Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
One issue with parallels, which is probably a blessing in disguise, I cannot seem to get the networking to go. I tried both ways it suggested in the RTFM but neither worked. I was just going to activate XP and lock it back down but I can always call it in. joeuser wrote: I can't stand to listen to either of those bought and paid for idiots, but thank god there were transcripts. I downloaded and installed parallels - wow - awesome. I summarily dismissed the XP partition and life is GREAT! Parallels runs fast and without hiccups or issues*. *If you download the package of the front page it will not work but if you download the RC2 it works great. What a cinch to install and operate. Lovely! Boot camp (dual boot OSX and WinXP) WARNINGS This is beta software and it shows. I had to install USB keyboard and mouse which negates the wireless iMac stuff (bleh) while things worked ok it was still a pain in the ass. Also holding the option button at startup (which is supposed to allow you to choose the OS) didn't work for me. So I had to direct it from the current OS - it sucked. Having used Parallels - I would not ever go back to Boot Camp. A couple of bumps along the road but still loving this iMac. Thanks for the info Brian, appreciate it. Next question... AV software? I read viruses and malware no issues right now but I am sure I read there were some viruses out there... Suggestions? Brian Weeden wrote: Take a listen to this podcast where they talk about how to setup Parallels so you can run Windows apps on your Mac without dualbooting: http://www.twit.tv/node/4548 On 9/30/06, joeuser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One word... WOW! iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iWork '06 preinstalled 250GB Serial ATA Drive SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English) ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. Some things I noticed... Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged Gateway mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in the boy's room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have only one line connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was soft, flexible and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by default though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through the wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. Heavy into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is different - it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key) -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key)
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
I can't stand to listen to either of those bought and paid for idiots, but thank god there were transcripts. I downloaded and installed parallels - wow - awesome. I summarily dismissed the XP partition and life is GREAT! Parallels runs fast and without hiccups or issues*. *If you download the package of the front page it will not work but if you download the RC2 it works great. What a cinch to install and operate. Lovely! Boot camp (dual boot OSX and WinXP) WARNINGS This is beta software and it shows. I had to install USB keyboard and mouse which negates the wireless iMac stuff (bleh) while things worked ok it was still a pain in the ass. Also holding the option button at startup (which is supposed to allow you to choose the OS) didn't work for me. So I had to direct it from the current OS - it sucked. Having used Parallels - I would not ever go back to Boot Camp. A couple of bumps along the road but still loving this iMac. Thanks for the info Brian, appreciate it. Next question... AV software? I read viruses and malware no issues right now but I am sure I read there were some viruses out there... Suggestions? Brian Weeden wrote: Take a listen to this podcast where they talk about how to setup Parallels so you can run Windows apps on your Mac without dualbooting: http://www.twit.tv/node/4548 On 9/30/06, joeuser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One word... WOW! iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iWork '06 preinstalled 250GB Serial ATA Drive SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English) ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. Some things I noticed... Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged Gateway mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in the boy's room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have only one line connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was soft, flexible and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by default though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through the wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. Heavy into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is different - it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key) -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key)
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Oh, so most manufactures don't make cards for a common bus, interface standard & supply windows drivers? Odd, I thought that was the case. Choice, as in what to choose is complicated. Ben Ruset wrote: > I would hardly call the PC hardware landscape "simple." > > > > j maccraw wrote: >> it's not anti-apple, it's pro-consumer, pro-choice, >> and promotes price >> competition on hardware not too mention giving MS a >> run for their money. >> >> Dump on MS all you want, they deserve it, but they did >> unify & simplify >> the PC market w/o imposing "use our hardware or >> nothing' on the market. >> >> >> Anthony Q. Martin wrote: >>> I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware >> as what you call PCs >>> why haven't they already captured this slice? >>> >>> Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone >> on the shelf or >>> licence it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then >> there would be no >>> "APPLE". >>> >>> I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) >>> >>> No point in being frustrated and don't expect >> changes until Jobs dies. :) >>> >> >> >> __ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
