Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[Martin Cooper]

OK, we need to make a decision, pronto! Let's meet at "21st Amendment" (563
2nd Street) at 7:30pm on Monday. We can take the rest from there.

Martin.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering


>
> > Jon, can you suggest a place that isn't too far away from Moscone that
has a
> > large bar (with real beer...) we can gather in, with a reasonably-priced
> > restaurant that we can then have dinner in?  Cuisine can be anything,
but a
> > 'normal' american upscale bar menu might be the most appealing to the
> > majority.
> >
> > How about Monday or Wed night?  How about the Thirsty Bear?  I don't
know
> > anything about the place - isn't that where the Jboss people are holding
> > court?
>
> Soapy Bear is horrid- they clean their tubes badly, use too much detergent
> when they do, and as a result you get old yeast and other crap. Always a
> headache the next day. I'd also be against the Irish place - too noisy to
> talk :-) Other near by ones which are good to OK IMHO, have good beer and
> good food are and are quiet enough to talk:
>
> Rickenbacher bar; 2nd and mission
> 21st Amendment; 2nd 2 blocks down.
>
> Dw
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[Peter Donald]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:00, Jason Hunter wrote:
> Peter Donald wrote:
> > Wow this is absolutely fabulous - not what I expected to see - yea!!!
> >
> > If some one would bug them to include JMX in their "soon to be blessed"
> > list then everything that we do at Apache would be legal - woooh!
>
> I'll pass that on.

Thanks for this and everything else you are doing!

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*--*
| "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want |
| to test a man's character, give him power."  |
|   -Abraham Lincoln   |
*--*


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Krysalis, Centipede, Generating docs with Cocoon?

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 11:58:20 PM:

> Perhaps you should contribute to the project. 
> 
[snip]

No point really.

> 
> Your message to me suggests that you think I care whether you use
> centipede or not.  You are mistaken.  It works for me.  If it works for
> you, cool.  If not, use whatever.  Be free. 
> 
> 

Done. I'll spend my time making site2 a better vehicle for docs.

> 
> -Andy
[snip]

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[Jason Hunter]

Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> Wow this is absolutely fabulous - not what I expected to see - yea!!!
> 
> If some one would bug them to include JMX in their "soon to be blessed" list
> then everything that we do at Apache would be legal - woooh!

I'll pass that on.

-jh-

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Jason Hunter]

James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> 
> On 3/22/02 14:50, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I'm still not going to open a bottle of champagne, we need to see that LOI
> > in action, but it's definitely good news...
> 
> I'm cautiously optimistic. The devil is in the details, but we've tried to
> communicate clearly that our position is not a starting point for
> negotiation, but the minimum requirement for continued participation by
> Apache. The Sun folks on the other side of the table got that. And they get
> that more will need to change over the next few years.

Sun offered slightly more than we required by granting a large budget
for TCK support when we only required binary access.  Sun did this
because they felt support was essential for success, given the current
test suites and their design.  It may be the first time I've seen Sun
give more than they had to, and that's reassuring.

There's more work to be done, but both sides are tired of fighting.  I'm
sincerely hoping for more cooperation.  And to be honest, if this
doesn't work, then all faith will be gone and we'll just bug out.

-jh-

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Printable pages

[dion]

"Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 07:28:46 
PM:

> On 3/21/02 7:19 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> 
> > Please tell me you committed them back to site.vsl?
> 
> No...  The .xsl was derived from Jon's .vsl (for Anakia) but missed a 
few
> small things.Since DVSL uses  a declarative matching style like XSL, 
the
> .dvsl was cribbed from the .xsl  (simple replacement of some of the 
pointy
> stuff...).  The .xsl didn't produce the same output as the .vsl, so I 
fixed
> that in the .dvsl.

Ok, can you point me to the dvsl file so that I can check it and integrate 
the differences back into the site.xsl?

I'd much rather be using the same style/functionality for Latka as the 
rest of commons.

Thanks,

> 
> geir
> 
> > --
> > dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> > Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> > Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
> > 
> > "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 
09:51:46
> > AM:
> > 
> >> On 3/21/02 5:20 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >> 
> >>> "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 08:13:31
> > AM:
> >>> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 4:07 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Printable pages
> > 
> > 
> > on 3/21/02 12:57 PM, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > 
> >> In that case, the entire Jakarta site needs to be
> > redesigned. It makes
> >> use of embedded tables and  elements.  It does not use CSS 
at
> >> all.
> > 
> > Correct. 
> > 
> > My long time goal has been to convert the Jakarta site over
> > to use Scarab's stylesheets since it has been created by a
> > CSS expert (who works for
> > CollabNet) and it also looks better visually...it works
> > extremely well in all browsers.
> > 
> > I also want to switch from Anakia to DVSL so that all you
> > XSLT weenies can stop crying about Anakia's inability to be
> > declarative. :-)
> >>> 
> >>> Being one of the XSLT weenies, could we use the site.xsl as the 
basis
> > for
> >>> site.dvsl? Last I checked, they were in sync. Not that I know squat
> > about
> >>> vsl :
> >> 
> >> Actually, I took site.xsl as the basis for the site.dvsl that is in 
the
> > dvsl
> >> project.  It was so easy to do.
> >> 
> >> Also it fixed a few things that craig left out via copy() :)
> >> 
> >> geir
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> System and Software Consulting
> >> 
> >> Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and talent

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[Remy Maucherat]

> What we must do is make sure that all the libraries implementing JCP
> specs that we decide to use do get and pass their TCKs.
>
> That includes openJMX for tomcat, probably others ( openJMX is probably
> the most important for most server side projects ).

Yes indeed. The biggest problem with the agreement is that it is not
retroactive, and I don't see JMX in the "retroactive" list. Is the JMX TCK
going to be available anyway ?

BTW, OpenJMX = MX4J now.

Remy


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Philipp K . Janert]

Dear Friends!

First off, many thanks to Ted for posting my Draft Jakarta 
Overview, thus allowing everyone to review it, and many thanks 
to all who provided feedback on it, for or against.

I would like to comment on some of the issues raised.

- Purpose and Redundancy:
To clarify the intended purpose of the document, it may help
to explain how it came about: When I started to hang around 
the Jakarta website, my first desire was to get a good, high-level
overview, so that I would then know where to dig deeper into those
projects which are relevant to me. I followed every link on 
the main page to each individual project's homepage, and then on 
to the sub-projects where appropriate, compiling exactly the
information in the submitted document. Took me several days. 
Assuming that others will have the same experience (and Chris'
and Endre's emails seem to indicate they do), I decided to make it 
available.Just having all the information in one place can help a 
lot! (The overview on the Jakarta homepage, although great, does 
not contain either subprojects, or status information.)

- Audience and "Marketing":
The document is directed towards people who may not be familiar
with all the projects that exist under the Jakarta umbrella. 
Specifically, it is directed towards users, who hope to find
something useful for their own projects. (Those users may turn
into contributors over time!)
I cannot understand why Leo and Ceki refer to the document (and,
by implication, others like it) as "Marketing" - a term which 
carries in this context clearly condescending connotations.
I don't think documentation is marketing - and what I tried to
provide is simply documentation, not different in principle
than Javadoc, only at a higher level. 
It is also simply not true, as Ceki believes, that "everybody 
knows Jakarta": from the inside it may be hard to conceive how
large and confusing the entire Jakarta project can appear to 
the outsider.

- Users vs Developers
I sense a certain ambivalence towards making Jakarta projects 
easier to use - Ted, for instance, points out that more users lead 
to more support questions (and mailing list discussions, such as 
this one). But isn't this stance slightly contradictory?
If you don't want users, why publish your products? (By the way,
I, as a user, am grateful that you do make them public - and that's 
why I am trying to support this project where I believe it needs 
it!) Just for balance, Endre puts usability first - I guess, it's
a balancing act. 

