Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
--- "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >don´t you believe this hanky-panky anti-caste campaign. They are not dying for Christian love. Can't see it from from their language and rancorous tone. Mario muses sadly: I guess pointing out that the caste system is incompatible with Christianity and imploring people to give it up is now seen as "rancorous" to some cynics. Or ae they closet Pro-casters?
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
After reading Mario Goveia's response to Bernado, I cannot resist sharing the core of a private e-mail message I received with reference to the caste discussion on the goanet. Is it perhaps driving a stake deep into the heart of caste debate? > > >don´t you believe this hanky-panky anti-caste campaign. They are not dying for Christian love. Can't see it >from from their language and rancorous tone. Their (charde) interest / frustration seems to lie in the >fact that democracy or gulf has brought to many of them enough education and money to their pockets, but >this blessed caste system still remains a big hurdle to get the bamonn girls. They see even Hindus getting >them, but not they --- Mario Goveia Thu, 03 Mar 2005 04:42:40 -0800 Bernardo, You must have led a sheltered childhood. Of course caste was not openly discussed because it is kept in the closet during most normal discourse. However, ask your Dad or some other relative of his age about marriages and matchmaking, when this issue comes out in full force among those who believe in it.
[Goanet]RE: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
As I had written in response to Santosh / George, there may be politics of guilt, but guilt without repentance is of no great usefulness. And guilt followed by dispair could be disastrous, like tha case of biblical Judas who got his 30 pieces osf silver for betraying Jesus and hanged himself! Hence, I remain convinced that to feel the guilt one needs to publicly admit one's place in the evil system and feel sorry for his / her conscious or unconscious part in it! Charde incriminating bamoon, and sdhir incriminating bamonn and sudir, and outcastes incriminating them all, will not take us anywhere! Shadow-boxing that is going on though the Goanet debate is an exercise in futility. A charddo financing the studies (or adopting ) of some poor bamonn kid or other caste talents and vice-versa (just an example that could be extended to other sorts of assistance in needs) could help us make some dent in this system. Teotonio R. de Souza Cip wrote: .. It is really heartening to note that Mahanth Sudhir Pujari has initiated a process to undo the 75-year-old mistake and has decided to adopt 25 Dalit students on behalf of Janasthan Peeth. He would also bring up 50 children and educate them properly. Though very belated, at least Mahant Sudhir has made a beginning and this should be an eye-opener and also an example for others. It is unfortunate that even today the discrimination against the Dalits is rampant, notwithstanding a number of legislations protecting their rights and providing for penalties. It has been proven time and again that mere laws are not enough for social, political and economic empowerment of the Dalits. What is needed is a strong social movement to create a discrimination-free society. This is the message that Mahanth Sudhir has sent forward on behalf of his erring grandfather.
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Just like some in the silent majority, I've been following this thread closely and mostly found the posts by all participants informativethat exchange momentarily went into a "what-I'm-saying-is-more-accurate-than-you" syndrome. I can conclude that the practice of casteism is present but not rampant - whether in the Catholic Church, in the Legislative Assembly, in my neighbourhood or at the local tintto. The question is how do we deal with it when we see it raise it's ugly head? Cornel: "Drive a stake thru it's heart" Teotonio: "Declare your own caste" Basilio: "Deal with it on a one-at-a-time basis" Gilbert: "Casteism - must be more of those sasumai kanneos" Mario: "want to abolish the diabolical caste system" Casteism as a practice will always exist in our life times and beyond.the question is how do we deal with it? Cecil on Mar 2/05 I have friends, associates, clients, suppliers etc from a whole range of Goan Catholics besides people of other religions and ethnicity. I don't know what their castes are and wouldn't be less bothered. +++ Suppose I told you, a particular friend(s) of yours had a casteist mindset, would you do as you suggest below - stop associating with them? Cecil on Mar 2/05 If a few stupid Goan Catholics will only marry only within their own caste then surely that is their own problem. Why should we be bothered? And if some Jurassic Goan Clubs still don't accept people of a particular caste then don't join that club, and stop associating with members of