Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/11/20 7:06 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Tapestry is re-organizing internally to meet the goals of a Jakarta project
> *before* a formal proposal is sent to the PMC.  That is, we're now following
> Apache meritocracy rules, changing the license to ASL, etc.  Doing this before
> attempting a move to Jakarta, rather than after, is in everyone's interests.

Smart idea. Get used to working under Jakarta rules and see if you like it.
Then decide to propose to join.

-jon

-- 
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314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[hlship]

Tapestry is re-organizing internally to meet the goals of a Jakarta project 
*before* a formal proposal is sent to the PMC.  That is, we're now following 
Apache meritocracy rules, changing the license to ASL, etc.  Doing this before 
attempting a move to Jakarta, rather than after, is in everyone's interests.  

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://tapestry.sf.net
> Was there any final resolution to this thread?  I imagine any PMC 
> vote would be announced to this list?
> 
> -- 
> Man is unjust, but God is just; and finally justice
> Triumphs.
> 
>  Longfellow (1807-1882)
>  American Poet
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Doug Bateman wrote:


Was there any final resolution to this thread?  I imagine any PMC 
vote would be announced to this list?

 

So, I think everyone kind of agreed it needed to bake a little longer. 
So here is a status update.

Tapestry has:

1. Adopted Apache Voting rules
2. Ratified a core set of committers
3. Voted (but not yet implemented) to relicense under ASL
4. Created a seperate list for "committers"...  
 (slightly confusing but [EMAIL PROTECTED] is 
for committers and
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] is for users)  They 
plan to use a more standard
   naming convention when they are accepted

Dion, and Myself are helping them make the transition and Ken Coar has 
agreed to be our member-sponsor.

Yet to be resolved:

1. Incubate or not?  
2. Jakarta or Top-level (they prefer Jakarta and I feel thats probably a 
better idea too)

Following this we'll make a proposal matching whatever the system for 
acceptance becomes and I'm pretty sure they'll be accepted.  They're a 
great community, a friendly good-natured bunch of guys (please don't 
hurt them ;-) ) and they are adapting well to the process.

If anyone else would like to help, please feel free!

-Andy



  


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Doug Bateman]

Was there any final resolution to this thread?  I imagine any PMC 
vote would be announced to this list?

-- 
Man is unjust, but God is just; and finally justice
Triumphs.

 Longfellow (1807-1882)
 American Poet


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html

For Tapestry to become a subproject of Jakarta requires a 3/4 majority
of the PMC.  I am very interested in getting the incubator team to help
with the licensing issues and community issues.

I am optimistic about the outcome as there are plenty of people
motivated to make this work.
   


WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?
 

From reading this incubator.apache.org I would say the incubator. 
However I think that makes it a top level project.  Otherwise its 
jakarta.  

Personally, I don't give a rat's behind to be honest.  

Back when I was in college (which I dropped out of to catch most of the 
Boom...thank god or I'd have graduated in time for the bust with no 
experience!)...  I had this misfortune of being on the Student 
Government  (ours was called something else which escapes memory because 
it was appointed...basically anyone who wanted to actually be on it 
could be).  Well we were funded to and went to the State (or was it 
regional?  It was in tallahassee that part I do remember.) meeting 
of these.  The agenda was very simple and easy and could have been done 
in a 15 minute meeting had there not been a contingent who determined to 
fillibuster 2 days worth of talk with their mastery of the Robert's 
rules of order.  You see they debated the procedures and the such until 
the last hour when the board finally told them to sit down and shut up 
(which I'm sure violated page something or other) and we managed to pass 
one miniscule resolution of something stupid or other.

While the procedure and all that is very interesting and is important 
for the future of apache, it is not *particularly* important in the 
scope of accepting tapestry.  As long as there are "do-ers", it meets 
the guidelines for community, etc -- and there is a certain amount of 
good will, what is destined to be for the better will happen.  Maybe the 
project won't organize itself properly...maybe they'll not make the 
cut...I think they will, but regardless.

Or we can be like the florida something or other board of student 
governments and fillibuster ourselves to death over procedure, all get 
ticked off and argue until the apopcalypse...  

I would prefer the former rather than the latter but I'm a crazy 
man...so what do I know.  (Plus I've had an enormous chimichanga and a 
pint of Dos Equis...so I'm prone to be more democratically philisophical 
about things...)

-andy

   Pier (dumb)


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 26/10/02 19:25, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>> 
>> WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html
> 
> For Tapestry to become a subproject of Jakarta requires a 3/4 majority
> of the PMC.  I am very interested in getting the incubator team to help
> with the licensing issues and community issues.
> 
> I am optimistic about the outcome as there are plenty of people
> motivated to make this work.

WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?

Pier (dumb)


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:


Now, this looks like a little bit contradictory to me, you say "let's vote"
(and I assume that the Jakarta community needs to vote), the Jakarta
president says "let's make Incubator vote, and Tapestry be our guinea pig".

As I said, I'm not a part of this community (not a committer, not a PMC
member), neither a member of the Incubator community, but seeing it things
from a little bit of distance, WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?


http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html

For Tapestry to become a subproject of Jakarta requires a 3/4 majority 
of the PMC.  I am very interested in getting the incubator team to help 
with the licensing issues and community issues.

I am optimistic about the outcome as there are plenty of people 
motivated to make this work.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

  

let's be positive... As I said, I can't claim right anywhere, so, after
expressing my doubts, I will shut up.
 

Why no you certainly can!  Lend a hand, we'd value your experience, 
knowledge and good judgement!  Lend us a hand and you'll have all the 
license you need :-)

-Andy

   Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 26/10/02 16:10, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So?  I think Sam and Ken and the rest are committed to making this
> relatively painless (sorry for the cross post, I don't like talking
> about people behind their back...I prefer a more personal approach to
> insults...hehe ;-) ).  I'm committed to avoiding the Apache "the land of
> Catch-22s" Syndrome..  We'll get there.
> 
>> As I said, I'm not a part of this community (not a committer, not a PMC
>> member), neither a member of the Incubator community, but seeing it things
>> from a little bit of distance, WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?
>> 
> little details... We'll work them out.  Lets be positive :-)

Experience and history tell me that those are not "little" details, but
let's be positive... As I said, I can't claim right anywhere, so, after
expressing my doubts, I will shut up.

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Now, this looks like a little bit contradictory to me, you say "let's vote"
(and I assume that the Jakarta community needs to vote), the Jakarta
president says "let's make Incubator vote, and Tapestry be our guinea pig".
 

So?  I think Sam and Ken and the rest are committed to making this 
relatively painless (sorry for the cross post, I don't like talking 
about people behind their back...I prefer a more personal approach to 
insults...hehe ;-) ).  I'm committed to avoiding the Apache "the land of 
Catch-22s" Syndrome..  We'll get there.

As I said, I'm not a part of this community (not a committer, not a PMC
member), neither a member of the Incubator community, but seeing it things
from a little bit of distance, WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?
 

little details... We'll work them out.  Lets be positive :-)  

I still keep my reasonable doubt that _right_now_ timing is not right, and
that certain issues about who and where need to be solved before Tapestry,
or any other project FWIW, can land in the Apache sphere...
 

No the timing is perfect.  The timing to work with them to bring them 
into the fold.  The completion of this task requires hard work 
dedication and committment.  The great news is these are parallel tasks. 
Tapestry can adopt apache voting rules while we mold the pottery with 
our flames (j/k) over here!  Isn't this good stuff?  I think so.  (but 
then again I'm very strange)

Lets not inundate them with details, lets just be helpful.  Who's with us?

-Andy


   Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 26/10/02 15:20, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I totally disagree with Pier's statement (and you'll find many here will
> feel the same as I on this).
> 
> The opinion of Tapestry joining is very good.
> 
> Realize Apache is more like a confederation than anything.  So different
> people feel differently.  We're still ironing out a new process as Pier said,
> however most folks I've spoken to have felt that the Apache voting rules must
> be adopted as a first step not later.  Dion and I have both committed to
> helping you with this transition (though I don't think he ever stated so
> publically...Dion?).  And I'll be happy to subscribe to the tapestry list if
> you desire and help you build the structure.

I don't quite understand on what you disagree... I remain in the position of
doubt, I agree completely that (quote) "the Apache voting rules must be
adopted as a first step not later", as I always believed that our voting
system is the key, but Sam (your Jakarta PMC president) is saying:

On 26/10/02 15:12, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I'm +1 overall, but as Peter aluded to previously there are some
> mechanics to be worked out.  This has nothing directly to do with your
> proposal, merely that there is a new "incubator" committee which is in
> the process of forming, and a strong desire for this to be used for
> contributions such as these.
> 
> So, in other words, you may very well get to be a guinee pig.  Whee!
> 
> For a peek into the current status, see http://incubator.apache.org/

Now, this looks like a little bit contradictory to me, you say "let's vote"
(and I assume that the Jakarta community needs to vote), the Jakarta
president says "let's make Incubator vote, and Tapestry be our guinea pig".

As I said, I'm not a part of this community (not a committer, not a PMC
member), neither a member of the Incubator community, but seeing it things
from a little bit of distance, WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?

I still keep my reasonable doubt that _right_now_ timing is not right, and
that certain issues about who and where need to be solved before Tapestry,
or any other project FWIW, can land in the Apache sphere...

