RE: host key changed?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Good thing I put the "if I understand correctly" disclaimer
> on my message ;)

:-D

> my apologies to the OP.

No worries.  I tend to look at this as a security issue.  We should not take
a changing host key lightly.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: host key changed?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I understand correctly, yes the host key has changed: SVN is now
> hosted on eris.apache.org, not minotaur.apache.org.  (And you should
> use the svn.apache.org rather than cvs.apache.org if possible).

No.

  1) A host key warning should be taken seriously.  Are you sure
 that you're talking to the right host?  In this case, NO.

  2) No, he does not want svn.apache.org.  We don't give out shell
 accounts on the source control server.  He wants people.apache.org,
 which no longer shares the same physical host with source control.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: host key changed?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I tried to SSH to cvs.apache.org, but my system said there was a new 
> host key.

Why are you trying to access cvs.apache.org?  

> I know there were some recent issues with minotaur

Shell accounts are on people.apache.org, not cvs.apache.org.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: anyone else affected by wiki spam bots?

[Noel J. Bergman]

At the moment, this is the only report I've seen.  Howard also mentioned it
to infrastructure.

So these wiki bots know how to create accounts and sign into them for
spamming?

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

[Noel J. Bergman]

Martin,

> > Jakarta is
> > Components
> > Sandbox
> > Things move from sandbox to components.

> That would be fine if there was a well-defined scope for the sandbox.

Should be the same as the scope for Jakarta.  Define that, and you may have
your answer.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

[Noel J. Bergman]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > projects coming into the ASF go through the Incubator.  New things
> > started entirely within the ASF do not, currently.
> Then there is no NEED for a sandbox.

As you know, the sandbox predates the Incubator, and AIUI, the Sandbox
exists so as to allow experiments without polluting the respository in such
manner that would confuse the public and ourselves about what is real and
what is play.  There may be other ways in to achieve that goal.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

[Noel J. Bergman]

> 1. There should not be an escape from the pain of the incubator.
>All new projects must go through the incubator and endure.

ACO's gratuitously snarky comments aside, projects coming into the ASF go
through the Incubator.  New things started entirely within the ASF do not,
currently.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

[Noel J. Bergman]

>   * Create development mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

sandbox-dev@ ?

Otherwise, fine.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [VOTE] Remove SVN restrictions

[Noel J. Bergman]

+1

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Invitation

[Noel J. Bergman]

robert burrell donkin wrote:

> looks like we're going to need to think about turning on address
> checking sooner or later this year. probably need to think about
> ways to allow committers to post from their apache addresses.

Two separate issues, unless the e-mail was sent with his @apache.org
address.  If *his* domain uses SPF, I believe that we would already honor
it.  Our mail handling is transitioning, and we can pursue that option.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

[Noel J. Bergman]

Sandy,

I meant ALL of us.  The whole PMC.  Not a selected group, which eliminates
the problem of having to come up with a selection criteria.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

[Noel J. Bergman]

> there are no written down rules that I know of for what a PMC
> member should do (that'd be unnecessary bureacracy).

The written rules for the ASF are
http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html.PMCs would make their lives
a whole lot simpler if they would facilitate human participation and focus a
lot less on rigid structures (aka, rules).

If you do not need a rule, do not have it.  If you need a rule, I prefer
SHOULD rather than MUST unless coding automated protocols.  Guidelines are
better than requirements.

Ok, that's enough from speakers corner.  Good night. :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

[Noel J. Bergman]

> My proposal is that we create a file in SVN in which PMC members can list
> themselves as being active. After 1 month, failure to appear in that list
> will result in removal from the PMC.

Why not just send out e-mail to the PMC members asking them if they want to
remain active?

We have done this with another PMC, and had one person repeatedly ask to
stay listed as active.  I don't think that I've seen a post from him other
than that in some years now, but as long as he's happy reading and has
nothing to say, I have no problem with keeping him.  There is no quorum to
be met for the PMC.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Other Jakarta Components

[Noel J. Bergman]

In terms of finding homes, I wonder if we should have a root directory under
which we have inactive codebases.  One problem would be that no PMC would be
responsible.  Or we could create a sort of reverse incubator: a curatorship,
where no active development takes place, but where oversight exists.  If a
community wakes up around the codebase again, the curators can help put the
codebase back into a community.

This would be an ASF-wide thing.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ApacheCon EU 2006

[Noel J. Bergman]

Martin van den Bemt wrote:

> +1 :) The Dutch will get to the finals anyway and I don't
> want to miss out on that :)

LOL  Well, the Orange are on my list of teams whom I want to see do well,
along with the Brits and (of course) USA.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ApacheCon EU 2006

[Noel J. Bergman]

Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

> You are surely aware of the fact that this is right on top of the round
> of 16 and quarter-final games of "The World Cup", aren't you?

