[Goanet]Some explanations about caste structure in Goa
ARCHIVES ON THIS SUBJECT RE-VISITED: colaco.net/ The Caste System of India ... A curious oxymoron is the presence and practice of the caste system among the Roman Catholics of Goa and Mangalore. For centuries ... www.colaco.net/1/caste.h CASTE STRUCTURE http://www.webindia123.com/goa/people/caste.htm In Goa, the Bamonn or the Brahmins belonged to the originally priestly class taking upon other occupations like agriculture, trade and commerce (merchants), gold smithy etc. The Chaddho or the Kshatriyas were the noblemen, warriors and related soldiery taking up commercial avocations also. The Vaishya-Vanis were engaged in trade and among them were the 'shetts' or goldsmiths pursuing the craft of gold and gold ornaments. The Sudir or the Sudras were the workers and agricultural labourers engaged in the servicing professions. The Gavddi or Kunnbi were the landless labourers, earlier dislodged by the above high castes and living in their own wards in the village. There were the Gauddo or Gaudde, probably the Vaishya counterparts in Goa of the neighbouring Karnataka's Gowda, as there is 'Gaud' found in the Canacona taluka of Goa on Karnataka's border. The caste structure in Goa was somewhat like pre-eminence in the social hierarchy based on the nobility of blood, very much resembling the idea of family nobility in the rest of India. All the castes or rather sub-castes or jatis like Saraswats, Karades, Chitpavans, Padhyes etc. among the various segments of the population of Goa, particularly the goldsmiths and some merchants probably, as seen from the surnames of members of communes purportedly all- Brahmin, were lumped into the Christian caste of Bamonn or Brahmin. The various groups among the Kshatriyas or locally known as Chaddho were mainly the noble and warrior class. Some of them engaged in the trading profession, known as Chatim, which was an occupational appellation common to Brahmins also. The caste appellation of Chaddho gradually fell into disuse. Later among the Hindus of this caste in Goa who did not embrace Christianity began preferring the appellation of Maratha. The Marathas and Vanis were incorporated into the Christian caste of Chaddho . Those of the Vaishya-Vani caste men who could not get themselves merged as Christian Bamonn or Chaddho, appear as Gauddo in place in Bardez Taluka of Goa, among Christians and those among the Hindu remnants of this caste in the present Canacona taluka etc. Gauddo caste among Christians is treated as one of the three high castes. It is believed that large number of Vaishya-Vanis emigrated to the adjoining district of Sindhudurg in Maharashtra. Their descendants trace their origin to Goa and the flight of their ancestors at the time of the conversion fever. The Christian counterpart of the Hindu Vani is the Gauddo Christian caste. The goldsmiths call themselves 'Daivednya Brahmins' and are known in Goa as 'Shetti'. they were put into the Christian caste of Sudir or Sudras, which is a lower caste. They did not get into the caste deemed superior because they were known as 'Panchal' or the artisan group of castes. The aboriginal stock in Goa is known as the 'Gavddi', is a higher caste. The Christian convert of the Gavdi aboriginal was termed as Kunbi. The Kunbis are found in large number in the Salcete taluka than in any other taluka of Goa. At the time of the conversions carried out by the Portuguese missionaries, there were untouchables like the 'Mahara' and Chambars, who were converted to Christianity. They are found in Chandor village. Chambars have later merged with the Sudras among Christians. Bamonn and Chaddho are the two advanced castes among the Hindus in Goa. They continued to attach their caste to the Christian names and surnames even after conversion. The first mass baptisms or conversions to Christianity were effected in the two prominent villages in the vicinity of the then city of Goa, Divar Island and Carambolim villages, the first of the Bamonn and the second of the Chaddho. The majority of the total number of village communes converted to Christianity belonged to the two high castes. The priests in the Goan community should be recruited from the Bamonn and Chaddho. At some places the Christian name, is mentioned along with the old Hindu name while at others the Christian name is mentioned with the person's father name in the Hindu original or in case of the father being a Hindu. The surnames of Poi, Kamat or Vamotim, Desai Kudav, Naik, Prabhu or Porbu etc. are common to both the high castes of Bamonn and Chaddho. Christian Bahmonns and Chaddhos are the two leading rival classes among the Goan's. The continued maintenance of the caste system among the Christians in Goa is attributed to the mass conversions of entire villages, as a result of which the religious complexion of the whole village was given a new coat of Christianity without affecting its age-old social
Re: [Goanet] Voice Of The Exploited
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have NO PROBLEM with reporting facts. I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fiction. (aka called docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations to the facts. My PHILOSOPHY: Think twice before one does harm someone else. Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself Hope that clarifies my position. That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you mean you have a problem with fiction which is presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact, which is rightly presented as fiction. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet]Re: ZATHI ANI KATHI GOEMKARAM MODEM - Casta in Damao
Any castiologist could point towards the caste system in Damao. Or do they have one? People from Damao have origins in Goa innit? If they do not have a casta, how did it disappear? B. Colaco --- ^^ www.goa-world.com ^^ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re: ZATHI ANI KATHI GOEMKARAM MODEM Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Secret of LCC JetBlue's Success
From JetBlue Leader Wins Jannus Award By TED JACKOVICS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Published: Mar 2, 2005 http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBM92XUS5E.html .. ... ... .. ... ... After developing and selling the e-ticketing system called Open Skies to Hewlett Packard in 1999, [David] Neeleman obtained $130 million in capital funding from Soros, Weston Presidio Capital and Chase Capital to start JetBlue, a whimsical name the fledgling airline's staff created when it sat down to decide on a brand and asked ``Why not JetBlue?'' Neeleman's breakthrough strategy was to place the airline's base at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport. JFK was underutilized for domestic flights because competitors persisted in scheduling from congested Newark and LaGuardia airports. That provided JetBlue instant New York exposure. The airline has since made inroads with service at LaGuardia that business people favor because of its proximity to Manhattan. .. ... ... .. ... ... -- The lesson for Goa is that civilian flights at Dabolim should not be curtailed, Mopa should be gradually built up as well and connectivity by road, rail and perhaps even air between Dabolim and Mopa should be steadily improved to enable all the people of Goa to benefit from the State's aviation infrastructure.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify thems