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Mr Ship,

I totally disagree with Pier's statement (and you'll find many here will 
feel the same as I on this).  
The opinion of Tapestry joining is very good.
Realize Apache is more like a confederation than anything.  So different 
people feel
differently.  We're still ironing out a new process as Pier said, 
however most folks I've
spoken to have felt that the Apache voting rules must be adopted as a 
first step not
later.  Dion and I have both committed to helping you with this 
transition (though I don't
think he ever stated so publically...Dion?).  And I'll be happy to 
subscribe to the tapestry
list if you desire and help you build the structure.

The steps as I see them:

1. Adopt apache voting rules
2. Vote to join and relicense (in one swoop)
3. Submit a formal proposal
4. You're in

The challenges ahead are:
1. Apache: figure out what the procedure is that you will join under  
 (my position is it doesn't matter as long as things are relaxed on 
you because we wanted
  to try something out and that things aren't full of extra hurdles 
because the procedure is
  in transition)
2. Tapestry: Find your voting committers, reorganize yourself into a 
meritocratic structure
3. All: Patience and due dilligence.

Me & Dion
1. Find a sponsoring member
2. Assist you in reorganizing
3. Assist you in your propoasal
4. Make our case
5. Assist you in getting your sources/structures here.

Thats as clearly as i can lay it out.  Hopefully others will chime in 
constructively and clear up anything I got wrong or is fuzzy ;-)

-Andy

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

On 26/10/02 15:01, "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 

So, this went out about a week ago, and the guidelines only cover as far as
publishing a proposal on the Jakarta General List.  What is the next step?

So far, I haven't seen any real negative responses, and a lot of positive
ones (I think a lot of ex-WebObjects folks are lurking about :-)).  I could
summarize in more detail if that would be helpful.  Obviously, the PMC
hasn't really weighed in.  Again, what next?
   


Not being a committer to any of the Jakarta projects, and not being a PMC
member, I can't say much on this, but from a general feeling that I gather
from different parts of the foundation, I would say that _right_now_ the
timing is not that great because of the "big reorg" going around ASF wide.

But the decision is left to the Jakarta committers and PMC members...

   Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:

So, this went out about a week ago, and the guidelines only cover as far as
publishing a proposal on the Jakarta General List.  What is the next step?

So far, I haven't seen any real negative responses, and a lot of positive
ones (I think a lot of ex-WebObjects folks are lurking about :-)).  I could
summarize in more detail if that would be helpful.  Obviously, the PMC
hasn't really weighed in.  Again, what next?


I'm +1 overall, but as Peter aluded to previously there are some 
mechanics to be worked out.  This has nothing directly to do with your 
proposal, merely that there is a new "incubator" committee which is in 
the process of forming, and a strong desire for this to be used for 
contributions such as these.

So, in other words, you may very well get to be a guinee pig.  Whee!

For a peek into the current status, see http://incubator.apache.org/

I was going to wait further in the hopes that there will be more 
structure in place to greet you when you get there, but perhaps a 
tangible contribution is exactly what the incubator team needs to 
provide focus.

So, without further ado, I suggest you join the 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list and introduce yourself.  They 
know you are coming.

Please don't take this as being shuttled about.  I plan to monitor this, 
and will step in and provide helpful nudges if it ever appears to stall.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 26/10/02 15:01, "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So, this went out about a week ago, and the guidelines only cover as far as
> publishing a proposal on the Jakarta General List.  What is the next step?
> 
> So far, I haven't seen any real negative responses, and a lot of positive
> ones (I think a lot of ex-WebObjects folks are lurking about :-)).  I could
> summarize in more detail if that would be helpful.  Obviously, the PMC
> hasn't really weighed in.  Again, what next?

Not being a committer to any of the Jakarta projects, and not being a PMC
member, I can't say much on this, but from a general feeling that I gather
from different parts of the foundation, I would say that _right_now_ the
timing is not that great because of the "big reorg" going around ASF wide.

But the decision is left to the Jakarta committers and PMC members...

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

So, this went out about a week ago, and the guidelines only cover as far as
publishing a proposal on the Jakarta General List.  What is the next step?

So far, I haven't seen any real negative responses, and a lot of positive
ones (I think a lot of ex-WebObjects folks are lurking about :-)).  I could
summarize in more detail if that would be helpful.  Obviously, the PMC
hasn't really weighed in.  Again, what next?

- Original Message -
From: "Ship, Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 10:29 AM
Subject: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


Background

Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge (http://tapestry.sf.net), is
component-based web application framework.  Tapestry falls generally into
the pull-MVC model of development.

Tapestry is designed specifically around the creation of completely
re-usable components.  Components can easily be packaged into libraries and
distributed as Jar files, even when they contain assets such as image files
and stylesheets.

Tapestry is organized around an abstraction that isolates
application-specific logic from the details of the servlet API, such as
HttpSession, request, response, URLs and query parameters.

Tapestry is highly pluggable, allowing any and all behavior to be customized
by subclassing appropriate base classes.

Tapestry is specifically not a JSP taglib, though future enhancements
(scheduled for the next release) will allow it to partially act as one.
Tapestry uses its own method for instrumenting HTML that is extremely
non-obtrusive (it still previews properly in a WYSIWYG editor).  Tapestry
has well specified, separate roles for HTML producers and Java developers,
and allows them to work together without interfering with each other.

The goal of Tapestry is to shift much of the burden of developing web
applications onto the framework, and free the developer to work cleanly and
effectively without concern for the many small details of web application
development.  The primary function of Tapestry is the automatic creation of
URLs by the framework, facilitating a fine-grained dispatch model.  The
bird's-eye view is that, in Tapestry, actions (such as clicking a link, or
submitting a form) are associated with a particular component and, through a
simple delegation system, a particular bit of user code.  There is no global
registry of actions, as in Struts, and it's easy to create reusable
components that define their own behaviors (in terms of links or forms),
independent of the containing page.

Tapestry applications can be extremely sophisticated with surprising little
code.

Tapestry includes a significant amount of documentation describing its
strengths and features in great detail, available at http://tapestry.sf.net.
Live demos, a great collection of user quotes, extensive documentation (HTML
and PDF) and a recent code coverage report are all online.

Tapestry has been an open-source project on SourceForge since June 2000.
Milestone releases (such as 2.1 in July, or the just-released 2.2) result in
6K - 7K downloads (increasing by over 1K downloads with each successive
release).  Tapestry has averaged over 3000 downloads a month during 2002,
with peaks above 8K/month.

Tapestry would benefit from Jakarta in terms of greater exposure and
acceptance, but also in terms of better infrastructure, such as Bugzilla and
Maven.

Tapestry is currently in the Java package net.sf.tapestry; this could easily
be changed to org.apache.tapestry.

Tapestry is currently licensed under the LGPL, but relicensing under the
Apache license is completely acceptible.  The main criteria used when
selecting a license three years ago was that Tapestry be open source and
reusable even in proprietary software, and both licenses ensure that.

In order to spur discussions, I've worked through the list of criteria and
warning signs (as per http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html).
Pardon the use of third person in reference to myself (it seemed appropriate
for prose that will likely be cut and pasted frequently).

Criteria

Meritocracy:  Tapestry is currently a benign dictatorship, but it has been
Howard Lewis Ship's intention, even prior to considering a move to Jakarta,
to organize around more democratic principals.

Community:  Tapestry has a modest, but very active community, centered
around a mailing list (approx. 170 members) and the Tapestry Wiki
(http://tapestry.sf.net/wiki).  The Tapestry mailing list has an
exceptionally good signal-to-noise ratio; discussions typically revolve
around planning new extensions to the framework, creating new components and
documentation, and diagnosing developer issues.

Core Developers.  The principal developer for the life of the project is
Howard Lewis Ship, he will continue his involvement with Tapestry
indefinitely.  Richard Lewis-Shell and Mind Bridge are frequent contributors
of components and bug fixes.  Neil Clayton

Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

That's awesome information.  Thank you for this!  

I got no reply from Javaworld or Dr. Dobbs, but I had not tried JDJ.  I 
wrote Tony Stintes and got no reply,
but I think this: 
http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/javaqa/2002-05/01-qa-0503-excel3.html 
was sufficient
reply.  

Somehow we managed to get coverage in some German professional journals, 
etc.  But I'm not entirely sure
why "accidental marketing" works so much better in countries where 
English is not the native language maybe they try harder
to find things?

Once again, thank you so much for this.  It was very helpful to me!

-Andy

Steve Downey wrote:

I don't think I've ever NOT gotten a reply. It has been a few years since I've 
written, but I doubt things have changed that much.

Getting enough decent technical material for a magazine is always a problem. 
Writing can be fixed by an editor, although it's better if it doesn't have to 
be fixed too much. Technical content can't be fixed by an editor. 

You do need to check that you're hitting the right person. The thing to do is 
to check the author's guidelines from the publication. It's usually a link on 
the main page of the website. I think JDJ has a web form for proposals, for 
example, so that they don't get lost in someones inbox. It can be a little 
bit of a problem, as a lot of the editors work virtually, and hand-off can be 
botched. 

As long as you're clear who you are, being a principal is not an issue. Think 
about it from the other side. Would you rather read an article about JUnit by 
Erich Gamma or John Doe? You should know more about POI than anyone, and are 
in a better position to write about how to use it than anyone. 


On Tuesday 22 October 2002 11:19 am, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 

Cool!  Suggestions?  I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor
himself.

Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal
contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as
objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get
more credibility there), but that is another story.

Steve Downey wrote:
   

On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 

Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found the
best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
   

No, it's not the best approach.

The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article
for you about Cactus. Cactus is , will interest you readers because
of , and the article will be about N words long, not counting
source code. Can I email you an outline?"

Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the
magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as
would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys.