that Club. +++ Aren't you putting this a little too simply.there must be several hundred Goans who were scarred by being denied membership to the Jurassic Goan Clubs you mention.this has been an oft raised issue here on Goanet over several yearsif people keep mentioning thisit obviously affected some of them...probably something that you and I cannot relate too as we were not denied membership and probably can neither counsel them. Gibert on Mar 6/05 Or like me: let's move on and make the best of our present lives with practical actions; To help our fellow Goans of all caste. Now I am sure someone will write TO TELL ME "What I am saying." +++ What does this mean ?? You are not suggesting that the practice of Casteism amongst Goan Catholics is non-existent, are you ?? Please help us with some "practical suggestions". Moving on "as is" could appear as "denial" or "surrender"Help our fellow Goans - period!! "of all caste" carries connotations giving the ugly head, a face. Sanny Vaz on Feb 28/05 Sogleam thaim mhojem ekuch prathon, apun tosso dusro mhunon somoz, tuka kanto (thorn) laglear dukhta tosoch dusrea-kui dukta mhunon chint, anik sodanch tuji jib sambalun uloi, peleak okman korinakai, +++ I would like to request Sanny Vaz to please post his wonderful article in English for the benefit of some following the debate and don't understand Concanim. Teotonio (in the past): If you peruse somebody's birth record in the local church, you could find out the caste they were born into. +++ What about somebody not born in Goa ?? And why would the church allow any Jaki-bostiao and Santan-marie to go about perusing others birth records? Teotonio (in the past): If you know the individual's original name and village, you could find out the caste they were born into. Fred (in the past): If you know the village somebody comes from, you can identify the caste the person was born into. +++ What about people whose grandfather moved from village A to village B for economic or social reasons? If village A was higher in the social hierarchy would that automatically make the family appear from a lower caste once we met subsequent generations living in village B ? What about the reverse? Could one really predict their caste! NOT !! Gabriel on Feb 28/05: Respect everyone, no matter if they work in the fields or own a house in prime Altinho. +++ I like thatthat is for us to practicebut what do we do when we meet Caetan or receive an email from Caetan that carries the condescending tone that has been easily mistaken (or maybe not) as a higher caste talking down to a lower caste? Use the DELETE key or start another thread as Teotonio suggested? This is obviously a complex issue... Thank you everybody (incl. those not mentioned above) for your insights thus far !! Best wishes - Bosco PS. Jaki-bostiao, Santan-marie & Caetan are fictitious Goans in my narrative above. --- Goanet - http://www.goanet.org - Goa's premier mailing list is 10 years old
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves'
Dear Antonio Menezes, You presume that I know, you know (and we know?) of three distinct groups? You are starting with wrong presumptions. I had never known of your classification. Neither did I ever care to find out what goes in the minds of humble folks that you are referring to. It is again your presumption. I never addressed any message to humble folks,except to the noisy folks on goanet! Are you representing the "average goan folk" as you suggest? I think that on goanet each one speaks for himself and for no one else! If others agree or disagree with us, that is entirely their responsibility. Please speak for yourself, and I shall see if I have any answers. I do not claim to represent anyone else except myself. Teotonio R. de Souza --- Antonio Menezes Wed, 02 Mar 2005 04:26:03 -0800 Mr. Teotonio R. de Souza writes: ''could each one writing on the caste indicates what caste he belongs to ? '' Senhor Teotonio, what good will it do ? you know it, i know it and all of us know that catholics of celestial goa could be classified into three distinct groups. 1) men of god and their family members 2) bhatkars, gaumkar/jonnkars , morador/jonnkars and other chardos 3) the labouring class like landless farmers ( mundkars), tailors, caterers, carpenters , masons, fisherfolk, saltpan workers, toddy tappers,coconut pluckers etc. why would you Sir, condescend to know what goes in the minds of our humble folk. if you happen to( and i assume you do) belong to god's highest creation in the whole universe namely the brahmin, then you are subjecting your flawless atman to unnecessary pollution by getting involved with the shenanigans of the labouring classes. while on the subject of caste, i think, the average goan would very much or rather anxiously like to understand the genealoge/pedigree/ancestry/lineage of our glorious brahmin catholic and especially to know from which house of the sun, their hindu brahmin ancestors i.e. both father and mother, are descended from.
