[Gendergap] Nuremberg: lesbian wikipedia edit-a-thon workshop Re: So what have you been working on lately article wise as a woman or about women?

[koltzenburg]

Hi Sarah, hi @all, 

thank you, Sarah, for this new thread
and thank you for sharing your activitities with us, I particularly like the 
teahouse :-)

> What about you? Online and offline activities, I'd love to hear about 
> how you've being proactive and what you're working on!

at the annual meeting that picks up a 1920s Berlin tradition of lesbians who 
meet over the extended 
weekend of Whitsuntide, we met in Nuremberg (city of human rights) this year 
for another fabulous self-
organized non-commercial bunch of worshops, plenary sessions, cultural 
programme and a manifestation in 
downtown Nuremberg - and all of this in 90% barrier-free arrangements, one of 
the acknowledged hallmarks 
of this meeting, called "LFT" (Lesben-Fruehlings-Treffen, lesbian spring 
meetings)

for the first time, a Wikipedia workshop was held (initiated by me and 
spontaneously co-moderated by a 
visually-impaired translesbian colleague), with 8 participants

after a highly relevant introduction to Wikipedia from the point of view of a 
visually-impaired person and 
web expert, we did an edit-a-thon on the article about the meeting :-)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesben-Frühlings-Treffen
and I guess everyone is joining in again at next year's meeting in Munich where 
we will also deal with 
unconditional openness vs. realism (e.g. encrypting your emails) in the face of 
rising fascist activities in many 
computer science departments and more generally in neighbouring countries like 
Hungary and Russia where 
state-driven homo- and transphobia is rising dramatically and Roma people face 
no less than a genocide (in 
Hungary that is currently under a government that I call fascist, I visited 
Budapest again and met activist 
friends there just 10 days ago). 

for a short round-up of what "Lesbenfruehling" meetings are doing to promote 
transparency 
and openness also in other respects: 
the meeting also included a panel discussion on the current situation for 
lesbians in neighbouring countries 
like Croatia (to be joining the EU in July 2013), Poland (EU member since 
2004), Hungary (EU member since 
2007) and Russia (member country of the Council of Europe http://www.coe.int/ 
that is human rights-
related), with Poland clearly on the upside, Croatia almost, and Russia and 
Hungary on servere downsides, 
with Russian regional parliaments having introduced explicitly homo- and 
transphobic bills that we are 
fighting against in international solidarity. By way of an example, our panel 
speakers from Croatia belong to 
the team who form the lesbian feminist mixed choir "Le Zbor" (www.lezbor.com) 
and the last song of their 
evening programme was from Russia and sung in Russian. We also had workshops 
dedicated more 
specifically to the situation in Russia and Hungary and in Germany, e.g. on an 
initiative to finally put up a 
specifically lesbian memorial stone on the site of the former concentration 
camp Ravensbrueck that was 
women only. At the downtown rally we read out the names of known lesbian 
individuals that died because 
of persecution during the Nazi regime (i.e. those who could not or did not want 
to leave the country early 
enough in those years). 

this is just to give you an example of how LFT meetings work on a culture of 
openness that I think is close to 
what Wikipedia is aiming at, too,

thank you for reading this & cheers from contemporary Germany,
Claudia
koltzenb...@w4w.net

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Re: [Gendergap] So what have you been working on lately article wise as a woman or about women?

[Sarah Stierch]

Awesome work Laura. We need to create a "Laura Hale Awesome Woman in 
Sports" award, as you surely must be the most prolific in that arena 
ever on Wikipedia in any language!


Thanks for all you're doing to improve women's sports representation on 
Wikipedia - even the challenging content!


-Sarah

On 5/31/12 8:31 PM, Laura Hale wrote:



On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Sarah Stierch 
mailto:sarah.stie...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I thought it'd be refreshing to have a positive thread and
something less-...porny, if you will :)

*What have /you/ been working on? In any language, on any sister
project of Wikimedia? Online and offline? What are you doing to be
proactive or contributing as a volunteer, fellow, staff member,
etc? Don't be shy, share your work! Be bold and be proud*!


What about you? Online and offline activities, I'd love to hear
about how you've being proactive and what you're working on!


In mid-May, I got the opportunity to attend the Australia women's 
national basketball team training camp, where myself and two Commons 
photographers got to take pictures.  We published two Wikinews stories 
about this: 
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Raw_Opals_spend_week_preparing_for_London_Games 
and 
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Australian_media_focuses_on_Olympic_prospects_against_US_for_women%27s_basketball 
.


In preparation for this, before, during and after, we improved 
articles related to the players.  Thus far the following have appeared 
as DYKs:

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jackson
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Poto
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Hurst
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyse_Penaluna

I've nominated three articles about these women for DYK in the past 24 
hours.


Beyond basketball, I rescued 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_kickboxing_in_Australia from 
deletion.  The article talks about illegality of women's participation 
in a sport and the involvement of a minority group in Australia in the 
sport.


I've slowly been working on creating wanted articles about women's 
national football teams.  In the past two months, I have taken four of 
the articles about women's football teams in Africa to GA.  There are 
now more GAs about women's teams than men's teams in Africa.  Several 
of these articles have appeared at DYK recently including 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Antilles_women%27s_national_football_team 
, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anguilla_women%27s_national_football_team 
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambia_women%27s_national_football_team .


Today, I also wrote 
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Australia_women's_water_polo_team_into_FINA_Women's_World_League_Super_Finals_quarter_finals 
 
for Wikinews, which I have submitted for publication.


Should be having a meeting next week to discuss with some one in the 
Australian government about women's sport and Wikipedia.




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blog: ozziesport.com 



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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Kim Osman  wrote:

> > Hi,
> >
> > I edit Wikipedia a lot.  I probably spend more time than I should editing
> > Wikipedia.  Can I ask where there is a prevalence of pornography on
> > Wikipedia?  I honestly can't think of a single time I have come across it
> > when I wasn't directly looking for it.  Misogny to a degree, yes.
> > Discrimination against women's topics and topics outside the United
> States,
> > youbetcha.  But pornography?  Maybe I just don't edit articles where
> > pornography is very prevalent?
> >
>
> Hi Laura,
>
> I totally agree with you - I have never come across anything remotely
> offensive in the course of editing or browsing. What I was trying to say is
> that rather than being a reason more females don't edit Wikipedia (and
> perhaps here my use of the word prevalence was wrong) the presence of
> certain types of pornography on Wikipedia contributes to the culture which
> results in the instances of misogny and discrimination you note. So I do
> see the editorial decisions made around the type of content Larry Sanger
> referenced as being part of a wider conversation about female participation.
>
> Cheers, Kim




That, in a nutshell, was the point I was making.

Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Laura Hale]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Béria Lima  wrote:

> * I suggest to you that distilling the gendergap issue down to "pro-porn
>> culture"  when participants in the WikiWomen camp don't even rate this
>> issue in its top 10, and the majority of women participating in discussion
>> over the last few days are saying that it might be an issue but it's not
>> the big issue, is pretty much a classic example of shouting over the voices
>> of women who disagree with your focus.
>> *
>
>
> +1
>
> And for what its worth, WWC girls have no problem discussing sex, porn or
> male genitalia (we did spend more than 20 min laughing about the lies that
> europeans tell in studies like the one who originate this:
> http://alphadesigner.com/blog/europe-according-penis-size/ (which clearly
> states that French and Hungarians like to tell big fat lies ;) ) and the
> people who can peform autocoitus. So isn't that big of a issue. (and the
> map also shows that :-D )
>

+2 .  I'd really like to blank those two pictures out of my brain forever.
Curiosity is an evil thing,  What session was that where we derailed it by
talking about those things?  Was it the methodology one?

Anyway, on our reasons why we felt women did not contribute,
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiWomenCamp_day_1_by_Laura_Hale_%2830%29.JPGwas
my group's mind map.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiWomenCamp_day_1_068.jpg was the
big group reasons.

Our group broadly categorised why women did not participate as: Personal,
Environmental, Community.  One group discussed low self esteem and lack of
confidence, cultural conditioning to not question authority in the same way
as another perspective.  There were discussions about how different groups
of women had different reasons why they did not participate.  A woman in a
rural area with less of an education is going to have different reasons for
non-participation than a highly educated woman in an urban setting.

At one point, we discussed why women edit and why we continue to edit
despite all the crap we have to deal with.  I think ultimately this boiled
down to the following:
1.  We are bossy and stubborn.
2.  We think what we're contributing matters and is important for a variety
of reasons.  (Almost none of which were "Knowledge should be free.")
3.  Some of us come from cultures with a built in expectation that we will
do work for free.

Lots of consensus that many of the issues as to why women do not contribute
could be overcome IF we could correctly tap into motivation.

Another view was if we word the negative reasons why women would
contribute, women come off badly.  Women would contribute if only the
interface was simple enough for them to use.

Sincerely,
Laura Hale

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Re: [Gendergap] So what have you been working on lately article wise as a woman or about women?

[Laura Hale]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

>  I thought it'd be refreshing to have a positive thread and something
> less-...porny, if you will :)
>
> *What have you been working on? In any language, on any sister project of
> Wikimedia? Online and offline? What are you doing to be proactive or
> contributing as a volunteer, fellow, staff member, etc? Don't be shy, share
> your work! Be bold and be proud*!
>
>
> What about you? Online and offline activities, I'd love to hear about how
> you've being proactive and what you're working on!
>

In mid-May, I got the opportunity to attend the Australia women's national
basketball team training camp, where myself and two Commons photographers
got to take pictures.  We published two Wikinews stories about this:
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Raw_Opals_spend_week_preparing_for_London_Gamesand
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Australian_media_focuses_on_Olympic_prospects_against_US_for_women%27s_basketball.

In preparation for this, before, during and after, we improved articles
related to the players.  Thus far the following have appeared as DYKs:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jackson
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Poto
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Hurst
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyse_Penaluna

I've nominated three articles about these women for DYK in the past 24
hours.

Beyond basketball, I rescued
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_kickboxing_in_Australia from
deletion.  The article talks about illegality of women's participation in a
sport and the involvement of a minority group in Australia in the sport.

I've slowly been working on creating wanted articles about women's national
football teams.  In the past two months, I have taken four of the articles
about women's football teams in Africa to GA.  There are now more GAs about
women's teams than men's teams in Africa.  Several of these articles have
appeared at DYK recently including
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Antilles_women%27s_national_football_team,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anguilla_women%27s_national_football_team and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambia_women%27s_national_football_team .

Today, I also wrote
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Australia_women's_water_polo_team_into_FINA_Women's_World_League_Super_Finals_quarter_finalsfor
Wikinews, which I have submitted for publication.

Should be having a meeting next week to discuss with some one in the
Australian government about women's sport and Wikipedia.