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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Steve Downey]

I don't think I've ever NOT gotten a reply. It has been a few years since I've 
written, but I doubt things have changed that much.

Getting enough decent technical material for a magazine is always a problem. 
Writing can be fixed by an editor, although it's better if it doesn't have to 
be fixed too much. Technical content can't be fixed by an editor. 

You do need to check that you're hitting the right person. The thing to do is 
to check the author's guidelines from the publication. It's usually a link on 
the main page of the website. I think JDJ has a web form for proposals, for 
example, so that they don't get lost in someones inbox. It can be a little 
bit of a problem, as a lot of the editors work virtually, and hand-off can be 
botched. 

As long as you're clear who you are, being a principal is not an issue. Think 
about it from the other side. Would you rather read an article about JUnit by 
Erich Gamma or John Doe? You should know more about POI than anyone, and are 
in a better position to write about how to use it than anyone. 


On Tuesday 22 October 2002 11:19 am, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Cool!  Suggestions?  I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor
> himself.
>
> Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal
> contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as
> objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get
> more credibility there), but that is another story.
>
> Steve Downey wrote:
> >On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >>Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
> >>articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
> >>Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found the
> >>best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> >>haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
> >>"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
> >
> >No, it's not the best approach.
> >
> >The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article
> > for you about Cactus. Cactus is , will interest you readers because
> > of , and the article will be about N words long, not counting
> > source code. Can I email you an outline?"
> >
> >Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the
> >magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as
> >would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Cool!  Suggestions?  I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor 
himself.  

Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal 
contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as 
objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get 
more credibility there), but that is another story.

Steve Downey wrote:

On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 

Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found the
best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"

   

No, it's not the best approach. 

The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article for 
you about Cactus. Cactus is , will interest you readers because of 
, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code. 
Can I email you an outline?"

Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the 
magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as 
would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys. 



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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Steve Downey]

On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
> articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
> Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found the
> best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
> "but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
>
No, it's not the best approach. 

The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article for 
you about Cactus. Cactus is , will interest you readers because of 
, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code. 
Can I email you an outline?"

Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the 
magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as 
would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys. 



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Drew Davidson]

V. Cekvenich wrote:


Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, 
and at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more 
advanced capabilities.
http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else 
where).

I'm not sure that Tiles can be compared at all to what Tapestry is 
doing.  Using JSP as a substrate for any kind of framework (and Tiles is 
based on JSP using a taglib) limits the things you can do to promote reuse:

   * Tapestry binds components together through the definitions (.jwc) 
file and allows a component to synchronize it's state with another 
component - allowing object values to be passed down and back up through 
the runtime component hierarchy.  JSP allows only "String" communication 
between "components" via the  mechanism (by nesting 
 tags).  Other communciation can be set up by setting 
attributes in the request, but this gets messy very quickly and is 
nearly unreadable for any reasonable size number of parameters.

   * JSP gets only one shot at producing a page - the rendering stage. 
Tapestry has a "request cycle" that sweeps through the component 
hiearchy with the request first (to allow components to extract request 
parameters and alter their internal state accordingly), then an action 
phase to take action (and get the resultant component, then a response 
(rendering) phase where output is written.  This has many advantages, 
the least of which is that variable references on a page are consistent 
when read from top to bottom - a situation that is not true of JSP. 
This also allows the page to avoid having to manage the page buffer 
size, do forwarding, etc. and all that garbage.  You have a return 
component that is rendered - no need to forward.

   * JSP is implictly tied to the filesystem by using paths to jsp 
files to denote a "component" name (all the jsp stuff calls it "page" - 
revealing it's nature).  Other frameworks allow templates to be stored 
elsewhere (like a database).  This JSP mechansim cripples any attempt at 
doing a runtime selection of template (for example choosing based on a 
user's chosen display language - not doing this forces you to rely on 
cumbersome resource bundles for all your i18n).

   * Tapestry components can have actions within them that can execute 
independently of your application - include the component and it will 
generate the links necessary to perform it's own actions.  This is 
extremely different than the top-level controller approach of most other 
frameworks (Struts springs up foremost).  A result of this is that 
almost all URL generation is done by the framework - you don't have to 
specify:

   <%= request.getContextPath() %>/myTemplate/whyMe/ohGodWhyMe.jsp

   to link to another page - you really shouldn't be concerned with URL 
generation, I think.  

   * There are a lot more things that I'm leaving out.  Bottom line: 
Tiles is a taglib for layout and Tapestry is a framework for building 
component-based applications.  Two completely different beasts.

Tapestry represents the leading edge of the new breed of web app 
frameworks - the component web app frameworks.  WebObjects was the 
pioneer of this model and that framework is as old as the web (WO came 
out in 1995, I seem to recall).   Tapestry is "more component than 
thou", however :-) and solves some problems that WebObjects does not 
(like being free :-)

- Drew

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>  Along with POI we got Andrew
> Oliver... :)  

Oh gosh don't say things like that or we'll never approve new projects
;-)

> --Jeff
> 
> PS: +1 for adding Tapestry from me btw.
> 
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Java
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> > 
> > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > marketing.  
> 
> Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the
> faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all...
> 
I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based on
what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.

-Andy
 
-- 
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[dion]

Vic,

I'm acutely aware of Tiles and they are inscrutable to the average user. 
There are also lots of issues with Tiles fitting in with Struts 1.1 beta 
from memory.

It's telling that the documentation you give is from outside of the struts 
doc

news <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 21/10/2002 11:00:48 AM:
> Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, 
> and at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more 
> advanced capabilities.
> http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
> and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else 
> where).
> 
> .V
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Ellis Teer]

If you check the cactus stats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is
receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets
between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a
"niche" project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit
testing).
Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
using awstats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).


Thank you for mentioning that stats package as a sidenote.  Thinking of 
using it for a project now instead of analog/report magic.

With Cactus, my impression is that a sizable number of developers know 
about it, are interested in it, think it is a good idea, but are too 
'busy' in their day jobs to use unit testing, or more complex 
server-side unit testing.  And for those who have pet projects, those 
projects are usually small enough that the benefits of setting up test 
cases in the mind are outweighed by adding another feature.

You mentioned later in this thread what I believe is a key point.  You 
are doing something new and the public/users/possible committers need to 
learn to adopt unit testing and then 'IUT'.  And while people are 
thinking about it, they will browse the page, and even download a copy. 
 But until they use it for a project and see the advantages its 
adoption/attraction to developers may be slow.  I think the 
documentation and polish helps find developers more than hurts, IUT is 
just ahead of their needs though it doesn't need to be.

It reminds me of how digital video records have been slow to take off. 
But their time is coming one way or another.

--
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www.sitepen.com


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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@;apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 19:03
> To: Vincent Massol
> Cc: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
> 
> 
> > > I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based
on
> > > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what
I'd
> > > observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
> >
> > Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
> >
> > My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
> > Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very
nice
> > thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
> > marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction
was
> > too strong ;-)
> >
> 
> Ahh... word connotation.  I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the
> right way of saying things in email.  I'm told I'm abrasive in email,
> but not in person.  The funny thing is I say the same things... They
> just come off differently.  Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of
> voice...  (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions)
> 
> > Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do
to
> > improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be
missing
> > some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> > information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus
team
> > could do?
> >
> 
> Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
> articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
> Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found
the
> best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the
author
> "but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
> 
> Some people do the JUG tour.
> 

The discussion I had started was not about how to grow Cactus user base.
We are very happy with that (well beyond my expectations actually and
progressing steadily) but more on how to grow the committer's base. Of
course growing the number of people who knows about Cactus may have an
effect on the number of committers but I am not so sure about that
(that's not my observations so far).

My belief is that Cactus is too much viewed as a finished product:
- it works
- it has nice documentation
- it has a nice build process
- it has a quite responsive mailing list (a bit less lately as I have
slightly less time with Maven/other stuff and I'm trying to see if
others jump in when I don't answer 30 seconds after the question has
been posted ;-). It seems to be working! I have the feeling Cactus is
getting more ML participation ...).
- steady releases (9 versions/releases in 16 months, 1 stable releases/4
months).

It is indeed a finished product but there are still so many interesting
things to do to make it even way better ... ;-) (documented on the
todo/goal page).

> > You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
> > That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
> > documentation need to be improved?
> >
> 
> No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-)
> 
> If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't
look
> too bad.

It isn't but needs reorganization to prevent misreadings like the one
you mention below ... :-)

> 
> > FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
> > plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks,
etc)
> > which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by
the
> > users - the entry barrier).
> >
> 
> Ahh.  i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse
> wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or).

Let's not go there... Ok just a little then... Personally I don't want
compilation, which Eclipse gives me ;-) (I'm talking about dynamic
compilation). I want to know right away the result of a change I make to
a class across all my project, I want to know right away if I've broken
any coding convention as I type (using checkstyle for example), I want
to know the code impacted by my Aspects (AOP/AspectJ), if I make a
change deep in the directory structure, I want it to be surfaced so that
I know what is not committed, etc.

If you can resist, try not to answer this as it will lead to another OT
thread ;-) (you've started!).

> 
> The b

Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

Marc Fluery is (or, at least, comes across as) a jerk with some good ideas.
Unlike most folks who have used Tapestry, he didn't ask for clarifications
or make suggestions or enter into a dialog ... he made demands.  When I
asked that he actually participate, he dropped off the list. He's definately
more of a hacker, really doesn't like the basic discipline of declaring
things before using them, type safety, etc.