[Goanet]RE: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Teotonio, I am still at a loss to understand the pros and cons of caste system. I have not heard any concrete course of action to get rid of caste system. I like to know how you intend to confront this mammoth and sensitive issue. If you think I have understood the caste system better than the rest than I intend to stay put and enjoy the roller coaster ride. The addiction finally got to me unless you have a problem. BTW, your request to "start another thread" remark has the sounding of grouping, caste hierarchy and class alliance. If caste system is sensitive for Goans than how will you categorize people's mindset, power and affluence? Avelino Bastora/Kuwait _ Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:22:46 + (Hora padrão de Greenwich) From: "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goanet" Subject: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves? Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org Dear Avelino, If the subject has gained a roller coaster impact on so many readers who have intervened, including even Bernado Colaco, with "unlimited quantity and differing contents", it is because it touches a very sensitive social issue for Goans. If you could already fore-cast an "obstinate and shocking finish , it implies that you have been following it much better than many of us! You and other "exhausted readers" you mentioned should promptly start a more interesting thread which may not lead to any fresh roller coaster impact! Teotonio R. de Souza
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
--- "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Gabriel, > > No amount of education is ever too much. Your > reaction sounds more like > cognitive dissonance" of someone who hates to hear > what hurts his / her > feelings or what threatens his/her well-being. Let > us not forget that > there are many others who would benefit from more > knowledge. The great > problem with many of our discussions is lack of > sufficient knowledge. More > respect can follow from more knowledge / education, > never from less > knowledge or ignorance about the other. Your father > / you deserve more > credit if you respected some individuals despite > their inherited social > labels. That is how we need to move. > > Teotonio R. de Souza > Dear Teotonio and others, My outburst was a result of pent-up feelings. A couple of days ago, I had to explain to a relation why I was friends with a person of not exactly of a high-class parentage. I hope this explains that I am not fed up with the discussion per se, but with the existence of such class demarcations that come in the way of developing relationships between peoples of different backgrounds. IMHO, knowledge of another person's "inherited social label" is irrelevant in this world. It is what one does (the quality of work, not the type of work itself) that is to be valued, not by what label or surname one has inherited. Please don't misunderstand me on this statement. And as you affirm, the way one ought to move is to respect a person regardless of his social status, inherited or otherwise. Cheers, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Nice try, Teotonio, but you seem determined to obfuscate the entire issue and put obstacles in the path of any progress by continuing to introduce notions that have no relevence to the issue of stamping out the caste system that I can see. In fact it caters to those that support this diabolical system or are luke warm to its abolition. What about the caste system being an integral part of the Hindu way of life versus the contradiction between Christianity and caste don't you understand? And what standing do I, as a Goan Catholic, have, to preach the abolition of the caste system to Hindus, when we have so much work to be done in our own community? I have no problem with supporting Santosh and Radhakrishnan and providing them with solidarity in any attempt they make in their community, but for you to fail to see the need to prioritize and make sequential progress is to miss the whole point, which you seem so steadfastly determined to do. My problem with Basilio's approach is that it sits back and hopes someone has enough of a change of heart to come to him for counseling. What's the big deal in that? I see this approach as a missed opportunity to be pro-active and speak out, because he has the moral authority and standing in the community and the Church, which most of the rest of us don't. --- "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Mario / Basilio, > > Perhaps I should not have joined both in the same > reply, because you both > have very different points of view and strategies. > But I am joining the two > precisely because of that. Mario wants to handle the > problem of the > Catholics first, and leave it to Santosh, > Radhakrishnan Nair, etc to solve > the problem of their Hindu community. But I believe > and agree with Basilio > that we have a common inheritance and the two > communities still live in the > same house that we call Goa, day-in and day-out! It > is truly a challenge to > look at it as "our common problem" and tackle it > together. Catholic > paroquial" approach appears to me as doomed from the > start. > > > > My second point of disagreement with Mario is his > language and repeated > expression "driving stake in the heart". From the > Catholic Inquisition that > burnt persons at stake, have we now progressed to > this new phase of Catholic > violence? Luckily for Christ he was not a Christian, > nor a Catholic! These > are post-Christ inventions. Christ´s strategy is > presented