Re: [H] Observations of the new Intel PC

[DHSinclair]

Soren,
Yes, was always my plan. I try to stay with the bigger names.
Right now, I am Intel/Asus/Seagate/AOpen/Sony.
And all of the I/O is happy and has been burning in fine.
Yes, I do have a pair of Sabrent pata-sata converters in the mix also.
Mostly for test; just because I am too cheap to buy brand new sata I/O.
They are working well so far. (4 more to test!)
M/B bios had to go from 0401-to-0404-to-0502. Not certain about the
last jump to 0502, but, for now, the new m/b is completely stable. I can 
live with it

at this point, and, it gives me the road-map for the next 2 machines!
In the future, I'm sure "stuff" will change.  It is the nature of the beast!
Thank you for your counsel.
Duncan

At 05:54 11/25/2008 -0500, you wrote:

I hear you.

Most new stuff is odd.

On a new MB one have to upgrade the BIOS 3-5 times before the MB works as 
advertised. Price doesn't appear to matter.


HDDs are shipped with bogus data and degraded performance, and then - 
maybe - a BIOS update.


A good hint could be sticking to the brands that tend to have a 
conservative view on specs, i.e. WD, IBM (hitachi), Asus, etc.


As long as it lasts ;)

DHSinclair wrote:
The Intel PC has finally settled down. I spent the 1st days scratching my 
head but finally upgraded the m/b bios from the default 04041 to 0404; 
and then to 0502.  This became necessary because the PC would only run 
for 20-35 minutes before it just re-booted itself. Odd.  At bios 0502 
this behavior has stopped.
It now seems that JMicron SATA logic does NOT work happily with the ICH10 
logic on the P5Q3. And, sadly, the JMicron logic owns/controls the single 
EIDE/PATA connector on the m/b (along with its' two hard drive only SATA 
connectors).  Another odd, but OK.
Initially, I tried one of the Sabrent SATA/IDE converters on my dvdrom. 
It was not recognized on the SATA connector. Once I finally decided the 
converter was toast and used a different Sabrent converter, Bingo!  The 
dvdrom (pata) is now a fully recognized SATA client!  And, I was able to 
disable the JMicron logic in bios.  The PC is now stable and has logged 
some 50hours of continuous on-time with a single glitch.  I have 
temporarily given up on JMicron. I will do more study, but for now, this 
PC will be fully SATA.
Now that the aluminum case is fully buttoned up, I have used the newest 
Asus Probe II to monitor the power, cpu temp, m/b temp, and, fan 
speeds.  Currently, my E8400 is cruising along at ~117F.  The m/b reads 
~110F, but this seems odd. Perhaps this is just where on the m/b this 
sensor lives.
The last version of Asus Probe I used was v2.04.  This new Probe II is 
hugely improved.  Certainly more eye candy, but it also seems to have 
included most/all of the old H.Oda tool for checking out a cpu and the 
associated I/O.  It now lists information about everything I have plugged 
into the m/b; in full detail!  I do like this program.
The new PC has proved that my old 160GB pata hard drive and old AOpen 
dvdrom are AOK.  I did complete a fully patched w2ksp4 install.  The OS 
is still a bit confused, but working.  I still have duplicates of
primary eide controller, primary and secondary channels, system board, 
and, what seems like too many 'm/b resources' and USB stuff.   The USB 
stuff is not an issue ATM. This m/b has 12 USB ports!  I see lots more 
USB in my future!
All in all, I am very happy with this new kit. It provides plenty of 
challenge and growth in the next several years for me. And, it runs stock 
at 3GHz which is plenty fast for what I need to do.  I will pass on 
dabbling on the AITweaker section of the bios.  I do not see a need to OC 
this PC ATM.

Just my initial impressions for now.  Suggestions and comments are welcome!
Best,
Duncan

[H] Wireless Connection Speed

[Veech]

Hey guys,

It's been quite a while, Happy Holidays!

I just had AT&T install Uverse and among the issues I have with it, they 
disconnected my DSL and installed a wireless network in my house.  So now my 
ping is way high in online games and now sometimes I get bounced off the 
servers.  Grrr...


They installed a 2Wire 3800 HGV-B modem and I have a US-G-AT-02 wireless 
receiver on my box.  The modem is upstairs and my box is downstairs but the 
distance between the two is about 15 feet.


The wireless connection icon on my toolbar says I'm getting 54Mbps, but when 
I go to 2Wire's page and run a speed test they say I'm getting around 
3.40Mbps.


Question 1 is, which is correct?  Question 2 is, how can I get better 
throughput?  The tech guy suggested running a ethernet cable from the modem 
to my box but that's a bit of a hassle.  Is there a way to improve the 
wireless efficiency?


thanks!

Veech 

Re: [H] Another reason to use NoScript - Click Jacking

[Soren]

Also known as "Scripting by Access".

The very nice util - WebWasher - that I've been shamelessly recommending ;) 
does the +same job + more.