> IMHO you probably should plan to get T.V. sets in the common areas

LOL Way ahead of you.  The conference producer made similar comments, as did
I.  But not everyone shares out passion for The Beautiful Game.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta stats

[Noel J. Bergman]

Danny Angus wrote:

> I'm one of the "1) Inactive PMC members

Define inactive.  Inactive as a committer?  Inactive as a PMC member
providing oversight to Jakarta projects?  I'm in the former category, as are
many, but I still actively monitor several project lists, even if I only
post when I have something specific to contribute.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: comments on a project

[Noel J. Bergman]

> At first I tried to use JSP without any framework or taglib. In
> contrast to templates JSP doesn't help much on seperating logic
> and html code

Please see the JSP 2.0 Specification for Tag Files.  Tags are your friends,
and Tag Files make them easy to write.

> And I could not get used to the Model View Controller concept.

Very simple concept.  Documentation (and examples) often over complicates
it.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Request for Comment] Http Components proposal

[Noel J. Bergman]

> The plan is to factor the multipart content handling out
> of HttpClient. There's already a project in Commons
> Sandbox led by Mark R. Diggory [for] that end.  Unfortunately
> the project has been dormant for quite some time

See also: http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/james/mime4j

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: ApacheCon (AC2k5US)

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I've started a wiki page to plan any Jakarta/Apache-Java BoFs etc at 
> ApacheCon this December

> http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/AC2k5US

Shouldn't this be on http://wiki.apache.org/apachecon/ ?

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [RESULT] Naming for new Jakarta subproject

[Noel J. Bergman]

Henri,

We should run the name by the PRC, but it should be fine.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [VOTE] Naming for new Jakarta subproject

[Noel J. Bergman]

> [+1]Apache Silk

Akin to Danny's comment, whatever the group likes is fine, but the above is
my preference.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: WebXxxx Naming Was: Web Components/Common project

[Noel J. Bergman]

> How about Apache Spider Web?

No, but you just gave me an idea:

  Apache Silk

Silk is what webs are made of.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Web Components/Common project

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Has there been any discussion with the Incubator PMC whether this
> contribution needs to come through them?  Or does this somehow not
> fit into their purview?

All external codebases brought into the ASF need to come through the
Incubator.  Sometimes, as Henri noted, that only requires the IP clearance
to be filed.  We put some guidelines into that document for when it might be
appropriate.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: WebXxxx Naming Was: Web Components/Common project

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Also Web parts appears to be a Microsoft term

I have a shirt around here someone regarding "Parts for Java", which was a
product from ParcPlace.

Apache WebParts would be OK with me, but I care more about the content of
the project than the name.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta - Cleaning house

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Create a 'Graveyard' for dead projects

Absolutely not.  There is no such thing.  I might agree to an Apache
"museum", which has marginally more acceptable semantics.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusablein java web applications

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > Or Jakarta Web Parts For Java, or JWP4J, which has the benefit of
> > being what I am now (JWP) with 4J appended.  I for one like it!

> that sounds good to me too.
> anyone else have an opinion?

I believe that the PRC wants an Apache branding, but check.

Sorry for short reply, but my computer is literally in the process of dying
for the second time in a month (after repair), and I'm quickly posting this
before shutting down.  I'll be offline for at least a few days.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: mail server hacked?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Steve Cohen wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Just spam that made it past spamassassin.  We installed a new
> > rule set last night to address it.
>  Might that rule have possibly been overly strict?

Not unless your e-mail has subjects written in German.  :-)

More likely, e-mail just can't get through.  There is 0% idle CPU and I'm
sure that connections are being refused and need to be retried over and
over.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: mail server hacked?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Just spam that made it past spamassassin.  We installed a new rule set last
night to address it.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: mod_dav_svn for SuSe 9.2 Professional

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I'd like to know whether anyone would know where I can find the
mod_dav_svn

That'd be a question for httpd.apache.org, not Jakarta (Java stuff).

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta SVN

[Noel J. Bergman]

https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/jakarta/commons/proper/httpclient/trunk/

And the host name (svn.apache.org) is correct, and the host is working fine.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: VOTE: Tomcat -> TLP

[Noel J. Bergman]

+1

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: future for maven generated websites?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> does anyone have a plan to cope with rebuilding maven based
> websites when shell access is switched off to the machine
> serving the website?

Yes.  And in the meantime, just update minotaur, and the site will be
synched to the live server.  Which also means that we have a backup of the
live site if the web server were to crash.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Please, lets calm the things down.
> Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
> will still spin tomorrow.

Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK.  I
have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 miles.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from
> > their main task (coding) to answer management issues raised by
> > Jakarta. This raises the question of whether Tomcat is big
> > enough and mature enough to manage these issues itself, without
> > the involvement of Jakarta.

> Great.  Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing
> the entire Tomcat community.

