Re: [h-cost] Re Brocade
Hi Sharon, Thanks! Yes we post to Australia. Then shipping would range from $20 to $30 per package. Sadly our system does not really work in English yet (you cannot place an order through the shopping cart), but we do all international orders through email. As I said, this should be fixed sometime in summer. Zuzana ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Sharon Doig wrote: > From: Sharon Doig > Subject: [h-cost] Re Brocade > To: h-costume@mail.indra.com > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:49 AM > Dear Zuzana, > You have some lovely brocades on your website. Do you post > to Australia and how much would that be per metre? > > Thanks > > Sharon. > > Sharon Doig in Canberra - Australia > E: po_box_...@yahoo.com.au > > Blog: http://www.rosiesstuffnsew.blogspot.com > > Make your mark and achieve success > or, if need be, die in the attempt. > Miriam Leslie > > > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint
I would be happy too! Please tell your friend my email. I would really like to contact the woman that did all the work. i know these people are always very nice and helpful because finally there is someone who appreciates what they have done. I have been very sucessful with karen Christie, who did the conservation and research of the Burgunderrock [15-16th century, Bern, switzerland]. Thanks, Zuzana ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Mary wrote: > From: Mary > Subject: Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint > To: h-cost...@indra.com > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:53 AM > A friend of mine tracked down the > woman who did the conservation on the pourpoint who as > delighted that someone was interested in her work. She sent > my friend copies of her notes. I don't remember the name but > I would be happy to share your email with my friend. > > Mary / Slaine > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Fees for use of images
In a message dated 5/12/2010 7:05:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sha...@collierfam.com writes: Out of curiosity, how much might a copyright holder charge for permission to do this? That depends entirely on the copyright holder. Some might actually be gracious and not charge any fee at all--they might be pleasantly surprised that you made the effort to ask and would just want proper credit. Fees for use of images in publication, though, which I know about, can range from about $50 (US) per use on up to the stratosphere. (Some of the larger museums, for example, charge at least $300.) For publication, though, it depends on how big the print run is, and whether for profit or non-profit. Use of an image for some kind of product, like fabric or a pattern, is really more into the licensing area. I would say expect to pay at least $100. And, while copyright laws do vary from country to country, there are international conventions. (Not all countries are signatories--I know Taiwan used to not be, so they produced a lot of stuff we would regard as pirated. Don't know if that is still the case, so hope I haven't libeled any Taiwanese.) Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use
Okay, let's try this one more time. Suppose someone bought a yard of your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in exactly the same pattern, and selling it. Would you regard that as "fair use"? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use
I think in order to make your question more closely resemble the current issue, you need to add the words "700 years after your death." To the list in general and not specifically Ann (too lazy to do a seperate email): I left this list for a few years and have just recently returned. I witnessed these conversations way too many times. I see little has changed. Can't we just all admit that there are certain issues which are triggers for some of us and just leave it at that without having to rehash them ad nauseum? There really is no need to jump into the list with swords swinging just because someone mentioned something that happens to be close to your own personal soapbox. From: "annbw...@aol.com" To: h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 12:31:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use Okay, let's try this one more time. Suppose someone bought a yard of your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in exactly the same pattern, and selling it. Would you regard that as "fair use"? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use
I would also like to point out that no one ever said anything about copying the drawing to create the brocade-- the drawing is merely a visual aid to interpret images of the actual fabric! Astrida ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use
There are two different issues here. One is copyright, regarding making a copy of part of a book. There are other ways to get the information, for example Inter Library Loan or looking at a friend's copy. Or asking the friend if the book contains a particular thing. If one is interested in buying the book, you can read reviews. For some books, Amazon and other online sellers offer the table of contents and a representative page or three for view. After the discussions of copyright on various forums, I'm surprised when I see people offer, on a public forum, to scan and send parts of books. Likewise, when someone asks to borrow a book and then says it's because they want to copy it, I'm dismayed and do not loan it. It's not the lack of awareness about copyright (since everyone seems to be aware of it), it's the casual attitude about violating copyright. The other issue is the rights of ownership of an object. A photographer owns the copyright of their photographs, but may agree to a limited use as a condition of access. If a museum allows you to examine and make a pattern of a garment, and you sell it as "that red dress in the XYZ museum" without their permission, you could get in trouble and also limit future access for yourself and other researchers. I have seen cases of people researching and reproducing original objects. Take the Eleanora of Toledo stockings, for example. People have come up with patterns, usually adapted for their own size. If they decided to sell the pattern on a large scale, or decided to manufacture and sell the repro stockings, they may need special permission to do so. Some projects are best consulted privately, which people have done on this list. Now that we know people are interested in the pourpoint brocade, anyone on the list could grab the project and run with it. Someone might decide to do a print of the fabric on Spoonflower. Which is a third issue — if you have an idea for a commercial product, why discuss it on H-costume? We can ask if others have done a particular type of project, but why give away the details? -Carol On May 13, 2010, at 8:42 AM, Beteena Paradise wrote: I think in order to make your question more closely resemble the current issue, you need to add the words "700 years after your death." From: "annbw...