RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
>
> > I am as interested in making Axion's incubation status clear as you
are.
>
> > Some sort of "incubation status" notice [or logo]
>
> You mean like
http://incubator.apache.org/images/apache-incubator-logo.png,
> along with a well-placed disclaimer like found at
> http://ws.apache.org/jaxme/ and http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/?

Yes.  Weren't those essentially my examples?

Digging a bit futher, I note there is suggested text in the "Incubation
Policy" docs.

> Rodney, I am sympathetic to your build issues.

And I believe that you are.

> OTOH, there is the branding issue that Tetsuya raised, ironically making
> the opposite point than he intended.

I'm not sure Tetsuya's concerns are the same as mine here. In fact, I'm
pretty sure there not.

> You have certain technical issues related to your build process

> (honestly, temporary page ranking is not something I rate highly in
> context).

(trouble is it's not always so "temporary", especially when you find
yourself on a blacklist or penalty list)

> Do you have a proposal that would make everyone happy?

Apparently not yet ;)

> Would a symlink arrangement help resolve the build and URL issues?  For
> example, you could build and install the site as normal, but .htaccess
> would redirect HTTP requests to the incubator domain, which would have a
> link to your file structure.

I think it might. We may need to poke at that from both the db and
incubator infrastrure perspectives a bit more to figure it out, but it
seems like something like that should work.  The DB Project doesn't have
anything like incubator-site, its generated files are not stored in CVS,
so a simple .htaccess redirect might suffice after all.  We'd want to
ensure two things: (1) that users can't get to http://db.apache.org/axion
without being redirected to http://incubator.apache.org/, and (2) that
updates to axion's site docs, or to relevant bits of the general db-site
docs, get reflected in the http://incubator.apache.org/axion site in a
reasonable timeframe.  The impact this will have on db-shared pages like
http://db.apache.org/whoweare.html and http://db.apache.org/mail.html are
of some concern, but this seems like an issue for the DB, not Incubator,
Project to work out.

I'm also a little concerned that this domain shift may wreak havoc on
relative links (since the DB site build will assume the host is
db.apache.org), but I suppose we can slog through those one way or
another.  (It's the little issues like these that make me believe this is
creating more effort than will (the ASF) gain from it.)


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Re: donation of project

[Matt Liotta]

I am personally very interested in this, having worked on a similar 
project. In any case, it's a very interesting thing for Java in 
general to have such a component opensourced. Because of this, I will 
see to do all I can to help you.

Thanks.

As for accepting it at Apache, we decide not on technical merits as 
much as we look for a community that will keep driving the development 
effort on it.

In particular, this document may be of help:
  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html
If you believe that the proposal is not in line with this as it 
doesn't have a community that can cater for it, feel free to contact 
me directly  to see if we can find the right way to opensource it.

Indeed, the proposal doesn't seem to be inline with the document in two 
ways. First, there is no active development community for it. Second, 
while the project was originally commercial in nature, we are no longer 
doing development on it as it currently suits our needs. That is not to 
say that we won't do bug fixes and other maintenance to it, but we just 
don't have any active development happening on it anymore.

-Matt

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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Roy T. Fielding]

If this isn't constructive criticism, I don't know
what is.  Axion was told one thing, and now that
incubation time has arrive, they're being told
another.  That's the critical part.  I think we should
honor the original plan of incubation.  That's the
constructive part.
I don't believe for a second that your interpretation of Noel's
message is even remotely accurate, let alone an opinion of the
incubator PMC.  Please drop this argument NOW!
I have absolutely no tolerance for the whiny-ass bullshit that
has been descriptive of Axion so far.  Please concentrate on
filling-out the documentation of the IP transfer so that the
project can become part of the DB project.  IT IS NOT PART OF DB
AT THIS POINT IN TIME, AND WILL NOT BECOME PART OF DB UNTIL THE
DOCUMENTATION IS PRESENT IN THE INCUBATOR CVS.  If you don't like
the web site restriction, then don't publish a website until the
incubator has transferred Axion to DB.
The reason for this policy is because prior incubated groups
violated the trust we gave them.  Feel free to delete their sites
if you feel the need for ancestral equality.
Roy