more truthfully > by Basilio in the last three lines of his posting > below. Christ preferred to > expose his nakedness and to be nailed on the cross. > That is where lies the > power of his ressurection, not in the stakes > invented by Catholic > Christianity. > > > > Teotonio R. de Souza > > > > -- > > Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:10:27 -0800 > > Teotonio, > > Through the fog of all that feni it is beginning to > > dawn on me that we may be on the same page. > However, > > while you are looking at the entire problem, I have > > chosen to prioritize in order to focus and make some > > identifiable progress. > > > > While I abhor any and all forms of discrimination > > based on color, caste and creed, the reason I focus > on > > Catholic Goans is that it is this community in which > I > > have membership and standing, and it is where I > choose > > to take a stand. Furthermore, the caste system is > at > > odds with the teachings of Christ and Christianity, > > whereas it is an integral part of the Hindu way of > > life. Thus, while I may abhor and denounce casteism > > among Hindus, I choose to leave it up to our Hindu > > coleagues like Santosh Helekar and Radhakrishnan > Nair, > > who are eminently capable polemicists, to deal with > > their casteism. As you have seen, we have a big > > enough task to stamp out this insidious and > > destructive system in our own community. > > Mario Govea > > > > > > Three Cheers to the activists! More power to them! > > But do not demonize those who may ask the activists > to show their cards. > > There are some disgruntled individuals who have > taken up the cause of > > ³fighting caste.² Unfortunately, their > disgruntlement disqualifies them as > > bonafide leaders to battle the scourge of caste, > otherwise a worthy cause. > > Vociferous debates decorated with virulence do not > solve anything or advance > > any cause. At best they provide self-gratification, > and public adulation in > > some quarters. Vociferous discussions are not robust > or intellectually > > rigorous. Condemnations and LOUD condemnations are > exercises in > > pontification. > > > > My contribution to the battle against the caste: > facilitate personal > > transformation. I only sow the seed; it is for the > Lord to reap the fruits. > > I fully expect to be pilloried for what I have > written. So be it. I may post > > some further thoughts if I think I have, at some >
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Avelino, If the subject has gained a roller coaster impact on so many readers who have intervened, including even Bernado Colaco, with "unlimited quantity and differing contents", it is because it touches a very sensitive social issue for Goans. If you could already fore-cast an "obstinate and shocking finish , it implies that you have been following it much better than many of us! You and other "exhausted readers" you mentioned should promptly start a more interesting thread which may not lead to any fresh roller coaster impact! Teotonio R. de Souza --- Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:22:43 -0800 The readers of the caste system thread are experiencing the effects of a roller coaster ride. The unlimited quantity and differing contents of posts have virtually exhausted readers like me. I find difficult to understand, ponder and come to a conclusion about the pros and cons of caste system. The debate on the caste system has come to a standoff and has all the signs of obstinate and shocking finish. The rationale of the debate is tricky to comprehend. Avelino Bastora/Kuwait *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Gabriel, No amount of education is ever too much. Your reaction sounds more like cognitive dissonance" of someone who hates to hear what hurts his / her feelings or what threatens his/her well-being. Let us not forget that there are many others who would benefit from more knowledge. The great problem with many of our discussions is lack of sufficient knowledge. More respect can follow from more knowledge / education, never from less knowledge or ignorance about the other. Your father / you deserve more credit if you respected some individuals despite their inherited social labels. That is how we need to move. Teotonio R. de Souza --- "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Vidyadhar, > As I had mentioned in an earlier > posting, it is not > difficult to trace the caste in Goa if we know the > surname and the original > village of the person. Why bother if you're trying to educate people against casteism? I've had enough of this nonsense. Respect everyone, no matter if they work in the fields or own a house in prime Altinho. I learnt this early on from my father, who showed a great deal of respect to his musicians. And I try to follow his example. Cheers, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Mario / Basilio, Perhaps I should not have joined both in the same reply, because you both have very different points of view and strategies. But I am joining the two precisely because of that. Mario wants to handle the problem of the Catholics first, and leave it to Santosh, Radhakrishnan Nair, etc to solve the problem of their Hindu community. But I believe and agree with Basilio that we have a common inheritance and the two communities still live in the same house that we call Goa, day-in and day-out! It is truly a challenge to look at it as "our common problem" and tackle it together. Catholic paroquial" approach appears to me as doomed from the start. My second point of disagreement with Mario is his language and repeated expression "driving stake in the heart". From