I like Windows XP but despise Microsoft! Sadly, @ this point in time nothing else competes but I would give OSX a shot if Apple ever came out with a try-before-you-buy version. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: Well let me take a shot at answering your question. Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Although I don't own a mac I would say that there are enough applications that do the same thing on macs as they do on windows. Email, web browsing, games, office productivity, graphics, video editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a mac. I don't play many games and I am aware it is lacking full support there. But can you name a few type of apps that are not available on macs? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stan Zaske Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:28 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... That's a crap answer Bryan (lol) and you know it! Instead of showing your bias why not answer my ? instead. You can't argue with market share Einstein! ;-) Bryan Seitz wrote: On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 11:42:43PM -0500, Stan Zaske wrote: I don't get it! Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Am I missing something here? Do Window's apps run on OSX? Cause windows is a giant flaming turd that has been shined up over the years. It's still a turd.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
I would hardly call the PC hardware landscape "simple." j maccraw wrote: it's not anti-apple, it's pro-consumer, pro-choice, and promotes price competition on hardware not too mention giving MS a run for their money. Dump on MS all you want, they deserve it, but they did unify & simplify the PC market w/o imposing "use our hardware or nothing' on the market. Anthony Q. Martin wrote: I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call PCs why haven't they already captured this slice? Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or licence it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no "APPLE". I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs dies. :) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
it's not anti-apple, it's pro-consumer, pro-choice, and promotes price competition on hardware not too mention giving MS a run for their money. Dump on MS all you want, they deserve it, but they did unify & simplify the PC market w/o imposing "use our hardware or nothing' on the market. Anthony Q. Martin wrote: > I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call PCs > why haven't they already captured this slice? > > Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or > licence it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no > "APPLE". > > I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) > > No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs dies. :) > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Here here! Not too mention then I could role-my-own instead of paying top $$$ for their cookie cutter hardware. Chris Reeves wrote: > I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more convinced I > am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but because if Apple > would get off it's high horse and decide to be a software maker, it could > sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC market, and be an instant > competitor. > > Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played with > OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and the thing > runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card from them in. I've > seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The thing works and runs smooth on > most hardware, because at it's heart, it's linux type core still handles it. > > Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant slice of > the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they do well (6% of > total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to be an option for any PC > owner, they could capture a big slice of it as they'd have a lot more > adopters of their product. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Here here! Not too mention then I could role-my-own instead of paying top $$$ for their cookie cutter hardware. Chris Reeves wrote: > I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more convinced I > am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but because if Apple > would get off it's high horse and decide to be a software maker, it could > sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC market, and be an instant > competitor. > > Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played with > OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and the thing > runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card from them in. I've > seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The thing works and runs smooth on > most hardware, because at it's heart, it's linux type core still handles it. > > Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant slice of > the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they do well (6% of > total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to be an option for any PC > owner, they could capture a big slice of it as they'd have a lot more > adopters of their product. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a mac. It is not personal home use applications that limit Apple. It is the thousands of proprietary business applications. Software for dentists, software for Vets, for real estate brokers, for hair salons, service stations, grocery stores, you name it. These are expensive, proprietary software that you are never going to find for Apple, or Linux for that matter. Maybe you can run it on top of a Apple, or dual boot, but what business is going to do that. A business will load up their business software in the morning, and use it all day, rarely loading anything else. I don't see this changing.
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
Really? When looking at the API it looked super simple and very flexible. What exactly do you want to do? A map of directions you traveled? Or a dot of places you were? I would create different ones for different purposes. You could probably pretty easily write a trip selection thing so that it just maps your trips for you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:43 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... It's kind of a bitch to get Google Maps working with topo maps, which are the most important thing for me. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: > Oh that's really cool. If it were me I would dump to xml then just > create a webpage with google's api and write a little script to import > and superimpose onto google map. That way its platform independent. But > that's cool that your gps can do that.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
It's kind of a bitch to get Google Maps working with topo maps, which are the most important thing for me. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: Oh that's really cool. If it were me I would dump to xml then just create a webpage with google's api and write a little script to import and superimpose onto google map. That way its platform independent. But that's cool that your gps can do that.