@aol.com" Okay, let's try this one more time. Suppose someone bought a yard of your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in exactly the same pattern, and selling it. Would you regard that as "fair use"? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? Historical houses seem to go the reproduction method...when they can afford it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric is used for costume purposes? Also took time to check again the copywright statements on some of my patterns that include the Major 3, Fire and Smoke, Five Rivers, and a host of other designers who are working all the time to give us good renderings of patterns to inspire Historical clothing.? All are agreed in opening statements that the pattern is for personal/individual sewing and not to be used for commercial enterprise . How do these two issues get reconciled when the demand for the product exceeds the implied legal issues? -Original Message- From: "Beteena Paradise" Sent 5/13/2010 8:42:14 AM To: "Historical Costume" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair UseI think in order to make your question more closely resemble the current is sue, you need to add the words "700 years after your death." To the list in general and not specifically Ann (too lazy to do a seperate email): I left this list for?a few?years and have just recently returned. I wit nessed these conversations way too many times. I see little has changed. Ca n't we just all admit that there are certain issues which are triggers for some of us and just leave it at that without having to rehash them ad nause um? There really is no need to jump into the list with swords swinging just because someone mentioned something that happens to be close to your own p ersonal soapbox.? ? From: "annbw...@aol.com" To: h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 12:31:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use Okay, let's try this one more time.? Suppose someone bought a yard of? your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably? doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in ? exactly the same pattern, and selling it.? Would you regard that as? "f air use"? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Not getting into the whole copyright issue, as I'm not a lawyer, and it's one of the most complex laws there is, because of the international agreements (it's automatic here, btw, in the uk)... ...also as I have read the first part of the thread However, purely for the sake of clarity, libel is written, slander is spoken. In a message dated 13/05/2010 06:29:17 GMT Daylight Time, h-costume-requ...@indra.com writes: Fran, calling someone a thief before you truly know that a theft has been committed can possibly land you with a slander suit. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
I have found myself wondering about how ommercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the istorical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? ermission to sell As I mentioned in one of my posts--that is licensing. Winterthur and Williamsbug both, I am sure, have agreed to license textiles for reproduction to, say, Waverly. (Don't those fabrics even say so on the selvege, usually? I know the linens that J.P. Stevens licensed said so--they did both Williamsburg and Mount Vernon, and, I think, Historic Charleston lines, as well.) They may be exact copies, or modifications, and are often produced in several colorways. This is probably all spelled out in said licensing agreement. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: R Lloyd Mitchell To: Historical Costume Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 11:08 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how ommercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the istorical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? ermission to sell? Historical houses seem to go the reproduction method...when hey can afford it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced abric is used for costume purposes? lso took time to check again the copywright statements on some of my patterns hat include the Major 3, Fire and Smoke, Five Rivers, and a host of other esigners who are working all the time to give us good renderings of patterns to nspire Historical clothing.? All are agreed in opening statements that the attern is for personal/individual sewing and not to be used for commercial nterprise ow do these two issues get reconciled when the demand for the product exceeds he implied legal issues? Original Message- rom: "Beteena Paradise" ent 5/13/2010 8:42:14 AM o: "Historical Costume" ubject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair UseI think in order to make your question ore closely resemble the current is ue, you need to add the words "700 years after your death." o the list in general and not specifically Ann (too lazy to do a seperate mail): left this list for?a few?years and have just recently returned. I wit essed these conversations way too many times. I see little has changed. Ca 't we just all admit that there are certain issues which are triggers for ome of us and just leave it at that without having to rehash them ad nause m? There really is no need to jump into the list with swords swinging just ecause someone mentioned something that happens to be close to your own p rsonal soapbox.? ___ rom: "annbw...@aol.com" o: h-cost...@indra.com ent: Thu, May 13, 2010 12:31:07 PM ubject: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use kay, let's try this one more time.? Suppose someone bought a yard of? our ustom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably? oesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in xactly the same pattern, and selling it.? Would you regard that as? "f ir se"? nn Wass __ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume= ___ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