Senhor Gouveia, In my childhood I lived in a Animal Farm. So it was social thinking from dawn to dusk. And when I got married there was no question of casta. I got married to Ms. Intelligence and Beautiful. I guess you Mumbai guys are more into this casta thingy innit? I have learnt more on the casta on the net than in Goa. B. Colaco --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bernardo, You must have led a sheltered childhood. Of course caste was not openly discussed because it is kept in the closet during most normal discourse. However, ask your Dad or some other relative of his age about marriages and matchmaking, when this issue comes out in full force among those who believe in it. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Mumbai Catholics prefer to go abroad
The Catholic community in Mumbai has witnessed a strong migration to the West in recent times. According to immigration facilitation centres in the city, of the 15-20 people that walk into their offices every day to make inquiries on immigration, at least half belong to the Catholic community. USA is no longer a hot favourite. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are the new destinations. Kishore Sadrangani, who runs NZ Connexions, an immigration facilitation centre, confirmed that Catholics ranked high on the list of immigrants. The reason, said Sadrangani, is probably because they feel at home abroad. Read the rest of the article @ http://ww1.mid-day.com/news/city/2005/march/104775.htm --- Goanet - http://www.goanet.org - Goa's premier mailing list is 10 years old
[Goanet]RE: Goans and caste
Gabriel de Figueiredo Hi Gabriel, I fully concur with your post. That's the way I was taught and brought up by my family, and my village in Goa and in my Catholic education in Goa and in Bombay. So I do not know where these guys come up with blanket statements. Of course there are going to be the odd-balls, as in any society, that don't have manners and etiquette. But to brand a community and / or institution for casteism is 'just off the top'! And some are confusing individuals who are ignorant and impolite as casteists. Well these folks are inconsiderate and boorish TOWARDS THEIR OWN CASTE members be they upper or lower. I like the title they have given themselves - Anti-Casteist. So what are the rest of us? Pro-Casteist? As some audaciously pigeon-hole us! Can you or someone elucidate what is meant by varying grades of Bamons (or any other caste)? To me one is or one is not! Does the term suggest like varying shades of pompousness? :=)) Regards, Gilbert
[Goanet]Caste and marriage
Folks, After listening to the debate here, I think the vestiges of the caste system is actually a good thing. It allows for young women to separate the men from the boys. Surely, the young men who tell their sweethearts that they need to consult their daddy and mummy in order to get married, are going to remain a bachelors forever? Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
RE: [Goanet] Small Mercies!
Tony Correia-Afonso, It appears that you are refusing neither to withdraw nor to re-phrase your statement. I believe that there is good in each and every person. Do you find any good in politicians so-called 'set of thieves'? Are we not any better than other States of India? Regards, Cip Fernandes -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 03 March 2005 23:13 Cip Fernandes wrote in response to my posting on the subject: Do you really think this sort of language is appropriate? Could you please re-phrase it? Dear Cip: When Churchill called a fellow-member of Parliament (I think it was Labour's Aneurin Bevan) a Liar, he was pulled up by the Speaker and asked to re-phrase his statement - which he obliged by accusing Bevan of being guilty of a terminological inexactitude! Perhaps you could suggest an appropriate euphemism to meet the requirements in this case! ---Tony. -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01 March 2005 22:47 We are indeed fortunate. There are millions of people around the world living under tyranical regimes who have no choice about the people who rule over them. We at least have a choice about which set of thieves to pick to rule over us! ---Tony Correia-Afonso.
RE: [Goanet] Death of the Caste System -- Carlos
Well said Carlos! the caste system will die fairly soon I agree with Carlos that the so-called caste system among some fake Goan Catholics, including some priests will perish soon as it has no foundation whatsoever. The so-called Catholic caste system is just a superiority complex illusion of fake Goan Catholics consisting of superstructure of unseen walls floating with no foundation. Who can preserve this illusion, so-called Catholic caste system? ...the local Catholic Bishop or the Pope? ..there is no foundation neither in Goa nor in Rome for this illusion, the so-called Catholic caste system. Further, the local Goa Bishop is INCAPABLE of even controlling few EVIL priests (I repeat 'few EVIL priests') that exist in Goa Diocese. There are mass Financial irregularities going on in the few Goan Parishes benefiting these few EVIL Parish Priests in Lacs of Rupees. If any Goanetter wants a proof of my above statement, I can do so. Please send me an private email. Gautama Buddha, born as Hindu in 560 BC, founded a religion based on sound pure spiritual principles not only without any Caste System but also without a God, benefiting all Human Beings on this planet. In addition, Gautama Buddha also created an opportunity to Hindus as well as others to join Budhism leaving their caste system behind them. There may be few Goanetters who know and also few who think they know everything about this illusion, the so-called Catholic caste system. May I request them to keep their knowledge to themselves as it has no value neither now nor in the future. We need to move on in life and help the needy if we can. No superstructure can stand on a weak foundation for long, it may stand beyond our life time. Cip Fernandes UK -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 03 March 2005 21:36 Death of the caste system. Whether you like it or not, I feel that the caste system will die fairly soon, whether people like it or not. But how? If Gautama Buddha, Guru Nanak, Ramchandra, Tulsidas and Swami Vivekanda (and others) could not reform it or eradicate it, what will kill it off now? The simple answer - money. Money changes everything, never underestimate its power. Money is the new religion. In the olden days, the pursuit of wealth was seen as impure, therefore there was no real need to be rich. They had respect, that's all that mattered. The explosion of consumer goods like DVD players, wide screen TVs, Cars etc has made India into a advertising man's heaven. Money is become the new God and in this religion, what matters is your talent and intelligence, not where you're born. Over time, this has meant that the caste system will fall apart as Indian society becomes a place where status depends more on money than your surname. Whether that's a good thing or not, that's debatable. Caste system might be replaced with a Class system, the rich and the poor, or white collared and blue collard and so on. We will then have debates on why the poor are not getting free schooling or jobs. Should we give them free lunch or should we look for talent? There will be people who will say Free lunch will not work if India has to succeed. Look at Soviet Union or Nehrus socialism. Others will say Rob Peter and give Paul. Or they may debates on why the rich are not getting married with the poor. Or we might even debate about the skin color? World is not fair and will never be. Carlos
[Goanet]King of Political Songs!