the Catholic Inquisition that burnt persons at stake, have we now progressed to this new phase of Catholic violence? Luckily for Christ he was not a Christian, nor a Catholic! These are post-Christ inventions. Christ´s strategy is presented more truthfully by Basilio in the last three lines of his posting below. Christ preferred to expose his nakedness and to be nailed on the cross. That is where lies the power of his ressurection, not in the stakes invented by Catholic Christianity. Teotonio R. de Souza -- Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:10:27 -0800 Teotonio, Through the fog of all that feni it is beginning to dawn on me that we may be on the same page. However, while you are looking at the entire problem, I have chosen to prioritize in order to focus and make some identifiable progress. While I abhor any and all forms of discrimination based on color, caste and creed, the reason I focus on Catholic Goans is that it is this community in which I have membership and standing, and it is where I choose to take a stand. Furthermore, the caste system is at odds with the teachings of Christ and Christianity, whereas it is an integral part of the Hindu way of life. Thus, while I may abhor and denounce casteism among Hindus, I choose to leave it up to our Hindu coleagues like Santosh Helekar and Radhakrishnan Nair, who are eminently capable polemicists, to deal with their casteism. As you have seen, we have a big enough task to stamp out this insidious and destructive system in our own community. Mario Govea Three Cheers to the activists! More power to them! But do not demonize those who may ask the activists to show their cards. There are some disgruntled individuals who have taken up the cause of ³fighting caste.² Unfortunately, their disgruntlement disqualifies them as bonafide leaders to battle the scourge of caste, otherwise a worthy cause. Vociferous debates decorated with virulence do not solve anything or advance any cause. At best they provide self-gratification, and public adulation in some quarters. Vociferous discussions are not robust or intellectually rigorous. Condemnations and LOUD condemnations are exercises in pontification. My contribution to the battle against the caste: facilitate personal transformation. I only sow the seed; it is for the Lord to reap the fruits. I fully expect to be pilloried for what I have written. So be it. I may post some further thoughts if I think I have, at some point, something useful to say. Basilio Monteiro *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Gabriel, This is precisely the point I've been trying to make. However, it seems like it is taking a lot longer than I thought to sink in to the psyche's of some Goanetters. Some are attempting to deny that it even exists, and others think that ignoring it will make it go away. Bravo and amen and kudos to your father who was obviously ahead of his time. Gabriel de Figueiredo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why bother if you're trying to educate people against casteism? I've had enough of this nonsense. > > Respect everyone, no matter if they work in the fields or own a house in prime Altinho. I learnt this early on from my father, who showed a great deal of respect to his musicians. And I try to follow his example. *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
In my life I was not tutored about the casta in Goa. Recently and because of this vociferous activity on the lists, I bothered to ask and was told that we were zuamkars from a place called Xorao! Teo does the word zaum mean anything to you? B. Colaco > > > Respect everyone, no matter if they work in the > fields > or own a house in prime Altinho. I learnt this early > on from my father, who showed a great deal of > respect > to his musicians. And I try to follow his example. > > Cheers, > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
--- "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Vidyadhar, > As I had mentioned in an earlier > posting, it is not > difficult to trace the caste in Goa if we know the > surname and the original > village of the person. Why bother if you're trying to educate people against casteism? I've had enough of this nonsense. Respect everyone, no matter if they work in the fields or own a house in prime Altinho. I learnt this early on from my father, who showed a great deal of respect to his musicians. And I try to follow his example. Cheers, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
Re: [Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Teotonio, Through the fog of all that feni it is beginning to dawn on me that we may be on the same page. However, while you are looking at the entire problem, I have chosen to prioritize in order to focus and make some identifiable progress. While I abhor any and all forms of discrimination based on color, caste and creed, the reason I focus on Catholic Goans is that it is this community in which I have membership and standing, and it is where I choose to take a stand. Furthermore, the caste system is at odds with the teachings of Christ and Christianity, whereas it is an integral part of the Hindu way of life. Thus, while I may abhor and denounce casteism among Hindus, I choose to leave it up to our Hindu coleagues like Santosh Helekar and Radhakrishnan Nair, who are eminently capable polemicists, to deal with their casteism. As you have seen, we have a big enough task to stamp out this insidious and destructive system in our own community. A recent lengthy post by one of our Hindu Goanetters described the opinions of some Catholic priest who advanced the amazing opinion that Dalits need to maintain