On May 13, 2010, at 3:08 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? Historical houses seem to go the reproduction method...when they can afford it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric is used for costume purposes? A licensing agreement between Colonial Williamsburg and Waverly. Or the historic site might hire the fabric company to make the reproduction. I don't think there is a difference if the fabric is used for costume purposes. Once I buy my yardage, they don't care if I use it for curtains, a gown, or a slipcover for my unicorn. The difference is that there are more home-decor enthusiasts than costumers out there. When looking for a market for reproductions, they go for the bigger group. Costumers will enjoy a source of period jewelry, but the museum will select the pieces that will also appeal to the general public. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
I've had to learn way more about copyright law than I ever wanted because I got into producing royalty free stock illustrations for an international company. Dealing with the copyright side of my work often takes much more time than the actual work. Since it is a truly international company, contributors have to abide by ALL international copyright laws, which means that we wind up having to follow a set of rules that are much stricter than those of any single country. Let's say that countries A through Y consider a sketch made by an artist of an existing work of art to be an original work of art. However, country Z considers this to be copyright infringement, therefore no artists contributing to this company can sell sketches of an existing work of art. OK, fine, but multiply that by about 1978302187091, and you'll get some idea of the thorniness of the situation. Even if I create a work of art without reference to absolutely anything including live models, in my own uninfluenced style, I am still open to prosecution in some countries if the end result reminds someone of some work of art they saw somewhere. An examination of previous copyright infringement lawsuits indicates that to be legally safe, artists should simply never ever ever look at anyone else's artwork, period, because if they can prove that you reasonably could have seen the existing work of art (not DID, but could have) then you are screwed. Now, I want to protect my intellectual property. I've had it stolen in the past, and I didn't like it. I put in the painfully time-consuming research time to make sure that I'm not violating copyright. But I read the draconian copyright laws that my fellow artists either A) want to implement or B) incorrectly think have already been implemented, and it makes me want to find another business entirely. Many--not all, but many--basically take the attitude that if anyone so much as thinks about their artwork, much less sees it, they should get a whopping big payment for it. It's insane, and it's killing art. Traditionally, artists have been encouraged to look at as much art as possible. While being trained, we're told to copy this painting or that style, to get a feel for how it was done. This has been going on for centuries, and has produced great works of art. If you study--even very off-handedly--the artists that, for example, we costume people spend a lot of time with, like Holbein or Duerer or Da Vinci, you'll find that they were copying each other left and right. This does not mean that the product of that copying was any less an original work of art. This does mean that by today's standards, every single great artist for the past umpteen number of centuries has been a copyright violator, and in today's courts would be metaphorically drawn and quartered for it. It makes me want to heave. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
On 5/13/2010 8:08 AM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? I suggest that you contact some of them and ask. \What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric is used for costume purposes? If you wish to copy a fabric for costume purposes, I suggest that you contact the museum from which you wish to reproduce it and ask them. If you need permission from a fabric manufacturer, ask them. Also took time to check again the copywright statements on some of my patterns that include the Major 3, Fire and Smoke, Five Rivers, and a host of other designers who are working all the time to give us good renderings of patterns to inspire Historical clothing.? All are agreed in opening statements that the pattern is for personal/individual sewing and not to be used for commercial enterprise . How do these two issues get reconciled when the demand for the product exceeds the implied legal issues? You'll have noticed that when you install software, you often have to agree to/click on a licensing agreement that says how many machines you can install that copy on and other things. Some pattern companies also put licensing agreements on their patterns. As with other permissions issues, if you wish to exceed the license you contact the manufacturer, tell them exactly what you want to do, and work something out. There is no standard price for anything--people charge whatever they wish, and they can also refuse permission to do what you want. Note that just because you think a permission is too expensive, is no reason for you to violate copyright or a licensing agreement. Usually professionals who ask for licensing agreements or permissions that don't work out, just try someone else who charges less or is more liberal about agreements. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
It makes me want to heave. But, as you've noted, the law is what you have to follow when using other people's work, not your personal standards. I have not noticed at all that art is being "killed." Certainly, in terms of publications, there is a huge increase in the number of books published in recent years, and the text and illustrations in those must also conform to copyright law. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Friday at Costume Con