Where did you see that from what he said?  He correctly noted that moving to
TLP status has certain requirements, but no one has said that Tomcat does
not possess them.  Quite to the contrary from most notes I've read on this
thread.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Dims,

The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
associated with them, too.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Mladen Turk wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.

> Cool, means so much to me.
> I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)

My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.

> > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
> > getting caught in the crossfire.

> Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.

I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Mladen Turk wrote:

> Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :)

Talk with the PRC.

> Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I
> really have not found a firm standpoint

Hence the PRC.

> So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that
> we all know as Tomcat?

The PRC exists to address and ensure consistency in such matters.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Mladen Turk wrote:
> > Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
> > propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?

I'd say that it is about time.

> I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
> 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
> is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
> of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
> encrypted or evil :).

I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture.  If anything, I am
more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

[Noel J. Bergman]

Remy Maucherat wrote:

> What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other
> company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ?

> Can you prove me wrong ?

Multiple companies have, in fact, been contacted and dealt with over what
was perceived to be misleading PR and other things.  I don't want to discuss
which ones, so as not to revisit old wounds, but I was involved in at least
two other incidents that come to mind off-hand.  In all cases, I do feel
that such matters should be brought to the PRC.

You should convey to JBoss, as has been conveyed to other companies, that it
would be appreciated if their PR departments would work with our PRC before
releasing related PR.  That would get you, and most of the rest of us, out
of that path, and let you, and most of the rest of us, concentrate on
community development and code.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

[Noel J. Bergman]

Serge Knystautas wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Remy Maucherat wrote:
>>>it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions.
>> Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be
in
>> conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the
case
>> where the existing IP is owned by the company.  This applies equally to
IBM,
>> Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss.

> This is an accurate legal description but not really an issue to me.

I was addressing only that aspect of it.  The positioning aspect is much
more contentious.  I agree with your expression of discomfort at how
companies --- not just JBoss --- market their relationships, but that's
something I would be happy to defer to the PRC.

> I think one of the great things about the ASF is that it does allow
> commercial involvement in their projects.  I'd love us to figure out how
we ARE comfortable thanking JBoss, IBM, etc.. rather than only reacting
when we feel a line is crossed.

+1

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

[Noel J. Bergman]

Costin Manolache wrote:

> I'm +1 on your email if you are going to send the same kind of email for
>> every use of "Tomcat" and if we are going to send an email every time a
> company or individual claims he is making 'lead contributions' to an
> apache project. And I would feel much better if such rules would be
> written down ( so we can point people to it - and use them in all cases).

> I'm -1 if this is only about Jboss, it's just not fair.

We have a PRC for the purpose, in part, of ensuring a consistent message
across the ASF.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been
> > from people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-).

> Obvious quandry for me, we don't really have any concept of subcommunity,
> apart from the individual dev lists, it's supposed to be the Jakarta
> community at large

Remind me again ... why isn't Tomcat a TLP?

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

[Noel J. Bergman]

Remy Maucherat wrote:
> I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
> JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
> individual at the moment

If you look at the CLA, you'll see that all contributions are made by
individuals, irrespective of motivation or employment status.

> and (as far as I can remember, as it was a while ago ...) have
> submitted a company CLA reflecting that

A CCLA simply authorizes each employee to perform under the terms of their
CLA.

> it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions.

Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be in
conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the case
where the existing IP is owned by the company.  This applies equally to IBM,
Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss.

None of this is new.  It has been discussed at length, and is fairly well
established.  This is a legal distinction having nothing to do with the
promotional wording of the Jolt awards.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [site] killing vendors page

[Noel J. Bergman]

I'd suggest that we talk to the PRC about it.  There are some good things
about a vendors page.  Erik makes an interesting point about the Wiki, but
it would mean that we couldn't vet it for content to prevent grossly
misleading content.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Eyebrowse down?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Some tables were marked as crashed in the eyebrowse database.
> I have taken mysql off-line and am running repairs.

This will take a bit longer.  We ran out of space on the file system holding
the databases, and it is taking a while to purge the cache that caused the
problem so that we can repair the databases.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Eyebrowse down?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> There appears to be a problem with mysql on nagoya.

Some tables were marked as crashed in the eyebrowse database.  I have taken
mysql off-line and am running repairs.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Eyebrowse down?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Scott,

There appears to be a problem with mysql on nagoya.  I'll see what I can do
about freeing it up.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: jakarta-site2 now live on xslt

[Noel J. Bergman]

sebb wrote:
> Looks like a *lot* of other projects use the Anakia jars and/or
> stylesheets from jakarta-site2 - not just jakarta-tomcat-site.

Including, FWIW, JAMES (ex-Jakarta project).  But we can clone what we need
until/if we replace it.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?

[Noel J. Bergman]

robert burrell donkin asked:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:

>>>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as 
>>>> such afaik)
>> Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide
>> basis.
> cool. what's the right to set about doing this?

Send e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?

[Noel J. Bergman]

robert burrell donkin wrote:

>>> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit
>>> of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
>> As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed.

