what's causing 
it.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Prior to cloning drive...

[Steve R]

At 11:08 AM -0500 11/14/08, Dan posted:
>  At 8:11 AM -0500 11/14/2008, Steve R wrote:
>>I've decided to downgrade my G5 from Leopard to Tiger, and will be
>>cloning the OS partition to a firewire drive with SuperDuper prior to
>>downgrading. Is there anything I should be aware of prior to making
>>the clone? I plan on running Onyx or Cocktail prior to the clone.
>
>  I guess use OnyX to clean things up a bit.  Delete the user caches,
>  run the maintenance tasks.  That will save you a little space / time
>  on the the clone.  Not overly necessary tho.
>
>  As for the downgrade... how come?

I'm not overly ecstatic with Leopard. I don't use Time Machine and 
everything else is eye candy. All my apps run well in Tiger, seem a 
bit slower in Leopard. I had thought it was because I did an archive 
and update but I nuked and paved a fresh Leopard with no changes 
other than now getting kernel panics on a daily basis. This G5 has 
run hot from the day I got it used and with Leopard it's been running 
even hotter which probably accounts for the kernel panics. After the 
last software update I started getting kernel panics within the apps 
themselves, particularly Safari which will panic on the first link 
clicked. A web search showed other G5/1.8mHz have experienced an 
increase in kernel panics as well, although some have been running 
with far less than my 3GB of RAM. I'm not interested in 
troubleshooting the kernel panics when I didn't have them in Tiger 
although I have been sending the reports on to Apple. Some people 
have attributed early hard drive failure to repeated kernel panics 
and I'm not interested in replacing a six month old drive because of 
early failure.

If that doesn't solve the problem, I'll probably get an eMac. Simon 
made them seem appealing once they have enough RAM.

Steve R



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Re: Prior to cloning drive...

[Dan]

At 8:11 AM -0500 11/14/2008, Steve R wrote:
>I've decided to downgrade my G5 from Leopard to Tiger, and will be
>cloning the OS partition to a firewire drive with SuperDuper prior to
>downgrading. Is there anything I should be aware of prior to making
>the clone? I plan on running Onyx or Cocktail prior to the clone.

I guess use OnyX to clean things up a bit.  Delete the user caches, 
run the maintenance tasks.  That will save you a little space / time 
on the the clone.  Not overly necessary tho.

As for the downgrade... how come?

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: OSX ate my rights!! Was: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi all,

Sorry for the double post. I forgot about my e-mail setup and replied
directly from the Google group.

Should have replied from my G-mail account ...

Jörg.
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Re: OSX ate my rights!! Was: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi all,

Sorry for the double post. I forgot about my e-mail setup and replied
directly from the Google group.

Should have replied from my G-mail account ...

Jörg.
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Prior to cloning drive...

[Steve R]

I've decided to downgrade my G5 from Leopard to Tiger, and will be 
cloning the OS partition to a firewire drive with SuperDuper prior to 
downgrading. Is there anything I should be aware of prior to making 
the clone? I plan on running Onyx or Cocktail prior to the clone.

Steve R

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Re: OSX ate my rights!! Was: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi Dan,

> Ok.  I'm pre-coffee... so...  18 years huh?   Then why didn't you
> bother to say that the apps themselves don't work  That does
> kindof change the WHOLE nature of the issue... 

I said literally "the programs don't work".

> >My disks seem to be fine.

> Except that you have fatal i/o error on the source and your
> destination is obviously corrupted, since apps aren't working right.

All apps work perfectly. Only about half of my classic apps stopped
working under Tiger  (like Illustrator 9 and all 3 Quark XPress
versions I use) i.e. directly after the "upgrade" they became
unavailable. Under Panther everything is still perfect.

> >What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
> >busy when being cloned?

> No, not busy.

> It means rsync tried to read the data from the HD and it FAILED.  The
> hard drive refused to provide the data because of a FATAL error.
> Either the hard drive had a controller problem or the the data blocks
> involved have become unreadable.  Further details might be available
> in your system log.

In between I did a file-level clone with the new CCC under Tiger and
everything went well. So perhaps the old CCC app had some bugs?

> >Can I just look up the BootX file on an installer CD and replace the
> >flaky one with that?

> IFF (If and ONLY if) it's just those files or directories involved,
> then yes.  BUT given your other issues, I'm wondering what else has
> died on that drive.

The error occurred always only on the BootX-file. Before the error
occurred I was successfully cloning both my drives twice a week w/o
any errors. The few other problems I had before (CCC just stopped
cloning) were probably caused because in the beginning I was cloning
in the background thus actually changing the drive I was cloning ...

But now comes the clincher: When I was busy replacing the BootX file
from an older Panther clone on a FireWire drive I accidentally put the
CoreServices folder in the trash (command-backspace). I meant the
BootX file but the folder was highlighted.

How is that possible anyway? The owner of CoreServices is/was system,
I'm only the humble admin ...

And then I couldn't get the darn thing out of the trash again - no
permissions! Wow!! OSX let me trash an absolutely essential folder but
I can't retrieve it again. What a PITA ...

Some bad blocks huh? Better get a new drive. What happened to SMART
anyway? That's supposed to warn me when my drive gets flaky or not?
DiskUtility tells me that SMART was checked. So my SMART went DUMB on
me ...

I probably have still warranty on that Western Digital drive but I
won't get a new drive with this "hazy" story I guess. How do you kill
a drive w/o visible destruction on the outside? ;-)

After my original boot volume was thus crippled I tried to start
(restarted with the alt-key) from the clone on the other drive (that
system partition booted perfectly before) and that gave me the darn
message in three languages to restart my computer. This is the most
stupid message of OSX I know because a simple restart will never help!
They should add that you will have to push the alt-key when restarting
and choose another drive to start up from. If you have one that is ...

So I still had a bootable Tiger volume left and started up from that.
Then I replaced the BootX file in the CoreServices folder of my clone
that wouldn't start (still can't figure out why) with that from the
external and copied that folder to the crippled volume. Then I
restarted from that volume and all was hunky dory again. But it gave
me a bit of a scare I can tell you.

As you can see having three boot volumes isn't a luxury sometimes ...

Regards, Jörg.