I don't always javadoc accessor methods without side effects.  I don't
javadoc methods in implementations that are fully described in the
interface's javadoc.  If you look at the online Javadoc, not the code
comments, it's pretty darn complete.  I have a weak memory, so I always
comment as I go (or even comment first).

I wouldn't call the site ugly, and the docs *are* online, as HTML, PDF,
JavaDoc ... even the code coverage report (which includes source code).
There's a "Documentation" tab on the main frame.

I haven't worked for Primix in over a year.  Primix doesn't exist, they got
bought out by a bigger fish, BurntSand.  I believe they mostly do Windows
stuff, with some ATG thrown in.

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
> attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
> proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
> than I do):
>
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644
>
> There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):
>
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644
>
> Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
> apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )
>
> The project is pretty active:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754
>
> There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
> days:
>
> http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
>
> Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):
>
> http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
>
> I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
> probably should be javadoc'd but aren't
>
>
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/s
rc/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-m
arkup
>
> Their website is ugly and doesn't have their docs directly online:
>
> tapestry.sourceforge.net
>
> Notes:
>
> 1. I didn't actually try and run it, i just looked at all the available
> online information.. (Sorry, don't have time to run it, I'm assuming
> user testimony is enough)
>
> Concerns:
>
> Tapestry started out as Primix foundation..  Is Howard still employed by
> Primix... would he still be working on it if he was no longer?
>
> Tapestry appears to have decent documentation...  Do we allow that
> around here? ;-)
>
> My biggest concern is they want to start following the "Apache way"
> after moving here.  In my opinion they have enough contributors, etc.
> I'd like to see them start voting and the such first, then reevaluate
> once they've been doing it a few months.  They might also want to
> investigate a home at JBoss if Apache doesn't work out.  I know those
> guys are expanding.
>
> All in all, as much as I don't really care for PULL methods...  This
> seems to be a healthy community, it seems to be reasonably well in line
> with Jakarta, and I think it would be a good fit.
>
> So for whats its worth +0 from me, and +1 if they start following the
> voting rules/etc in advance then move here.
>
> If they do that I will volunteer to help them out with bringing them
> into the fold and all, although I'm not a member.
>
> -Andy
>
> On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 09:35, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing
the
> > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
Everything
> > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> >
> > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
get
> > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
framework
> > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
> > hasn't been a ne

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 09:00 PM 10/20/2002 -0400, V. Cekvenich wrote:

Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, and 
at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more advanced 
capabilities.
http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else where).

Well, the fact that Tapestry is not JSP, allows it to do it in a more 
straightforward way, just like most other things you would need for the web 
app. Basically my experience is the following for doing most common web app 
operations:

...To do an average operation using
  [JSP]
 it takes X amount of custom code (plus it requires putting scripting 
code in template)
  [Struts]
 it takes 1.5X amount of custom code, but does not require scripting 
in the template
  [Tapestry]
 it takes 0.5X amount of custom code, does not require scripting in 
the template (and I can't measure the amount of reuse :-))


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- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/  -
Home of Cayenne - Object Relational Java Framework
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[V. Cekvenich]

Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, 
and at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more 
advanced capabilities.
http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else 
where).

.V

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 20/10/2002 04:29:17 AM:

[snip] 

As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
only usable within the framework?



No, and that's where tapestry is different. Tapestry is a component 
framework, not a template engine. Think Swing components as an example.


Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.



I've looked @ Tapestry in quite a bit of detail, and it does offer 
something different to Struts and Turbine, in that it focusses squarely on 
components and reuse.

There is a dearth of reusable components for Struts, simply because the 
JSP model doesn't lend itself to components very well, hence JSPTL and 
JSFaces.

Turbine has good component support for non-GUI components, but the 
template engine again doesn't lend itself to component embedding and 
reuse.

My 2c Aus
--
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Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 12:45, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> Marc Fluery is (or, at least, comes across as) a jerk with some good ideas.
> Unlike most folks who have used Tapestry, he didn't ask for clarifications
> or make suggestions or enter into a dialog ... he made demands.  When I
> asked that he actually participate, he dropped off the list. He's definately
> more of a hacker, really doesn't like the basic discipline of declaring
> things before using them, type safety, etc.
> 

;-)  I noted that as a positive.. . Yes, Marc lacks that little part of
the brain that prevents him from saying things that may offend others
(from what I observed), I also have this problem in some ways ;-).  I've
met him in person though, he's a nice guy and very bright.  He has a
certain charm about him that is hard to describe (abrasive yet...fun?). 

Other people I know also have issues, Andy Hunt (of pragmatic programmer
fame) recently put Object Oriented Programming on trial.  He also thinks
strong types are BS and that in fact Java isn't even actually strongly
typed (just enough to be annoying).  (I don't agree with him...just
stating this is a movement of some subscription)

Anyhow, I noted Marc's attention as a positive.  The fact that he looked
at it, whether or not he was good bad or indifferent, the fact that
notable people look at your project is a good thing..  It means you have
a good chance at building a healthy community..  (Via generating enough
attention) 

> I don't always javadoc accessor methods without side effects.  I don't
> javadoc methods in implementations that are fully described in the
> interface's javadoc.  If you look at the online Javadoc, not the code
> comments, it's pretty darn complete.  I have a weak memory, so I always
> comment as I go (or even comment first).
> 

Oh I didn't realize that.  I said most of the Javadoc was very
complete.  I just noticed some places where it wasn't. .  Documentation
isn't real big on Apache..  Its a ME thing..  (I don't get a binding
vote so it doesn't really matter what I think other than influencing any
like minded people)

> I wouldn't call the site ugly, and the docs *are* online, as HTML, PDF,
> JavaDoc ... even the code coverage report (which includes source code).
> There's a "Documentation" tab on the main frame.
> 

Sorry to insult you, I was just being silly when I called the site
ugly.  It actually uses colors that I can't really see (partially
colorblind) so I claim to hate those colors (certain shades of blue,
purple, etc all look black to me or are indistinguishable). 

Ha!  Sorry I missed it.  

> I haven't worked for Primix in over a year.  Primix doesn't exist, they got
> bought out by a bigger fish, BurntSand.  I believe they mostly do Windows
> stuff, with some ATG thrown in.
> 

Cool!  This is a positive.  What would be negative is if you said "yes I
work for them and will always work for them, but I'd abandon Tapestry to
the wolves if I didn't"...  

Just note... the process of becoming an Apache project is very very
painful (presently).  So don't get too discouraged.  I think Tapestry is
the most promising project I've seen proposed.  Unfortunately, there is
a random factor of politics that will come to play.

Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
them, get them working.  It has worked the other way I believe, but just
my personal opinion.

-andy

> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:53 AM
> Subject: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> > So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
> > attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
> > proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
> > than I do):
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644
> >
> > There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644
> >
> > Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
> > apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )
> >
> > The project is pretty active:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754
> >
> > There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
> > days:
> >
> > http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wik

RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@;apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 18:32
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
> 
> 
> > >
> > > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > > marketing.
> >
> > Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is
the
> > faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it
all...
> >
> I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based on
> what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.

Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)

My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
too strong ;-)

Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
could do?

You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
documentation need to be improved?

FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
users - the entry barrier).

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> -Andy
> 
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
>   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[dion]

John McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 20/10/2002 04:29:17 AM:

[snip] 
> As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
> development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
> technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
> conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
> well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
> only usable within the framework?

No, and that's where tapestry is different. Tapestry is a component 
framework, not a template engine. Think Swing components as an example.

> Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
> reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
> overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
> Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
> within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
> offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
> original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.

I've looked @ Tapestry in quite a bit of detail, and it does offer 
something different to Struts and Turbine, in that it focusses squarely on 
components and reuse.

There is a dearth of reusable components for Struts, simply because the 
JSP model doesn't lend itself to components very well, hence JSPTL and 
JSFaces.

Turbine has good component support for non-GUI components, but the 
template engine again doesn't lend itself to component embedding and 
reuse.

My 2c Aus
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Thu, 1 Jan 1970 09:59, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
> voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
> them, get them working.  

+1

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
Duct tape is like the force.  It has a light side, and a dark side, and
it binds the universe together ...
-- Carl Zwanzig 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jeff Turner]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 03:23:27PM +0100, Vincent Massol wrote:
...
> I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus
> from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> haven't been able to grow much the number of committers.

Oh well, in the deal, Jakarta got this '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' fellow who's
now doing good stuff in Maven and Commons... :)

The point being: when bringing in a new project, the new people are often
just as valuable as the new codebase.  Along with POI we got Andrew
Oliver... :)  I'm not suggesting anyone try to 'evaluate' people, just be
aware of this possible benefit, which may tilt some +0's to +1.

--Jeff

PS: +1 for adding Tapestry from me btw.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[V. Cekvenich]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Being the big moron I am, I don't see any of these issues to be as
important as:  1. Do they develop in "the apache way", 2. Is it a
vibrant robust community, 3. Is there any point at all. . . 

I see little point in having 30 persistence APIs or 30 connection pools,
etc...apparently some people do...  But 5 web app frameworks even if
they are all "pull" seems reasonable...  There are certainly MORE than 5
ways to roll a webapp  (even if I haven't found one I actually like
yet...)


A good project, I think it was the passed over db.apache project would 
be to unify the persistence API.
Similar to commons logging API.
Like a DAO api that lets you implement in any of the 30 way (same as one 
should be able to change the presentation layer, one should be able to 
change the persistence layer)
I tried to do this with:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/basicportal/basicPortal_07/src/org/commons/DAO/BasicDAO.java?rev=1.2&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
but I do not have the clout of Jakarta.