> effectively is still lost as far as links are concerned

Well, if people would stop using machine names in URLs, we could at least
try to map them.  For the Wiki it would have been pretty easy.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit 
> of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.

As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?

[Noel J. Bergman]

>>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such
>>> afaik)

Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide
basis.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html

We might consider changing some of the wording if you are going to refer to
projects growing up and leaving.  We could refer to Jakarta as a federation
of projects, some of which are under the oversight of the Jakarta PMC, and
some of which are TLPs in their own right.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Scarab moved

[Noel J. Bergman]

Scarab has been moved from nagoya to ajax.  If you were referencing the
domain as issues.apache.org, which should have been the case for the past
year, you should not see any change.  If you were referencing the nagoya
hostname, you should see a redirect.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Migration to Ajax from Nagoya (fwd)

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Scarab is used by Turbine, DB Torque and a couple of other sub projects.

I'll look at doing the migration, but it would be nice if we had someone who
was willing to maintain scarab.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Dormancy worries

[Noel J. Bergman]

I share your concerns.  The general question is what to do with such
projects, and I think we should be open to creative ideas.  There has been
some suggestion that they be cleaned up by migrating them to some other
domain to be mothballed.  The code, web site, and mailing list archives
would be preserved, and could be restored at such time in the future when a
community might arise.

> BCEL and BSF both seem to be in danger of having no actual Apache
community

I am a fan of BSF, and would like to see that thrive.  We are making some
use of it in JAMES, which I expect will expand; have proposed use of it in
the Directory server; and I would like to see other projects, e.g.,
Geronimo, avail themselves of BSF.

> ORO and Regexp also are low, but I'm confident that both have an Apache
> commiter actively monitoring the community.

The suggestion has been made to merge both into Jakarta Commons.  I believe
that both are still in fairly widespread use, despite J2SE 1.4 adding
regular expressions to the core library.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Converting Jakarta site and site2 to SVN

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I think we shoul add it to a list of ones to archive somehow. Jsev,
> alexandria etc.

We could import them and move them to an archives/ subtree, kind of like a
branch, or just delete them.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [vote] moving jakarta-site2 to subversion

[Noel J. Bergman]

> 72 hours for this vote - classify this as a public release vote
> requires majority (at least 3 +1s and more +1s than -1s )

I'm personally +1, but if any Jakarta project presents a reason why creates
a problem for them at the moment, I would consider that binding until we can
resolve the issue.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta Support provider

[Noel J. Bergman]

I don't know how much vetting we do, but despite the fact that this is a
vendor page, I believe that a lot of people would complain about the phrase
"[Covalent is] the only source of full commercial support for Apache &
Tomcat."

Now that the ASF has established the PRC, perhaps it is time we turned
control over such vendor pages to the PRC to make sure that a message
consistent with the ASF's neutrality is preserved.

--- Noel

-Original Message-
From: Mark Brewer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 19:48
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Jakarta Support provider


To whom it concerns,

Covalent Technologies would like to be added to Developer Support
section of this page on the Jakarta site:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/vendors.html

Below is the info you've requested.

Website: www.covalent.net 
Description: Covalent is the leader in products and services for Apache
& Tomcat, the world's leading Web server, and the only source of full
commercial support for Apache & Tomcat.   Covalent has assembled the
deepest talent pool of Apache experts in the industry. Through
Covalent's products and services, Apache/Tomcat users receive all the
flexibility and benefits of open source, with the support and
reliability of a commercial enterprise fully dedicated to those open
source technologies.
Location:  Worldwide
Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Let us know if there is anything further you require.

Thanks,

Mark Brewer
925.974.8800 x5


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: http://cvs.apache.org down?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Could not access http://cvs.apache.org (e.g.
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-commons/transaction/ ) for quite
> a while, anyone any idea what the problem is?

Yes.  I took that httpd instance down because it was conflicting at the time
with SVN database maintanence.  I haven't brought it back up out of concern
that something would negatively hit SVN during this period.  Just being
(perhaps overly) conservative.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: SVN server down?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Shinobu Kawai and others asked:

> Is the SVN server down?

Yes.  Currently doing some maintenance on the database.  About another hour,
I would estimate from the processing rate, so between 14:00 and 14:30 EST or
so.

Sorry for the inconvenience.  Wasn't what I expected to be doing this
morning, either.  :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Exception handling Was: Future JDK features 2 items

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > > try {
> > >  
> > > } catch( (JMSException | RemoteException | SQLException) e) {
> > > }

> > try {
> >   ...
> > } catch (Exception e) {
> >   ...
> > }

> Usually you don't want to just catch all exceptions in a single block.
> Instead you want to have clusters of exceptions

And what is the common interface for those exceptions?  Exception?  ;-)  Are
you looking for catch ( As ), and just want the JVM to
exclude out other types derived from ParentType?