- "Hello, World" and Javadoc:
Danny suspects that I "have a downer on Javadocs". That is not 
quite correct. I think Javadocs are great - as a reference. I
think they are terrible for just finding out what a project is 
all about. Overview, Tutorial, Reference: three very different 
things!
I would like to repeat my conviction that for first-time users 
(and all of us are at that stage at some point in our lives!) 
worked examples would be immensely helpful in understanding the 
scope and purpose of each project. It would be great if this could 
come either out of the projects themselves, or from the larger
user community. It is great to see Andrew encourage contribution
of documentation to individual projects. 

- Personal Assessment and Maintenance:
Several people pointed out that the document contains subjective 
assessments. This may be true, and may have been unfortunate. 
I think a much better approach would be if the status ratings,
for instance, came out of the projects themselves, along the
lines of: 'alpha', 'beta', 'stable', or somesuch (and I would
like to thank Andrew for suggesting that anybody unhappy 
patches it - and which is already happening!).
In terms of maintenance: Once everything is set up, this should
not take too much effort (just updates of revision numbers and
release dates, really). I think I also hinted (cough) that I
might be willing to help with that (to the degree that I have
available resources, of course) provided that maintaining such
an overview document at all is solidly supported by the community.

- Commons Components:
I am sorry, I have overlooked the Commons Components page, which
provides the equivalent of what I tried to do (for the Commons
project) - my mistake. I apologize. And thanks to Rodney for pointing 
it out.


Now what? 
=

It seems to me that overall a high-level Jakarta overview is
being considered useful, or at least "mostly harmless" by most.
The main contentious issues seems to be the perceived subjective
assessments, which are already being patched out: by people
closer to the projects and therefore more knowledgeable than me.
That's great! The "News" section has also disappeared - I consider
that a bit sad: I think some measure for the activity of the
project would be helpful, but there may be better ways to determine
it. I would have thought that the date of the most recent release 
would not be considered a "subjective judgement".

The question is: Now what? 

S

RE: Jakarta Overview

[Leo Simons]

- there's too many committers in jakarta to get 'em all to
  vote on jakarta-site2. Pointless waste of energy, imho.
- committers are responsible people (or they should be,
  at least!)
- as a whole, open source lacks docs. So does Jakarta. For
  those that disagree: look at sensible-documentation-per-
  api-method at msdn.microsoft.com, then look at us.
- many people monitor the site and its changes.

The points above lead me to believe the current (lack of
rigid) system is the right one. And I do think we all agree
that the jakarta site should be as objective as possible.

regards,

- Leo Simons

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[TANAKA Yoshihiro]

>"Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
>2002/03/22 03:35 AM EST

>There are people starting to travel (they are already traveling...) so lets
>decide.

I'm not a attendee but I have a suggestion:

1)First and foremost, let's meet each other!
  25th Mar. 12:00 PM in front of Room 102.
  Someone must have a mark, for example a printed out page
  of Jakarta home.

2)Discuss about the restaurant where to take dinner after meeting.

Regards.

--
Yoshi(TANAKA Yoshihiro)




--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 3/22/02 18:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I can tell you probably don't own a copy of Dr. Strangelove eh?

Actually no, I never read it. Darn, I hate missing the inside jokes. :)

|* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
|* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 21:49, James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> On 3/22/02 18:15, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
> > Wouldn't it be somewhat awkwardly amusing if they withdrew it right
> > after JavaOne is finished then again... I have a sick sense of humor.
> 
> It wouldn't be amusing. It would simply result in Apache leaving the JCP.
> Then it would be sad.
> 

I can tell you probably don't own a copy of Dr. Strangelove eh?

:-)

-Andy

> |* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
> |* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 3/22/02 18:15, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> Wouldn't it be somewhat awkwardly amusing if they withdrew it right
> after JavaOne is finished then again... I have a sick sense of humor.

It wouldn't be amusing. It would simply result in Apache leaving the JCP.
Then it would be sad.

|* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
|* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 17:50, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I'll wake up, i'll wake up.
> > 
> > If it's not a joke or just a 'declaration d'intention'
> > to be quickly forgotten later, it's a great success
> > not only for ASF or OSS, but for Java community.
> 
> Folks... The kids you need to thank are here, and well-known... Jason,
> Chuck, James, Sam, Roy, Dirk, and basically everyone (but me) on the JCP
> mailing list...
> 
> I'm still not going to open a bottle of champagne, we need to see that LOI
> in action, but it's definitely good news...
> 
> Pier
> 

Wouldn't it be somewhat awkwardly amusing if they withdrew it right
after JavaOne is finished then again... I have a sick sense of humor.

> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure communitysens e anymore"

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 3/22/02 08:52, "Stephane Bailliez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Fleury and Mason: No, we don't see that happening. Jakarta is not an open
> source project in the pure community sense anymore. It is dominated by
> Sun/IBM employees.

Which is why Jason and the rest of the Apache folks that care about the JCP
just lead a charge up the hill to get the progress that we did and the
changes from Sun to the JSPA that are coming.

Yeah, right, we're a bunch of Sun stooges around here. Uh-huh.

|* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
|* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 3/22/02 14:55, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> The real test for the "intent" will be to see JBoss getting their TCK to
> validate their product. Unfortunately this is implicitely excluded
> in the Sun response ( since it's an existing spec, not listed on their
> 'commit' list ), but hopefully the next spec of J2EE will be.

If these changes are made to the JSPA as promised, the next versions of both
EE and SE will be included.

|* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
|* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 3/22/02 14:50, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm still not going to open a bottle of champagne, we need to see that LOI
> in action, but it's definitely good news...

I'm cautiously optimistic. The devil is in the details, but we've tried to
communicate clearly that our position is not a starting point for
negotiation, but the minimum requirement for continued participation by
Apache. The Sun folks on the other side of the table got that. And they get
that more will need to change over the next few years.

It was good to have Jason talking with execs for a change and not lawyers
(whose job it is to ensure that nothing changes).

|* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
|* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Marc Saegesser]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Did I miss anyone?  Great job, guys.  

As others have pointed out, this isn't over yet, but this is the best news
I've seen in a really long time.


Marc Saegesser 

> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 4:51 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
> 
> 
> "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I'll wake up, i'll wake up.
> > 
> > If it's not a joke or just a 'declaration d'intention'
> > to be quickly forgotten later, it's a great success
> > not only for ASF or OSS, but for Java community.
> 
> Folks... The kids you need to thank are here, and well-known... Jason,
> Chuck, James, Sam, Roy, Dirk, and basically everyone (but me) 
> on the JCP
> mailing list...
> 
> I'm still not going to open a bottle of champagne, we need to 
> see that LOI
> in action, but it's definitely good news...
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Sun is proposing changes to the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are satisfied

[James Strachan]

Great news!


http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html

James


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[Peter Donald]

Wow this is absolutely fabulous - not what I expected to see - yea!!!

If some one would bug them to include JMX in their "soon to be blessed" list 
then everything that we do at Apache would be legal - woooh!

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 07:38, Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
> Hot off the press:
>
> --- Forwarded Message
> From: Harold Ogle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject:  JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:
>
> The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing
> its concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing
> changes to the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are
> satisfied.  To find out how this is or will be made so, both in letter and
> in spirit:
>
> http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html
>
> ===
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
> of the message "signoff JCP-INTEREST".  For general help, send email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
>
> --- End of Forwarded Message

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*--*
| Wise men don't need advice. Fools don't take it. |
|  -Benjamin Franklin  |
*--*

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore"

[James Strachan]

I thought this was a good article - apart from arguing that Apache is not a
true open source project in the community sense which I think is just plain
wrong. Its got the best community by far of any open source project I'm
aware of though I guess thats pretty subjective.