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
Oh that's really cool. If it were me I would dump to xml then just create a webpage with google's api and write a little script to import and superimpose onto google map. That way its platform independent. But that's cool that your gps can do that. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:40 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... Well, GPS as in "let me connect my Garmin GPS to my computer and download all of my waypoints and tracks, superimpose them on a topo map or satellite photos, etc." Something like what I can do with USA Photomaps. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: > GPS as in the navigation? Or am I wa off on that? > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:53 AM > To: The Hardware List > Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... > > GPS apps are lacking for Mac's. That's about the only thing I think I > would miss. > > Mesdaq, Ali wrote: >> Well let me take a shot at answering your question. >> Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows >> apps out there that won't run on it? >> >> Although I don't own a mac I would say that there are enough >> applications that do the same thing on macs as they do on windows. >> Email, web browsing, games, office productivity, graphics, video >> editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I >> personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a >> mac. I don't play many games and I am aware it is lacking full support >> there. But can you name a few type of apps that are not available on >> macs? > >
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Well, GPS as in "let me connect my Garmin GPS to my computer and download all of my waypoints and tracks, superimpose them on a topo map or satellite photos, etc." Something like what I can do with USA Photomaps. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: GPS as in the navigation? Or am I wa off on that? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:53 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... GPS apps are lacking for Mac's. That's about the only thing I think I would miss. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: Well let me take a shot at answering your question. Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Although I don't own a mac I would say that there are enough applications that do the same thing on macs as they do on windows. Email, web browsing, games, office productivity, graphics, video editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a mac. I don't play many games and I am aware it is lacking full support there. But can you name a few type of apps that are not available on macs?
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
GPS as in the navigation? Or am I wa off on that? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:53 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... GPS apps are lacking for Mac's. That's about the only thing I think I would miss. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: > Well let me take a shot at answering your question. > Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows > apps out there that won't run on it? > > Although I don't own a mac I would say that there are enough > applications that do the same thing on macs as they do on windows. > Email, web browsing, games, office productivity, graphics, video > editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I > personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a > mac. I don't play many games and I am aware it is lacking full support > there. But can you name a few type of apps that are not available on > macs?
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
GPS apps are lacking for Mac's. That's about the only thing I think I would miss. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: Well let me take a shot at answering your question. Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Although I don't own a mac I would say that there are enough applications that do the same thing on macs as they do on windows. Email, web browsing, games, office productivity, graphics, video editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a mac. I don't play many games and I am aware it is lacking full support there. But can you name a few type of apps that are not available on macs?
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
Well let me take a shot at answering your question. Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Although I don't own a mac I would say that there are enough applications that do the same thing on macs as they do on windows. Email, web browsing, games, office productivity, graphics, video editing, etc. I used to make that same argument all the time but I personally cant think of anything that I use that can't be done on a mac. I don't play many games and I am aware it is lacking full support there. But can you name a few type of apps that are not available on macs? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stan Zaske Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:28 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... That's a crap answer Bryan (lol) and you know it! Instead of showing your bias why not answer my ? instead. You can't argue with market share Einstein! ;-) Bryan Seitz wrote: > On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 11:42:43PM -0500, Stan Zaske wrote: > >> I don't get it! Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a >> million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Am I missing >> something here? Do Window's apps run on OSX? >> > > Cause windows is a giant flaming turd that has been shined up > over the years. It's still a turd. > >
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
That's a crap answer Bryan (lol) and you know it! Instead of showing your bias why not answer my ? instead. You can't argue with market share Einstein! ;-) Bryan Seitz wrote: On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 11:42:43PM -0500, Stan Zaske wrote: I don't get it! Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Am I missing something here? Do Window's apps run on OSX? Cause windows is a giant flaming turd that has been shined up over the years. It's still a turd.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Actually, I agree with you, Ben. Ben Ruset wrote: :: Anthony Q. Martin wrote: :: ::: Yeah, 6% could very well be a lot of units, but it still a small ::: slice of the pie! And remember, we're basically talking Windows vs ::: APPLE, here. APPLEs OS could ship on Gateways, Dells, and ::: HP/Compaq, etc. too. :: :: For Apple to start to ship on mainstream machines, you'd have to see :: far more driver support from 3rd parties. :: :: Microsoft realized that 9 out of 10 crashes in Windows are due to :: shitty drivers written by hack programmers. The whole WHQL thing was :: created by Microsoft to solve the problem, and even then, they still :: stink. :: :: Once you start diluting OSX with crap drivers, it's going to become :: just as awful as Windows is. The idea that the OS and hardware are :: so tightly integrated together that things "just work" is a huge :: selling point for Apple. :: :: I reloaded Windows on my laptop and spent about an hour and a half :: downloading and installing drivers to get it to work. When I bought :: my wife's Mac Mini, I can have the OS installed and everything :: configured in 15 minutes. :: :: Finally, Apple makes a really healthy profit on their hardware. If :: you unbundle the OS from the hardware, what's the incentive to buy :: Apple hardware? Sure, it looks cool but most savvy people will want :: to get the best deal. Then, Apple has to make their margins from the :: OS. I can tell you something - Microsoft isn't getting rich selling :: Windows licenses. :: :: It would be extremely stupid for Apple to unbundle OSX from the Mac :: platform.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Yeah, I've been playing with Vista, and so far am not impressed. I would take OSX over Vista if Apple would sell it to us . >> >>To a point yes, stability. >>However the interface is still light years ahead of Win. Vista... what a >>huge letdown. -- JRS<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Please remove **X** to reply... ...Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult...