Brian Weeden wrote:

"Click Jacking" (more formerly known as "UI Redressing" is the process where
you hide a page with links in an HTML layer behind another page.  So when
the user loads the page and thinks they are clicking on Punch the Monkey,
they are really clicking links to give someone access to their eBay account
or something similarly nefarious.

Check out this demo:

http://snipurl.com/clickjack

Fortunately, the NoScript add-on for Firefox comes with protection against
this sort of attack.  And it works whether or not you have scripting enabled
on a page.

More info for those that want to know:

http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm#168

---
Brian Weeden
Technical Consultant
Secure World Foundation 
+1 (514) 466-2756 Canada
+1 (202) 683-8534 US

Re: [H] Observations of the new Intel PC

[Soren]

I hear you.

Most new stuff is odd.

On a new MB one have to upgrade the BIOS 3-5 times before the MB works as 
advertised. Price doesn't appear to matter.

HDDs are shipped with bogus data and degraded performance, and then - maybe - a 
BIOS update.

A good hint could be sticking to the brands that tend to have a conservative 
view on specs, i.e. WD, IBM (hitachi), Asus, etc.

As long as it lasts ;)

DHSinclair wrote:
The Intel PC has finally settled down. I spent the 1st days scratching 
my head but finally upgraded the m/b bios from the default 04041 to 
0404; and then to 0502.  This became necessary because the PC would only 
run for 20-35 minutes before it just re-booted itself. Odd.  At bios 
0502 this behavior has stopped.


It now seems that JMicron SATA logic does NOT work happily with the 
ICH10 logic on the P5Q3. And, sadly, the JMicron logic owns/controls the 
single EIDE/PATA connector on the m/b (along with its' two hard drive 
only SATA connectors).  Another odd, but OK.


Initially, I tried one of the Sabrent SATA/IDE converters on my dvdrom. 
It was not recognized on the SATA connector. Once I finally decided the 
converter was toast and used a different Sabrent converter, Bingo!  The 
dvdrom (pata) is now a fully recognized SATA client!  And, I was able to 
disable the JMicron logic in bios.  The PC is now stable and has logged 
some 50hours of continuous on-time with a single glitch.  I have 
temporarily given up on JMicron. I will do more study, but for now, this 
PC will be fully SATA.


Now that the aluminum case is fully buttoned up, I have used the newest 
Asus Probe II to monitor the power, cpu temp, m/b temp, and, fan 
speeds.  Currently, my E8400 is cruising along at ~117F.  The m/b reads 
~110F, but this seems odd. Perhaps this is just where on the m/b this 
sensor lives.


The last version of Asus Probe I used was v2.04.  This new Probe II is 
hugely improved.  Certainly more eye candy, but it also seems to have 
included most/all of the old H.Oda tool for checking out a cpu and the 
associated I/O.  It now lists information about everything I have 
plugged into the m/b; in full detail!  I do like this program.


The new PC has proved that my old 160GB pata hard drive and old AOpen 
dvdrom are AOK.  I did complete a fully patched w2ksp4 install.  The OS 
is still a bit confused, but working.  I still have duplicates of  
primary eide controller, primary and secondary channels, system board, 
and, what seems like too many 'm/b resources' and USB stuff.   The USB 
stuff is not an issue ATM. This m/b has 12 USB ports!  I see lots more 
USB in my future!


All in all, I am very happy with this new kit. It provides plenty of 
challenge and growth in the next several years for me. And, it runs 
stock at 3GHz which is plenty fast for what I need to do.  I will pass 
on dabbling on the AITweaker section of the bios.  I do not see a need 
to OC this PC ATM.


Just my initial impressions for now.  Suggestions and comments are welcome!
Best,
Duncan

Re: [H] WinXP Partition size?

[Soren]

If you place progs and utils on another drive letter, 4-8 Gigs is sufficient.

That is, if the swap file is set to a static size (e.g. 1.5*RAM)

DHSinclair wrote:

What is a reasonable partition size for WinXP?
I ask this because I have watched both W2K and WinXP getting close to 
outgrowing the 4GB partitions they live on (here) ATM.


Yes, there may be much junk that I have not yet found/killed on either 
that might mitigate this question.
I do keep all %temp%, temp, and tmp directories at 'empty' as best I 
can.  I do use eraser to clear unused space also.  Still, I find the OS 
(and my stupidity) is expanding.  I did expect this; just not this fast.

Thank you,
Duncan

Re: [H] Possible new video cards

[DHSinclair]

Alex,
Thank you. I understand your value/performance metric. At this point, I 
would be happy to follow this path! It seems that the collective has soured 
on nVidia. Perhaps drivers, perhaps card architecture; I just do not know 
ATM.  All I know, is that the general "push" seems to be toward ATI.

I am playing stupid here.  I feel caught between 2 strong camps.

The last video card I did any serious research on with way back with the 
GeForce4 series cards.  I suspect a lot has changed/upgraded.  I have run 
nVidia video cards since ~1980.  I still run many.

But, the conventional wave seems to point to ATI ATM.  Have I missed something?
Thank you,
Duncan

At 19:35 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote:

I was just giving other opinions for best bang for the buck based on budget.