On Nov 7, 4:54 pm, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 3:38 AM -0800 11/7/2008, yawg wrote:
>
> Please remember to BOTTOM post and TRIM on these LEM lists.
> It makes tracking support issues MUCH easier.
>
> >I know about aliases, have been working with Macs for 18 years. The
> >question marks aside the  apps themselves don't work when I open
> >them in ther real folders.
>
> Ok.  I'm pre-coffee... so...  18 years huh?   Then why didn't you
> bother to say that the apps themselves don't work  That does
> kindof change the WHOLE nature of the issue... 
>
> >My disks seem to be fine.
>
> Except that you have fatal i/o error on the source and your
> destination is obviously corrupted, since apps aren't working right.
>
> >What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
> >busy when being cloned?
>
> No, not busy.
>
> It means rsync tried to read the data from the HD and it FAILED.  The
> hard drive refused to provide the data because of a FATAL error.
> Either the hard dr

Re: OSX ate my rights!! Was: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi Dan,

> Ok.  I'm pre-coffee... so...  18 years huh?   Then why didn't you
> bother to say that the apps themselves don't work  That does
> kindof change the WHOLE nature of the issue... 

I said literally "the programs don't work".

> >My disks seem to be fine.

> Except that you have fatal i/o error on the source and your
> destination is obviously corrupted, since apps aren't working right.

All apps work perfectly. Only about half of my classic apps stopped
working under Tiger  (like Illustrator 9 and all 3 Quark XPress
versions I use) i.e. directly after the "upgrade" they became
unavailable. Under Panther everything is still perfect.

> >What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
> >busy when being cloned?

> No, not busy.

> It means rsync tried to read the data from the HD and it FAILED.  The
> hard drive refused to provide the data because of a FATAL error.
> Either the hard drive had a controller problem or the the data blocks
> involved have become unreadable.  Further details might be available
> in your system log.

In between I did a file-level clone with the new CCC under Tiger and
everything went well. So perhaps the old CCC app had some bugs?

> >Can I just look up the BootX file on an installer CD and replace the
> >flaky one with that?

> IFF (If and ONLY if) it's just those files or directories involved,
> then yes.  BUT given your other issues, I'm wondering what else has
> died on that drive.

The error occurred always only on the BootX-file. Before the error
occurred I was successfully cloning both my drives twice a week w/o
any errors. The few other problems I had before (CCC just stopped
cloning) were probably caused because in the beginning I was cloning
in the background thus actually changing the drive I was cloning ...

But now comes the clincher: When I was busy replacing the BootX file
from an older Panther clone on a FireWire drive I accidentally put the
CoreServices folder in the trash (command-backspace). I meant the
BootX file but the folder was highlighted.

How is that possible anyway? The owner of CoreServices is/was system,
I'm only the humble admin ...

And then I couldn't get the darn thing out of the trash again - no
permissions! Wow!! OSX let me trash an absolutely essential folder but
I can't retrieve it again. What a PITA ...

Some bad blocks huh? Better get a new drive. What happened to SMART
anyway? That's supposed to warn me when my drive gets flaky or not?
DiskUtility tells me that SMART was checked. So my SMART went DUMB on
me ...

I probably have still warranty on that Western Digital drive but I
won't get a new drive with this "hazy" story I guess. How do you kill
a drive w/o visible destruction on the outside? ;-)

After my original boot volume was thus crippled I tried to start
(restarted with the alt-key) from the clone on the other drive (that
system partition booted perfectly before) and that gave me the darn
message in three languages to restart my computer. This is the most
stupid message of OSX I know because a simple restart will never help!
They should add that you will have to push the alt-key when restarting
and choose another drive to start up from. If you have one that is ...

So I still had a bootable Tiger volume left and started up from that.
Then I replaced the BootX file in the CoreServices folder of my clone
that wouldn't start (still can't figure out why) with that from the
external and copied that folder to the crippled volume. Then I
restarted from that volume and all was hunky dory again. But it gave
me a bit of a scare I can tell you.

As you can see having three boot volumes isn't a luxury sometimes ...

Regards, Jörg.

On Nov 7, 4:54 pm, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 3:38 AM -0800 11/7/2008, yawg wrote:
>
> Please remember to BOTTOM post and TRIM on these LEM lists.
> It makes tracking support issues MUCH easier.
>
> >I know about aliases, have been working with Macs for 18 years. The
> >question marks aside the  apps themselves don't work when I open
> >them in ther real folders.
>
> Ok.  I'm pre-coffee... so...  18 years huh?   Then why didn't you
> bother to say that the apps themselves don't work  That does
> kindof change the WHOLE nature of the issue... 
>
> >My disks seem to be fine.
>
> Except that you have fatal i/o error on the source and your
> destination is obviously corrupted, since apps aren't working right.
>
> >What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
> >busy when being cloned?
>
> No, not busy.
>
> It means rsync tried to read the data from the HD and it FAILED.  The
> hard drive refused to provide the data because of a FATAL error.
> Either the hard dr

Re: OSX ate my rights!! Was: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi Dan,

> Ok.  I'm pre-coffee... so...  18 years huh?   Then why didn't you
> bother to say that the apps themselves don't work  That does
> kindof change the WHOLE nature of the issue... 

I said literally "the programs don't work".

> >My disks seem to be fine.
>
> Except that you have fatal i/o error on the source and your
> destination is obviously corrupted, since apps aren't working right.

All apps work perfectly. Only about half of my classic apps stopped
working under Tiger  (like Illustrator 9 and all 3 Quark XPress
versions I use) i.e. directly after the "upgrade" they became
unavailable. Under Panther everything is still perfect.

> >What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
> >busy when being cloned?
>
> No, not busy.
>
> It means rsync tried to read the data from the HD and it FAILED.  The
> hard drive refused to provide the data because of a FATAL error.
> Either the hard drive had a controller problem or the the data blocks
> involved have become unreadable.  Further details might be available
> in your system log.

I did a file-level clone with the new CCC under Tiger and everything
went well. So perhaps the old CCC apps had some bugs?

> >Can I just look up the BootX file on an installer CD and replace the
> >flaky one with that?
>
> IFF (If and ONLY if) it's just those files or directories involved,
> then yes.  BUT given your other issues, I'm wondering what else has
> died on that drive.

The error occurred always only on the BootX-file. Before the error
occurred I was successfully cloning both my drives twice a week w/o
any errors. The few errors I had before were probably caused because
in the beginning I was cloning in the background thus actually
changing the drive I was cloning ...