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 09:32:00AM -0400, Ben Ruset wrote: > Anthony Q. Martin wrote: > > >Yeah, 6% could very well be a lot of units, but it still a small slice > >of the pie! And remember, we're basically talking Windows vs APPLE, > >here. APPLEs OS could ship on Gateways, Dells, and HP/Compaq, etc. too. > > For Apple to start to ship on mainstream machines, you'd have to see far > more driver support from 3rd parties. > > Microsoft realized that 9 out of 10 crashes in Windows are due to shitty > drivers written by hack programmers. The whole WHQL thing was created by > Microsoft to solve the problem, and even then, they still stink. > > Once you start diluting OSX with crap drivers, it's going to become just > as awful as Windows is. The idea that the OS and hardware are so tightly > integrated together that things "just work" is a huge selling point for > Apple. To a point yes, stability. However the interface is still light years ahead of Win. Vista... what a huge letdown. -- Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 11:42:43PM -0500, Stan Zaske wrote: > I don't get it! Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a > million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Am I missing > something here? Do Window's apps run on OSX? Cause windows is a giant flaming turd that has been shined up over the years. It's still a turd. -- Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Anthony Q. Martin wrote: Yeah, 6% could very well be a lot of units, but it still a small slice of the pie! And remember, we're basically talking Windows vs APPLE, here. APPLEs OS could ship on Gateways, Dells, and HP/Compaq, etc. too. For Apple to start to ship on mainstream machines, you'd have to see far more driver support from 3rd parties. Microsoft realized that 9 out of 10 crashes in Windows are due to shitty drivers written by hack programmers. The whole WHQL thing was created by Microsoft to solve the problem, and even then, they still stink. Once you start diluting OSX with crap drivers, it's going to become just as awful as Windows is. The idea that the OS and hardware are so tightly integrated together that things "just work" is a huge selling point for Apple. I reloaded Windows on my laptop and spent about an hour and a half downloading and installing drivers to get it to work. When I bought my wife's Mac Mini, I can have the OS installed and everything configured in 15 minutes. Finally, Apple makes a really healthy profit on their hardware. If you unbundle the OS from the hardware, what's the incentive to buy Apple hardware? Sure, it looks cool but most savvy people will want to get the best deal. Then, Apple has to make their margins from the OS. I can tell you something - Microsoft isn't getting rich selling Windows licenses. It would be extremely stupid for Apple to unbundle OSX from the Mac platform.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Chris Reeves wrote: :: Right now is the perfect time in the grand scheme of things to do :: it. Apple will stick to their hardware plan. Good for them. And :: they can keep their 6% of the market, while Microsoft sticks with :: their 80%+. And people will piss and moan about what a monopoly MS :: has and how it's so bad, etc. etc. and how MS controls developers :: and software releases, etc. etc. etc. But remember this: MS has no :: competition in the marketspace not because it's impossible to :: compete with them, but because Apple, which has the means to, elects :: not to compete. :: :: And that, IMHO, is stupid. Er, it may be stupidbut tiny apple apparently doesn't want to rouse the not-so-sleepy giant. MS has a lot of muscle it could flex against apple if they moved directly. I think they are forced into a "coy" posture. Yeah, they can be happy with their 6% or consider getting crushed out of existance. Point: this has to happen very very slowly.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Ben Ruset wrote: :: Compared to what? Dell? 6% is small compared to 94%. What else can you compare to. :: :: How big of a slice does Gateway have now? How big does HP/Compaq :: have? :: :: In the grand scheme of things, 6% is a LOT of units to move. Sure it :: doesn't compete with Dell, but we're not talking Systemax levels :: here, either. Yeah, 6% could very well be a lot of units, but it still a small slice of the pie! And remember, we're basically talking Windows vs APPLE, here. APPLEs OS could ship on Gateways, Dells, and HP/Compaq, etc. too. :: :: Thane Sherrington wrote: ::: At 01:03 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting bigger every day. ::: ::: 6% might be a lot of computers, but it's a very small slice. ::: ::: T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
