Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Bill Ricker]

Please go see "reader Rabbit" or "Math Blaster" in action with kids
who are in Kindergarten through fourth grade.  Then it will be clear to
you.


Right on Jeff.  My daughter loved Reader Rabbit.  I credit Reader
Rabbit and Harry Potter between them  for my daughter being literate.

Of course, this is the daughter that likes Windows XP Home and fills
the harddrive with WMA soundfiles to my shame, so there is a downside
to Reader Rabbit. Which would be solved by the $100 laptop, no MS
Windows ...

--
Bill
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Re: Liquid Cooling

[Dave Johnson]

Ben Scott writes:
> On 5/30/06, Sean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I actually figured there would have been a few people here who would be
> > using liquid cooling, but no responses.
> 
>   For whatever reason, the members of this group appear to tend
> towards a pragmatic bent, and/or are IT professionals.  Liquid cooling
> is generally not cost-effective (it gives you a comparatively small
> performance gain, for a high cost and risk).  It's major application
> seems to be so people can indulge in games of one-up-manship.  Nothing
> wrong with that, but you don't see it much in a business environment.
> 
> -- Ben

If you're after a quieter computer (as to over-clocking) there are some
easier steps to take before liquid cooling:

* Invest in a quieter cpu HS/Fan with adjustable speed (manual or
  temperature based).  I've had great success with Zalman parts.

* Get a case with BIG intake/exhaust fans, 120mm is very good, 60mm
  should be avoided at all costs.

* If the fan covers are punched out of the case material cut them out
  especially if they are made up of tiny holes.  Replace with an
  attachable wire grill.  I've seen some cases with more than 66% of
  the fan covered with only very small holes cut out.  You can double or
  triple the airflow by opening up the fan.

* If your case rattles or vibrates get some sound dampening material.
  I've had very good success with Akasa PaxMate brand material.

* If you're motherboard has a north-bridge fan, consider replacing it
  with a large passive heat sink.  Some companies sell these but this
  of course isn't for the novice.  Same goes for a GPU fan.

* Get an adjustable fan speed controller for your case fans.  If
  you've done the above steps you can under-volt your case fans
  significantly and still get more than enough airflow.  A good 80mm
  case fan can be very quiet at 1300rpm and still push a lot of
  airflow if it is unobstructed.

-- 
Dave

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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

   And here in the US, the OLPC might -- hey, I said "might"! -- work to
establish an affordable, de facto EdTech standard and break schools out of
the marketing-driven/gee-whiz/gadget-minded mode that they've been in
forever.


No chance of that I'm afraid.  Public school IT is driven by the
need/desire/bureaucratic pressure to go for the most expensive choices
rather than the most effective..


 And laptops are too expensive to distribute to the children living
in "third world" countries.

 We're very optimistic about changing things elsewhere; why not try
to change things for the better here, too?

-- Ben
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Re: Liquid Cooling

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Sean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I actually figured there would have been a few people here who would be
using liquid cooling, but no responses.


 For whatever reason, the members of this group appear to tend
towards a pragmatic bent, and/or are IT professionals.  Liquid cooling
is generally not cost-effective (it gives you a comparatively small
performance gain, for a high cost and risk).  It's major application
seems to be so people can indulge in games of one-up-manship.  Nothing
wrong with that, but you don't see it much in a business environment.

-- Ben
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Re: OLPC - "eaten my homework"

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The cost of producing a good textbook, even if the licensing/royalties
are zero, is very high.


  Source?  Numbers?  Hard data?


Family in the biz.  textbooks are a very different market that any other
printed matter.  They have stringently high costs because their
construction and content is different than anything else except coffee
table books., and yet their printing runs are tiny so the one-time costs
must be amortized over a much smaller number of volumes than regular
books.  That raises the per unit cost.


 By "content", it isn't clear if you mean physical materials or
subject matter.  If it's the later, the costs are the same for both
printed and ebooks, as I already pointed out.  If it's the former,
printed matter is not so expensive if you do it in volume.  Recall
that one of the fundamental assumptions of the OLPC project is a very
large volume to achieve new economies of scale.  If we apply those
same assumptions to the dead tree methods, you get similar savings.
The OLPC project isn't using $800 Dell laptops; don't assume a TTPC
(Ten Textbooks Per Child ;-) ) project would use $50, small-run,
high-royalty, US-style textbooks.


>   While I've never printed a text book, per se, I have been near the
> production of other printed matter, and with sufficiently high
> volumes, costs go under a dollar, even with hundreds of pages.  Of
> course, I would expect a durable text book to cost more.  But even if
> it costs *ten times* as much, we're talking $10.

   Source?  Numbers?  Hard data?  :-)


 As I said, I've never printed a text book.  But I have been involved
in support of efforts to produce low-volume copies of local manuals
and brochures, and if you do it in volume, prices can get very low.

 Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, ten "books" of 200 pages
each, and 500,000 copies of each.  That's a total of 1,000,000,000
(one billion pages).  This is probably a big underestimate, but it
gives me some numbers to work with.  Based on the price progression
seen at http://www.nationalcolorcopy.com/ (first vendor found via
Google that published prices), we can expect 0.005 (one-half cent) per
page.  (I'd actually expect a better deal for a project of this
magnitude, but I wanted to cite a source.)  That works out to $1 per
book before binding.

 Again, this isn't what it would actually cost to print a text book,
but a demonstration of how quickly prices get low if you print in
volume.

 None of this is intended to be an argument for or against
manufacturing textbooks *or* laptops; just information intended to
paint a more complete picture.  I don't have enough information to
hold an opinion on either option (but I have enough information to
know when others aren't presenting enough information).


  And, in most ways, 500 megabytes.  The mesh network is a nice
concept, but I don't really see it spanning the continent of Africa
any time soon.


http://www.green-wifi.org/


 Um yah.  I notice there doesn't seem to be anything about going
beyond a community-sized network.  To get to the net, it assumes
there's a nice, big, wealthy university nearby providing you the net
feed ("RoofNet")

 Again, this is merely reality check.  Community wifi mesh networks,
a definite possibility.  Contient-spanning ad-hoc networks, not so
much.

 How much of the target audience has enough netfeed to enable even
the community network model of Internet access?


100 text books, composed, printed, bound, distributed and delivered for about 1 
dollar
each.


 Composing the text is *AGAIN* the same cost regardless of printed or
e- book.  Likewise, distributing and delivering those laptops.  Plus
the costs, both capital and reoccurring, of running the netfeed out to
everyone (for your infinite storage).  It seems that it's a popular
myth that if you sprinkle a little "digital" or "electronic" on
something, all your costs just disappear.  It ain't so.

 Printing and binding are valid cost concerns.  See above.


Or maybe the laptops just end up being used as light sources.  ;-)


Worlds most expensive Lamp!  :)


 While that remark was tongue-in-cheek, it's not entirely facetious .
There are various cases of similar misuse or misunderstanding of
technological gifts to "less developed" cultures.  Hell, in *this*
culture, I work with people who print every customer email they
receive, for their records.  >sigh<

-- Ben
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Re: Liquid Cooling

[Sean]

hewitt_tech wrote:
The one place I've seen a fair bit of information on liquid cooling is a 
magazine called "Maximum PC". They've had lot's of how-to articles and 
regularly compare the offerings from the vendors who make the kits.


-Alex



Thanks Alex.

I actually figured there would have been a few people here who would be 
using liquid cooling, but no responses.