In what way does Nvidia does not have their shit together? I'm not partial
to either brand, only to value-performance.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DHSinclair
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:50 PM
To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Possible new video cards

Alex,
So, are you suggesting to blow off the 4670 and just focus on the 4350
until I can afford the 4780?
Thank you for the link, but I may have drawn the wrong conclusion.  I am
not opposed to an nVidia solution, but at the moment, it seems that nVidia
just does not have their sh** together.
Some words might help.
Best,
Duncan

At 13:49 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>http://www.gpureview.com/superlatives.php
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DHSinclair
>Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:50 AM
>To: Hardware Group
>Subject: [H] Possible new video cards
>
>Seeking opinions. Thinking of ordering these 2 video cards.
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127390
>
>MSI 4350/512  ~$40.00 USD
>This card would be used for bringing up new systems mostly. It could end up
>being my primary "office" video card.  I do like the 'no-far' design.  And,
>it seems to have nice mid-level power for what I do with my office machine.
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127383
>
>MSI 4670/512  ~81.00 USD
>This card would be used for my Gaming machine.  I just can not stretch the
>dollars to the 4870 ATM. But, it is still a possibility; based on the
>JoeUser search/research!
>If this card works for gaming, I may even get another (or two) and use them
>as my "basic" video card for the new P5Q3 m/b's.
>
>Suggestion welcome. The plastic is buzzing. :)
>Thank you,
>Duncan

Re: [H] Possible new video cards

[Alex]

I was just giving other opinions for best bang for the buck based on budget.


In what way does Nvidia does not have their shit together? I'm not partial
to either brand, only to value-performance.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DHSinclair
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:50 PM
To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Possible new video cards

Alex,
So, are you suggesting to blow off the 4670 and just focus on the 4350 
until I can afford the 4780?
Thank you for the link, but I may have drawn the wrong conclusion.  I am 
not opposed to an nVidia solution, but at the moment, it seems that nVidia 
just does not have their sh** together.
Some words might help.
Best,
Duncan

At 13:49 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>http://www.gpureview.com/superlatives.php
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DHSinclair
>Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:50 AM
>To: Hardware Group
>Subject: [H] Possible new video cards
>
>Seeking opinions. Thinking of ordering these 2 video cards.
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127390
>
>MSI 4350/512  ~$40.00 USD
>This card would be used for bringing up new systems mostly. It could end up
>being my primary "office" video card.  I do like the 'no-far' design.  And,
>it seems to have nice mid-level power for what I do with my office machine.
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127383
>
>MSI 4670/512  ~81.00 USD
>This card would be used for my Gaming machine.  I just can not stretch the
>dollars to the 4870 ATM. But, it is still a possibility; based on the
>JoeUser search/research!
>If this card works for gaming, I may even get another (or two) and use them
>as my "basic" video card for the new P5Q3 m/b's.
>
>Suggestion welcome. The plastic is buzzing. :)
>Thank you,
>Duncan

Re: [H] Possible new video cards

[DHSinclair]

Alex,
So, are you suggesting to blow off the 4670 and just focus on the 4350 
until I can afford the 4780?
Thank you for the link, but I may have drawn the wrong conclusion.  I am 
not opposed to an nVidia solution, but at the moment, it seems that nVidia 
just does not have their sh** together.

Some words might help.
Best,
Duncan

At 13:49 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote:

http://www.gpureview.com/superlatives.php


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DHSinclair
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:50 AM
To: Hardware Group
Subject: [H] Possible new video cards

Seeking opinions. Thinking of ordering these 2 video cards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127390

MSI 4350/512  ~$40.00 USD
This card would be used for bringing up new systems mostly. It could end up
being my primary "office" video card.  I do like the 'no-far' design.  And,
it seems to have nice mid-level power for what I do with my office machine.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127383

MSI 4670/512  ~81.00 USD
This card would be used for my Gaming machine.  I just can not stretch the
dollars to the 4870 ATM. But, it is still a possibility; based on the
JoeUser search/research!
If this card works for gaming, I may even get another (or two) and use them
as my "basic" video card for the new P5Q3 m/b's.

Suggestion welcome. The plastic is buzzing. :)
Thank you,
Duncan

Re: [H] laptopstandby

[Richard Quilhot]

Your laptop will need a wake on ring feature in the bios

Richard E. Quilhot C.N.A.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rodney Dangerfield  - "I looked up my family tree and found out I was the
sap."

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Winterlight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I use Talkworks PRO 3.0 in XP PRO as a message manager. I have, up to now,
> run one of my computers 24/7 but my electric bill is getting up to 300 per
> month despite my attempts to reduce it. The only thing I really need to keep
> running on a computer is Talkworks so I am thinking about putting it on my
> Thinkpad T23 which I now use for video surveillance during the day. When I
> turn off the surveillance  it will go to standby in 30miniutes.
>
> What I am wondering is, will Talkworks wake up if a call comes in? Does
> anybody know if this will work?
>

[H] laptopstandby

[Winterlight]

I use Talkworks PRO 3.0 in XP PRO as a message manager. I have, up to 
now, run one of my computers 24/7 but my electric bill is getting up 
to 300 per month despite my attempts to reduce it. The only thing I 
really need to keep running on a computer is Talkworks so I am 
thinking about putting it on my Thinkpad T23 which I now use for 
video surveillance during the day. When I turn off the 
surveillance  it will go to standby in 30miniutes.