Other than that I think Fleury & Mason make a very convincing argument that
Sun should allow JBoss to be certified.

The quote from Karen Tegan is interesting...

At the same time, having a strong brand and compatibility standards are
important to the development of a robust market for J2EE platform products,
tools, and components. The "J2EE Compatible" brand has achieved significant
momentum over the past two years, and we want to make sure that any open
source efforts don't impact the viability of that effort.


This does not seem like an argument as to why JBoss cannot be certified.
Indeed this seems to suggest that JBoss should be openly tested for
conformance to protect the 'J2EE Compatible' brand. Otherwise the only
alternative is to create an open source 'JBoss Compatible' brand (i.e. an
open source J2EE test suite) instead which would only serve to fragment the
J2EE marketplace and weaken the viability of the 'J2EE Compatible' brand.

James
- Original Message -
From: "Stephane Bailliez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense
anymore"


>
> Apparentely I did not pay attention to those many gremlins working out for
> Sun and IBM in Jakarta and that are so closed... doh !
>
> See Marc Fleury's interview.
>
> ---
>
> http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2002/03/20/jboss_interview.html
>
> [...]
> Anglin: There has been much speculation of late regarding JBoss and Apache
> Jakarta. Could JBoss become a Jakarta project?
>
> Fleury and Mason: No, we don't see that happening. Jakarta is not an open
> source project in the pure community sense anymore. It is dominated by
> Sun/IBM employees. We are more focused on growing our own professional
> services organization through JBoss Group. As such, we form a
> hyper-efficient consultancy, where our open source product base enables us
> to achieve an unparalleled degree of efficiency in sharing and
communicating
> knowledge. You may feel that our open source nature limits us here, but
> never when it comes to high-level knowledge. The ability to see and
> reproduce source code does not automatically give people the understanding
> of how it's used or how it can be optimized. If they do achieve that on on
> their own, that's great. For those who want more insight, we sell the
> services to get them there.
>
> The second reason for our dissatisfaction with Apache has to do with
> problems in the 3.2 version of Tomcat (the new one is better). When those
> problems arose, we grew close to Jetty, a competing open source project
> backed by MortBay Consulting in Australia. We met these guys, spent time
> with them, and we found there were a lot of similarities -- they are a
> husband-and-wife-led company dedicated to their product because it is
their
> business. It just happens that we relate better to people with goals and
> expectations similar to ourselves --dedicated independent professionals.
> JBoss Group is about supporting and promoting that way of life and work,
> which, in our opinion, is conducive to the development of great software.
> [...]
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[dirkx]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> On 3/22/02 2:59 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> >> box,
> >
> > Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
> > processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
> > know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
> > example.
> >
> > If there are things in your build process that can be done in
> > parallel, you can use Ant's  task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
> > in parallel.  This should take advantage of multiple processors if
> > your JVM uses native threads.
> >
> > If you put  inside , make sure you fork new processes
> > though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.
>
> Woo hoo!  This is exactly what I was going to do to ant - I have a dual proc
> mac, and wanted my builds to go even faster...

Cannot ant (like normal decent pmake/bsdmake) figure out from the
dependencies what can be done in parallel. I am not asking for the
awsomeness of 'make -j 8 world' of *BSD - butsomething close should be
possible I take it - could be a nice graduade student project :-)

DW


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[dirkx]

> Jon, can you suggest a place that isn't too far away from Moscone that has a
> large bar (with real beer...) we can gather in, with a reasonably-priced
> restaurant that we can then have dinner in?  Cuisine can be anything, but a
> 'normal' american upscale bar menu might be the most appealing to the
> majority.
>
> How about Monday or Wed night?  How about the Thirsty Bear?  I don't know
> anything about the place - isn't that where the Jboss people are holding
> court?

Soapy Bear is horrid- they clean their tubes badly, use too much detergent
when they do, and as a result you get old yeast and other crap. Always a
headache the next day. I'd also be against the Irish place - too noisy to
talk :-) Other near by ones which are good to OK IMHO, have good beer and
good food are and are quiet enough to talk:

Rickenbacher bar; 2nd and mission
21st Amendment; 2nd 2 blocks down.

Dw



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[costinm]

What we must do is make sure that all the libraries implementing JCP
specs that we decide to use do get and pass their TCKs.

That includes openJMX for tomcat, probably others ( openJMX is probably 
the most important for most server side projects ). 
 
We are still in violation of the licence if we don't do that.


The real test for the "intent" will be to see JBoss getting their TCK to 
validate their product. Unfortunately this is implicitely excluded
in the Sun response ( since it's an existing spec, not listed on their 
'commit' list ), but hopefully the next spec of J2EE will be. 

Costin 


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Daniel F. Savarese wrote:

> 
> Hot off the press:
> 
> --- Forwarded Message
> From: Harold Ogle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject:  JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:
> 
> The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing its
> concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing changes to
> the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are satisfied.  To find out
> how this is or will be made so, both in letter and in spirit:
> 
> http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html
> 
> ===
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
> of the message "signoff JCP-INTEREST".  For general help, send email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
> 
> --- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Pier Fumagalli]

"GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'll wake up, i'll wake up.
> 
> If it's not a joke or just a 'declaration d'intention'
> to be quickly forgotten later, it's a great success
> not only for ASF or OSS, but for Java community.

Folks... The kids you need to thank are here, and well-known... Jason,
Chuck, James, Sam, Roy, Dirk, and basically everyone (but me) on the JCP
mailing list...

I'm still not going to open a bottle of champagne, we need to see that LOI
in action, but it's definitely good news...

Pier


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[GOMEZ Henri]

I'll wake up, i'll wake up.

If it's not a joke or just a 'declaration d'intention'
to be quickly forgotten later, it's a great success
not only for ASF or OSS, but for Java community.

>-Original Message-
>From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:54 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
>
>
>This news is *huge*. We got what we wanted.
>
>Jason Hunter is the guy.
>
>-jon
>
>on 3/22/02 12:38 PM, "Daniel F. Savarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hot off the press:
>> 
>> --- Forwarded Message
>> From: Harold Ogle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject:  JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software 
>Foundation
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:
>> 
>> The Apache Software Foundation published a position 
>statement summarizing its
>> concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is 
>proposing changes
>> to
>> the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are 
>satisfied.  To find
>> out
>> how this is or will be made so, both in letter and in spirit:
>> 
>> 
>http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html
>> 
>> --- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

For additional commands, e-mail: 


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> This news is *huge*. We got what we wanted.

Of course it is huge:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/22/2059242&mode=thread&tid=108

Hm... *really* cool.  I guess I am still skeptical though.  I want to see this
in action



Kevin

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

It is error alone which needs support of the government.  Truth can stand by
itself.  --Thomas Jefferson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt

iD8DBQE8m6TVAwM6xb2dfE0RAig6AKCKcPHRm0abfl/dc9Uc3YrtTDNnhACgmUSr
hNe1YHLu1qH46UlrGaP3Ze0=
=YlsC
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

[Fwd: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation]

[acoliver]

I need to read it a few times...but it sounds good. 

The devil will be in the details... "scholarship" is an interesting choice
of words regarding TCKs but I can see how they might want to be selective.
--- Begin Message ---

JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:

The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing its
concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing changes to
the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are satisfied.  To find out
how this is or will be made so, both in letter and in spirit:

http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html

===
To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
of the message "signoff JCP-INTEREST".  For general help, send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".


--- End Message ---

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Jon Scott Stevens]

This news is *huge*. We got what we wanted.

Jason Hunter is the guy.