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Re: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon

[Tetsuya Kitahata]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:12:36 -0500
(Subject: RE: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon)
Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> > it would be nice to create "We are under incubation" icon
> See: http://incubator.apache.org/images/apache-incubator-logo.png

No, No. I meant "We are under incubation" icon, not 
"Apache Incubator" icon. However, if "Apache Incubator" icon
suffices the Incubator PMC members gratifications,
it should be used instead.
(I am not sure whether users can definitely imagine that XX project
is under incubation or not -- by glancing at this "Apache Incubator"
icon)

Good luck.

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> > Let's not pull a bait-and-switch.
> 
> Considering that we're trying to work with axion,
> and all projects, to
> minimize the effort required, let's keep the
> discussion constructive, shall
> we?  :-)
> 
>   --- Noel

If this isn't constructive criticism, I don't know
what is.  Axion was told one thing, and now that
incubation time has arrive, they're being told
another.  That's the critical part.  I think we should
honor the original plan of incubation.  That's the
constructive part.  

- Morgan

=
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org

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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> Axion specifically asked for assurance that they would be
> incubated at their final destination.  They received that
> assurance in the db.apache.org proposal and from you
> personally as a member of the Incubator PMC

To quote myself from that message:

Axion:
> > Is it possible to "incubate" a project (whatever that means)
> > from its current location

Me:
> IMO, no.  But I believe that its infrastructure could be setup
> in its final destination.

Ah ... Now I understand why that message kepting coming up.  I admit to
being a bit bothered that what is clearly one person expressing an opinion
would be interpreted as a binding mandate for the PMC, but there you have
it.

> Let's not pull a bait-and-switch.

Considering that we're trying to work with axion, and all projects, to
minimize the effort required, let's keep the discussion constructive, shall
we?  :-)

--- Noel


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RE: [RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Martin Cooper:
> Noel J. Bergman:
> > I see RT used on a few lists, I don't consider RT to convey a useful
> > semantic.

> The first time I saw RT was in a message from Sam (Ruby) on the Gump list,
> where he expanded it as "Random Thought", meaning something along the
lines
> of "I just had an idea...".

But isn't that like the whole point of a new e-mail that isn't a reply?  :-)
I don't know about you, but when I see a message with a fresh new topic, I
figure someone has an idea to express, therefore making [RT] redundant, IMO.
YMMV.

--- Noel


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Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Martin Cooper]

"Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Rodney Waldhoff wrote:



> > I don't know what "AISI" stands for, but the way.
> > For that matter, what's RT stand for in [RT]?
>
> AISI == As I See It
> RT == Random Topic
>
> I see RT used on a few lists, I don't consider RT to convey a useful
> semantic.

The first time I saw RT was in a message from Sam (Ruby) on the Gump list,
where he expanded it as "Random Thought", meaning something along the lines
of "I just had an idea...".

--
Martin Cooper


>
> --- Noel




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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> 
>  
> 

If we can table the future location of other
incubating projects for a moment, I'm kind of irked
that you clipped what I consider to be Rod's most
important point concerning Axion's incubation.  Axion
specifically asked for assurance that they would be
incubated at their final destination.  They received
that assurance in the db.apache.org proposal and from
you personally as a member of the Incubator PMC
(here's that URL again:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg01873.html).

Let's not pull a bait-and-switch.  This is a small
price to pay, and it's important to at least several
of the Axion committers (myself included).  For my
part as project sponsor, I would vote +1 for forgoing
the temporary incubator URL as soon as my PMC
membership is official.

- Morgan

=
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org

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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

 

> This notion of "quit asking for special treatment" would carry more weight
> if this would make Axion an exception among incubating projects.

The idea that no project should be grandfathered is not one of your stronger
arguments.  :-)

> No one is saying "take it easier on me".  What we are saying is
> that this particular issue is important to us, for reasons I've
> enumerated elsewhere on this thread.

I appreciate your concerns.  I don't really care about some of them as short
term issues, but I don't discard that you do.