What I am wondering is, will Talkworks wake up if a call comes in? 
Does anybody know if this will work? 

Re: [H] Possible new video cards

[Alex]

http://www.gpureview.com/superlatives.php


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DHSinclair
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:50 AM
To: Hardware Group
Subject: [H] Possible new video cards

Seeking opinions. Thinking of ordering these 2 video cards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127390

MSI 4350/512  ~$40.00 USD
This card would be used for bringing up new systems mostly. It could end up 
being my primary "office" video card.  I do like the 'no-far' design.  And, 
it seems to have nice mid-level power for what I do with my office machine.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127383

MSI 4670/512  ~81.00 USD
This card would be used for my Gaming machine.  I just can not stretch the 
dollars to the 4870 ATM. But, it is still a possibility; based on the 
JoeUser search/research!
If this card works for gaming, I may even get another (or two) and use them 
as my "basic" video card for the new P5Q3 m/b's.

Suggestion welcome. The plastic is buzzing. :)
Thank you,
Duncan

[H] Possible new video cards

[DHSinclair]

Seeking opinions. Thinking of ordering these 2 video cards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127390

MSI 4350/512  ~$40.00 USD
This card would be used for bringing up new systems mostly. It could end up 
being my primary "office" video card.  I do like the 'no-far' design.  And, 
it seems to have nice mid-level power for what I do with my office machine.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127383

MSI 4670/512  ~81.00 USD
This card would be used for my Gaming machine.  I just can not stretch the 
dollars to the 4870 ATM. But, it is still a possibility; based on the 
JoeUser search/research!
If this card works for gaming, I may even get another (or two) and use them 
as my "basic" video card for the new P5Q3 m/b's.


Suggestion welcome. The plastic is buzzing. :)
Thank you,
Duncan

Re: [H] Observations of the new Intel PC

[DHSinclair]

j.,
Your comments are duly noted. Thank you. more inline below..

At 06:12 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote:
My asus Rampage uses all ICH9 support for SATA and the the JMicron just 
for a single PATA port. Should not be an issue getting them to work unless 
you have RAID or ACH enabled in the BIOS causing issues due to non-HDD 
devices attached.


Understand. Your Rampage and my P5Q3 appear to be wired a bit 
differently.  Not an issue. I do not enable RAID; and, when I did try [ACH] 
the board no longer saw my bootable hard drive (just like Brian 
mentioned).  Switching the SATA bios setting back to [enhanced/ide] brought 
the hard drive and dvdrom back to bear again. The UM is very lean on 
explaining this 3-choice switch in bios.  I will spend time in the future 
with independent reviewers of this level of AMI bios.  I have not seen an 
AMI bios since ~1975. Something new to learn; I have 3 of these m/b's, so I 
will have 3 machines with similar logic.



Farenheight readings mean nothing in the computer world, give us some 
Ceilcus numbers. There's 3 base temps CPU diode (real temp), CPU (mobo 
temp under socket), case (mobo ambient temp). Then you get into the NB, SB 
temps.


OK. Sorry about that. I was aware the collective has switched to 
Celsius.  ATM, my new test platform is currently doing 48C (buttoned-up). 
I'll assume this may be idle because the only app running is Probe II.  The 
motherboard temp is 44C (buttoned-up.  I do not see a 'case temp', and I 
know nothing about the NB or SB ATM.  This m/b seems to be greatly stripped 
down from that vastly more expensive Pro, Deluxe, and Wifi versions of the 
same m/b.  The good news is that this m/b has everything I believe I will 
need now and in the near future.  Yes, these boards may lack a boatload of 
other creature features, but I do not have a use for those ATM.  It is a 
P45x and uses DDR3.  That is a good start for me. And, it is (so far) 
stable as a brick.



Probe sucks big time & no real replacement exists that is 1. free, 2. 
reads all the sensors. Probe tends to prevent use of a networked printer. 
Also Beware of AITuner, etc... apps as FUD.


I do hope we can agree to disagree. Yet again, LOL!  I will accept your 
review of Probe in any/all of it's permutations. I will accept that it may 
have some trouble, but I have used it without trouble for the past 10 years 
without loosing a single PC to some 'faulty' display reading.  I do not run 
Probe 24/7; I run it when I am curious about basic power or fan condition 
(w/o rebooting to bios).


So far, Probe has alerted me to 6 suspect psu's going south (over the 
years), and, more dying cooling fans than I can count.  I appreciate your 
share, but I will continue to use Probe.  In the end, I was just sharing my 
impression about how much more improved Probe II is vs. the old Probe 
v2.2.04 I use on my other Asus-based machines.  I may yet try to load Probe 
II on one of my other machines.  I expect trouble, but it could be interesting!