-jon

on 3/22/02 12:38 PM, "Daniel F. Savarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hot off the press:
> 
> --- Forwarded Message
> From: Harold Ogle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject:  JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:
> 
> The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing its
> concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing changes
> to
> the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are satisfied.  To find
> out
> how this is or will be made so, both in letter and in spirit:
> 
> http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html
> 
> --- End of Forwarded Message


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[Daniel F. Savarese]

Hot off the press:

--- Forwarded Message
From: Harold Ogle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject:  JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:

The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing its
concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing changes to
the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are satisfied.  To find out
how this is or will be made so, both in letter and in spirit:

http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html

===
To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
of the message "signoff JCP-INTEREST".  For general help, send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".

--- End of Forwarded Message




--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: RE: Jakarta Overview

[Danny Angus]

Andy,
Another good point, I do seem to have taken a robustly negative view of all
this. Perhaps too much so.
d.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Jakarta Overview

[Danny Angus]

Morgan,
Your point about trust is well made, I think that its is the straw I was
grasping for!
I seem to have temporarily overlooked the fact that this whole edifice is
glued together by trust already, and to not have a more explicit mechanism
regarding the website made me neglect that..

d.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[martin . cooper]

Monday would be better for me - as Marc mentioned, there are BOFs that 
might cause a conflict on Wednesday - but I'm sure I could make other nights.

I haven't been to the Thirsty Bear either. It's very close to Moscone, 
though. The cuisine is Spanish, and the prices look reasonable (for San 
Francisco). It looks like the bar is quite big, from the photo on the web 
site. The JBoss people have reserved a room there on Tuesday and Wednesday, 
although their party is elsewhere. Again, I haven't been there personally, 
but it seems promising.

--
Martin Cooper


At 12:35 AM 3/22/02, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>There are people starting to travel (they are already traveling...) so lets
>decide.
>
>Jon, can you suggest a place that isn't too far away from Moscone that has a
>large bar (with real beer...) we can gather in, with a reasonably-priced
>restaurant that we can then have dinner in?  Cuisine can be anything, but a
>'normal' american upscale bar menu might be the most appealing to the
>majority.
>
>How about Monday or Wed night?  How about the Thirsty Bear?  I don't know
>anything about the place - isn't that where the Jboss people are holding
>court?
>
>geir
>
>
>On 3/22/02 1:48 AM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Where are we on this? It would be so sad to have so many of us attending
> > JavaOne in the same place, but without the opportunity to get together as
> > "Jakarta people".
> >
> > Jon is right - there are a bazillion places we could meet, and a bazillion
> > places we could eat. Sorry, the container is ready.
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: Micro JakartaOne
> >
> >
> >> On 3/15/02 12:52 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> on 3/15/02 5:18 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
>  Any suggestions for a good restaurant anyone?
> >>>
> >>> There are a bazillion good restaurants in SF. You just pick the style of
> >>> food you want and I can list off about 100 for each style.
> >>>
> >>> Also, I'm still willing to show people the club, even if we aren't doing
> >>> anything...
> >>>
> >>
> >> What kind of attendance commitment would it take to open the bar for a
> > small
> >> crowd?  We can just meet there?  I certainly want to see the place...
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> System and Software Consulting
> >>
> >> Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and talent
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
>
>--
>Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>System and Software Consulting
>My inner cowboy needs to yodel.
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: RE: Jakarta Overview

[acoliver]

>Does this mean that anything "donated" is accepted on behalf of the
project,
>by anyone with karma, without discussion and can therefore only be openly
>opposed once it has already been accepted?
>

I think the line of thinking behind the question (irrelevant of the question
itself) is incorrect.  Think postivively.  "I have reservations about this
page, so I'm going to patch it and improve it so that is acceptable to me. 
I relize while I feel the 10,000k view on the front page is sufficient, that
not everyone (especially dull folks like that Andy Oliver) might not and
might want more indepth information.  So I'll submit patches removing the
seemingly biased information and expanding it in a way that makes it more
useful in my opinion.  Furthermore I'll add a disclaimer that says the
information may be out of date as committers may not update it."

>What if (and I don't, I'm just asking) modification and inaction are not
>enough for me, I want to veto it?

Then thats pretty serious.  That says "nothing about this is good and the
author's contribution is rebuked".  Might be a bit drastic.

>I don't have enough Karma for Jakarta-site2, but if I did would I be within
>my rights to arbitrarily remove it? I think, and hope, not.
>Therefore it seems that it is a bigger hurdle for a donation of this kind
to
>be vetoed than accepted.
>

I sure hope so.

>> Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
>> author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
>> required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
>> book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
>> have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.
>
>You're absolutely right, I agree utterly with that statement, and I hope my
>miserable grumping doesn't put him off.
>
>
>> Apache stands for patching ...
>
>But we don't want to have to patch any old thing that comes swinging by, do
>we?
>

No, but the bar should be higher for just vetoing and nullifying
contributions then for improving upon them.  One is negative and destructive
the other is positive and constructive.

>Surely there could be a slightly better, and simple, way of accepting
>website proposals that makes it obvious that they are undergoing peer
>review?

>And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose --
>A "proposals" section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit
>any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus
>of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining
>the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance?
>

Why what a novel Idea: 

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/resolutions/index.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/resolutions/res001.html

>d.
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Jakarta Overview


> Hi,
> I'll try not to keep banging on about this, I know its not that important
in
> the great scheme of Why We Are Here :-)
> but ..
>
> > Yes, that is the "Commit Then Review" philosophy.  You cannot
> > prevent anyone
> > from initially committing anything, but one it has been committed you
can
> > vote it down.
>
> Ok, thats fair enough.
>
> > Any changes to a "product" require
> > consensus approval.  Does the website fit under the definition of
> > a Jakarta
> > "product"?  A good question, which does not come up very often.  Usually
> > committers are more permissive of website changes then code changes.
>
> The issue for me is that the website is in a perpetual state of releasing
> the head of cvs every time a change is made, there is no un-released
> development state for the website, and while there is arguably a
conceptual
> pre-release state while things are being reviewed it isn't clear to people
> who don't know our ways that some documents may carry the full weight of
> approval, or be Rules, or Codes of Conduct, yet others, undifferentiated,
> are merely proposals and possibly contentious at that.
>
> [The PMC should, of course, have unfettered right to publish. Its part of
> their role.]

Yup, right now it's definitely an honor's system.  The website is not really
a subproject with a list of committers; it's more of a free-for-all.  We
rely on people to be responsible, not to make unsubstantiated claims, and
not to implicitly add to or contradict the rules of the Jakarta project
(only the PMC can do that).  As far as "guidelines" are concerned, it's
difficult to sneak in questionable policies; too many people (like me ;)
monitor the commits to jakarta-site2.  That's just my opinion though; I
haven't seen many abuses to date.

With regard to the current debate over the Jakarta Overview document, I
think things are progressing as they should.  Someone contributed it, Ted
committed and posted it, and now we're discussing it.  Unless current
concerns are quelled, it will (or at least should) never gain a permanent
link from the site.

And just to add my own two cents, I don't like that document.  To date, the
policy has been to promote top-level subprojects on the top level of the
site, and let the individual subprojects describe themselves.  I still think
that's the sensible approach.  Even if the contentious language of the
Overview document were reviewed, I don't think one monster document
describing every component of every project is maintainable or all that
useful.  I think the real issue is that some subprojects are a little hard
to drill into, but that should be addressed by each subproject, not by a
dubious meta-document.

> > We have that section.  It's called CVS.  :)  It operates exactly
> > the way you
> > describe.
>
> Not if the head is going to be built and released everytime someone
commits
> something new.
> and if it isnt then its harder for people to review new material.
>
> d.