their "unique" identity and need not become more like Chardos or Brahmins. In my opinion this "politically correct" priest has the bull by the tail. What we should be stamping out is precisely all such identities, not just the Dalits, but the Chardos and Brahmins and any other caste as well. The initial goal should be for all Catholic Goans to be just that, Catholic Goans, no better or worse than any other Catholics or anyone else for that matter. That should be our primary sequential goal rather that trying to find some self-esteem in being a micro-sub-set of this community. Once we Catholic Goans can claim to have substantially cleaned our own house of this blight and made it an unacceptable practice, then we will have earned the moral capital to browbeat the Mangaloreans, Keralites and finally the Hindus, where all this nonsense began thousands of years ago, into changing. --- "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Mario, > > I am with you all the way, but I prefer that we act > with "full" knowledge of > the ugly reality, not moving with blinkers on. I > would not also be so > exclusivist as you seem to be in restricting these > efforts to Catholic > Goans! What kind of faith in humanity are you > referring to? Self-centered > Christiniaty is a contradiction in terms. Do not the > Hindu brethren deserve > the same benefits? What we need is a truly secular > approach. The > Christianity in Goa or elsewhere has not taken us > very far in ending > inequalities, either of caste or others. May be it > has ended some to invent > others in the larger world. > > With best wishes to you in your tanning programme. > > Teotonio R. de Souza > > -- > > > > Mario Goveia > > Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:25:26 -0800 > > I am trying hard to work on my tan in Goa, Pune and > > Mumbai, and to make a dent in the total inventory of > > caju feni, cafreal, sorpotel and sannas, only to > have > > my pleasant experiences tarnished by the continued > > attempt by a couple of Goanetters to obfuscate, > > deflect and dilute the diabolical issue of caste > among > > Cahtholic Goans with the most disingenious bovine > > excrement I have seen in a long time. > > > > However, it has restored my faith in humanity that > > every Catholic Goanetter who mercilessly beat me > > verbally across the head and shoulders when I was > > defending the attempt to provide freedom and > democracy > > for downtrodden Iraqis, like Jose, Cornel, Sib, > > George, Gabriel, et. al. agree with me 100% on the > > issue of providing freedom for all Catholic Goans > from > > the diabolical and psychologically destructive caste > > system. > > > > > > > > > *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Mario, I am with you all the way, but I prefer that we act with "full" knowledge of the ugly reality, not moving with blinkers on. I would not also be so exclusivist as you seem to be in restricting these efforts to Catholic Goans! What kind of faith in humanity are you referring to? Self-centered Christiniaty is a contradiction in terms. Do not the Hindu brethren deserve the same benefits? What we need is a truly secular approach. The Christianity in Goa or elsewhere has not taken us very far in ending inequalities, either of caste or others. May be it has ended some to invent others in the larger world. With best wishes to you in your tanning programme. Teotonio R. de Souza -- Mario Goveia Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:25:26 -0800 I am trying hard to work on my tan in Goa, Pune and Mumbai, and to make a dent in the total inventory of caju feni, cafreal, sorpotel and sannas, only to have my pleasant experiences tarnished by the continued attempt by a couple of Goanetters to obfuscate, deflect and dilute the diabolical issue of caste among Cahtholic Goans with the most disingenious bovine excrement I have seen in a long time. However, it has restored my faith in humanity that every Catholic Goanetter who mercilessly beat me verbally across the head and shoulders when I was defending the attempt to provide freedom and democracy for downtrodden Iraqis, like Jose, Cornel, Sib, George, Gabriel, et. al. agree with me 100% on the issue of providing freedom for all Catholic Goans from the diabolical and psychologically destructive caste system.
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Vidyadhar, Goan caste system and ambiance is not basically very different from what you see in Maharashtra. As I had mentioned in an earlier posting, it is not difficult to trace the caste in Goa if we know the surname and the original village of the person. I say "original", because some persons could have moved to another village different from that of the ancestors. Original Souzas of Moirá are brahmins, but if a Sousa from Calangute has moved to Moirá, he would be a Chardó. For those who may be interested in knowing more about the caste system of Goa and caste locations in Goa, I would recommend the following readings: A. B. Bragança Pereira, * Etnografia da India Portuguesa*, 2 vols. (Delhi, AES, 1991) - reprint Filipe Nery Xavier, *Bosquejo Histórico das Comunidades*, 3 vols, Bastorá, 1903. P.S.S. Pissurlencar, "O elemento hindu da casta chardo", *Oriente Português* 12-12 (1936), pp. 203-232. Rui Gomes Pereira, *HIndu Temples and Deities*, Panaji, 1978. Rui Gomes Pereira, * Goa: Gaunkari - The Old Village Associations,* Panaji, 1980. Mariano Feio, *As castas hindus de Goa*, Lisboa, 1979. Incidentally, the Goan proverb I had quoted earlier in a message is incomplete. It should read: Vigaracho sermanv uniek nhoi. Teotonio R. de Souza Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:04:54 +0530 From: Vidyadhar Gadgil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]Will the anti-casters identify themselves? To: Goanet mails Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org Teotonio's request may strike many as peculiar, but is not off the topic. While not supporting a deterministic viewpoint (i.e. a person's views on caste are determined by her/his caste), caste background can be an important ingredient of how one relates to the issue of caste. Not sure how this works in Goa, but in Maharashtra (the birthplace of the dalit movement as well as the most obscurantist brahminical organisations), from a person's name one almost automatically knows that person's caste background. Maybe that's the case among Goan Hindus? What about Goan catholics? What is the correlation between surname and caste? Incidentally, jc, Kunbi is a caste. VG --- jc: .. and Kunbis. (outcastes like moi)
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Dear Mervyn I like your reply! It implies a sense of humour and sounds less tragic than one I received from someone who did not respond to me but to his own assumptions! No debate can be maintained with persons who reveal a disturbed state of mind and pretend that being "catholics" gives them the right to ignore caste system or resolve it! The Church and Christians of Goa must have thought that way at all times, that they were "good catholics". It did not prevent them from compromising with the caste system till today! Mervyn, may I know if Maciels were your Jesuit connections? Are you a "zonn" collector of any village in Goa? Regards, Teotonio - I would really, really like to indicate what caste has been assigned to me, but I don't have a clue. However, I do know that there are others on this net who have a pretty good idea of which caste(s) has been assigned. These are the same people who in Tanzania could, and would, block other people from becoming members of the Goan clubs there because of their caste. The last time I was interested in the caste system, I was a pre-teen. I asked my mom what caste we were, and she said she did not have a clue. Even at that time, I thought that was strange as mom was THE smartest woman I knew. However, since her only brother and four of her first cousins were Jesuits, I ASSumed we must be of good stock :-) So, if there are any of you good folks out there who can help, please let me know on what rung of the ladder (by the grace of God) I was born too. Mervyn2.0 Award Winning Writer AVISO Esta mensagem (incluindo quaisquer anexos) pode conter informação confidencial para uso exclusivo do destinatário. Se não for o destinatário pretendido, não deverá usar, distribuir ou copiar este e-mail.Se recebeu esta mensagem por engano, por favor informe o emissor e elimine-o imediatamente. Obrigado. DISCLAIMER This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential information for exclusive use of its recipient.If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, distribute or copy this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Thank you http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1503/teo_publ.pdf
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
Teotonio I have no caste. If anyone tries to assign one to me, I categorically reject it. I identify with the most discriminated group - the dalits. I see the oppression they have suffered and suffer. Unfortunately I cannot do more to help now but I am concerned about justice which includes fighting the caste system. Of course justice begins with each of us and we have to rid ourselves of our own biases and predujices first to the extent we can. Justice means we do not need to be women to fight sexism, senior-citizens to fight ageism, chardo to fight the caste system, etc. Regards, George "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With so much caste-noise broadcast on goanet, is it > really a war against castes or a war of castes? > Could each one writing on the theme indicate what > caste he belongs to? It could help to filter the > emotional ingredients of the debate. I am inclined > to take the anti-brahmin discourse of a chardo or > sudir discussant with a pinch of salt,
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves? Teotonio R. de Souza
Politics of Goan Historiography« Ideology [ ] is not apology, although it may andoften does entail it. Ideologies are world-views which,despite their partial and possible critical insights, preventus from understanding the society in which we live and thepossibilities of changing it. They are world-views whichcorrespond to standpoints of classes and social groupswhose interests in the existing social system and incapacityto change it make it impossible for them to see it as a whole[ ] these ideologies are part of bourgeois ideology, notbecause they express immediate interests of the ruling class,but because they are limited in theory, by the limits ofbourgeois society in reality ; because their development,including even their criticism of bourgeois society, isgoverned by the development of bourgeois society andunable to go beyond it » (Shaw 1978).o write about Goa is to write about difference. Goan history has alwaysoccupied a marginal position within the field of Indian history. Goas economyand social practices though closely bound up with those on the South Asiansubcontinent have evolved a specific character and flavor.The year 1998 marks the quincentenary of Vasco da Gamas landing in the westcoast of the South Asian subcontinent. This was perhaps the time first since Goasliberation in 1961, that Goas 451 year long colonial history became the focus ofnational