At 02:07 AM 03/10/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, yiur just making my point for me. The reason why there are millions of windows apps and not as many osx apps is because apple is 6%. IMHO that's where apple is screwing up. They could immediately capture a wider audience for people who don't need the millions of apps but want simple and as their market prescence grows so would the value of their partnership agreements. I'm saying the reason why windows has those millions of app is because anyone can run it. I'm saying apple could grow a great deal, they just chose not to and that's stupid You're bang on Chris. If they decide to stay small, at some point someone will come along and eat their lunch. Sooner or later a Linux distro or MS will get the "user experience" of the Mac OS right and then it's over for Apple. (I have no idea what this user experience is - never used one, probably never will, since I don't have time to learn a new OS that will only sell about 20 computer in my market in a year - another problem with 6% of the market.) T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
At 11:15 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: Compared to what? Dell? When you use percentages, you're comparing to the entire market. 6% is a niche market. Sure it might be a lot of computers, but trust me, Apple wants to more than just a bit player. How big of a slice does Gateway have now? How big does HP/Compaq have? Apple doesn't compete against just Gateway or Dell or HP/Compaq. It competes against Wintel. T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
No, yiur just making my point for me. The reason why there are millions of windows apps and not as many osx apps is because apple is 6%. IMHO that's where apple is screwing up. They could immediately capture a wider audience for people who don't need the millions of apps but want simple and as their market prescence grows so would the value of their partnership agreements. I'm saying the reason why windows has those millions of app is because anyone can run it. I'm saying apple could grow a great deal, they just chose not to and that's stupid CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless -Original Message- From: Stan Zaske <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 23:42:43 To:The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... I don't get it! Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Am I missing something here? Do Window's apps run on OSX? Chris Reeves wrote: > You're comparing the wrong way. > > Apple at 6% equals OS/X at 5%, people running earlier (say OS9) at 1%.. > Linux at 9%-10%, and MICROSOFT (not Dell, Gateway, etc.) at 80% or something > crazy. > > Here's the thing: OS/X makes up such a small slice of the overall mindspace > it's still a second-tier development for a great number of products. That's > the issue. > > Nobody sits around and thinks how to develop a unique product for Dell or > Gateway, they think about a product for Windows, OS/X, Linux. In that > environment, 6% -is- an issue. > > It's not a matter of how many units a single company moves, which is doesn't > matter, it's how wide a percentage their OS represents within the > marketspace. > > Microsoft represents say, 80%. What does that mean? It means more > developers pay them money to get MS Logos. More developers pay them for > tool kits. It means more products get developed with MS development kits. > It means MS has more, and far more lucrative, partner programs. > > I know of TWO apple developers locally who pay into Apple. I know of > several hundred Windows developers in the metro who pay yearly fees to MS. > > That's the difference. You're comparing Apple to Dell. That's not an > issue. I'm saying Apple to MSFT. And that's where I don't get Apple's > philosophy. I've seen OS/X run on a standard Dell box straight from the > development disc from Apple with just a PCI card to make it go "OK". And > there are tons of floating "hacked" versions on the net. > > The thing is, if Apple wanted to get off of it's "our hardware is cool" > would be a hell of a lot more profitable if they opened up and allowed OS/X > to go open. OS/X in an open, sellable format would get more adopters - > which means more partner revenue for Apple, more developers, and a broader > installed base to draw from. That's what apple needs. > > Right now is the perfect time in the grand scheme of things to do it. Apple > will stick to their hardware plan. Good for them. And they can keep their > 6% of the market, while Microsoft sticks with their 80%+. And people will > piss and moan about what a monopoly MS has and how it's so bad, etc. etc. > and how MS controls developers and software releases, etc. etc. etc. But > remember this: MS has no competition in the marketspace not because it's > impossible to compete with them, but because Apple, which has the means to, > elects not to compete. > > And that, IMHO, is stupid. > > CW > > >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset >> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:15 PM >> To: The Hardware List >> Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... >> >> Compared to what? Dell? >> >> How big of a slice does Gateway have now? How big does HP/Compaq have? >> >> In the grand scheme of things, 6% is a LOT of units to move. Sure it >> doesn't compete with Dell, but we're not talking Systemax levels here, >> either. >> >> Thane Sherrington wrote: >> >>> At 01:03 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: >>> >>>> 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting >>>> bigger every day. >>>> >>> 6% might be a lot of computers, but it's a very small slice. >>> >>> T >>> >>> > >