> I am as interested in making Axion's incubation status clear as you are.

> Some sort of "incubation status" notice [or logo]

You mean like http://incubator.apache.org/images/apache-incubator-logo.png,
along with a well-placed disclaimer like found at
http://ws.apache.org/jaxme/ and http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/?

Rodney, I am sympathetic to your build issues.  OTOH, there is the branding
issue that Tetsuya raised, ironically making the opposite point than he
intended.  That branding is not as clear when the resources are not in the
Incubator, but we have already addressed mailing lists and CVS resources,
leaving only the web-site within the domain.  For whatever reason, people do
seem to notice the domain more clearly than they read the paragraph of
boilerplate on the page.

You have certain technical issues related to your build process (honestly,
temporary page ranking is not something I rate highly in context).  Do you
have a proposal that would make everyone happy?  Would a symlink arrangement
help resolve the build and URL issues?  For example, you could build and
install the site as normal, but .htaccess would redirect HTTP requests to
the incubator domain, which would have a link to your file structure.

--- Noel


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RE: [RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> AISI, the reason there was no summary is that the vote was halted on the
> grounds that it was improper.  Because DB had already voted to accept the
> project, the Incubator does not vote to accept it (ballot 1).  If you want
> to view ballot 2 as a vote to release it, I guess you could say it failed.
> But I think we tried moving from the pro forma phase to actually trying to
> work with you.  :-)
>
>   --- Noel

> The notion of automatically accepting projects already accepted by a
> sponsor seems like a good one.  It's not very clear from the process
> docs that this is the case.

As said before, the docs are in need of a major overhaul.  Hopefully,
somewhere in the axion or near axion-graduation timeframe.

> As a point of clarification, does that mean that someone with the
> appropriate karma can create a new podling via lazy consensus

There are *very* few people with the karma and know-how to create a
project's resources.  So the "karma" aspect of your question is rather moot.
However, we have established the policy that if another PMC asks the
Incubator to accept a project, we will do so.

> I don't know what "AISI" stands for, but the way.
> For that matter, what's RT stand for in [RT]?

AISI == As I See It
RT == Random Topic

I see RT used on a few lists, I don't consider RT to convey a useful
semantic.

--- Noel


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RE: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon

[Noel J. Bergman]

> it would be nice to create "We are under incubation" icon

See: http://incubator.apache.org/images/apache-incubator-logo.png

--- Noel

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RE: [RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
>
> > I've noticed that a disturbing number of VOTE threads on this list never
> > have a corresponding RESULT summary, so here's the result for the vote I
> > recently called:
>
> AISI, the reason there was no summary is that the vote was halted on the
> grounds that it was improper.  Because DB had already voted to accept the
> project, the Incubator does not vote to accept it (ballot 1).  If you want
> to view ballot 2 as a vote to release it, I guess you could say it failed.
> But I think we tried moving from the pro forma phase to actually trying to
> work with you.  :-)
>
>   --- Noel

Acked.

The notion of automatically accepting projects already accepted by a
sponsor seems like a good one.  It's not very clear from the process docs
that this is the case.  Indeed, it's not very clear from the process docs
that a VOTE is ever required, it just says that the PMC "may" require a
vote.  As a point of clarification, does that mean that someone with the
appropriate karma can create a new podling via lazy consensus (i.e., just
do it until someone pipes up with a -1)?

I don't know what "AISI" stands for, but the way.  For that matter, what's
RT stand for in [RT]?

- Rod 

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Why incubator domain for sites

[Noel J. Bergman]

** Note: this has nothing to do with Axion (the current context),
** who by all appearances would be eagerly working to graduate.

Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> -- Branding issue --

You are missing the point.  The Incubator IS a brand.  A brand that says
that the project is NOT YET endorsed by the Apache Software Foundation.

> I am afraid "incubator" subdomain would have a big potential
> putting the image as if it were "immatured"/"childish" in
> mind of users.

Thank you for confirming the psychological impact of the incubator domain.
If you are distinguishing based solely upon which domain, you are making the
case for the incubator domain.  It is working as intended.