William de Curtorim..who is also called 'King of Political songs' on the Konkani stage has last year sung two songs...on Goan Politics...the first one being 'Churchill Jiklo' and Rostear Jardinam' which are available on Manfa Music's Menino De Bandar's audio casette 'Tin Medali'. I would like to say ...Xabbas William you have done it once again and as Goan I would like to salute you for the bold words in your songs on the state of Goan Politics on the Konkani stage... You were indeed right when you released your 14th vol...Ho Dance Kolvontacho? The present day Goan politics is nothing but ' Ho dance Kolvontacho. In his latest song Churchill Jiklo, William has this to say: Goeamchi ambott tik koddi, Goeamchea Parrekara tuca sodanch meuchinam, Sardinachea kanant tel ghatlam, Churchill brothersamchea ghalunk meuchem nam, Panch vorsam pasun Bab Churchill Alemao thoim Delhi Parlamentan tum raucho nam Benaulim election jikon, chief minister zalea bogor rauchonam... He further says... Perpet Succor Maim, Argam tuca, party kobar keli tumvem dhormacher pez addpachi and in the other song he says: Panch mhoinea modem BJPcho Government goeam podta, Williamacho ugddas koreai, Congresa thaim magtam, chief Minister zaunk zogoddta temvui soddeai... Indeed your words have really come trueBut I would say 'Goeamcho Saib Goeam astona, amkam lagpacho na re konn' Eddie Verdes Chinchinim/Jeddah/KSA
[Goanet]NEWS: Jharkhand lessons for Goa, Bihar
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=65808 Jharkhand lessons for Goa, Bihar Buta Singh will make sure he gets arithmetic right before taking any decision in Bihar NEERJA CHOWDHURY Posted online: Friday, March 04, 2005 at 0126 hours IST NEW DELHI, MARCH 3: As congress chief Sonia Gandhi seeks to distance herself from the unsavoury controversy over government formation in Jharkhand, the statement that she has always insisted on constitutional propriety is being seen not just as a damage-control exercise but also a signal that the Jharkhand-type of fiasco is not likely to be repeated in other states. The immediate impact of Sonia's statement will be felt both in Goa, where the Pratapsinh Rane government is slated to face a confidence vote on Friday, and in Bihar, where Laloo Yadav has been raring for Rabri Devi to be invited to form a government. ''The pro-tem Speaker in Goa will act as caretaker Speaker and is not likely to expel anyone or admit anyone,'' said a party leader monitoring the developments in Goa. Unless there are overnight resignations from BJP, Goa appears to be headed for President's Rule.
[Goanet]Casteeism et al............
As a proponent of this discussion of Caste, I am glad that we have had this discussion and given everyone on this forum an opportunity to air their views, deny their personal prejudices etc. etc. It would appear from the discussions that there are no casteeists among us, or if there are any, they are afraid to tell us why they consider themselves superior, if that is what casteeism is all about. We Goans are a prejudiced lot. But who isn't ? If there is any human being anywhere without some sort of prejudice, he must be a saint. Goans in East Africa established clubs, where some Goans were denied membership. I dont know if this was caste related or whether certain socio-economic classes were considered to be inferior. If I recall correctly, Goans of the tailor profession were looked down upon. I am not sure if they were denied membership in Goan clubs or whether they simply chose to associate only with others of their own profession, and formed Goan Tailoring societies, with their own social activities. Mangloreans were also considered non-Goans and were denied membership in Goan clubs. In keeping with the colonial attitude at that time, Goans looked down on Africans as merely servants. In the old days, most of the Africans had not received a western education and had not achieved economic parity. So in part this may have been one of social status. The pecking order, as I recall was, the Europeans, then Goans (with their own internal pecking order), then other Indians/Asians and then Africans. While we indulge in self-flagellation about our prejudices, we must acknowledge that wherever there are humans, one finds prejudices. As humans, we want our progeny to resemble us and therefore are afraid to allow our sons and daughters to marry into another race. Now that most of us have had an opportunity to express our views on caste, perhaps it is time to move on to other topics as the discussion of caste is becoming nauseating. Let us become more Goa-centric in our discussions. We all profess our love for Goa, and other than coming down to Goa from foreign lands, eating Xitt-codi, Chorisao and imbibing caju feni, what are we doing for Goa and Goans ? Let the brick bats fly on this thread... Vivian
[Goanet]Goanet News Bytes * March 03-04, 2005 * Matanhy faces disqualification, session today
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G o a n e t - N e w s B y t e s MARCH 03-04, 2005 DATELINE: GOA
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o UGDP Matanhy Saldanha's disqualification case comes up Friday, Mar 04.
o Rane seeks confidence vote later today, Friday, in an evenly
divided Goa assembly.
o Whips have been issued by the UGDP asking its lone MLA,
Matanhy Saldanha, to back the confidence vote.
o Tight security expected in the Goa assembly. Buses and mini-buses
unlikely to be allowed before the gates.
o BJP questions role to be played by pro-tem Speaker. Parrikar argues
that pro-tem Speaker's job is to help elect the new speaker, nothing else.
o No application received yet to review Filipe Neri's disqualification,
says pro-tem Speaker Sardinha.
o Crucial paper from Filipe Neri's disqualification file missing,
says Sardinha.
o Deputy CM Wilfred de Souza promises to solve Vasco's coal pollution
issue by end-May 2005.
GOMANTAK TIMES TELLS IT BLUNTLY: Virtually minutes after former
Speaker Vishwas Satarkar read out his resignation from a clumsy
handwritten note and adjourned the Goa Assembly sine die, he
quietly took home with him a sensitive and crucial file on which
the future of the Rane-led government hinges -- the deputy chief
minister Felipe Neri Rodrigues' disqualification case.