But now the clincher: When I was busy replacing the BootX file from an
older Panther clone on a FireWire drive I accidentally put the

> I'm thinking you need to find out how bad the problem is.  It may be
> that your source drive is dying.  It may be that the media just grew
> a few bad blocks.  You need to get your user data backed up, check
> the log files, then repave that whole drive (all its volumes).  Erase
> / Zero it, at least two passes, to make sure all the bad blocks get
> mapped out.  Check the logs to make sure there were no fatal
> controller errors.  If none, then it might be safe to reload it from
> scratch.
>
> ...If the backups you have are block-level clones, then you might not
> be able to trust them!  A perfect copy of corrupted data is itself
> corrupted...
>
> HTH,
> - Dan.
> --
> - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth
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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 9:27 AM -0700 11/12/2008, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Nov 11, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dan wrote:
>
>>  I"m waiting for 'em to support segmenting for burning.  The idea
>>  being to to divide the backup into DVD-sided chunks, to facilitate
>>  easy burning.  Kindof the way DiskFit did, back in the early 1990s,
>>  with floppies.
>
>There's an old unix command-line utility to do that: split. I'd 
>experiment first but I"m pretty sure you can pipe the output of a 
>command into split and spit out various sized chunks.

Splitting a giant CCC-created sparse disk image is easy enough.

   hdiutil segment -o volume.dmg -segmentSize 4.37g temp.dmg

But once split, it's useless until rejoined.  Having to read n DVDs 
just to recover one file?  ew.

DiskFit shuffled things around so the files on the floppies were not 
"split" unless they were physically larger than the floppy.  That way 
individual file recoveries were a snap - just a Finder drag!

I want a diskfit-like operation.  Have CCC directly create n 4 GB dmg 
files, appropriately filling and shuffling the files between them for 
me, splitting >4GB individual files only when absolutely necessary.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning

[Bruce Johnson]

On Nov 11, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dan wrote:

> I"m waiting for 'em to support segmenting for burning.  The idea
> being to to divide the backup into DVD-sided chunks, to facilitate
> easy burning.  Kindof the way DiskFit did, back in the early 1990s,
> with floppies.

There's an old unix command-line utility to do that: split. I'd  
experiment first but I"m pretty sure you can pipe the output of a  
command into split and spit out various sized chunks.

As of 10.4 you needed to compile the latest version to get pieces  
larger than 2GB 

You would need to write an applescript wrapper around CCC if  there  
isn't a command-line version of CCC.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 11:23 AM -0800 11/11/2008, Al wrote:
>  > Maintaining a single separate partition for *each* Mac is the easiest
>>  / cleanest solution.  It means you'll use more storage in total but
>>  it keeps things clean on a per system basis.
>>  No need for an additional set of partitions.  
>
>Okay, total of four bootable partitions, one for each Mac.  And I use
>those same partitions for the incremental backups, right?

yes.

Traditionally, the method was to create a full backup once a month, 
then create incrementals thereafter.  You reconstructed things by 
laborously applying the incrementals to the full backup.  This ment 
that the full backup was NOT representative of your "current" state.

CCC has changed this dynamic a bit.  Functionally the same, but 
eliminates the hassle.  This is better, IMO.  The full backup - a hot 
clone - is kept up-to-date.  The stale stuff is moved aside, to 
become "yesterday's" incremental.  No need to reconstruct things! 
The full backup is already up-to-date!

Time Machine (when it works) uses the same general method as CCC but 
automates rolling things "back".  Cute but not overly necessary, IMO.

>can SuperDuper do the same encrypted tunnel trick between two Macs like CCC?

I don't recall seeing that in the docs, but I haven't checked recently.

>If I remember correctly, you used to favor SuperDuper for its ease 
>of use.  It seems CCC has caught up?

The old CCC missed metadata and couldn't do incrementals easily.  CCC 
has now addressed both of those issues and sports the spiffy new 
clean interface.  It will be interesting to see how SD responds...

I"m waiting for 'em to support segmenting for burning.  The idea 
being to to divide the backup into DVD-sided chunks, to facilitate 
easy burning.  Kindof the way DiskFit did, back in the early 1990s, 
with floppies.  (DiskFit has grown up in both bloat and price - it's 
called Retrospect now).

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning

[Al]

On Nov 11, 10:40 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Um, yes but I'm not sure what "with ethernet" means in this context.
> How does ethernet come into play when setting up partitions?

Sorry, I was not clear here.  I meant that the Macs are connected by
ethernet LAN, not using Wi-Fi, and not getting into NAS.

> Maintaining a single separate partition for *each* Mac is the easiest
> / cleanest solution.  It means you'll use more storage in total but
> it keeps things clean on a per system basis.
> No need for an additional set of partitions.  

Okay, total of four bootable partitions, one for each Mac.  And I use
those same partitions for the incremental backups, right?
>
> RAID is expensive.  Use RAID to improve the performance of your live system.
> Use normal volumes to do your backups - that you can disconnect, etc.

Thanks, no RAID here.

And two final questions:
And can SuperDuper do the same encrypted tunnel trick between two Macs
like CCC?
If I remember correctly, you used to favor SuperDuper for its ease of
use.  It seems CCC has caught up?

Many Thanks for all your help.

Al Poulin
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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 2:55 PM -0500 11/9/2008, Charles Davis wrote:
>On Nov 9, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Al wrote:

*grumble* Google groups *grumble* yet-another message not received *grumble*

>  > So, these two, separate replies mean that I may be able to do
>>  everything I want with CCC going to one FireWire or bootable USB-2
>>  external drive.

As long as they're connected to another Mac, not a NAS type disk server.

>  > (1) Set up a partition for each of four Macs with ethernet to make
>>  bootable clones of all internal hard drives, taking entire contents.

Um, yes but I'm not sure what "with ethernet" means in this context. 
How does ethernet come into play when setting up partitions?

>  > (2) Set up space(s) for the Users folder of each internal hard drive
>>  to take incremental, maybe daily, backups.  A question here is whether
>>  I need four more partitions, or can I use one partition with four
>>  distinct target folders, one folder for each Mac?

Maintaining a single separate partition for *each* Mac is the easiest 
/ cleanest solution.  It means you'll use more storage in total but 
it keeps things clean on a per system basis.

No need for an additional set of partitions.  Use CCC's incremental 
backup's "Archive Modified and Deleted Items" option.  Then, each run 
of CCC will create a new time-stamped folder at the top level of the 
backup volume.  In there, will be all the old data ... IOW, it 
becomes your incremental/daily from "yesterday".  The volume itself 
is updated to match the source, so it is "today".