If a project wants the endorsement of the ASF, they should endeavor to
graduate, and not sit in the Incubator.  Some projects appear to be a bit
too comfortable here, and are not focusing as much as perhaps they could on
the things they need to do to graduate.

--- Noel


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Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Morgan Delagrange]

Actually I think 72 hours have to pass after my
nomination is recognized by a Board member (or
something like that).  So, I have a few more days
until I'm officially recognized by the Board.  

--- Rodney Waldhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> As I understand
>
,
> Morgan Delegrange is now a member of the Incubator
> PMC.  I believe he
> mentioned that he's subscribed to the PMC list, but
> it looks like
>  has yet
> to be updated.  Now
> that I've got forrest running locally, I'd be happy
> to make this change to
> the .cwiki file if not to the site itself, assuming
> no one objects.
> 


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http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org

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RE: [RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> I've noticed that a disturbing number of VOTE threads on this list never
> have a corresponding RESULT summary, so here's the result for the vote I
> recently called:

AISI, the reason there was no summary is that the vote was halted on the
grounds that it was improper.  Because DB had already voted to accept the
project, the Incubator does not vote to accept it (ballot 1).  If you want
to view ballot 2 as a vote to release it, I guess you could say it failed.
But I think we tried moving from the pro forma phase to actually trying to
work with you.  :-)

--- Noel


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[RESULT][VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

I've noticed that a disturbing number of VOTE threads on this list never
have a corresponding RESULT summary, so here's the result for the vote I
recently called:

"Ballot 1: Accept Axion for incubation" passes with at least 5 binding +1s
(Noel Bergman, Davanum Srinivas, Greg Stein, Nicola Ken Barozzi, Leo
Simons) and no -1s.

"Ballot 2: Graduate Axion immediately" has not passed, with one binding +1
(Jason van Zyl) and one binding -1 (Greg Stein)

As I understand
,
Morgan Delegrange is now a member of the Incubator PMC.  I believe he
mentioned that he's subscribed to the PMC list, but it looks like
 has yet to be updated.  Now
that I've got forrest running locally, I'd be happy to make this change to
the .cwiki file if not to the site itself, assuming no one objects.

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> Since that first post hasn't drawn any response in over a week, let me try
> this again, this time under a VOTE thread, and with an alternative in
> light of the recent discussion:
>
> 
> Ballot 1:
> 
> The Axion Database project has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
> project, and the DB PMC has accepted that proposal. (See below for the
> proposal and additional information.)
>
>  [ ] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
>  [ ]  0 Abstain
>  [ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation, I don't believe it should become a
> part of the ASF.
> 
>
>
> 
> Ballot 2:
> 
> Since Axion is to be a sub-project of the Apache DB project and is
> currently comprised of long standing ASF members and committers, and since
> some members of the Incubator PMC have recently expressed an interest in
> only incubating what is to become top level projects, should Axion
> immediately move to be under the control of the Apache DB project, with
> the appropriate legal checkpoints to be recorded here within the central
> Incubator repository?
>
>  [ ] +1 Yes, let the Apache DB project handle it (i.e., "graduate" it
> immediately)
>  [ ]  0 Abstain
>  [ ] -1 No, if Axion is to become a part of the ASF, it should be
> incubated here first.
> 
>
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
>
> > The Axion Database project [1] has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
> > project [2] and submitted a proposal [3] to the DB PMC to this effect.
> >
> > The Apache DB project has accepted this proposal [4] and Morgan
> > Delegrange, an ASF member and Axion committer, has volunteered [5] to act
> > as the incubation "mentor".
> >
> > Following the Incubator's "Incubation Policy" documentation [6], the
> > Apache DB project is now requesting that the Incubator PMC take on Axion
> > as a new "podling".
> >
> > According to the Incubator guidelines, "The Incubator PMC MAY immediately
> > accept the Candidate, or may (at the discretion of the Incubator PMC)
> > require a successful VOTE by the Incubator PMC."  So as I understand it,
> > the ball is now in your (or soon to be "our") court.
> >
> > For your convenience, the Axion proposal is included below.  Note in
> > particular section 3, which enumerates the resources to be created in
> > order to move forward with the transition to Apache.
> >
> > Non-normatively, there is working plan for the migration at
> > .
> >
> > [1] See 
> > [2] See
> > 
> > and  for the
> > VOTE thread and RESULT)
> > [3] See , or see below.
> > [4] See  and
> > 
> > [5] See  or
> > 
> > [6] See
> > 
> >  to read the proposal, or see below.
> >
> > - Rod 
> >
> > copy of proposal follows
> > =
> >
> > Proposal for Creating an Axion sub-project within the Apache DB Project
> >
> > (0) Rationale and Consideration of Sub-Project Criteria
> >
> > Axion is a relational database engine currently developed and released
> > under an Apache/BSD-like license.
> >
> > While it has not yet had a formal 1.0 release, Axion is not a new project.
> > Axion has had three binary "milestone" releases, the first of which was
> > released over a year ago (9 July 2002) [1].  The project has been under
> > active development since early 2002 [2] and has shown regular and diverse
> > growth in both the devel