It now transpired that Satarkar kept this file with him for close
to 44 hours after he ceased to be the Speaker. It was only after
his successor, interim Speaker Francisco Sardinha announced that
the file was missing and a police complaint was lodged that
Satarkar rushed to the Assembly on Wednesday morning and returned
the file to Secretary (Legislature) S B Narvekar.(GT)
Earlier headlines:
o Disqualification plea filed against Matanhy. (NT)
o Filipe Neri resigns as minister. (Governor Jamir
had urged CM Rane to divest him of his ministership
as he had been disqualified from the assembly).
o BJP leaders Sadanand Shet Tanavade and Satish Dhond
and partyworker Rajendra Janu were summoned by the
police in connection with the forgery case filed
by Filipe Neri Rodrigues. All three obtained
ad-interim bail from the court. (NT)
o Pre-Emergency days are back, claims Parrikar. Says
Congress making blatant use of power to install
its own governments in the state. He accused Rane
of running a 'police raj'. (NT)
o Satarkar returns Filipe Neri's file; crucial membership
form carrying the allegedly forged signature of Rodrigues
is missing. Satarkar returned the file to the legsiature
secretary Sudin Narvekar, and the latter communicated to
the Porvorim police that the file had been found. Satarkar
told the media he had kept the file with him for the last
15 days to keep it very safe. (NT)
o POLICE TRANSFER: Deputy IGP Muktesh Chander has been transferred
to Delhi, designated as Additional Resident Commissioner of
of Police at Goa Sadan, New Delhi! (NT)
o PRINCE JACOB Moves from tiatr to films, with the launch of the
shooting of his Konkani film Padri. The cast includes himself,
Humbert, Annie Quadros, Diana, Thappan Acharya, Dr Kiran
Kerkar, Roseferns, John D'Silva, Justino and Aruna Fernandes
of Mangalore. He said a lot of care has been taken over the
script, so the Konkani-speaking people from the Konkan region
would understand the script, and that the film would appeal to
a larger audience. The film is to be released by the first week
of May. Lyrics and scores are to be set by the veteran
Wilfy Remembus of Mangalore. (H)
o KALA ACADEMY advertises for lecturer in voice (solo singing)
one post, and teacher in piano, two posts. Pay scale starts at
Rs 8000 and Rs 5500 respectively.
-
VILLAGE GOA
-
o BAMBOLIM's Goa Medical College is to get alterations to its
first floor, foyer block, to accomodate a HIV/AIDS
counselling centre.
o DIVAR tender for construction of end block and repair to the ramp at
its and Ribandar's old ramp. Also other tenders for ramps/blocks
at MADKAI, RACHOL, ADAN-MARCAIN, POMBURPA, VOLVOI-SURLA and MAINA,
[Goanet]PRINCE JACOB OPEN HIS EYE AFTER CONGRESS IN POWER TO DO A Great FLIM ?
Dear Goans, We was very happy that Prince Jacob got up from the Sleep to pull out a film PADRI when he was talking against VCD during the BJP was in power, he said to BJP CM that today people demand is only Tiatr and not VCD so after a released of many tiatr on VCD, we see that Jacob had open this eye that people are also 100% demand on VCD too. so my heart was very happy that Jacob had think of each Goan to remember his work so nothing more to say i wish him all the Best and this work of the Film must stay alive as we see Hindi film, every year the Director must pull out a new Film and keep our mother tongue alive and what even Prince Jacob Plan that the Wonderful Work and i wish each and every people will Support Prince Jacob in future work, i Prayer to God that all our Dream of Konkani tiatr Artists may come TRUE. With the help of Goa and Central Government must help us in our Need. Your Fellow Goan Stephen Fernandes MUSCAT
[Goanet]Re: ZATHI ANI KATHI GOEMKARAM MODEM
Dear Sanny, Thanks a lots as you had listen my word GoD Blessyou and your good work you had translated in english. your fellow Goan Stephen Muscat
[Goanet]Murder of Democracy
Video Forum: March Screening On Saturday, 5th March 2004, at 4.00 p.m. we will be having the sixth screening under the aegis of the video forum. Besides the screening of Goa Freedom Struggle we will also be showing the Murder of Democracy an audio- visual proof of the farce at the Legislative Assembly of Goa during the confidence vote on February 2nd 2005. The venue will be the same: Dominican Training Centre (DTC) For further details see below. To reach the DTC, take the Mapusa-Aldona route. Soon after the Sopier bus stop in Moira, on the left you will see a black board with white lettering Dominican Training Centre. Turn left here and go straight along for about 600 metres, past St. Xavier's School. The DTC is a cream- coloured building on the right. - For further information on the Video Forum contact Prakash Lohale, O.P., at the above tel. no. or at email [EMAIL PROTECTED], or Vidyadhar Gadgil at [EMAIL PROTECTED] - DTC - Training For Change --- Dominican Training Center (DTC) 350 Pirazona, Moira. Bardez. Goa. 403507. India. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 91-0832-2470398 --- Documentation + Training + Communication
[Goanet]Open Wells, harvesting water
What Fred says is right about open wells and rain water harvesting. It also costs more to dig a well in Goa. 3,700/-a mtr for a cast ring type using bamboo instead of steel for the reinforcement for a 2mtr dia well. But I think it is worth it considering the state of the public water supply. I was told that bore wells are not suited for the sandy strata in Goa -they clog up with silt and fail in a couple of years. However as Fred has pointed out we are not doing enough to protect the traditional sources of water. Very often the wells are contaminated by ill sited leaking septic tanks or drain water. Pascal
RE: [Goanet] Small Mercies!
Cip Fernandes wrote in response to my posting on the subject: Do you really think this sort of language is appropriate? Could you please re-phrase it? Dear Cip: When Churchill called a fellow-member of Parliament (I think it was Labour's Aneurin Bevan) a Liar, he was pulled up by the Speaker and asked to re-phrase his statement - which he obliged by accusing Bevan of being guilty of a terminological inexactitude! Perhaps you could suggest an appropriate euphemism to meet the requirements in this case! ---Tony. -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01 March 2005 22:47 We are indeed fortunate. There are millions of people around the world living under tyranical regimes who have no choice about the people who rule over them. We at least have a choice about which set of thieves to pick to rule over us! ---Tony Correia-Afonso.