Best,
Duncan





DHSinclair wrote:
The Intel PC has finally settled down. I spent the 1st days scratching my 
head but finally upgraded the m/b bios from the default 04041 to 0404; 
and then to 0502.  This became necessary because the PC would only run 
for 20-35 minutes before it just re-booted itself. Odd.  At bios 0502 
this behavior has stopped.
It now seems that JMicron SATA logic does NOT work happily with the ICH10 
logic on the P5Q3. And, sadly, the JMicron logic owns/controls the single 
EIDE/PATA connector on the m/b (along with its' two hard drive only SATA 
connectors).  Another odd, but OK.
Initially, I tried one of the Sabrent SATA/IDE converters on my dvdrom. 
It was not recognized on the SATA connector. Once I finally decided the 
converter was toast and used a different Sabrent converter, Bingo!  The 
dvdrom (pata) is now a fully recognized SATA client!  And, I was able to 
disable the JMicron logic in bios.  The PC is now stable and has logged 
some 50hours of continuous on-time with a single glitch.  I have 
temporarily given up on JMicron. I will do more study, but for now, this 
PC will be fully SATA.
Now that the aluminum case is fully buttoned up, I have used the newest 
Asus Probe II to monitor the power, cpu temp, m/b temp, and, fan 
speeds.  Currently, my E8400 is cruising along at ~117F.  The m/b reads 
~110F, but this seems odd. Perhaps this is just where on the m/b this 
sensor lives.
The last version of Asus Probe I used was v2.04.  This new Probe II is 
hugely improved.  Certainly more eye candy, but it also seems to have 
included most/all of the old H.Oda tool for checking out a cpu and the 
associated I/O.  It now lists information about everything I have plugged 
into the m/b; in full detail!  I do like this program.
The new PC has proved that my old 160GB pata hard drive and old AOpen 
dvdrom are AOK.  I did complete a fully patched w2ksp4 install.  The OS 
is still a bit confused, but working.  I still have dup

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[al]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

Al

Re: [H] Video card question

[Brian Weeden]

AMD cards are great - I've been buying them exclusively for the last several
years.  It's their drivers that are crap (although to be fair, Nvidia's are
far from perfect as well, but AMD's are worse still).

---
Brian Weeden
Technical Consultant
Secure World Foundation 
+1 (514) 466-2756 Canada
+1 (202) 683-8534 US


On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:35 AM, maccrawj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You think ATI is ruining AMD? Excuse me for the insult, but you are a moron
> sir! Read a bit about AMD's business practices and their effect on both
> companies.
>
> If you're insinuating that ATI video cards are sub-par, then you've been
> drinking NV cool-aid while ignoring reviews & benchmarks.
>
>
> FORC5 wrote:
>
>> other way around me thinks
>> fp
>> :'(
>> At 11:07 AM 11/20/2008, maccrawj Poked the stick with:
>>
>>> Stan is taking about AMD/ATI's video cards I assume. AMD now owns (and so
>>> far is ruining) ATI.
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [H] Video card question

[maccrawj]

You think ATI is ruining AMD? Excuse me for the insult, but you are a moron sir! Read 
a bit about AMD's business practices and their effect on both companies.


If you're insinuating that ATI video cards are sub-par, then you've been drinking NV 
cool-aid while ignoring reviews & benchmarks.


FORC5 wrote:

other way around me thinks
fp
:'(
At 11:07 AM 11/20/2008, maccrawj Poked the stick with:

Stan is taking about AMD/ATI's video cards I assume. AMD now owns (and so far 
is ruining) ATI.

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[Jason.Tozer]

2 x HD4850 are arguably better for a lot of people.

The 4850 blows all previous arguments against dual gfx cards out of the
water..the price/performance ratio on them is outstanding.

I personally use the 4870x2 but I have a 30" display to run, which ties
my hands somewhat.

Still, I'd prefer nVidia to match the price/performance figures that AMD
are currently forging as the AMD drivers leave a LOT to be desired. The
AMD tech is also still a stride or 2 behind nVidias.needing to
sandwich 2 GPUs together to beat nVidia tells the real story.

At least there is a choice now I guess :P


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of maccrawj
Sent: 24 November 2008 14:39
To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

For multi-GPU on a P35 the HDx870X2's (3 or 4 series) are the only way.

Also need to watch for dead air issues in the card cage area on some
cases with these 
beasts.

No matter what, avoid Sapphire!!!

James Boswell wrote:
> hi,
> 
> Your P35 chipset mainboard doesn't support SLI, it DOES support 
> crossfire, you can run a pair of radeons (the X2 notwithstanding,
whilst 
> that uses crossfire, it's a single board and will work on anything
with 
> a PCI-E slot) but a second Geforce will only operate in a "drive
another 
> monitor" capacity
> 
> the 4870 1GB is also a very big performance hike over an 8800GTX, but 
> the 4870X2 is totally in a world of it's own as far as sheer 
> maximumfastness goes.
> One thing to watch for is, a full length dual height heatsink can
cause 
> issues with SATA ports...
> 
> *googles*
> 
> Looks like your ports are out of the overlap zone though.
> My P5K-E/Wifi-AP is.. not so lucky :(
> 


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Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[maccrawj]

Right now is wrong time to buy a card as the 2x0's & the HD48xx series are so new 
that prices are too high. Arguments have been made that 2x0 being cheaper is better 
way to go, I say wait for prices to level off before making that mistake.