>  > If the above makes sense, going further into dreamland, I could get a
>>  dual-drive system set up in RAID 1.  One example:  at Other World
>>  Computing which works with FW and USB-2.
>  > http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/usb/raid_1/Gmax

RAID is expensive.  Use RAID to improve the performance of your live system.

Use normal volumes to do your backups - that you can disconnect, etc.

RAID boxes tend to be fragile.  In a normal user environment, it 
seems like they fail too often.  So I don't recommend them for 
backups.

>  > Another example is the more expensive Drobo, which has more industrial
>>  weight expansion, including the gigabit NAS option with DroboShare
>  > that I could play with later.

Now you're into the NAS scenario, so you have to limit what you can 
do with CCC.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning

[Charles Davis]

On Nov 9, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Al wrote:

>
> To recap the storage requirement, our needs are modest, no massive
> photo or video files.  Our most valuable data is in genealogy and
> narrative files which do not take much space.  The iMac is holding
> about 40 GB on the hard drive; the other machines, less.
>
> On Nov 8, 11:13 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> At 7:03 AM -0800 11/8/2008, Al wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 7, 11:11 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
  The nature of the backup is such that you need lower level access
  than AFP provides.  CCC supports this by creating an encrypted  
 tunnel
  between the two Macs then running on each.  I haven't tested it  
 yet
  but am planning to.  Check the CCC docs for details.  (This is  
 what
  Bill is talking about re Credentials in his reply).
>>
>> That means the thing CCC creates on the NAS volume is NOT bootable.
>> It is a virtual disk image file (dmg) that can be used at a later
>> time to create a bootable volume.  This is because to access the
>> volume on the NAS, CCC must use AFP - which brings us back to the
>> original AFP problem.
>
> So, these two, separate replies mean that I may be able to do
> everything I want with CCC going to one FireWire or bootable USB-2
> external drive.  That is:
>
> (1) Set up a partition for each of four Macs with ethernet to make
> bootable clones of all internal hard drives, taking entire contents.
> (2) Set up space(s) for the Users folder of each internal hard drive
> to take incremental, maybe daily, backups.  A question here is whether
> I need four more partitions, or can I use one partition with four
> distinct target folders, one folder for each Mac?

I'm certain that individual partitions for each system will work.

Can't see any advantage in trying the 'all in one partition' method.

JMHO

> (3) One more partition to play with Time Machine until Apple fixes its
> problems, and maybe I would replace the use of CCC in #(2) above.

Probably O.K. BUT Time Machine IS NOT A BACKUP STRATEGY.
Its useful in day to day recovery of semi-current 'missing data'

BACKUPS need to be completely separable from the 'in use' system, and  
capable of being archived (stored) "Off-Site", to be usable AS BACKUPs.

[Backup being the necessary information to 'get back to a usable  
operation' in case of DISASTER.]


>>
>>> What other backups would I need?
>>
>> Well, it's always a good idea to have multiple backups.

My recommendation has always been at least 3 sets of 'backup media  
(floppies, tape cartridges, external hard disks, etc.)'
Rotating the sets each time you do a Backup.

[Reason being   Disaster happens.
Obtain replacement hardware, restore from most recent BU  Bad  
backup --- diagnose problem, reach for backup #2, ---
Still No Joy, (restoration method problems) -- BU damaged. reach for  
BU #3 --- STOP, at this point, find someone, (friend, Data Service,  
whatever) to make copies of the 'still untouched BU#3--- Then work  
with the copy. If you are still not having success, you can get  
another copy of BU#3, and try another method.

Yeah, paranoia does have it's uses at times.


>>  What happens
>> if you have a failure WHILE you're running the backup?  At that
>> point, you can end up with NO backup!
>
> We can continue making CDs and DVDs of Users folders to store at my
> son's house.
Good program --- don't let yourself stop this, just because it isn't  
all that convenient.
>
> If the above makes sense, going further into dreamland, I could get a
> dual-drive system set up in RAID 1.  One example:  at Other World
> Computing which works with FW and USB-2.
> http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/usb/raid_1/Gmax
>
> Another example is the more expensive Drobo, which has more industrial
> weight expansion, including the gigabit NAS option with DroboShare
> that I could play with later.
>
> I don't think I need to use WiFi.  Why bother with that if the above
> thinking works?
>
> Lastly, is there any reason to consider SuperDuper instead of CCC?

I've been quite happy with SuperDuper! -- That having been said, I  
think that either SuperDuper! OR CCC will work for you.

Chuck D.
>
> Al Poulin
>
>

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Re: Cloning

[Al]

To recap the storage requirement, our needs are modest, no massive
photo or video files.  Our most valuable data is in genealogy and
narrative files which do not take much space.  The iMac is holding
about 40 GB on the hard drive; the other machines, less.

On Nov 8, 11:13 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 7:03 AM -0800 11/8/2008, Al wrote:
>
> >On Nov 7, 11:11 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >>  The nature of the backup is such that you need lower level access
> >>  than AFP provides.  CCC supports this by creating an encrypted tunnel
> >>  between the two Macs then running on each.  I haven't tested it yet
> >>  but am planning to.  Check the CCC docs for details.  (This is what
> >>  Bill is talking about re Credentials in his reply).
>
> That means the thing CCC creates on the NAS volume is NOT bootable.
> It is a virtual disk image file (dmg) that can be used at a later
> time to create a bootable volume.  This is because to access the
> volume on the NAS, CCC must use AFP - which brings us back to the
> original AFP problem.

So, these two, separate replies mean that I may be able to do
everything I want with CCC going to one FireWire or bootable USB-2
external drive.  That is:

(1) Set up a partition for each of four Macs with ethernet to make
bootable clones of all internal hard drives, taking entire contents.
(2) Set up space(s) for the Users folder of each internal hard drive
to take incremental, maybe daily, backups.  A question here is whether
I need four more partitions, or can I use one partition with four
distinct target folders, one folder for each Mac?
(3) One more partition to play with Time Machine until Apple fixes its
problems, and maybe I would replace the use of CCC in #(2) above.
>
> >What other backups would I need?
>
> Well, it's always a good idea to have multiple backups.  What happens
> if you have a failure WHILE you're running the backup?  At that
> point, you can end up with NO backup!

We can continue making CDs and DVDs of Users folders to store at my
son's house.

If the above makes sense, going further into dreamland, I could get a
dual-drive system set up in RAID 1.  One example:  at Other World
Computing which works with FW and USB-2.
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/usb/raid_1/Gmax

Another example is the more expensive Drobo, which has more industrial
weight expansion, including the gigabit NAS option with DroboShare
that I could play with later.