Where in Arizona??? Cactus - Original Message From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger To: Historical Costume Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 10:28:51 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Friday at Costume Con Penny, Next year is in New Jersey. 2012 is in Arizona. Sandy At 12:00 AM 5/13/2010, you wrote: >We only had a chance to mingle on Friday night. The switch to cold >weather really got the better of me and Joe. We left 90 degree >weather in Richmond. Maybe next year, Arizona will be warmer. > >Penny Ladnier >Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites >www.costumegallery.com >14 websites of fashion, textiles, & costume history "Those Who Fail to Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly - Why They Are Simply Doomed." Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C. Y. 4971 Andromeda ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,"I have a book with an interesting picture." Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, "Here is an example of the piece I want to wear." -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:48 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing... > > It makes me want to heave. But, as you've noted, the law is what you have to follow when using other people's work, not your personal standards. I have not noticed at all that art is being "killed." Certainly, in terms of publications, there is a huge increase in the number of books published in recent years, and the text and illustrations in those must also conform to copyright law. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,"I have a book with an interesting picture." Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, "Here is an example of the piece I want to wear." Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Oh yes, then you're using the willful confusion argument. Looking and reading are not the same as copying. Copyright law literally governs the right to make copies. Again, all I see here is people who don't want to bother paying for material or asking permission (pirates and parasites), so they go round, and round, and round, and round, and round with arguments about why they personally shouldn't. Sorry, your feelings and your personal convenience do not govern copyright law. Fran On 5/13/2010 11:36 AM, Lavolta Press wrote: On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,"I have a book with an interesting picture." Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, "Here is an example of the piece I want to wear." Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Again, all I see here is people who don't want to bother paying for material or asking permission (pirates and parasites), so they go round, and round, and round, and round, and round with arguments about why they personally shouldn't. Sorry, your feelings and your personal convenience do not govern copyright law. Fran And, speaking of bugaboos--it's the exact same people! Every discussion, the same ones are popping up all confused about whether reading a book is the same as copying it, and so on. People explain it to them, then the next discussion they're going round, and round, and on, and on, and on, and on with it. I can only conclude that the goal is to make h-costume a cozy little warez site, where everyone pets everyone else for pirating for "the public good." Which, however, has nothing to do with what the copyright holder can do about it. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Fran, it sounds like you are saying that legally there is no such thing as "fair use." If that's not the case, could you explain what constitutes "fair use"? OChris Laning - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
No Chris, I am not going to get run around on this one yet again, diligently looking up stuff for people who say they are confused and who then go round and round being yet more confused, all to the end of asserting they can do whatever they feel like. Read some books on copyright law. Fran On 5/13/2010 12:20 PM, Chris Laning wrote: Fran, it sounds like you are saying that legally there is no such thing as "fair use." If that's not the case, could you explain what constitutes "fair use"? O Chris Laning - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
For everyone who is terribly confused, here is a place to start. http://www.copyright.gov/ Understand that copyright violation can cost you huge sums of money in damages plus attorney's fees (which also tend to be large for those kinds of cases.) It's usually best to stick with a conservative interpretation of the law unless you are willing to go pay an attorney for a legal opinion on your specific question. Dan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 150
http://missameliasminiatures.com/ -Original Message- From: h-costume-requ...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-requ...@indra.com] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 07:00 PM To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Subject: h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 150 Send h-costume mailing list submissions to h-costume@mail.indra.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to h-costume-requ...@mail.indra.com You can reach the person managing the list at h-costume-ow...@mail.indra.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of h-costume digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Brocade and Fair Usegalities (Carol Kocian) 2. Re: copyright law thing... (Elena House) 3. Re: Brocade and Fair Usegalities (Lavolta Press) 4. Re: copyright law thing... (Lavolta Press) 5. Re: Friday at Costume Con (Cactus) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:35:45 -0400 From: Carol Kocian To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; forma! t=flowed On May 13, 2010, at 3:08 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: > Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering > about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing > fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or > Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? Historical > houses seem to go the reproduction method...when they can afford > it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric > is used for costume purposes? A licensing agreement between Colonial Williamsburg and Waverly. Or the historic site might hire the fabric company to make the reproduction. I don't think there is a difference if the fabric is used for costume purposes. Once I buy my yardage, they don't care if I use it for curtains, a gown, or a slipcover for my unicorn. The difference is that there are more home-decor enthusiasts than costumers out there. When looking for a market for reproductions, they go for the bigger group. Costum! ers will enjoy a source of period jewelry, but the museum will! select the pieces that will also appeal to the general public. -Carol -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:04:48 -0400 From: Elena House To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing... Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've had to learn way more about copyright law than I ever wanted because I got into producing royalty free stock illustrations for an international company. Dealing with the copyright side of my work often takes much more time than the actual work. Since it is a truly international company, contributors have to abide by ALL international copyright laws, which means that we wind up having to follow a set of rules that are much stricter than those of any single country. Let's say that countries A through Y consider a sketch made by an artist of an existing work of art to be an original work of art. However, country Z considers this to be copyright infringement, therefore no artists cont! ributing to this company can sell sketches of an existing work of art. OK, fine, but multiply that by about 1978302187091, and you'll get some idea of the thorniness of the situation. Even if I create a work of art without reference to absolutely anything including live models, in my own uninfluenced style, I am still open to prosecution in some countries if the end result reminds someone of some work of art they saw somewhere. An examination of previous copyright infringement lawsuits indicates that to be legally safe, artists should simply never ever ever look at anyone else's artwork, period, because if they can prove that you reasonably could have seen the existing work of art (not DID, but could have) then you are screwed. Now, I want to protect my intellectual property. I've had it stolen in the past, and I didn't like it. I put in the painfully time-consuming research time to make sure that I'm not violating copyright. But I read the draconian copyright laws that my ! fellow artists either A) want to implement or B) incorrectly think hav e! already been implemented, and it makes me want to find another business entirely. Many--not all, but many--basically take the attitude that if anyone so much as thinks about their artwork, much less sees it, they should get a whopping big payment for it. It's insane, and it's killing art. Traditionally, artists have been encouraged to look at as much art as possible. While being trained, we're told to copy this painting or that style, to get a feel for how it was done. This has been going on for centuries, and has produced great works of art. If you study--even very off-handedly--the
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
I was just curious. Is it infringement if it's just to one person? For an exchange of information? -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:37 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing... On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: > I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. > Someone says,"I have a book with an interesting picture." Someone else > wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the > same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at > the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we > scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. > Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to > look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if > they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who > are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our > costume mistress and say, "Here is an example of the piece I want to wear." > Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Simple answer, yes. Although you might manage to dig through copyright law and find an exception, I wouldn't know where. > I was just curious. Is it infringement if it's just to one person? For > an exchange of information? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
thank you Anne.In conversation with a Museum Grad student this afternoon, she agreed that the 'Use" factor would be factored into the license contract and other modifications would also have to be delt with as the occasion occurred. -Original Message- From: Sent 5/13/2010 11:32:28 AM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities I have found myself wondering about how ommercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the istorical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? ermission to sell As I mentioned in one of my posts--that is licensing. Winterthur and Williamsbug both, I am sure, have agreed to license textiles for reproduction to, say, Waverly. (Don't those fabrics even say so on the selvege, usually? I know the linens that J.P. Stevens licensed said so--they did both Williamsburg and Mount Vernon, and, I think, Historic Charleston lines, as well.) They may be exact copies, or modifications, and are often produced in several colorways. This is probably all spelled out in said licensing agreement. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: R Lloyd Mitchell To: Historical Costume Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 11:08 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how ommercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the istorical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? ermission to sell? Historical houses seem to go the reproduction method...when hey can afford it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced abric is used for costume purposes? lso took time to check again the copywright statements on some of my patterns hat include the Major 3, Fire and Smoke, Five Rivers, and a host of other esigners who are working all the time to give us good renderings of patterns to nspire Historical clothing.? All are agreed in opening statements that the attern is for personal/individual sewing and not to be used for commercial nterprise ow do these two issues get reconciled when the demand for the product exceeds he implied legal issues? Original Message- rom: "Beteena Paradise" ent 5/13/2010 8:42:14 AM o: "Historical Costume" ubject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair UseI think in order to make your question ore closely resemble the current is ue, you need to add the words "700 years after your death." o the list in general and not specifically Ann (too lazy to do a seperate mail): left this list for?a few?years and have just recently returned. I wit essed these conversations way too many times. I see little has changed. Ca 't we just all admit that there are certain issues which are triggers for ome of us and just leave it at that without having to rehash them ad nause m? There really is no need to jump into the list with swords swinging just ecause someone mentioned something that happens to be close to your own p rsonal soapbox.? ___ rom: "annbw...