[Goanet]RE: Voice Of The Exploited
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting the facts. I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fictionalized facts. (aka called docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations of the facts. My PHILOSOPHY: Think twice before one does harm to someone else. Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself Hope that clarifies my position. GL Santosh Helekar To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on factual situations concerning living individuals and existing institutions no different from racist bigots? That is why we do not see KKK in USA. My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite regularly. Just last month there were news reports about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago. I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction writing should not be based on factual situations involving living individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not. I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet]Death of the Caste System -- Carlos
Death of the caste system. Whether you like it or not, I feel that the caste system will die fairly soon, whether people like it or not. But how? If Gautama Buddha, Guru Nanak, Ramchandra, Tulsidas and Swami Vivekanda (and others) could not reform it or eradicate it, what will kill it off now? The simple answer - money. Money changes everything, never underestimate its power. Money is the new religion. In the olden days, the pursuit of wealth was seen as impure, therefore there was no real need to be rich. They had respect, that's all that mattered. The explosion of consumer goods like DVD players, wide screen TVs, Cars etc has made India into a advertising man's heaven. Money is become the new God and in this religion, what matters is your talent and intelligence, not where you're born. Over time, this has meant that the caste system will fall apart as Indian society becomes a place where status depends more on money than your surname. Whether that's a good thing or not, that's debatable. Caste system might be replaced with a Class system, the rich and the poor, or white collared and blue collard and so on. We will then have debates on why the poor are not getting free schooling or jobs. Should we give them free lunch or should we look for talent? There will be people who will say Free lunch will not work if India has to succeed. Look at Soviet Union or Nehrus socialism. Others will say Rob Peter and give Paul. Or they may debates on why the rich are not getting married with the poor. Or we might even debate about the skin color? World is not fair and will never be. Carlos
[Goanet]Jittery BJP!
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13685565 BJP questions role of pro tem Speaker Thursday, 03 March , 2005, 22:02 Panaji: A day ahead of the confidence vote by the Pratapsinh Rane government, the BJP on Thursday questioned the role of pro tem Speaker. The party said that a speaker not elected by the House could not conduct a vote of confidence or entertain any petition before him. Pro tem Speaker Fransico Sardinha, however, said he had been appointed as a Speaker by the Governor for the purpose of a floor test. -- Cheers, Gabe Menezes. London, England
[Goanet]Re: Red Eye Day
--- Cecil Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Evening we went to Inox for the movie Black. A tear-jerker story about a blind-deaf girl and her teacher. Superb performances by Rani Mukherjee and Amitabh Bhachan. Everyone had tears in their eyes during and after the movie. I pitied the guy in the corner with his girlfriend. For sure nothing romantic was possible with her in tears throughout. Cecil I was also in the theater, you did not see me due to the dim lighting. I met the guy in the corner with his girlfriend after the show and asked him why he was crying. He said it had nothing to do with the movie but he was a member of Goanet and was struggling with Gilbert's illogic which had brought him to tears. Don't worry I comforted him, that's 65% of Goanet. I asked the girlfriend what about the movie made her cry. Nothing she said. She is also a member of Goanet and was crying because her Uncle Tio asked her this week the caste of her boyfriend. What does that have to do with romance she replied. Her cousin Anthony interrupted saying because she is a Catholic and the boyfriend is a Hindu, the boyfriend should stay out of this discussion. However, after marriage if he was personally transformed (i.e. became a Catholic), he could be buried alongside her and display his caste on the tombstone. Her third-cousin Mario, disappointed that he could not drive a stake in the heart of the caste system, was pleased he had brought the couple together and introduced them after the girlfriend had to break-off her earlier engagement to his second-cousin due to caste incompatibility. This is Mario's exact quote I was able to drive a stake in the their romantic hearts and kindled the fire of passion. Some people did not understand what he said. Gilbert tried to explain what Mario said and, determined to stay on thread, wrote about the 10 commandments. Without the 10 commandments, there would be no movie 'SINS', Gilbert concluded. 14 emails later, no one still understood what he said. In his 15th email, he clarified everything and asked Cornel once again what 'good deeds' he had done for Goan immigrants in the UK while being silent on his own 'good deeds' with new immigrants. In his 16th email, he demanded facts/research to back up any of Cornel's claims while simultaneously denying them as it showed that Cornel did more than the local Catholic Church. No one is better than the Catholic Church Gilbert added, not even those Judas-like priests and nuns who correspond with George. So now you know the truth. Regards, George
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
After reading Mario Goveia's response to Bernado, I cannot resist sharing the core of a private e-mail message I received with reference to the caste discussion on the goanet. Is it perhaps driving a stake deep into the heart of caste debate? don´t you believe this hanky-panky anti-caste campaign. They are not dying for Christian love. Can't see it from from their language and rancorous tone. Their (charde) interest / frustration seems to lie in the fact that democracy or gulf has brought to many of them enough education and money to their pockets, but this blessed caste system still remains a big hurdle to get the bamonn girls. They see even Hindus getting them, but not they --- Mario Goveia Thu, 03 Mar 2005 04:42:40 -0800 Bernardo, You must have led a sheltered childhood. Of course caste was not openly discussed because it is kept in the closet during most normal discourse. However, ask your Dad or some other relative of his age about marriages and matchmaking, when this issue comes out in full force among those who believe in it.
[Goanet]Sudhir Narvekar's fault!