Sean

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Re: Liquid Cooling

[hewitt_tech]

Try this link:

http://www.maximumpc.com/reviews/casessff/

-Alex


- Original Message - 
From: "Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Liquid Cooling


I was thinking of trying out liquid cooling and wanted to ask if anyone 
here has played with this type of setup?


Was it worth the effort, any tips, things to be aware of?

Thanks
Sean
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Re: Liquid Cooling

[hewitt_tech]

The one place I've seen a fair bit of information on liquid cooling is a 
magazine called "Maximum PC". They've had lot's of how-to articles and 
regularly compare the offerings from the vendors who make the kits.


-Alex

- Original Message - 
From: "Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Liquid Cooling


I was thinking of trying out liquid cooling and wanted to ask if anyone 
here has played with this type of setup?


Was it worth the effort, any tips, things to be aware of?

Thanks
Sean
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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 05:13:52PM -0400, Randy Edwards wrote:
>  > But, if you'll allow me to be selfish for a moment, one thing I like about
>  > the OLPC project is how much can be done with it in countries the the USA.
> 
>I agree.  Myself, I think the project's real potential is in "first" 
> and "second" world countries.
> 
>Frankly, as Ben stated, I think it's pretty naive to think that laptop 
> wouldn't be used primarily as a source of light in that Cambodian 
> household 

They are hoping it will be.
Thats one of the reasons its less likely to be sold for cash :)

-- or more likely just sold for cash.

This is certainly an issue, there is a lot of discussion on it in the
wikki.
> 
>But somewhere like Mexico or some "second world" country that laptop could 
> achieve its intended purpose.
> 
>And here in the US, the OLPC might -- hey, I said "might"! -- work to 
> establish an affordable, de facto EdTech standard and break schools out of 
> the marketing-driven/gee-whiz/gadget-minded mode that they've been in 
> forever.

No chance of that I'm afraid.  Public school IT is driven by the
need/desire/bureaucratic pressure to go for the most expensive choices
rather than the most effective..

> 

-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: OLPC - "eaten my homework"

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 04:22:01PM -0400, Ben Scott wrote:
> On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>   Books can rot or be damaged; so can equipment.  I doubt there's any
> >> real data as to which would be more durable in the target environment.
> >>  Lacking data, we can't say one way or the other.
> >
> > Given the number of times I've seen USB keys ...
> 
>   A USB key isn't anything like a laptop, even a rugged laptop with
> "no" moving parts (the hinge moves, and will be broken frequently, if
> my experience with laptops in "safe" office settings is any
> indicator).  That's not data, that's a bad comparison.
> 
> > The cost of producing a good textbook, even if the licensing/royalties
> > are zero, is very high.
> 
>   Source?  Numbers?  Hard data?
Family in the biz.  textbooks are a very different market that any other
printed matter.  They have stringently high costs because their
construction and content is different than anything else except coffee
table books., and yet their printing runs are tiny so the one-time costs
must be amortized over a much smaller number of volumes than regular
books.  That raises the per unit cost.

> 
>   While I've never printed a text book, per se, I have been near the
> production of other printed matter, and with sufficiently high
> volumes, costs go under a dollar, even with hundreds of pages.  Of
> course, I would expect a durable text book to cost more.  But even if
> it costs *ten times* as much, we're talking $10.

   Source?  Numbers?  Hard data?  :-)

> 
> > The virtual storage capability of the OLPC is, in some ways, nearly
> > infinite.
> 
>   And, in most ways, 500 megabytes.  The mesh network is a nice
> concept, but I don't really see it spanning the continent of Africa
> any time soon.  If it manages to sustain a working network in local
> communities, I think one can call that a huge success.

http://www.green-wifi.org/
Why Green WiFi? A number of non profit entities focus on addressing the
digital divide by providing internet access to developing areas. Green
WiFi addresses one of the biggest barriers to success: the lack of
reliable electricity in developing areas required to power the network.
Green WiFi has developed a low cost, solar-powered, standardized WiFi
access solution that runs out-of-the-box with no systems integration or
power requirements. All that is required is a single source of broadband
access. Green WiFi nodes can then be deployed on rooftops to form a
self-healing network that hops the source signal over a virtual
802.11b/g grid. Because these nodes require no fixed installation or
power tie-ins, these nodes can form an unplanned, mobile grid that can
grow or be relocated as needed. Green WiFi aims to compliment and extend
the power and promise of initiatives such as the UN/MIT One Laptop Per
Child (OLPC) project, Intel's World Ahead Program and other NGO efforts
dedicated to providing affordable computing capabilities to developing
areas by providing critical last mile access; last mile internet access
with nothing more than a single broadband internet connection, rooftops
and the sun.



> 
>   I say this mostly as a reality check; as I said, the cost of the
> electronic storage alone is likely to be insignificant.
> 
> > I'd say that the break even number could possibly be a lot lower than
> > 100 books.
> 
>   No offense, but that seems like pure speculation to me.  It could
> possibly be lower than 100 books if books are really really expensive
> and laptops are really really cheap and all the good things happen for
> the laptops and all the bad things happen for the books.  What if we
> look at it realistically?


100 text books, composed, printed, bound, distributed and delivered for about 1 
dollar
each.  No offense but that looks very unrealistic.  You stick to your
speculation and I'll stick with mine. :-)


> 
> >>   Whether or not the 100 texts (printed or electronic) will actually
> >> make it to the people, or actually be used if they do make it, is
> >> another question.
> >
> > Yes, also we have no of knowing how much benefit people will get from
> > software that helps teach reading, math etc, or better access to other
> > knowledge and how many "book equivalents" that functionality is worth.
> 
>   There is lots of data available on CBT.  (How much of that data is
> unbiased (and not produced by those pushing CBTs), I don't know.)  My
> above comment was directed more at political issues and other
> unexpected problems.  For example, many people starve not because
> there is no food, but because various groups and factors prevent the
> food from being evenly distributed.  Or maybe the laptops just end up
> being used as light sources.  ;-)

Worlds most expensive Lamp!  :)


-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Randy Edwards]

 > But, if you'll allow me to be selfish for a moment, one thing I like about
 > the OLPC project is how much can be done with it in countries the the USA.

   I agree.  Myself, I think the project's real potential is in "first" 
and "second" world countries.

   Frankly, as Ben stated, I think it's pretty naive to think that laptop 
wouldn't be used primarily as a source of light in that Cambodian 
household -- or more likely just sold for cash.

   But somewhere like Mexico or some "second world" country that laptop could 
achieve its intended purpose.

   And here in the US, the OLPC might -- hey, I said "might"! -- work to 
establish an affordable, de facto EdTech standard and break schools out of 
the marketing-driven/gee-whiz/gadget-minded mode that they've been in 
forever.

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
"Any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretaps, it 
requires a wiretap, requires a court order. Nothing has changed by the 
way." -- US President George Bush lying to the American people, April 20, 
2004 in Buffalo, NY. Bush now admits that he was spying on countless 
Americans at that time without warrant and in violation of US law.
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Re: OLPC - "eaten my homework"

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  Books can rot or be damaged; so can equipment.  I doubt there's any
real data as to which would be more durable in the target environment.
 Lacking data, we can't say one way or the other.


Given the number of times I've seen USB keys ...


 A USB key isn't anything like a laptop, even a rugged laptop with
"no" moving parts (the hinge moves, and will be broken frequently, if
my experience with laptops in "safe" office settings is any
indicator).  That's not data, that's a bad comparison.


The cost of producing a good textbook, even if the licensing/royalties
are zero, is very high.


 Source?  Numbers?  Hard data?

 While I've never printed a text book, per se, I have been near the
production of other printed matter, and with sufficiently high
volumes, costs go under a dollar, even with hundreds of pages.  Of
course, I would expect a durable text book to cost more.  But even if
it costs *ten times* as much, we're talking $10.


The virtual storage capability of the OLPC is, in some ways, nearly
infinite.


 And, in most ways, 500 megabytes.  The mesh network is a nice
concept, but I don't really see it spanning the continent of Africa
any time soon.  If it manages to sustain a working network in local
communities, I think one can call that a huge success.

 I say this mostly as a reality check; as I said, the cost of the
electronic storage alone is likely to be insignificant.


I'd say that the break even number could possibly be a lot lower than
100 books.


 No offense, but that seems like pure speculation to me.  It could
possibly be lower than 100 books if books are really really expensive
and laptops are really really cheap and all the good things happen for
the laptops and all the bad things happen for the books.  What if we
look at it realistically?


  Whether or not the 100 texts (printed or electronic) will actually
make it to the people, or actually be used if they do make it, is
another question.


Yes, also we have no of knowing how much benefit people will get from
software that helps teach reading, math etc, or better access to other
knowledge and how many "book equivalents" that functionality is worth.


 There is lots of data available on CBT.  (How much of that data is
unbiased (and not produced by those pushing CBTs), I don't know.)  My
above comment was directed more at political issues and other
unexpected problems.  For example, many people starve not because
there is no food, but because various groups and factors prevent the
food from being evenly distributed.  Or maybe the laptops just end up
being used as light sources.  ;-)

-- Ben
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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 02:35:20PM -0400, Randy Edwards wrote:
>This fundamentally is an area of economics.  We've seen that all vibrant 
> economies since WWII have used exports to generate wealth.  Japan, Germany, 
> the Asian tigers, Chile, China, etc. have all used exports to grow while 
> developing their domestic markets and keeping their foreign trade balanced 
> or, typically, in large surpluses.
> 
>A Cambodian publishing industry isn't a cost per se -- it's the 
> development 
> of a domestic industry; it means domestic jobs for Cambodians in Cambodia.  
> Resigning yourself to importing a critical component of your educational 
> system (the laptops) from overseas will add to the country's trade deficit 
> and will make the country poorer.  It simply has to be so unless there are 
> other offsetting exports.


Hi Randy - My argument wasn't against the costs (amortized or whatever)
of developing a Cambodian printing industry. They were purely about the
actual costs of getting the books printed. No matter where its done its
a costly proposition.  The argument is that physical books are much more
expensive and fragile and less sharable and less reproducible than a
bits-book.

>There is a theme in the OLPC writings that the new, educated students "get 
> the education for real jobs that take them out of poverty completely." 
>   A wonderful thought, but where 
> do those "real jobs" come from?  There is no direct connection other than a 
> theory.  In reality, those "real jobs" are in Taiwan or China where the 
> laptops are being made.

Yes, and the real jobs in China and Taiwan are being done be people
with an education.  Both China and India are cranking out Engineers at
rates much higher than the US right now.  Both of their economies are
growing madly.  Yes education is clearly only one factor.  Bureaucratic
friction and barriers to starting a business are other strong factors.

No matter how an economy gets started , it needs people with skills to
populate it and generate the horsepower to move it along.

>Don't get me wrong, I think the laptops are just what are needed in 
> education (in more developed countries) and it's clear that a lot of 
> ingenious thought have gone into them.
> 
>And there is a correlation between education and wealth/jobs.  But a 
> correlation is not a cause and effect link and meanwhile you're asking poor 
> countries to send their money to Taiwan.  Based on how other countries have 
> successfully developed their own economies and generated nat'l wealth, I'd be 
> very, very leery of that approach.

I agree- this is only one factor in getting an economy working.  But, if
you'll allow me to be selfish for a moment, one thing I like about the
OLPC project is how much can be done with it in countries the the USA.

(just have to make sure that the units don't allow top-posting in email,
or HTML email... :-) )

> 
>  Regards,
>  .
>  Randy
> 
> -- 
> "You know, when I was growing up, or other Baby Boomers here were growing up, 
> we felt safe because we had these vast oceans that could protect us from 
> harm's way." -- George Bush, Jan. 11, 2006. Was Bush lying again or simply 
> displaying that in his youth he had never heard of nuclear missiles or 
> airplanes that drop bombs? 
> 
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> 

-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: Why *I* want one of these "$100" Laptops...

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 02:59:38PM -0400, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 May 2006 2:38 pm, Ben Scott wrote:
> >   Not even that, necessarily.  If a whole bunch of people buy these
> > $100 laptops for $200 in the US, it would help fund the operation for
> > those who truly cannot afford it.
> >
> That is the same rationale the drug companies use on their drugs that are 
> sold overseas and in Canada.

Ouch!


-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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OLPC - "eaten my homework"

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 02:34:56PM -0400, Ben Scott wrote:
> On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Question: Does Cambodia really need to be spending its money on cheap 
> >> but
> >> durable laptops imported from Taiwan?
> >
> > Its a heck of lot cheaper to make copies of bits than it is to make
> > copies of paper.
> 
>   Neither of the above appear to be correct in their stated assumptions.
> 
>   Most of the cost of a text book (or any book, for that matter) is
> outside the cost of materials and actual printing process.  Royalties,
> promotions, overhead, etc., is where the big cost comes from.  I
> believe I saw a claim that these texts would be "free" in this area.
> Assuming you can get sufficient volume, cost per copy should be a few
> dollars, or even less.

In the even less category we have "zero" from books available in the
Gutenberg project.  There is also work being done on creating free
curriculum texts that would be completely free of licensing costs.

>   Books can rot or be damaged; so can equipment.  I doubt there's any
> real data as to which would be more durable in the target environment.
>  Lacking data, we can't say one way or the other.

Given the number of times I've seen USB keys make it all the way through
a full wash and dry cycle, which a book can't do even once, I'd say we
can rely heavily on the fact that atmospheric heat and humidity will be
far more corrosive and damaging to paper than plastic and silicon.


>   The cost per copy for printed books is fixed for a given print run,
> but will always be non-zero.

The cost of producing a good textbook, even if the licensing/royalties
are zero, is very high.  The paper is a costly, high gloss, heavy weight
and acid-free. The other components (ink, bindings, labor) must be high quality 
as well, otherwise the book will simply fall to pieces within a short
period of time, especially if it is used in hot, humid environments.


>   The cost per copy for an "e-book" is also non-zero.  If nothing
> else, it will consume some of that flash storage, and the power to do
> the copy.  I expect this can be considered insignificant, though.

The virtual storage capability of the OLPC is, in some ways, nearly
infinite.  Each user can have access to their locally stored books, the
books stored on their fellow mesh-members Units, and anything they can
reach across the mesh from the Internet.  The user doesn't have to keep
every book they ever want to use on their laptop.  Since bits travel
faster than physical media, not having the book nearby is no longer a
barrier to having the contents of that book.


>   More significant is the cost of the equipment (the "laptop").  If
> you only have one book, that means your book cost whatever the laptop
> cost -- which is about $130, I guess.  That's an expensive textbook,
> even by US college standards.  It isn't until you start having a few
> dozen texts on a single laptop that you start to see returns.  Once
> you're past 100 or so texts, you should be into the "the laptop method
> is actually cheaper" range.

I'd say that the break even number could possibly be a lot lower than
100 books.  Given the cost of the raw materials and the printing process
itself, including color photo plates,  I think it might be more in the
range of 5 - 10 books.  Perhaps even less

> 
>   Whether or not the 100 texts (printed or electronic) will actually
> make it to the people, or actually be used if they do make it, is
> another question.

Yes, also we have no of knowing how much benefit people will get from
software that helps teach reading, math etc, or better access to other
knowledge and how many "book equivalents" that functionality is worth.

Not to mention the possibility of two way communication with
teachers/tutors in very remote locations.

"Hello, I am Sudar Mahmib. I am the son of the Nigerian minister of
Finance. I am writing to you because I am desperately in need of help.
Rebel insurgents have eaten my homework."

;-)


-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: Why *I* want one of these "$100" Laptops...

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 2:38 pm, Ben Scott wrote:

 If a whole bunch of people buy these
$100 laptops for $200 in the US, it would help fund the operation for
those who truly cannot afford it.


That is the same rationale the drug companies use on their drugs that are
sold overseas and in Canada.


 It's also the rationale used for many other things.  So what?

 DISCLAIMER: Now I'm just stirring the pot.  ;-)

-- Ben
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Re: Why *I* want one of these "$100" Laptops...

[Jerry Feldman]

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 2:38 pm, Ben Scott wrote:
> On 5/30/06, Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Just being a bit selfish here ...
>
>   Not even that, necessarily.  If a whole bunch of people buy these
> $100 laptops for $200 in the US, it would help fund the operation for
> those who truly cannot afford it.
>
That is the same rationale the drug companies use on their drugs that are 
sold overseas and in Canada.

-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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Re: Why *I* want one of these "$100" Laptops...

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Just being a bit selfish here ...


 Not even that, necessarily.  If a whole bunch of people buy these
$100 laptops for $200 in the US, it would help fund the operation for
those who truly cannot afford it.

 DISCLAIMER: This is not a vote in favor of the operation.

 DISCLAIMER: The preceding disclaimer is not a vote against the operation.

-- Ben
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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Randy Edwards]

 > >Or would the country's money be better spent buying the cheapest
 > > books possible (which could be produced in-country) and the difference
 > > invested in an electrical infrastructure?
 > Since the difference would be zero dollars (it would actually cost MORE
 > to provide the same texts in hardcopy) it would not help with building
 > electrical infrastructure at all.

   This fundamentally is an area of economics.  We've seen that all vibrant 
economies since WWII have used exports to generate wealth.  Japan, Germany, 
the Asian tigers, Chile, China, etc. have all used exports to grow while 
developing their domestic markets and keeping their foreign trade balanced 
or, typically, in large surpluses.

   A Cambodian publishing industry isn't a cost per se -- it's the development 
of a domestic industry; it means domestic jobs for Cambodians in Cambodia.  
Resigning yourself to importing a critical component of your educational 
system (the laptops) from overseas will add to the country's trade deficit 
and will make the country poorer.  It simply has to be so unless there are 
other offsetting exports.

   There is a theme in the OLPC writings that the new, educated students "get 
the education for real jobs that take them out of poverty completely." 
  A wonderful thought, but where 
do those "real jobs" come from?  There is no direct connection other than a 
theory.  In reality, those "real jobs" are in Taiwan or China where the 
laptops are being made.

   Don't get me wrong, I think the laptops are just what are needed in 
education (in more developed countries) and it's clear that a lot of 
ingenious thought have gone into them.

   And there is a correlation between education and wealth/jobs.  But a 
correlation is not a cause and effect link and meanwhile you're asking poor 
countries to send their money to Taiwan.  Based on how other countries have 
successfully developed their own economies and generated nat'l wealth, I'd be 
very, very leery of that approach.

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
"You know, when I was growing up, or other Baby Boomers here were growing up, 
we felt safe because we had these vast oceans that could protect us from 
harm's way." -- George Bush, Jan. 11, 2006. Was Bush lying again or simply 
displaying that in his youth he had never heard of nuclear missiles or 
airplanes that drop bombs? 

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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Ben Scott]

On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

   Question: Does Cambodia really need to be spending its money on cheap but
durable laptops imported from Taiwan?


Its a heck of lot cheaper to make copies of bits than it is to make
copies of paper.


 Neither of the above appear to be correct in their stated assumptions.

 Most of the cost of a text book (or any book, for that matter) is
outside the cost of materials and actual printing process.  Royalties,
promotions, overhead, etc., is where the big cost comes from.  I
believe I saw a claim that these texts would be "free" in this area.
Assuming you can get sufficient volume, cost per copy should be a few
dollars, or even less.

 Books can rot or be damaged; so can equipment.  I doubt there's any
real data as to which would be more durable in the target environment.
Lacking data, we can't say one way or the other.

 The cost per copy for printed books is fixed for a given print run,
but will always be non-zero.

 The cost per copy for an "e-book" is also non-zero.  If nothing
else, it will consume some of that flash storage, and the power to do
the copy.  I expect this can be considered insignificant, though.

 More significant is the cost of the equipment (the "laptop").  If
you only have one book, that means your book cost whatever the laptop
cost -- which is about $130, I guess.  That's an expensive textbook,
even by US college standards.  It isn't until you start having a few
dozen texts on a single laptop that you start to see returns.  Once
you're past 100 or so texts, you should be into the "the laptop method
is actually cheaper" range.

 Whether or not the 100 texts (printed or electronic) will actually
make it to the people, or actually be used if they do make it, is
another question.

-- Ben
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Why *I* want one of these "$100" Laptops...

[Brian Chabot]

Well, enough people have posted about the political ramifications and
what the project is about.  Now I'd like to say why *I* want one.

1. It's cheap.  Even at $300. 
2. 400MHz/128MB/512MB is plenty for what I need a laptop to do.
3. It's got WiFi built in with mesh capabilities - Under Linux.  No more
struggling with Intel's crappy Linux "support" for their WiFi chipsets.
4. Hand Crank.  Why do I like this?  Because I do a lot of camping and
I'm often in places where I can't plug in.  This is *THE* selling point
to me.  It means I can go out in the mountains for *weeks* and still
have a working laptop to work on.  Without praying for sunny days so a
solar charger works or buying a recharging backpack thingie.  It's all
in there.
5. "Sunlight Readable" display. - yet configurable for massive power
savings with monochrome.
6. EBook mode. - Not only the physical config but the low power mode of it.
7. Spill resistant keyboard - How hard is it for laptop manufacturers to
make their systems a bit better resistant to people knocking soda cans
or coffee cups over on to a laptop? 
8.  No rotating media - Makes this thing impact resistant.
9. Seals for better water and dust resistance when closed.
10. USB External storage available - (Doesn't matter which laptop you
are using, your files are on the usb dongle.)

Just being a bit selfish here, but these are things hardware
manufacturers might want to think about.


Brian
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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 12:41:34PM -0400, Randy Edwards wrote:
>In reading the posted FAQ I was amazed at this line:
> 
>  > In one Cambodian village where we have been working, there is no
>  > electricity, thus the laptop is, among other things, the brightest light
>  > source in the home. 

So - not only can you give more books to the kids by putting them on the
laptop, you provide the light to read it by and - the "books" cannot be 
by heat, moisture, bugs, mold, fungus, small children or dogs.  :-)

>Question: Does Cambodia really need to be spending its money on cheap but 
> durable laptops imported from Taiwan?

Its a heck of lot cheaper to make copies of bits than it is to make
copies of paper.

>Or would the country's money be better spent buying the cheapest books 
> possible (which could be produced in-country) and the difference invested in 
> an electrical infrastructure?

Since the difference would be zero dollars (it would actually cost MORE
to provide the same texts in hardcopy) it would not help with building
electrical infrastructure at all.


> 
>  Regards,
>  .
>  Randy
> 
> -- 
> Fast fact: If the U.S. had an infant mortality rate as good as Cuba's, we 
> would save an additional 2,212 American babies a year. Cuba is one of 41 
> countries that have better infant mortality rates than the U.S.
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> 

-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Randy Edwards]

   An interesting thread.  My background is in education and educational 
technology.  In general I'm supportive of educational technology but am 
experienced enough and enough of a realist to have seen too much EdTech hype 
and countless dollars wasted.

   In reading the posted FAQ I was amazed at this line:

 > In one Cambodian village where we have been working, there is no
 > electricity, thus the laptop is, among other things, the brightest light
 > source in the home. 

   Question: Does Cambodia really need to be spending its money on cheap but 
durable laptops imported from Taiwan?

   Or would the country's money be better spent buying the cheapest books 
possible (which could be produced in-country) and the difference invested in 
an electrical infrastructure?

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
Fast fact: If the U.S. had an infant mortality rate as good as Cuba's, we 
would save an additional 2,212 American babies a year. Cuba is one of 41 
countries that have better infant mortality rates than the U.S.
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$100 Laptop MYTHS De-Mythtefied

[Jeff Kinz]

Great reading for people who think laptops are too expensive or will
break or will need electricity

http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/OLPC_myths

-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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OLPC Hardware specs:

[Jeff Kinz]

From: 
http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/Hardware_specification

 First Generation System

Physical dimensions:

* Dimensions: 193mm × 229mm × 64mm (as of 3/27/06—subject to
change)
* Weight: Less than 1.5 KG (target only—subject to change)
* Configuration: Convertible laptop with pivoting, reversible
display; dirt- and moisture-resistant system enclosure 

Core electronics:

* CPU: AMD Geode [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* CPU clock speed: 400 Mhz
* Compatibility: X86/X87-compatible
* Chipset: AMD CS5536 South Bridge
* Graphics controller: Integrated with Geode CPU; unified memory
architecture
* Embedded controller: Based on ENE 3920
* DRAM memory: 128MB dynamic RAM
* Data rate: Dual – DDR266 – 133 Mhz
* BIOS: 512KB SPI-interface flash ROM; LinuxBIOS open-source BIOS
* Mass storage: 512MB SLC NAND flash
* Drives: No rotating media 

Display:

* Liquid-crystal display: 7.5” Dual-mode TFT display
* Viewing area: 151.6 mm × 113.4 mm
* Resolution: 1200 (H) × 900 (V) resolution (200 dpi)
* Mono display: High-resolution, reflective monochrome mode
* Color display: Standard-resolution, quincunx-sampled, transmissive
color mode
* Special "DCON" chip, that enables deswizzling and anti-aliasing in
color mode, while enabling the display to remain live with the processor
suspended. Since we will always be running the frame buffer at 1200x900
resolution, the color resolution is lower, but exactly how this works
out in effective resolution is complex. Mary Lou Jepsen is planning a
document to explain the effective resolution, which is higher than if we
simply reduced the size of the frame buffer and used the red, green and
blue channels. 

Integrated peripherals:

* Keyboard: 80 keys, 1.2mm stroke; sealed rubber-membrane key-switch
assembly
* Cursor-control keys: Dual five-key cursor-control pads; four
directional keys plus Enter
* Touchpad: Dual capacitance/resistive touchpad; supports
written-input mode; vendor to be selected June 10
* Audio: Analog Devices AD1888, AC97-compatible audio codec; stereo,
with dual internal speakers; monophonic, with internal microphone
* Wireless: Marvell 83W8388, 802.11b/g compatible; dual adjustable,
rotating coaxial antennas; supports diversity reception
* Status indicators: Power, battery, WiFi; visible lid open or
closed 

External connectors:

* Power: 2-pin DC-input, 10 to 25 V, -23 to -10 V
* Line output: Standard 3.5mm 3-pin switched stereo audio jack
* Microphone: Standard 3.5mm 2-pin switched mono microphone jack;
selectable sensor-input mode
* Expansion: 3 Type-A USB-2.0 connectors
* Maximum power: 500 mA (total) 

Battery:

* Pack type: 5 Cells, 6V series configuration
* Fully-enclosed “hard” case; user removable
* Capacity: 22.8 Watt-hours
* Cell type: NiMH
* Pack protection: Integrated pack-type identification
* Integrated thermal sensor
* Integrated polyfuse current limiter
* Cycle life: Minimum 2,000 charge/discharge cycles (to 50% capacity
of new, IIRC). 

BIOS/loader:

* LinuxBIOS is our intended BIOS for production units. 

Environmental specifications:

* Temperature: somewhere in between typical laptop requirements and
Mil spec; exact values have not been settled
* Humidity: Similar attitude to temperature. When closed, the unit
should seal well enough that children walking to and from school need
not fear rainstorms or dust.
* Maximum altitude: -15m to 3048m (14.7 to 10.1 psia) (operating),
-15m to 12192m (14.7 to 4.4 psia) (non-operating
* Shock 125g, 2ms, half-sine (operating) 200g, 2ms, half-sine
(non-operating)
* Random vibration: 0.75g zero-to-peak, 10Hz to 500Hz, 0.25 oct/min
sweep rate (operating); 1.5g zero-to-peak, 10Hz to 500Hz, 0.5 oct/min
sweep rate (nonoperating)
* 2mm plastic walls (1.3mm is typical for most systems). 

Regulatory requirements:

* The usual US and EU EMI/EMC requirements will be met.
* The laptop and all OLPC-supplied accessories will be fully UL and
is RoHS compliant. 
-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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OLPC Special Design features:

[Jeff Kinz]

From: 
http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/Hardware_specification


 What makes this system unique (relative to other systems called
"laptops")?

The machine is designed for young children, primarily ages 6-12. A large
fraction of such children are in parts of the developing world where
electricity is not available at home, or often even at school, so for
many children, a low power consumption, potentially human powered
computer is a necessity, not a convenience. Teaching may not even be
inside, and certainly when children are at home, they often will not be
inside where conventional LCD screens are usable. Children usually walk
to and from school every day; weather is unpredictable, rain, dirt and
dust are commonplace. And cost is a major consideration, if we are to
bring computers and their great power to help children learn to children
everywhere.

The design reflects these realities, and the work of our design team,
which includes OLPC staff, Quanta Computer, the Fuse Project, Design
Continuum, members of the MIT Media Labs and other colleagues and
friends. It also reflects a great focus on what can and should be done
to help bring the children the best possible learning tool, and reflects
decades of field experience of children using computers in the
developing world. Our thanks to them all.

* It is sized for a child, who, due to their size, will be closer to
the screen than an adult with a conventional laptop. The system is much
lighter than a conventional machine, (somewhere less than 1.5KG), and
its industrial design is quite different than a commercial
"black/grey/white" laptop.
* Friendly, colorful design; Visually distinctive: it’s for
kids! Immediately recognizable as a "kid's machine".
* Safety First: Soft, rounded edges.
* It has a rugged handle for carrying easily, sized for chidren.
This reflects the needs of children walking to and from school or other
activities.
* "Transformer" screen hinge: E-Book Mode for convenient reading and
a conventional laptop mode. It folds over into a "ebook", about the size
of a conventional book, with buttons exposed for controlling viewer
applications (or for use with games).
* The screen can be "on" while the CPU and most of the motherboard
is suspended and powered down, while the screen is read or the machine
otherwise idle, allowing for major power savings in most common usage
modes, such as reading a book.
* The screen refresh rate can be varied. When applications are not
changing the screen, we can reduce the refresh rate of the LCD to
conserve power.
* Wireless mesh: Child-child sharing! OLPC Laptops are full-time
wireless routers. Mesh networking reduces the need for dedicated
infrastructure (e.g. access points and/or cabling), and extends greatly
the areas in which machines may be connected to each other and/or to the
internet.
* The wireless antennae are diversity antennae, and rotate upward
using a rugged dual moulded nylon plastic design. When used rotated
above the LCD, the antennae work significantly better than conventional
built in antennae in existing systems or in Cardbus cards. This
significantly increases the area each machine can cover in the mesh, and
generally increases network performance. When closed, the antennae cover
the audio and USB connectors to help keep dirt out of the connectors (as
mentioned above, the case carefully moulds around the connectors, both
to increase ruggedness and to help keep dirt and water out). Great care
has been taken in the RF design, and early measurements show a lower
noise level than seen by Marvell on any other design of theirs. We
expect that the 802.11 networking in this system will be substantially
better than a conventional system.
* The Marvell wireless chip can forward packets in the mesh network,
with the CPU suspended, and the CPU may resume if explicitly addressed.
Since the mesh network is so important, we want laptops to be able to
participate in the mesh to keep forwarding packets when need be as
efficiently as possible, and by suspending the processor we can increase
the running time of the wireless a factor of 3-4. If this were not
possible, children might need to disable wireless to preserve battery
charge; by doing so, the mesh would be much less effective.
* The machine is rugged. The most common failures of laptops are
disk drives, fans, florescent back lights, power connectors, other
connectors, and contamination of keyboards. Our machine uses flash,
eliminating a disk, has no need for a fan, uses a rugged LED backlight
rather than a florescent light, and uses a sealed rubber keyboard. It
uses 2mm thick plastic, where a typical system might use 1.3mm. External
connectors are carefully molded into the plastic for greater strength.
The power connector is carefully chosen to be much more durable than
usual, and again, the case is moulded carefully around it for greater
strength. There are extremely few connectors in the machine, primarily
jus

OLPC ($100 "laptop") FAQ

[Jeff Kinz]

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of One Laptop per Child, answers questions
on the initiative.

What is the $100 Laptop, really?
The proposed $100 machine will be a Linux-based, with a dual-mode
display- both a full-color, transmissive DVD mode, and a second
display option that is black and white reflective and sunlight-readable
at 3X the resolution. The laptop will have a 500MHz processor and
128MB of DRAM, with 500MB of Flash memory; it will not have a hard disk,
but it will have four USB ports. The laptops will have wireless
broadband that, among other things, allows them to work as a mesh
network; each laptop will be able to talk to its nearest neighbors,
creating an ad hoc, local area network. The laptops will use innovative
power (including wind-up) and will be able to do most everything except
store huge amounts of data.

Why do children in developing nations need laptops?
Laptops are both a window and a tool: a window into the world and a tool
with which to think. They are a wonderful way for all children to learn
learning through independent interaction and exploration.

Why not a desktop computer, or -even better- a recycled desktop
machine?
Desktops are cheaper, but mobility is important, especially with regard
to taking the computer home at night. Kids in the developing world need
the newest technology, especially really rugged hardware and innovative
software. Recent work with schools in Maine has shown the huge value of
using a laptop across all of one's studies, as well as for play.
Bringing the laptop home engages the family. In one Cambodian village
where we have been working, there is no electricity, thus the laptop is,
among other things, the brightest light source in the home.

Finally, regarding recycled machines: if we estimate 100 million
available used desktops, and each one requires only one hour of human
attention to refurbish, reload, and handle, that is forty-five thousand
work years. Thus, while we definitely encourage the recycling of used
computers, it is not the solution for One Laptop per Child.

How is it possible to get the cost so low?
* First, by dramatically lowering the cost of the display. The
first-generation machine will have a novel, dual-mode display that
represents improvements to the LCD displays commonly found in
inexpensive DVD players. These displays can be used in high-resolution
black and white in bright sunlight- all at a cost of approximately
$35.

* Second, we will get the fat out of the systems. Today's laptops have
become obese. Two-thirds of their software is used to manage the other
third, which mostly does the same functions nine different ways.

* Third, we will market the laptops in very large numbers (millions),
directly to ministries of education, which can distribute them like
textbooks.

Why is it important for each child to have a computer? What's wrong with
community-access centers?
One does not think of community pencils- kids have their own. They
are tools to think with, sufficiently inexpensive to be used for work
and play, drawing, writing, and mathematics. A computer can be the same,
but far more powerful. Furthermore, there are many reasons it is
important for a child to own something-like a football, doll, or
book- not the least of which being that these belongings will be
well-maintained through love and care.

What about connectivity? Aren't telecommunications services expensive in
the developing world?
When these machines pop out of the box, they will make a mesh network of
their own, peer-to-peer. This is something initially developed at MIT
and the Media Lab. We are also exploring ways to connect them to the
backbone of the Internet at very low cost.

What can a $1000 laptop do that the $100 version can't?
Not much. The plan is for the $100 Laptop to do almost everything. What
it will not do is store a massive amount of data.

How will these be marketed?
The laptops will be sold to governments and issued to children by
schools on a basis of one laptop per child. Initial discussions have
been held with China, India, Brazil, Argentina, Egypt, Nigeria, and
Thailand. An additional, modest allocation of machines will be used to
seed developer communities in a number of other countries. A commercial
version of the machine will be explored in parallel.

When do you anticipate these laptops reaching the market? What do you
see as the biggest hurdles?
Our preliminary schedule is to have units ready for shipment by the end
of 2006 or early 2007. Manufacturing will begin when 5 to 10 million
machines have been ordered and paid for in advance.

The biggest hurdle will be manufacturing 100 million of anything. This
is not just a supply-chain problem, but also a design problem. The scale
is daunting, but I find myself amazed at what some companies are
proposing to us. It feels as though at least half the problems are being
solved by mere resolve.

Who is the original design manufacturer (ODM) of the $100 laptop?
Quant

Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 09:10:53AM -0400, Michael Costolo wrote:
> On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Michael Costolo wrote:
> > > I've never understood why giving laptops to kids who can't read or add
> > > would make them better at reading or math.
> >
> > Please go see "reader Rabbit" or "Math Blaster" in action with kids
> > who are in Kindergarten through fourth grade.  Then it will be clear to
> > you.
> 
> I never implied that kids couldn't use them to learn. But generations

Michael, I never said that you implied that.  You said, and I quote from
above 
>>>I've never understood why giving laptops to kids who can't read or add
>>>would make them better at reading or math.

And I said: 
>>Please go see "reader Rabbit" or "Math Blaster" in action with kids
>>who are in Kindergarten through fourth grade.  Then it will be clear to
>>you.

For many people, children and adults, the immediate interaction and
clever presentation of both concepts and skill drills available on a
computer make the task of learning new things faster and easier.

Why?  One of the major ingredients of excellent learning software 
has always been the fun factor.  The two examples which I listed
for you above both have excellent "fun factor".

>  of us learned rather well with books.  Books that are relatively
> inexpensive, don't require power, or break when you drop them.  Math
> in particular hasn't really changed (nor has reading), particularly at
> the grade school level, so (math, reading) books remain essentially up
> to date regardless of how long you have them.

Books are great things, I have a few thousand of them here in my house.
Unfortunately books are not expandable, books cannot interact, books
cannot teach except in the most static fashion by presentation of
information.  Yes generations of people have learned very well with
books.  And before those generations many more generations learned very
well with parchment, or papyrus, or clay.  Which we clearly should never
have moved away from the first place.  After all what's the difference
between a chunk of clay, and a nice lightweight hardbound edition of
Mooney's reading primer?

Right off the bat the OLPC unit has an advantage over books which is
insurmountable. it can carry many books simultaneously, and can present
information dynamically and interactively.  As for your claim that books
are inexpensive, for the cost of three good technology books I can
purchase one OLPC unit.  And I'm willing to bet you that O'Reilly
publishing will let you insert a number of their technology books into
the OLPC units for free as part of their contribution to the project.
However their books are probably not appropriate for the children that
the project is targeted at.

One aspect of the OLPC project that you are likely unaware of the
curriculum/texts efforts which is trying to include educational books
with the OLPC units - for ZERO cost.

As for your claim that these things will drop when you break them,
please go and read more about the OLPC units.  These are not the same
type of thing that you go down to Staples and buy off-the-shelf.  It
pains me to see this misconception continuously regurgitated. These units
are designed from scratch for use by "children".  If a ruggedized case
is not the first design requirement then everyone in the project has
gone completely mental.

> 
> Laptops in particular are expensive, require power, break (often
> catastrophically) when you drop them, and no one wants last year's
> slow, bulky models.  How uncool...
$100 is expensive?  Interesting.
Last years model?  nope - there is only one model.
break?  Nope, not these.

> 
> And apparently the much less expensive desktops just won't work here?

Another misconception - Desktops would be more expensive than the OLPC
units. desktop= $400 OLPC = $100 (maybe $130 initially).

> If these are the hoops we have to jump through to get kids to learn it
> is a rather sad commentary on the state of our society.  And our
> ability/willingness to parent.

Exactly what hoops are you referring to here Mike?  Thats sounds like a 
criticism, but it has no content in it, just a judgmental phrase.

These are not hoops we are jumping through to get kids to learn.  This
is a "hoop" we are jumping through to give more children the chance to
learn better, or in some cases, to have the chance to learn at all.

Most children in the underdeveloped regions of the world would love to
be able to go to school.  Many can't.  

Current education trends (in places where the public education
is actually working) are pushing kids farther and faster than they have
gone before. (sadly - this isn't true everywhere in the US, I wish it
were).   Your comment on parenting is on-target.  Educators have learned
that no matter what they do if the parents aren't re-enforcing learning
at home, the kids never do as well. The OLPC UNIT can help children
learn better by giving them 

Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Heather Brodeur]

David Ecklein wrote:

>Perhaps I am talking apples and oranges here, in an effort to introduce a
>note of skepticism.  Does anyone have more detailed specs on these Model-T
>laptops that must be cranked?
>  
>
http://laptop.org/

I haven't been following the project closely, but attended a
presentation about it 6-12 months ago that discussed some of the goals
and challenges of the project.  Some of the requirements (as listed at
that time) that caught my attention were no moving parts, and possibly a
sealed case, especially no fans to suck in dirt and dust.  From what
I've heard they bear very little resemblance to what most of us think of
when we hear "laptop."

- Heather
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Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Tom Buskey]

Before anyone submits another message, please read about the OLPC.  Most of the thread comments against it don't seem to have read about it.http://laptop.media.mit.edu/
http://www.laptop.org/Or JFGI using the term OLPC.On a similar note on the usefulness of PCs in the classroom, some interesting things have been done with Palm devices.  
For example, give every kid in the class a Palm.  One of 'em is "infected".  You go around infrared beaming everyone else and track infections.  Now you have to find the original.  It's a model illustrating infectous desiease that can't easily be done on paper.
Those Palms have 2-8MB ram, 160x160 bw to 320x320 color, removable CF/SD/MS storage, a 68000 or ARM chip, a serial port and infrared.The original Macintosh had 128k, 512x384 (?) bw graphics, 400k floppy, a 68000 chip and 2 serial ports.
The Apple //e had 128k, 140k floppies, 320x200 color (IIRC) and a 6502.  And a joystick port for button & A/D input.I originally learned word processing, spreadsheet and programming on an Apple ][+.  The Palm m130 I carry around has much more capability and can do all of that.  Newer Palms can network too.  Add a keyboard and it's *way* better for BASIC programming, spreadsheet and maybe word processing then the Apple ever was.

Re: Recycled computers

[Heather Brodeur]

Ted Roche wrote:

>
> At Hosstraders earlier this month, the sponsors had a trailer where 
> they accepted discards for a group that made money salvaging the 
> donations. Does anyone recall who that was?
>
NH Disabled Veterans

-Heather
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Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Jeff Kinz]

On Sat, May 27, 2006 at 10:27:43PM -0400, David Ecklein wrote:
> I don't understand this fixation on laptops.  These are commodities for the
> affluent, costing twice as much when new as desktops.  They have far less
> upgrade capability, the screens are delicate and hard to repair, the mouse
> and keyboard are compromises.  The cases are fragile and often have
> proprietary form factors and parts, inhibiting inexpensive repairs.  The
> sole asset of a laptop is portability, which many college students have
> found turns into a liability: they are one of the most stolen items on
> campus.


Hi David,

Your idea of what a laptop computers totally matches the current "image"
designed and promoted by the people marketing to modern American office
place right now.  It's a status toy that somewhat resembles the image
that Italian sports cars used to have in the '60s and '70s.  Expensive
high status toys which perform some functions marvelously well but spend
a great deal of time being repaired and paid for.

Fortunately there's more than one way to do it.  The laptop units being
designed by the one laptop per child unit are completely different in
every way from the properties that you described above.

It's just possible that the man who originally started MIT's media lab
might have some unique ideas about how to approach creating a portable,
rugged computing unit that consumes very little power.  I hope you take
the time to take a look at the one laptop per child wiki. Its very
enlightening.  The unit has unique ideas and of course, since there is
no profit margin that needs to be satisfied to build the unit the
acquisition cost is tremendously reduced.

There are currently thin client units available on the market that are
retailing for around $150.  These units, in some ways have larger more
powerful configurations than the OLPC units.  And, given modern
marketing costs and the necessary profit margins as well as the cost of
sales etc. yada yada I would be willing to bet you that the cost of
production for those thin client units is somewhere between 60 and $80,
or even less



> 
> IMHO, this laptop promotion is being done for reasons other than the benefit
> of school children, whether here or abroad.
> 
> I would rather see an effort mounted to refurbish the many usable desktops
> that are going to the dump every day.  The participation of high school
> computer and science clubs could be enlisted; there is more standardization
> with desktops than with laptops, and you don't need special tools or skills
> with the latter.  Since flat screens are trendy and recently relatively
> affordable, new CRT monitors are selling for a song, usable used ones are so
> plentiful the Salvation Army and Goodwill no longer accepts them.  I thought
> the rise of Linux would make recycling desktops an obvious project (an OS
> not as demanding as, say, XP), but now I am not so sure.  As my Filipina
> mother-in-law used to say, common sense is not so common.
> 
> Dave Ecklein
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Richard A Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:32 PM
> Subject: RE: One Laptop Per Child pledge
> 
> 
> >
> > I'd support this project if it were to get a laptop in every household in
> > the USA but third world I don't think so, let's start thinking about
> taking
> > care of our own first the rest of the world.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> > Richard A Sharpe
> > 8 Meadowview Lane
> > Merrimack, NH 03054
> > "Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you, not
> because
> > they are kind, but because you are."
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher
> > Schmidt
> > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:27 PM
> > To: Fred
> > Cc: gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> > Subject: Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge
> >
> > On Fri, May 26, 2006 at 10:01:52PM -0400, Fred wrote:
> > > Anyway, just to add my own $0.02, I don't see the $100 PC making much f
> a
> > > difference -- unless it can connect to the Internet. Otherwise the
> "third
> > > world" will be limited to whatever content and software their respective
> > > governments will allow to be installed on those PCs.
> >
> > Er. The machines are running Linux -- Fedora Core or some RedHat
> > variant? -- and the machines are designed to create ad-hoc wireless
> > networks.
> >
> > > Oh, and unless these PCs can be run with a hand crank or solar cells,
> > still
> > > pretty useless in many parts of the world. And with the typical power
> > > consumption of laptop CPUs, that's a lot of hand cranking. And I don't
> see
> >
> > > how you can keep the costs down to $100 if you have to include solar
> > cells.
> >
> > Hand cranks or other similar alternative power options have always been
> > the plan for the $100 OLPC laptops. The earlier marketing materials have
> > always included pictures including a hand crank. There's ongoing
> > disc

Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Jeff Kinz]

On Sat, May 27, 2006 at 04:32:04PM -0400, Richard A Sharpe wrote:
> 
> I'd support this project if it were to get a laptop in every household in
> the USA but third world I don't think so, let's start thinking about taking
> care of our own first the rest of the world.

Mitt Romney has already introduced a bill to distribute an OLPC to every
schoolchild in MA.  I guess you'd better start a letter writing campaign
in NH right away.  the OLPC project is willing to work with any agency
that wants to put the units in the hands of kids.



-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Jeff Kinz]

On Fri, May 26, 2006 at 10:01:52PM -0400, Fred wrote:
> Anyway, just to add my own $0.02, I don't see the $100 PC making much f a 
> difference -- unless it can connect to the Internet. Otherwise the "third 
> world" will be limited to whatever content and software their respective 
> governments will allow to be installed on those PCs.

The OLPC units have built in "wi-fi mesh" capability"  This only means
that the units can network with each-other on a local basis.  However
for longer distance internet connectivity this project:

http://www.green-wifi.org/

does exactly what you are looking for and is designed to work with the
OLPC units.  These routers come with their own Solar panel designed and
built for deployment to these "more rugged" environments


> 
> Oh, and unless these PCs can be run with a hand crank or solar cells, still 
> pretty useless in many parts of the world. And with the typical power 
> consumption of laptop CPUs, that's a lot of hand cranking. And I don't see 
> how you can keep the costs down to $100 if you have to include solar cells.

The original design called for a hand crank but it was determined that
it would stress the frame too much.  Current plans call for a foot
pedal to produce power.  None of the power plans require more than
periodic "power generation" effort. :-)

> 
> Methinks someone has a pipe dream. I can just see it now. All of these 
> villagers are given these PCs, which are dead after the first hour or two of 
> use. But hey, I'm sure they'll find novel uses for dead PCs.

Twenty years ago we had laptops that ran off double A batteries for
days, (and for some people, weeks) at a time.  I'm fairly certain we can
do better than "two hours".


Like the OLPC units those old laptops used low power display technology,
miserly CPU's and used software that was much smarter about what machine
resources it used and how it used them.  And one more interesting
parallel - neither those old laptops nor the current OLPC's used ANY
rotating storage.


-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Michael Costolo]

On 5/30/06, Jeff Kinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Michael Costolo wrote:
> I've never understood why giving laptops to kids who can't read or add
> would make them better at reading or math.

Please go see "reader Rabbit" or "Math Blaster" in action with kids
who are in Kindergarten through fourth grade.  Then it will be clear to
you.



Jeff,

I never implied that kids couldn't use them to learn. But generations
of us learned rather well with books.  Books that are relatively
inexpensive, don't require power, or break when you drop them.  Math
in particular hasn't really changed (nor has reading), particularly at
the grade school level, so (math, reading) books remain essentially up
to date regardless of how long you have them.

Laptops in particular are expensive, require power, break (often
catastrophically) when you drop them, and no one wants last year's
slow, bulky models.  How uncool...

And apparently the much less expensive desktops just won't work here?

If these are the hoops we have to jump through to get kids to learn it
is a rather sad commentary on the state of our society.  And our
ability/willingness to parent.

-Mike-
Father of a 2 and a 4 year old.

--
"The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or
television.  It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of
anxiety."
-Eric Sevareid, American News Commentator (1912 - 1992)
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Re: Recycled computers

[Dave Johnson]

Ted Roche writes:
> Branching the One Laptop thread...
> 
> On May 27, 2006, at 10:27 PM, David Ecklein wrote:
> 
> > I don't understand this fixation on laptops.  These are commodities  
> > for the
> > I would rather see an effort mounted to refurbish the many usable  
> > desktops
> > that are going to the dump every day.
> 
> LUG members have done this. A group of MonadLUG members lead by Tim  
> Lind worked on this for a while last year. Tim's apparently succeeded  
> in getting a couple refurbished machines into local libraries and  
> elder care facilities. However, there's a lot of resistance to these  
> contributions: concern over support, toxic waste disposal, security,  
> etc.
> 
> For recycling, there are some good options:
> 
> http://www.des.state.nh.us/swtas/recycle_electronics.htm
> http://www.des.state.nh.us/swtas/comp_recyclers.htm

Most electronics recycling companies already have re-use deals in
place for working components and will then go after the materials on
whatever is left over (broken or obsolete).

I brought a car-load of old stuff (some working some broken) to this
place about a year ago because they would take everything I had for
_FREE_ as long as I transported it to them (they charge for pickup).

http://www.recyclingelectronics.com/

They have a reasonable amount of info on their website about what they
will accept.

It was quite a drive (they are in Brockton, MA) but well worth it to
avoid the hassles and fees for CRTs and other electronics from my
local town or just about any other company I found.

-- 
Dave

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Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Jeff Kinz]

On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 09:04:14PM -0400, Paul Lussier wrote:
> If my kids didn't play with the physical ones, I'd have much less
> opportunity to play with that stuff myself :) And let me tell you,
> it's *FUN* to build big block towers with your kids and knock them
> down!

 [yes it is, and the older you get the bigger your blocks get too :-)]
 [Although we knock them down less often.  Kids need physical activities
 [to help their brains develop just as much as they need mental   ]
 [activity]
> 
> > Yep.  Getting computers to people in third world countries.
> 
> Right.  Benson, crazy though he is, was foolish enough to think we
> should take care of people in our country before helping other
> countries people who can't read and write.  That whole "Charity begins
> at home" thing is just so, well, un-PC :)

While the emphasis for the OLPC project is third world deployment, One
of the people Negroponte has had many discussion with is MA Governor
Mitt Romney.  Romney wants to deploy the OLPC systems to Public schools
in Massachusetts.  I assume this meets your criteria of taking of things
at home to some degree.  Should the rest of the governors in the US do
the same thing?  Sure.


http://www.fcw.com/article90958-09-29-05-Web


"
A laptop for every student

BY Dibya Sarkar
Published on Sept. 29, 2005

Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney wants every middle and high school
student in the state to get a laptop computer.

"



> -- 
> Seeya,
> Paul
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> 

-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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Re: One Laptop Per Child pledge

[Jeff Kinz]

On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Michael Costolo wrote:
> I've never understood why giving laptops to kids who can't read or add
> would make them better at reading or math.

Please go see "reader Rabbit" or "Math Blaster" in action with kids
who are in Kindergarten through fourth grade.  Then it will be clear to
you.  


-- 
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
Speech Recognition Technology was used to create this e-mail

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