[gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
The 09/09/11, Michael Schreckenbauer wrote: The question arose, when Canek mentioned bluetoothd, that udev seems to need in some cases. This is wrong. udev on its own does not require extra tools from /usr. Though, the rules used by udev do use software in /usr. It's NOT a udev fault _at all_. This is how developers wrote software and because they wanted to hook themselves early at boot time, using udev facility. They are PulseAudio, NetworkManager, libatasmart, ALSA, D-Bus, CUPS, VirtualBox, usbmuxd, bluetoothd and a LOT of other tools. It's even worse when you know that some scripts are written in python. Everybody can write its own rules without even think about direct (or hidden) /usr dependency. Again, udev is NOT to blame. If bluetoothd doesn't quite fit to /bin or /sbin (I tend to agree here), but is needed before /usr is mounted, then it has to be put *somewhere*. I don't say, that this is the way to go. Only searching for alternatives to a forced initramfs. So, what's the good way to fix all that mess? Certainly not moving most of software to /. Fortunately, we can expect /usr to be mounted before udev starts via the initramfs. It does NOT mean everybody will require a initramfs. It means people WANTING a seperate /usr will need a initramfs. The good thing is that a lot of tools now in / will be granted back to /usr. Let's clean up /. Also, it's a _good_ news for admins expecting to maintain systems with a shared /usr (e.g. over the network). -- Nicolas Sebrecht
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
Hi, On Monday, 12. September 2011 10:40:02 Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: The 09/09/11, Michael Schreckenbauer wrote: The question arose, when Canek mentioned bluetoothd, that udev seems to need in some cases. This is wrong. udev on its own does not require extra tools from /usr. Though, the rules used by udev do use software in /usr. It's NOT a udev fault _at all_. Well, this is details. Where's the diffference from user-point-of-view, whether it's udev itself or some scripts executed by udev? And I tend to disagree, with the not udev's fault part. udev treats all exit-codes from scripts as if the device were not present. This includes errors of all kinds. How is this supposed to work at all? So, what's the good way to fix all that mess? Certainly not moving most of software to /. Fortunately, we can expect /usr to be mounted before udev starts via the initramfs. That's *your* opinion. Most people on this list disagree. It does NOT mean everybody will require a initramfs. It means people WANTING a seperate /usr will need a initramfs. The good thing is that a lot of tools now in / will be granted back to /usr. Let's clean up /. Also, it's a _good_ news for admins expecting to maintain systems with a shared /usr (e.g. over the network). Since when is a mandatory initramfs a good thing for admins? Care to explain? Regards, Michael
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
Michael Schreckenbauer wrote: Hi, On Monday, 12. September 2011 10:40:02 Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: So, what's the good way to fix all that mess? Certainly not moving most of software to /. Fortunately, we can expect /usr to be mounted before udev starts via the initramfs. That's *your* opinion. Most people on this list disagree. It does NOT mean everybody will require a initramfs. It means people WANTING a seperate /usr will need a initramfs. The good thing is that a lot of tools now in / will be granted back to /usr. Let's clean up /. Also, it's a _good_ news for admins expecting to maintain systems with a shared /usr (e.g. over the network). Since when is a mandatory initramfs a good thing for admins? Care to explain? Regards, Michael Couldn't agree more. Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
The 09/09/11, Michael Schreckenbauer wrote: Am Donnerstag, 8. September 2011, 23:44:41 schrieb Alan McKinnon: On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:29:40 + Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: Would it not be possible to have a minimal /usr tree in the root partition for udev's use at boot time, and to later mount a more robust /usr partition over this? What am I missing here? A big problem will be that the package manager cannot easily maintain that phase 1 code as it's under another mount point. Doing so would require the package manager to bind-mount / somewhere and copy updated binaries of essential packages there as well as into the real /usr. Not an insurmountable problem, it just requires changes to all affected packages, and well within the capabilities of distros. Couldn't whatever mounts /usr bind-mount this hidden /usr somewhere (where, I think, could be a good question here) before mounting the real one? Then it would be visible even after the real /usr is mounted. So, you're asking if it's smart to use yet another path (hidden once finished to properly boot) to store what is currently stored in /bin and /sbin... Remember: the only reason why /bin and /sbin exist is to have tools available during boot time to mount /usr. -- Nicolas Sebrecht
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
Am Freitag, 9. September 2011, 10:06:21 schrieb Nicolas Sebrecht: The 09/09/11, Michael Schreckenbauer wrote: Am Donnerstag, 8. September 2011, 23:44:41 schrieb Alan McKinnon: On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:29:40 + Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: Would it not be possible to have a minimal /usr tree in the root partition for udev's use at boot time, and to later mount a more robust /usr partition over this? What am I missing here? A big problem will be that the package manager cannot easily maintain that phase 1 code as it's under another mount point. Doing so would require the package manager to bind-mount / somewhere and copy updated binaries of essential packages there as well as into the real /usr. Not an insurmountable problem, it just requires changes to all affected packages, and well within the capabilities of distros. Couldn't whatever mounts /usr bind-mount this hidden /usr somewhere (where, I think, could be a good question here) before mounting the real one? Then it would be visible even after the real /usr is mounted. So, you're asking if it's smart to use yet another path (hidden once finished to properly boot) to store what is currently stored in /bin and /sbin... Remember: the only reason why /bin and /sbin exist is to have tools available during boot time to mount /usr. The question arose, when Canek mentioned bluetoothd, that udev seems to need in some cases. If bluetoothd doesn't quite fit to /bin or /sbin (I tend to agree here), but is needed before /usr is mounted, then it has to be put *somewhere*. I don't say, that this is the way to go. Only searching for alternatives to a forced initramfs. Regards, Michael
[gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
Neil Bothwick writes: On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:04:17 -0400, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Putting it on a logical volume is one advantage, allowing /usr to be resized should the need arise. Why not allow / to be resized entirely? You probably will take the machine off-line anyway. Because you can't boot from an LV, so you'd than need a separate /boot and an initramfs. Without LVM, you are unlikely to be able to resize / or /usr as it is not usually the last partition on the drive. Isn't it possible now with grub2?. I think it can read inside LVM partitions. I have not personally tested it but I have a RAID system with no separate /boot partition — a close case. -- Alberto
[gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
Alberto Luaces writes: Neil Bothwick writes: On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:04:17 -0400, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Putting it on a logical volume is one advantage, allowing /usr to be resized should the need arise. Why not allow / to be resized entirely? You probably will take the machine off-line anyway. Because you can't boot from an LV, so you'd than need a separate /boot and an initramfs. Without LVM, you are unlikely to be able to resize / or /usr as it is not usually the last partition on the drive. Isn't it possible now with grub2?. I think it can read inside LVM partitions. I have not personally tested it but I have a RAID system with no separate /boot partition — a close case. Ah, you mean without initramfs. -- Alberto
[gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
On 08/18/2011 10:08 PM, András Csányi wrote: On 18 August 2011 18:59,fra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, guys It is a shame, I know, but after several years using Gentoo, it is the first time I try to build a kernel without genkernel. And now I can't boot to that new kernel, it does not find (and really do not have a) /dev/sda* root partition (real-root); during the boot it stops, complaining about that, gives me the option to get a shell, from which I am able to see that there is no /dev/sda* . I have included everything SATA, so it looks like that is not a kernel problem, but a initramfs issue, I guess. What am I missing? Why have you choose this way? I mean, non-genkernel way. genkernel generates generic (bloated) kernels.
[gentoo-user] Re: /dev/sda* missing at boot
On Friday 19 August 2011, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 08/18/2011 10:08 PM, András Csányi wrote: On 18 August 2011 18:59,fra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, guys It is a shame, I know, but after several years using Gentoo, it is the first time I try to build a kernel without genkernel. And now I can't boot to that new kernel, it does not find (and really do not have a) /dev/sda* root partition (real-root); during the boot it stops, complaining about that, gives me the option to get a shell, from which I am able to see that there is no /dev/sda* . I have included everything SATA, so it looks like that is not a kernel problem, but a initramfs issue, I guess. What am I missing? Why have you choose this way? I mean, non-genkernel way. genkernel generates generic (bloated) kernels. This is a generalization, not entirely true: genkernel --no-clean --no-mrproper --kerneldir=blabla all With the above command, for example, you can provide your own .config and genkernel will do exactly as you wish. Cheers Francesco -- Linux Version 3.0.0-gentoo, Compiled #3 SMP PREEMPT Fri Aug 5 21:02:22 CEST 2011 Two 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 Processors, 4GB RAM, 4021.84 Bogomips Total aemaeth