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13685558 Crucial document missing: Goa pro tem Speaker Thursday, 03 March , 2005, 21:04 Panaji: Pro-term Speaker of the Goa Assembly Francisco Sardinha on Thursday said a crucial document was missing from the file regarding the disqualification of independent MLA Filipe Neri Rodrigues, handed over by former speaker Vishwas Satarkar. The original membership form, on the basis of which it was determined that Neri was a member of the BJP, is missing. I have looked through the file and it is not there, Sardinha told reporters. Satarkar, however, denied any knowledge of the document, saying he handed over the complete file to legislature secretary Sudhir Narvekar on Wednesday. Comment: He denied any knowledge of the document? Then he handed the entire complete file to the legislature secretary! Without the original there can be no reason to bar Felipe Neri from the House - an injunction must be sought out fast! or Sardinha must stay the expulsion order, pending a High Court order. -- Cheers, Gabe Menezes. London, England
[Goanet]Red Eye Day
Today has been a Red Eye Day for myself and Beatrice. Morning we spent at the Government Swimming Pool (Membership Rs. 150/- a month). Both of us are always red eyed after swimming. It's not actually swimming but a mixture of walking, wading, floating, dog paddling, free style and who-can-keep-breath-longer-underwater competitions. Evening we went to Inox for the movie Black. A tear-jerker story about a blind-deaf girl and her teacher. Superb performances by Rani Mukherjee and Amitabh Bhachan. Everyone had tears in their eyes during and after the movie. I pitied the guy in the corner with his girlfriend. For sure nothing romantic was possible with her in tears throughout. Cheers and good night! Cecil da Blogger
[Goanet][Fwd: Murder of Democracy]
Forwarded Message From: DOMINICAN TRAINING CENTRE - MORIA GOA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Murder of Democracy Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:46:53 +0530 Video Forum: March Screening On Saturday, 5th March 2004, at 4.00 p.m. we will be having the sixth screening under the aegis of the video forum. Besides the screening of Goa Freedom Struggle we will also be showing the Murder of Democracy an audio-visual proof of the farce at the Legislative Assembly of Goa during the confidence vote on February 2nd 2005. The venue will be the same: Dominican Training Centre (DTC) For further details see below. To reach the DTC, take the Mapusa-Aldona route. Soon after the Sopier bus stop in Moira, on the left you will see a black board with white lettering Dominican Training Centre. Turn left here and go straight along for about 600 metres, past St. Xavier's School. The DTC is a cream-coloured building on the right. - For further information on the Video Forum contact Prakash Lohale, O.P., at the above tel. no. or at email [EMAIL PROTECTED], or Vidyadhar Gadgil at [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- DTC - Training For Change --- Dominican Training Center (DTC) 350 Pirazona, Moira. Bardez. Goa. 403507. India. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 91-0832-2470398 --- Documentation + Training + Communication -- Question everything - Karl Marx
[Goanet]Needy Goans
Hi Gilbert, Re your specific question to me on help to needy Goans in London, I can't see the relevance at all to the ongoing debate on caste. However, as you are obviously dying to know, I can tell that I have been, among other associations, in the Goan Association as an editor with a last publication of forty-eight A4 pages, and while also in the welfare section, was able to help to seek accommodation for newcomers, and even house people in my own premises, briefly, as I was single then, and to obtain warm clothing for them from charity shops. In terms of generally helping people to adjust to a totally new environment with many hurdles to cross, I provided much advice/help on the education of children from primary school to university. Additionally, help in writing letters to solicitors and immigration bodies, help in obtaining bank accounts and in obtaining council housing and also mortgages, help in registering for GP services, help in sorting out pension transfers from East Africa, and lots and lots of job references, particularly for old acquaintances who badly needed references from here and fast. As I had a car I was sometimes the taxi driver collecting new/unknown people from the airport and even taking people home when they were without personal transport for some late return journeys from Goan socials, and help for people moving from premises with their luggage. Mind you, the roads were relatively empty in the 1960s and early 1970s compared to now and petrol was incredibly cheap to worry about any car journey. One was also young with lots of energy, and more idealistic too! Indeed I feel sure that our earliest Goans in places like Toronto and Sydney did likewise. The most challenging situation for many parents was to do with trying to obtain suitable secondary school places for their children in a very competitive situation and I often accompanied parents and their children to meet senior 'difficult and snooty' education officers and spoke at appeals of course. Also getting a first job befitting qualifications was a major problem when unemployment was high. At no time did I ever ask about the social background of people because it did not matter at all. In times of crises, especially, all tend to be at the same level irrespective of where they might have been before. There were some acute situations needing much help such as the exodus in 1968 from Kenya and in 1972 from Uganda. In the case of the Ugandan Asians, they were located in 'holding camps' a long way from where I lived, and as a volunteer I offered advisory help and met several people there including Goans. I could not have imagined that anybody would ever find it necessary to ask me for such information and I had to try and remember/recall some of the above as it was all done quietly. But I repeat, Gilbert, how this has anything to do with caste I do not know but I will leave it to your fertile imagination! More than anything else, if this is not clear by now, I reiterate that I reject the existence of caste in its entirety, and particularly intensely, when people will insist on caste labelling under the guise of a geographical interest, and also, the utterly absurd recent suggestion of a personal caste declaration. Minimally, for me, caste is primitive and does not encompass the Christian teaching of love thy neighbour as thyself. Castes separate neighbours as lower and higher beings from birth and as an American you must know that caste belief rejects the central theme in your Constitution, taken from Enlightenment thought, that all men are born equal. Further, I do not agree at all with those who suggest dealing with caste across the board in all of India. This is a recipe for failure and thus, wittingly or unwittingly, a hidden agenda for the retention of caste. One battle at a time which is winnable, even if difficult, is good enough for me in a very long war! But as Confucius supposedly said, every (long) journey starts with the first step! However, I risk endless repetition on this theme and simply say Amen for now. Regards, Cornel DaCosta, London.
[Goanet]Re: ZATHI ANI KATHI GOEMKARAM MODEM
Hi Sanny, Thanks for your response and the clarification. I think you echo the desire and feelings of the vast-vast majority of Goans both in our cyber spaces and where ever we live. It is most unfortunate that a few have capitalized on our past differences instead of working for programs to bring us together and move forward in a shrinking and competitive world. It pains me to see they are some of our very educated and intelligent ganv-bhavs who are doing so and not some bhaile. Ironically the anti-casteists on this thread are showing the 'worst Bammon attitudes' to anybody who does not go along with their exact wording. Goans often find it easier to be a result of the past than a cause for the future. Mog assundi, Regards, GL Sanny Vaz: Respected Dr. Gilbert, With reference to your response please be informed that I am not a Anti-Casteist nor a Pro-Casteist I'm just like you trying to make the best of our present lives and help our fellow Goans of all Castes stop discriminating each other which is very hurting. As you know while coming into this earth we bring nothing and take nothing with us, but sadly and often, we live our short term with hatred and prejudice. Best Wishes to all. Sanny Vaz.