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Prioritizing

[Noel J. Bergman]

There has been a lot of good discussions.  Now we need to prioritize the
list.  I have, as a strawman, started a prioritized list at the top of the
page.  I put Continutations at the top, since it had the most "votes", and
added a few others.  Obviously, I'm not going to add everyone's item.  Add
your own, and add your name to others that you like.  That will give us an
idea of popularity.  I'm open to other suggestions.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Deciding on Java futures?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> How can we find out whats already planned by Sun.

I asked that exact question, and was told that they don't want to bias our
input by telling us what is already on the plan.  FWIW, I know that some of
the things are already on some plans there.  There is a big meeting on
Monday to address futures.

> I'm sure us Commons Math folks would all like to see the
> Nist/Java Grande rectangular matrices issue finalized and
> implemented.

> http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=083

I don't see anything on the JSR-083 site that says that the Expert Group has
produced or finalized anything.  But to the general point ...

> Theres a severe bottleneck here where if there isn't a "lead" at
> Sun to channel the JCP into the standard, then it just sits there,
> festering and dying. My fear is that the same would happen to any
> of Jakarta's efforts to do the same. Ultimately, I wonder why Sun
> is going around their own designed community process to interact
> with Apache concerning these sorts of questions?

They aren't.  This request is coming from the J2SE lead.  Sun has been
speaking with many partners for months to do preliminary research for
planning the Mustang (J2SE 6) Umbrella JSR.  They explicitly hope that the
ASF will participate on that Expert Group.  This is preliminary work before
setting up the JSR.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Deciding on Java futures?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Stephen Colebourne wrote:

> How are we deciding on the Java Futures? Are we voting? Just talking?

Funny you should ask ... :-)

First, the ideas can be discussed on the mailing list, but we should collect
them on the Wiki.  Second, we should try to prioritize them.  Third, I have
some feedback already on the good stuff posted, and have been asked if we
can provide some use cases, e.g., for continuations.  Not that the ideas
aren't good, but the use cases will bolster the arguments internally at Sun
for why a given feature is important.

FWIW, I'm told that some of the ideas are already planned, so that should
make folks happy.  I'm hoping that we'll get some direct feedback on the
Wiki page from Sun.

--- Noel

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 19:54
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Deciding on Java futures?


How are we deciding on the Java Futures? Are we voting? Just talking?

There are wide ranging views here, from add no more (JDK1.5 was bad enough)
to add everything but the kitchen sink.

The wiki has some simpler ideas which haven't been shouted down yet, like
jar in jar and access to the Class from a static context. I also think we
could leverage Jakarta Commons to get small useful methods added in a review
and tidy up of the core libraries (which is desparately needed). Perhaps we
could agree on these?

Could I suggest on language features, that our best approach would be to ask
Sun to allow us to discuss (in private if necessary) their proposed
additions in the next few months. That way we can feedback early our
experiences and maybe avoid adding unecessary or innappropriate 'features'.
(Personally I am on the side of most of the JDK1.5 additions being poor
choices that harm Java)

Stephen



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures

[Noel J. Bergman]

matthew.hawthorne wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I have created a wiki page to collect the information.  Please DO NOT
reply
> > to this message.  Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so
that we
> > have one open list) to discuss your ideas.

> So, are you saying that instead of replying to this message, each idea
> should be in a new message thread?

Actually, I don't care so long as we don't cross-post, which was the reason
for asking people to not reply.  :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures

[Noel J. Bergman]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> I have created a wiki page to collect the information.

It would have helped if I remembered to paste the link ... 

  http://wiki.apache.org/general/JavaFutures

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures

[Noel J. Bergman]

Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that
will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years.  So here's your chance to
tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7.  Once we
gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list.

I have created a wiki page to collect the information.  Please DO NOT reply
to this message.  Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we
have one open list) to discuss your ideas.

PLEASE NOTE: In order for this information to have the most impact, Sun
needs it by end of this week (October 29th).  [The short time is not Sun's
fault.  They had asked earlier in the summer, but the ball got dropped.  I
just ran into the J2SE lead, who raised the issue again].

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects

[Noel J. Bergman]

Henri Gomez wrote:
> If some people found hard to install and glue jakarta software (not
> products) together they should consider JPackage.org ready to use
> RPMS. This Linux project make a cross distribution coherent Java
> distribution, which is now used by Mandrake, Suse and Redhat.

If you can think of some way of validating the contents of the RPMs (e.g.,
if they were part of the release testing process and signed by an ASF
release manager), maybe we could do something with jpackage.org.  Or add the
RPMs to our dist/ tree.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects

[Noel J. Bergman]

Christian Anton wrote:

> Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure
> for any other product??

Jakarta isn't a product.

> Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components
> at varying stages of development and interoperability and
> documentation??

Because that is exactly what Jakarta is --- Jakarta is a community of
historic origin that oversees many projects written in Java.