If we can come up with a persistence API that is the lowest common 
denominator for all API that would be real nice.
Also JSF currently has a "model expression interfaces" or something like 
that it requires of DAO, but induced that JDO, ORB, Simper, RowSet, EJB, 
Torqe, Castor, Scaffolding, Doclets, etc. etc.

So if we can have a small JAKARTA api that we encourage all subprojects 
to implement, but make it light, one ex:

public interface BasicDAO extends Iterator (or Collection)
{
   public void retrieve(long i) throws Exception;
public void update() throws Exception;
public void insertRow() throws Exception;
   public void delete() throws Exception;
public boolean setProperty(String name, Object value) throws Exception;
public Object getProperty(String name) throws Exception;
public void beforeFirst() throws Exception;
public void first() throws Exception;
public void commit() throws Exception;
public void rollback() throws Exception;
}

I have a SourceForge project that needs to use RowSet, or JDO 
persistence, and I am using this, but...

Anyway, I wish, I wish

.V


-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 20:31, John McNally wrote:


I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
comparison with the failed spfc project though.



It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
Tapestry?

john mcnally

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:


On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
projects to the contrary)


I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)

   Pier


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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Henri Yandell]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote:

>
>
> Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
> improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
> some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
> could do?

Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of Cactus
through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's no
real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is Java,
I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but I
don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs from
httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial
assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components].

So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of Cactus,
there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the level
of effort to use etc.

[adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure there
are many out there. ]

Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can
sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay, but
not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :)

Hen


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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@;generationjava.com]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 20:36
> To: Jakarta General List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do
to
> > improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be
missing
> > some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> > information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus
team
> > could do?
> 
> Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of
Cactus
> through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's
no
> real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is
Java,
> I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but
I
> don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs
from
> httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial
> assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components].

Hehe ... I think you may have nailed the exact problem! Even your last
sentence is not completely correct which proves your point (although it
is written on the web site!)... ;-) It's about *unit* testing java
server-side components (although at the moment it is more restricted to
unit testing J2EE components but that's not the only goal). And it's
about doing it in-container (inside the container).

Would "In-container Unit Testing" or "Integration Unit Testing" be a
nice meme?

I think the problem also comes from the fact that unit tests are still
relatively new. And what Cactus is doing is even newer. Thus there is
not yet any global knowledge of what IUT is about ... Cactus was built
to explore this road and is indeed a precursor ;-)

> 
> So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of
Cactus,
> there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the
level
> of effort to use etc.
> 

Yes, you are right. Everything is described on the web site (included
comparisons with other strategies), etc. BUT the problem is that you
have to read it first ... 

In that sense, Andrew was right. There is a need to do a lot of
evangelization on the concept of IUT so that it enters our global mind.

> [adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure
there
> are many out there. ]

That would be nice ;-)

> 
> Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can
> sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay,
but
> not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :)

I think you are completely right :-)

In addition the concept may need to be expanded a bit as it may be too
restrictive. Here are some ideas for the future:
- runtime unit testing (possibly using AOP)
- stress unit testing
(Thus more like tools like Introscope but at a much more agile level.)

It would still be In-Container Unit Testing (ICUT or IUT), though...
 
> 
> Hen
> 

-Vincent



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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> > I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based on
> > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> > observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
> 
> Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
> 
> My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
> Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
> thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
> marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
> too strong ;-)
> 

Ahh... word connotation.  I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the
right way of saying things in email.  I'm told I'm abrasive in email,
but not in person.  The funny thing is I say the same things... They
just come off differently.  Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of
voice...  (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions)

> Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
> improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
> some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
> could do?
> 

Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found the
best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"  

Some people do the JUG tour.  

> You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
> That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
> documentation need to be improved?
> 

No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-)

If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't look
too bad.

> FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
> plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
> which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
> users - the entry barrier).
> 

Ahh.  i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse
wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or).

The biggest turnoff for me was this:

"
 This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is
performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about
other browsers.
" 

IE doesn't work well under Linux.  Plus I like mozilla better and even
use it when I have to use Winblows.  

-Andy

> Thanks
> -Vincent
> 
> > 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > --
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> > Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> 
> 
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 10/19/02 8:57 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:40, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
>>> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
>>> 
>>>   Pier
>> 
>> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.
>> 
>> =)
> 
> Well it is faster ...
> 
> ;)

And trivial to embed :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)



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Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Andrew,

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@;apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 16:09
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> marketing.  

Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the
faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all...

> Where I work, lots of people talk about "maybe we should use
> cactus", and heck there are those who use all sorts of things from the
> Java Developers Journal that they have insufficient knowledge and
> experience to carry off.  (Yes you can write an object cache...  But
why
> would you, and why would you do it in your stateless session beans)...
> But cactus is a well kept secret.  Its one that gets whispered often.
> 
> From my limited experience, marketing (ugh!) is just as important as
> anything else to increase your community size.

Interesting... However, I do believe the opposite (and maybe I am
wrong)! I believe Cactus is victim of its success ... rather than it's
lack of ...

If you check the cactus stats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is
receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets
between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a
"niche" project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit
testing).

Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
using awstats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).

Cactus is well advertised and easy to find (junit, google, a book with
Cactus in the title, several others having a chapter on Cactus, several
articles on the web, reviews in magazines, a book in progress I am
writing, etc).

I completely agree with you on marketing which is why I have worked on
that since day one of Cactus ... I may not be doing enough of it (who
does?) but it already takes all my night time work ... ;-)

That said, I only wish to learn and I would love to know some more
tricks from you!

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> -Andy
> 
> On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 10:23, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@;attbi.com]
> > > Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > >
> > > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
> > growing
> > > the
> > > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
> > Everything
> > > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the
ultimate
> > > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> > >
> > > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't
really
> > get
> > > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
> > > framework
> > > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
> > there
> > > hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will
*force* a
> > few
> > > people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other
wise, by
> > the
> > > rules, nothing will actually happen.
> >
> > I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved
Cactus
> > from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> > haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe
there
> > are 2 possible reasons:
> >
> > 1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a
niche
> > and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
> > wrongly I can assure you ... :-))
> >
> > 2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have
tried to
> > work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
> > quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do
not
> > participate because it works and the projects moves forward by
itself
> > (so it seems ;-)).
> >
> > So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change
point 2/
> > (which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if
you
> > have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)
> >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Peter Donald"

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Thats why one should look at whether it has an existing community... if
it does, question answered.  If not...well there is something else.

-Andy

> 
> The point is apache had a project with similar ideas and it died.  Was
> it ahead of its time? Or are there fundamental problems with the
> approach that still exist?  I am willing to accept that it was just too
> large an undertaking at the time - about 4 years ago, for the developers
> involved.  But I would be happier, if Howard pointed out why Tapestry is
> setup for success when a precedent exists that proves developing a
> community around such an idea is difficult.
> 
> john mcnally
> 
> 
> 
> 
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The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 21:21, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 20/10/02 0:40, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> >> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> >> 
> >>   Pier
> > 
> > Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.
> 
> Greg is going to kill me! :-) Sourceforge works more than fine for now...
> But sure it's damn fast! :-)
> 

Cool.  Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help...  And
I'll be happy to help make the funeral arrangements.  Just tell me what
kinds of flowers and stuff cause I'm not good with that sort of thing.  

-Andy

> Pier
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing the
community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.  Everything
is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
decision, preferably agreeing with it.

I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really get
started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The framework
does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a few
people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by the
rules, nothing will actually happen.

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
Without
> a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.

Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to
Apache
but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO.
It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.

--
Cheers,

Peter Donald
--
 Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
--


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

Well, looking at the docs for SPFC I can see the following differences right
off the bat:

It looks a bit more like Swinglets and the others, in that it uses or mimics
the Swing APIs.  You assemble your pages in code, i.e., create a Form
object, add a TextField object and a Button object, and create event
handling inner classes and add them as listeners.

Behind the scenes, something somewhat similar is happening in Tapestry, but
Tapestry does as much as it can declaratively, in XML, rather than in Java
code.

Anyway, if you're asking why SPFC failed and why Tapestry hasn't, it simply
looks like SPFC never made it out of the alpha stage.  Almost no
documentaiton, almost no Javadoc, no examples.  No proof that it's a viable
system to anyone outside the project.  It's clear the initial developers got
sidetracked and lost interest.

Tapestry gained a lot because, in parallel with creating it and dumping it
into SourceForge, we used it on a medium-sized (175 pages) project at
Primix, during which the worst rough edges were smoothed out.  Sure, that
early pre-1.0 code is pretty darn primitive by todays standards, but by the
time folks outside of Primix started seeing Tapestry, they saw something
that was already usuable, and getting better every week.


- Original Message -
From: "John McNally" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
> different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
> probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
> written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
> comparison with the failed spfc project though.
>
>
<http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/java-spfc/docs/index.html?rev=1.10&conten
t-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup>
>
> It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
> Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
> event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
> such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
> Tapestry?
>
> john mcnally
>
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote
community
> > > software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I
totally
> > > misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> > > projects to the contrary)
> >
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> >
> > Pier
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
marketing.  Where I work, lots of people talk about "maybe we should use
cactus", and heck there are those who use all sorts of things from the
Java Developers Journal that they have insufficient knowledge and
experience to carry off.  (Yes you can write an object cache...  But why
would you, and why would you do it in your stateless session beans)... 
But cactus is a well kept secret.  Its one that gets whispered often.  

>From my limited experience, marketing (ugh!) is just as important as
anything else to increase your community size. 