@aol.com" o: h-cost...@indra.com ent: Thu, May 13, 2010 12:31:07 PM ubject: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use kay, let's try this one more time.? Suppose someone bought a yard of? our ustom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably? oesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in xactly the same pattern, and selling it.? Would you regard that as? "f ir se"? nn Wass __ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Such clarity. Your thoughtful explanation is of great interest to me...one of those independents who strives to do Art with originality as well as craft. The laws that have been developed are suppose to be safe=guards... -Original Message- From: "Elena House" Sent 5/13/2010 12:04:48 PM To: "Historical Costume" Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...I've had to learn way more about copyright law than I ever wanted because I got into producing royalty free stock illustrations for an international company. Dealing with the copyright side of my work often takes much more time than the actual work. Since it is a truly international company, contributors have to abide by ALL international copyright laws, which means that we wind up having to follow a set of rules that are much stricter than those of any single country. Let's say that countries A through Y consider a sketch made by an artist of an existing work of art to be an original work of art. However, country Z considers this to be copyright infringement, therefore no artists contributing to this company can sell sketches of an existing work of art. OK, fine, but multiply that by about 1978302187091, and you'll get some idea of the thorniness of the situation. Even if I create a work of art without reference to absolutely anything including live models, in my own uninfluenced style, I am still open to prosecution in some countries if the end result reminds someone of some work of art they saw somewhere. An examination of previous copyright infringement lawsuits indicates that to be legally safe, artists should simply never ever ever look at anyone else's artwork, period, because if they can prove that you reasonably could have seen the existing work of art (not DID, but could have) then you are screwed. Now, I want to protect my intellectual property. I've had it stolen in the past, and I didn't like it. I put in the painfully time-consuming research time to make sure that I'm not violating copyright. But I read the draconian copyright laws that my fellow artists either A) want to implement or B) incorrectly think have already been implemented, and it makes me want to find another business entirely. Many--not all, but many--basically take the attitude that if anyone so much as thinks about their artwork, much less sees it, they should get a whopping big payment for it. It's insane, and it's killing art. Traditionally, artists have been encouraged to look at as much art as possible. While being trained, we're told to copy this painting or that style, to get a feel for how it was done. This has been going on for centuries, and has produced great works of art. If you study--even very off-handedly--the artists that, for example, we costume people spend a lot of time with, like Holbein or Duerer or Da Vinci, you'll find that they were copying each other left and right. This does not mean that the product of that copying was any less an original work of art. This does mean that by today's standards, every single great artist for the past umpteen number of centuries has been a copyright violator, and in today's courts would be metaphorically drawn and quartered for it. It makes me want to heave. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use
Ann, Actually the technology does exist. They showed something similar on Project Runway this season. Virginia Commonwealth University had a massive machine that did this when I taught there in 2007. The instructor scanned a textile and reproduced it in no time flat. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, & costume history - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use Okay, let's try this one more time. Suppose someone bought a yard of your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that admittedly probably doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting producing their own brocade, in exactly the same pattern, and selling it. Would you regard that as "fair use"? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
Having been at this in one way or another my working lifetime, I do 'Ask' and give credit where required when using another's research or product. I consider this approach to be not only polite or facing legalities, but a way of giving credit (praise?) to the artist, scholar, merchant for "putting IT out there for the rest of us to admire..be inspired by". I think some may not understand?the implications of rules for engagement in the Design field.? -Original Message- From: "Lavolta Press" Sent 5/13/2010 12:42:51 PM To: "Historical Costume" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities On 5/13/2010 8:08 AM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: > Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how > commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? I suggest that you contact some of them and ask. \What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric is used for costume purposes? If you wish to copy a fabric for costume purposes, I suggest that you contact the museum from which you wish to reproduce it and ask them. If you need permission from a fabric manufacturer, ask them. > Also took time to check again the copywright statements on some