The reason to buy such a highend card is two fold: 1. ample speed for today, enough 
for tomorrow, 2. to be upgrade proof long enough to justify investment. Even if #1 
has you looking lower, #2 is reason to wait & buy highend.


Joe User wrote:

Hello Raul,

Monday, November 24, 2008, 4:04:29 AM, you wrote:


Far Cry 2 and the ATI and nVidia cards:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3463&p=1


This gives a better perspective, I may not waste my money on an X2.
Seems like way overkill for WoW. Sad no one does tests with WoW
anymore. Thanks thanks and thanks again for all these links and help.

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[DHSinclair]

Yes, so did I. Shocked I was!
Duncan

At 07:29 11/24/2008 -0700, you wrote:

saw an add for a new Tombraider game on TV the other day.
fp

At 05:56 PM 11/23/2008, DHSinclair Poked the stick with:
>Al,
>Perhaps MS Flight Sim in a demo mode; MS train sim in a demo mode, Sim City.
>Hard to say. I most play the old Tomb Raider games I never finished.
>Duncan

--
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Gene Police: Hey YOU! Get out of this pool.

Re: [H] Video card question

[FORC5]

experience, every ATI card I ever dealt with either new install, upgrade or 
whatever has been a PITA

I try real hard not to slam my thumb in the car door more then once
fp


At 07:35 AM 11/24/2008, maccrawj Poked the stick with:
>You think ATI is ruining AMD? Excuse me for the insult, but you are a moron 
>sir! Read a bit about AMD's business practices and their effect on both 
>companies.
>
>If you're insinuating that ATI video cards are sub-par, then you've been 
>drinking NV cool-aid while ignoring reviews & benchmarks.
>
>FORC5 wrote:
>>other way around me thinks
>>fp
>>:'(
>>At 11:07 AM 11/20/2008, maccrawj Poked the stick with:
>>>Stan is taking about AMD/ATI's video cards I assume. AMD now owns (and so 
>>>far is ruining) ATI.
>
>-- 
>Tallyho ! ]:8)
>Taglines below !
>--
>Gene Police: Hey YOU! Get out of this pool.

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[maccrawj]

Blah blah, it's always a moving target, there will be a driver update. Of course Ubi 
is moronic to begin with & I'd not be surprised if they developed on/for NV which is 
the ultimate source of the problem. Developing for one brand is a practice that's 
needs to stop as it's screwing the customer.




Raul Limos wrote:

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Stan Zaske <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I feel the same way. I just want a single card powerful enough to play
modern games on my 24" monitor and leave it at that.


Far Cry 2 and the ATI and nVidia cards:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3463&p=1

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[maccrawj]

For multi-GPU on a P35 the HDx870X2's (3 or 4 series) are the only way.

Also need to watch for dead air issues in the card cage area on some cases with these 
beasts.


No matter what, avoid Sapphire!!!

James Boswell wrote:

hi,

Your P35 chipset mainboard doesn't support SLI, it DOES support 
crossfire, you can run a pair of radeons (the X2 notwithstanding, whilst 
that uses crossfire, it's a single board and will work on anything with 
a PCI-E slot) but a second Geforce will only operate in a "drive another 
monitor" capacity


the 4870 1GB is also a very big performance hike over an 8800GTX, but 
the 4870X2 is totally in a world of it's own as far as sheer 
maximumfastness goes.
One thing to watch for is, a full length dual height heatsink can cause 
issues with SATA ports...


*googles*

Looks like your ports are out of the overlap zone though.
My P5K-E/Wifi-AP is.. not so lucky :(

Re: [H] Svchost.exe issues.

[maccrawj]

Also consider it could be the network card drivers.

Brian Weeden wrote:

A while back I was running into a similar issue with svchost taking up a lot
of CPU resources and it turned out to be a bug in windows update (a race
condition I think).


From what I can gather, svchost is involved in a lot of network stack

operations so you might want to use a tool like Wireshark to see if the CPU
spike corresponds to network activity.

Re: [H] USB cable for external drive.

[maccrawj]

Yeah, it's a RF choke and beneficial but required assuming the entire signal path 
from PC to device is clean enough.


Booting could be an issue since you are adding an extra device into the path between 
host & device that the BIOS may not be able to cope with.


Be careful using long and/or cheap USB cables as they do have length limits which can 
be drastically shortened by noise & attenuation.


Bobby Heid wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

So the little choke looking thing on the USB cable does not really do
anything?

I do have an older M/B.  I'll check the BIOS when I am able to reboot.

Thanks,
Bobby

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Winterlight
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:06 PM
To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] USB cable for external drive.



connected to a powered USB hub on my desktop
because it will not reach my PC.  Can I safely replace the USB cable that
came with the unit with a standard 6-foot USB cable?


Yes, USB is USB.

