[Goanet]Re: Women Priests
Mario Gouveia wrote: There are millions of Catholic women who don't suffer the same angst as you seem to be suffering on their behalf. That dear Mario, may perhaps be because half those millions of Catholic women have been brainwashed since birth that they are only entitled to be second class citizens in the Church and the other half, clearly see the system as it is and don't really care to be part of it. Diana
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests!!!
George, I think you are getting too emotionally and intellectually invested in this issue, my friend, and are likely to get very frustrated because there is no satisfactory solution to the problem that upsets you so much, even though your facts and logic may be sound. Don't make it harder than it needs to be. There are millions of Catholic women who don't suffer the same angst as you seem to be suffering on their behalf. So, what is really going on here? You need to take it, take some of it like most of us, or leave it as some Goanetters have done who apparently find no psychological benefits to balance the problems they see. May they find peace in their decision. The fact you are confronted with is that the Catholic Church is an autocratic, top down, patriarchal religion, where practitioners accept far more on faith alone than your fairly rudimentary list of grieviances, or pretend to. I pointed out practically the whole list, from prophecies, virgin birth, miracles, Holy Trinity, resurrection from the dead, two physical ascensions into heaven, the body and blood of Christ in communion (have I missed anything?). After accepting some or all of this impressive list, overtly or covertly, you are demanding from them human sequential logic in relatively mundane issues like celibacy for priests and women as priests. May I recommend a nice drive down the coast to Pebble Beach or Big Sur, or some soothing yoga to help you chill? --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the reasons Maurice gives below are to be understood as religious beliefs, I have no problem. People believe any number of things. But if they are offered as logical arguments, I have some comments below.
[Goanet]Re: Women priests!!!
If the reasons Maurice gives below are to be understood as religious beliefs, I have no problem. People believe any number of things. But if they are offered as logical arguments, I have some comments below. --- maurice dmello goanet@goanet.org wrote: The Pope has offered theological reasons for the Church's prohibition of women priests in Christifidelis Laici and other documents. He has emphasized that this restriction represents the mind of Christ, The Pope probably speaks to Christ on a regular basis (I have no idea). In the past, Popes allowed married priests, now disallowed. Does Christ change his mind? who could have chosen women as apostles if he wanted to. He has also said that this is a matter of essential Catholic belief and cannot change. The church has changed on a number of issues, including in our lifetime (see Bosco's post). This could change in the future. If it is Gods will (if you believe Jesus is God that is), are we challenging God here George? Has the Church misrepresented God's will by change on a number of occasions? Has the Church/Pope therefore challenged God? Jesus being Son of God, sent for a purpose, has fulfilled it, and chose 12 males as his disciples, filled them with Holy Spirit and appointed Peter as head of his Church. I have no idea why Jesus chose 12 apostles, all male. Perhaps it symbolically had to do with the fathers of the 12 tribes of Isreal? How was the transition made from 12 apostles to the current Church set-up? May be Jesus wanted only 12 Cardinals? 12 Popes? He also did not pick Peter as Pope. One can be very selective in one's logic and pick and chose the premise to say since Christ picked male apostles, he wanted only male priests. Christ picked apostles, he did not pick them as Pope, cardinals, bishops, and priests which is a church invention. He also did not pick nuns, so why do we have nuns today? Is that against Jesus's wishes? Why is the male apostle description used to justify male priests? It is reported Peter had a beard. Using your logic one can conclude that Christ wanted all Popes to have a beard. Supposedly all apostles Jesus chosen were under 6 feet tall. Should all priests today be under 6 feet tall? The apostles were also a certain age group. Should priests today be only of that age group? I think most or all were Jewish. Does that mean we should have no Brazilian, Indian etc. priests today? As a Cardinal, Joseph Ratzinger often admonished that the Church must remain separate from the world, and he is nearly sure to shake some of this worldliness from bishops -- especially those whose waywardness has caused what he just recently described as soiled garments in the Church of Christ. He has spoken against bishops who act more like bureaucrats than holy men. Exactly which part of the statements above is for or against women priests, even assuming those are Ratzinger's views? Btw, Ratzinger has been very selective, especially as it relates to race -more on that in another email. After all, if I went into a McDonalds and told the waitress I wanted deep fried chicken with lots of spices, she would simply tell me, Sir that is not on our menu, but there is a KFC right across the street. I trust you got the message. The message I got is McDonald's looks at their market and customers and listen to their needs. They would introduce Chicken on their menu. It would be the right thing to do. In fact, that is exactly what McDonald's did some years ago and has introduced chicken. It has also announced it will further update its menu, while still differentiating itself in other real ways from KFC. In Orwell's Animal Farm, all animals are equal, except pigs are more equal. It appears for some on this forum, further to that thinking, males pigs are more equal than female pigs. Perhaps Freud is right too. Men, in their desire to dominate women, are dealing with their own sexual issues and adequacies (since this is a family-friendly forum I won't say more). Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Goans really want to do something for women and THEIR women, do what we will do next month. Have a Goan mother-daughter dinner. And do it across caste lines. Can all the conformists and non-conformists tell us what have they recently done to support their theoretical dissertations about not discriminating against women? Mario reminds Gilbert: This is known as being too cute by half. However, since this is a Goan mother/daughter dinner, aren't you discriminating against non-Goans? And, what castes are you talking about? I thought you agreed with Fr. Jerome D'Souza that there are NO castes in Christianity. Simply put, what I have done about not discriminating against women is to treat all women the same as I treat anyone else, and also to avoid patronising them, all women, not just Goan women.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
Gilbert, Maybe having women cook food is a novel concept in your home, or for people of your generation. However in most Goan (and non Goan)dual income homes I have been to (in N.America at least), sharing responsibility on home chores is pretty routine. So other than coming with excuses on why women should be given a la carte rights, when they visit the catholic cafeteria, please come up with other more impowering suggestions! Marlon --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GL responds: If Goans really want to do something for women and THEIR women, do what we will do next month. Have a Goan mother-daughter dinner. The husband /fathers are the cooks and the waiters at the dinner. Single women are not excluded as they are somebody's mother and daughter. No theology, sociology or anthropology. Just action. And do it across caste lines. Can all the conformists and non-conformists tell us what have they recently done to support their theoretical dissertations about not discriminating against women? Or are they just throwing ideas for others to follow?
[Goanet]Re: Women priests!!!
The Pope has offered theological reasons for the Church's prohibition of women priests in Christifidelis Laici and other documents. He has emphasized that this restriction represents the mind of Christ, who could have chosen women as apostles if he wanted to. He has also said that this is a matter of essential Catholic belief and cannot change. If it is Gods will (if you believe Jesus is God that is), are we challenging God here George? Jesus being Son of God, sent for a purpose, has fulfilled it, and chose 12 males as his disciples, filled them with Holy Spirit and appointed Peter as head of his Church. Jesus respected women to a very great extent and even while hanging on the corss, on the verge of death, asked John to take care of his mother, remember? As a Cardinal, Joseph Ratzinger often admonished that the Church must remain separate from the world, and he is nearly sure to shake some of this worldliness from bishops -- especially those whose waywardness has caused what he just recently described as soiled garments in the Church of Christ. He has spoken against bishops who act more like bureaucrats than holy men. After all, if I went into a McDonalds and told the waitress I wanted deep fried chicken with lots of spices, she would simply tell me, Sir that is not on our menu, but there is a KFC right across the street. I trust you got the message. I strongly agree with Ms. Coelho. FYI, The Islamic Holy book is dictated by Islamic God, and not even a coma is supposed to be altered from the original format. Do not blame Taliban. Maurice D.
[Goanet]Re: Women priests
GL responds: If Goans really want to do something for women and THEIR women, do what we will do next month. Have a Goan mother-daughter dinner. The husband /fathers are the cooks and the waiters at the dinner. Single women are not excluded as they are somebody's mother and daughter. No theology, sociology or anthropology. Just action. And do it across caste lines. Can all the conformists and non-conformists tell us what have they recently done to support their theoretical dissertations about not discriminating against women? Or are they just throwing ideas for others to follow? Are any Goan ladies reading this? :=)) Please let/make your husband treat you as a priestess and smile about it for a year. Thanks. Gilbert George Pinto I am afraid your logic will lead the Taliban in Afganistan and others to conclude that is ok to discriminate against women in the manner they have: that's our religion, take it or leave it. No room for ratioanl thinking, just be obedient to the Dark Ages.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests Taliban Treatment?