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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Béria Lima]

>
> * I suggest to you that distilling the gendergap issue down to "pro-porn
> culture"  when participants in the WikiWomen camp don't even rate this
> issue in its top 10, and the majority of women participating in discussion
> over the last few days are saying that it might be an issue but it's not
> the big issue, is pretty much a classic example of shouting over the voices
> of women who disagree with your focus.
> *


+1

And for what its worth, WWC girls have no problem discussing sex, porn or
male genitalia (we did spend more than 20 min laughing about the lies that
europeans tell in studies like the one who originate this:
http://alphadesigner.com/blog/europe-according-penis-size/ (which clearly
states that French and Hungarians like to tell big fat lies ;) ) and the
people who can peform autocoitus. So isn't that big of a issue. (and the
map also shows that :-D )
_
*Béria Lima*

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 31 May 2012 22:35, Risker  wrote:

>
>
> On 31 May 2012 21:07, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Risker  wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas - you seem to have the belief that the pervasive exposure to
>>> pornography is having an adverse effect on community dynamics, and in
>>> particular is having a negative impact on the recruitment of women
>>> editors.  Perhaps you might want to consider whether your pervasive
>>> discussions of pornography aren't having a similar effect.
>>>
>>> This is a great way to kill a thread, when twice in the last few hours,
>>> members of this forum have striven to redirect threads from the topic of
>>> pornography.
>>>
>>> Risker/Anne
>>
>>
>>
>>  Anne,
>>
>> It is not about pervasive exposure to pornography at all. We have
>> established – and all of us are in agreement on this point – that women
>> generally are very rarely exposed to it in Wikipedia, unless they seek it
>> out.
>>
>> The problem is that the male culture that likes its pornography out
>> there, and rails against any limitation of it, even a token one like an
>> opt-in filter, concomitantly ALSO happens to be sexist and unwelcoming to
>> women, which is again something at least the women here are largely agreed
>> on.
>>
>> Let's just leave it at that. Wikimedia has far and away the most
>> pro-porn, anti-censorship/anti-filtering policy of any top-10 website. It
>> also has the lowest female participation of all these 10 websites.
>>
>> I believe that it is appalling, and I believe that these two facts are
>> closely related: you are welcome to disagree.
>>
>>
>>
> I'm not disagreeing with you, Andreas. I'm saying that I'd really prefer
> not to find that just about every thread on the gendergap list wasn't
> discussing pornography in some way.  If you think the culture that
> pornography creates on the project is harmful and is directly related to
> the low participation of women on the project, then why do you feel it's a
> good thing to perpetuate it on this list by constantly discussing it? I
> suggest to you that distilling the gendergap issue down to "pro-porn
> culture"  when participants in the WikiWomen camp don't even rate this
> issue in its top 10, and the majority of women participating in discussion
> over the last few days are saying that it might be an issue but it's not
> the big issue, is pretty much a classic example of shouting over the voices
> of women who disagree with your focus.  Please think about that for a bit.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Nathan]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Risker  wrote:

>
>
> I'm not disagreeing with you, Andreas. I'm saying that I'd really prefer
> not to find that just about every thread on the gendergap list wasn't
> discussing pornography in some way.  If you think the culture that
> pornography creates on the project is harmful and is directly related to
> the low participation of women on the project, then why do you feel it's a
> good thing to perpetuate it on this list by constantly discussing it? I
> suggest to you that distilling the gendergap issue down to "pro-porn
> culture"  when participants in the WikiWomen camp don't even rate this
> issue in its top 10, and the majority of women participating in discussion
> over the last few days are saying that it might be an issue but it's not
> the big issue, is pretty much a classic example of shouting over the voices
> of women who disagree with your focus.  Please think about that for a bit.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> 
>


I agree with the desire to talk about something else for awhile, but for
what it's worth... It's been my observation that it's common, even
extremely common, for Wikimedia mailing lists (and mailing lists in
general) to fixate on a single or small number of topics for awhile before
moving on to something else. Let's not treat this as though weeks or months
of discussion had been sidetracked to pornography; it's been a few threads
for a few days, and these threads have drawn far more posts than the
typical topics on this list. It's also in the nature of e-mail that anyone
disinterested in the controversial nexus of Wikimedia and sexuality could
ignore these posts and reply to their hearts content on other topics.

Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Risker]

On 31 May 2012 21:07, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> Andreas - you seem to have the belief that the pervasive exposure to
>> pornography is having an adverse effect on community dynamics, and in
>> particular is having a negative impact on the recruitment of women
>> editors.  Perhaps you might want to consider whether your pervasive
>> discussions of pornography aren't having a similar effect.
>>
>> This is a great way to kill a thread, when twice in the last few hours,
>> members of this forum have striven to redirect threads from the topic of
>> pornography.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> Anne,
>
> It is not about pervasive exposure to pornography at all. We have
> established – and all of us are in agreement on this point – that women
> generally are very rarely exposed to it in Wikipedia, unless they seek it
> out.
>
> The problem is that the male culture that likes its pornography out there,
> and rails against any limitation of it, even a token one like an opt-in
> filter, concomitantly ALSO happens to be sexist and unwelcoming to women,
> which is again something at least the women here are largely agreed on.
>
> Let's just leave it at that. Wikimedia has far and away the most pro-porn,
> anti-censorship/anti-filtering policy of any top-10 website. It also has
> the lowest female participation of all these 10 websites.
>
> I believe that it is appalling, and I believe that these two facts are
> closely related: you are welcome to disagree.
>
>
>
I'm not disagreeing with you, Andreas. I'm saying that I'd really prefer
not to find that just about every thread on the gendergap list wasn't
discussing pornography in some way.  If you think the culture that
pornography creates on the project is harmful and is directly related to
the low participation of women on the project, then why do you feel it's a
good thing to perpetuate it on this list by constantly discussing it? I
suggest to you that distilling the gendergap issue down to "pro-porn
culture"  when participants in the WikiWomen camp don't even rate this
issue in its top 10, and the majority of women participating in discussion
over the last few days are saying that it might be an issue but it's not
the big issue, is pretty much a classic example of shouting over the voices
of women who disagree with your focus.  Please think about that for a bit.

Risker/Anne
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[Gendergap] So what have you been working on lately article wise as a woman or about women?

[Sarah Stierch]

I thought it'd be refreshing to have a positive thread and something 
less-...porny, if you will :)


*What have /you/ been working on? In any language, on any sister project 
of Wikimedia? Online and offline? What are you doing to be proactive or 
contributing as a volunteer, fellow, staff member, etc? Don't be shy, 
share your work! Be bold and be proud*!


I've been working on the Teahouse, as part of my Fellowship, and of 
course, you're welcome to stop by and say hi if you wish and make a 
guest profile (or sign up to be a host!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse

Article wise I've been writing a lot about the Smithsonian, since I'm 
finishing up my final month as Wikipedian-in-Residence there. Just 
finished a rewrite of the National Museum of African Art which was the 
first Smithsonian museum to hire a woman director: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_African_Art


When I have leisure-Wikipedia time (which seems like never these days) 
I've been working on trudging through the 1,000+ backlog of WikiProject 
Women's History unrated articles (i.e. importance/class).


We also have a second women's edit-a-thon coming up in San Francisco, if 
you're in the area, sign up! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/San_Francisco_WikiWomen%27s_Edit-a-Thon_2


What about you? Online and offline activities, I'd love to hear about 
how you've being proactive and what you're working on!


-Sarah


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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Risker  wrote:

> Andreas - you seem to have the belief that the pervasive exposure to
> pornography is having an adverse effect on community dynamics, and in
> particular is having a negative impact on the recruitment of women
> editors.  Perhaps you might want to consider whether your pervasive
> discussions of pornography aren't having a similar effect.
>
> This is a great way to kill a thread, when twice in the last few hours,
> members of this forum have striven to redirect threads from the topic of
> pornography.
>
> Risker/Anne



Anne,

It is not about pervasive exposure to pornography at all. We have
established – and all of us are in agreement on this point – that women
generally are very rarely exposed to it in Wikipedia, unless they seek it
out.

The problem is that the male culture that likes its pornography out there,
and rails against any limitation of it, even a token one like an opt-in
filter, concomitantly ALSO happens to be sexist and unwelcoming to women,
which is again something at least the women here are largely agreed on.

Let's just leave it at that. Wikimedia has far and away the most pro-porn,
anti-censorship/anti-filtering policy of any top-10 website. It also has
the lowest female participation of all these 10 websites.

I believe that it is appalling, and I believe that these two facts are
closely related: you are welcome to disagree.

Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Risker]

Andreas - you seem to have the belief that the pervasive exposure to
pornography is having an adverse effect on community dynamics, and in
particular is having a negative impact on the recruitment of women
editors.  Perhaps you might want to consider whether your pervasive
discussions of pornography aren't having a similar effect.

This is a great way to kill a thread, when twice in the last few hours,
members of this forum have striven to redirect threads from the topic of
pornography.

Risker/Anne

On 31 May 2012 20:28, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> John,
>
> Fine. Here's some research ideas for you:
>
> 1. Collect (or analyse existing) demographic data about the proportion of
>
> - single males/females
> - males/females in a relationship
> - married males/females
>
> - males/females with children
> - childless males/females
>
> within the contributor populations of different Internet sites – from
> 4chan to Wikimedia to Reddit to Facebook to Twitter etc.
>
> Make sure to include some sites like Pinterest that are predominantly
> female.
>
> 2. Rate visibility and in-your-face-ness of pornography, glamour shots and
> nudity-related discussions on each of these sites.
>
> 3. Determine overall female vs. male participation level on each site.
>
> Analyse the data to see whether sites with high matter-of-course
> visibility of pornography, like 4chan, turn out to have the highest
> proportion of single childless males, e.g., and the lowest proportion of
> women contributors (married mothers, women in a relationship, single women,
> etc.).
>
> Expressed as hypotheses:
>
> Null hypothesis: There is no discernible statistical correlation between
> higher visibility of porn, a high proportion of single childless males in
> the site's population, and low female participation levels (random cloud in
> the scatter plots).
>
> Alternative hypothesis: There is a discernible statistical correlation
> between higher visibility of porn, a higher proportion of single childless
> males, and low female participation levels (clear trend lines visible in
> the scatter plots).
>
> Perform regression analysis, calculate confidence levels etc.
>
> 4. As a bonus, ask survey participants about their views of the different
> sites – what attracts or repels them, how various sites' attitudes to
> censorship, presence or absence of glamour shots and pornography, freedom
> to use abusive language, absence of abusive language etc. impact on their
> decision to participate or not.
>
> If there are significant correlations in the data, and a higher proportion
> of non-single or married men and fathers is correlated with higher female
> participation levels, make clear to the community in which direction we
> have to move to change both male demographics, and attract more women.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:08 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
>
>> Andreas,
>>
>> ffs can we have one thread where we don't talk about porn.  Or if you
>> do think porn is a part of the gendergap, pose research questions
>> which will help test your hypothesis, because that is what this thread
>> is about.
>>
>> I want research questions I can put to real academics.
>> Not bullshit hand-wavey assertions even if they are backed up by a
>> 'citation'.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>> > The screenshots below are from a blog post by a girl geek going onto
>> 4chan
>> > /b/.
>> >
>> > http://boards.4chan.org/b/ (probably NSFW)
>> >
>> > 4chan is the site that gave Wikipedia and the world its lolcats, as
>> well as
>> > the saying, "There are no girls on the Internet." As you'll no doubt
>> see if
>> > you navigate to the above address, it is also full of anonymously posted
>> > girlie pictures, not unlike parts of Wikimedia. One of the board's
>> > catchphrases is, "Tits or GTFO". Rather male-centric, right?
>> >
>> > The Wikipedia article on 4chan is a featured article. (Why am I not
>> > surprised ...)
>> >
>> > The following screenshots are SFW:
>> >
>> >
>> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-81.png
>> >
>> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-9.png
>> >
>> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-10.png
>> >
>> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-11.png
>> >
>> > The following is the dialogue they show:
>> >
>> > ---o0o---
>> >
>> > /b/abes get no love! I hate you, /b/. Where are the female /b/tards?
>> >
>> > in the kitchen.
>> >
>> > stop making these shit threads ... girls on /b/ are anon, and stay anon.
>> >
>> > i lol'd go make me a fucking sandwich
>> >
>> > If girls on /b/ are non and stay anon, why is anon assumed to be male by
>> > default? Can we just purge all the cam whores, plz?
>> >
>> > making me a god damn sammwich
>> >
>> > make my sandwich silently
>> >
>> > im a girl,im in florida
>> >
>> > Tits or GTFO. Pic related.
>> >
>> > Girls on the Inter

Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[phoebe ayers]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:43 AM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson
 wrote:
> I've found this line of dialogue interesting but have hesitated to
> participate. When I first started editing Wikipedia, I arrived with a goal
> to bring some balance to many of the articles pertaining to domestic and
> international human trafficking and pornography. I soon realized that
> pornography and closely aligned topics were very heated. I encountered
> vulgar language, gender discrimination, objectification of women, and a less
> than hospitable environment that taught everybody to refrain from being
> dicks. I left for three years with no plans to return.
>
> My professional background includes speaking before local, state, and
> national legislative commissions and government houses on these issues, in
> addition to obscenity and the secondary harmful affects of pornography. I
> come from a long line of preachers, judges, and family members that are
> serving as city mayors, county commissioners, a US Senator, and state
> legislators. At the same time, I have many close friends that currently
> write, produce, and star in adult films. Then there are my stripper and
> hooker friends. I also work with global agencies and government officials to
> assist individuals escaping human trafficking situations from throughout
> Southeast Asia, Western Europe, and North America. This is my area of
> expertise. And the area of my life that I have long maintained separately
> from Wikipedia.
>
> While I say this hesitantly, I am one example of an editor that left due to
> the divide between the genders represented on Wikipedia.
>
> All that said, there is a lack of knowledge and ability on Wikipedia to
> differentiate between pornography and obscenity. Pornography is defined as
> erotic content or material that is intended or created to cause sexual
> arousal or excitement. That said, erotic content that depicts or displays
> sexual organs, sexual intercourse, or sexual acts may not always be defined
> as pornography. This is the case with content and materials presented for
> educational purposes.
>
> (In the US, outside of child pornography, pornography may only be regulated,
> based on the identified secondary harmful affects on the community in which
> it is created and/or distributed.)
>
> In the US, obscenity can be legislated according to local, regional, state
> laws. It is up to each community to determine what constitutes obscenity.
> And these laws can often change over the years, based on the norms of the
> individuals that vote to pass or fail the proposed regulations. At the same
> time, obscenity is defined differently throughout the world from one country
> and culture to the next.
>
> Due to the global nature of Wikipedia, I doubt that we will ever be able to
> establish guidelines regarding the presence of pornography. The rule of
> thumb is that which is determined to be educational. This differs from one
> person and one culture to the next. What one Wikipedian may find obscene,
> another may not. This can only be determined by the community. Is an image
> merely presented to bring shock and awe? Entice? Arouse? Or is it presented
> for educational purposes? Heck, even an image of arousal may be presented
> for educational purposes. The issue of pornography can really only be
> determined on a case by case basis.
>
> As I earlier stated, I left Wikipedia for three years due to the vulgarity
> and discrimination against women. I returned because I enjoy writing during
> my spare time. Wikipedia is reflective of our global culture, no matter
> where you choose to spend your time. When it comes right down to it, if I
> don't want to see it, as in my daily life, all I have to do is stay out of
> the Wikipedia red light district.
>
> Cindy



On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Kim Osman  wrote:
> I totally agree with you - I have never come across anything remotely 
> offensive in the course of editing or browsing. What I was trying to say is 
> that rather than being a reason more females don't edit Wikipedia (and 
> perhaps here my use of the word prevalence was wrong) the presence of certain 
> types of pornography on Wikipedia contributes to the culture which results in 
> the instances of misogny and discrimination you note. So I do see the 
> editorial decisions made around the type of content Larry Sanger referenced 
> as being part of a wider conversation about female participation.
>
> Cheers, Kim



Cindy and Kim, thank you both for your messages and perspectives --
it's always nice to hear from newer voices on the list, especially in
discussions that tend to get heated and dominated by just a few
people. And Kim, welcome to Wikipedia, and Cindy, welcome back -- and
happy writing :)

-- phoebe

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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Andreas Kolbe]

John,

Fine. Here's some research ideas for you:

1. Collect (or analyse existing) demographic data about the proportion of

- single males/females
- males/females in a relationship
- married males/females

- males/females with children
- childless males/females

within the contributor populations of different Internet sites – from 4chan
to Wikimedia to Reddit to Facebook to Twitter etc.

Make sure to include some sites like Pinterest that are predominantly
female.

2. Rate visibility and in-your-face-ness of pornography, glamour shots and
nudity-related discussions on each of these sites.

3. Determine overall female vs. male participation level on each site.

Analyse the data to see whether sites with high matter-of-course visibility
of pornography, like 4chan, turn out to have the highest proportion of
single childless males, e.g., and the lowest proportion of women
contributors (married mothers, women in a relationship, single women,
etc.).

Expressed as hypotheses:

Null hypothesis: There is no discernible statistical correlation between
higher visibility of porn, a high proportion of single childless males in
the site's population, and low female participation levels (random cloud in
the scatter plots).

Alternative hypothesis: There is a discernible statistical correlation
between higher visibility of porn, a higher proportion of single childless
males, and low female participation levels (clear trend lines visible in
the scatter plots).

Perform regression analysis, calculate confidence levels etc.

4. As a bonus, ask survey participants about their views of the different
sites – what attracts or repels them, how various sites' attitudes to
censorship, presence or absence of glamour shots and pornography, freedom
to use abusive language, absence of abusive language etc. impact on their
decision to participate or not.

If there are significant correlations in the data, and a higher proportion
of non-single or married men and fathers is correlated with higher female
participation levels, make clear to the community in which direction we
have to move to change both male demographics, and attract more women.

Andreas



On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:08 PM, John Vandenberg  wrote:

> Andreas,
>
> ffs can we have one thread where we don't talk about porn.  Or if you
> do think porn is a part of the gendergap, pose research questions
> which will help test your hypothesis, because that is what this thread
> is about.
>
> I want research questions I can put to real academics.
> Not bullshit hand-wavey assertions even if they are backed up by a
> 'citation'.
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > The screenshots below are from a blog post by a girl geek going onto
> 4chan
> > /b/.
> >
> > http://boards.4chan.org/b/ (probably NSFW)
> >
> > 4chan is the site that gave Wikipedia and the world its lolcats, as well
> as
> > the saying, "There are no girls on the Internet." As you'll no doubt see
> if
> > you navigate to the above address, it is also full of anonymously posted
> > girlie pictures, not unlike parts of Wikimedia. One of the board's
> > catchphrases is, "Tits or GTFO". Rather male-centric, right?
> >
> > The Wikipedia article on 4chan is a featured article. (Why am I not
> > surprised ...)
> >
> > The following screenshots are SFW:
> >
> >
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-81.png
> >
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-9.png
> >
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-10.png
> >
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-11.png
> >
> > The following is the dialogue they show:
> >
> > ---o0o---
> >
> > /b/abes get no love! I hate you, /b/. Where are the female /b/tards?
> >
> > in the kitchen.
> >
> > stop making these shit threads ... girls on /b/ are anon, and stay anon.
> >
> > i lol'd go make me a fucking sandwich
> >
> > If girls on /b/ are non and stay anon, why is anon assumed to be male by
> > default? Can we just purge all the cam whores, plz?
> >
> > making me a god damn sammwich
> >
> > make my sandwich silently
> >
> > im a girl,im in florida
> >
> > Tits or GTFO. Pic related.
> >
> > Girls on the Internet don't fucking exist.
> >
> > girl, why do you have a pc in the kitchen?
> >
> > female /b/tard here, trolling threads and not making samiches
> >
> > Oh silly, there are no girls on the internet
> >
> > ---o0o---
> >
> > Now, this dialogue illustrates how anonymous uncensored porn and sexist
> > behaviour towards a woman can go together, and reinforce each other.
> >
> > The blog post the screenshots are taken from is here:
> >
> >
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/elisaverna/wait-did-4chan-just-enlighten-me-i-feel-dirty/
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Andreas Kolbe 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Michael J. Lowrey <
> orangem...@gmail.com>
>

Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Kim Osman]

> Hi,
>
> I edit Wikipedia a lot.  I probably spend more time than I should editing
> Wikipedia.  Can I ask where there is a prevalence of pornography on
> Wikipedia?  I honestly can't think of a single time I have come across it
> when I wasn't directly looking for it.  Misogny to a degree, yes.
> Discrimination against women's topics and topics outside the United States,
> youbetcha.  But pornography?  Maybe I just don't edit articles where
> pornography is very prevalent?
>

Hi Laura,

I totally agree with you - I have never come across anything remotely offensive 
in the course of editing or browsing. What I was trying to say is that rather 
than being a reason more females don't edit Wikipedia (and perhaps here my use 
of the word prevalence was wrong) the presence of certain types of pornography 
on Wikipedia contributes to the culture which results in the instances of 
misogny and discrimination you note. So I do see the editorial decisions made 
around the type of content Larry Sanger referenced as being part of a wider 
conversation about female participation.

Cheers, Kim







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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[John Vandenberg]

Andreas,

ffs can we have one thread where we don't talk about porn.  Or if you
do think porn is a part of the gendergap, pose research questions
which will help test your hypothesis, because that is what this thread
is about.

I want research questions I can put to real academics.
Not bullshit hand-wavey assertions even if they are backed up by a 'citation'.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> The screenshots below are from a blog post by a girl geek going onto 4chan
> /b/.
>
> http://boards.4chan.org/b/ (probably NSFW)
>
> 4chan is the site that gave Wikipedia and the world its lolcats, as well as
> the saying, "There are no girls on the Internet." As you'll no doubt see if
> you navigate to the above address, it is also full of anonymously posted
> girlie pictures, not unlike parts of Wikimedia. One of the board's
> catchphrases is, "Tits or GTFO". Rather male-centric, right?
>
> The Wikipedia article on 4chan is a featured article. (Why am I not
> surprised ...)
>
> The following screenshots are SFW:
>
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-81.png
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-9.png
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-10.png
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-11.png
>
> The following is the dialogue they show:
>
> ---o0o---
>
> /b/abes get no love! I hate you, /b/. Where are the female /b/tards?
>
> in the kitchen.
>
> stop making these shit threads ... girls on /b/ are anon, and stay anon.
>
> i lol'd go make me a fucking sandwich
>
> If girls on /b/ are non and stay anon, why is anon assumed to be male by
> default? Can we just purge all the cam whores, plz?
>
> making me a god damn sammwich
>
> make my sandwich silently
>
> im a girl,im in florida
>
> Tits or GTFO. Pic related.
>
> Girls on the Internet don't fucking exist.
>
> girl, why do you have a pc in the kitchen?
>
> female /b/tard here, trolling threads and not making samiches
>
> Oh silly, there are no girls on the internet
>
> ---o0o---
>
> Now, this dialogue illustrates how anonymous uncensored porn and sexist
> behaviour towards a woman can go together, and reinforce each other.
>
> The blog post the screenshots are taken from is here:
>
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/elisaverna/wait-did-4chan-just-enlighten-me-i-feel-dirty/
>
> Andreas
>
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Michael J. Lowrey 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Andreas Kolbe 
>>> wrote:
>>> > Please consider the likelihood that there may be a correlation between
>>> > the
>>> > let-it-all-hang-out attitude towards porn, and the problem you describe
>>> > as
>>> > "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and bad manners".
>>> >
>>> > The let-it-all-hang-out approach towards porn is likely
>>> >
>>> > – to attract people who engage in "sexualized behavior – sexist
>>> > comments and
>>> > bad manners", and
>>> > – to repel the type of people who would be "allies within the community
>>> > to
>>> > shoot down behaviour like that (civility!)".
>>> >
>>> > A more responsible and mainstream approach, on the other hand, is apt
>>> > to
>>> > repel the first and attract the second type of contributor.
>>>
>>> {{citation needed}}
>>>
>>> Unquestioned premises almost inevitably lead to false conclusions. In
>>> this case, the unquestioned premise is that those who oppose
>>> censorship are people who engage in (or at least tolerate) sexist
>>> comments and bad manners, as opposed to the possibility that those who
>>> people oppose censorship believe in opposing censorship as a matter of
>>> principle. You are unilaterally defining opponents of censorship as
>>> irresponsible, out of the mainstream, and unwilling to support
>>> civility: again I say, {{citation needed}}!
>>>
>>> (I won't bother to ask for an apology.)
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll work on a citation. But in my experience, the places that are most
>> radically free speech, and most anti-censorship when it comes to porn, like
>> parts of 4chan and reddit, are also places where the level of discourse goes
>> way south. I don't think that is a particularly novel or contentious
>> observation.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Sarah Stierch]

I agree!

Pete, Kaldari and others have fought the good fight about that. I think some
Things were developed on Commons and we tried to get more folks involved to no 
avail. I can't provide links this second.

I tried my best with model releases (I worked in fashion and photography before 
I was a Wikipedian and curator!) but little has seemed to come from it and as 
alway - I encourage people to get involved in curating commons of 
non-educational content. More voices means more content control.