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
I don't get it! Why would I buy OSX to run on my PC when there are a million Windows apps out there that won't run on it? Am I missing something here? Do Window's apps run on OSX? Chris Reeves wrote: You're comparing the wrong way. Apple at 6% equals OS/X at 5%, people running earlier (say OS9) at 1%.. Linux at 9%-10%, and MICROSOFT (not Dell, Gateway, etc.) at 80% or something crazy. Here's the thing: OS/X makes up such a small slice of the overall mindspace it's still a second-tier development for a great number of products. That's the issue. Nobody sits around and thinks how to develop a unique product for Dell or Gateway, they think about a product for Windows, OS/X, Linux. In that environment, 6% -is- an issue. It's not a matter of how many units a single company moves, which is doesn't matter, it's how wide a percentage their OS represents within the marketspace. Microsoft represents say, 80%. What does that mean? It means more developers pay them money to get MS Logos. More developers pay them for tool kits. It means more products get developed with MS development kits. It means MS has more, and far more lucrative, partner programs. I know of TWO apple developers locally who pay into Apple. I know of several hundred Windows developers in the metro who pay yearly fees to MS. That's the difference. You're comparing Apple to Dell. That's not an issue. I'm saying Apple to MSFT. And that's where I don't get Apple's philosophy. I've seen OS/X run on a standard Dell box straight from the development disc from Apple with just a PCI card to make it go "OK". And there are tons of floating "hacked" versions on the net. The thing is, if Apple wanted to get off of it's "our hardware is cool" would be a hell of a lot more profitable if they opened up and allowed OS/X to go open. OS/X in an open, sellable format would get more adopters - which means more partner revenue for Apple, more developers, and a broader installed base to draw from. That's what apple needs. Right now is the perfect time in the grand scheme of things to do it. Apple will stick to their hardware plan. Good for them. And they can keep their 6% of the market, while Microsoft sticks with their 80%+. And people will piss and moan about what a monopoly MS has and how it's so bad, etc. etc. and how MS controls developers and software releases, etc. etc. etc. But remember this: MS has no competition in the marketspace not because it's impossible to compete with them, but because Apple, which has the means to, elects not to compete. And that, IMHO, is stupid. CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:15 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... Compared to what? Dell? How big of a slice does Gateway have now? How big does HP/Compaq have? In the grand scheme of things, 6% is a LOT of units to move. Sure it doesn't compete with Dell, but we're not talking Systemax levels here, either. Thane Sherrington wrote: At 01:03 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting bigger every day. 6% might be a lot of computers, but it's a very small slice. T
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
You're comparing the wrong way. Apple at 6% equals OS/X at 5%, people running earlier (say OS9) at 1%.. Linux at 9%-10%, and MICROSOFT (not Dell, Gateway, etc.) at 80% or something crazy. Here's the thing: OS/X makes up such a small slice of the overall mindspace it's still a second-tier development for a great number of products. That's the issue. Nobody sits around and thinks how to develop a unique product for Dell or Gateway, they think about a product for Windows, OS/X, Linux. In that environment, 6% -is- an issue. It's not a matter of how many units a single company moves, which is doesn't matter, it's how wide a percentage their OS represents within the marketspace. Microsoft represents say, 80%. What does that mean? It means more developers pay them money to get MS Logos. More developers pay them for tool kits. It means more products get developed with MS development kits. It means MS has more, and far more lucrative, partner programs. I know of TWO apple developers locally who pay into Apple. I know of several hundred Windows developers in the metro who pay yearly fees to MS. That's the difference. You're comparing Apple to Dell. That's not an issue. I'm saying Apple to MSFT. And that's where I don't get Apple's philosophy. I've seen OS/X run on a standard Dell box straight from the development disc from Apple with just a PCI card to make it go "OK". And there are tons of floating "hacked" versions on the net. The thing is, if Apple wanted to get off of it's "our hardware is cool" would be a hell of a lot more profitable if they opened up and allowed