Strange it seems the RC Church that discriminates against women (no women ordination) and treats them like Taliban -- has canonized women ? It does not cost to criticize, without realistic thought. JV --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Goveia replies: George, a learned and highly educated person like you Not true. Please take my word. Mario replies: Folks, take my word, George is both learned and educated, as well as a deep thinker, sometimes to the point of almost drowning, as when he persists in comparing the Catholic Church with the Taliban (more below) George writes: Girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban were forbidden to attend schools, and women would be beaten in public if the Morality Police as much as caught a glimpse of their ankles The last time I checked, all that women in the Catholic Church were being excluded from was the priesthood. I am not trying to have the last word and have this brief comment. If one is being robbed of equality does it matter about the scale of the robbery? I suppose if someone stole 5 lakhs from a bank as opposed to 50 lakhs, the bank should be grateful? All am I am trying to say is that denying women or any other group equality is wrong regardless of color, skin, age, gender, etc. Mario replies: George, you are missing the point entirely, with all due respect, and you are comparing apples with elephants in my opinion. I submit again that when you take the Catholic Church's denial of priesthood to women, while exalting and revering women in every other way, and compare this with the misogynistic Taliban and their proactive physical and psychological abuse of women, you are not comparing the stealing of 5 lakhs and 50 lakhs, you are comparing stealing with murder. While you may even be right that excluding women from being priests constitutes inequality, which it does within your carefully controlled context, what the Taliban did to it's women went waay beyond such a doctrinal anomaly. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women Priests
Diana, Touche. Everyone who is familiar with the inner workings of how most nuns conduct their business and dedicate their lives to helping people where the rubber meets the road as opposed to pontificating from an ivory tower, most without any interest in being priests and being bossed around by Cardinals and Bishops, would know that Diana is right on. --- flower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Standing on the steeple and pontificating to the people, airing profound thoughts with a superior air, massaging their delicate egos, bossing everyone around, crushing any different opinion ruthlessly and doing constant whitewashing jobs are perhaps tasks best left to the men, while we women get on with performing the real nitty gritty chores that keep the world moving. That acutally, is why there are no women priests. Diana
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Goveia replies: George, a learned and highly educated person like you Not true. Please take my word. Mario replies: Folks, take my word, George is both learned and educated, as well as a deep thinker, sometimes to the point of almost drowning, as when he persists in comparing the Catholic Church with the Taliban (more below) George writes: Girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban were forbidden to attend schools, and women would be beaten in public if the Morality Police as much as caught a glimpse of their ankles The last time I checked, all that women in the Catholic Church were being excluded from was the priesthood. I am not trying to have the last word and have this brief comment. If one is being robbed of equality does it matter about the scale of the robbery? I suppose if someone stole 5 lakhs from a bank as opposed to 50 lakhs, the bank should be grateful? All am I am trying to say is that denying women or any other group equality is wrong regardless of color, skin, age, gender, etc. Mario replies: George, you are missing the point entirely, with all due respect, and you are comparing apples with elephants in my opinion. I submit again that when you take the Catholic Church's denial of priesthood to women, while exalting and revering women in every other way, and compare this with the misogynistic Taliban and their proactive physical and psychological abuse of women, you are not comparing the stealing of 5 lakhs and 50 lakhs, you are comparing stealing with murder. While you may even be right that excluding women from being priests constitutes inequality, which it does within your carefully controlled context, what the Taliban did to it's women went waay beyond such a doctrinal anomaly.
[Goanet]Re: Women Priests
Standing on the steeple and pontificating to the people, airing profound thoughts with a superior air, massaging their delicate egos, bossing everyone around, crushing any different opinion ruthlessly and doing constant whitewashing jobs are perhaps tasks best left to the men, while we women get on with performing the real nitty gritty chores that keep the world moving. That acutally, is why there are no women priests. Diana
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