I don't think I need to use WiFi.  Why bother with that if the above
thinking works?

Lastly, is there any reason to consider SuperDuper instead of CCC?

Al Poulin




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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 7:03 AM -0800 11/8/2008, Al wrote:
>On Nov 7, 11:11 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>  The nature of the backup is such that you need lower level access
>>  than AFP provides.  CCC supports this by creating an encrypted tunnel
>>  between the two Macs then running on each.  I haven't tested it yet
>>  but am planning to.  Check the CCC docs for details.  (This is what
>>  Bill is talking about re Credentials in his reply).
>
>I googled "AFP"  and I see "Apple Filing Protocol."  Does this mean
>CCC does not involve sharing?

Depends on how you define "sharing".  In this scenario - backing up a 
volume from one Mac to another Mac over a network, CCC does not use 
AFP (reasons above).  But it still has to move the data...

>  > Having them run to a NAS ... means they're speed limited by the network.

Now we're talking about backing up a volume on a Mac to a NAS device 
- not another Mac.

from CCC's doc: "CCC does not currently support backing up directly 
to an AFP, NFS, or SMB network share. You can back up to a disk image 
on these types of volumes, but a volume to volume clone is not 
permitted (or technically feasible) to network shares."

That means the thing CCC creates on the NAS volume is NOT bootable. 
It is a virtual disk image file (dmg) that can be used at a later 
time to create a bootable volume.  This is because to access the 
volume on the NAS, CCC must use AFP - which brings us back to the 
original AFP problem.

That's not necessarily bad.  It just means some rethinking as to how 
to handle the backups.

>Not so bad, right?  As long as I do not use WiFi, and with gigabit
>ethernet on all machines and switches except for one iBook G4?  This
>can be better than, or as good as USB 2 for typical real world
>throughput?  This I see in "Exploring Time Capsule: theoretical speed
>vs practical throughput"
>
>http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/28/exploring_time_capsule_theoretical_speed_vs_practical_throughput.html

Great article!  Looks like the performance over gigE or 11n isn't too 
bad.  If your network is also used for regular 'net surfing and such, 
that would slow things down more.

Gotta read up more on TC.  I'm wondering how much performance suffers 
when you're pushing the data to the shared drive hard *and* doing 
'net stuff.  Many WAPs really slow down when you have a lot of NAT 
connections going.  And this is that plus file sharing.

>  > And that drive is running all the time - so you'll need to make 
>other backups too.
>
>Is this always the case?  I thought that some external hard drive 
>models spin down when there is no reading/writing.  I seem to 
>remember seeing complaints in these lists that response to demand 
>for access is therefore not immediate.

If the drive is ONLY used for backups, then it should be spun down 
while not in use.  But it IS connected, so it can be spun up and/or 
hit with power surges at any time.

>What other backups would I need?

Well, it's always a good idea to have multiple backups.  What happens 
if you have a failure WHILE you're running the backup?  At that 
point, you can end up with NO backup!

At home, I keep two backups.  The "primary" is on a LaCie external 
drive that gets updated daily (incremental) and monthly (full). 
Except when being used, it is totally unplugged.  My "secondary", 
right now, is burned DVDs.  Not bootable, just my user data, made 
with Finder drags.  I give them to a friend for remote off-site sock 
drawer storage.

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: Cloning

[Al]

Thank you Dan, this brings me a lot closer to a decision.

On Nov 7, 11:11 am, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The nature of the backup is such that you need lower level access
> than AFP provides.  CCC supports this by creating an encrypted tunnel
> between the two Macs then running on each.  I haven't tested it yet
> but am planning to.  Check the CCC docs for details.  (This is what
> Bill is talking about re Credentials in his reply).

I googled "AFP"  and I see "Apple Filing Protocol."  Does this mean
CCC does not involve sharing?
>
> After you do OS and app updates on the master Mac, update the system
> areas of the backup.  ...   (Bruce is smiling as he pops aspirin)
> This method works well because it makes efficient use of the backup
> storage.  But it requires that the Macs be managed properly and
> things be thought out carefully.  Great potential to make a mess.

No sale.  Bruce can relax!

> Having them run to a NAS ... means they're speed limited by the
> network.

Not so bad, right?  As long as I do not use WiFi, and with gigabit
ethernet on all machines and switches except for one iBook G4?  This
can be better than, or as good as USB 2 for typical real world
throughput?  This I see in "Exploring Time Capsule: theoretical speed
vs practical throughput"
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/28/exploring_time_capsule_theoretical_speed_vs_practical_throughput.html

> And that drive is running all the time - so you'll need to make other backups 
> too.
>
Is this always the case?  I thought that some external hard drive
models spin down when there is no reading/writing.  I seem to remember
seeing complaints in these lists that response to demand for access is
therefore not immediate.

What other backups would I need?

Thanks again,
Al Poulin


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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 5:00 PM -0800 11/6/2008, Al wrote:
>
>Might this work using an external FireWire or USB hard drive on one
>Mac, and can two or three other Macs reach that hard drive via
>ethernet and sharing?  Or does this whole idea break down by having
>Public folders or Drop Boxes in the way?  If it works, would I have
>the options of backing up the networked Macs either on demand or upon
>shutting down?

The nature of the backup is such that you need lower level access 
than AFP provides.  CCC supports this by creating an encrypted tunnel 
between the two Macs then running on each.  I haven't tested it yet 
but am planning to.  Check the CCC docs for details.  (This is what 
Bill is talking about re Credentials in his reply).

>I assume that each Mac would need its own, dedicated backup partition
>on that external storage, and that it would be bootable.

Yes, if each Mac was a wholly unique entity - managed separately.

But...  Consider... If all your Macs run the same OS and their user 
databases were the same (so users had the non-conflicting UID and 
GID), then you could use only one partition...  Coordinate the 
backups:  Use Mac A as "the master" - to initially populate the 
clone, both system and /User directories.  From then on, only update 
the backup with the individual user directories from the other Macs. 
After you do OS and app updates on the master Mac, update the system 
areas of the backup.  ...   (Bruce is smiling as he pops aspirin) 
This method works well because it makes efficient use of the backup 
storage.  But it requires that the Macs be managed properly and 
things be thought out carefully.  Great potential to make a mess.

>Would it be feasible, or better even, to use Network-attached 
>Storage (NAS) with CCC?  I understand that NAS can work via ethernet 
>and Wi-Fi.