The best way to address this is to subscribe to the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list and monitor the commits.  It's
fairly painless; jakarta-site2 is a surprisingly low-traffic repository.
Essentially you are right though.  It's important to be vigilant with the
site.  Occasionally I see, for example, someone post news items concerning
"Jakarta's view on X"; that's often inappropriate.

Also I think we can rest assured that current and emeritus PMC members watch
those commits too.

- Morgan


_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[Marc Saegesser]

Tuesday works better for me, but I can find time on any evening (there is
beer involved, after all).  Wednesday evening will conflict with the Struts
and Servlet BOFs so that might impact attendance.

Thirsty Bear, http://www.thirstybear.com, looks good based on their web
site, but I've never been there.  Any comment from locals?

Marc Saegesser 

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:36 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering
> 
> 
> There are people starting to travel (they are already 
> traveling...) so lets
> decide.
> 
> Jon, can you suggest a place that isn't too far away from 
> Moscone that has a
> large bar (with real beer...) we can gather in, with a 
> reasonably-priced
> restaurant that we can then have dinner in?  Cuisine can be 
> anything, but a
> 'normal' american upscale bar menu might be the most appealing to the
> majority.
> 
> How about Monday or Wed night?  How about the Thirsty Bear?  
> I don't know
> anything about the place - isn't that where the Jboss people 
> are holding
> court?
> 
> geir
> 
> 
> On 3/22/02 1:48 AM, "Martin Cooper" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Where are we on this? It would be so sad to have so many of 
> us attending
> > JavaOne in the same place, but without the opportunity to 
> get together as
> > "Jakarta people".
> > 
> > Jon is right - there are a bazillion places we could meet, 
> and a bazillion
> > places we could eat. Sorry, the container is ready.
> > 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: Micro JakartaOne
> > 
> > 
> >> On 3/15/02 12:52 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> on 3/15/02 5:18 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> 
>  Any suggestions for a good restaurant anyone?
> >>> 
> >>> There are a bazillion good restaurants in SF. You just 
> pick the style of
> >>> food you want and I can list off about 100 for each style.
> >>> 
> >>> Also, I'm still willing to show people the club, even if 
> we aren't doing
> >>> anything...
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> What kind of attendance commitment would it take to open 
> the bar for a
> > small
> >> crowd?  We can just meet there?  I certainly want to see 
> the place...
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> System and Software Consulting
> >> 
> >> Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and talent
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
My inner cowboy needs to yodel.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Krysalis, Centipede, Generating docs with Cocoon?

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 12:13:01 PM:
> > Centipede is a bit more than just a fancy way of doing sites.  It is a
> > project starter template with some pretty nice stuff for separating out
> > ant targets and the such.  I like it.
>
> You mean using entities to include files as the targets? That just made it
> harder for me to work out what was going on with the existing stuff.
>
> As a template, it's way lacking on how to use it. For me it was like,
> here's a sample project, feel free to hack it. 'Hack' == 'time'. I was
> hoping for something with more detail on how to use it.

All these points are correct, and you have my backing.

Krysalis Centipede is in version 0.2, and it's still growing very fast.
The docs will start to come out as soon as the structure stabilizes.

Next version coming out next week will have:

- multiple skin support (jakarta and xml.apache L&F)
- build target aliasing and description
- basic docs on how to start, and the dir layout
- gump descriptor integration with project-info
- examples jar build, along with proper, scratchpad and contrib
- new build script
- endorsed jar dir, used by both build and tools
- corrected "dist" target, with test run before jar generation
- new "testmodule" target that tests all the build
- new "gump" target
- ready for automatic site update from Gump runs

[snip]
> There's no real explanation/docs on what to do with the directories/files
> provided.

Patches are welcome ;-)

If any project wants to use Centipede in his build, we will help
them get it running, as already done with Jakarta POI,
xml-Forrest and Chaperon, and bring the benefits
of cross-project pollination to the build.

Since this topic doesn't properly belong to this list, I hope
that this brief explanation of Krysalis Centipede will be enough
to give a basic understanding of what the discussion was
about and move interested users to krysalis.org .

Thank you.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Jakarta Overview

[Danny Angus]

Hi,
I'll try not to keep banging on about this, I know its not that important in
the great scheme of Why We Are Here :-)
but ..

> Yes, that is the "Commit Then Review" philosophy.  You cannot
> prevent anyone
> from initially committing anything, but one it has been committed you can
> vote it down.

Ok, thats fair enough.

> Any changes to a "product" require
> consensus approval.  Does the website fit under the definition of
> a Jakarta
> "product"?  A good question, which does not come up very often.  Usually
> committers are more permissive of website changes then code changes.

The issue for me is that the website is in a perpetual state of releasing
the head of cvs every time a change is made, there is no un-released
development state for the website, and while there is arguably a conceptual
pre-release state while things are being reviewed it isn't clear to people
who don't know our ways that some documents may carry the full weight of
approval, or be Rules, or Codes of Conduct, yet others, undifferentiated,
are merely proposals and possibly contentious at that.

[The PMC should, of course, have unfettered right to publish. Its part of
their role.]

> We have that section.  It's called CVS.  :)  It operates exactly
> the way you
> describe.

Not if the head is going to be built and released everytime someone commits
something new.
and if it isnt then its harder for people to review new material.

d.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[robert burrell donkin]

On Friday, March 22, 2002, at 01:09 PM, Danny Angus wrote:



> And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose --
> A "proposals" section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit
> any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus
> of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining
> the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance?

without wanting to sink the idea (even though it might), it's not clear 
how lazy consensus works (even at the moment) as far as the site goes. is 
it everyone with jakarta-site karma, is it all committers or is it just 
the PMC? the voting processing for the site would need to be clarified 
before we could even think about creating a system that uses that it. 
conversely if we find that we aren't able to get the community momentum 
required to clarify the process then the system will be built on sand.

- robert


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Why Sun won't certify JBoss (was Re: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore")

[James Strachan]

A thought struck me today which is probably totally obvious to folk but I
thought I'd share it anyways. Sun gets pots of cash from companies who
develop J2EE compliant software from the J2EE license fees. So its in Sun's
interest to protect the BEA's, IBM's and their own J2EE products. The money
they get is based on revenue of the company (so thats quite a lot of money
from BEA & IBM).

The money-men at Sun probably see open source J2EE solutions as lost revenue
to possible commercial J2EE solutions so when folks like JBoss come along
they see it as in Sun's interest to not certify them to protect their J2EE
licence revenue nest egg.

Though with the .NET competition now I think its in their interest to
protect their J2EE market place by allowing open source solutions; otherwise
long term folks will just move away from J2EE.

James

- Original Message -
From: "Stephane Bailliez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense
anymore"


>
> Apparentely I did not pay attention to those many gremlins working out for
> Sun and IBM in Jakarta and that are so closed... doh !
>
> See Marc Fleury's interview.
>
> ---
>
> http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2002/03/20/jboss_interview.html
>
> [...]
> Anglin: There has been much speculation of late regarding JBoss and Apache
> Jakarta. Could JBoss become a Jakarta project?
>
> Fleury and Mason: No, we don't see that happening. Jakarta is not an open
> source project in the pure community sense anymore. It is dominated by
> Sun/IBM employees. We are more focused on growing our own professional
> services organization through JBoss Group. As such, we form a
> hyper-efficient consultancy, where our open source product base enables us
> to achieve an unparalleled degree of efficiency in sharing and
communicating
> knowledge. You may feel that our open source nature limits us here, but
> never when it comes to high-level knowledge. The ability to see and
> reproduce source code does not automatically give people the understanding
> of how it's used or how it can be optimized. If they do achieve that on on
> their own, that's great. For those who want more insight, we sell the
> services to get them there.
>
> The second reason for our dissatisfaction with Apache has to do with
> problems in the 3.2 version of Tomcat (the new one is better). When those
> problems arose, we grew close to Jetty, a competing open source project
> backed by MortBay Consulting in Australia. We met these guys, spent time
> with them, and we found there were a lot of similarities -- they are a
> husband-and-wife-led company dedicated to their product because it is
their
> business. It just happens that we relate better to people with goals and
> expectations similar to ourselves --dedicated independent professionals.
> JBoss Group is about supporting and promoting that way of life and work,
> which, in our opinion, is conducive to the development of great software.
> [...]
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: [site] proposed changes to site.vsl template

[Daniel Rall]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 17:22, Ted Husted wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > Cool, feedback :) Where do u think it needs more whitespace - between
>> > 'menus' or 'items'?
>> 
>> Personally, I like putting the sidebar menus on the right, so they are
>> near the scrollbar. Then if the page is a little wide, its the menu that
>
> -1, this has been tried many times by many people and its been proven
> that left to right reading people always search for the menubar on the
> left.  