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 10:23, Vincent Massol wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@;attbi.com]
> > Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > 
> > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
> growing
> > the
> > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
> Everything
> > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> > 
> > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
> get
> > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
> > framework
> > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
> there
> > hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a
> few
> > people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by
> the
> > rules, nothing will actually happen.
> 
> I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus
> from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe there
> are 2 possible reasons:
> 
> 1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a niche
> and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
> wrongly I can assure you ... :-))
> 
> 2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have tried to
> work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
> quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do not
> participate because it works and the projects moves forward by itself
> (so it seems ;-)).
> 
> So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change point 2/
> (which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if you
> have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)
> 
> Thanks
> -Vincent  
> 
> PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)
> 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> > Without
> > > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to
> > ultimately
> > > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> > 
> > Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come
> to
> > Apache
> > but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model
> > IMHO.
> > It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> > 
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Peter Donald
> > --
> >  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
> 
> 
> 
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 17:53, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Being the big moron I am, I don't see any of these issues to be as
> important as:  1. Do they develop in "the apache way", 2. Is it a
> vibrant robust community, 3. Is there any point at all. . . 
> 

The point is apache had a project with similar ideas and it died.  Was
it ahead of its time? Or are there fundamental problems with the
approach that still exist?  I am willing to accept that it was just too
large an undertaking at the time - about 4 years ago, for the developers
involved.  But I would be happier, if Howard pointed out why Tapestry is
setup for success when a precedent exists that proves developing a
community around such an idea is difficult.

john mcnally




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Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
than I do): 

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644

There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644

Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )

The project is pretty active:

http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754

There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
days:

http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html

Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):

http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html

I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
probably should be javadoc'd but aren't

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/src/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

Their website is ugly and doesn't have their docs directly online:

tapestry.sourceforge.net

Notes:

1. I didn't actually try and run it, i just looked at all the available
online information.. (Sorry, don't have time to run it, I'm assuming
user testimony is enough)

Concerns:

Tapestry started out as Primix foundation..  Is Howard still employed by
Primix... would he still be working on it if he was no longer?

Tapestry appears to have decent documentation...  Do we allow that
around here? ;-)

My biggest concern is they want to start following the "Apache way"
after moving here.  In my opinion they have enough contributors, etc. 
I'd like to see them start voting and the such first, then reevaluate
once they've been doing it a few months.  They might also want to
investigate a home at JBoss if Apache doesn't work out.  I know those
guys are expanding.

All in all, as much as I don't really care for PULL methods...  This
seems to be a healthy community, it seems to be reasonably well in line
with Jakarta, and I think it would be a good fit.

So for whats its worth +0 from me, and +1 if they start following the
voting rules/etc in advance then move here.

If they do that I will volunteer to help them out with bringing them
into the fold and all, although I'm not a member.

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 09:35, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing the
> community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.  Everything
> is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> 
> I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really get
> started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The framework
> does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
> hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a few
> people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by the
> rules, nothing will actually happen.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> Without
> > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> 
> Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to
> Apache
> but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO.
> It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> 
> --
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> --
>  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> --
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
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> 
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Java   

RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@;attbi.com]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
growing
> the
> community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
Everything
> is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> 
> I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
get
> started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
> framework
> does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
there
> hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a
few
> people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by
the
> rules, nothing will actually happen.

I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus
from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe there
are 2 possible reasons:

1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a niche
and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
wrongly I can assure you ... :-))

2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have tried to
work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do not
participate because it works and the projects moves forward by itself
(so it seems ;-)).

So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change point 2/
(which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if you
have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)

Thanks
-Vincent  

PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)

> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> Without
> > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to
> ultimately
> > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> 
> Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come
to
> Apache
> but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model
> IMHO.
> It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> 
> --
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> --
>  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> --
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 20/10/02 0:40, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
>> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
>> 
>>   Pier
> 
> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

Greg is going to kill me! :-) Sourceforge works more than fine for now...
But sure it's damn fast! :-)

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
> a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  

Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to Apache 
but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO. 
It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
--
 Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
--


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Being the big moron I am, I don't see any of these issues to be as
important as:  1. Do they develop in "the apache way", 2. Is it a
vibrant robust community, 3. Is there any point at all. . . 

I see little point in having 30 persistence APIs or 30 connection pools,
etc...apparently some people do...  But 5 web app frameworks even if
they are all "pull" seems reasonable...  There are certainly MORE than 5
ways to roll a webapp  (even if I haven't found one I actually like
yet...)

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 20:31, John McNally wrote:
> I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
> different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
> probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
> written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
> comparison with the failed spfc project though.
> 
> 
>
> 
> It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
> Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
> event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
> such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
> Tapestry?
> 
> john mcnally
> 
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> > > software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> > > misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> > > projects to the contrary)
> > 
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:31, John McNally wrote:
> It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
> Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
> event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
> such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
> Tapestry?

Component + Event driven web dev has got a lot more press recently. MS uses 
it. Sun is trying to develope a standard for it (see Java Faces which I 
believe Craig chairs) and there is quite a few other toolkits out there that 
do it and some even go the full way (swinglets or whatever it is called).

-- 
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Peter Donald

The two secrets to success:
   1- Don't tell anyone everything.
 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> 

I will support you completely especially if it is SEDA based.  I'm very
interested in SEDA.  Plus I have faith in your ability to build a
community and if you're open to some non-java components/ports I might
even contribute work.

+1 for competition for tomcat.  One of my favorite software development
organizations is Microsoft.  Because rather than squash internal
competition, they use it to their advantage.  (They are also my least
favorite but that is a longer story)

-Andy

> Pier
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:40, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> >
> >   Pier
>
> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.
>
> =)

Well it is faster ... 

;)

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 indistinguishable from magic" 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
comparison with the failed spfc project though.



It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
Tapestry?

john mcnally

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> > software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> > misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> > projects to the contrary)
> 
> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Martin Cooper]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:jon@;latchkey.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:40 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container 
> that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> > 
> >   Pier
> 
> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

If you use a Turbine to provide enough Torque, you might be able to Slide it
in at Jetspeed, too. ;-)

--
Martin Cooper


> 
> =)
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> 
>   Pier

Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

=)

-jon

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> projects to the contrary)

I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

John McNally wrote:


If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.


With that clarification, I agree.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/19 11:49 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> projects to the contrary)
> 
> -Andy

Open your eyes and read john's posting again. That isn't what he was saying
at all.

-jon

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 11:29 AM 10/19/2002 -0700, John McNally wrote:

If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.


You know, Tapestry in fact is different from your average JSP taglib. 
Anyone who had a chance to use component-based web frameworks (like 
WebObjects, I don't know any other in this category) would know what I am 
talking about. This is a  *different* and highly powerful and convenient 
way of doing things.

Surprisingly enough with so many webapplication layers out there, Tapestry 
seems to be the only one (OpenSource, that is) that allows you to create a 
set of reusable components and build the design around this. The level of 
reuse is unmatched with anything "JSP". In many ways it is even stronger 
then commercial implementation of the same design idea (WebObjects). In 
particular it makes it extremely easy for graphics designers to modify 
HTML, since dynamic content does not use *any* custom tags. Also the amount 
of code (and time) it takes to hook up an average model layer to the HTML 
presentation is so small that at first you may think you've missed 
something along the way :-).


I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
technology that is able to become a defacto standard.


The standards offered by Tapestry are the ones worth pushing for wider 
acceptance. I understand this was the main motive behind the decision to 
offer it to Jakarta.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/  -
Home of Cayenne - Object Relational Java Framework
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
projects to the contrary)

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 14:29, John McNally wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 06:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > John McNally wrote:
> > > -1.  
> > > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
> > > add another.  
> > 
> > It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
> > limit itself to two.
> > 
> > - Sam Ruby
> > 
> 
> If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
> just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
> proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
> see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
> clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
> one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
> of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.
> 
> With database connection pools, I think there were 4 implementations
> floating around the jakarta projects.  When I started to look at
> upgrading turbine's version or dropping it for one with the features I
> was after, I was unable to find a replacement.  This included a survey
> outside jakarta where I investigated PoolMan.  Unfortunately I did not
> look into avalon's pool which may have met my requirements, but
> misconceptions led me to overlook it.  So I set about to create the cp
> that implemented the current api's as specified by jdbc.  I still did
> not want to do this within turbine, so I engaged the connection pool
> project in the commons.  Now it turns out the developer of PoolMan
> wanted to stop development and it was proposed that it be brought to
> apache.  
> 
> I would have said the same thing: jakarta already has a couple database
> connection pools, why do we need this one.  And in addition the ones
> that are here already implement the latest specifications, while this
> proposed one does not.  But PoolMan has name recognition, so it is able
> to overcome my resistance to add YetAnotherDBCP.  And it has a member of
> Apache who is pushing its adoption, which helps to alay my concerns
> about lack of a developer community, though not completely.
> 
> I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
> implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
> standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
> technology that is able to become a defacto standard.
> 
> As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
> development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
> technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
> conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
> well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
> only usable within the framework?
> 
> Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
> reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
> overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
> Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
> within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
> offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
> original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.
> 
> john mcnally
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 06:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> John McNally wrote:
> > -1.  
> > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
> > add another.  
> 
> It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
> limit itself to two.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 

If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.

With database connection pools, I think there were 4 implementations
floating around the jakarta projects.  When I started to look at
upgrading turbine's version or dropping it for one with the features I
was after, I was unable to find a replacement.  This included a survey
outside jakarta where I investigated PoolMan.  Unfortunately I did not
look into avalon's pool which may have met my requirements, but
misconceptions led me to overlook it.  So I set about to create the cp
that implemented the current api's as specified by jdbc.  I still did
not want to do this within turbine, so I engaged the connection pool
project in the commons.  Now it turns out the developer of PoolMan
wanted to stop development and it was proposed that it be brought to
apache.  