Re: [Goanet]response to Cornel
Basilio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Cornel: So be it. We fight battles in many different ways. I do not have the need to do battles to fit somebody's understanding of the battle. I do what I can to the best of my abilities, and not to meet anybody's expectation. If the way I choose to deal with the caste problem, does not satisfy you and for that matter anyone else, then so be it. Mario ruminates: Oh, what could have been!!! With all due respects to the original sage, All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to observe evil and then sit back and wait for the perpetrators to come to them for advice. Fat chance!
[Goanet]Your summary
Hi Bosco, By way of a correction to your post, please let's not steal Mario's thunder. The stake in the heart quote is definitely his and not mine. Regards, Cornel
[Goanet]Caste and exclusivity
Bosco poses an interesting question: +++ Suppose I told you, a particular friend(s) of yours had a casteist mindset, would you do as you suggest below - stop associating with them? Cecil: Very interesting. Firstly I would not take anyone's word about somebody else's casteist mindset. If I observed that a particular associate of mine was caste prejudiced I would definitely keep my distance from him. But then it's all relative and one cannot give a blanket reply. Example 1: I have a friend of mine who at first appearance appears absolutely casteist with his open proclamations of his and other people's castes. But he also is one of the most helpful people I have ever known and will go out of his way to help anyone - regardless of their caste. Now can we condemn this person as casteist? He just uses the labels but is not prejudiced or bigoted in his behavior towards a person of any caste. Example 2: We were once discussing matters of caste at a table and a middleaged (upper caste) man quite impressed us with his anti-caste views and open minded opinions. Someone abruptly asked him, Would you approve of your daughter marrying a maar?. He was shaken by the question and the delay in replying and the stuttering that followed told us a lot about his preach but don't practice values. -- Regarding membership to caste based clubs Bosco wrote: +++ Aren't you putting this a little too simply.there must be several hundred Goans who were scarred by being denied membership to the Jurassic Goan Clubs you mention.this has been an oft raised issue here on Goanet over several yearsif people keep mentioning thisit obviously affected some of them...probably something that you and I cannot relate too as we were not denied membership and probably can neither counsel them. Cecil: I agree I am not qualified to comment. I have not had first hand experience of the caste based clubs in East Africa. But let's talk about Clubs in general. You say some people were scarred by being denied membership. Are you serious? I don't join Club Nacional or Club Vasco de Gama here in Panjim because: 1) I don't think I can afford the fees (actually I don't have a clue what the fees are!). 2) I don't speak Portuguese like most of the members do. 3) I would not be comfortable with generations born and bred Ponjekars who have already formed cliques of their own. I don't join Club Gaspar Dias at Miramar because: 1) The fees are in the range of Rs. 40,000/- for Life Membership 2) I'm not a medium/big businessman or of good social standing like most of the members. 3) I don't play or fancy lawn tennis I don't join Saligao-Net because it is exclusively for Saligao people. Does it bother me that I cannot join these Clubs? Not at all. Do I condemn these clubs for being rather exclusionary and not making membership easily accessible to everyone? Not at all. I join the Aldona Institute where the fees are cheap and the company is all known and membership is freely available to absolutely anyone. Why should I regret not being able to be part of a circle if membership if that circle holds no allure or benefit for me? Caste, income, ethnicity, skin colour, education, religion... all these things will continue to define exclusionary circles. Rather than try to break into these circles isn't it better that we pity them for their co-sanguinity and define open, inviting circles of our own? Like GoaNet for example? What better way than this to cock a thumb at the old systems? --- Bosco: +++ What about people whose grandfather moved from village A to village B for economic or social reasons? If village A was higher in the social hierarchy would that automatically make the family appear from a lower caste once we met subsequent generations living in village B ? What about the reverse? Could one really predict their caste! NOT !! Cecil: An elderly Catholic gentleman from Bastora told me long back, In the South Goa village where my ancestors originally came from we were considered Chardos but here we are considered Sudhirs. I didn't pay it much attention at the time, because I was busy imbibing and enjoying his five year matured Caju Feni, but now that Bosco mentions it maybe it is true that caste changed if a family moved from one village to another. =
Re: [Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Avelino, Since you seem determined to continue on this approach, let me spell it out for you as there may be others out there like you. We are talking about the caste system in this thread, not all of society's ills. The people's mindset, power and affluence may be in play here, but the demon in our case is discrimination based on caste, as opposed to a person's personal behavior, achievements and attitude. 1. I start with the conviction that the caste system is diabolical and has caused incredible heartache and family conflict among Catholic Goans, especially when a child in the family wants to marry someone outside the caste. If you are unaware of this I really cannot help you. I have seen its destructiveness within and around my own extended family. 2. The long-term abolition is dependent on changing people's hearts and minds. Some people refer to this as education and prefer the gentle persuasive approach. I have no patience for that approach because this has gone on far too long, I am in the third quarter of my life, a cancer survivor, and I am anxious to change at least a few minds and plant a few seeds before I check out and try to talk St. Peter into letting me haunt a few people that need haunting. 3. Discussing the issue on open forums like Goanet makes people aware of the problem, sensitive to its destructiveness, and provides moral support to those who may be facing the problem currently, to know that there are people like me who detest this system as as unfair and eminently discriminatory as racism, and they can count on my moral and actual support. 4. When Catholic Goans bring up the topic in my presence I don't keep quiet on the grounds that it may upset them. I let them know in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is inherently wrong and at odds with Christianity. If I lose a friend over this I am quite prepared to dismiss that person as not the kind of friend I should be having. 5. I tend to use the rant and rave approach because it emphasizes my passion and seriousness, and I am hoping to embed deeply in their consciousness a deep-seated guilt that this system is all wrong in every which way and it is time to end it. --- D'Souza, Avelino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario, I wish you luck in your endeavor to get rid of the caste system. I am still at a loss to comprehend how you will be confronting this mammoth task. Is it really the caste system which is diabolical or the people's mindset, power and affluence?