Also, why will my pc not boot when I have the external drive that is plugged

into the hub and powered on?


Some older motherboards are like that. If you have a USB drive 
plugged in and active they hang at post. Trying configuring your BIOS 
boot sequence to include that drive.

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[FORC5]

saw an add for a new Tombraider game on TV the other day.
fp

At 05:56 PM 11/23/2008, DHSinclair Poked the stick with:
>Al,
>Perhaps MS Flight Sim in a demo mode; MS train sim in a demo mode, Sim City.
>Hard to say. I most play the old Tomb Raider games I never finished.
>Duncan

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Gene Police: Hey YOU! Get out of this pool.

Re: [H] Opinion of this video card?

[maccrawj]

Or save some bread and get a pair of 3870X2's now that they are dirt cheap. ;)

Joe User wrote:

Hello al,

Saturday, November 22, 2008, 1:58:58 PM, you wrote:


On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 2:05 PM, DHSinclair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127384


Pick the card you want, it's on me.



Thanks,
Al



Go for two 4870X2's man, $1060 for the pair. It's a steal esp. if hes
buying.

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[Joe User]

Hello Raul,

Monday, November 24, 2008, 4:04:29 AM, you wrote:

> Far Cry 2 and the ATI and nVidia cards:
> http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3463&p=1

This gives a better perspective, I may not waste my money on an X2.
Seems like way overkill for WoW. Sad no one does tests with WoW
anymore. Thanks thanks and thanks again for all these links and help.

-- 
Regards,
 joeuser - Still looking for the 'any' key...

"...now these points of data make a beautiful line..."

Re: [H] Seeking links to SATA/EIDE converters?

[maccrawj]

I told you when you 1st asked, good PATA-SATA briges are $30+ depending on who's 
bridge chip it is and I don't care who chimes in with "Hong Kong Fooies brand works 
fine @ $6", you get what you pay for in hardware & support.


IMHO it's better to spend the same ($30+) bucks getting good PATA-USB2 or PATA-1394 
(Oxford, Inito) bridges and leave the SATA ports for what they are best suited for: 
HDD. This is also why I cut back to two PATA devices when I rebuilt because it was 
not worth investing in bridgeboards.



DHSinclair wrote:
OK, I now own 6 Sabrent SBT-SCIDE sata/eide converters.  2 are in use. 1 
is now suspect. 3 remain untested.
I spoke with Sabrent today. They have no technical knowledge of their 
own product. Freely admitted that this product is a cheap knock-off of 
other "more expensive" products in the pipeline ATM. Bummer.


So, what are these other "more expensive" converters?  I have a link to 
HyperMicrosystems for $19 each, but it clearly states that it only works 
with hard drives.  I am looking for reliable converters for both hard 
drives and cdrom/dvdrom/burner that are pata-based.


I will test the rest of my stack tonight. Newegg and I will settle up 
next week if necessary.

Thank you,
Duncan

Re: [H] Rosewill controller

[maccrawj]

Open the INF file & make sure the right ID's are listed compared to what the system 
has detected.


Sometimes you have to tell windows a driver is for a device explicitly depending on 
how badly the driver is written. Likely Rosewill did not make this card themselves, 
so I'd be looking into the OEM driver or vice-versa being concerned with the driver 
you have being the OEM generic that Rosewill neglected to updated the INF to match 
their PID.


Winterlight wrote:
About 18 months ago I wanted to add external SATA ports to one of my 
PCs. Newegg had a sale plus rebate deal on a Rosewill RC-209 that was 
too good  to ignore... I think after I got the rebate it cost me 15 
bucks. It is a 4 port RAID controller that can be set up with or without 
external ports in just about any configuration you want. This is done by 
hardware jumpers. They now have a RC-209 EX that is, according to their 
site, identical with the one difference of < hot swapable> external ports.


18 months ago I tried to install it on a straightforward and 100 percent 
compatible / reliable Intel 865PERL motherboard.  I couldn't get it 
installed because windows wouldn't recognize it and match it to the 
driver. I tried moving it to other PCI slots with or without an 
internal, or external drive configuration. Nothing worked. I wrote tech 
support who never bothered to reply and eventually I decided that it had 
to be something tweaked in XP2, so I pulled the card, and forgot about it.


Now I am redoing that computer for another job, and I have it in another 
case, PS, video card, everything is new to the board including a new 
install of XP2 and, like usual it runs great. So I thought I would try 
the Rosewill again. Same problem. It is acting like a device that I am 
trying to install the wrong driver to, like I have the b version of the 
hardware and I am trying to install the d version drivers. I can force a 
install but I end up with a yellow triangle.


The driver is 11 months old and there is a wide range of drivers posted 
for everything from 98 through Vista 64. This time, after the correct 
driver failed, I tried installing the driver for the new RC-209 EX 
version, then I tried installing the driver for the onboard chip = SI 
3114 , and while windows let me force the install, it also yellow 
triangeled.


Any ideas?


BTW Rosewill sucks, Cheap crappy hardware.

