Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On Fri, 2007-20-07 at 00:57 +0100, Olivier Crête wrote: > On Thu, 2007-19-07 at 15:22 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:02 -0600, Jim Ramsay wrote: > > > I'm all for doing it now in the profile, but it's not my package. > > > Perhaps someone from the net-im herd can make this decision? > > > > Well, as someone who spends a lot of time working on/with profiles, I > > say go for it. Since these changes would only affect the one package > > and wouldn't pull in any "strange" dependencies on people, we should > > probably do it as high in the profile structure as possible (base? > > default-linux?) so it hits the most users. > > > > I'd like to hear from net-im, as they're ultimately responsible, but I > > don't really see the harm in doing it, so we probably should as it will > > reduce headaches for our users. > > Talking with my net-im hat, I'd say go for it.. Except for silc and > zephyr (which may or may not work very well) and should probably stay > off. Again with my net-im hat, I've removed the MSN use flag from net-im/pidgin-2.0.2 (the latest version). The other protocols are rarely used and have nasty dependencies and will stay as use flags. I consider this discussion closed. -- Olivier Crête [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On Thu, 2007-19-07 at 15:22 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:02 -0600, Jim Ramsay wrote: > > I'm all for doing it now in the profile, but it's not my package. > > Perhaps someone from the net-im herd can make this decision? > > Well, as someone who spends a lot of time working on/with profiles, I > say go for it. Since these changes would only affect the one package > and wouldn't pull in any "strange" dependencies on people, we should > probably do it as high in the profile structure as possible (base? > default-linux?) so it hits the most users. > > I'd like to hear from net-im, as they're ultimately responsible, but I > don't really see the harm in doing it, so we probably should as it will > reduce headaches for our users. Talking with my net-im hat, I'd say go for it.. Except for silc and zephyr (which may or may not work very well) and should probably stay off. -- Olivier Crête [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:02 -0600, Jim Ramsay wrote: > I'm all for doing it now in the profile, but it's not my package. > Perhaps someone from the net-im herd can make this decision? Well, as someone who spends a lot of time working on/with profiles, I say go for it. Since these changes would only affect the one package and wouldn't pull in any "strange" dependencies on people, we should probably do it as high in the profile structure as possible (base? default-linux?) so it hits the most users. I'd like to hear from net-im, as they're ultimately responsible, but I don't really see the harm in doing it, so we probably should as it will reduce headaches for our users. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Eric Polino wrote: > Alright, well I appreciate all the thought and discussion that > exploded about this problem. The pidgin team appreciates it. Though > I'm sorry to say I'm not up to speed with all this Gentoo talk. I > gather that when IUSE defaults come out, the ability to specify > default USE flags on a per package basis will be available in the > ebuild, but other than that I'm somewhat lost as to what was just > talked about. Can someone break it down for a simple user/would like > to be maintainer someday, so that I can have a better cleaner answer > to bring back to the pidgin team. I believe the short answer is: - Yes, we /could/ do this now in the profile. - Once IUSE defaults are allowed, we can then do it in a different (perhaps better?) way. The question remaining yet that I've seen no answer for yet: Will we do it now in the profile? Or will we instead just have a big notice in the ebuild that says "You may be missing protocols because of your USE flags, please check your USE flags and maybe re-emerge pidgin again if you forgot some protocol you really wanted" At least that's how I read this thread. I'm all for doing it now in the profile, but it's not my package. Perhaps someone from the net-im herd can make this decision? -- Jim Ramsay Gentoo/Linux Developer (rox,gkrellm) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols)
On 7/19/07, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 joshua jackson wrote: > Jakub Moc wrote: >> Petteri Rýty napsal(a): >>> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are >>> implemented. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Petteri >> As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. >> Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles. > >> Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use >> emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the >> profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain >> upstream about a 'missing' feature? > > > >> -- > >> !DSPAM:469f3b40137571336712104! > Honestly..this is not something to get picky over jakub. Upstream was > nice and actually came and politely asked us to change the defaults to > what most people would consider sane (all protocols by default). As I > think most people emerging pidgin..would like to use any protocol by > default..not go..hey I don't have yahoo, I should check my use flags. > Which obviously hasn't happened as users pop up in #pidgin to ask why > the heck there isn't a yahoo account available. > > This should be a nothing change to do. Its also working with upstream > and maintaining some good relationships here..and or help improve them > in general. That should in fact you know...be part of our goalsto > improve communications between Gentoo and other projects. Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to go and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be found and which can put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. It would also make it easier for users to start helping developers and eventually become developers themselves, since they won't need to search for a point of entry anymore. Not sure if this fits in to what you're talking about, but I do know that as myself a "would like to me maintainer someday", I'm somewhat lost as to knowing how I can get involved and who I need to talk to. Eric Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGn5Jxp/VmCx0OL2wRAoJlAKCzuF92/4rDf/Cty2uOMDC1mZXdBwCdEj/y cOnwaXHjD8aDvJQ+XShHQ7E= =dfna -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- http://aluink.blogspot.com -- "...