I had to shift my focus to focus on bringing more women to Wikipedia, which I 
hope leads to more curating of content. Don't get me wrong - I think his very 
Important!!

Sarah

Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :)


On May 31, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Sarah  wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Sarah Stierch  
> wrote:
> 
>> ... I think it's concerning about
>> model contracts and so forth, but, I think we have bigger fish to fry at
>> this point. ...
> 
> Hi Sarah, I see your point, but I think the model releases are a major
> issue for us. As I look at it, women *are" involved extensively in
> Wikimedia, but a big percentage of that involvement comes in the form
> of being portrayed naked on Commons. This is very troubling to me. If
> in addition it's being done without their consent, then it's something
> I really wish we could act on, regardless of the legal requirements.
> 
> Sarah
> 
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Thomas Morton]

>
> Now, this dialogue illustrates how anonymous uncensored porn and sexist
> behaviour towards a woman can go together, and reinforce each other.
>
> The blog post the screenshots are taken from is here:
>
>
> http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/elisaverna/wait-did-4chan-just-enlighten-me-i-feel-dirty/
>

Did we just read the same blog post. Because I'm fairly sure that is not
what she said.

(and indeed I found the post insightful, refreshing and important)

Tom
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Andreas Kolbe]

The screenshots below are from a blog post by a girl geek going onto 4chan
/b/.

http://boards.4chan.org/b/ (probably NSFW)

4chan is the site that gave Wikipedia and the world its lolcats, as well as
the saying, "There are no girls on the Internet." As you'll no doubt see if
you navigate to the above address, it is also full of anonymously posted
girlie pictures, not unlike parts of Wikimedia. One of the board's
catchphrases is, "Tits or GTFO". Rather male-centric, right?

The Wikipedia article on 4chan is a featured article. (Why am I not
surprised ...)

The following screenshots are SFW:

http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-81.png
http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-9.png
http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-10.png
http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-11.png

The following is the dialogue they show:

---o0o---

/b/abes get no love! I hate you, /b/. Where are the female /b/tards?

in the kitchen.

stop making these shit threads ... girls on /b/ are anon, and stay anon.

i lol'd go make me a fucking sandwich

If girls on /b/ are non and stay anon, why is anon assumed to be male by
default? Can we just purge all the cam whores, plz?

making me a god damn sammwich

make my sandwich silently

im a girl,im in florida

Tits or GTFO. Pic related.

Girls on the Internet don't fucking exist.

girl, why do you have a pc in the kitchen?

female /b/tard here, trolling threads and not making samiches

Oh silly, there are no girls on the internet

---o0o---

Now, this dialogue illustrates how anonymous uncensored porn and sexist
behaviour towards a woman can go together, and reinforce each other.

The blog post the screenshots are taken from is here:

http://cultureandcommunication.org/f09/tdm/elisaverna/wait-did-4chan-just-enlighten-me-i-feel-dirty/

Andreas


On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Michael J. Lowrey 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Andreas Kolbe 
>> wrote:
>> > Please consider the likelihood that there may be a correlation between
>> the
>> > let-it-all-hang-out attitude towards porn, and the problem you describe
>> as
>> > "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and bad manners".
>> >
>> > The let-it-all-hang-out approach towards porn is likely
>> >
>> > – to attract people who engage in "sexualized behavior – sexist
>> comments and
>> > bad manners", and
>> > – to repel the type of people who would be "allies within the community
>> to
>> > shoot down behaviour like that (civility!)".
>> >
>> > A more responsible and mainstream approach, on the other hand, is apt to
>> > repel the first and attract the second type of contributor.
>>
>> {{citation needed}}
>>
>> Unquestioned premises almost inevitably lead to false conclusions. In
>> this case, the unquestioned premise is that those who oppose
>> censorship are people who engage in (or at least tolerate) sexist
>> comments and bad manners, as opposed to the possibility that those who
>> people oppose censorship believe in opposing censorship as a matter of
>> principle. You are unilaterally defining opponents of censorship as
>> irresponsible, out of the mainstream, and unwilling to support
>> civility: again I say, {{citation needed}}!
>>
>> (I won't bother to ask for an apology.)
>
>
>
> I'll work on a citation. But in my experience, the places that are most
> radically free speech, and most anti-censorship when it comes to porn, like
> parts of 4chan and reddit, are also places where the level of discourse
> goes way south. I don't think that is a particularly novel or contentious
> observation.
>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Sarah]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Sarah Stierch  wrote:

> ... I think it's concerning about
> model contracts and so forth, but, I think we have bigger fish to fry at
> this point. ...

Hi Sarah, I see your point, but I think the model releases are a major
issue for us. As I look at it, women *are" involved extensively in
Wikimedia, but a big percentage of that involvement comes in the form
of being portrayed naked on Commons. This is very troubling to me. If
in addition it's being done without their consent, then it's something
I really wish we could act on, regardless of the legal requirements.

Sarah

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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Bjoern Hoehrmann]

* John Vandenberg wrote:
>What research is needed?
>
>We have academics across the world who want to do research on Wikimedia.
>
>What questions can we put to the researchers in order to obtain a
>better understanding of
>
>* why women don't contribute?
>* what would help them contribute?
>* other?

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-December/002134.html
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > Please consider the likelihood that there may be a correlation between
> the
> > let-it-all-hang-out attitude towards porn, and the problem you describe
> as
> > "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and bad manners".
> >
> > The let-it-all-hang-out approach towards porn is likely
> >
> > – to attract people who engage in "sexualized behavior – sexist comments
> and
> > bad manners", and
> > – to repel the type of people who would be "allies within the community
> to
> > shoot down behaviour like that (civility!)".
> >
> > A more responsible and mainstream approach, on the other hand, is apt to
> > repel the first and attract the second type of contributor.
>
> {{citation needed}}
>
> Unquestioned premises almost inevitably lead to false conclusions. In
> this case, the unquestioned premise is that those who oppose
> censorship are people who engage in (or at least tolerate) sexist
> comments and bad manners, as opposed to the possibility that those who
> people oppose censorship believe in opposing censorship as a matter of
> principle. You are unilaterally defining opponents of censorship as
> irresponsible, out of the mainstream, and unwilling to support
> civility: again I say, {{citation needed}}!
>
> (I won't bother to ask for an apology.)



I'll work on a citation. But in my experience, the places that are most
radically free speech, and most anti-censorship when it comes to porn, like
parts of 4chan and reddit, are also places where the level of discourse
goes way south. I don't think that is a particularly novel or contentious
observation.
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[Gendergap] Public voice of gendergap

[Karen Sue Rolph]

Dear colleagues,

There is one reason, and one reason alone, that I have not gotten into the fray 
about appropriateness of images and some text in Wikipedia.  The reason is the 
discussion ends up on the internet and any search for my name will turn up all 
the details of everyone's comments.  This generates a guilt-by-association 
situation that can affect real life circumstances that I've already 
experienced.  In discussion with some parents, content added by some, 
discredits the entire Wikipedia reason-to-exist, and has become 
'not-recommended.'

As a mother and educator, who has encouraged universities, schools, PTAs, and 
school districts to embrace Wikipedia, and give students the opportunity to get 
a feel for ownership and responsible editing, and as a scholar committed to 
seeking solutions to gender gap issues, I hold the view that some materials are 
not appropriate.  What is not appropriate in schools and libraries has to be 
something to consider as a measure of acceptability.  As a social scientist, it 
is clear to me cultures vary. 

There might be considered an Iron Curtain Wikipedia with content that those 
seeking 'certain topics' could elect to navigate.

I'd rather this comment not be attached to any that may follow it, otherwise, I 
am sidelined from getting into the communication and search for consensus.

Thank you, and onward gallant Wikipedians - wherever and whoever you are,

KS Rolph
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Pete Forsyth]

On May 31, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>> Please consider the likelihood that there may be a correlation between the
>> let-it-all-hang-out attitude towards porn, and the problem you describe as
>> "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and bad manners".
>> 
>> The let-it-all-hang-out approach towards porn is likely
>> 
>> – to attract people who engage in "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and
>> bad manners", and
>> – to repel the type of people who would be "allies within the community to
>> shoot down behaviour like that (civility!)".
>> 
>> A more responsible and mainstream approach, on the other hand, is apt to
>> repel the first and attract the second type of contributor.
> 
> {{citation needed}}
> 
> Unquestioned premises almost inevitably lead to false conclusions. In
> this case, the unquestioned premise is that those who oppose
> censorship are people who engage in (or at least tolerate) sexist
> comments and bad manners, as opposed to the possibility that those who
> people oppose censorship believe in opposing censorship as a matter of
> principle. You are unilaterally defining opponents of censorship as
> irresponsible, out of the mainstream, and unwilling to support
> civility: again I say, {{citation needed}}!

Too commonly on Wikimedia projects, the following two positions are conflated:

(1) Concern about the ratio of content (e.g. the number of one kind of photo 
vs. another kind of photo) or the social dynamics around editing
(2) Willingness to engage in censorship

The two are simply not the same. To have a concern (like 1) is not to endorse 
one specific course of action (like 2). Offhand, I can't think of any actively 
engaged Wikipedian who has ever seriously endorsed censorship in our projects.

In general, within our projects and mailing lists, I'd like to see less 
inflammatory rhetoric based on this kind of conflation. I don't think it 
advances the discussion to label people as supporting censorship, when they 
have done no such thing.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Michael J. Lowrey]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> Please consider the likelihood that there may be a correlation between the
> let-it-all-hang-out attitude towards porn, and the problem you describe as
> "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and bad manners".
>
> The let-it-all-hang-out approach towards porn is likely
>
> – to attract people who engage in "sexualized behavior – sexist comments and
> bad manners", and
> – to repel the type of people who would be "allies within the community to
> shoot down behaviour like that (civility!)".
>
> A more responsible and mainstream approach, on the other hand, is apt to
> repel the first and attract the second type of contributor.

{{citation needed}}

Unquestioned premises almost inevitably lead to false conclusions. In
this case, the unquestioned premise is that those who oppose
censorship are people who engage in (or at least tolerate) sexist
comments and bad manners, as opposed to the possibility that those who
people oppose censorship believe in opposing censorship as a matter of
principle. You are unilaterally defining opponents of censorship as
irresponsible, out of the mainstream, and unwilling to support
civility: again I say, {{citation needed}}!

(I won't bother to ask for an apology.)

-- 
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes."
     --  Desiderius Erasmus

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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

> Usually it's because they are busy. The smallest group - 2% said because
> of sexualized environments on wiki spaces. Which has led me to believe in
> the red herring theory about porn and Wikipedia. I think it's concerning
> about model contracts and so forth, but, I think we have bigger fish to fry
> at this point. I think it's sexualized language and behavior that we need
> to be more concerned about - sexist comments and bad manners. (and of
> course, sexism can be experienced by people of any gender and has on
> Wikipedia.) But, that relies on culture change and allies within the
> community to shoot down behavior like that (civility!).
>



Please consider the likelihood that there may be a correlation between the
let-it-all-hang-out attitude towards porn, and the problem you describe as
"sexualized behavior – sexist comments and bad manners".

The let-it-all-hang-out approach towards porn is likely

– to attract people who engage in "sexualized behavior – sexist comments
and bad manners", and
– to repel the type of people who would be "allies within the community to
shoot down behaviour like that (civility!)".

A more responsible and mainstream approach, on the other hand, is apt to
repel the first and attract the second type of contributor.
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Re: [Gendergap] Gossamer threads archive

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

>  Hi Andreas,
>
> I think the current archival system, while not as manageable as
> Gossmer-Threads, is fine. We've had enough issues with privacy concerns on
> this public list, and I'd rather keep this list public yet still maintain
> what little bit of safety and privacy we can.
>
> If the members of this list think that an additional archival system is
> welcome, so be it, but, I think at this time the current system is fine.
>
> -Sarah
>


Okay, I understand the concern.