of my > patterns that include the Major 3, Fire and Smoke, Five Rivers, and a host of other designers who are working all the time to give us good renderings of patterns to inspire Historical clothing.? All are agreed in opening statements that the pattern is for personal/individual sewing and not to be used for commercial enterprise > . > How do these two issues get reconciled when the demand for the product > exceeds the implied legal issues? You'll have noticed that when you install software, you often have to agree to/click on a licensing agreement that says how many machines you can install that copy on and other things. Some pattern companies also put licensing agreements on their patterns. As with other permissions issues, if you wish to exceed the license you contact the manufacturer, tell them exactly what you want to do, and work something out. There is no standard price for anything--people charge whatever they wish, and they can also refuse permission to do what you want. Note that just because you think a permission is too expensive, is no reason for you to violate copyright or a licensing agreement. Usually professionals who ask for licensing agreements or permissions that don't work out, just try someone else who charges less or is more liberal about agreements. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
If you are not familiar with licensing agreements, I do suggest obtaining a lawyer. There are lawyers who specialize in this area of contracts. Licensing agreements should not be taken lightly. You might check your local Small Business Administration for advice. They offer classes for a low rate. You can also obtain a mentor through the association. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, & costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
On 5/13/2010 2:30 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Such clarity. Your thoughtful explanation is of great interest to me...one of those independents who strives to do Art with originality as well as craft. The laws that have been developed are suppose to be safe=guards... And they are. There is absolutely zero evidence that "art" is being hindered in any way by copyright law or enforcement of same. Note that copyright law is intended to further art by giving artists, composers, writers, etc. a basis for getting paid. Note also that copyright law often does not mean you cannot use someone else's work. It means you may need to ask permission (which may be refused), and you may have to pay. You cannot fairly complain that use of all works is utterly stifled by it. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Friday at Costume Con
Next year is in New Jersey. 2012 is in Arizona. maybe, eh? let's hope "Papers, Please" is sorted (to the garbage heap!) soon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] book sharing, was: copyright law thing...
On May 13, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Whenever I see something about an e-mail list being a group of friends, I imagine sending a party invitation to the entire list... No, not quite. :-) I see many groups with common interests, some members of which are friends, and some are not. Someone says,"I have a book with an interesting picture." Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. Would you loan the book to your local friend? Would you drop it in the mail to someone you've never met, with the understanding they would mail it back when finished with it? If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Or you could get on Skype and hold it up to your web cam for your long-distance friend to see. That way someone can look without making a copy for them. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Friday at Costume Con
Being from Arizona, I just wish people would get their facts straight before prostesting. And that's all I'm gonna say! :) Cactus - Original Message From: Patricia Dunham To: Historical Costume Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 4:49:04 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Friday at Costume Con > >Next year is in New Jersey. 2012 is in Arizona. maybe, eh? let's hope "Papers, Please" is sorted (to the garbage heap!) soon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Inappropriate discussion
As my husband said once on an avocational list he belongs to--"I don't know the politics of most of the people on this list and I prefer to keep it that way." Let's please keep the discussion on this list to costume-related topics. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Patricia Dunham To: Historical Costume Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] Friday at Costume Con > >Next year is in New Jersey. 2012 is in Arizona. maybe, eh? let's hope "Papers, Please" is sorted (to the garbage heap!) soon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] book sharing, was: copyright law thing...
Or you could get on Skype and hold it up to your web cam for your long-distance friend to see. That way someone can look without making a copy for them. Or you can just give them the title and explain why you think it's such a good book, and let them look up reviews and bookstores on the net. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] book sharing, was: copyright law thing...
Or you could get on Skype and hold it up to your web cam for your long-distance friend to see. That way someone can look without making a copy for them. This, however, is falling victim to the "million examples" runaround. Someone asserts their desires or needs are more important than the need of the creator of the work to get paid (and also all the other people involved in creating, producing, and marketing a work). They produce an example. You counter it by explaining some workaround. Then they produce another example. You counter that. They produce another example. And on, and on, and on. When this is done, it is not a person with any sincere desire to do something without violating copyright law. It's just a runaround intended to wear out people seriously trying to explain. And as I've mentioned, it's usually the exact same people doing the same runarounds in every discussion. The bottom line is, the desire or need of someone to use someone else's work does not make them the most important person on the planet for whom special exemptions should be made. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