Re: problems running forrest

[Rodney Waldhoff]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> IIUC you're just unlucky, as just yesterday a commit broke CVS forrest,
> with the error you show.
>
> I'll see to fix it today and publish the website for you if you make
> changes (I had done so last time).
>

Seems to work now.  Thanks.

- Rod 

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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Tetsuya Kitahata]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:35:47 -0800 (PST)
Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> Immediately jumping to a "because I said so" response, while
> potentially binding, isn't especially inviting, and quite frankly, is
> contrary to the "apache way" we're promising to nuture
> ().

Well said. Nice. I think it that the subdomain "incubator" would be
far from "attractive" for people who request incubation here.
-- Branding issue --

I can imagine why people would not want to use this subdomain
(incubator).
-- Every developers has *prides* on his/her codes and structures. --
I am afraid "incubator" subdomain would  have a big potential
putting the image as if it were "immatured"/"childish" in mind of users.
Most of the developers can not bear the "pain" of it, even though
the codes are *not* immatured.

Incubator folks! -- Catch the *heart* of developers! :-)

Allergy to this subdomain can be seen in this incubator.apache.org's
history --  here, there, everywhere -- it seems. 
Emotional Reaction -- there could be no "logical" explanations.
"Hate or Love", that's all.

Enforcing "incubator" subdomain really hurts developers' prides.
I don't want to hurt the Incubator PMC Chair's pride, as well.
I am sure that the ultimate goal of the "Apache Way" would be
to harmonize the "prides" of developers and users' "wants"/"needs".

Let's think this in more constructive way. I do believe you/we can.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> *Every* project comes here saying "well, but I'm different, I don't need
> this and that, come on, take it easier on me". So in the end, they are
> not different at all in this ;-)

Without trying to be flippant, I'd urge you to consider the possiblity
that every project really is different, and to assume otherwise would be a
mistake.

> We even had to make a FAQ for this:
> http://incubator.apache.org/faq.html#can_Incubation_be_skipped

No one is asking to skip incubation here.  No one is saying "take it
easier on me".  What we are saying is that this particular issue is
important to us, for reasons I've enumerated elsewhere on this thread.
That's why we asked for, and recieved, clarification on this point at
,
*prior to proposing* Axion for incubation.  That's why the Axion proposal
and associated documentation *specifically enumerates* the expected
resources, as requested by the Incubator PMC.

This notion of "quit asking for special treatment" would carry more weight
if this would make Axion an exception among incubating projects.  In fact
it is just the opposite.  All 6 currently projects (excluding Axion) that
are sponsored by someone other than the Incubator PMC are hosted at their
"destination" URL.

I am as interested in making Axion's incubation status clear as you are.

I'm also concerned about the issues the incubator.apache.org URL
introduces, as I discussed elsewhere on this thread.