George - I don't disagree that in the RC church it's a matter of practice and not theology. I too learned that from a Catholic priest. :-)) However, women CAN become CATHOLIC priests, too, just not Roman Catholic priests, but certainly Anglican Catholic, or is that not good enough? I still say that if a woman wants to be a Catholic priest she can do it, period, and there is no good reason to insist on being a woman priest in a denomination where it is not permitted. In my parochial world, it just doesn't make sense for a woman to insist on being a Roman Catholic priest unless there are ulterior motives, such as publicity or a desire to be controversial. Why insist on crashing a party to which you haven't been invited?? Viviana George Pinto wrote: --- Viviana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred - Women CAN become priests, but not in the RC church. If a woman feels called to be a priest(ess), there are MANY denominations for her to choose from, so why not choose one of them instead of banging her head at the Vatican's door? If she were really and truly interested in priesthood, and not just the evening news, a woman can achieve that goal. Viviana This is a bogus argument as the premises are being changed. The argument all along has been women becoming Catholic priests and not what other denominations do or don't. To attack them as seeking publicity on the evening news is an ad hominem argument. As we have seen on this forum, no good reason has been given by those who oppose women priesthood. As a Goan priest mentioned to me last evening, there is no theological reason which excludes women priesthood, but it is a part of Church practice. The lack of opportunity to become a woman priest and the denial to women solely based on their gender is tantamount to treating them as second-class. Much like the Taliban. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
--- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we have seen on this forum, no good reason has been given by those who oppose women priesthood. As a Goan priest mentioned to me last evening, there is no theological reason which excludes women priesthood, but it is a part of Church practice. Mario replies: I don't oppose women priests, but I also think it's more than simply practice and inertia. I will find out the official rationale shortly, if there is one. However, I don't expect any explanation to satisfy you, so don't hold your breath, especially since there is unlikely to be any change in our lifetime. George says: The lack of opportunity to become a woman priest and the denial to women solely based on their gender is tantamount to treating them as second-class. Much like the Taliban. Mario replies: Now here's a REAL bogus comparison, George, and what is worse, a learned and highly educated person like you, ought to know better. Girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban were forbidden to attend schools, and women would be beaten in public if the Morality Police as much as caught a glimpse of their ankles under their burqas, and executed in the soccer stadium in Kabul for anything considered really serious, like being caught kibitzing with a male stranger. The last time I checked, all that women in the Catholic Church were being excluded from was the priesthood. Get real, man. Advocating for women is one thing. Such overblown rhetoric is something else altogether.
[Goanet]Re: Women priests - 4th choice
Gilbert Lawrence responds I have no strong feelings either way because women or no women would not come between me and my God and my church. If it affects someone, they need to re-evaluate their reasons for being Catholic and the follower of Christ The issue is not someone's personal (and selfish?) feelings about women and their role in the church. While there is a perceived injustice with respect to women, we get the answer of someone hanging out on the sideline. Even the reference to my church assumes what matters is only my personal situation. The Church is 1.1 billion Catholics and what happens there, not just my church. It is true one should re-evaluate their reasons for being of a certain faith. In this regard, the Church was started on reform, Christ being the first and most important reformer - lest we forget. I wonder if those who oppose the reform for women priesthood now, would at the time of Christ, opposed reforms then. Would they have said to Christ that's the Jewish faith, take it or leave it. You need to re-evaluate your reasons for being Jewish. Join another denomination! Would they not merely have been anti-reformists but, using their own logic, also opposed Christ? Regards, George
[Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
--- Viviana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred - Women CAN become priests, but not in the RC church. If a woman feels called to be a priest(ess), there are MANY denominations for her to choose from, so why not choose one of them instead of banging her head at the Vatican's door? If she were really and truly interested in priesthood, and not just the evening news, a woman can achieve that goal. Viviana This is a bogus argument as the premises are being changed. The argument all along has been women becoming Catholic priests and not what other denominations do or don't. To attack them as seeking publicity on the evening news is an ad hominem argument. As we have seen on this forum, no good reason has been given by those who oppose women priesthood. As a Goan priest mentioned to me last evening, there is no theological reason which excludes women priesthood, but it is a part of Church practice. The lack of opportunity to become a woman priest and the denial to women solely based on their gender is tantamount to treating them as second-class. Much like the Taliban. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