I would have said the same thing: jakarta already has a couple database
connection pools, why do we need this one.  And in addition the ones
that are here already implement the latest specifications, while this
proposed one does not.  But PoolMan has name recognition, so it is able
to overcome my resistance to add YetAnotherDBCP.  And it has a member of
Apache who is pushing its adoption, which helps to alay my concerns
about lack of a developer community, though not completely.

I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
technology that is able to become a defacto standard.

As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
only usable within the framework?

Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.

john mcnally
 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 12:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I think you'll find good news when you read the mailing list.  A year ago, I
> wouldn't have tried to move Tapestry to Jakarta, because the community
> wasn't strong enough, but now it seems like participation is there, with
> more people contributing ideas and code.  It's also gratifying when users
> ask questions on the list and two or three other Tapestry developers answer
> the question before I even see it.
> 

yes!  :-)

> "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
> a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  Part of this is
> scheduling, deferring suggestings and minor fixes into later releases.
> Also, the pace of releases has been determined by me (i.e., when to freeze
> code, when to make a final release).  I'd rather have a voting system for
> that and buy in from others because its a lot of responsibility to determine
> when the code is stable enough (for instance, there is a rather obvious bug
> in the 2.2 release that should have been flushed out during the beta).
> 

I guess my knee-jerk is "why don't you just do it" first then become a
Jakarta project...  For POI we started doing this just before we moved
over... Even though in a tight-knit group we all thought it was a big
joke (I used to kid that Marc and I were the same person, I was just
impersonating him so that we had enough active committers ;-) )...  

It sounds like you have a reasonable idea of whats going on..

> Much of the evolution of Tapestry starts with a core idea (often, but not
> always, from me), is discussed on the list and in the Wiki, and eventually
> turned into code (and tests, and documentation).
> 

Wiki's rock!  :-)  They are only now beginning to take root here.

I'll be there shortly to take a look.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> > Just my 2c..  If they have a strong community and meet the
> > requirements... Cool.
> >
> > I think I'll go read their mail archives at let you know how much of it
> > I think is being developed by one guy.  (I mean if all of those people
> > submitted a trivial patch suddenly the day before this proposal was put
> > in and that kind of thing...)
> >
> > It states that its currently run as a benevolent dictatorship but will
> > change when it moves over..  I think that is the incorrect order of
> > operations...
> >
> > Just my opinion..  I'm sorry for the inevitable people whom it has
> > offended.
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 09:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > > John McNally wrote:
> > > > -1.
> > > > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason
> to
> > > > add another.
> > >
> > > It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to
> > > limit itself to two.
> > >
> > > - Sam Ruby
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > --
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> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

I think you'll find good news when you read the mailing list.  A year ago, I
wouldn't have tried to move Tapestry to Jakarta, because the community
wasn't strong enough, but now it seems like participation is there, with
more people contributing ideas and code.  It's also gratifying when users
ask questions on the list and two or three other Tapestry developers answer
the question before I even see it.

"Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  Part of this is
scheduling, deferring suggestings and minor fixes into later releases.
Also, the pace of releases has been determined by me (i.e., when to freeze
code, when to make a final release).  I'd rather have a voting system for
that and buy in from others because its a lot of responsibility to determine
when the code is stable enough (for instance, there is a rather obvious bug
in the 2.2 release that should have been flushed out during the beta).

Much of the evolution of Tapestry starts with a core idea (often, but not
always, from me), is discussed on the list and in the Wiki, and eventually
turned into code (and tests, and documentation).

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> Just my 2c..  If they have a strong community and meet the
> requirements... Cool.
>
> I think I'll go read their mail archives at let you know how much of it
> I think is being developed by one guy.  (I mean if all of those people
> submitted a trivial patch suddenly the day before this proposal was put
> in and that kind of thing...)
>
> It states that its currently run as a benevolent dictatorship but will
> change when it moves over..  I think that is the incorrect order of
> operations...
>
> Just my opinion..  I'm sorry for the inevitable people whom it has
> offended.
>
> -Andy
>
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 09:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > John McNally wrote:
> > > -1.
> > > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason
to
> > > add another.
> >
> > It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to
> > limit itself to two.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:general-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:general-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
> a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Just my 2c..  If they have a strong community and meet the
requirements... Cool.

I think I'll go read their mail archives at let you know how much of it
I think is being developed by one guy.  (I mean if all of those people
submitted a trivial patch suddenly the day before this proposal was put
in and that kind of thing...)

It states that its currently run as a benevolent dictatorship but will
change when it moves over..  I think that is the incorrect order of
operations...  

Just my opinion..  I'm sorry for the inevitable people whom it has
offended. 

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 09:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> John McNally wrote:
> > -1.  
> > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
> > add another.  
> 
> It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
> limit itself to two.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

John McNally wrote:

-1.  
Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
add another.  

It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
limit itself to two.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

-1.  
Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
add another.  It is great that Tapestry uses several jakarta
technologies; I would like to see some evidence of the Tapestry
community being involved in the jakarta projects of which it makes use. 
One other warning sign I see is that the second sentence on the
homepage:  

Tapestry is a powerful, open-source, all-Java framework for creating
leading edge web applications in Java. Tapestry has been developed by
Howard Lewis Ship.

Even though the project has other developers, such a statement so boldly
displayed, is a red flag.  Not that other essentially one man projects
have not attracted developers at jakarta, but, again, jakarta already
has 2 webapp framework projects.

john mcnally

On Fri, 2002-10-18 at 07:29, Ship, Howard wrote:
> Background
> 
> Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge (http://tapestry.sf.net), is 
>component-based web application framework.  Tapestry falls generally into the 
>pull-MVC model of development.
> 
> Tapestry is designed specifically around the creation of completely re-usable 
>components.  Components can easily be packaged into libraries and distributed as Jar 
>files, even when they contain assets such as image files and stylesheets.
> 
> Tapestry is organized around an abstraction that isolates application-specific logic 
>from the details of the servlet API, such as HttpSession, request, response, URLs and 
>query parameters.
> 
> Tapestry is highly pluggable, allowing any and all behavior to be customized by 
>subclassing appropriate base classes.
> 
> Tapestry is specifically not a JSP taglib, though future enhancements (scheduled for 
>the next release) will allow it to partially act as one.  Tapestry uses its own 
>method for instrumenting HTML that is extremely non-obtrusive (it still previews 
>properly in a WYSIWYG editor).  Tapestry has well specified, separate roles for HTML 
>producers and Java developers, and allows them to work together without interfering 
>with each other.
> 
> The goal of Tapestry is to shift much of the burden of developing web applications 
>onto the framework, and free the developer to work cleanly and effectively without 
>concern for the many small details of web application development.  The primary 
>function of Tapestry is the automatic creation of URLs by the framework, facilitating 
>a fine-grained dispatch model.  The bird's-eye view is that, in Tapestry, actions 
>(such as clicking a link, or submitting a form) are associated with a particular 
>component and, through a simple delegation system, a particular bit of user code.  
>There is no global registry of actions, as in Struts, and it's easy to create 
>reusable components that define their own behaviors (in terms of links or forms), 
>independent of the containing page.
> 
> Tapestry applications can be extremely sophisticated with surprising little code.
> 
> Tapestry includes a significant amount of documentation describing its strengths and 
>features in great detail, available at http://tapestry.sf.net.  Live demos, a great 
>collection of user quotes, extensive documentation (HTML and PDF) and a recent code 
>coverage report are all online.
> 
> Tapestry has been an open-source project on SourceForge since June 2000.  Milestone 
>releases (such as 2.1 in July, or the just-released 2.2) result in 6K - 7K downloads 
>(increasing by over 1K downloads with each successive release).  Tapestry has 
>averaged over 3000 downloads a month during 2002, with peaks above 8K/month.
> 
> Tapestry would benefit from Jakarta in terms of greater exposure and acceptance, but 
>also in terms of better infrastructure, such as Bugzilla and Maven.
> 
> Tapestry is currently in the Java package net.sf.tapestry; this could easily be 
>changed to org.apache.tapestry.
> 
> Tapestry is currently licensed under the LGPL, but relicensing under the Apache 
>license is completely acceptible.  The main criteria used when selecting a license 
>three years ago was that Tapestry be open source and reusable even in proprietary 
>software, and both licenses ensure that.
> 
> In order to spur discussions, I've worked through the list of criteria and warning 
>signs (as per http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html).  Pardon the use of 
>third person in reference to myself (it seemed appropriate for prose that will likely 
>be cut and pasted frequently).
> 
> Criteria
> 
> Meritocracy:  Tapestry is currently a benign dictatorship, but it has been Howard 
>Lewis Ship's intention, even prior to considering a move to Jakarta, to organize 
>around more democratic principals.
> 
> Community:  Tapestry has a modest, but very active community, centered around a 
>mailing list (approx. 170 members) and the Tapestry Wiki 
>(http://tapestry.sf.net/wiki).  The Tapestry mailing list has an exceptionally good 
>signal-to-noise ratio; discussions typically revolve around planning new extensions 
>to the framework, creating new

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

Peter Donald wrote:

Hi,

Currently Apache is undergoing discussion about a reorganization. One of the 
things that we are discussing is incubation of new projects coming to Apache 
and how to bring new projects into our fold.