Some sort of "incubation status" notice, like that found at the top of the
JAXP site, the bottom of the WSRP4J site, or the logo suggested by Tetsuya
on a separate thread, would seem to me to address the "making the status
clear" point as well if not better than a shifting hostname will, and will
avoid the issues I raised elsewhere on this thread.  If you disagree, then
let's put the issues on the table and work toward some mutually acceptable
solution.   Immediately jumping to a "because I said so" response, while
potentially binding, isn't especially inviting, and quite frankly, is
contrary to the "apache way" we're promising to nuture
().

 - Rod 

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Re: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon

[Tetsuya Kitahata]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:43:00 -0500
(Subject: Re: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon)
Brian McCallister wrote:

> Following the Axion thread and "it is important that users know it is 
> not a regular Apache project" concern -- I think this is an excellent 
> solution.
> 
> -Brian

If I remember correctly, Apache Maven (Apache DB Project
is using it) can put image icons on the left-side navigator,
easily.
Therefore, "We are under incubation" icon can be appeared
at all of the pages of Incubated-Apache Axion (DB), I imagine.
# Correct me, if i am wrong!

--

As far as mailing list would be concerned, how about this?

(Message Trailer)
=

The Apache Axion Project -- http://db.apache.org/axion/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- We are under Incubation  -- http://incubator.apache.org/ --
(5 lines)

Everybody would be able to find it easily that Apache Axion is
under incubation, in this way.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


> On Dec 23, 2003, at 10:35 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > From the conversation here, it came to my mind that it
> > would be nice to create "We are under incubation" icon,
> > which (sub)projects being incubated **should** use on their
> > websites.
> >
> > If "We are under incubation" icon would be really nice, each
> > (sub)projects wouldn't have to be resides
> > in incubator.apache.org (url/website), i guess.
> >
> > As for mailing list, "Message Trailer" (footer of each
> > messages) can substitute it.
> >
> > Random Thought. Sorry.
> >
> > -- Tetsuya. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon

[Rich Bowen]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

> 
> Hello,
> 
> From the conversation here, it came to my mind that it 
> would be nice to create "We are under incubation" icon,
> which (sub)projects being incubated **should** use on their
> websites.

Perhaps a baby chick, with Apache feathers, under a lightbulb.  Anyone
else ever raise chickens as a kid?

-- 
Rich Bowen - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Did I have the dream, or did the dream have me? (Rush - Nocturne)


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Re: [RT] "We are under incubation" icon

[Brian McCallister]

Following the Axion thread and "it is important that users know it is 
not a regular Apache project" concern -- I think this is an excellent 
solution.

-Brian

On Dec 23, 2003, at 10:35 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

Hello,

From the conversation here, it came to my mind that it
would be nice to create "We are under incubation" icon,
which (sub)projects being incubated **should** use on their
websites.
If "We are under incubation" icon would be really nice, each
(sub)projects wouldn't have to be resides
in incubator.apache.org (url/website), i guess.
As for mailing list, "Message Trailer" (footer of each
messages) can substitute it.
Random Thought. Sorry.

-- Tetsuya. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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[RT] "We are under incubation" icon

[Tetsuya Kitahata]

Hello,

From the conversation here, it came to my mind that it 
would be nice to create "We are under incubation" icon,
which (sub)projects being incubated **should** use on their
websites.

If "We are under incubation" icon would be really nice, each
(sub)projects wouldn't have to be resides 
in incubator.apache.org (url/website), i guess.

As for mailing list, "Message Trailer" (footer of each
messages) can substitute it.

Random Thought. Sorry.

-- Tetsuya. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

On a related note, consider the impact this has on search engines and
other robots.

The suggestion to use http://db.apache.org/axion as the normative URL, and
use an .htaccess based redirect to point those URLs to
http://incubator.apache.org/ creates a fairly subtle difference to the
human reader, but the difference to search engines is significant, in at
least two ways:

1) Search engines will consider the two URLs to be different sites, even
if they serve the same content.  This will penalize the project on engines
that rely upon link-based rankings.  Moreover, many engines penalize
redirects, especially "homepage" redirects, creating ongoing issues for
the project's search rankings.

2) When a user creates a link to Axion, they are virtually guaranteed
to grab a (temporary) incubator.apache.org url, whether by copying the url
from the "location" bar, or by meta-clicking on an internal link.   This
further diminishes the project's pagerank.