Gabe, You are absolutely correct that a Pope's pronouncement has to be ex cathedra to be considered infallible. --- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 23/04/05, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario and Viviana: ... You can question the Catholic religion all you want, and make rational arguments till the cows come home, and all you'll get in return is major angst. I don't think you can dispute the fact that the Catholic Church is a take it or leave it proposition. In fact, Benedict XVI, who is now infallible in the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, and also it's leading theologian, has written that he sees no problem with a smaller church as an alternative to compromising on core values. So, there you have it RESPONSE: It is my belief that the Pope is considered infallible only and when he specifically makes pronouncements 'ex cathedra' Cheers, Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
On 23/04/05, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario and Viviana: ... You can question the Catholic religion all you want, and make rational arguments till the cows come home, and all you'll get in return is major angst. I don't think you can dispute the fact that the Catholic Church is a take it or leave it proposition. In fact, Benedict XVI, who is now infallible in the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, and also it's leading theologian, has written that he sees no problem with a smaller church as an alternative to compromising on core values. So, there you have it RESPONSE: It is my belief that the Pope is considered infallible only and when he specifically makes pronouncements 'ex cathedra' Cheers, Gabe Menezes. London, England
[Goanet]Re; women priests
GL responds Was it not your post Fred stating that an inquiry about one's village (commonly done in Goa) and a look about at one's birth certificate tells one about their caste. The first part of the statement is true. Cecil Pinto has still not forgiven me for saying this ;-) and says statements such as these cause a lot of embarassment over what can (sometimes) also be a rather innocent question. I can't exactly figure out where the birth certificates bit came in, though you might as well be true on that too. As you know both statements were wrong I'm not sure about this, as far as the first part of the statement goes. School certificates -- not birth certificates -- did included (in my time, which was aggges ago) columns for 'race' and 'religion'. Our school authorities simply filled in 'Indian Christian'. We didn't debate with anyone over that. One doesn't remember ever having to identify my caste in an official form -- there were simply two categories SC/ST and general. The SC/ST categorisation was more in the form of affirmative action, as some form of positive discrimination was offered to those in these long-neglected categories. and they turned out to be a flame thrower, that we have yet to recover from - that of course is thanks to me.:=)) Yes. In Net jargon, you could call them flame-baits. These posts were provocative, intended to rake up discussion, and get in different perspectives on an issue. They were not intended to cause any personal insult, or prove that I'm necessarily right over everything, but rather to test a hypothesis which seems still pretty prevalent even today. For instance, sometime people get rather jumpy when I insist that I live in Saligao (a geographically-attestable and undeniable fact) and refuse to get caught up in the more-loaded where are you from question. Is the statement/ comment/ question below along similar lines? Yes, it too is intended to provoke a wide range of debate. Are you a member of COW? (committee for the ordination of women) =:)) Please could you send me the membership rules and contact details? Do they have a website? In turn, I could put you in touch with DOG (Don't Ordain Gender-handicapped species). I have no strong feelings either way because women or no women would not come between me and my God and my church. If it affects someone, they need to re-evaluate their reasons for being Catholic and the follower of Christ I have no strong feelings either. Just that discriminating on the basis of gender is about as sensible as discriminating on the basis of age, colour, race, caste, height, blood-group, nationality, and the like. Would ordination of women help more men and Goan men to go to church?:=)) Nice question! If we could have a few more such questions coming in, then we could postpone the issue of ordination of women for some time more. As of now, without women, I'm sure the Church would find it rather difficult to continue as an organisation. FN PS: Have a good weekend. It's a hot and sunny Sunday morning in Goa, and I'm already late to meet up with Victor Rangel-Ribeiro at Fontainhas.
Re: [Goanet]RE: Women Priests - 4th Choice
P D [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some men, in their disillusionment or through subjugation, play the devil's advocate. Admittedly women are much smarter than the male homo sapiens. They have and wisely use their innate sixth sense :-) Pat, This sixth sense, that you talk about, includes the ability to belong to a group and not contribute anything to it? Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[Goanet]RE: Women Priests - 4th Choice
Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mervyn3.0 PS. Since no woman has spoken up for female catholic priests, we can safely concur that they are quite happy with the status quo :-) Some men, in their disillusionment or through subjugation, play the devil's advocate. Admittedly women are much smarter than the male homo sapiens. They have and wisely use their innate sixth sense :-) The article that follows sheds additional light. Pat -- MAY WOMEN KEEP ALIVE THE AWARENESS OF THEIR VOCATION VATICAN CITY, JAN 16, 2004 (VIS) - This morning the Holy Father received the participants in the national congress of the Italian Women's Center as they reflect on the theme Women as They Face the Expectations of the World. He recalled that this Center, inspired by Christian principles, makes every effort to help women in undertaking in an ever more responsible way their own role in society. Mankind today feels with increasing intensity the need to offer a sense and a scope to the world in which new problems which generate insecurity and confusion present themselves every day. The current era, he continued, marked by the rapid succession of events, has seen the growing participation of women in every sector of civil, economic and religious life, starting with the family, the first and most vital cell of human society. This calls for, on your part, a constant attention to emerging problems and a generous farsightedness in facing them. It is important, the Pope told them, for women to keep alive the awareness of this fundamental vocation: they fulfill themselves only in giving love. . Their moral and spiritual strength comes from the awareness that 'God entrusts to women in a special way man, human beings'. John Paul II underscored that it is this which above all is the mission of every women, even in the Third Millennium. Live it fully and do not allow yourselves to be discouraged by difficulties and obstacles that you might meet along the way. On the contrary, always trusting in divine help, bring it to fulfillment with joy, expressing the female 'genius' that marks you. AC/./ITALIAN WOMEN'S CENTER? ? VIS 040116 (290)
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
I don't define equality as sameness - behaving just like a man is not my idea of being equal to him. I know some women do, and they're entitled to their opinions, of course. But dressing up in a suit like a man and carrying around a briefcase like a man and working at TRADITIONALLY men's jobs is not my idea of fun OR equality. I'm secure enough as a woman to not have the need to define myself according to a male ruler. Sure, I'll never be Pope, but the Pope will never be Mom, either. I wouldn't give up THAT title for the world. Viviana George Pinto wrote: Mario and Viviana: I am afraid your logic will lead the Taliban in Afganistan and others to conclude that is ok to discriminate against women in the manner they have: that's our religion, take it or leave it. No room for ratioanl thinking, just be obedient to the Dark Ages. Here are some insights into the issue sent to me by a Goan woman by private email so I have not included her name. I am forwarding without comment.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
--- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario and Viviana: I am afraid your logic will lead the Taliban in Afganistan and others to conclude that is ok to discriminate against women in the manner they have: that's our religion, take it or leave it. No room for rational thinking, just be obedient to the Dark Ages. Here are some insights into the issue sent to me by a Goan woman by private email so I have not included her name. I am forwarding without comment. Mario replies: George, I wouldn't worry too much about the Taliban's attitude towards women if I were you. Firstly, they were blatant misogynists, not just discriminatory. Secondly, they are currently in the process of becoming obsolete. You can question the Catholic religion all you want, and make rational arguments till the cows come home, and all you'll get in return is major angst. I don't think you can dispute the fact that the Catholic Church is a take it or leave it proposition. In fact, Benedict XVI, who is now infallible in the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, and also it's leading theologian, has written that he sees no problem with a smaller church as an alternative to compromising on core values. So, there you have it. The insights by the Goan woman are reflected and duplicated by similar opinions all over the place, including some leading nuns. Makes no difference, because the Church looks at these things through different lenses. The Church alleges that women are no less than men, they just have a different role. Whether you or me or Viviana like it or not, until the Holy Ghost inspires Benedict XVI or one of his successors that something should change, it ain't gonna happen, as we say in the hood. Finally, I wish you liberal thinkers would study how democratically and well the distaff side of our Church is run when compared to the top-down it's the Pope's way or the highway governance of the priest side. Orders of nuns are largely autonomous and run from the bottom up. Every Mother Superior is elected by her peers, ambition is a demerit, and perceived leadership and personal example rules the day. In addition to studying the dabbawallahs in Mumbai, Harvard should study the governance of any Order of Nuns, each of which is a true major multi-national organization that is organized and managed better than most corporations. The Mother Superior General is elected by the regional Mother Superiors and functions like a CEO, but serves only a maximum of two, six-year terms, then goes back to the mailroom where she began. I have a cousin who is one of these amazing women and I am in total awe of the management principles and style. By the way, there are now fifteen, yes, I said fifteen, orders of nuns that are headquartered in Europe, whose Mother Superior Generals are from India. As one would expect they come from either Goa or Mangalore or Kerala. About eight of them are headquartered in Rome, the others in various other parts of Europe. If one of our journalists are interested in researching and writing about this, please let me know and I'll hook you up.