I agree with Andrew.  However, I must point out that putting the nav
bar on the top will allow the page to render incrementally in popular
browsers, rather than waiting for the entire page to download before
the rendering starts.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: [OT] JCP rant

[James Strachan]

Totally agree. Though its worth mentioning that the Servlet, JSP & JSTL JSRs
all have their their reference implementations developed at Jakarta (Tomcat
& jakarta-taglibs) so there's CVS, a public archived email list and
bugzilla. I do hope that these JSRs start a trend that most/all JSRs open
source the RI and TCK. It just makes so much sense. I think Sun as a company
still have a lot to learn about open source; though there's plenty of good
people at Sun who are showing the way.

I'd prefer all EG communication to be open on a public forum though I
understand that sometimes privacy enables some companies to participate do
to IP issues.

James
- Original Message -
From: "Daniel F. Savarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 7:12 PM
Subject: [OT] JCP rant


>
> Somebody asked on the axi-user mailing list why they should use Axis
> instead of JAXM.  I offered some comments, but tried not to stray
> too off topic.  In light of a recent JCP-related thread, I thought
> there might not be any objections on general@jakarta if I vented for
> a minute.
>
> When you use JAXM, you'll run up against all sorts of limitations and
> the best you can do is send a suggestion/comment to an email address.
> With Axis, or any Apache project, if you run up against a limitation,
> you can discuss it on a mailing list and submit a patch.
> Hypothesis: JCP JSRs that have more frequent feedback iteration cycles and
> provide source code tend to produce better results than those with fewer
> feedback cycles.  I'll use JAXM and JAX-RPC as examples.  JAXM
> had no mailing list for developer discussion/feedback as it was being
> designed/developed with only the usual JCP JSR comment address.  JAX-RPC
> has a jaxrpc-interest mailing list that has helped the spec evolve into
> something more likely to be useful to developers.  With something as
> simple as a mailing list a JCP JSR can gather much better requirements.
> However, neither JSR provided source for their reference implementations,
> making debugging and patch submission an impossibility.
>
> The problem with the JCP is not merely the licensing.  It is also the
> basic JSR procedures.  The objective of a new API is to meet some set
> of developer requirements in a particular application domain.  If you
> don't consult with your users, the target developer group, you probably
> won't develop a useful result.  JSRs would produce better results if run a
> little more like Apache projects, with more opportunity for user feedback
> in an open forum to mold the ultimate result into something useful.
>
> daniel
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Daniel Rall]

Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 15:48, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 3/21/02 8:41 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> > I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
>> > box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
>> > really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
>> > ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
>> 
>> How would what is currently a shell script that sets some variables and
>> executes a JVM be made to take advantage of a multi-processor box?
>
> I assumed Costin compiled the java goods.
>  
>> Just because you have multiple processors, it doesn't mean that the load for
>> one single process is going to be distributed across them.
>> 
>> It would take Ant to do all sorts of parallel threading to even get close to
>> making that happen and since Ant is really a single threaded application, I
>> doubt you will ever see a speed up (native code or JVM code).
>
> I was looking for some magic :-)

make -j3

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

"Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore"

[Stephane Bailliez]

Apparentely I did not pay attention to those many gremlins working out for
Sun and IBM in Jakarta and that are so closed... doh !

See Marc Fleury's interview.

---

http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2002/03/20/jboss_interview.html

[...]
Anglin: There has been much speculation of late regarding JBoss and Apache
Jakarta. Could JBoss become a Jakarta project?

Fleury and Mason: No, we don't see that happening. Jakarta is not an open
source project in the pure community sense anymore. It is dominated by
Sun/IBM employees. We are more focused on growing our own professional
services organization through JBoss Group. As such, we form a
hyper-efficient consultancy, where our open source product base enables us
to achieve an unparalleled degree of efficiency in sharing and communicating
knowledge. You may feel that our open source nature limits us here, but
never when it comes to high-level knowledge. The ability to see and
reproduce source code does not automatically give people the understanding
of how it's used or how it can be optimized. If they do achieve that on on
their own, that's great. For those who want more insight, we sell the
services to get them there.

The second reason for our dissatisfaction with Apache has to do with
problems in the 3.2 version of Tomcat (the new one is better). When those
problems arose, we grew close to Jetty, a competing open source project
backed by MortBay Consulting in Australia. We met these guys, spent time
with them, and we found there were a lot of similarities -- they are a
husband-and-wife-led company dedicated to their product because it is their
business. It just happens that we relate better to people with goals and
expectations similar to ourselves --dedicated independent professionals.
JBoss Group is about supporting and promoting that way of life and work,
which, in our opinion, is conducive to the development of great software.
[...]

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Morgan Delagrange]

I'm not Ted, but let me take a stab.  :)

- Original Message -
From: "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Jakarta Overview


> Ted,
> I don't want to have an argument, and I'm not criticising Philipp for
> offering, nor for the effort he obviously put in.
> I do have some reservations with this particular page, which I'm not going
> to raise again, if anyones interested they've already read them.
>
> I would like to take you up on a couple of points you make though,
>
> > The overview has been donated to the ASF, and is under Jakarta rules
> > now.
>
> Does this mean that anything "donated" is accepted on behalf of the
project,
> by anyone with karma, without discussion and can therefore only be openly
> opposed once it has already been accepted?

Yes, that is the "Commit Then Review" philosophy.  You cannot prevent anyone
from initially committing anything, but one it has been committed you can
vote it down.

> > If anyone wants to make it more objective, have at it. If not,
> > leave it alone and it will wither away.
>
> What if (and I don't, I'm just asking) modification and inaction are not
> enough for me, I want to veto it?
> I don't have enough Karma for Jakarta-site2, but if I did would I be
within
> my rights to arbitrarily remove it? I think, and hope, not.
> Therefore it seems that it is a bigger hurdle for a donation of this kind
to
> be vetoed than accepted.

You cannot arbitrarily remove it, but you can veto it.  Under the current,
slightly strange, default voting rules for Jakarta, Ted would have to talk
you out of your objection; if he could not, he might have to back out his
change (or you could do it for him).  Any changes to a "product" require
consensus approval.  Does the website fit under the definition of a Jakarta
"product"?  A good question, which does not come up very often.  Usually
committers are more permissive of website changes then code changes.

> > Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
> > author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
> > required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
> > book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
> > have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.
>
> You're absolutely right, I agree utterly with that statement, and I hope
my
> miserable grumping doesn't put him off.
>
>
> > Apache stands for patching ...
>
> But we don't want to have to patch any old thing that comes swinging by,
do
> we?
>
> Surely there could be a slightly better, and simple, way of accepting
> website proposals that makes it obvious that they are undergoing peer
> review?