It would work but I donno about "better".  Personally, I like my 
backups to Get Done, so I can reach over and disconnect that drive. 
Having them run to a NAS ... means they're speed limited by the 
network.  And that drive is running all the time - so you'll need to 
make other backups too.

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: Cloning problem

[Dan]

At 3:38 AM -0800 11/7/2008, yawg wrote:

Please remember to BOTTOM post and TRIM on these LEM lists.
It makes tracking support issues MUCH easier.

>I know about aliases, have been working with Macs for 18 years. The 
>question marks aside the  apps themselves don't work when I open 
>them in ther real folders.

Ok.  I'm pre-coffee... so...  18 years huh?   Then why didn't you 
bother to say that the apps themselves don't work  That does 
kindof change the WHOLE nature of the issue... 

>My disks seem to be fine.

Except that you have fatal i/o error on the source and your 
destination is obviously corrupted, since apps aren't working right.

>What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
>busy when being cloned?

No, not busy.

It means rsync tried to read the data from the HD and it FAILED.  The 
hard drive refused to provide the data because of a FATAL error. 
Either the hard drive had a controller problem or the the data blocks 
involved have become unreadable.  Further details might be available 
in your system log.

>Can I just look up the BootX file on an installer CD and replace the
>flaky one with that?

IFF (If and ONLY if) it's just those files or directories involved, 
then yes.  BUT given your other issues, I'm wondering what else has 
died on that drive.

I'm thinking you need to find out how bad the problem is.  It may be 
that your source drive is dying.  It may be that the media just grew 
a few bad blocks.  You need to get your user data backed up, check 
the log files, then repave that whole drive (all its volumes).  Erase 
/ Zero it, at least two passes, to make sure all the bad blocks get 
mapped out.  Check the logs to make sure there were no fatal 
controller errors.  If none, then it might be safe to reload it from 
scratch.

...If the backups you have are block-level clones, then you might not 
be able to trust them!  A perfect copy of corrupted data is itself 
corrupted...

HTH,
- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the advice. I know about aliases, have been working with
Macs for 18 years. The question marks aside the  apps themselves don't
work when I open them in ther real folders.

My disks seem to be fine. Sorry I couldn't learn anything new this
time. What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
busy when being cloned?

Can I just look up the BootX file on an installer CD and replace the
flaky one with that?

Regards, Jörg.

On Nov 6, 9:02 pm, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:02 AM -0800 11/6/2008, yawg wrote:
>
>
>
> >Every time I try to clone my Panther Partition to a partition on
> >another disk I get the same error and CCC is telling me:
>
> >System/Library/CoreServices/BootX:Input/Output error
>
> One or more files in that directory or the directory itself, on your
> source, are corrupted.
>
> >Can I just ignore the error or can it cause problems when I'm using
> >the "error"-clone? What gives?
>
> You need to fix it.  Either archive and reinstall the OS or you can
> try deleting that directory and restoring it from other source.
> Might also want to consider WHY they got corrupted - could be your HD
> has grown some bad blocks.  If that's the case, then you need to
> repave or replace it.
>
> >I have a Tiger partition too from which I start and then use the new
> >CCC to do the Panther clone, it's very fast but I read here that the
> >block clone has its disadvantages as the partition won't be optimized.
>
> More importantly a block-level clone does not create a clean file system.
>
> >Anyway I still prefer Panther as all my Classic apps still work, quite
> >a few don't work under Tiger and show up in the dock as question
> >marks.
>
> Items in the dock are just aliases.  If they're showing up as
> question marks, re-drag them in.
>
> >Also I can't find the option in the new CCC where I can decide if I
> >want a file to file clone done or a block clone.
>
> Full backup is block-level.  Incremental is file-level.
>
> - Dan.
> --
> - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth
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Re: Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the advice. I know about aliases, have been working with
Macs for 18 years. The question marks aside the  apps themselves don't
work when I open them in ther real folders.

My disks seem to be fine. Sorry I couldn't learn anything new this
time. What does input/output error actually mean? That the file is
busy when being cloned?

Can I just look up the BootX file on an installer CD and replace the
flaky one with that?

Regards, Jörg.

On Nov 6, 9:02 pm, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:02 AM -0800 11/6/2008, yawg wrote:
>
>
>
> >Every time I try to clone my Panther Partition to a partition on
> >another disk I get the same error and CCC is telling me:
>
> >System/Library/CoreServices/BootX:Input/Output error
>
> One or more files in that directory or the directory itself, on your
> source, are corrupted.
>
> >Can I just ignore the error or can it cause problems when I'm using
> >the "error"-clone? What gives?
>
> You need to fix it.  Either archive and reinstall the OS or you can
> try deleting that directory and restoring it from other source.
> Might also want to consider WHY they got corrupted - could be your HD
> has grown some bad blocks.  If that's the case, then you need to
> repave or replace it.
>
> >I have a Tiger partition too from which I start and then use the new
> >CCC to do the Panther clone, it's very fast but I read here that the
> >block clone has its disadvantages as the partition won't be optimized.
>
> More importantly a block-level clone does not create a clean file system.
>
> >Anyway I still prefer Panther as all my Classic apps still work, quite
> >a few don't work under Tiger and show up in the dock as question
> >marks.
>
> Items in the dock are just aliases.  If they're showing up as
> question marks, re-drag them in.
>
> >Also I can't find the option in the new CCC where I can decide if I
> >want a file to file clone done or a block clone.
>
> Full backup is block-level.  Incremental is file-level.
>
> - Dan.
> --
> - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth
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Re: Cloning

[PeterH]

On Nov 6, 2008, at 5:16 PM, insightinmind wrote:

> The QS is connected by a slow USB connected Airlink wireless bar,
> with an iffy Zydas driver.

The 4.5.70 driver has been flawless at my site ... over both laptops  
and desktops.



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Re: Cloning

[insightinmind]

>
> I assume that each Mac would need its own, dedicated backup partition
> on that external storage, and that it would be bootable.
>
> Would it be feasible, or better even, to use Network-attached Storage
> (NAS) with CCC?  I understand that NAS can work via ethernet and Wi-
> Fi.  My wife prefers to go Wi-Fi for her MacBook with something like
> Time Capsule.  But using the expensive Time Capsule excludes CCC and
> means I'd still need one or more additional external drive(s) to get
> bootable clones of the several Macintoshes' hard drives.
>
> Using Leopard OS X 10.5.2 or later on all machines, and all have
> Airport.