> Why not install one single package when you can install, edit,
> install, edit, install, copy, install, edit...

When you go to the grocery store, do you expect to be provided with one
single set of cooking instructions for the frozen goods section?

> I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta

> I've spent the last couple hours trying to figure out how to install
jakarta.

When I read the installation documentation for OpenNMS, I see that it tells
you that you need Tomcat, provides a direct link to that project, and tells
you that it is PART OF [emphasis mine] the Jakarta Project of the Apache
Software Foundation.

  ref:
https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=23937&group_id=4141#d0e
211

If one were to RTFM, one would reach
http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/index.html, which has links to the Tomcat
binary downloads, manuals, etc.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: CVS->SVN episode 2

[Noel J. Bergman]

Henri Yandell wrote:
> * Every sub-project of Jakarta gets a subdirectory in the Jakarta SVN
>   repo.

> So this means that, all of the Tomcat project would be in
> svn:/jakarta/tomcat/, all of Turbine within svn:/jakarta/turbine etc.

> Does anyone have any problems with this as a basic strategy?

Unless you really mean the Jakarta directory of the ASF repository, yes.
The URL would be
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/jakarta/[tomcat|tubine|etc.]/{ttb}.  If
that's what you meant to say, then fine.  :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Axion / Derby status?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> My understanding is that the Axion folks wanted to wait
> until they're done with their 1.0 release at Tigris
> before moving

So is my understanding as well.

> I don't know about Derby.

Derby is already in the Incubator and starting to work.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: SVN of ECS Re: [Jakarta Wiki] Updated: JakartaBoardReport-September2004

[Noel J. Bergman]

Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
> If someone with appropriate access wants to do the load feel free.

Done.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

FW: help me !!!

[Noel J. Bergman]

-Original Message-
From: Swamy, Narayana SS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 9:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: help me !!!



Hi there,
 I would  to member of apache jakarta subscribe commity , give
me that url of corresponding  page ?. help me

Thanx
Narayana,

RE: Who is moderating Jakarta Turbine JCS mailing lists?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Done.

--- Noel

-Original Message-
From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:44
To: Christian Geisert
Cc: Jakarta General Mailinglist; Apache Infrastructure
Subject: Re: Who is moderating Jakarta Turbine JCS mailing lists?


Hi,

thanks. As Quinton seems to do different things these days: Can you add
me too as a moderator? Thanks.

Regards
Henning


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Where is Cloudscape?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Brian McCallister wrote:

> I would strongly recommend checking out Axion

> they promised users a 1.0 release in [the tigris] namespace

I hadn't heard that until recently.  Is that what accounts for the delay
between the Incubator being informed on October 16th that DB PMC had voted
to sponsor axion to the incubator and now?

> When Derby was first announced I thought it may make life rough on
> Axion, but the more I look at using Cloudscape 10 (derby initial
> codebase) the more I think Axion may make life difficult for Derby

There is a lot of potential for both of them.  I have no idea whether we'll
see the two communities and codebases merge, or just the communities with
two codebases that target somewhat different, but overlapping, segments, or
what.  That will be up to them.

How do you see the overlap and interplay between them from your review,
Brian?  :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Updating the PMC bylaws

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Interestingly, the ASF bylaws seem to imply that PMCs are only
> for members and officers of the ASF. I may be mis-interpreting:

> "Project Management Committees consisting of at least one officer of the
> corporation, who shall be designated chairman of such committee, and may
> include one or more other members of the corporation."

I don't see anything that excludes non-members.  I guess it is all in how
you interpret the last clause.  I interpret it as weak, as opposed to the
strong statement made about the PMC Chair's authority.

> Every (loose) description I've seen of a PMC describes it as the
> active committers to a project.

It can be whatever you need, but it should be (IMO) *at least* the active
committers.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Where is Cloudscape?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I'd suggest subscribing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] [until]
> the project has its own mailing lists.

It already does.  :-)  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Send the normal subscribe
request.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: download pages rethink

[Noel J. Bergman]

robert burrell donkin wrote:
> IMO signatures are more important (than md5 sums) for the ASF and
> less important for users. md5 sums are quick and easy to understand.

If we were ever hacked, MD5 sums could be replaced without detection.  That
cannot be done with PGP keys, and we have had people e-mail our security
folks when they cannot locate the key for checking.  I'd sooner have files
uploaded signed, and generate the MD5s locally if missing.

> what would be useful is a list of fingerprints for code signing keys on
> the website. it would also give an extra independent security layer.

We have KEYS, which is supposed to have the public key, and we have a new
server in the UK that is supposed to provide certificate based services for
the ASF.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: download pages rethink

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I tend to disagree with your assertion that PGP signtures are less
> important than MD5 signatures.  But then again, given how badly
> connected the PGP keys used to sign most Jakarta releases are, you
> are probably correct.  A signature by a key that hasn't been signed
> by anybody else isn't much better than a MD5 hash.