Well you can always exercise your veto.  Then the committer backs it out,
discusses changes on the list, makes some modifications, and resubmits for
another vote.

> And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose --
> A "proposals" section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit
> any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus
> of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining
> the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance?
>
> d.

We have that section.  It's called CVS.  :)  It operates exactly the way you
describe.

- Morgan


_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Jason van Zyl]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 02:59, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> > box,
> 
> Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
> processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
> know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
> example.
> 
> If there are things in your build process that can be done in
> parallel, you can use Ant's  task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
> in parallel.  This should take advantage of multiple processors if
> your JVM uses native threads.
> 
> If you put  inside , make sure you fork new processes
> though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.

Are there any solutions that would make a 4-way machine appear as a
machine with a single processor so that single threaded code can take
advantage of those extra processors transparently? I have a 4-way box
here that is sitting idle here @ zenplex and I may have access to 2
8-way machines but if running ant isn't going to be able to take
advantage of these machines (in some form, don't mind doing some work)
then I might as well run builds on my build box at home.

> Stefan
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
-- 
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://tambora.zenplex.org


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Printable pages

[Stefan Bodewig]

On 22 Mar 2002, Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> BTW, you don't need admin rights to install Mozilla.

There may be a difference between what you can do and what you are
allowed to do 8-)

> BTW, you should bug your admins to upgrade.

I'm happily using mozilla-0.9.9, thanks.  I was not talking about
myself.

Stefan

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Jakarta Overview

[Danny Angus]

Ted,
I don't want to have an argument, and I'm not criticising Philipp for
offering, nor for the effort he obviously put in.
I do have some reservations with this particular page, which I'm not going
to raise again, if anyones interested they've already read them.

I would like to take you up on a couple of points you make though,

> The overview has been donated to the ASF, and is under Jakarta rules
> now.

Does this mean that anything "donated" is accepted on behalf of the project,
by anyone with karma, without discussion and can therefore only be openly
opposed once it has already been accepted?

> If anyone wants to make it more objective, have at it. If not,
> leave it alone and it will wither away.

What if (and I don't, I'm just asking) modification and inaction are not
enough for me, I want to veto it?
I don't have enough Karma for Jakarta-site2, but if I did would I be within
my rights to arbitrarily remove it? I think, and hope, not.
Therefore it seems that it is a bigger hurdle for a donation of this kind to
be vetoed than accepted.

> Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
> author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
> required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
> book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
> have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.

You're absolutely right, I agree utterly with that statement, and I hope my
miserable grumping doesn't put him off.


> Apache stands for patching ...

But we don't want to have to patch any old thing that comes swinging by, do
we?

Surely there could be a slightly better, and simple, way of accepting
website proposals that makes it obvious that they are undergoing peer
review?

And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose --
A "proposals" section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit
any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus
of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining
the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance?

d.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> 
> The overview has been donated to the ASF, and is under Jakarta rules
> now. If anyone wants to make it more objective, have at it. If not,
> leave it alone and it will wither away. 
> 
> Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
> author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
> required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
> book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
> have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.
> 
> We are very quick to say "Thanks for Volunteering" around here. OK,
> someone volunteered, and we got what we wished for. 
> 
> Apache stands for patching ...
> 

Well said friend, I totally agree!


> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> -- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
> -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> -- Web: http://husted.com/about/services
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Printable pages

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 02:57, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 3/21/02 11:50 PM, "Stefan Bodewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > True, but not everybody is allowed to upgrade.  Quite a few of our
> > (Jakarta's) users sit behind corporate firewalls at machines they
> > don't have administrative access to and are not allowed to install
> > additional software.
> > 
> > Stefan
> 
> Rebel. Don't let The Man beat you down.
> 

+1!  You rock Jon.

> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Printable pages

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 02:50, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2002, Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 16:53, Ted Husted wrote:
> 
> >> I would be -1 on a product change that made the main Jakarta web
> >> site inaccessible with Netscape 4.x.
> > 
> > Why...how long has Netscape 6 been out > 1yr.
> 
> True, but not everybody is allowed to upgrade.  Quite a few of our
> (Jakarta's) users sit behind corporate firewalls at machines they
> don't have administrative access to and are not allowed to install
> additional software.
> 

Ahh.  Okay, now I understand.  BTW, you don't need admin rights to
install Mozilla.  If you don't use the installer version you just unzip
it in a directory and run it.  

BTW, you should bug your admins to upgrade.

> Stefan
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Windows 2K Tomcat service w/ jacorb

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 23:17, Chris Lee wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Can anyone tell me how to setup jacorb w/ Tomcat which run as NT Service?
> 

the tomcat mail list or jacorb mail list perhaps?

> I am using Windows 2000, and latest Tomcat 4.0.3 Binary d/l at:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-4.0/release/v4.0.3/bin/jakar
> ta-tomcat-4.0.3.exe
> 
> I already study "Working with the Jakarta NT Sevice" by Gal Shachor, but I
> cannot found any wrapper.properties file on conf folder. 
> 
> Any Hints?
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> 
> ---
> Regards,
> Chris Lee
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Krysalis, Centipede, Generating docs with Cocoon?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 21:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 12:13:01 PM:
> 
> > On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 20:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > I downloaded Krysalis and Centipede,  hoping to find some easy way of 
> > > building docs, but I was sorely disappointed. You have to know a ton 
> of 
> > > stuff about Cocoon, Cocoon's 'book' format (which isn't DocBook), and 
> the 
> > > other tools involved to even get your head around it.
> > > 
> > 
> > Umm... no not really.  I just set it up today for work with no prob. 
> > you just have to have a "book" file in there and change all 's to
> >  and thats pretty much it.
> 
> Huh? You have to have a book file? What's a book file? What's allowed in 
> it?
> 

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/~checkout~/jakarta-poi/src/documentation/xdocs/book.xml?rev=1.9&content-type=text/plain

The left nav bar basically.  I believe there is an example included.

> > 
> > > If you have to setup and run Cocoon to generate a few HTML files, 
> what's 
> > > the point? At least the process with site.vsl and site.xsl is 
> documented 
> > > and easy to set up, and requires no special knowledge, for most 
> commons 
> > > projects.
> > > 
> > 
> > Centipede is a bit more than just a fancy way of doing sites.  It is a
> > project starter template with some pretty nice stuff for separating out
> > ant targets and the such.  I like it. 
> 
> You mean using entities to include files as the targets? That just made it 
> harder for me to work out what was going on with the existing stuff.
> 
> As a template, it's way lacking on how to use it. For me it was like, 
> here's a sample project, feel free to hack it. 'Hack' == 'time'. I was 
> hoping for something with more detail on how to use it.
> 

Perhaps you could contribute to the documentation.  Personally, I didn't
have such problems.  (And I don't even mess with it on POI)

> > > If it's just for L&F, I'd much rather tweak the existing stylesheets.
> > 
> > I'm not sure why you had so much trouble.  I barely put any effort in it
> > at all today and got a project with complex dependencies and some doco
> > out in like 0 time flat.  And I don't proclaim to be a Cocoon expert or
> > even particularly intelligent.  :-)
> 
> I'm not claiming either, either. Especially the intelligent part, and it 
> is Friday :)
> 
> What did you put in the sitemap? 

I did nothing to the sitemap

> What naming convention did you use for your files?

Random mood of what I felt like with .xml as the extension 
(there are files included)

> What directory did you put them in? /src/documentation/xdocs?

yes

> How did you work out what to put in the index.xml file?

One example of what I put in the index.xml file (though I use an older
version) was this http://www.trilug.org/~acoliver

> Where did you put the project specific images/css/js files?

I didn't.  Javascript is for losers.

> How did you include other files into the final directory structure?

images.