Re: [H] Observations of the new Intel PC

[maccrawj]

My asus Rampage uses all ICH9 support for SATA and the the JMicron just for a single 
PATA port. Should not be an issue getting them to work unless you have RAID or ACH 
enabled in the BIOS causing issues due to non-HDD devices attached.


Farenheight readings mean nothing in the computer world, give us some Ceilcus 
numbers. There's 3 base temps CPU diode (real temp), CPU (mobo temp under socket), 
case (mobo ambient temp). Then you get into the NB, SB temps.


Probe sucks big time & no real replacement exists that is 1. free, 2. reads all the 
sensors. Probe tends to prevent use of a networked printer. Also Beware of AITuner, 
etc... apps as FUD.



DHSinclair wrote:
The Intel PC has finally settled down. I spent the 1st days scratching 
my head but finally upgraded the m/b bios from the default 04041 to 
0404; and then to 0502.  This became necessary because the PC would only 
run for 20-35 minutes before it just re-booted itself. Odd.  At bios 
0502 this behavior has stopped.


It now seems that JMicron SATA logic does NOT work happily with the 
ICH10 logic on the P5Q3. And, sadly, the JMicron logic owns/controls the 
single EIDE/PATA connector on the m/b (along with its' two hard drive 
only SATA connectors).  Another odd, but OK.


Initially, I tried one of the Sabrent SATA/IDE converters on my dvdrom. 
It was not recognized on the SATA connector. Once I finally decided the 
converter was toast and used a different Sabrent converter, Bingo!  The 
dvdrom (pata) is now a fully recognized SATA client!  And, I was able to 
disable the JMicron logic in bios.  The PC is now stable and has logged 
some 50hours of continuous on-time with a single glitch.  I have 
temporarily given up on JMicron. I will do more study, but for now, this 
PC will be fully SATA.


Now that the aluminum case is fully buttoned up, I have used the newest 
Asus Probe II to monitor the power, cpu temp, m/b temp, and, fan 
speeds.  Currently, my E8400 is cruising along at ~117F.  The m/b reads 
~110F, but this seems odd. Perhaps this is just where on the m/b this 
sensor lives.


The last version of Asus Probe I used was v2.04.  This new Probe II is 
hugely improved.  Certainly more eye candy, but it also seems to have 
included most/all of the old H.Oda tool for checking out a cpu and the 
associated I/O.  It now lists information about everything I have 
plugged into the m/b; in full detail!  I do like this program.


The new PC has proved that my old 160GB pata hard drive and old AOpen 
dvdrom are AOK.  I did complete a fully patched w2ksp4 install.  The OS 
is still a bit confused, but working.  I still have duplicates of  
primary eide controller, primary and secondary channels, system board, 
and, what seems like too many 'm/b resources' and USB stuff.   The USB 
stuff is not an issue ATM. This m/b has 12 USB ports!  I see lots more 
USB in my future!


All in all, I am very happy with this new kit. It provides plenty of 
challenge and growth in the next several years for me. And, it runs 
stock at 3GHz which is plenty fast for what I need to do.  I will pass 
on dabbling on the AITweaker section of the bios.  I do not see a need 
to OC this PC ATM.


Just my initial impressions for now.  Suggestions and comments are welcome!
Best,
Duncan

Re: [H] Non booting case

[maccrawj]

Forget Duncan's insight, well intentioned but only vaguely accurate. That's not how 
you'd go about testing this issue since the power good line of the PSU is showing OK 
as the system powers up & stays on depending on case orientation.


When you say "start" I assume you mean "power" button jumper header on the mobo, I 
would not concern myself with metering the voltage across this jumper. Shorting it 
either powers on the system or it doesn't. Normally diagnosis of it & the switch is 
manually shorting the mobo's powersw pins but you've replaced the switch anyway.


Most likely something is loose that should be screwed down or the ATX power connector 
is not seated solidly into the mobo socket. Hence stand it on end, something shifts.


Sam Franc wrote:

Thanks,
Do you have any idea what pin on the 24 pin power connector provides the 
connection to turn on the power supply.

Sam

Re: [H] In-win

[maccrawj]

Time was when that was all I'd build with, that time being 1995 dunno if they're 
still as good. One thing for sure they're not as sexy as Coolemaster, Thermaltake, etc...


PSU's were Sparkle or Enermax if memory serves.

Thane Sherrington wrote:

Are In-win cases and power supplies any good?

T

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[Joe User]

Hello Stan,

Sunday, November 23, 2008, 8:48:46 PM, you wrote:

> I feel the same way. I just want a single card powerful enough to play
> modern games on my 24" monitor and leave it at that. Have you got "Wrath
> of the Lich King" yet?

Yeah I preordered collectors from Amazon and then did a midnight
release for another copy at a Gamestop.

-- 
Regards,
 joeuser - Still looking for the 'any' key...

"...now these points of data make a beautiful line..."

Re: [H] Video card upgrade time

[Raul Limos]

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Stan Zaske <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I feel the same way. I just want a single card powerful enough to play
> modern games on my 24" monitor and leave it at that.

Far Cry 2 and the ATI and nVidia cards:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3463&p=1