Perhaps, but PGP signatures are better, and there are things happen to
improve the ASF WoT, such as our own CA server.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Is Jira and Eyebrowse down?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> It appear Jira and Eyebrowse are down.

Fixed.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Wiki, newsletters, PMC-chair

[Noel J. Bergman]

Henri Yandell wrote:
> Please add me for both [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Done.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Wiki, newsletters, PMC-chair

[Noel J. Bergman]

> As the wiki-update emails don't seem to get through to this list

No one ever added the address to the allow list, so they are all pending in
the moderator queue.  And the sole moderator is rather busy right now.  So
if the PMC would like to provide some additional moderators besides Geir ...
:-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [site] .htaccess file has been modified outside cvs

[Noel J. Bergman]

> the .htaccess file for the jakarta site has been modified directly but
> is maintained in CVS. unless anyone knows a good reason not to, i'll
> update the copy in CVS with the changes.

If the changes look right, please do.  Not everyone who can make changes
knows that they are supposed to effect the changes via CVS.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> We agree that "burying" a project is less than helpful.

> It is the "invite people to be active" part that interests me.  I'm not
> saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is
> polite to our users to give people a sense of activity.

Well, if we focus on the word COMMUNITY instead of PROJECT, perhaps say that
the COMMUNITY has gone quiet, I believe that they'll get the idea.  We want
to see the COMMUNITY revitalized, and I believe that people understand (or
it can be more easily explained) that participation is the necessary
ingredient.  A community is made of members.  If there are people who want
to be members, we will help support the community.

My view is that for all of the talk of CLAs, karma, and other things, the
ASF exists to SUPPORT COMMUNITIES.  We have a philosophy about what makes a
good Open Source Community, and how we want to see code licensed.  The core
mission of the ASF is to support Communities that join with us and adopt our
approach.  The ASF doesn't develop software -- it develops and enables
Communities, made up of individuals, which then develop software.  Our focus
is on people, from which we believe that code follows.

A project doesn't die.  Code doesn't keel over and go legs up.  A community
may dissolve, but the code is still there, just waiting.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Tim O'Brien wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
> > > Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting
> > > this process
> >
> > First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation
> > has to do with dormant projects.
>
> You've been involved in formulating a process for the introduction of
> projects, I'd imagine you have views on the removal of projects.

Ah.  Although I do have views on the subjects, I don't really see the issues
as any more related than meal preparation is related to a colonoscopy.

> I think that dormancy is a problem which is fixed by discussions like the
> one we are currently having.  If no one had stood up and taken at least
> minimal responsibility for updating some sort of status, I'm not sure it
> would have been a good idea to just let Watchdog flounder indefinitely.

Why not?  We leave the resources in place, with a notice that the project is
dormant.  If it is revitalized, great.  If not, what harm is there?  Yoav's
work on Watchdog isn't going to make it less dormant.  He will apply some
changes necessary for Tomcat; possibly ask the PMC to vote for a release (or
Tomcat will work from CVS); make the necessary changes to the site to mark
the project as stable but dormant; and invite people to be active if they
want to see further changes.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Yoav Shapira wrote:
> > OK, then let me propose this:
> >
> > - We give Danny Angus and myself karma for Watchdog.  There are no
> >   active committers to nominate us.

> +1

+1  Let's just go ahead and do this.  :-)

Yoav's comment gets back to my ealier point.  A PMC should accept its
responsibilty for its project.  All of it.  This partitioning and delegation
of responsibility is wrong.  I can see the issue of perhaps granting a new
Committer commit rights to a portion of the system, but by the time you are
talking about a PMC member, it should be the entire project.  If there are
cohesive partitions of the project that don't want to grant karma to others,
they ought to be looking at forming their own TLP.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

>>> We still need to take care of the mailing lists.  I see two options:
>>> - We revive the watchdog-dev/watchdog-user mailing lists and redirect
>>> them somewhere like [EMAIL PROTECTED], or
>>> - We just leave them dead, take off the subscription links on the
>>> Watchdog site, and indicate in our notice of dormancy that questions
>>> about watchdog should be submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>Why not just monitor them?
>
> There's nothing to monitor: the lists are dead.

I can add redirects with about 60 seconds worth of work from start to
finish, or we can change the site.  So just make a decision as to what you
would prefer as best, and let me know.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> we do need to have someone somewhere answerable to the board and with
> oversight over any project which has public resources, whether it is
> active, maintenance only or unsupported end-of-life.

Yes.  But I don't think that we need a separate TLP for it.  I would leave
the project in the community that last hosted the now dormant project.

> If enough interest is shown in a retired project it can be re-vitalised
> by a visit to the incubator.

If there is enough interest, it can be revived.  There is no need for it to
go to the Incubator at all.

> FWIW I would be happy to volunteer my time for this.