attention. In the interim, Goas colonial past was articulated and became aunique selling point for the marketing of India as a tourism destination.While elsewhere in India the event created a sense of curiosity, within Goa1theissue crystallized into a dialogue between two visions of Goas past, Goa Dourada(Boxer 1961 ; Collis 1946 : 32 ; Remy 1957) and Goa Indica (Ifeka 1985 ; Newman 1988).Goa Dourada refers to the Portuguese colonial construction of Goa which sees Goa asa European enclave attached to the Indian subcontinent and Goa Índica refers to theanti-colonial construction of Goa which emphasizes the Indian contribution to Goansociety. The theoretical issues in the field such as the modes of production debate orthe subaltern critique that has shaped Indian historiography has not had a significantinfluence on Goan historiography2. This isolation of Goan historiography from the1. Much of the research related to Goan studies has been restricted to the discipline of historyand a few contributions from sociologists and anthropologists. Hence, the paper willdepend heavily on the works of historians.2. D.D. KOSAMBI, a native of Salcette, Goa, introduced a paradigmatic shift in the study ofIndian history with his book An Introduction to the Study of Indian History, 1956. KOSAMBI(1962) made some insightful observations about social structures of villages in OldT --- - Page 2 638La Chronique des livrescrucial debates related to the field has contributed to the dominance of the two maininterpretations of Goan society mentioned earlier and its history. The absence ofcritical assessment has rendered the history of the Goan majority mute.The title phrase of a recently published book, A Kind of Absence : Life in the Shadowof History, by João da Veiga Coutinho (1998), strikes at the very root of the problemwhich I will explore in this paper. I have interpreted « A kind of absence » to meanthe absence of a theoretically sophisticated critical account of Goan society and itshistory. This absence has contributed to the increasing dominance of teleologicallyconstructed assessments of history, assessments which focus on the activities ofindividuals or groups and constitute more a documentation of facts to rationalizecontemporary developments within the society rather than an interpretation of facts.Most of the accounts to be discussed later in this essay do not investigate the socialrelations that contribute to the constitution of the historical facts. Many among theexisting accounts of Goan history, be it a reinforcement of Goa Dourada or Goa Índica,have obscured and cast a shadow over the actual processes and struggles thatcontributed to the making of the contemporary Goan society and its history. GoaDourada and Goa Índica are class based ideologies. It is important that one recognizesthem as such and expose what they represent. The paper focuses on the criticalassessment of the dialogue between Goa Dourada and Goa Índica and attempts todestabilize these objects whose shadow obstructs our attempt to access, retrieve andunderstand Goan history.With this in view, I proceed with a brief discussion on Goa Dourada the colonialrendition of Goan history.« Goa Dourada »« For Latins the city was a paradise, a lotus-eating island of the blest, where you couldsit on your veranda listening to music as the breeze blew in from the sea » (Collis 1946).Goa Dourada, or Golden Goa, is the image of Goa as conceived by the Portuguesecolonizers in their construction of the Portuguese empire. Accordi
[Goanet]Re: Will the anti-casters identify themselves?
I respect the blunt or polite refusal by those who do not wish to reveal the caste label they have inherited. It is not very difficult though to find it out with some effort and time that any research usually requires. Hence, some time from now it could be possible to analyse this on-going debate and know more about its most involved participants. It would be possible then to know if it is primarily an exercise of self-serving catharsis by a caste-group seeking to relieve itself from its real or imagined traumas of caste-oppression, rather than a sincere and altruistic struggle for defence of human rights. In a society that is never static, and is more fluit in times of faster economic and social changes as the one in which we are presently living, the caste strangle-hold is bound to get losened. There are a few studies conducted about this process in some of the Goan villages. At least two of such studies are conducted by non-Goan / non-Indian researchers with no native biases. Montemayor studied Loliem for a thesis in sociology presented to Delhi University in 1970. Janet Rubinoff worked in Corlim and Carambolim in 1978-79 and presented her thesis in anthropology in 1992 to Toronto University. Unfortunately we do not have published versions of either. But they are good studies that enable us to understand how the caste structure has evolved over the centuries in Goan society. Though not directly related to Goa, we have an excellent analysis of how the secularisation process in India has affected the Caste system over the past 50 years or so. (Cf. Peter Ronald de Souza (ed), *Contemporary India: Transitions*, New Delhi, Fundação Oriente / Sage Publications, 2000, pp. 237-263). The same process is affecting Goa as well and will have similar effects. Perhaps the increasing caste-noises are the cries of a wounded and dying monster? P.S. Janet Rubinoff refers in her thesis that the *bhangi* caste became superfluous in Goa with the extensive use of pigs. Could not the resourceful Goans devise something similar to get rid of Bamonn, Charde, Sudir, etc.? Teotónio R. de Souza