Best,
Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Sarah Stierch]

When I did my oh so not scientific survey about women who edit Wikipedia 
last year (and it was not an official WMF survey, this was just done by 
me, a concerned editor, and the process has changed since then, so don't 
plan on doing your own without going through WMF research processes, 
now) this is what I discovered from women who had edited Wikipedia 
within the past year (up to that point in 2011):


*83% of respondents started participating because they like the idea of 
volunteering to share their knowledge and/or wanted to share their 
knowledge with a larger audience.

*
You can learn more about that here: 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Wikimedia_Survey_2011#Why_did_these_respondents_start_participating_in_Wikimedia_projects.3F


*Why do most people continue to edit? *

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Wikimedia_Survey_2011#Why_do_these_respondents_continue_their_participation_in_Wikimedia_projects.3F
*
Every respondent said they liked volunteering and that they found it 
empowering. *
It's common knowledge amongst those involved in non-profit work 
that women devote more time to non-profit volunteering then men. How can 
we tap into that and let women know that they are contributing to a 
non-profit that has an international impact?


I asked why people /stop/ contributing (and this survey did include some 
women who stopped editing perhaps in that one year period):


http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Wikimedia_Survey_2011#Sometimes_editors_activity_levels_fluctuate._What_are_some_of_the_reasons_why_respondents_don.27t_contribute_as_much_as_they_usually_do_or_used_to.3F

Usually it's because they are busy. The smallest group - 2% said because 
of sexualized environments on wiki spaces. Which has led me to believe 
in the red herring theory about porn and Wikipedia. I think it's 
concerning about model contracts and so forth, but, I think we have 
bigger fish to fry at this point. I think it's sexualized language and 
behavior that we need to be more concerned about - sexist comments and 
bad manners. (and of course, sexism can be experienced by people of any 
gender and has on Wikipedia.) But, that relies on culture change and 
allies within the community to shoot down behavior like that (civility!).


*58% of participants said they had never been assaulted, attacked or 
been treated poorly by their Wikipedia colleagues. 33 percent said yes.

*http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Wikimedia_Survey_2011#Do_survey_participants_feel_they_have_been_assaulted.2C_attacked.2C_or_treated_poorly_by_colleagues_on_projects.3F

I did this survey because I wanted to know why women were editing. Not 
why women weren't. I took this as a sign that I needed to develop some 
sort of call for action, which encourages women to participate 
(something I am working on that is not yet public for my fellowship) 
that doesn't involve extensive time consumption at times, that the 
environment is probably worse for women who do find that sexualized 
content because they are looking at that content (duh, I'm going to find 
porny stuff when I search for doggy style or whatever or when i search 
for "cucumber" on commons because I know where to look. Most people who 
use Commons know that it's mainly used by Wikipedians, no one else - 
pregnancy is one prime recent example, but, that's one article out of 3 
million+ on English wikipedia), and so I'd channel my energy into actions.


I still wholeheartedly believe that call for actions, making tasks 
simpler and easier to participate in, inviting women to participate 
online and offline, social activities and friendly easy to understand 
content is going to help.  (and help people of all genders participate - 
so far the Teahouse is helping retain editors, and that includes a large 
percentage of women who have came through the Teahouse, but how do we 
make it more known to more women?)


My opinion has come down to: stop searching, and start taking actions. 
Not all actions might succeed, but, it's up to us to find that out.


Stop bitching and start a revolution, as the old adage says :)

-Sarah



On 5/31/12 10:37 AM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:

On 5/30/12 7:19 PM, Béria Lima wrote:
I think that better than ask why people don't contribute, is better 
tell them why SHOULD they? For us is easier to pass by the fact that 
not everyone knows why they should contribute. We should give they as 
much info as possible to make them a contributor, not asking why they 
don't do it.


Contribution is almost always a question of motivation, if you don't 
motivate people to do it, they simply won't.


I think this is a good point. One of the most surprising results from 
our editor surveys was large disparity between the importance that men 
assign to editing Wikipedia and the importance that women assign to 
it. (A significantly higher percentage of men said they edit Wikipedia 
because it is important.) How is it possible that men and women view 
the importan

Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Ryan Kaldari]

On 5/30/12 7:19 PM, Béria Lima wrote:
I think that better than ask why people don't contribute, is better 
tell them why SHOULD they? For us is easier to pass by the fact that 
not everyone knows why they should contribute. We should give they as 
much info as possible to make them a contributor, not asking why they 
don't do it.


Contribution is almost always a question of motivation, if you don't 
motivate people to do it, they simply won't.


I think this is a good point. One of the most surprising results from 
our editor surveys was large disparity between the importance that men 
assign to editing Wikipedia and the importance that women assign to it. 
(A significantly higher percentage of men said they edit Wikipedia 
because it is important.) How is it possible that men and women view the 
importance of the exact same activity in dramatically different ways? I 
have a lot of theories, but I'd love to see more research into this.


Ryan Kaldari
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Re: [Gendergap] Gossamer threads archive

[Sarah Stierch]

Hi Andreas,

I think the current archival system, while not as manageable as 
Gossmer-Threads, is fine. We've had enough issues with privacy concerns 
on this public list, and I'd rather keep this list public yet still 
maintain what little bit of safety and privacy we can.


If the members of this list think that an additional archival system is 
welcome, so be it, but, I think at this time the current system is fine.


-Sarah

On 5/31/12 6:58 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
To the list administrators: Would it be possible to have this list 
archived on gossamer-threads, like the Foundation list?


http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/

It's a much more convenient format to refer back to than the monthly 
archive page.


Andreas


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--
*Sarah Stierch*
*/Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/*
>>Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today 
<<
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Nathan]

What I'd like to see, and what I don't think has been done before, is a
survey of editors as they are editing. By that I mean, when someone saves
an edit, a box asks them "What was the purpose of your edit? What made you
decide to make this edit? If it was to correct an error, how were you
alerted to the error? Do you have specific expertise in the topic of this
article? Are you male, female or decline to respond?" etc. etc. It could be
done alone, or in conjunction with a broader opt-in survey, but I think it
would capture some really interesting and useful results.
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Risker]

While I won't comment on what motivation methods *I* think would work well,
I think it is a topic that has potential as the subject of academic
research.

It is just as important to know why people choose to do something as it is
to know why they choose not to do the same thing.

Risker/Anne

On 31 May 2012 01:19, John Vandenberg  wrote:

> Hi Beria,
>
> Which motivation methods do you think work well?
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Béria Lima 
> wrote:
> > I think that better than ask why people don't contribute, is better tell
> > them why SHOULD they? For us is easier to pass by the fact that not
> everyone
> > knows why they should contribute. We should give they as much info as
> > possible to make them a contributor, not asking why they don't do it.
> >
> > Contribution is almost always a question of motivation, if you don't
> > motivate people to do it, they simply won't.
> > _
> > Béria Lima
> >
> > Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre
> > acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir
> > esse sonho.
> >
> >
> > On 30 May 2012 18:47, John Vandenberg  wrote:
> >>
> >> What research is needed?
> >>
> >> We have academics across the world who want to do research on Wikimedia.
> >>
> >> What questions can we put to the researchers in order to obtain a
> >> better understanding of
> >>
> >> * why women don't contribute?
> >> * what would help them contribute?
> >> * other?
> >>
> >> --
> >> John Vandenberg
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Gendergap mailing list
> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Daniel and Elizabeth Case]

From: Risker 

>On the Commons side of things, I think there has been an over-aggressive 
>campaign to extract "license compliant" images from Flickr and other >non-WMF 
>repositories that include subjects who were very unlikely to know that their 
>image was going to be made available on Commons. I >believe that whoever 
>uploads those images to Commons has a personal responsibility to verify that 
>all of the subjects in those images was >aware of, and agrees to, the 
>licensing terms.  I also believe that it should become part of the process  
>that prior to uploading such images, the >person uploading to Commons confirms 
>with the Flickr uploader that the terms of the license are correct, and that 
>there are suitable model >releases where applicable.

This has always been one of my concerns about the superordination of free 
licensing in our image policy, both on Commons and enwiki. Any other issues 
with the image are downplayed in favor of archiving all the free images 
possible. I am not sure, for instance, that many of the Flickr users whose 
pictures have been used are quite aware of what the CC license means. Some of 
them seemed to think at one point that it was the only way to make their 
pictures publicly viewable, or did so because of peer pressure to do this good 
and cool thing without really understanding the legal implications.

I have often wondered what we do if confronted with a situation where there was 
a notable person with plenty of good-quality copyrighted images, but the only 
free one would be one that was rather unintentionally revealing (upskirt, say) 
while still showing their face. Could some editors insist on using one of the 
copyrighted images in that case even though the NFCC would not allow it because 
an equivalent free image was available?

Daniel Case

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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Should there be a Wikipedia boycott over the lack of an image filter?

[Bjoern Hoehrmann]

* Laura Hale wrote:
>There was a real feeling amongst some people that this was a
>red-herring type issue that was taking away valuable time and resources
>from doing activities towards increasing female participation on Wikimedia
>related projects, and that to a certain degree, the obsession with this
>topic was actively derailing the ability to work on these goals.

Perhaps we could conduct an experiment to see whether there is any truth
to that? Maybe someone could make this point on the "gendergap" mailing
list, and then we'd look whether people will discuss increasing female
participation on Wikipedia, or would instead discuss issues surrounding
depictions of human nudity, like record keeping requirements in national
jurisdictions...
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Risker  wrote:

> On the Commons side of things, I think there has been an over-aggressive
> campaign to extract "license compliant" images from Flickr and other
> non-WMF repositories that include subjects who were very unlikely to know
> that their image was going to be made available on Commons. I believe that
> whoever uploads those images to Commons has a personal responsibility to
> verify that all of the subjects in those images was aware of, and agrees
> to, the licensing terms.  I also believe that it should become part of the
> process  that prior to uploading such images, the person uploading to
> Commons confirms with the Flickr uploader that the terms of the license are
> correct, and that there are suitable model releases where applicable.
>
> Let's not worry so much about what courts have decided, and pay more
> attention to developing best practices within our own projects.
>
> Risker/Anne
>


Agreed. Most of these are from Flickr, for example:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles/Handcuffed

Going by past experience, the Flickr account holders are quite likely
unaware of these uploads.
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Risker]

Okay, I'm going to try to redirect this thread a bit from the long, drawn
out discussion about legal requirements for model releases of explicit
images (and the related record keeping), because I think that is only one
small aspect of issues.

I agree with those who say there is a low risk of people accidentally
finding images of an explicit nature in Wikipedia articles that are not
directly related to those subjects.  I do agree that at least some
Wikipedia projects seem to have a disproportionately large collection of
such articles, and that some of them are poorly named or identified, so
that someone looking up a term that is used both in relation to a
non-sexual topic and a sexual topic may get a bit of a surprise, and that
needs to be addressed.

On the Commons side of things, I think there has been an over-aggressive
campaign to extract "license compliant" images from Flickr and other
non-WMF repositories that include subjects who were very unlikely to know
that their image was going to be made available on Commons. I believe that
whoever uploads those images to Commons has a personal responsibility to
verify that all of the subjects in those images was aware of, and agrees
to, the licensing terms.  I also believe that it should become part of the
process  that prior to uploading such images, the person uploading to
Commons confirms with the Flickr uploader that the terms of the license are
correct, and that there are suitable model releases where applicable.

Let's not worry so much about what courts have decided, and pay more
attention to developing best practices within our own projects.

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Nathan]

This may be an interesting tangent, but it doesn't really bear on the
responsibility of Wikimedia or its projects. While others may have both
legal and moral obligations, Wikimedia certainly has moral obligations with
or without potential legal liability. The legal arguments are just a
smokescreen.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Theo10011]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Theo10011  wrote:
>
>> Outside prosecutors can not prosecute, or charge any editor based on
>> their username, whether its User:someguy542 or User:Ladiesman232, there is
>> no real world link without the IP records.
>>
>
>
> Firstly, that's not the sort of reasoning a charitable foundation should
> rely on. It makes for bad PR.


A charitable foundation? Bad PR? Every OSP uses this and it is an actual
and often-used legal defense. Youtube uploaders don't use their real names,
their social security numbers or even their resident country. Same with
Facebook, in case of legal proceeding, just a FB page is not enough to link
identity for an entire legal case. There are a few posters on this list,
not using their real name, is it PR to say you can not legally link their
real identities to their email addresses without going through their email
provider?