[Goanet]RE: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
As I had written in response to Santosh / George, there may be politics of guilt, but guilt without repentance is of no great usefulness. And guilt followed by dispair could be disastrous, like tha case of biblical Judas who got his 30 pieces osf silver for betraying Jesus and hanged himself! Hence, I remain convinced that to feel the guilt one needs to publicly admit one's place in the evil system and feel sorry for his / her conscious or unconscious part in it! Charde incriminating bamoon, and sdhir incriminating bamonn and sudir, and outcastes incriminating them all, will not take us anywhere! Shadow-boxing that is going on though the Goanet debate is an exercise in futility. A charddo financing the studies (or adopting ) of some poor bamonn kid or other caste talents and vice-versa (just an example that could be extended to other sorts of assistance in needs) could help us make some dent in this system. Teotonio R. de Souza Cip wrote: .. It is really heartening to note that Mahanth Sudhir Pujari has initiated a process to undo the 75-year-old mistake and has decided to adopt 25 Dalit students on behalf of Janasthan Peeth. He would also bring up 50 children and educate them properly. Though very belated, at least Mahant Sudhir has made a beginning and this should be an eye-opener and also an example for others. It is unfortunate that even today the discrimination against the Dalits is rampant, notwithstanding a number of legislations protecting their rights and providing for penalties. It has been proven time and again that mere laws are not enough for social, political and economic empowerment of the Dalits. What is needed is a strong social movement to create a discrimination-free society. This is the message that Mahanth Sudhir has sent forward on behalf of his erring grandfather.
[Goanet]Draw of G.O.A Rolling Trophy held at Village Inn Restaurant (Kuwait)
The draw for the 12th edition of G.O.A Rolling Trophy being organized by Goan Overseas Association (Kuwait) was held at the Village Inn Restaurant on Wednesday, 2nd March 2005 at 7:30pm. This prestigious soccer tournament being organized under the auspices of KIFF and sponsored by Bassem International Trading Co. (Mr. Charles D'Sa) will commence on 1st April 2005. In the presence of Mr. Charles D'Sa (Managing Director, Bassem International Trading Co.) and his spouse, Mrs. Nora D'Sa, participating team officials, KIFF representatives and the managing committee of G.O.A, the draw was conducted by sports secretary, Mr. Clifford Fortes. Earlier, Mr. Raymond D'Sa the president of G.O.A welcomed the guests and hoped that the tournament would be played in the true spirit of the game. Mr. Charles D'Sa in his brief speech reiterated his commitment to promoting sports in the community and wished all the 14 participating teams good luck. Following is the tentative schedule of matches:- Group A : Navelim Y.C, Veterans United, Santos, Paradiso, United Friends Club, Viva Goa, Goa Maroons. Group B : Kerala Challengers, Curtorcares, CRC Chinchinim, United Goans, Bombay Boys, Rising Stars AVC Sports Club. Matches schedule:- No DateTimeGround Match First Round Matches 01 11 Mar 05 7:00am Ground B United Friends Club v/s Viva Goa 02 11 Mar 05 8:45am Ground B Bombay Boys v/s Rising Stars 03 01 Apr 05 6:45am Ground A Navelim Y.c v/s Veterans United 04 01 Apr 05 8:30am Ground A Santos v/s Paradiso 05 01 Apr 05 6:45am Ground B Kerala Challengers v/s Curtorcares 06 01 Apr 05 8:30am Ground B CRC Chinchinim v/s United Goans Quarter finals 07 08 Apr 05 6:45am Ground A GOA Maroons v/s winner of match 1 08 08 Apr 05 8:30am Ground A Winner of match 3 v/s winner of match 4 09 08 Apr 05 6:45am Ground B AVC Sports Club v/s Winner of match 2 10 08 Apr 05 8:30am Ground B Winner of match 5 v/s Winner of match 6 Semi finals 11 15 Apr 05 6:45am Ground A Winner of match 9 v/s Winner of match 10 12 15 Apr o5 8:30am Ground A Winner of match 7 v/s Winner of match 8 Finals 13 22 Apr 05 8:00am Ground A Winner of match 11 v/s Winner of match 12 Report compiled by: Julio Cardoso
Re: [Goanet] Evolution (contd)
--- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would you say is the scientific accuracy of anything in the Bible? I am asking you because you seem to question the accuracy of scientific methods like radiocarbon dating. Would 195,000 years be outside the margin of accuracy of Biblical dates? The Omo I modern human fossils are dated to be 195,000 years old using potassium-argon and geological dating. Bible history is full of metaphors, IMHO. Flaming sword - was it describing something like a laser gun a la Star Wars? Was the destruction of Sodom Gomorrah a nuclear destruction? Was the ascension of Elijah a flight by a something similar to a helicopter (wheels within wheels)? We have similar legends and stories in Greek Mythology, Arabian Nights, and the Mahabharata. Two heavenly arrows destroying one another in mid-air (Mahabharata) seems uncannily like the Patriot missiles destroying Saddam's missiles in Gulf War 1. Flying carpets / horses - could they be a way of describing planes in common everyday language when planes no longer existed? In other words - has man reinvented himself after some mighty catastrophe in the far past? As I understand Einstein is said to have stated at one time, I don't know what weapons will be used in WWIII, but surely WWIV will be fought with stones. My 2 cents' worth ... Gabriel de Figueiredo Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Caste - Activism v/s Research
Dear Cecil, Most of us (this covers Goanet as well) personally have no caste feelings, and do not discriminate between people on basis of religion, caste, etc. Naturally, we are perplexed as to what everybody is going on about. This was once explained to me by a Sociology Prof. (no less!) as being a fallacy called Psychologism. We assume that social structures are the sum of individual 'feelings' and opinions, when in fact they have an entrenched reality of their own. Such is caste, even though a majority of the population may become 'anti-casteist', systemic discrimination against the depressed castes continues. Apologies to antonio, but this is a general statment on caste and not an invasion of your sacred spaces -- incidentally, according to you, why is the general public barred from that debate? :-) On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 12:55 -0600, Cecil Pinto wrote: So where exactly is this diabolical caste problem? Or am I just to naive to understand some deeper issues involved. What are they? Are we making a mountain of a molehill? Will someone point out to me what exactly the caste problem is? Where does one see it? Is it 'very real' or, as Teotonio put it, are all these current debates the death throes of a dying monster? -- Question everything - Karl Marx