If the goal is to make it clear that a project is currently incubating,
it's not clear to me why we believe that something relatively subtle to a
human reader, like the change from "db" to "incubator" in the location
bar, to be a sufficient indication of the project's incubation status,
while something glaring, like a notice on top of every page, to be an
insufficient one.  The current approach seems fairly subtle to human eyes,
and introduces a number of undesirable emergent effects.


On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> Allow me to expound upon one of the issues this raises just a little
> bit, to help you see where this concern is coming from.
>
> The Apache DB project has a single, unified site build: a single
> (Maven/Reactor) process builds both the top level web site and the sites
> of the three existing subprojects.  Many of the top level pages pull in
> data from the sub-project pages to present a comprehensive view of the
> project.
>
> As a DB subproject, Axion should be integrated with this process.  While
> this isn't an enormously difficult task, there is a bit of configuration
> and integration to make it all happen.  Hosting the Axion site under
> incubator.apache.org means that Axion will need to set up a different
> site generation and publication process than the one it will use once it
> is part of the DB project. These processes will need to be
> replaced/reworked once Axion is promoted.  This creates a significant
> amount of unnecessary work for the development team.  Similarly,
> navigation of the Axion site will be different when integrated with the
> rest of the Apache DB site.
>
> If one of the functions of incubation is to help a project "settle in"
> to its new home, hosting Axion's web site at
> http://incubator.apache.org/ is contrary to this goal--it creates work
> that will have to be undone once the project has graduated.
>
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> > > Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> > > > Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> > > > > My concern isn't the difficulty of copying files from one directory to
> > > > > another.  It is pointing an exisiting user, developer and google-bot
> > > > > community from http://axion.tigris.org, then to
> > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/axion, then to http://db.apache.org/axion,
> > > > > all in a matter of weeks.  What does all this disruption buy for us?
> > >
> > > > I am also worried about the point raised by Rodney.
> > >
> > > There should be no need to "point" people at anything.  Asking around, I am
> > > told that the problem with tigris is simply that their system does not
> > > support adding redirects.  That is not the case here.  So, unfortunately in
> > > the case of axion, you do have to tell them to come to Apache, but we can
> > > handle it transparently once here.
> >
> > I understand the way .htaccess works.  I would still suggest this isn't
> > quite "transparent".  As evidence of this, I'll note that despite how
> > technically easy it is to "automatically" make this move, it has not been
> > done for the 5 or more projects currently hosted at their "destination"
> > URL.
> >
> > >
> > > Personally, I do not have a problem if you chose to publish
> > > db.apache.org/axion. as the normative URL for people.  Then in
> > > /www/db.apache.org/.htaccess, added:
> > >
> > >   Redirect Permanent /axion http://incubator.apache.org/axion
> > >
> > > People visiting the normal location would be automatically relocated to the
> > > URL within the Incubator (thus satisfying the request that we make the
> > > projects's status clear) for the duration of Incubation, however long or
> > > short a period.
> > >
> > > When the project promoted, you would remove it, and we'd add:
> > >
> > >   Redirect Permanent /axion http://db.apache.org/axion
> > >
> > > for anyone who had bookmarked the incubation site.  Thus we would continue
> > > to provide transparency and automation.
> > >
> > >   --- Noel
> > >
> >
> > - Rod 

RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

Allow me to expound upon one of the issues this raises just a little
bit, to help you see where this concern is coming from.

The Apache DB project has a single, unified site build: a single
(Maven/Reactor) process builds both the top level web site and the sites
of the three existing subprojects.  Many of the top level pages pull in
data from the sub-project pages to present a comprehensive view of the
project.

As a DB subproject, Axion should be integrated with this process.  While
this isn't an enormously difficult task, there is a bit of configuration
and integration to make it all happen.  Hosting the Axion site under
incubator.apache.org means that Axion will need to set up a different
site generation and publication process than the one it will use once it
is part of the DB project. These processes will need to be
replaced/reworked once Axion is promoted.  This creates a significant
amount of unnecessary work for the development team.  Similarly,
navigation of the Axion site will be different when integrated with the
rest of the Apache DB site.