>
> Secondly, it is often relatively trivial to identify people. You'll
> remember that the person who posted the Seigenthaler hoax was identified
> from his IP, and lost his job (I think he got it back afterwards, when
> Seigenthaler took pity on him and spoke to his employer). Furthermore, many
> established Commonists and Wikipedians either disclose their real names on
> mailing lists and/or their user pages, have pictures of themselves on
> Commons from Wikimania or other Wikimedia events, or are otherwise
> trivially identifiable. Take the recent Beta M case, for example.
>

You must have some super-powers to identify people on commons without their
IP info then, most of us need CU and even that is not conclusive or linked
to any real identity. I don't know a single thing about any editor that
they doesn't choose to mention on their user page. To have that weak of a
chain of identification, enough to prosecute someone and stand up to
legal scrutiny, is something totally different.

If you want, I can list 100 users on commons and en.wp, please identify
them for me if it is that trivial. I have only talked to them for a couple
of years, but I still can't tell anything about them, no names, gender,
location. I'm usually surprised to learn those things, when they are
actually revealed, I never thought someone's real identity and personal
information being trivial to figure out.

Even in the case you mention, the only identifiable information was his IP,
the OSP is usually the only one with access to that information.


>
> Yes, an anonymous uploader who made only one edit from an Internet café
> may escape scrutiny. Although the other day I came across one uploader who
> had inadvertently uploaded geolocation data from his mobile phone along
> with his image, identifying the precise street address of the bedroom in
> Germany where the image was taken ... many mobile phones these days include
> geolocation in their metadata.
>

Actually, most smartphone have the option to add geolocation data to the
metadata. They can turn it off or on in their settings. Most people already
do upload geolocation data along with their smartphone images without
knowing about it. It is actually very, very common.


Regards
Theo
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> Outside prosecutors can not prosecute, or charge any editor based on their
> username, whether its User:someguy542 or User:Ladiesman232, there is no
> real world link without the IP records.
>


Firstly, that's not the sort of reasoning a charitable foundation should
rely on. It makes for bad PR.

Secondly, it is often relatively trivial to identify people. You'll
remember that the person who posted the Seigenthaler hoax was identified
from his IP, and lost his job (I think he got it back afterwards, when
Seigenthaler took pity on him and spoke to his employer). Furthermore, many
established Commonists and Wikipedians either disclose their real names on
mailing lists and/or their user pages, have pictures of themselves on
Commons from Wikimania or other Wikimedia events, or are otherwise
trivially identifiable. Take the recent Beta M case, for example.

Yes, an anonymous uploader who made only one edit from an Internet café may
escape scrutiny. Although the other day I came across one uploader who had
inadvertently uploaded geolocation data from his mobile phone along with
his image, identifying the precise street address of the bedroom in Germany
where the image was taken ... many mobile phones these days include
geolocation in their metadata.
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Béria Lima]

>
> *I really don't know how long CU information is retained *
>

3 months. All CU logs are kept for 3 months
_
*Béria Lima*

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 31 May 2012 10:43, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:48 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>>
>> Theo, that is completely wrong. Record-keeping requirements only apply to
>> images where models were required to engage in actual sexually explicit
>> conduct, and moreover, it only applies to images created from 1990 onward.
>>
>
> I reread the information I based my conclusion on. I must be missing some
> part that you are referring to. Even the definition of "secondary
> producers" and its distinction from "primary producers" is linked and
> explained at length in articles related to legislation 2257.
>
> You gave the definition of sexually explicit content from Cornell law that
> I based my understanding on, " (v) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or
> pubic area of any person." - is a giant definition to cover a lot of
> content, regardless of its purpose.
>
> The single prosecution based on that law has been against the "Girls Gone
> Wild" producer, they weren't exactly charged for any other form of sexually
> explicit content beyond depiction of "genitals or pubic area" and lack of
> proper record-keeping.
>
>
> Again, that is completely wrong. Facebook and the Wikimedia Foundation are
>> already protected by 230(c) safe harbor provisions. Responsibility lies
>> with the individual uploader or editor, who enjoys no such protection but
>> is fully liable for their own actions.
>>
>
> Here in lies the burden on the service providers. The complete record of
> the uploader/editor/individual would lie with the service provider. Edit
> histories and contribution list provide next to no information on the real
> world identities of editors, not even where they are located. The only
> possible link, even the country of residence would be information only
> available to the service provider in the form of their IP address.
>
> Outside prosecutors can not prosecute, or charge any editor based on their
> username, whether its User:someguy542 or User:Ladiesman232, there is no
> real world link without the IP records. That is where the burden comes on
> the service provider. In order to prosecute and get that information
> legally, the burden passes to the provider. This actually happens all the
> time, requests are made by prosecutors, law-enforcers, to legally get the
> information to prosecute, just not in cases of record-keeping violations.
> There have been new developments related to this, IP addresses not being
> directly culpable of actions as such, or not being culpable of the
> individual paying for the said IP connection but that's another discussion.
>
>
>>
>> The thing is: Wikimedia keeps edit histories and contributions lists for
>> decades. We have no idea what implementation of US law will look like in
>> five or ten years' time, given political vagaries.
>>
>
> Yes, but those edit histories and contribution lists are useless in their
> public form. More so, in Wikimedia's case than say Facebook. The only
> relevant information is the IP address, which again open up a whole new
> door of privacy and how far Wikimedia would go to defend or infringe on it.
> I really don't know how long CU information is retained vs. edit histories,
> but if they are indeed kept for decades, it might turn into a liability.
> The speed at which IP addresses can change, even entire blocks move, even
> that history might become unusable in 1-2 years.
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
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[Gendergap] Gossamer threads archive

[Andreas Kolbe]

To the list administrators: Would it be possible to have this list archived
on gossamer-threads, like the Foundation list?

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/

It's a much more convenient format to refer back to than the monthly
archive page.

Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Thomas Morton  wrote:

> Now, things got complicated when DOJ added an entirely new class of
>> producers you speak of "secondary producers", anyone who "publishes,
>> reproduces, or reissues" explicit material. This is where things get
>> complicated. What followed was a circuit court decision, and other
>> proceedings, that ruled these requirements were facially invalid because
>> they imposed an overbroad burden on legitimate, constitutionally protected
>> speech.
>>
>>
> That's pretty important then, right? Because IIRC circuit court decisions
> inform judgement in later such cases - and the only way the legal
> interpretation can be rejudged is in a full appeals court?
>
> Tom
>


Tom, the Wikipedia article continues as follows (my emphases):

---o0o---

On October 23, 2007, the 6th Circuit U.S. Court of
Appeals
ruled
the federal record-keeping statute unconstitutional, holding that the law
is overly broad and facially
invalid.[1]
The
Sixth Circuit subsequently *reheard the case **en
banc
** and issued an opinion on February 20, 2009, upholding the
constitutionality* of the record-keeping requirements, albeit with some
dissents.[3]

Proposed regulations

On July 12, 2007, the Department of Justice issued a preliminary set of
addendum record keeping regulations based on the Walsh Act amendments onto
the existing regulations at 25 C.F.R. pt.
75.[16] These
new regulations are meant to encompass the inclusion of simulated sexual
actions that do not actually show explicit sexual contact or fulfillment
that were included by the Adam Walsh Act that was signed into law in 2007.

These new regulations were allowed in actual legal enforcement by the
*dismissal
of its constitutionality challenges* by U.S. District Judge Michael Baylson
on July 28, 2010,[17] as
the US Supreme Court had already refused to hear the same challenge in 2009.
[edit
]Court affirmation of 2257 and 2257A

After the July 2010 decision by U.S. District Judge Michael Baylson to
dismiss the FSC’s lawsuit per the request of US Attorney Eric Holder's DOJ,
agreeing that USC 2257 and 2257A regulations are
constitutional,[18]
the
FSC then filed an additional appeal to amend their original challenge to
the constitutionality
challenge.[19]

ON Monday, September 20, 2010, Judge Baylson rejected FSC's amended appeal,
allowing the government record-keeping inspections to be
restarted.[20]
]

The FSC stated that they would appeal the case to the Third Circuit of
Appeals if needed.


---o0o---


Also, remember that this is a Wikipedia article. We'd be better off looking
at the cited sources.



Nathan said, "That can be true, but there are 13 circuits and a decision in
one has force only within its own jurisdiction. In any case, it's clear
that Wikimedia is not held to these rules, but that's rather beside the
point. We should *want* this information, whether we are required to have
it or not."



Please understand that there is a difference between what the Wikimedia
Foundation is held to, and what contributors are held to. Editors are not
the Foundation, unless they are employees.



To give two examples which will hopefully make this clear:



1. If Joe Smith uploads child pornography on Facebook, Facebook and
individual Facebook employees are in the clear. They do not need age and
consent records to host this material on their servers. They are protected
by Section 230(c). But John Smith goes to jail.



2. If Joe Smith posts defamatory statements in Jack Smith's Wikipedia
biography, the Wikimedia Foundation is not legally liable for defamation.
Joe Smith, however, is and can be sued.



It's, potentially at least, exactly the same with 2257 record-keeping
requirements.



Of course I agree with Nathan's main point: the Wikimedia Foundation should
not accept sexually explicit material without the uploader providing a copy
of the required documentation. It's the professional, best-practice thing
to do. Not least to protect its volunteers and third-party reusers from
potential legal liability.


And if anonymous uploads dry up, then support a photography project with
professional porn performers to create high-quality media for sex
education: media with proper lighting, and with the proper records, made
available to all reusers. The Foundation took $20m last year, ten times as
much as just a few 

Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Theo10011]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:48 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
> Theo, that is completely wrong. Record-keeping requirements only apply to
> images where models were required to engage in actual sexually explicit
> conduct, and moreover, it only applies to images created from 1990 onward.
>

I reread the information I based my conclusion on. I must be missing some
part that you are referring to. Even the definition of "secondary
producers" and its distinction from "primary producers" is linked and
explained at length in articles related to legislation 2257.

You gave the definition of sexually explicit content from Cornell law that
I based my understanding on, " (v) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or
pubic area of any person." - is a giant definition to cover a lot of
content, regardless of its purpose.

The single prosecution based on that law has been against the "Girls Gone
Wild" producer, they weren't exactly charged for any other form of sexually
explicit content beyond depiction of "genitals or pubic area" and lack of
proper record-keeping.


Again, that is completely wrong. Facebook and the Wikimedia Foundation are
> already protected by 230(c) safe harbor provisions. Responsibility lies
> with the individual uploader or editor, who enjoys no such protection but
> is fully liable for their own actions.
>

Here in lies the burden on the service providers. The complete record of
the uploader/editor/individual would lie with the service provider. Edit
histories and contribution list provide next to no information on the real
world identities of editors, not even where they are located. The only
possible link, even the country of residence would be information only
available to the service provider in the form of their IP address.

Outside prosecutors can not prosecute, or charge any editor based on their
username, whether its User:someguy542 or User:Ladiesman232, there is no
real world link without the IP records. That is where the burden comes on
the service provider. In order to prosecute and get that information
legally, the burden passes to the provider. This actually happens all the
time, requests are made by prosecutors, law-enforcers, to legally get the
information to prosecute, just not in cases of record-keeping violations.
There have been new developments related to this, IP addresses not being
directly culpable of actions as such, or not being culpable of the
individual paying for the said IP connection but that's another discussion.