[Goanet]RE: Women Priests
Can someone donate a prize to the netter who comes up with the most convincing argument on why women shouldn't be allowed to become priests? Also, were all you guys serious with the arguments you threw up? FN Fred, the only real prize for a practicing Roman Catholic is knowing (s)he is furthering the cause of the faith of their fathers. For others, it is purely acamedic gymnastics. Empty vessels make the most sound! The excerpt that follows is self-explanatory. Pat http://www.catholic-goan-network.net -- What Benedict XVI does oppose, however, is the misuse of Vatican II to justify things the Council Fathers never proposed. Abortion, contraception, women's ordination, acceptance of homosexual behavior -- all are paraded by dissenting Catholics as natural outgrowths from the documents of the Council. But such claims are only convincing to one who has never actually read those same documents (which are thoroughly orthodox and bear no support whatsoever to such radical positions). That's when the Spirit of Vatican II makes its entrance. You see, since dissenting Catholics cannot actually find their wish list anywhere in the actual conciliar documents, they're forced to imagine a kind of trajectory from the Council -- almost as if Vatican II were a perpetual, unending event. Given enough time, the theory goes, the Fathers would have eventually embraced the theological fascinations of the Catholic Left. Don't be fooled. One of my favorite former theology professors -- certainly no conservative -- used to say that the phrase The Spirit of Vatican II really means, This is what Vatican II would have said if Vatican II were me. Just so. *** WHY WON'T SELF-HELP GURUS TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT HAPPINESS? ***What if everything you've been told about happiness is wrong? The self-help movement has turned the subject into a billion-dollar industry. And yet, those who follow the advice of the feel-good gurus will actually be farther from real happiness than they were before. Get the facts here:http://www.crisismagazine.com/truth.htm
[Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
Mario and Viviana: I am afraid your logic will lead the Taliban in Afganistan and others to conclude that is ok to discriminate against women in the manner they have: that's our religion, take it or leave it. No room for ratioanl thinking, just be obedient to the Dark Ages. Here are some insights into the issue sent to me by a Goan woman by private email so I have not included her name. I am forwarding without comment. QUOTE: 1. The bias against women and women priests comes directly from the Jewish religion. The role for women was to bear children who would be Jewish - a Jew by definition has to have a Jewish mother. Hence, even Solomon whose mother was not Jewish does not qualify as a Jew. Women had no divorce rights, they (not the men) were stoned for adultery, and there were no Jewish women priests. 2. I had a very good orthodox Jewish friend who sent her son to an exclusive Jewish school in ___. She told me that the boys said a prayer every day, thanking God that they weren't born a woman! 3. There is no evidence that Jesus established a priesthood in the Gospels. Subsequently, the Church developed a theology that seemed to point that way. But where's the evidence? Jesus was called Rabbi (Teacher) not a priest at all. The early Church had many women leaders and founders of churches. So perhaps, there should be neither men or women priests. The Protestants came to that conclusion, hence they have Ministers. After the Temple was destroyed, the Jews themselves went back to the pre-Mosaic tradition of Rabbis, not priests. 4. The idea that women are inferior was extended by theologians like Augustine and Aquinas. They wrote that women were defective males. This, I believe, is also the position in the Koran. These ideas that women are un-holy and inferior is very Middle Eastern. It is certainly not Indian. Indian spirituality places the highest spiritual value on the Feminine. In fact, the goal of Yoga is to develop and discover the feminine in all of us as the creative force. So, I have no idea why Indians like us, of all people, swallow these unwholesome and unworthy ideas about feminine inferiority. These ideas are used to put women down and keep them down, and to justify abuse of all kinds. In the 21st century, women aren't taking them seriously becasue we have more than proved our worth these days. 5. Research and reading and reflection about reality will show that we don't have to believe every single last thing that a group of self-serving men in Rome or Mecca pronounce as Truth so they can propagate a system that allows them to live in style like Princes! UNQUOTE Regards, George
[Goanet]Re: Women priests
--- Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George, I was told by the nuns in the Convent school I went to, that no one would go and confess to a female priest, as the general population is under the impression that their sins would not be held in confidence by a woman. I think that is why females are not allowed to become priests. Merwyn: Many people treat the idea that women cannot keep secrets as sexist. Let us say one had a daughter who grew up to be a CEO candidate in a major company and the Board said to her: we cannot make you CEO because we think you can't keep company secrets. Or she was denied the Prime Minister's job because she could not keep national security secrets? How would she feel? How would you feel if she was your daughter or grand-daughter or niece and that was the reason for denying her the job? Fortunately, many progressive companies and countries have kept faith with women and equality. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
Mervyn, I see you are practicing to be a stand-up comedian, but PLEASE keep your day job. George, I was told by the nuns in the Convent school I went to, that no one would go and confess to a female priest, as the general population is under the impression that their sins would not be held in confidence by a woman. I think that is why females are not allowed to become priests. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let us say one had a daughter who grew up to be a CEO candidate in a major company and the Board said to her: we cannot make you CEO because we think you can't keep company secrets. Or she was denied the Prime Minister's job because she could not keep national security secrets? How would she feel? How would you feel if she was your daughter or grand-daughter or niece and that was the reason for denying her the job? George, I don't know if I really want my daughter to have a high pressure job. The reason is that the same convent nuns also told me that work was a punishment from God, for sins committed... Many people treat the idea that women cannot keep secrets as sexist. You may be right on this one. However, the Vatican has a different view of how women should be treated. So the choices I have are: 1) I toe the Vaticans line. 2) I search for another religion where women have equal status. 