If one of the functions of incubation is to help a project "settle in"
to its new home, hosting Axion's web site at
http://incubator.apache.org/ is contrary to this goal--it creates work
that will have to be undone once the project has graduated.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> > > Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> > > > My concern isn't the difficulty of copying files from one directory to
> > > > another.  It is pointing an exisiting user, developer and google-bot
> > > > community from http://axion.tigris.org, then to
> > > > http://incubator.apache.org/axion, then to http://db.apache.org/axion,
> > > > all in a matter of weeks.  What does all this disruption buy for us?
> >
> > > I am also worried about the point raised by Rodney.
> >
> > There should be no need to "point" people at anything.  Asking around, I am
> > told that the problem with tigris is simply that their system does not
> > support adding redirects.  That is not the case here.  So, unfortunately in
> > the case of axion, you do have to tell them to come to Apache, but we can
> > handle it transparently once here.
>
> I understand the way .htaccess works.  I would still suggest this isn't
> quite "transparent".  As evidence of this, I'll note that despite how
> technically easy it is to "automatically" make this move, it has not been
> done for the 5 or more projects currently hosted at their "destination"
> URL.
>
> >
> > Personally, I do not have a problem if you chose to publish
> > db.apache.org/axion. as the normative URL for people.  Then in
> > /www/db.apache.org/.htaccess, added:
> >
> >   Redirect Permanent /axion http://incubator.apache.org/axion
> >
> > People visiting the normal location would be automatically relocated to the
> > URL within the Incubator (thus satisfying the request that we make the
> > projects's status clear) for the duration of Incubation, however long or
> > short a period.
> >
> > When the project promoted, you would remove it, and we'd add:
> >
> >   Redirect Permanent /axion http://db.apache.org/axion
> >
> > for anyone who had bookmarked the incubation site.  Thus we would continue
> > to provide transparency and automation.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
>
> - Rod 
>
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>

-- 
- Rod 

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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
...
I understand the way .htaccess works.  I would still suggest this isn't
quite "transparent". 
There is a reason why we want incubating projects to be published under 
the incubator URL, and this reason has come out of the current 
incubations that do not have this rule.

Incubating projects are *not* fully accepted Apache projects, and users 
should *not* think that Apache endorses them as projects that will 
outlive their original creators. Publishing the site under the 
destination gives a perception that it's already done, that it's already 
Apache stuff, minus some legal details, while it's not the case.

Look, some of this incubation stuff is not nice, it apparently doesn't 
give anything to the project. I know you would all like to just do 
without it and move into Apache and who cares. But some things have to 
be done, and some things *do* have an impact that is greater than single 
projects see.

*Every* project comes here saying "well, but I'm different, I don't need 
this and that, come on, take it easier on me". So in the end, they are 
not different at all in this ;-)
We even had to make a FAQ for this:
http://incubator.apache.org/faq.html#can_Incubation_be_skipped

Sorry for this rant, but I keep hearing these things over and over each 
day, and it gets really tiresome at times.

As evidence of this, I'll note that despite how technically easy it
is to "automatically" make this move, it has not been done for the 5
or more projects currently hosted at their "destination" URL.
Because they have started incubation without the rule. Our policy is not 
to change the rules to incubating projects if not extremely necessary. 
This thing is important but not critical, so it was not *that* important 
to do it.

--
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Re: problems running forrest

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
Following the instructions at
http://incubator.apache.org/howtoparticipate.html, I seem to be having
problems running forrest.
Specifically, when I run "forrest run" from the incubator directory, I get
an error like this:
13:45:52.691 EVENT  ERROR   (2003-12-22) 13:45.52:681   [access  ]
(Unknown-URI) Unknown-thread/CocoonServlet: Exception reloading
org.apache.avalon.framework.configuration.ConfigurationException: Could
not set up component
IIUC you're just unlucky, as just yesterday a commit broke CVS forrest, 
with the error you show.

I'll see to fix it today and publish the website for you if you make 
changes (I had done so last time).

--
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