>
> The thing is: Wikimedia keeps edit histories and contributions lists for
> decades. We have no idea what implementation of US law will look like in
> five or ten years' time, given political vagaries.
>

Yes, but those edit histories and contribution lists are useless in their
public form. More so, in Wikimedia's case than say Facebook. The only
relevant information is the IP address, which again open up a whole new
door of privacy and how far Wikimedia would go to defend or infringe on it.
I really don't know how long CU information is retained vs. edit histories,
but if they are indeed kept for decades, it might turn into a liability.
The speed at which IP addresses can change, even entire blocks move, even
that history might become unusable in 1-2 years.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> Now, things got complicated when DOJ added an entirely new class of
> producers you speak of "secondary producers", anyone who "publishes,
> reproduces, or reissues" explicit material. This is where things get
> complicated. What followed was a circuit court decision, and other
> proceedings, that ruled these requirements were facially invalid because
> they imposed an overbroad burden on legitimate, constitutionally protected
> speech.
>
> The real question now becomes about its enforcement. Much of the sexual
> material on the internet, even depiction of works of art several hundred
> years old, any form of nudity even for educational, anatomical purposes
> might fall under this law (lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic
> area of any person).
>


Theo, that is completely wrong. Record-keeping requirements only apply to
images where models were required to engage in actual sexually explicit
conduct, and moreover, it only applies to images created from 1990 onward.



> The burden on service providers, and hosting websites would be massive to
> speak of - consider the implication on Facebook for example, or Flickr, or
> even Google, being responsible for linking every single image in results,
> they don't possess the proper records of the depicted subjects, which might
> very well number into tens of millions.
>


Again, that is completely wrong. Facebook and the Wikimedia Foundation are
already protected by 230(c) safe harbor provisions. Responsibility lies
with the individual uploader or editor, who enjoys no such protection but
is fully liable for their own actions.


Maybe that's why, it has been implemented only in one specific case
> primarily based on the new 2257 law and related legislation. The case was
> against Joe Francis, the originator of "Girls gone Wild" series. Also, of
> relevance might be that the series in question only depicted nudity, and
> not any sexual act. Even these charges were for the most part dropped later
> on.
>


The thing is: Wikimedia keeps edit histories and contributions lists for
decades. We have no idea what implementation of US law will look like in
five or ten years' time, given political vagaries.
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Nathan]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Thomas Morton  wrote:

>
> That's pretty important then, right? Because IIRC circuit court decisions
> inform judgement in later such cases - and the only way the legal
> interpretation can be rejudged is in a full appeals court?
>
> Tom
>
>
That can be true, but there are 13 circuits and a decision in one has force
only within its own jurisdiction. In any case, it's clear that Wikimedia is
not held to these rules, but that's rather beside the point. We should
*want* this information, whether we are required to have it or not.

Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Thomas Morton]

On 31 May 2012 14:10, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> No. Record-keeping is required by law for images whose production
>> involved actual people engaged in sexually explicit conduct, meaning
>> "actual or simulated—(i) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital,
>> oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the
>> same or opposite sex; (ii) bestiality; (iii) masturbation; (iv) sadistic or
>> masochistic abuse; or (v) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic
>> area of any person."
>>
>> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256
>>
>> If creation of the image did not involve real people engaged in such
>> conduct, no record-keeping requirements apply.
>>
>> Note that while the Wikimedia Foundation, due to Section 230(c) safe
>> harbor provisions, does not have a record-keeping duty here, my layman's
>> reading of http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257 is that every 
>> *individual
>> contributor* who
>>
>> – uploads an image depicting real people engaged in sexually explicit
>> conduct, or
>> – inserts such an image in Wikipedia, or
>> – manages such content on Wikimedia sites,
>>
>> thereby becomes a "secondary producer" required to keep and maintain
>> records documenting the performers' age, name, and consent, with failure to
>> do so punishable by up to five years in prison.
>>
>> Note that this includes anyone, say, inserting an image or video of
>> masturbation in a Wikipedia article or categorising it in Commons without
>> having a written record of the name, age and consent of the person shown on
>> file.
>>
>> I've asked Philippe Beaudette to confirm that this reading is correct. He
>> has said that while they cannot provide legal advice to individual editors,
>> they will put someone to work on that, and that it will be a month or so
>> before they can come back to us.
>>
>
>
> Let me try and give the whole context here. Actually,
> the Wikipedia article[1] on this subject explains the situation much
> better. I'm sure, finer legal minds reading this can correct where I go
> wrong. I am a layman too, and this is my inference from reading about the
> subject.
>
> The law you are speaking of is part of Child Protection and Obscenity
> Enforcement Act of 1988 or and the guideline enforcing them is 2257
> Regulations. It actually placed the burden of record keeping, on the
> primary producers, as in, who is "involved in hiring, contracting for,
> managing, or otherwise arranging for, the participation of the performers
> depicted,". In its original form, it only placed the burden on producers of
> pornographic material to comply with record-keeping.
>
> Now, things got complicated when DOJ added an entirely new class of
> producers you speak of "secondary producers", anyone who "publishes,
> reproduces, or reissues" explicit material. This is where things get
> complicated. What followed was a circuit court decision, and other
> proceedings, that ruled these requirements were facially invalid because
> they imposed an overbroad burden on legitimate, constitutionally protected
> speech.
>
>
That's pretty important then, right? Because IIRC circuit court decisions
inform judgement in later such cases - and the only way the legal
interpretation can be rejudged is in a full appeals court?

Tom
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Theo10011]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> No. Record-keeping is required by law for images whose production involved
> actual people engaged in sexually explicit conduct, meaning "actual or
> simulated—(i) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital,
> anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite
> sex; (ii) bestiality; (iii) masturbation; (iv) sadistic or masochistic
> abuse; or (v) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any
> person."
>
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256
>
> If creation of the image did not involve real people engaged in such
> conduct, no record-keeping requirements apply.
>
> Note that while the Wikimedia Foundation, due to Section 230(c) safe
> harbor provisions, does not have a record-keeping duty here, my layman's
> reading of http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257 is that every 
> *individual
> contributor* who
>
> – uploads an image depicting real people engaged in sexually explicit
> conduct, or
> – inserts such an image in Wikipedia, or
> – manages such content on Wikimedia sites,
>
> thereby becomes a "secondary producer" required to keep and maintain
> records documenting the performers' age, name, and consent, with failure to
> do so punishable by up to five years in prison.
>
> Note that this includes anyone, say, inserting an image or video of
> masturbation in a Wikipedia article or categorising it in Commons without
> having a written record of the name, age and consent of the person shown on
> file.
>
> I've asked Philippe Beaudette to confirm that this reading is correct. He
> has said that while they cannot provide legal advice to individual editors,
> they will put someone to work on that, and that it will be a month or so
> before they can come back to us.
>


Let me try and give the whole context here. Actually,
the Wikipedia article[1] on this subject explains the situation much
better. I'm sure, finer legal minds reading this can correct where I go
wrong. I am a layman too, and this is my inference from reading about the
subject.

The law you are speaking of is part of Child Protection and Obscenity
Enforcement Act of 1988 or and the guideline enforcing them is 2257
Regulations. It actually placed the burden of record keeping, on the
primary producers, as in, who is "involved in hiring, contracting for,
managing, or otherwise arranging for, the participation of the performers
depicted,". In its original form, it only placed the burden on producers of
pornographic material to comply with record-keeping.

Now, things got complicated when DOJ added an entirely new class of
producers you speak of "secondary producers", anyone who "publishes,
reproduces, or reissues" explicit material. This is where things get
complicated. What followed was a circuit court decision, and other
proceedings, that ruled these requirements were facially invalid because
they imposed an overbroad burden on legitimate, constitutionally protected
speech.

The real question now becomes about its enforcement. Much of the sexual
material on the internet, even depiction of works of art several hundred
years old, any form of nudity even for educational, anatomical purposes
might fall under this law (lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic
area of any person). The burden on service providers, and hosting websites
would be massive to speak of - consider the implication on Facebook for
example, or Flickr, or even Google, being responsible for linking every
single image in results, they don't possess the proper records of the
depicted subjects, which might very well number into tens of millions.
Maybe that's why, it has been implemented only in one specific case
primarily based on the new 2257 law and related legislation. The case was
against Joe Francis, the originator of "Girls gone Wild" series. Also, of
relevance might be that the series in question only depicted nudity, and
not any sexual act. Even these charges were for the most part dropped later
on.

Regards
Theo

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_USC_2257
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Nathan  wrote:

> I'm not convinced that sexual images is a gender gap issue. But my
> non-expert opinion is that there is, or ought to be, a degree of feminist
> interest in the problems of model releases and age verification. I've
> always thought it strange that Andreas, and privatemusings before him,
> focused primarily on the very low probability that someone might
> accidentally stumble onto sexual images... to the near exclusion of the far
> more important problem, to me, of hosting potentially thousands of images
> where the subject is unknown, unaware of the publication of the image and
> did not (and would not have) given permission for such publication. For
> most images on Commons of a sexual nature there is no model release and no
> age verification, but despite the Board resolution and the lip-service paid
> to personality rights on Commons, there have been only minimal efforts to
> rectify this problem.
>


Nathan, I agree with you that the consent issue is a huge problem.
Wikimedia is allowing people to upload revenge porn (= sexual images of
ex-partners) anonymously, without models' knowledge or consent, and editors
then use this kind of material to illustrate articles.

Editors are pinching hundreds of private sexual images off Flickr and
upload them to Wikimedia sites without asking Flickr account owners for
consent, in violation of the board resolution.

The March/April thread on personality rights I started on the Commons list
was exactly about that:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2012-March/006409.html

Even after that post it took over a month to get these images deleted,
after a total of six or seven deletion nominations: even though Commons *knew
all along* that the models did not want these images on Wikimedia.

Commons has images here

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Lesbic_use_of_nipple_clamps_and_strap-on_dildo.jpg

from an uploader who has written on Commons,

First of all, I am the photographer of this photo [dianaoftripoli]. I'm not
even sure WHY this photo is on Wikimedia. the photo was posted on my Flickr
account. This is in violation of how I want the photo to be used, so I do
want it to be taken DOWN. For the record, no one involved in that project
was underage. This conversation is completely idiotic. It was a college
final project and of course it was taken with a high quality camera and of
course it doesn't match my normal life because it is ART. You're all crazy.
REMOVE this photo from this site and all others that I have taken. If you
need to contact me, contact me directly via Flickr. Do NOT publish any more
of my photos on another site WITHOUT my consent. PERIOD. FURTHERMORE, your
posting of my photography AND COMMENTARY are in VIOLATION of my PRIVATE
life and those who are in the photographs. You all should be ASHAMED. Bunch
of speculative meddlers. Find something better to do and respect other
people's privacy.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons%3ADeletion_requests%2FFile%3ATasting_a_condom.jpg&diff=67108318&oldid=66957446

and Commons is STILL refusing to delete her images. I did my best to get
them deleted, bringing them to the attention of the Wikimedia UK chair, who
nominated them for deletion. To no avail (well, one of the images was
deleted; it was a simulated image of a naked woman having her throat cut in
a bathtub). Any help on consent issues is very much appreciated, Nathan.

For a list of current nudity and sexuality-related Commons deletion
requests, see
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nudity_and_sexuality-related_deletion_requests

I am sorry – this thread may now actually be in danger of derailing the
discussion. If people want to debate this further, but consensus is that
the discussion should take place elsewhere, we could perhaps create a page
on Meta.

Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Caroline Becker wrote:

>
>
>> The Flickr account has been closed down (usually for breach of Flickr's
>> terms of service). Note that there are no 18 USC 2257 records demonstrating
>> that the persons depicted were 18 or over. According to my understanding of
>> US law, any Wikimedian who uploads or inserts such an image without having
>> documentation of model age, name, and publication consent is in breach of
>> US law; see discussion at
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Philippe_(WMF)#Implications_of_2257_record_keeping_requirements_for_editors.3F
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>
> Does it also apply to artwork of nude underages, such as
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Boy_playing_jonchets_by_Julien-Charles_Dubois
>  or
> the trillion paintings with nude babies ?
>


No. Record-keeping is required by law for images whose production involved
actual people engaged in sexually explicit conduct, meaning "actual or
simulated—(i) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital,
anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite
sex; (ii) bestiality; (iii) masturbation; (iv) sadistic or masochistic
abuse; or (v) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any
person."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256

If creation of the image did not involve real people engaged in such
conduct, no record-keeping requirements apply.