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." --Haskell 98 Library Report -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Alright, well I appreciate all the thought and discussion that exploded about this problem. The pidgin team appreciates it. Though I'm sorry to say I'm not up to speed with all this Gentoo talk. I gather that when IUSE defaults come out, the ability to specify default USE flags on a per package basis will be available in the ebuild, but other than that I'm somewhat lost as to what was just talked about. Can someone break it down for a simple user/would like to be maintainer someday, so that I can have a better cleaner answer to bring back to the pidgin team. Thanks again, Eric On 7/19/07, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:08:20 +0200 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So just start using IUSE defaults! There's no problem with doing it > at once since it can be considered as a part of EAPI=0. No, IUSE defaults are EAPI 1. -- Ciaran McCreesh -- http://aluink.blogspot.com -- "...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." --Haskell 98 Library Report -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:08:20 +0200 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So just start using IUSE defaults! There's no problem with doing it > at once since it can be considered as a part of EAPI=0. No, IUSE defaults are EAPI 1. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On 19/07/07, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Unfortunately, that is the state we're currently in with regards to our > profiles and the tree. I know I would *love* to see us start using IUSE > defaults as soon as possible in the tree. So just start using IUSE defaults! There's no problem with doing it at once since it can be considered as a part of EAPI=0. Uhh, no it can't. That's the point of EAPI. Ebuilds with different EAPIs are incompatible, so if you start shoving '+'s in IUSE without setting EAPI to 1, all the pm's should explode rather noisily. (Unless you're talking about using package.use in profiles/, which iirc can be used with EAPI 0 ebuilds). -- -Charlie -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 2007-07-19 18:52:59 Chris Gianelloni napisał(a): > On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 12:19 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote: > > Petteri Räty napsal(a): > > > Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are > > > implemented. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Petteri > > > > As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. > > Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to > > profiles. > > > > Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use > > emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the > > profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain > > upstream about a 'missing' feature? > > Unfortunately, that is the state we're currently in with regards to our > profiles and the tree. I know I would *love* to see us start using IUSE > defaults as soon as possible in the tree. So just start using IUSE defaults! There's no problem with doing it at once since it can be considered as a part of EAPI=0. - -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGn5rN/axNJ4Xo/ZERAkQkAJ9W0+c4+sSVNWTIgZQsavHMQsbKvgCfTdVq F2sZo6zkymYT4/A30k/c/Wg= =VZZf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 12:19 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote: > Petteri Räty napsal(a): > > Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are > > implemented. > > > > Regards, > > Petteri > > As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. > Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles. > > Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use > emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the > profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain > upstream about a 'missing' feature? Unfortunately, that is the state we're currently in with regards to our profiles and the tree. I know I would *love* to see us start using IUSE defaults as soon as possible in the tree. It really would keep the profiles from bloating out too much with ebuild-specific USE flags and such. Also, we (releng) have a current policy of not really allowing local USE in the profiles unless we absolutely have to do so. I mean in USE in make.defaults, not in package.use, which is perfectly acceptable. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Improving developer/user communication (was Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 joshua jackson wrote: > Jakub Moc wrote: >> Petteri Rýty napsal(a): >>> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are >>> implemented. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Petteri >> As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. >> Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles. > >> Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use >> emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the >> profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain >> upstream about a 'missing' feature? > > > >> -- > >> !DSPAM:469f3b40137571336712104! > Honestly..this is not something to get picky over jakub. Upstream was > nice and actually came and politely asked us to change the defaults to > what most people would consider sane (all protocols by default). As I > think most people emerging pidgin..would like to use any protocol by > default..not go..hey I don't have yahoo, I should check my use flags. > Which obviously hasn't happened as users pop up in #pidgin to ask why > the heck there isn't a yahoo account available. > > This should be a nothing change to do. Its also working with upstream > and maintaining some good relationships here..and or help improve them > in general. That should in fact you know...be part of our goalsto > improve communications between Gentoo and other projects. Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to go and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be found and which can put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. It would also make it easier for users to start helping developers and eventually become developers themselves, since they won't need to search for a point of entry anymore. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGn5Jxp/VmCx0OL2wRAoJlAKCzuF92/4rDf/Cty2uOMDC1mZXdBwCdEj/y cOnwaXHjD8aDvJQ+XShHQ7E= =dfna -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jakub Moc wrote: > Petteri Räty napsal(a): >> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are >> implemented. >> >> Regards, >> Petteri > > As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. > Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles. > > Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use > emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the > profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain > upstream about a 'missing' feature? > > > > -- > > !DSPAM:469f3b40137571336712104! Honestly..this is not something to get picky over jakub. Upstream was nice and actually came and politely asked us to change the defaults to what most people would consider sane (all protocols by default). As I think most people emerging pidgin..would like to use any protocol by default..not go..hey I don't have yahoo, I should check my use flags. Which obviously hasn't happened as users pop up in #pidgin to ask why the heck there isn't a yahoo account available. This should be a nothing change to do. Its also working with upstream and maintaining some good relationships here..and or help improve them in general. That should in fact you know...be part of our goalsto improve communications between Gentoo and other projects. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGoN572ZWR0Jhg/EsRAgc6AJ0VsBkFjPd2oeL3rf5omoNApx7UfwCfaw2T 1MaeNz8c3tGAnJ4bDQ/J9as= =hmCp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti: > On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:19:11 +0200 > Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. >> Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to >> profiles. > > What, it belongs in multiple ebuild files, rather than a single profile > file? > Let's not get into this debate in this thread. There was a thread that was discussing this a while ago so all the argumentation about the general case belongs there. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:19:11 +0200 Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. > Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to > profiles. What, it belongs in multiple ebuild files, rather than a single profile file? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Jakub Moc kirjoitti: > Petteri Räty napsal(a): >> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are >> implemented. >> >> Regards, >> Petteri > > As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. > Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles. > > Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use > emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the > profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain > upstream about a 'missing' feature? > The policy is to have sane defaults for emerge . OK good that they are implemented. Let's say then until EAPI-1 is approved instead. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Petteri Räty napsal(a): > Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are > implemented. > > Regards, > Petteri As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree. Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles. Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain upstream about a 'missing' feature? -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Luca Barbato kirjoitti: > Eric Polino wrote: >> Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin >> turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking >> for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working. >> It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE >> flag. > > looks like it's another case for IUSE defaults > > make sense leaving a big glowing ewarn about it anyway, no point in > getting pidgin people pissed of at us again because of our users. > > lu - that will haunt #pidgin now and then asking for the updated y! protocol > Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are implemented. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
Eric Polino wrote: > Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin > turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking > for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working. > It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE > flag. looks like it's another case for IUSE defaults make sense leaving a big glowing ewarn about it anyway, no point in getting pidgin people pissed of at us again because of our users. lu - that will haunt #pidgin now and then asking for the updated y! protocol -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
On 7/19/07, Caleb Cushing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: another option could just be to enable the protocols in the ebuild by default (or does that have to be done globally in profile?) and force users to turn them off if they don't want them. Yeah that would have to be done in the profile. We could have extended use flags added that are on by default in the profile. Though I would think this to be overkill for this problem. On 7/19/07, Eric Polino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin > turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking > for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working. > It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE > flag. > > There is nothing gained in turning a protocol off. At the very most > you might save on 100K of memory, and a small amount of compile time > (pidgin takes a good while to compile, so this is a small percentage). > On the other hand, by having them off by default, people often lose a > lot of time figuring out why they are missing some protocol. Finding > out which ones they want, setting up package.use... The wanted gain > is lost in research and setup time. I would understand if they were > huge aspects of the application that took up tons of HD space, tons of > RAM and took a while to compile, but they aren't. > > I have two suggestions for solutions. The protocol flags could be > removed and would make them on all the time. Or if the overzealous > user insists on having some off, there could be negative flags such as > nomsn, noaim, etc. > > I am busy with a GSoC project right now, but I can offer a diff for an > ebuild that would provide this functionality once I find time to. > > Thanks, > Eric > > -- > http://aluink.blogspot.com > > -- > "...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose > domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." > --Haskell 98 Library Report > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > > -- Caleb Cushing -- http://aluink.blogspot.com -- "...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." --Haskell 98 Library Report -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols
another option could just be to enable the protocols in the ebuild by default (or does that have to be done globally in profile?) and force users to turn them off if they don't want them. On 7/19/07, Eric Polino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working. It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE flag. There is nothing gained in turning a protocol off. At the very most you might save on 100K of memory, and a small amount of compile time (pidgin takes a good while to compile, so this is a small percentage). On the other hand, by having them off by default, people often lose a lot of time figuring out why they are missing some protocol. Finding out which ones they want, setting up package.use... The wanted gain is lost in research and setup time. I would understand if they were huge aspects of the application that took up tons of HD space, tons of RAM and took a while to compile, but they aren't. I have two suggestions for solutions. The protocol flags could be removed and would make them on all the time. Or if the overzealous user insists on having some off, there could be negative flags such as nomsn, noaim, etc. I am busy with a GSoC project right now, but I can offer a diff for an ebuild that would provide this functionality once I find time to. Thanks, Eric -- http://aluink.blogspot.com -- "...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." --Haskell 98 Library Report -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- Caleb Cushing