3) I become a cafeteria Catholic. :-) Mervyn3.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What specific attribute that priesthood requires which women do not have? What specific conceptual difference which matters to priesthood? George, I was told by the nuns in the Convent school I went to, that no one would go and confess to a female priest, as the general population is under the impression that their sins would not be held in confidence by a woman. I think that is why females are not allowed to become priests. Mervyn3.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George, I think Viviana has said enough about this topic, with whom I agree. For some reason, you have an issue with the Roman Catholic Church as it stands today, with allegations of sexism and racism. FYI, there are as many people coming into the Roman Catholic Church as there are leaving it, precisely because it is standing firm to its teachings. I am a Catholic. That is what matters. I count not on the colour of my skin, but on the colour of my faith. As far as Man and Woman and the Religious are concerned, there are physiological *and* psychological differences. A pastoral nun fills in where a parish priest cannot fulfil his task because of his gender. And vice versa. Lay people assist where a religious would be out of his or her depth. I think I have said enough on this topic. Cheers, Gabriel. --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know if you realize it but comments like mental, physiological makeup are precisely the sexist comments that people who believe women are equal to men complain about. We are talking about roles in the church, not the physiological ability to have babies in which case there is a difference between men and women. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: Women priests
--- Gabriel de Figueiredo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do appreciate the stand of the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with considering women as inferior or not smart enough to priests. It has all to do with the mental, physiological makeup, or, to put it in other words, with the conceptual differences in ways men and women think and do (hence the courts' tendencies to give custodial rights of the children to the mother). Gabriel, I don't know if you realize it but comments like mental, physiological makeup are precisely the sexist comments that people who believe women are equal to men complain about. We are talking about roles in the church, not the physiological ability to have babies in which case there is a difference between men and women. I must confess that I am disappointed Cardinal Dias did not get elected, dismayed that the College of Cardinals cannot see beyond Europe to find a Pope, in disbelief that there are people on this forum arguing that it is ok to discriminate against women and deny them priesthood. Interestingly, it would have looked nicer on television to see Princesses of the Church, in addition to Princes, electing the Pope. There are a number of women CEOs, women Prime Ministers, women Supreme Court Justices, etc. Women do not lack intellectually, academically, etc. so I am not sure what the justification is to deny them priesthood. What specific attribute that priesthood requires which women do not have? What specific conceptual difference which matters to priesthood? It seems to me that it all boils down to sexism, self-doubt among some women and hence their opposition to priesthood, even self-hate of their gender. I do not want to say any more on this topic, except point readers to a website which discusses some of these issues. See http://www.womenpriests.org/index.asp Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
--- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While it is true there are differences between men and women, the justification for barring women from being priests is not based on anything more than sexism. Regardless of what fanciful reasons are given, hiding behind the theological reasons is the belief that women are second-class and not smart enough or good enough to be priests. That's the unfortunate message of the Catholic Church. Regards, George Hi George, My opinion, which may be flawed, is that there are places and professions which are divided on basis of sex for practical reasons, and one cannot simply state that this is sexism. Funny though, more we go towards the equality of the sexes, the more there are women-only lounges, women-only common rooms, women-only gyms, women-only swimming-pools, etc. Also, in 99% (statistics not proven) of divorce cases, it appears that custody of the children go the woman. I wonder why. Is that because in the perceived equality, there are inequalities? On the other hand, is this reverse-sexism? Men-only clubs have been wiped out. Even in lawn-bowling clubs of Melbourne, in spite of there being a women-only lawns club to cater for her, a woman took a men's lawn-bowling club to court to allow her to participate, and she won. Not that I am a member of any such club, or a contra-feminist, but only to show that there seems to be an imbalance, taking this men/women thing too far. I do appreciate the stand of the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with considering women as inferior or not smart enough to priests. It has all to do with the mental, physiological makeup, or, to put it in other words, with the conceptual differences in ways men and women think and do (hence the courts' tendencies to give custodial rights of the children to the mother). If you are married, you probably already know that what a woman says is not exactly what a man understands, and vice-versa ;-)). Regards, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: Women priests
While it is true there are differences between men and women, the justification for barring women from being priests is not based on anything more than sexism. Regardless of what fanciful reasons are given, hiding behind the theological reasons is the belief that women are second-class and not smart enough or good enough to be priests. That's the unfortunate message of the Catholic Church. Regards, George --- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: RESPONSE, Women are not equal to men and vice versa - that is my opinion. Is your intended definition broad, narrow or in respect to voting? On Apr 8, 2005 5:31 PM, George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Women still barred from priesthood (behind this justification is the implied view that women are not equal to men). Regards, George