I tried to use CCC 3.1.2 across my home network between a PCI  
Graphics Yikes! running Tiger 10.4.11, and my QS 2002 Dual 1GHz  
running Leopard 10.5.5 and hosting the external backup FW drive. I  
did the initial backup off the Yikes! connecting the FW drive directly.

The QS is connected by a slow USB connected Airlink wireless bar,  
with an iffy Zydas driver.

It should be working, but the connection gets dropped along the  
network transfer. I perhaps need a USB 2 card for my QS, so the  
Airlink can reach 54Mb in lieu of 11Mb (forgetting the units?). My  
Yikes! is connected at 100Mb.

CCC 3.1.2 has a good description of how to make the link using  
Authentication Credentials on each computer, and it wasn't too hard  
to follow ... when I wasn't tired.

I'm backing up Tiger, APPS, DOCS and Classic partitions ... one at a  
time from my Yikes! to the QS attached FW drive (or want to when  
things get worked out).

The QS's external FW drive (a 750GB Seagate) also has a partition for  
Time Machine's backup of the QS, skipping the partitions for the  
Yikes! backup partitions.

Nice idea if I could get the Westell 327W to stop dropping the  
connection, part way through the CCC 3.1.2 update ...

Bill Connelly
artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: Cloning

[Al]

On Nov 6, 12:40 pm, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Forget TM.  It's not ripe yet.
>
> Use CCC.  The new version is very nice.  You tell it what folders to
> copy and it does it.  As an incremental backup, If you check the
> "archive modified and deleted items" box, then instead of deleting
> the stale data on the backup, it moves 'em into a time-stamped
> folder.  This is the equivalent of TM's history but without the
> pretty interface (you just poke in with Finder to get older stuff you
> need).
>
> eg:  With CCC, I cloned my whole boot volume to my external.  And now
> I've told CCC to backup /Users/dan every day at 4pm, incremental,
> archive.  Each afternoon it yammers at me to plug in the external.  I
> do, it does, it dismounts, it's done.  I could have set that up to
> backup only /Users/dan/stuff or any other level, or even multiple
> folders.  Can even schedule multiple tasks, etc.
>

Might this work using an external FireWire or USB hard drive on one
Mac, and can two or three other Macs reach that hard drive via
ethernet and sharing?  Or does this whole idea break down by having
Public folders or Drop Boxes in the way?  If it works, would I have
the options of backing up the networked Macs either on demand or upon
shutting down?

I assume that each Mac would need its own, dedicated backup partition
on that external storage, and that it would be bootable.

Would it be feasible, or better even, to use Network-attached Storage
(NAS) with CCC?  I understand that NAS can work via ethernet and Wi-
Fi.  My wife prefers to go Wi-Fi for her MacBook with something like
Time Capsule.  But using the expensive Time Capsule excludes CCC and
means I'd still need one or more additional external drive(s) to get
bootable clones of the several Macintoshes' hard drives.

Using Leopard OS X 10.5.2 or later on all machines, and all have
Airport.

Many Thanks,
Al Poulin



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Re: Cloning

[Anne Keller-Smith]

Have to buy a bootable external hard drive, though, right?

This sounds like a good plan ~ just don't have a bootable drive yet.

On Wednesday, November 5, 2008, at 09:15  AM, dc wrote:

>
> Use a cloning utility like arbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper and you
> will have a bootable system with all your files intact. If your Macs
> hard drive fails you can simply swap the drive from your external
> enclosure.
>
> On Nov 4, 10:00 pm, Anne Keller-Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi all ~
>>
>> Been using a Maxtor and a Fantom hard drive to back up files. These  
>> are
>> not bootable, so I have always assumed in case of a major OS
>> malfunction I would lose much of my user configuration, but what the
>> hey. Retrospect does a good job backing up what's new and changed. My
>> question is, if I just dragged files to the hard drive (I actually do
>> this to make my own archives, old files are loaded onto both drives  
>> and
>> then deleted from my computer) am I going to have permissions  
>> problems?
>> I haven't had any so far.
>>
>> What are the issues here?
>>
>> Was considering Time Machine but my brain balked at the $300 price  
>> tag.
>> Got the Airport Express Extreme though on account I wanted to network
>> the G4 with the new iMac in order to get both on my cable modem. (G4
>> did not have a wireless card it turns out).
>>
>> Anne Keller Smith
>> Down to Earth Creations
>> Jewelry that Sings to Your  
>> Spirithttp://www.downtoearthcreations.comhttp:// 
>> www.downtoearthcreations.etsy.comhttp:// 
>> www.downtoearthcreations.blogspot.com
> >
>
>

Anne Keller Smith
Down to Earth Creations
Jewelry that Sings to Your Spirit
http://www.downtoearthcreations.com
http://www.downtoearthcreations.etsy.com
http://www.downtoearthcreations.blogspot.com


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Re: Cloning problem

[Dan]

At 10:02 AM -0800 11/6/2008, yawg wrote:
>
>Every time I try to clone my Panther Partition to a partition on
>another disk I get the same error and CCC is telling me:
>
>System/Library/CoreServices/BootX:Input/Output error

One or more files in that directory or the directory itself, on your 
source, are corrupted.

>Can I just ignore the error or can it cause problems when I'm using
>the "error"-clone? What gives?

You need to fix it.  Either archive and reinstall the OS or you can 
try deleting that directory and restoring it from other source. 
Might also want to consider WHY they got corrupted - could be your HD 
has grown some bad blocks.  If that's the case, then you need to 
repave or replace it.

>I have a Tiger partition too from which I start and then use the new
>CCC to do the Panther clone, it's very fast but I read here that the
>block clone has its disadvantages as the partition won't be optimized.

More importantly a block-level clone does not create a clean file system.

>Anyway I still prefer Panther as all my Classic apps still work, quite
>a few don't work under Tiger and show up in the dock as question
>marks.

Items in the dock are just aliases.  If they're showing up as 
question marks, re-drag them in.

>Also I can't find the option in the new CCC where I can decide if I
>want a file to file clone done or a block clone.

Full backup is block-level.  Incremental is file-level.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning problem

[dc]

You could try a different program:
http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescription.html
Make sure to download the version that matches your OS.
The question marks in the dock may simply mean that the alias is
looking for the source program you cloned from. Try to right-click on
the ? and reset teh dock icon to the proper target, or remove the ?
from the dock and drag in the icon from the program on the cloned OS.