Cool.  :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Yoav Shapira wrote:

> For interest's sake, let me explain what's been happening with Watchdog,
> as I think it's a useful example for other "graveyard" or "end-of-life"
> scenarios.

> We use Watchdog as part of the tomcat release process.

> A tiny change to the Watchdog build.xml would fix [a problem], and I've
> submitted a Bugzilla enhancement request with the patch.  But there's no
> one to act on my request

The idea of partitioning permissions within a TLP, as is extensively the
case within Jakarta, is broken.  A TLP is supposed to be a single cohesive
community.  Ideally, the PMC consists of all active committers.  Were there
a TLP for Tomcat and related tools, I suspect that Watchdog would be in that
TLP, even if Watchdog is also useable by other containers, and you would
have the necessary access rights.  Even in the current circumstance, it
seems to be that the Tomcat community might want to take responsibility for
Watchdog.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Henri Yandell wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source project.
Ever.

> Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in the incubator and
> 'fail', or in commons-sandbox.

Depends upon what happens in the Incubator.  If it does actually fail, then
I would probably concur that in most cases we should remove the code from
public view.  The project would be free to resurface elsewhere.

But even if a sandbox project is just an experiment, as long as it was
properly developed within the ASF (as opposed to something that improperly
bypassed the Incubator), I'd probably leave it fallow, and mark it as
dormant.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

> If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".

> Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process
> - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject.

First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with
dormant projects.

Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source project.  Ever.  I
didn't really agree with closing java.apache.org.  Although I do agree with
closing that domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to Jakarta.
In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources left in place,
and can have their mailing addresses reflected to a communal list, such as
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (or community@, although I a separate address
might be better).

It isn't as if a dormant project rots and deteriorates.  It isn't costing
anything unless there is activity.  If there are users who want to be
active, eventually people are going to have to step up and become stewards.
If a dormant project is revived by a new group, great.  If not, it just sits
fallow.  "Burying" a project makes it far less likely that users will be
able to organize around it.  I would certainly indicate that a project is
currently dormant, if only to let potential users know that there isn't the
kind of active community that they should expect from an ASF project.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Photoshop for the Apache Logo

[Noel J. Bergman]

Howard M. Lewis Ship asked:

> > Does anyone know where the (presumably) Photoshop files are for
> > the Apache logo (with the feather)?

Look in the foundation module.

--- Noel

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

[Noel J. Bergman]

Yoav,

> "no such mailbox: [EMAIL PROTECTED]"

I don't know the answer to the project status, but I can confirm that there
is no such mailing list currently existent.  I don't know when it
disappeared, other than the fact that it stopped archiving back in Nov 2002,
but entire mailing lists structures don't disappear by accident.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Maven Repository Status

[Noel J. Bergman]

Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I've been asked to mirror the Tapestry and HiveMind libraries, but
> haven't been able to find docs on
> the web about how to do so.
>

Do you mean for Maven and similar tools, or the basic mirroring requested of
all ASF projects?

If the latter, it appears that Tapestry is already in the right place, and
Jakarta's download page(s) should be providing the necessary support.  See:
http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html.

If for the Maven repository, see Robert has already given you good advice.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Hibernate in Apache projects

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL
> > code in ASL code that we host.

As I understand it, we do not want to link to LGPL code directly, but can
use it under another interface, e.g., we cannot import an LGPL package, but
if we have an LGPL service provider for JDBC, JNDI, etc., that is OK.

> if there is anything that Hibernate does that OJB doesn't, let
> us know and we'll fix that problem =) The only major feature
> Hibernate has that OJB does not is a marketing budget, to my knowledge.

Oh that is rediculous, if true!  I hear about Hiberate all the time, but I
never hear about OJB, and I had no idea it was in the same domain.  We
really need to help promote our own dogfood, at least to each other.

And, we need to improve inter-project collaboration so that when there are
issues, people find out about them so that they can fix them.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts mailing lists

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Anyway, it's been pointed out to me (thanks, sebb!) that the perms on the
> directory have changed from when I first tried this, and now I can do it
> myself, so I have. :-)

Ah, that explains the e-mail I was about to send, saying that I had started
to do the move, but noticed first that it appeared that all of the "missing"
pages were present.  :-)

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts mailing lists

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I've been waiting for the wiki to be fully set up

> The problem is that nobody with the appropriate privileges seems to have
> any time to move over some pages from the old wiki to the new one.

If all that is missing is karma, write a shell script with a list of mv
commands, and put it in your home directory.  Then add it as a request.

It is easier, and faster, to review a list of mv commands for pages than to
hunt up the data.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: status on request to add vendor

[Noel J. Bergman]

> If there is anything else that I need to do please let me know.

Ever tossed a ball into a crowd, and watched it fall because everyone
expects someone else to deal with it?

If nothing happens sooner, ping again in a week or so.  I've got to add my
own company's information, and I can add yours when I do ours.

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]