> How did you change the build file so it didn't generate all the Krysalis 
> stuff?
> 

edit project-info.xml  change the name.  The doc's and stuff well you
already found those.

> There's no real explanation/docs on what to do with the directories/files 
> provided.
> 

Perhaps you should contribute to the project.  

> Anyway most of this doesn't belong here, but it gives you an idea of the 
> sort questions that a 'user' might raise.

You're preaching to the documentation choir.  However build matters do
not particularly interest me.  I'm most interested in reducing object
counts in low level file format ports (
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html )
without sacrificing usability, improving the documentation to Cocoon,
and adding application extensions to Lucene.  

Your message to me suggests that you think I care whether you use
centipede or not.  You are mistaken.  It works for me.  If it works for
you, cool.  If not, use whatever.  Be free.  



-Andy

> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Ted Husted]

Danny Angus wrote:
> Try and look at the front page for, admittedly a "one liner", but one
> without subjective overtones, which doesn't present a non-contributors view
> of many projects as the "Jakarta Overview Definition" of what the project
> is.

The overview has been donated to the ASF, and is under Jakarta rules
now. If anyone wants to make it more objective, have at it. If not,
leave it alone and it will wither away. 

Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.

We are very quick to say "Thanks for Volunteering" around here. OK,
someone volunteered, and we got what we wished for. 

Apache stands for patching ...

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Pete Chown]

Jason van Zyl wrote:

> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
> really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
> ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?

It would be no different.  Sun's JRE and gcj can both take advantage of
multiprocessor machines when threading is in use.  If threading isn't in
use you will only utilise one processor.

-- 
Pete


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Jakarta Overview

[Danny Angus]

> Give me a two-line lowdown of
> what the stuff is, so that I can decide whether it is worth clicking on
> for my own part. Jakarta's cryptic names doesn't exactly say much, do
> they?

Try and look at the front page for, admittedly a "one liner", but one
without subjective overtones, which doesn't present a non-contributors view
of many projects as the "Jakarta Overview Definition" of what the project
is.

d.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote:

|
| Isn't the "overview" document trying to substitute itself for the
| documentation that is already in subprojects (or should be)?

No. It's an overview of what's "inside" of jakarta. Great!

| The cornerstone of the Jakarta and Apache Software Foundation in
| general is that "management"  delegates responsibility for a given
| subproject to each subproject, intervening as little as possible.
|
| Your introduction also raises further worries. Jakarta does not need
| more publicity. Everybody knows Jakarta. What is needed is improving
| the quality of each *subproject*. Marketing gimmicks are not helpful and just
| waste precious time.

I don't agree. I still haven't browsed around all those projects and
subprojects. I think this idea is great. Give me a two-line lowdown of
what the stuff is, so that I can decide whether it is worth clicking on
for my own part. Jakarta's cryptic names doesn't exactly say much, do
they?

|
| More importantly, who is to decide what project has what maturity? I find
| the "overview" document a little too interventionist, perhaps less in content
| than in sprit. Until these concerns are addressed, here is my -1.

Why not put it in the public and see what happens??


[btw: WHY don't people cut away the shit they don't reply to?? It's SO
annoying.. ]


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Waldhoff, Rodney wrote:

| Well said Andrew.
|
| Re. Chris's point, I think we'll be hard pressed to reach consensus on what
| a project "maturity" means, let alone how to measure it.
|
| If I were building this document (and if I remember correctly, I built this
| document: http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/components.html, which is rather
| similiar in some respects), I'd stick to factual information--brief
| description, release dates/numbers, etc. and let the facts speak for
| themselves.

As those numbers are pretty different from project to project, I think
that's not very "indicative" (?). # downloads is _interesting_, but of
course it doesn't say very much. But it _is_ interesting and does actually
say something about the combination of usability (audience) * maturity.

Regarding Ted's comments about large user base being bad: that's just to
weird. A large user base WILL make a product better. The worst thing that
can happen to a product is that the developers sits inside their tech-box
and just develops "cool shit". The _usability_ of the product must always
be in front. And there you have the users. And the users of these products
most often being developers themselves will give the product more
development, guaranteed. There _are_ itches that's just so annoying that
even I will try to fix them...

-- 
Mvh,
Endre



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

There are people starting to travel (they are already traveling...) so lets
decide.

Jon, can you suggest a place that isn't too far away from Moscone that has a
large bar (with real beer...) we can gather in, with a reasonably-priced
restaurant that we can then have dinner in?  Cuisine can be anything, but a
'normal' american upscale bar menu might be the most appealing to the
majority.

How about Monday or Wed night?  How about the Thirsty Bear?  I don't know
anything about the place - isn't that where the Jboss people are holding
court?

geir


On 3/22/02 1:48 AM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Where are we on this? It would be so sad to have so many of us attending
> JavaOne in the same place, but without the opportunity to get together as
> "Jakarta people".
> 
> Jon is right - there are a bazillion places we could meet, and a bazillion
> places we could eat. Sorry, the container is ready.
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: Micro JakartaOne
> 
> 
>> On 3/15/02 12:52 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> on 3/15/02 5:18 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> 
 Any suggestions for a good restaurant anyone?
>>> 
>>> There are a bazillion good restaurants in SF. You just pick the style of
>>> food you want and I can list off about 100 for each style.
>>> 
>>> Also, I'm still willing to show people the club, even if we aren't doing
>>> anything...
>>> 
>> 
>> What kind of attendance commitment would it take to open the bar for a
> small
>> crowd?  We can just meet there?  I certainly want to see the place...
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> System and Software Consulting
>> 
>> Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and talent
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
My inner cowboy needs to yodel.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/22/02 2:59 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
>> box,
> 
> Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
> processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
> know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
> example.
> 
> If there are things in your build process that can be done in
> parallel, you can use Ant's  task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
> in parallel.  This should take advantage of multiple processors if
> your JVM uses native threads.
> 
> If you put  inside , make sure you fork new processes
> though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.
> 

Woo hoo!  This is exactly what I was going to do to ant - I have a dual proc
mac, and wanted my builds to go even faster...

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Printable pages

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/21/02 7:19 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Please tell me you committed them back to site.vsl?

No...  The .xsl was derived from Jon's .vsl (for Anakia) but missed a few
small things.Since DVSL uses  a declarative matching style like XSL, the
.dvsl was cribbed from the .xsl  (simple replacement of some of the pointy
stuff...).  The .xsl didn't produce the same output as the .vsl, so I fixed
that in the .dvsl.

geir

> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
> 
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 09:51:46
> AM:
> 
>> On 3/21/02 5:20 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> 
>>> "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 08:13:31
> AM:
>>> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 4:07 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Printable pages
> 
> 
> on 3/21/02 12:57 PM, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> In that case, the entire Jakarta site needs to be
> redesigned. It makes
>> use of embedded tables and  elements.  It does not use CSS at
>> all.
> 
> Correct. 
> 
> My long time goal has been to convert the Jakarta site over
> to use Scarab's stylesheets since it has been created by a
> CSS expert (who works for
> CollabNet) and it also looks better visually...it works
> extremely well in all browsers.
> 
> I also want to switch from Anakia to DVSL so that all you
> XSLT weenies can stop crying about Anakia's inability to be
> declarative. :-)
>>> 
>>> Being one of the XSLT weenies, could we use the site.xsl as the basis
> for
>>> site.dvsl? Last I checked, they were in sync. Not that I know squat
> about
>>> vsl :
>> 
>> Actually, I took site.xsl as the basis for the site.dvsl that is in the
> dvsl
>> project.  It was so easy to do.
>> 
>> Also it fixed a few things that craig left out via copy() :)
>> 
>> geir
>> 
>> -- 
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> System and Software Consulting
>> 
>> Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and talent
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
>> 
> 

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: