Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Sun, 2004-02-08 at 22:22, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > With all due respect, there's been no follow-up on anything. Just > lobbing a request out to the list at large asking for volunteers > doesn't work well. We've had precisely 1 "planning" meeting where > some number of action items were supposedly assigned, but there was > never any follow-up to hold those who volunteered accountable. Paul, You're right, and this is a case in point. I've been working around the clock with little sleep this week, and this is the first time that I've had a chance to read non-urgent email. At our organizational meeting, it was made clear that to get things done, you need to be repetitive, keep stirring the pot as it were. This is hard to do when you're working the kind of hours that I am!! > This group is a social-group by nature. The key to getting anything > done and getting volunteers is to hold a meeting where people show > up. Then at that meeting to set a follow-up meeting for when the > action items assigned can be reported on. We did this way-back when > with Jerry, and it's the only way we pulled off the Linux Business > Show. > > You had some great ideas, and had a lot of interest. But you didn't > generate any momentum or follow-through. As a result, you feel like > you've been left holding the bag. > > There are a lot of people in this group who would be willing to > participate, but they're going to sit on the side lines unless they > see some activity. Reporting to a mail list that "I'm going to start > this neat project" doesn't count as activity. They want to see > something actually happening, they want to show up to something and > feel like they have something to do, and feel like they're part of > something. Perhaps they'd participate if something was "seeded", but none of "those who do things" really have time to single-handedly make things happen all the time. If a project proposal reaps zero response, then perhaps the project sucks, and shouldn't be done. Had I gotten any response, I'd have set up a meeting when all interested could make it, and we'd be off and going. maddog has some stuff to contribute, Ben's going to burn some CDs and Ed's going to make labels. Note that all of the participants are from the group of "those who do things" though! > Another problem is, you're not overly responsive to e-mail. I can't > count the times I've sent you e-mail over the years and never gotten > a response. That doesn't help thngs. Email directly to me gets a response within minutes usually, mailing lists on the other hand, are filed for reading in batches. If an email gets caught by spamblocker, that's a different story... > I don't mean to point the finger, especially since I haven't been the > example of involvement lately, but a lot of this goes back to when > you and I first took over as Co-Chairs. Jerry was very good at > motivating, involving, and rallying people. We're not so good at it. > Perhaps it's time to let others lead and for use to follow? This is what I said at the outset, that I feel it best to resign, and let someone who has time take over. I've since been talked back into it at the meeting last week, at least for a little while. -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
This discussion *really* needs to move to the discuss list: In a message dated: 28 Jan 2004 19:56:43 EST Bruce Dawson said: >> > I didn't understand that's what was needed of the "library project". For >> > some reason, I got the impression that it needs some programming and >> > presentations, ...= >> Just CDs for the moment. It'd be nice to do talks too, and they'd >> like that as well. > >OK. I can handle both of those - but maybe I should ask: what kind of >talks? > >> > Oh. If that's what's needed, I can burn CDs (and possibly even DVD's, >> > and I need an excuse to try that out). Count me in. (But not until >> > March). I just need the ISO images... >> The idea would be that you'd burn stuff you use, so you'd download >> for your own use, and give the library a copy that you've tried out. > >I'm not clear why they want only stuff *I* use. > >If you can give me the URLs for the messages describing the project >(before Friday), then I'll enter it into the Wiki. It could clear up a >lot of confusion. > [...snip...] >Again, this information would be useful in the Project Description. >Putting it in the Wiki means *we* (not just one person) can fine-tune it >as things change. > >> > For which library? And how are they being trained? Can you "release" >> > your training materials for others to improve/use? Also, what about the >> > sales pitch you are using? Can you share that? >> Sigh. Again, these are details that I'd planned to share with the >> contributors who were to have signed up. I didn't get any (but >> it now looks as though you may sign up?) > >As I said, I'm interested, but I want to better know what I'm getting >into. > [...description of project...[ > >Ah Ha! The germ of the project. Just what I was looking for, but >couldn't remember or find. This exchange beautifully explains IMO, why there are no volunteers. No one understands what's going on, there are no meetings ever scheduled to provide information, and those who think they *might* be interested never get confirmation because there's no follow-through. Putting the onus on the those who we want to be volunteers to get their information by pulling teeth is not an effectivee method. -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 17:42:49 EST Rob Lembree said: >The original posting identified the library as Nashua Public. I >don't have time to hand-hold more than one at the moment. The >rest are details that I'd work out with the contributors. For >example, you can mail them to me, and I'll deliver them, or I >can put you in contact with the library folks who are lined up >to package them to go into circulation. > >> For which library? And how are they being trained? Can you "release" >> your training materials for others to improve/use? Also, what about the >> sales pitch you are using? Can you share that? > >Sigh. Again, these are details that I'd planned to share with the >contributors who were to have signed up. I didn't get any (but >it now looks as though you may sign up?) Don't you see the problem here? You're asking for volunteers for the unknown. You need to tell people exactly what they're signing up for, or at least tell them you're holding a meeting to explain what needs you have. Once you get people there in a captive audience where they can't hide by lurking anonymously, you're more likely to get volunteers. I didn't quite grok what your 'Library project' was when reading it on the discuss list. I had questions similar to Bruce's (though I knew it didn't require coding :) But there wasn't much substance to it, and it left me wanting more information which never came. (you could say I should have asked, however, I shouldn't need to is the point. There are a whole bunch of people on that list that likely had similar questions. It's up to us as the organizers to provide either the answers, or the forum more conducive to questions getting asked.) -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:32:59 EST Ed Lawson said: >I am going to contact the presenter and see what might be done. >I will report back to this list with his response. How about reporting back to the general discussion list and including some background on what's going on, and a list of specific items you need help with? -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:32:46 EST Rob Lembree said: >This is a perfect example of something that we should be involved >with. My year-old grand scheme would be that Ed or someone step >forward with the opportunity, volunteer to lead a project, and >ask for participation. A few people step forward to volunteer, >and an event comes off. Simple as that, if people volunteer. Volunteer for what? You can't just say, "Hey, we want to do some neat project, but we need some volunteers!" You need to come up with the project, tell people about it, tell them: - what you want to do - what you need help with - when you're going to do it - where you're going to do it - why you're going to do it *then* ask for volunteers. -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:22:55 EST Rob Lembree said: >On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:19, Ed Lawson wrote: >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:21:25 -0500 >> Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> > Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all >> > by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because >> > nobody stepped forward to help out. >> >> >> Bob, you must have missed by e-mail. I have collections of OSS software >> and a web interface for them that I burn onto CDs to give out at >> presentations to educators. I would be glad to prepare copies and >> design a label for the project. It isn't feasible for me to go to >> Nashua for on site stuff. > >Great, that'll help. Let's go offline with this. Please send a >list of what you've got! N! See, right there, you're excluding people. Don't take this offline! Take it to the discuss list. Include other people, show them that something *is* in fact happening! But for Heaven's sake, don't take it offline, that's the kiss of death for any project which is supposed to include a completely *on-line* group! -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:19:19 EST Rob Lembree said: >> Do anything! Like the library project! Like the web site. Like the >> distribution disks. Like the booth at Hosstraders. >> >> It seems we have a problem coordinating things with multiple people >> (except probably drinking beer), so maybe we should just stick with >> one-person projects until someone comes along and shows us how to do >> things as a team. > >Well, a long while back (a year ago), I wanted some "project leads" >to step forward to handle a number of ideas that I had. I got zero >response! IIRC, we actually had a meeting, where some tasks were "assigned", but that was it. There was no follow-up meeting or anything, and everyone just forgot about it all. >I figured that if some of the "core" people took on >projects with people contributing, that'd be the way to make us >work as a team. The library work was a recent idea, but now I'm >not only the leader of the group, but the project leader for the >project, and the only contributor. It's not working. I do think >that apathy might be a part of it. Certainly, something's keeping >people from stepping forward to do stuff. I think it's the lack of activity. We need to make people realize that something is actually happening. Set a planning date for this. Send out an e-mail stating you've done some legwork, what you've discovered, what you'd like to, and that you need help. Then tell people that there will be a planning meeting on such-and-such a date at some specific place, and ask for rsvps. See what happens. >I understand, and I'd agree with your "doing things" thing, except >that nobody's doing things, except those few of us who arrange >meetings and the hosstraders presence. Well, that's the "New Englander" way. "If there's no effort on my part, and stuff is still happening, it works for me!". We need to change that :) -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:56:03 EST Ed Lawson said: >I think the issue rob is point out is that he did ask for help on the >list. I think the only person other than me who responded was Randy out >in the pacific. There is no mechanism for getting a few people together >and mulling over a project, honing the details, and assigning >responsibility to see it gets done. What mechanism does there need to be? I'm willing to bet that if Rob had announced this project to the list, asked for help, then followed with a scheduled meeting date to discuss, plan, and assign, a few people would have showed up. But that didn't happen. This is group is mostly a virtual group. 99% of our activity is via the mail list. Some of our most vocal members are either not local (Derek is Korea now, Randy is in the Pacific) or never attend meetings (I'm virtually unable to make it given my current employment situation, my brother has never made it to a single meeting). So just saying on the mailing list that someone has a great idea leads everyone to expect that there will be some kind of follow-up. Announce that you have a grat idea, then follow it up with a schedule of planning meetings, and make them on weekends, and I guarantee someone will show up. As several cases-in-point: - The Linux Business Show had more volunteers "members" workin on it than I had ever seen participating in the mail list. There were peoples spouses, boy/girl-friends, kids, etc. We gained a lot of new members this way as well. - Maddog continually gets people to show up for Hosstraders every single year. How? Follow-through. He announces the date of Hosstraders, then states that he will be there, with a table or two. A few people respond to the mail, and several show up at Hosstraders. - Maddog had no shortage of people willing to man the tables at the PC shows at Rockingham Park. How? He announced the date, told people what needed to be done, what times needed coverage, and asked for volunteers. People volunteered, showed up, and got the jobs done. Those are just the examples I can think of. Contrast that with what we've don't recently (i.e. since Jerry left). We spoken of grandiose plans to formalize, to do 'one outside talk a month', to bring open source to the libraries, etc. But we haven't stated what needs to be done, nor actually scheduled any event (e.g. a planning meeting, etc.). There's nothing of substance to any of these great ideas, just talk. What we need is follow-through and action. One person going off and doing it, then saying "I've started doing this, who wants to join me?" isn't follow-through. And it's not going to get people to want to help. Why? Because they want to be *part* of something, and all this tells them is they have to do something alone. Give them a team to belong to, something bigger than themselves to contribute to and be a part of, and they'll come. Tell them they have to give a talk by themselves to a bunch of strangers, and they'll run away. We have an awful lot of "organizers" on this '-org' list. Unfortunately, there's not a lot "organizing" happening. Not only that, the members of this list haven't really changed over all the years I've been part of GNHLUG. I think we're all getting burnt out, frustrated, and disappointed. Combine that with the precious little "free" time most of have, and we've got a recipe for disaster. So, what do we do about it? How do we fix it? Maybe our problem is we're thinking too big? Should we start with smaller ideas which might have a better than average success rate? This could build some momentum which could lead to bigger and bigger things. Remember, Linus didn't start out to build the OS that would rival Microsoft. He start out building a better modem terminall emulator... -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
Sorry for not joining this earlier. I have so little time lately, and I'm so far behind in e-mail (approx. 2200 unread messages and counting :( In a message dated: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:21:25 EST Rob Lembree said: >We have the paperwork complete, and I am willing to donate the >$25 filing fee -- but I haven't done it yet because I've seen >a complete vacuum in people coming forward to help do things >with the group. [...snip...] >Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all >by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because >nobody stepped forward to help out. I'm now afraid that if >I act as a leader, I'll end up doing all the work. > >The reason for formalizing was not to collect dues, it was to >give a tax beneficial structure for an active group to do some >good things for the community and our members. But if we're >not doing anything, or if only a few people are doing things, >it just doesn't make sense. [...snip...] >Do what? I wanted us to get out and do some good things for Linux >and ourselves, but failed to get anyone to help out. Sigh. See >what I mean? Rob, With all due respect, there's been no follow-up on anything. Just lobbing a request out to the list at large asking for volunteers doesn't work well. We've had precisely 1 "planning" meeting where some number of action items were supposedly assigned, but there was never any follow-up to hold those who volunteered accountable. This group is a social-group by nature. The key to getting anything done and getting volunteers is to hold a meeting where people show up. Then at that meeting to set a follow-up meeting for when the action items assigned can be reported on. We did this way-back when with Jerry, and it's the only way we pulled off the Linux Business Show. You had some great ideas, and had a lot of interest. But you didn't generate any momentum or follow-through. As a result, you feel like you've been left holding the bag. There are a lot of people in this group who would be willing to participate, but they're going to sit on the side lines unless they see some activity. Reporting to a mail list that "I'm going to start this neat project" doesn't count as activity. They want to see something actually happening, they want to show up to something and feel like they have something to do, and feel like they're part of something. Another problem is, you're not overly responsive to e-mail. I can't count the times I've sent you e-mail over the years and never gotten a response. That doesn't help thngs. I don't mean to point the finger, especially since I haven't been the example of involvement lately, but a lot of this goes back to when you and I first took over as Co-Chairs. Jerry was very good at motivating, involving, and rallying people. We're not so good at it. Perhaps it's time to let others lead and for use to follow? -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 13:36, Randy Edwards wrote: > > For example the Ruby session coming up could be followed by one showing > > how to use a common application such as Gaim or Firebird or Abiword, [...] > > I think if the goal is to broaden the group beyond geeks/coders/admins, > that idea is a must. Ed's perspective of keeping apps in mind is a key for > "regular" users. Yes, I agree on all point. The key will be to get enough "regular" users to show up to make it worthwhile! :-) This has been a challenge. And hopefully, someone who does such a talk can do it a few times around the state. r -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
For example the Ruby session coming up could be followed by one showing how to use a common application such as Gaim or Firebird or Abiword, [...] I think if the goal is to broaden the group beyond geeks/coders/admins, that idea is a must. Ed's perspective of keeping apps in mind is a key for "regular" users. -- Regards, | There are 10 kinds of people in the world: .| those who get binary, and those who don't. Randy| ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
I think the only person other than me who responded was Randy out in the pacific. Actually, I'm now back in NH, dipping my toes into the job market here (now I know what they mean when they say "jobless economic recovery"?!:-). -- Regards, | There are 10 kinds of people in the world: .| those who get binary, and those who don't. Randy| ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 19:56, Bruce Dawson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 17:42, Rob Lembree wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 17:16, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > > > Hmmm. I think we dropped something - Ed's workshop possibility - unless > > > he's described this earlier (like: weeks or months ago). > > He mentioned it this afternoon in this thread. Linux training > > with the guy from Maine, for educators, etc. > > Do you mean this: > > > > Bob, you must have missed by e-mail. I have collections of OSS > software > > > and a web interface for them that I burn onto CDs to give out at > > > presentations to educators. I would be glad to prepare copies and > > > design a label for the project. It isn't feasible for me to go to > > > Nashua for on site stuff. > > Great, that'll help. Let's go offline with this. Please send a > > list of what you've got! > > That didn't mention anything about a "guy from Maine", and the educators > part was mentioned almost in passing. So I couldn't figure out what you > were talking about until I went pawing through the archives. No, I meant this: > > > From: > Ed Lawson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: > Re: > [Centralug] > Re: > [Gnhlug-org] moving on > Date: > Wed, 28 Jan > 2004 > 10:56:03 > -0500 > > On 28 Jan 2004 10:56:33 -0500 > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I think you're doing the right thing - then advertise the effort to > > the GNHLUG group. Sure, solicit help, (which you did), and it'll > come > > if there's sufficient interest. > > > I think the issue rob is point out is that he did ask for help on the > list. I think the only person other than me who responded was Randy > out > in the pacific. There is no mechanism for getting a few people > together > and mulling over a project, honing the details, and assigning > responsibility to see it gets done. Sure one person can do big > things. > But if one person does a big thing on their own and manages to collect > a > follower or two, who did it and why should anyone say GNHLUG did it? > > > Case in point. The Tech Coordinators organization for NH schools > (NHSTE) is having a four day workshop next month on the use of Linux > in > schools. Yes, that is a workshop that lasts four days, all day and > these educators are paying $550/person to attend. > > http://www.kannoncom.com/nhsteweb/pd/linux_workshops > > This seminar has some very interesting topics from the basics of > Linux to showing how to to develop and deploy Linux in a school > setting. > The presenter is a person from Maine with national recognition for > using Linux in a school. Is this something GNHLUG could help with, > could > GNHLUG provide assistance to school tech coordinators in learn, > installing, and use Linux? Should the existence of GNHLUG be made > known at the workshop as a valuable local resource. I would think so. > I > would hope so. Now, just how is that done? Do I as an individual > have > the right to speak for GNHLUG? Do I dare do it alone and set up GNHLUG > for obligating itself to help educators in any way? If I wanted to > get > the OK from GNHLUG to inform workshop attendees of the resources > available in GNHLUG, whom do I ask, what authority to they have to act > or authorize? Without some way to follow through, I am not about to > risk setting up the attendees for disappointment and failure in > dealing > with Linux and GNHLUG by bringing GNHLUG to their attention. So we are > losing a great opportunity, IMHO, due to the lack of some minimal > level > of organization. If the deal is GNHLUG provides a venue to sit around > and make snide comments about MSFT, fine. I just think GNHLUG should > be > more and should be a means of promoting Linux and helping those who > want > to explore it. I don't see it doing that without some level > of organization. Maybe what is needed is a different > organization. Obviously you caught me on a roll today. > > Ed Lawson > > ___ > Gnhlug-org mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org > Can we prevent things like this from happening in the future? Well, I dunno. Perhaps I could have described the email better. > Yes - I've set up a TWiki page: > http://wiki.gnhlug.org/twiki2/bin/view/Gnhlug/WebHome (Fortunately, Ben > Scott was gracious en
library project, was: Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 19:56, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > > I didn't understand that's what was needed of the "library project". For > > > some reason, I got the impression that it needs some programming and > > > presentations, ... > > Just CDs for the moment. It'd be nice to do talks too, and they'd > > like that as well. > > OK. I can handle both of those - but maybe I should ask: what kind of > talks? Introductory, how to install, how the shell works, using KDE/Gnome, using OpenOffice, using GIMP, using Evolution, etc. Remember that these are newbies. But this is a different thread. This is one project with a lot of potential, and will need more than two people to make successful. > > > Oh. If that's what's needed, I can burn CDs (and possibly even DVD's, > > > and I need an excuse to try that out). Count me in. (But not until > > > March). I just need the ISO images... > > The idea would be that you'd burn stuff you use, so you'd download > > for your own use, and give the library a copy that you've tried > > out. > > I'm not clear why they want only stuff *I* use. I figure that with enough people doing this, we can cover a lot of stuff. If YOU use a tool, then YOU'll be downloading new copies when they come out, burning for your own use, and can provide the library with a CD that you've installed from (quality control). > If you can give me the URLs for the messages describing the project > (before Friday), then I'll enter it into the Wiki. It could clear up a > lot of confusion. OK. > > Again, this information would be useful in the Project Description. > Putting it in the Wiki means *we* (not just one person) can fine-tune it > as things change. Fair enough. > > For the moment, we don't need training materials, just CDs that > > are tested, along with 1..many sheets of printed paper to help > > newbies find more docs, or perhaps donated printed manuals. > > The idea is that the library have CDs for those w/o broadband > > who want to try Linux. Once this is in place the library will > > advertise this in the paper and in publications that it produces. > > The CDs will have GNHLUG info for those who want more help or > > who are interested in training. If there's demand for training, > > we get a few volunteers to deliver it at the library itself. > > Ah Ha! The germ of the project. Just what I was looking for, but > couldn't remember or find. > > > gotta head out to the merrilug meeting now. > > Sigh. Wish I could make it tonight! > > --Bruce -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 17:42, Rob Lembree wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 17:16, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > Hmmm. I think we dropped something - Ed's workshop possibility - unless > > he's described this earlier (like: weeks or months ago). > He mentioned it this afternoon in this thread. Linux training > with the guy from Maine, for educators, etc. Do you mean this: > > Bob, you must have missed by e-mail. I have collections of OSS software > > and a web interface for them that I burn onto CDs to give out at > > presentations to educators. I would be glad to prepare copies and > > design a label for the project. It isn't feasible for me to go to > > Nashua for on site stuff. > Great, that'll help. Let's go offline with this. Please send a > list of what you've got! That didn't mention anything about a "guy from Maine", and the educators part was mentioned almost in passing. So I couldn't figure out what you were talking about until I went pawing through the archives. Can we prevent things like this from happening in the future? Yes - I've set up a TWiki page: http://wiki.gnhlug.org/twiki2/bin/view/Gnhlug/WebHome (Fortunately, Ben Scott was gracious enough to go through and re-organize the TWiki and made this space available.) But, if Ed wants his project to be a GNHLUG project, then it too should be listed on that page - and maintained. > > But, I believe that, as far as keeping the organization in a operable > > state, we currently have all that's needed. Of course, its a shell of > > what it could be, but we can work on that later. > Except people who aren't burned out to pitch in. Pretty basic > in my estimation. My point was, the shell will continue to exist once the current activists have gone away (for whatever reasons - burned out, relocated to the south pacific, death, ...) Or if the leadership has changed, or if . We have enough now to keep the formalities of the organization alive and so that someone else can pick up (the pieces) if need-be. (And I'm not suggesting that you step down - although you sound about as burned out as I was when I stepped down, so you may want to). [enter soap-box mode] I for one don't appreciate someone holding the corporate papers hostage just to get a fire lit under the membership. (If education is our mission, then I submit that the educational paradigm requires the majority of the membership be an audience - which almost by definition, is passive). > > > In short, we need to be doing things that fulfills our mission. > > Or kill ourselves doing it? > Ya. If we're not fulfilling our mission, why exist as an umbrella > organization at all? An operative word here is "we". I'd agree that the membership is a little sluggish, but I believe we're far from not fulfilling the mission - look at the mailing list - if that's not educational, what is? And a lot of the meetings are educational too. My point is: I believe you (Rob) are confusing the "we" and "I" - You may believe that we're not fulfilling our mission, but I don't. And we're both part of the membership - I suspect a lot of the whole membership will feel either or both ways. So, this is not a sufficient reason to dissolve GNHLUG (not that it has "precipitated" until the papers are in the state's hands). ]exit soap-box mode] > > I didn't understand that's what was needed of the "library project". For > > some reason, I got the impression that it needs some programming and > > presentations, ... > Just CDs for the moment. It'd be nice to do talks too, and they'd > like that as well. OK. I can handle both of those - but maybe I should ask: what kind of talks? > > Oh. If that's what's needed, I can burn CDs (and possibly even DVD's, > > and I need an excuse to try that out). Count me in. (But not until > > March). I just need the ISO images... > The idea would be that you'd burn stuff you use, so you'd download > for your own use, and give the library a copy that you've tried > out. I'm not clear why they want only stuff *I* use. If you can give me the URLs for the messages describing the project (before Friday), then I'll enter it into the Wiki. It could clear up a lot of confusion. > > Ah ha! Now, who finds the library I give it to? (I need a name, address, > > ... with which to deliver the CD(s)). Does someone already have them, or > > do I have to find them myself? > The original posting identified the library as Nashua Public. I > don't have time to hand-hold more than one at the moment. The > rest are details that I'd work out with the contributors. For > example, you can mail them to me, and I'll deliver them, or I > can put you in contact with the library folks who are lined up > to package them to go into circulation. Again, this information would be useful in the Project Description. Putting it in the Wiki means *we* (not just one person) can fine-tune it as things change. > > For which library? And how are they being trained? Can you "release" > > your training materials
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 17:16, Bruce Dawson wrote: > Hmmm. I think we dropped something - Ed's workshop possibility - unless > he's described this earlier (like: weeks or months ago). He mentioned it this afternoon in this thread. Linux training with the guy from Maine, for educators, etc. > But, I believe that, as far as keeping the organization in a operable > state, we currently have all that's needed. Of course, its a shell of > what it could be, but we can work on that later. Except people who aren't burned out to pitch in. Pretty basic in my estimation. > > In short, we need to be doing things that fulfills our mission. > > Or kill ourselves doing it? Ya. If we're not fulfilling our mission, why exist as an umbrella organization at all? > I didn't understand that's what was needed of the "library project". For > some reason, I got the impression that it needs some programming and > presentations, ... Just CDs for the moment. It'd be nice to do talks too, and they'd like that as well. > Oh. If that's what's needed, I can burn CDs (and possibly even DVD's, > and I need an excuse to try that out). Count me in. (But not until > March). I just need the ISO images... The idea would be that you'd burn stuff you use, so you'd download for your own use, and give the library a copy that you've tried out. > Ah ha! Now, who finds the library I give it to? (I need a name, address, > ... with which to deliver the CD(s)). Does someone already have them, or > do I have to find them myself? The original posting identified the library as Nashua Public. I don't have time to hand-hold more than one at the moment. The rest are details that I'd work out with the contributors. For example, you can mail them to me, and I'll deliver them, or I can put you in contact with the library folks who are lined up to package them to go into circulation. > For which library? And how are they being trained? Can you "release" > your training materials for others to improve/use? Also, what about the > sales pitch you are using? Can you share that? Sigh. Again, these are details that I'd planned to share with the contributors who were to have signed up. I didn't get any (but it now looks as though you may sign up?) For the moment, we don't need training materials, just CDs that are tested, along with 1..many sheets of printed paper to help newbies find more docs, or perhaps donated printed manuals. The idea is that the library have CDs for those w/o broadband who want to try Linux. Once this is in place the library will advertise this in the paper and in publications that it produces. The CDs will have GNHLUG info for those who want more help or who are interested in training. If there's demand for training, we get a few volunteers to deliver it at the library itself. gotta head out to the merrilug meeting now. r -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:09, Ed Lawson wrote: > On 28 Jan 2004 15:17:01 -0500 > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But I suspect others might have similar requirements. And most people > > aren't familiar with the tools (hmmm: that could be a meeting topic), > I think it has been raised before and you have raised it again. It > would absolutely be a good idea to have a program on using Wikis in > general and using the ones of GNHLUG in particular as well as community > forum or whatever the name dejour is for Post-Nuke type apps. > I think we should schedule that for a topic at Centalug or some location > with internet access in two or three months. I take it Berube is > listening? Well, I can talk about the Wiki's I know about and [ab]use - I just need in invitation for sometime after mid-March... > We need to mix topics to appeal to those who code and stuff, to those > who want to try Linux out, and those who mainly use applications. Agreed. > For example the Ruby session coming up could be followed by one showing > how to use a common application such as Gaim or Firebird or Abiword, > followed by one comparing the various distros. Yup. Dave B has been pretty good about having these demonstration sessions. --Bruce signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 16:06, Rob Lembree wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:09, Ed Lawson wrote: > > So we are going to have dinner before the meeting next week or beer > > afterwards and redesign the world or what? > I might be able to make it up there for such a meeting. > I'd suggest that afterwards would be better for me though. I'll be overseas starting next week and through the whole month (if current plans hold any meaning). --Bruce signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 16:04, Rob Lembree wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:17, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 14:19, Rob Lembree wrote: > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:56, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:21, Rob Lembree wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:06, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > > > > > > > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > > > > > > > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ok. That explains that. But can you describe the complete picture and > > what's missing? (I was under the impression that only some signatures > > and claims to responsibility were required - which we had at one point.) > The complete picture is a functional organization that is doing > education about Linux. If I'm not mistaken, the paperwork calls > that out as our purpose. Maybe (but slightly maybe) the mail list > qualifies, our occasional meetings qualify, but there's nothing > else. If we can get projects started and healthy like the library > work, and like Ed's workshop possibility, THEN it makes sense. Hmmm. I think we dropped something - Ed's workshop possibility - unless he's described this earlier (like: weeks or months ago). But, I believe that, as far as keeping the organization in a operable state, we currently have all that's needed. Of course, its a shell of what it could be, but we can work on that later. > In short, we need to be doing things that fulfills our mission. Or kill ourselves doing it? > > How many of our "members" are on sourceforge projects? I suspect the > > answer is near zero. > I'd believe that. Most of our members are users and sysadmins, or > do coding for hire. I suspected as much. But I've always had the delusions of programmers being at our core. > > Rob: If you put the library on sourceforge or savannah or somesuch, do > > you think you'd get a better response? > Eh, it's a local project, and it needs local contribution. People > burning CDs, printing docs and dropping it off. Ideal for a LUG, > less ideal for a distributed project. I didn't understand that's what was needed of the "library project". For some reason, I got the impression that it needs some programming and presentations, ... > It's not a library package. It's making CDs available for the > library to put out in circulation. I thought that was clear, but > maybe not Oh. If that's what's needed, I can burn CDs (and possibly even DVD's, and I need an excuse to try that out). Count me in. (But not until March). I just need the ISO images... > > The projects I would work on have to be *very easy* for me to pick up > > and put down. They would most likely have to be based on savannah or > > sourceforge (if only those tools were more reliable) and they would have > > to be 90% coding and/or documenting. Specifications would have to be at > > least 80% technical, 0% style, and less than 5% political (getting > > buy-in on techniques). Projects meeting those specs are the only ones I > > can afford to work on - even Carole's projects have to meet them! > Here's an example: you like Mandrake for example. A new mandrake > comes along, you download it for yourself anyway, and you burn > an extra copy for the library, print out a 'readme' and deliver > it to the library. Pretty easy, really. Ah ha! Now, who finds the library I give it to? (I need a name, address, ... with which to deliver the CD(s)). Does someone already have them, or do I have to find them myself? The former is easy - the latter requires work that I wasn't prepared to do. > As for me, I'm doing RH9, TheOpenCD and knoppix. For which library? And how are they being trained? Can you "release" your training materials for others to improve/use? Also, what about the sales pitch you are using? Can you share that? These are things that stymie most sysadmins, users, programmers. Help will be needed for those things - and they will probably be jointly developed. > > But I suspect others might have similar requirements. And most people > > aren't familiar with the tools (hmmm: that could be a meeting topic), > > and if anyone else is like me, their experience tells them that > > coordinating a software engineering effort is harder than herding cats. > I wouldn't even bother doing a sw eng project with the LUG. It's > not the appropriate forum for doing that. SF would be better. OK. I mis-understood the scope of the project. But SF would probably be good for the training materiel and documentation. --Bruce signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:09, Ed Lawson wrote: > On 28 Jan 2004 15:17:01 -0500 > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > But I suspect others might have similar requirements. And most people > > aren't familiar with the tools (hmmm: that could be a meeting topic), > > I think it has been raised before and you have raised it again. It > would absolutely be a good idea to have a program on using Wikis in > general and using the ones of GNHLUG in particular as well as community > forum or whatever the name dejour is for Post-Nuke type apps. > I think we should schedule that for a topic at Centalug or some location > with internet access in two or three months. I take it Berube is > listening? > > We need to mix topics to appeal to those who code and stuff, to those > who want to try Linux out, and those who mainly use applications. > > For example the Ruby session coming up could be followed by one showing > how to use a common application such as Gaim or Firebird or Abiword, > followed by one comparing the various distros. > > So we are going to have dinner before the meeting next week or beer > afterwards and redesign the world or what? I might be able to make it up there for such a meeting. I'd suggest that afterwards would be better for me though. > > Ed Lawson > ___ > Gnhlug-org mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:17, Bruce Dawson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 14:19, Rob Lembree wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:56, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:21, Rob Lembree wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:06, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > > > > > > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > > > > > > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > We have the paperwork complete, and I am willing to donate the > > > > $25 filing fee -- but I haven't done it yet because I've seen > > > > a complete vacuum in people coming forward to help do things > > > > with the group. > > > Thanks for donating the fee - I never knew what was going on with that > > > because no one bothered to post a message to the -org list. > > I've sat on it because while I still think it's the right thing > > to do, I haven't been able to invigorate the group to make it > > a complete picture. > > Ok. That explains that. But can you describe the complete picture and > what's missing? (I was under the impression that only some signatures > and claims to responsibility were required - which we had at one point.) The complete picture is a functional organization that is doing education about Linux. If I'm not mistaken, the paperwork calls that out as our purpose. Maybe (but slightly maybe) the mail list qualifies, our occasional meetings qualify, but there's nothing else. If we can get projects started and healthy like the library work, and like Ed's workshop possibility, THEN it makes sense. In short, we need to be doing things that fulfills our mission. > > Well, ya, the core group can't do all the work, and by and > > large, that's what we've done for quite a while now. > > I find myself asking the question: why don't people want to work with > us? Either everyone has highly pressing jobs, or its too difficult to > coordinate work. And its just not "fun" (a side effect of being a "geek > social club" I think). > > How many of our "members" are on sourceforge projects? I suspect the > answer is near zero. I'd believe that. Most of our members are users and sysadmins, or do coding for hire. > Rob: If you put the library on sourceforge or savannah or somesuch, do > you think you'd get a better response? Eh, it's a local project, and it needs local contribution. People burning CDs, printing docs and dropping it off. Ideal for a LUG, less ideal for a distributed project. > I think we've all tried creating a "GNHLUG project". From Jerry's > Business Show to my generally giving up on the idea due to lack of > commitment. I was never able to overcome that. > > As for your projects, at that time, I was over-committed at work - and > lately (and no offense) - library packages don't appeal to me. If > someone were to pay me to work on them, then I'd probably consider it, > but its not something I want to do on my own time. It's not a library package. It's making CDs available for the library to put out in circulation. I thought that was clear, but maybe not > The projects I would work on have to be *very easy* for me to pick up > and put down. They would most likely have to be based on savannah or > sourceforge (if only those tools were more reliable) and they would have > to be 90% coding and/or documenting. Specifications would have to be at > least 80% technical, 0% style, and less than 5% political (getting > buy-in on techniques). Projects meeting those specs are the only ones I > can afford to work on - even Carole's projects have to meet them! Here's an example: you like Mandrake for example. A new mandrake comes along, you download it for yourself anyway, and you burn an extra copy for the library, print out a 'readme' and deliver it to the library. Pretty easy, really. As for me, I'm doing RH9, TheOpenCD and knoppix. > But I suspect others might have similar requirements. And most people > aren't familiar with the tools (hmmm: that could be a meeting topic), > and if anyone else is like me, their experience tells them that > coordinating a software engineering effort is harder than herding cats. I wouldn't even bother doing a sw eng project with the LUG. It's not the appropriate forum for doing that. SF would be better. -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On 28 Jan 2004 15:17:01 -0500 Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But I suspect others might have similar requirements. And most people > aren't familiar with the tools (hmmm: that could be a meeting topic), I think it has been raised before and you have raised it again. It would absolutely be a good idea to have a program on using Wikis in general and using the ones of GNHLUG in particular as well as community forum or whatever the name dejour is for Post-Nuke type apps. I think we should schedule that for a topic at Centalug or some location with internet access in two or three months. I take it Berube is listening? We need to mix topics to appeal to those who code and stuff, to those who want to try Linux out, and those who mainly use applications. For example the Ruby session coming up could be followed by one showing how to use a common application such as Gaim or Firebird or Abiword, followed by one comparing the various distros. So we are going to have dinner before the meeting next week or beer afterwards and redesign the world or what? Ed Lawson ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:32:46 -0500 Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Simple as that, if people volunteer. I am going to contact the presenter and see what might be done. I will report back to this list with his response. Ed Lawson ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 14:19, Rob Lembree wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:56, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:21, Rob Lembree wrote: > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:06, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > > > > > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > > > > > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > We have the paperwork complete, and I am willing to donate the > > > $25 filing fee -- but I haven't done it yet because I've seen > > > a complete vacuum in people coming forward to help do things > > > with the group. > > Thanks for donating the fee - I never knew what was going on with that > > because no one bothered to post a message to the -org list. > I've sat on it because while I still think it's the right thing > to do, I haven't been able to invigorate the group to make it > a complete picture. Ok. That explains that. But can you describe the complete picture and what's missing? (I was under the impression that only some signatures and claims to responsibility were required - which we had at one point.) > > > Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all > > > by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because > > > nobody stepped forward to help out. I'm now afraid that if > > > I act as a leader, I'll end up doing all the work. > > I think you're doing the right thing - then advertise the effort to the > > GNHLUG group. Sure, solicit help, (which you did), and it'll come if > > there's sufficient interest. > > If enough good things are done in the name of GNHLUG, then people will > > start coming again. But we need to be careful that we don't overwhelm > > ourselves with work. > Well, ya, the core group can't do all the work, and by and > large, that's what we've done for quite a while now. I find myself asking the question: why don't people want to work with us? Either everyone has highly pressing jobs, or its too difficult to coordinate work. And its just not "fun" (a side effect of being a "geek social club" I think). How many of our "members" are on sourceforge projects? I suspect the answer is near zero. Rob: If you put the library on sourceforge or savannah or somesuch, do you think you'd get a better response? > > > > Seems to me, we just need someone to "take charge" and do it - if we > > > > don't like it, then we can leave. Sorta like what maddog did back in the > > > > early days - when things were exciting. > > > Do what? I wanted us to get out and do some good things for Linux > > > and ourselves, but failed to get anyone to help out. Sigh. See > > > what I mean? > > Do anything! Like the library project! Like the web site. Like the > > distribution disks. Like the booth at Hosstraders. > > It seems we have a problem coordinating things with multiple people > > (except probably drinking beer), so maybe we should just stick with > > one-person projects until someone comes along and shows us how to do > > things as a team. > Well, a long while back (a year ago), I wanted some "project leads" > to step forward to handle a number of ideas that I had. I got zero > response! I figured that if some of the "core" people took on > projects with people contributing, that'd be the way to make us > work as a team. The library work was a recent idea, but now I'm > not only the leader of the group, but the project leader for the > project, and the only contributor. It's not working. I do think > that apathy might be a part of it. Certainly, something's keeping > people from stepping forward to do stuff. I think we've all tried creating a "GNHLUG project". From Jerry's Business Show to my generally giving up on the idea due to lack of commitment. I was never able to overcome that. As for your projects, at that time, I was over-committed at work - and lately (and no offense) - library packages don't appeal to me. If someone were to pay me to work on them, then I'd probably consider it, but its not something I want to do on my own time. The projects I would work on have to be *very easy* for me to pick up and put down. They would most likely have to be based on savannah or sourceforge (if only those tools were more reliable) and they would have to be 90% coding and/or documenting. Specifications would have to be at least 80% technical, 0% style, and less than 5% political (getting buy-in on techniques). Projects meeting those specs are the only ones I can afford to work on - even Carole's projects have to meet them! I'm saying the above just to illustrate my minimum requirements for a project. And those don't include things like: interest in the problem, social involvement, benefit to me, how detailed my descriptions of problems have to be, ... But I suspect others might have similar requirements. And most people aren't familiar with the tools (hmmm: that could be a meeting topic), and if anyone else is like me, their experience tells them that coordinating a software engineering effort is harder than h
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:56, Ed Lawson wrote: > On 28 Jan 2004 10:56:33 -0500 > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I think you're doing the right thing - then advertise the effort to > > the GNHLUG group. Sure, solicit help, (which you did), and it'll come > > if there's sufficient interest. > > > I think the issue rob is point out is that he did ask for help on the > list. I think the only person other than me who responded was Randy out > in the pacific. There is no mechanism for getting a few people together > and mulling over a project, honing the details, and assigning > responsibility to see it gets done. Sure one person can do big things. > But if one person does a big thing on their own and manages to collect a > follower or two, who did it and why should anyone say GNHLUG did it? > > > Case in point. The Tech Coordinators organization for NH schools > (NHSTE) is having a four day workshop next month on the use of Linux in > schools. Yes, that is a workshop that lasts four days, all day and > these educators are paying $550/person to attend. > > http://www.kannoncom.com/nhsteweb/pd/linux_workshops > > This seminar has some very interesting topics from the basics of > Linux to showing how to to develop and deploy Linux in a school setting. > The presenter is a person from Maine with national recognition for > using Linux in a school. Is this something GNHLUG could help with, could > GNHLUG provide assistance to school tech coordinators in learn, > installing, and use Linux? Should the existence of GNHLUG be made > known at the workshop as a valuable local resource. I would think so. I > would hope so. Now, just how is that done? Do I as an individual have > the right to speak for GNHLUG? Do I dare do it alone and set up GNHLUG > for obligating itself to help educators in any way? If I wanted to get > the OK from GNHLUG to inform workshop attendees of the resources > available in GNHLUG, whom do I ask, what authority to they have to act > or authorize? Without some way to follow through, I am not about to > risk setting up the attendees for disappointment and failure in dealing > with Linux and GNHLUG by bringing GNHLUG to their attention. So we are > losing a great opportunity, IMHO, due to the lack of some minimal level > of organization. If the deal is GNHLUG provides a venue to sit around > and make snide comments about MSFT, fine. I just think GNHLUG should be > more and should be a means of promoting Linux and helping those who want > to explore it. I don't see it doing that without some level > of organization. Maybe what is needed is a different > organization. Obviously you caught me on a roll today. This is a perfect example of something that we should be involved with. My year-old grand scheme would be that Ed or someone step forward with the opportunity, volunteer to lead a project, and ask for participation. A few people step forward to volunteer, and an event comes off. Simple as that, if people volunteer. > Ed Lawson > > ___ > Gnhlug-org mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:19, Ed Lawson wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:21:25 -0500 > Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all > > by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because > > nobody stepped forward to help out. > > > Bob, you must have missed by e-mail. I have collections of OSS software > and a web interface for them that I burn onto CDs to give out at > presentations to educators. I would be glad to prepare copies and > design a label for the project. It isn't feasible for me to go to > Nashua for on site stuff. Great, that'll help. Let's go offline with this. Please send a list of what you've got! r > > Ed lawson > ___ > Gnhlug-org mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:56, Bruce Dawson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:21, Rob Lembree wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:06, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > > > > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > > > > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I'd like to suggest that the groups have created a comfortable > > > > > structure and that they feel they don't need Quarterly "global" > > > > > meetings anymore. But that they do like (or don't care about) the > > > > > infrastructure that GNHLUG set up, and might continue to use it - > > > > > especially when one finds a "big name" to come speak. Sorta like BLU, > > > > > SwANH, and GNSEG do with GNHLUG. > > > > > > > > I suppose I should keep quiet because I have not helped out as I should > > > > and the current state is the result of people like me not doing anything > > > > to help GNHLUG and Centralug grow. However, talk is cheap. > > > > > > Good. You're not keeping quiet! Talk may be cheap, but it "gets the > > > juices going". > > > > > > I believe you have your gripes with the group - considering all the > > > "waffling" we've done on the "formalization" of the group. Which is > > > something I'm not opposed to, but I am opposed to asking for fees from > > > "members" to support the "formalization". > > We have the paperwork complete, and I am willing to donate the > > $25 filing fee -- but I haven't done it yet because I've seen > > a complete vacuum in people coming forward to help do things > > with the group. > > Thanks for donating the fee - I never knew what was going on with that > because no one bothered to post a message to the -org list. I've sat on it because while I still think it's the right thing to do, I haven't been able to invigorate the group to make it a complete picture. > Hmm. Maybe the real problem is lack of appropriate communications > instead of member apathy. I've often wondered about this - to the point > of wondering if I forgot to say something. > > What things need doing? > > > Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all > > by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because > > nobody stepped forward to help out. I'm now afraid that if > > I act as a leader, I'll end up doing all the work. > > I think you're doing the right thing - then advertise the effort to the > GNHLUG group. Sure, solicit help, (which you did), and it'll come if > there's sufficient interest. > > If enough good things are done in the name of GNHLUG, then people will > start coming again. But we need to be careful that we don't overwhelm > ourselves with work. Well, ya, the core group can't do all the work, and by and large, that's what we've done for quite a while now. > > The reason for formalizing was not to collect dues, it was to > > give a tax beneficial structure for an active group to do some > > good things for the community and our members. But if we're > > not doing anything, or if only a few people are doing things, > > it just doesn't make sense. > > I know that was the reason. But frequently, the financial tail ends up > wagging the dog, and I want to avoid that. If the fees and dues required > of the formalization require us to start asking for membership fees, > then I just want to avoid that. Agreed. > > > Seems to me, we just need someone to "take charge" and do it - if we > > > don't like it, then we can leave. Sorta like what maddog did back in the > > > early days - when things were exciting. > > Do what? I wanted us to get out and do some good things for Linux > > and ourselves, but failed to get anyone to help out. Sigh. See > > what I mean? > > Do anything! Like the library project! Like the web site. Like the > distribution disks. Like the booth at Hosstraders. > > It seems we have a problem coordinating things with multiple people > (except probably drinking beer), so maybe we should just stick with > one-person projects until someone comes along and shows us how to do > things as a team. Well, a long while back (a year ago), I wanted some "project leads" to step forward to handle a number of ideas that I had. I got zero response! I figured that if some of the "core" people took on projects with people contributing, that'd be the way to make us work as a team. The library work was a recent idea, but now I'm not only the leader of the group, but the project leader for the project, and the only contributor. It's not working. I do think that apathy might be a part of it. Certainly, something's keeping people from stepping forward to do stuff. > Rob, I'm not intending to pick on you. Or your excellent and valiant > leadership. Its just that the problem seems very related to the New > Englander mode of "doing things"... Do it yourself and if anyone > complains - well that's their fault. I understand, and I'd agree with your "doing things" thing, except that nobody's doing things, except those few of us who arrange me
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:21:25 -0500 Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all > by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because > nobody stepped forward to help out. Bob, you must have missed by e-mail. I have collections of OSS software and a web interface for them that I burn onto CDs to give out at presentations to educators. I would be glad to prepare copies and design a label for the project. It isn't feasible for me to go to Nashua for on site stuff. Ed lawson ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On 28 Jan 2004 10:56:33 -0500 Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think you're doing the right thing - then advertise the effort to > the GNHLUG group. Sure, solicit help, (which you did), and it'll come > if there's sufficient interest. I think the issue rob is point out is that he did ask for help on the list. I think the only person other than me who responded was Randy out in the pacific. There is no mechanism for getting a few people together and mulling over a project, honing the details, and assigning responsibility to see it gets done. Sure one person can do big things. But if one person does a big thing on their own and manages to collect a follower or two, who did it and why should anyone say GNHLUG did it? Case in point. The Tech Coordinators organization for NH schools (NHSTE) is having a four day workshop next month on the use of Linux in schools. Yes, that is a workshop that lasts four days, all day and these educators are paying $550/person to attend. http://www.kannoncom.com/nhsteweb/pd/linux_workshops This seminar has some very interesting topics from the basics of Linux to showing how to to develop and deploy Linux in a school setting. The presenter is a person from Maine with national recognition for using Linux in a school. Is this something GNHLUG could help with, could GNHLUG provide assistance to school tech coordinators in learn, installing, and use Linux? Should the existence of GNHLUG be made known at the workshop as a valuable local resource. I would think so. I would hope so. Now, just how is that done? Do I as an individual have the right to speak for GNHLUG? Do I dare do it alone and set up GNHLUG for obligating itself to help educators in any way? If I wanted to get the OK from GNHLUG to inform workshop attendees of the resources available in GNHLUG, whom do I ask, what authority to they have to act or authorize? Without some way to follow through, I am not about to risk setting up the attendees for disappointment and failure in dealing with Linux and GNHLUG by bringing GNHLUG to their attention. So we are losing a great opportunity, IMHO, due to the lack of some minimal level of organization. If the deal is GNHLUG provides a venue to sit around and make snide comments about MSFT, fine. I just think GNHLUG should be more and should be a means of promoting Linux and helping those who want to explore it. I don't see it doing that without some level of organization. Maybe what is needed is a different organization. Obviously you caught me on a roll today. Ed Lawson ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On 28 Jan 2004 10:06:38 -0500 Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I believe you have your gripes with the group - considering all the > "waffling" we've done on the "formalization" of the group. No, it was never a point of dispute. I believe there is value in having a legal entity for the organization regardless of how "formal' it is or not. > I am opposed to asking for fees from > "members" to support the "formalization". I think membership fees are a normal part of many clubs and organizations, but having said that, it is also true those groups do something of value for the members with those fees. Not sure what that would be with GNHLUG and without something of value for the members, I would also object to membership fees. Clearly not just for the formalization process. OTOH, is it fair to expect people who are dedicating their time and energy to also contribute their money to provide refreshments at a meeting or food at a party or print t shirts or announcements? I think not. You, Maddog, Jerry and others have contributed no small amount in the past, but I don't think it fair to rely upon a few. If you cannot contribute code or docs, contributing money is another way to support an open source project and GNHLUG is not exception. Either by dues or by contributing freely as the need arises. > Seems to me, we just need someone to "take charge" and do it - if we > don't like it, then we can leave. Sorta like what maddog did back in > the early days - when things were exciting. I agree, but to sustain the organization we need more that a series of folks who will take charge until their energy, time, and money run out. At least to provide a degree of continuity regardless of the degree of formality the group elects to have. I really have no great desire for formality and I suspect the personalities of many of us are more attuned to an informal group. That said, there are valid reasons for some structure and organization depending upon what GNHLUG does and where it wants to go. For example, lets say I have an idea of providing a retirement center with a network with Internet access using Linux as a showcase and simply to do a good thing. Do you think it matters if I talk to the head of the retirement center as just a guy off the street with some vague collection of friends who call themselves GNHLUG or if I go as a representative of a state organization called GNHLUG? If we want to reach beyond ourselves, then some degree of structure becomes important. Ed Lawson ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:21, Rob Lembree wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:06, Bruce Dawson wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > > > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > > > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I'd like to suggest that the groups have created a comfortable > > > > structure and that they feel they don't need Quarterly "global" > > > > meetings anymore. But that they do like (or don't care about) the > > > > infrastructure that GNHLUG set up, and might continue to use it - > > > > especially when one finds a "big name" to come speak. Sorta like BLU, > > > > SwANH, and GNSEG do with GNHLUG. > > > > > > I suppose I should keep quiet because I have not helped out as I should > > > and the current state is the result of people like me not doing anything > > > to help GNHLUG and Centralug grow. However, talk is cheap. > > > > Good. You're not keeping quiet! Talk may be cheap, but it "gets the > > juices going". > > > > I believe you have your gripes with the group - considering all the > > "waffling" we've done on the "formalization" of the group. Which is > > something I'm not opposed to, but I am opposed to asking for fees from > > "members" to support the "formalization". > We have the paperwork complete, and I am willing to donate the > $25 filing fee -- but I haven't done it yet because I've seen > a complete vacuum in people coming forward to help do things > with the group. Thanks for donating the fee - I never knew what was going on with that because no one bothered to post a message to the -org list. Hmm. Maybe the real problem is lack of appropriate communications instead of member apathy. I've often wondered about this - to the point of wondering if I forgot to say something. What things need doing? > Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all > by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because > nobody stepped forward to help out. I'm now afraid that if > I act as a leader, I'll end up doing all the work. I think you're doing the right thing - then advertise the effort to the GNHLUG group. Sure, solicit help, (which you did), and it'll come if there's sufficient interest. If enough good things are done in the name of GNHLUG, then people will start coming again. But we need to be careful that we don't overwhelm ourselves with work. > The reason for formalizing was not to collect dues, it was to > give a tax beneficial structure for an active group to do some > good things for the community and our members. But if we're > not doing anything, or if only a few people are doing things, > it just doesn't make sense. I know that was the reason. But frequently, the financial tail ends up wagging the dog, and I want to avoid that. If the fees and dues required of the formalization require us to start asking for membership fees, then I just want to avoid that. > > Seems to me, we just need someone to "take charge" and do it - if we > > don't like it, then we can leave. Sorta like what maddog did back in the > > early days - when things were exciting. > Do what? I wanted us to get out and do some good things for Linux > and ourselves, but failed to get anyone to help out. Sigh. See > what I mean? Do anything! Like the library project! Like the web site. Like the distribution disks. Like the booth at Hosstraders. It seems we have a problem coordinating things with multiple people (except probably drinking beer), so maybe we should just stick with one-person projects until someone comes along and shows us how to do things as a team. Rob, I'm not intending to pick on you. Or your excellent and valiant leadership. Its just that the problem seems very related to the New Englander mode of "doing things"... Do it yourself and if anyone complains - well that's their fault. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 10:06, Bruce Dawson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I'd like to suggest that the groups have created a comfortable > > > structure and that they feel they don't need Quarterly "global" > > > meetings anymore. But that they do like (or don't care about) the > > > infrastructure that GNHLUG set up, and might continue to use it - > > > especially when one finds a "big name" to come speak. Sorta like BLU, > > > SwANH, and GNSEG do with GNHLUG. > > > > I suppose I should keep quiet because I have not helped out as I should > > and the current state is the result of people like me not doing anything > > to help GNHLUG and Centralug grow. However, talk is cheap. > > Good. You're not keeping quiet! Talk may be cheap, but it "gets the > juices going". > > I believe you have your gripes with the group - considering all the > "waffling" we've done on the "formalization" of the group. Which is > something I'm not opposed to, but I am opposed to asking for fees from > "members" to support the "formalization". We have the paperwork complete, and I am willing to donate the $25 filing fee -- but I haven't done it yet because I've seen a complete vacuum in people coming forward to help do things with the group. Case in point: I'm now doing the public library project all by myself, because it's something I believe it, and because nobody stepped forward to help out. I'm now afraid that if I act as a leader, I'll end up doing all the work. The reason for formalizing was not to collect dues, it was to give a tax beneficial structure for an active group to do some good things for the community and our members. But if we're not doing anything, or if only a few people are doing things, it just doesn't make sense. > And I'm opposed to committing my time when income is becoming scarce, > and potential customers/employers are demanding more commitment without > compensation. > > Seems to me, we just need someone to "take charge" and do it - if we > don't like it, then we can leave. Sorta like what maddog did back in the > early days - when things were exciting. Do what? I wanted us to get out and do some good things for Linux and ourselves, but failed to get anyone to help out. Sigh. See what I mean? > --Bruce -- Rob Lembree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JumpShift, LLC ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 08:26, Ed Lawson wrote: > On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 > Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'd like to suggest that the groups have created a comfortable > > structure and that they feel they don't need Quarterly "global" > > meetings anymore. But that they do like (or don't care about) the > > infrastructure that GNHLUG set up, and might continue to use it - > > especially when one finds a "big name" to come speak. Sorta like BLU, > > SwANH, and GNSEG do with GNHLUG. > > I suppose I should keep quiet because I have not helped out as I should > and the current state is the result of people like me not doing anything > to help GNHLUG and Centralug grow. However, talk is cheap. Good. You're not keeping quiet! Talk may be cheap, but it "gets the juices going". I believe you have your gripes with the group - considering all the "waffling" we've done on the "formalization" of the group. Which is something I'm not opposed to, but I am opposed to asking for fees from "members" to support the "formalization". And I'm opposed to committing my time when income is becoming scarce, and potential customers/employers are demanding more commitment without compensation. Seems to me, we just need someone to "take charge" and do it - if we don't like it, then we can leave. Sorta like what maddog did back in the early days - when things were exciting. --Bruce signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Centralug] Re: [Gnhlug-org] moving on
On 27 Jan 2004 22:13:06 -0500 Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'd like to suggest that the groups have created a comfortable > structure and that they feel they don't need Quarterly "global" > meetings anymore. But that they do like (or don't care about) the > infrastructure that GNHLUG set up, and might continue to use it - > especially when one finds a "big name" to come speak. Sorta like BLU, > SwANH, and GNSEG do with GNHLUG. I suppose I should keep quiet because I have not helped out as I should and the current state is the result of people like me not doing anything to help GNHLUG and Centralug grow. However, talk is cheap. While others know the history far better than I, it seems to me that historically, GNHLUG had as its base meetings in Durham and Nashua. that is where the focus had been and where the meetings were held including the "major" meetings. With the increased interest in Linux, more people became attendees, more people wanted meetings of a more local nature, and GNHLUG, to the extent it was anything other than loose collection of people with common interest, decided to create local groups under its umbrella. Some of those have done better than others and I find myself trying to attend local meetings more than the Nashua larger group meetings. For whatever reason it seems to me the Nashua and to some extent the Durham group have reassumed the role of hosting the major meetings. The other local groups to what they can do. The reality, it seems to me, is that without a structure to maintain continuity and persons to be responsible for the organization, GNHLUG and the local groups will forever be informal and hit or miss. I do not suggest this is bad or by this make a qualitative statement. It is a quantitative statement. It might even be best given the time and energy that the participants can bring to the organization. What we do not want, I suggest, is a situation in which good people burn out beating their heads against the wall. Something that has happened more than once and for which I accept my share of the responsibility. The real question is what should GNHLUG be and who is GNHLUG and who get s to decide the who,what, when, where, why, and how of GNHLUG. Until this is defined and we have a group of people with the time and energy to work toward that common goal, GNHLUG and the sub groups will continue as they have been, which may well be just fine. I believe there has never been agreement on that, but I believe there has been a tacit agreement that the less organization the better and the more informal the better. I suppose one could question whether the way a loose collection of hobbyists and activists tend to associate is a good way to promote Linux and OSS now give its higher public visibility. For me, the task and the small segment of the world where I might be able to make an impact is to assist the operation of the Centralug and to support the larger meetings held in Nashua and Durham when I can as the talks from national figures and the "Chrismas" meeting have always been events I looked forward to. Ed Lawson ___ Gnhlug-org mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-org