On Nov 6, 1:02 pm, yawg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Every time I try to clone my Panther Partition to a partition on
> another disk I get the same error and CCC is telling me:
>
> System/Library/CoreServices/BootX:Input/Output error
>
> Can I just ignore the error or can it cause problems when I'm using
> the "error"-clone?
> What gives?
>
> I have a Tiger partition too from which I start and then use the new
> CCC to do the Panther clone, it's very fast but I read here that the
> block clone has its disadvantages as the partition won't be optimized.
>
> Anyway I still prefer Panther as all my Classic apps still work, quite
> a few don't work under Tiger and show up in the dock as question
> marks.
>
> Also I can't find the option in the new CCC where I can decide if I
> want a file to file clone done or a block clone.
>
> I have a MDD 1.25 GHz, the latest model MDD that was produced and run
> the latest versions of both Tiger and Panther.
>
> I've been using CCC for years now with almost no problems. When
> cloning in Panther I don't use the computer at all, cloning in Tiger
> is done in the background as it is a block clone anyway from one
> harddisk to another. I have four internal harddisks.
>
> All hints are highly appreciated as always. TIA,
>
> Jörg.
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Cloning problem

[yawg]

Hi,

Every time I try to clone my Panther Partition to a partition on
another disk I get the same error and CCC is telling me:

System/Library/CoreServices/BootX:Input/Output error

Can I just ignore the error or can it cause problems when I'm using
the "error"-clone?
What gives?

I have a Tiger partition too from which I start and then use the new
CCC to do the Panther clone, it's very fast but I read here that the
block clone has its disadvantages as the partition won't be optimized.

Anyway I still prefer Panther as all my Classic apps still work, quite
a few don't work under Tiger and show up in the dock as question
marks.

Also I can't find the option in the new CCC where I can decide if I
want a file to file clone done or a block clone.

I have a MDD 1.25 GHz, the latest model MDD that was produced and run
the latest versions of both Tiger and Panther.

I've been using CCC for years now with almost no problems. When
cloning in Panther I don't use the computer at all, cloning in Tiger
is done in the background as it is a block clone anyway from one
harddisk to another. I have four internal harddisks.

All hints are highly appreciated as always. TIA,

Jörg.
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Re: Cloning

[Dan]

At 10:00 PM -0500 11/4/2008, Anne Keller-Smith wrote:
>
>if I just dragged files to the hard drive am I going to have 
>permissions problems?

No, because Finder won't work with things you don't own or already 
have access to.

However... If you're dragging around some apps, or things outside of 
your user folder, then there could be problems.

>What are the issues here?

Finder drags creates "new" files, with inherited ownerships and 
permissions.  That's ok for 99% of user data, if you don't mind 
loosing dates etc.  But once in a while you'll bang up against an app 
that gives you grief - so it will require a reinstall (if you've 
installed it in your user tree).

>Was considering Time Machine but my brain balked at the $300 price tag.

Forget TM.  It's not ripe yet.

Use CCC.  The new version is very nice.  You tell it what folders to 
copy and it does it.  As an incremental backup, If you check the 
"archive modified and deleted items" box, then instead of deleting 
the stale data on the backup, it moves 'em into a time-stamped 
folder.  This is the equivalent of TM's history but without the 
pretty interface (you just poke in with Finder to get older stuff you 
need).

eg:  With CCC, I cloned my whole boot volume to my external.  And now 
I've told CCC to backup /Users/dan every day at 4pm, incremental, 
archive.  Each afternoon it yammers at me to plug in the external.  I 
do, it does, it dismounts, it's done.  I could have set that up to 
backup only /Users/dan/stuff or any other level, or even multiple 
folders.  Can even schedule multiple tasks, etc.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Cloning

[insightinmind]

On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:15 AM, dc wrote:

>
> Use a cloning utility like arbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper and you
> will have a bootable system with all your files intact. If your Macs
> hard drive fails you can simply swap the drive from your external
> enclosure.

I believe you could also startup from the install CD, and run CCC  
from a place on your external drive, and clone the system or other,  
from the external onto a new internal drive.

Bill Connelly
artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: Cloning

[dc]

Use a cloning utility like arbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper and you
will have a bootable system with all your files intact. If your Macs
hard drive fails you can simply swap the drive from your external
enclosure.

On Nov 4, 10:00 pm, Anne Keller-Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all ~
>
> Been using a Maxtor and a Fantom hard drive to back up files. These are
> not bootable, so I have always assumed in case of a major OS
> malfunction I would lose much of my user configuration, but what the
> hey. Retrospect does a good job backing up what's new and changed. My
> question is, if I just dragged files to the hard drive (I actually do
> this to make my own archives, old files are loaded onto both drives and
> then deleted from my computer) am I going to have permissions problems?
> I haven't had any so far.
>
> What are the issues here?
>
> Was considering Time Machine but my brain balked at the $300 price tag.
> Got the Airport Express Extreme though on account I wanted to network
> the G4 with the new iMac in order to get both on my cable modem. (G4
> did not have a wireless card it turns out).
>
> Anne Keller Smith
> Down to Earth Creations
> Jewelry that Sings to Your 
> Spirithttp://www.downtoearthcreations.comhttp://www.downtoearthcreations.etsy.comhttp://www.downtoearthcreations.blogspot.com
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Re: Cloning

[Fabian Fang]

On Nov 4, 2008, at 7:00 PM, Anne Keller-Smith wrote:

> Was considering Time Machine but my brain balked at the $300 price  
> tag.


You do not have to spend $300 to take advantage of Time Machine back- 
up under Leopard.  Any appropriate external drive can be used.  You  
may be thinking of Apple's Time Capsule, which is not required for  
Time Machine.

Fabian

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Cloning

[Anne Keller-Smith]

Hi all ~

Been using a Maxtor and a Fantom hard drive to back up files. These are 
not bootable, so I have always assumed in case of a major OS 
malfunction I would lose much of my user configuration, but what the 
hey. Retrospect does a good job backing up what's new and changed. My 
question is, if I just dragged files to the hard drive (I actually do 
this to make my own archives, old files are loaded onto both drives and 
then deleted from my computer) am I going to have permissions problems? 
I haven't had any so far.

What are the issues here?

Was considering Time Machine but my brain balked at the $300 price tag. 
Got the Airport Express Extreme though on account I wanted to network 
the G4 with the new iMac in order to get both on my cable modem. (G4 
did not have a wireless card it turns out).

Anne Keller Smith
Down to Earth Creations
Jewelry that Sings to Your Spirit
http://www.downtoearthcreations.com
http://www.downtoearthcreations.etsy.com
http://www.downtoearthcreations.blogspot.com


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