Note that while the Wikimedia Foundation, due to Section 230(c) safe harbor
provisions, does not have a record-keeping duty here, my layman's reading
of http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257 is that every *individual
contributor* who

– uploads an image depicting real people engaged in sexually explicit
conduct, or
– inserts such an image in Wikipedia, or
– manages such content on Wikimedia sites,

thereby becomes a "secondary producer" required to keep and maintain
records documenting the performers' age, name, and consent, with failure to
do so punishable by up to five years in prison.

Note that this includes anyone, say, inserting an image or video of
masturbation in a Wikipedia article or categorising it in Commons without
having a written record of the name, age and consent of the person shown on
file.

I've asked Philippe Beaudette to confirm that this reading is correct. He
has said that while they cannot provide legal advice to individual editors,
they will put someone to work on that, and that it will be a month or so
before they can come back to us.

Andreas
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Nathan]

I'm not convinced that sexual images is a gender gap issue. But my
non-expert opinion is that there is, or ought to be, a degree of feminist
interest in the problems of model releases and age verification. I've
always thought it strange that Andreas, and privatemusings before him,
focused primarily on the very low probability that someone might
accidentally stumble onto sexual images... to the near exclusion of the far
more important problem, to me, of hosting potentially thousands of images
where the subject is unknown, unaware of the publication of the image and
did not (and would not have) given permission for such publication. For
most images on Commons of a sexual nature there is no model release and no
age verification, but despite the Board resolution and the lip-service paid
to personality rights on Commons, there have been only minimal efforts to
rectify this problem.
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Michelle Gallaway]

I think this comment completely misses the point.  Yes, if you go to
articles on "deep throating" or "tit torture", you will surprise surprise,
see images of those things.  I don't see this as a big problem.  The
problem would be if the same images were showing up on articles unrelated
to sexuality, but that does not appear to be the case at all from the
examples that you and Larry Sanger have put forward.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Here are results of a multimedia search for "human female" in Wikipedia
> (NSFW):
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=250&offset=100&redirs=0&profile=images&search=human+female
>
>
> Did you look at the examples Larry mentioned in his post?
>
> There are many more: e.g.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-throating, viewed more than 50,000
> times this month (this actually had three rather than two images until a
> couple of days ago:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deep-throating&oldid=494580914)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_torture (16,000+ views this month)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukkake (120,000+ views this month)
>
> Basically, if you go through the articles listed in en:WP templates like
> the sexual slang template, the Outline of BDSM template etc. you will come
> across many such articles, all with high viewing figures.
>
> An example from de:WP:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vaginalverkehr&oldid=97830340
>
> Source:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/46879013@N03/4414846436/
> http://www.flickr.com/people/46879013@N03
>
> The Flickr account has been closed down (usually for breach of Flickr's
> terms of service). Note that there are no 18 USC 2257 records demonstrating
> that the persons depicted were 18 or over. According to my understanding of
> US law, any Wikimedian who uploads or inserts such an image without having
> documentation of model age, name, and publication consent is in breach of
> US law; see discussion at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Philippe_(WMF)#Implications_of_2257_record_keeping_requirements_for_editors.3F
>
> Andreas
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Laura Hale  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Kim Osman  wrote:
>>
>>> My first thought was that this indeed is a red herring in terms of
>>> addressing the gendergap, however in my limited editing experience I do at
>>> times feel like Wikipedia is a boys' club, and perhaps the prevalence of
>>> pornography goes some way to an imagining of what is hanging on the
>>> clubhouse walls
>>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I edit Wikipedia a lot.  I probably spend more time than I should editing
>> Wikipedia.  Can I ask where there is a prevalence of pornography on
>> Wikipedia?  I honestly can't think of a single time I have come across it
>> when I wasn't directly looking for it.  Misogny to a degree, yes.
>> Discrimination against women's topics and topics outside the United States,
>> youbetcha.  But pornography?  Maybe I just don't edit articles where
>> pornography is very prevalent?
>>
>> --
>> twitter: purplepopple
>> blog: ozziesport.com
>>
>>
>> ___
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>
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>
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Cynthia Ashley-Nelson]

I've found this line of dialogue interesting but have hesitated to
participate. When I first started editing Wikipedia, I arrived with a goal
to bring some balance to many of the articles pertaining to domestic and
international human trafficking and pornography. I soon realized that
pornography and closely aligned topics were very heated. I encountered
vulgar language, gender discrimination, objectification of women, and a
less than hospitable environment that taught everybody to refrain from
being dicks. I left for three years with no plans to return.

My professional background includes speaking before local, state, and
national legislative commissions and government houses on these issues, in
addition to obscenity and the secondary harmful affects of pornography. I
come from a long line of preachers, judges, and family members that are
serving as city mayors, county commissioners, a US Senator, and state
legislators. At the same time, I have many close friends that currently
write, produce, and star in adult films. Then there are my stripper and
hooker friends. I also work with global agencies and government officials
to assist individuals escaping human trafficking situations from throughout
Southeast Asia, Western Europe, and North America. This is my area of
expertise. And the area of my life that I have long maintained separately
from Wikipedia.

While I say this hesitantly, I am one example of an editor that left due to
the divide between the genders represented on Wikipedia.

All that said, there is a lack of knowledge and ability on Wikipedia to
differentiate between pornography and obscenity. Pornography is defined as
erotic content or material that is intended or created to cause sexual
arousal or excitement. That said, erotic content that depicts or displays
sexual organs, sexual intercourse, or sexual acts *may not* always be
defined as pornography. This is the case with content and materials
presented for *educational purposes*.

(In the US, outside of child pornography, pornography may only be
regulated, based on the identified secondary harmful affects on the
community in which it is created and/or distributed.)

In the US, obscenity can be legislated according to local, regional, state
laws. It is up to each community to determine what constitutes obscenity.
And these laws can often change over the years, based on the norms of the
individuals that vote to pass or fail the proposed regulations. At the same
time, obscenity is defined differently throughout the world from one
country and culture to the next.

Due to the global nature of Wikipedia, I doubt that we will ever be able to
establish guidelines regarding the presence of pornography. The rule of
thumb is that which is determined to be educational. This differs from one
person and one culture to the next. What one Wikipedian may find obscene,
another may not. This can only be determined by the community. Is an image
merely presented to bring shock and awe? Entice? Arouse? Or is it presented
for educational purposes? Heck, even an image of arousal may be presented
for educational purposes. The issue of pornography can really only be
determined on a case by case basis.

As I earlier stated, I left Wikipedia for three years due to the vulgarity
and discrimination against women. I returned because I enjoy writing during
my spare time. Wikipedia is reflective of our global culture, no matter
where you choose to spend your time. When it comes right down to it, if I
don't want to see it, as in my daily life, all I have to do is stay out of
the Wikipedia red light district.

Cindy




On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:17 AM, Theo10011  wrote:

> I wanted to ask a question to the members of the list-
>
> Is all pornography inherently bad, against women, perhaps, Anti-feminist
> but does it degrade women just by its sheer existence? Are there women who
> either a) don't have strong opinions on it b) are supportive of some form
> of it.
>
> For the record, Most forms of nudity, erotica, paintings, books, even
> video games, are capable of being classified as pornographic.
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Laura Hale  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Kim Osman  wrote:
>>
>>> My first thought was that this indeed is a red herring in terms of
>>> addressing the gendergap, however in my limited editing experience I do at
>>> times feel like Wikipedia is a boys' club, and perhaps the prevalence of
>>> pornography goes some way to an imagining of what is hanging on the
>>> clubhouse walls
>>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I edit Wikipedia a lot.  I probably spend more time than I should editing
>> Wikipedia.  Can I ask where there is a prevalence of pornography on
>> Wikipedia?  I honestly can't think of a single time I have come across it
>> when I wasn't directly looking for it.  Misogny to a degree, yes.
>> Discrimination against women's topics and topics outside the United States,
>> youbetcha.  But pornography?  Maybe I just don't edit articles 

Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Theo10011]

I wanted to ask a question to the members of the list-

Is all pornography inherently bad, against women, perhaps, Anti-feminist
but does it degrade women just by its sheer existence? Are there women who
either a) don't have strong opinions on it b) are supportive of some form
of it.

For the record, Most forms of nudity, erotica, paintings, books, even video
games, are capable of being classified as pornographic.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Laura Hale  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Kim Osman  wrote:
>
>> My first thought was that this indeed is a red herring in terms of
>> addressing the gendergap, however in my limited editing experience I do at
>> times feel like Wikipedia is a boys' club, and perhaps the prevalence of
>> pornography goes some way to an imagining of what is hanging on the
>> clubhouse walls
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> I edit Wikipedia a lot.  I probably spend more time than I should editing
> Wikipedia.  Can I ask where there is a prevalence of pornography on
> Wikipedia?  I honestly can't think of a single time I have come across it
> when I wasn't directly looking for it.  Misogny to a degree, yes.
> Discrimination against women's topics and topics outside the United States,
> youbetcha.  But pornography?  Maybe I just don't edit articles where
> pornography is very prevalent?


I agree with Laura.

Even in pornography related articles, I've rarely seen discussion that
was characteristic of a "Boy's club" while degrading or objectifying women
in any shape or form. The impression here might be, that its all teenagers
working on their fantasies in not as-visible pages, but that is hardly the
case. They are few active editors that only edit a single topic or interact
with one subset of the ecosystem; the idea that they constantly mask and
carry around their hateful misogynistic tendencies, to only let loose on
pornography articles, is just plain wrong.

Pornography has always had 3 critics - Law, religion and feminism. In this
age, coloring all 3 with the same generalized brush-stroke would be
mistake; opinions mature and change over time, tolerance increases in all 3
forms. Law had it's problem with pornography, mostly descended from century
old common law, until people started realizing they don't have to be bound
by morality of old dead white men, from 300 years ago and they could decide
for themselves. The same law in its vague interpretation outlawed
homosexuality and the existence of homosexuals, in half of the world, and
it still does. Religion had its problem with pornography but then we came
out of the dark ages, art, even iconic religious art flirted with the
boundaries of morality. The renaissance happened, with an explosion of
culture and light and beauty, would Michelangelo's David have been
pornographic in its age? or does it speak to more tolerance than what you
might find even today. Would it have mattered if it was Aphrodite or The
birth of Venus being ridiculed today. Adherence to certain practices,
decreased and cultural tolerance increased - We just seem to be moving back
in some cases. Then, the feminist movement, once all pornography was
characterized as harmful and objectification of women, until there were
dissenting voices, the sex-positive feminist movement for example. I once
heard a plausible argument about the role pornography played in the sexual
revolution for women that led to Women's lib in the US. I've also heard
that the strongest critics within the feminist movement, would be equally
if not more critical of censorship, which, incidentally is suggested on
this list often as a solution.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Thomas Morton]

On 31 May 2012 09:23, Caroline Becker  wrote:

>
>
>> The Flickr account has been closed down (usually for breach of Flickr's
>> terms of service). Note that there are no 18 USC 2257 records demonstrating
>> that the persons depicted were 18 or over. According to my understanding of
>> US law, any Wikimedian who uploads or inserts such an image without having
>> documentation of model age, name, and publication consent is in breach of
>> US law; see discussion at
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Philippe_(WMF)#Implications_of_2257_record_keeping_requirements_for_editors.3F
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>
> Does it also apply to artwork of nude underages, such as
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Boy_playing_jonchets_by_Julien-Charles_Dubois
>  or
> the trillion paintings with nude babies ?
>

No, because that's not a sexual image (which is what 2257 relates to).

Tom
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Caroline Becker]

>
> The Flickr account has been closed down (usually for breach of Flickr's
> terms of service). Note that there are no 18 USC 2257 records demonstrating
> that the persons depicted were 18 or over. According to my understanding of
> US law, any Wikimedian who uploads or inserts such an image without having
> documentation of model age, name, and publication consent is in breach of
> US law; see discussion at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Philippe_(WMF)#Implications_of_2257_record_keeping_requirements_for_editors.3F
>
> Andreas
>

Does it also apply to artwork of nude underages, such as
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Boy_playing_jonchets_by_Julien-Charles_Dubois
or
the trillion paintings with nude babies ?
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