I suspect people are still deciding what to do and it may be the case that you 
could be one of the first projects to go through the incubation project. And 
then again it may not ;) 

Anyways people could take a few days ot answer you so don't be discouraged if 
no one replies imediately ;)

Also keep in mind guys that it's all more like "how" to do it rather 
than "if" to do it  ;-)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

Hi,

Currently Apache is undergoing discussion about a reorganization. One of the 
things that we are discussing is incubation of new projects coming to Apache 
and how to bring new projects into our fold.

I suspect people are still deciding what to do and it may be the case that you 
could be one of the first projects to go through the incubation project. And 
then again it may not ;) 

Anyways people could take a few days ot answer you so don't be discouraged if 
no one replies imediately ;)


On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:29, Ship, Howard wrote:
> Background
>
> Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge (http://tapestry.sf.net), is
> component-based web application framework.  Tapestry falls generally into
> the pull-MVC model of development.
>
> Tapestry is designed specifically around the creation of completely
> re-usable components.  Components can easily be packaged into libraries and
> distributed as Jar files, even when they contain assets such as image files
> and stylesheets.
>
> Tapestry is organized around an abstraction that isolates
> application-specific logic from the details of the servlet API, such as
> HttpSession, request, response, URLs and query parameters.
>
> Tapestry is highly pluggable, allowing any and all behavior to be
> customized by subclassing appropriate base classes.
>
> Tapestry is specifically not a JSP taglib, though future enhancements
> (scheduled for the next release) will allow it to partially act as one. 
> Tapestry uses its own method for instrumenting HTML that is extremely
> non-obtrusive (it still previews properly in a WYSIWYG editor).  Tapestry
> has well specified, separate roles for HTML producers and Java developers,
> and allows them to work together without interfering with each other.
>
> The goal of Tapestry is to shift much of the burden of developing web
> applications onto the framework, and free the developer to work cleanly and
> effectively without concern for the many small details of web application
> development.  The primary function of Tapestry is the automatic creation of
> URLs by the framework, facilitating a fine-grained dispatch model.  The
> bird's-eye view is that, in Tapestry, actions (such as clicking a link, or
> submitting a form) are associated with a particular component and, through
> a simple delegation system, a particular bit of user code.  There is no
> global registry of actions, as in Struts, and it's easy to create reusable
> components that define their own behaviors (in terms of links or forms),
> independent of the containing page.
>
> Tapestry applications can be extremely sophisticated with surprising little
> code.
>
> Tapestry includes a significant amount of documentation describing its
> strengths and features in great detail, available at
> http://tapestry.sf.net.  Live demos, a great collection of user quotes,
> extensive documentation (HTML and PDF) and a recent code coverage report
> are all online.
>
> Tapestry has been an open-source project on SourceForge since June 2000. 
> Milestone releases (such as 2.1 in July, or the just-released 2.2) result
> in 6K - 7K downloads (increasing by over 1K downloads with each successive
> release).  Tapestry has averaged over 3000 downloads a month during 2002,
> with peaks above 8K/month.
>
> Tapestry would benefit from Jakarta in terms of greater exposure and
> acceptance, but also in terms of better infrastructure, such as Bugzilla
> and Maven.
>
> Tapestry is currently in the Java package net.sf.tapestry; this could
> easily be changed to org.apache.tapestry.
>
> Tapestry is currently licensed under the LGPL, but relicensing under the
> Apache license is completely acceptible.  The main criteria used when
> selecting a license three years ago was that Tapestry be open source and
> reusable even in proprietary software, and both licenses ensure that.
>
> In order to spur discussions, I've worked through the list of criteria and
> warning signs (as per http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html). 
> Pardon the use of third person in reference to myself (it seemed
> appropriate for prose that will likely be cut and pasted frequently).
>
> Criteria
>
> Meritocracy:  Tapestry is currently a benign dictatorship, but it has been
> Howard Lewis Ship's intention, even prior to considering a move to Jakarta,
> to organize around more democratic principals.
>
> Community:  Tapestry has a modest, but very active community, centered
> around a mailing list (approx. 170 members) and the Tapestry Wiki
> (http://tapestry.sf.net/wiki).  The Tapestry mailing list has an
> exceptionally good signal-to-noise ratio; discussions typically revolve
> around planning new extensions to the framework, creating new components
> and documentation, and diagnosing developer issues.
>
> Core Developers.  The principal developer for the life of the project is
> Howard Lewis Ship, he will continue his involvement with Tapestry
> indefinitely.  Richard Lewis-Shell and Mind Bridge are frequent
> 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Erik Hatcher]

+1

Ship, Howard wrote:

Background

Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge (http://tapestry.sf.net), is component-based web application framework.  Tapestry falls generally into the pull-MVC model of development.


[...]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Henri Yandell]

We've used Tapestry at work. My colleague is very impressed with it and
has had good vibes from contributing back to Howard. [I'm more
conservative and despite liking the ideas in general, wanted us to back
off to a simpler system until we could have time to understand Tapestry
better. Sorry Howard :)].

It fits Jakarta well, as far as I can tell it does tackle things from a
different angle [not a must, but a nice for a proposal], (and it uses
commons-lang so I've gotta be a believer *grin*).

Anyway, it sounds like a great idea to me. +1.

Hen

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Ship, Howard wrote:

> Background
>
> Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge
> (http://tapestry.sf.net), is component-based web application
> framework.  Tapestry falls generally into the pull-MVC model of
> development.
>


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[PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Ship, Howard]

Background

Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge (http://tapestry.sf.net), is 
component-based web application framework.  Tapestry falls generally into the pull-MVC 
model of development.

Tapestry is designed specifically around the creation of completely re-usable 
components.  Components can easily be packaged into libraries and distributed as Jar 
files, even when they contain assets such as image files and stylesheets.

Tapestry is organized around an abstraction that isolates application-specific logic 
from the details of the servlet API, such as HttpSession, request, response, URLs and 
query parameters.

Tapestry is highly pluggable, allowing any and all behavior to be customized by 
subclassing appropriate base classes.

Tapestry is specifically not a JSP taglib, though future enhancements (scheduled for 
the next release) will allow it to partially act as one.  Tapestry uses its own method 
for instrumenting HTML that is extremely non-obtrusive (it still previews properly in 
a WYSIWYG editor).  Tapestry has well specified, separate roles for HTML producers and 
Java developers, and allows them to work together without interfering with each other.

The goal of Tapestry is to shift much of the burden of developing web applications 
onto the framework, and free the developer to work cleanly and effectively without 
concern for the many small details of web application development.  The primary 
function of Tapestry is the automatic creation of URLs by the framework, facilitating 
a fine-grained dispatch model.  The bird's-eye view is that, in Tapestry, actions 
(such as clicking a link, or submitting a form) are associated with a particular 
component and, through a simple delegation system, a particular bit of user code.  
There is no global registry of actions, as in Struts, and it's easy to create reusable 
components that define their own behaviors (in terms of links or forms), independent 
of the containing page.

Tapestry applications can be extremely sophisticated with surprising little code.

Tapestry includes a significant amount of documentation describing its strengths and 
features in great detail, available at http://tapestry.sf.net.  Live demos, a great 
collection of user quotes, extensive documentation (HTML and PDF) and a recent code 
coverage report are all online.

Tapestry has been an open-source project on SourceForge since June 2000.  Milestone 
releases (such as 2.1 in July, or the just-released 2.2) result in 6K - 7K downloads 
(increasing by over 1K downloads with each successive release).  Tapestry has averaged 
over 3000 downloads a month during 2002, with peaks above 8K/month.

Tapestry would benefit from Jakarta in terms of greater exposure and acceptance, but 
also in terms of better infrastructure, such as Bugzilla and Maven.

Tapestry is currently in the Java package net.sf.tapestry; this could easily be 
changed to org.apache.tapestry.

Tapestry is currently licensed under the LGPL, but relicensing under the Apache 
license is completely acceptible.  The main criteria used when selecting a license 
three years ago was that Tapestry be open source and reusable even in proprietary 
software, and both licenses ensure that.

In order to spur discussions, I've worked through the list of criteria and warning 
signs (as per http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html).  Pardon the use of 
third person in reference to myself (it seemed appropriate for prose that will likely 
be cut and pasted frequently).

Criteria

Meritocracy:  Tapestry is currently a benign dictatorship, but it has been Howard 
Lewis Ship's intention, even prior to considering a move to Jakarta, to organize 
around more democratic principals.

Community:  Tapestry has a modest, but very active community, centered around a 
mailing list (approx. 170 members) and the Tapestry Wiki 
(http://tapestry.sf.net/wiki).  The Tapestry mailing list has an exceptionally good 
signal-to-noise ratio; discussions typically revolve around planning new extensions to 
the framework, creating new components and documentation, and diagnosing developer 
issues.

Core Developers.  The principal developer for the life of the project is Howard Lewis 
Ship, he will continue his involvement with Tapestry indefinitely.  Richard 
Lewis-Shell and Mind Bridge are frequent contributors of components and bug fixes.  
Neil Clayton and Malcolm Edgar provide some code and significant amounts of 
documentation.  Geoff Longman has created an excellent plugin for the Eclipse IDE (as 
a separate project).  Several other developers have contributed bugs fixes, components 
or documentation in the past.

Alignment:  Tapestry makes use of the ORO, commons-lang and commons-logging packages 
internally.

Scope:  Tapestry is entirely a server-side framework, well aligned with the overall 
goals of the Jakarta project.

Warning Signs

Orphaned products.  Tapestry is far from orphaned, it was originally conceived and 
executed specificall