OS/X to go open. OS/X in an open, sellable format would get more adopters - which means more partner revenue for Apple, more developers, and a broader installed base to draw from. That's what apple needs. Right now is the perfect time in the grand scheme of things to do it. Apple will stick to their hardware plan. Good for them. And they can keep their 6% of the market, while Microsoft sticks with their 80%+. And people will piss and moan about what a monopoly MS has and how it's so bad, etc. etc. and how MS controls developers and software releases, etc. etc. etc. But remember this: MS has no competition in the marketspace not because it's impossible to compete with them, but because Apple, which has the means to, elects not to compete. And that, IMHO, is stupid. CW > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:15 PM > To: The Hardware List > Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... > > Compared to what? Dell? > > How big of a slice does Gateway have now? How big does HP/Compaq have? > > In the grand scheme of things, 6% is a LOT of units to move. Sure it > doesn't compete with Dell, but we're not talking Systemax levels here, > either. > > Thane Sherrington wrote: > > At 01:03 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: > >> 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting > >> bigger every day. > > > > 6% might be a lot of computers, but it's a very small slice. > > > > T > >
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Compared to what? Dell? How big of a slice does Gateway have now? How big does HP/Compaq have? In the grand scheme of things, 6% is a LOT of units to move. Sure it doesn't compete with Dell, but we're not talking Systemax levels here, either. Thane Sherrington wrote: At 01:03 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting bigger every day. 6% might be a lot of computers, but it's a very small slice. T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
At 01:03 PM 02/10/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting bigger every day. 6% might be a lot of computers, but it's a very small slice. T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
6 % is a small slice, a very small slice. The fact that it can get much, much bigger is what ought to be driving APPLE, were it not for their desire to remain unique somehow. Ben Ruset wrote: :: 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting :: bigger every day. :: :: Thane Sherrington wrote: ::: At 11:34 AM 02/10/2006, Mesdaq, Ali wrote: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple software ::: ::: And their tight integration and stability has won them 6% ::: of the market. So it's not working as a business strategy. ::: ::: Here's my guess: Apple ignores the inevitable hacking of OS X that ::: occurs and let's hard core users beta test it out on a variety of ::: hardware. Once the kinks are worked out (and not on Apple's dime) ::: they can say "oh well, we have to release it, there are so many ::: people clamouring for it." ::: ::: T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
6 % is a small slice, a very small slice. The fact that it can get much, much bigger is what ought to be driving APPLE, were it not for their desire to remain unique somehow. Ben Ruset wrote: :: 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting :: bigger every day. :: :: Thane Sherrington wrote: ::: At 11:34 AM 02/10/2006, Mesdaq, Ali wrote: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple software ::: ::: And their tight integration and stability has won them 6% ::: of the market. So it's not working as a business strategy. ::: ::: Here's my guess: Apple ignores the inevitable hacking of OS X that ::: occurs and let's hard core users beta test it out on a variety of ::: hardware. Once the kinks are worked out (and not on Apple's dime) ::: they can say "oh well, we have to release it, there are so many ::: people clamouring for it." ::: ::: T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
- Original Message - From: "Ben Ruset" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Hardware List" Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... 6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting bigger every day. Thane Sherrington wrote: At 11:34 AM 02/10/2006, Mesdaq, Ali wrote: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple software And their tight integration and stability has won them 6% of the market. So it's not working as a business strategy. Here's my guess: Apple ignores the inevitable hacking of OS X that occurs and let's hard core users beta test it out on a variety of hardware. Once the kinks are worked out (and not on Apple's dime) they can say "oh well, we have to release it, there are so many people clamouring for it." T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
6% of the entire PC market is a pretty big slice. And it's getting bigger every day. Thane Sherrington wrote: At 11:34 AM 02/10/2006, Mesdaq, Ali wrote: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple software And their tight integration and stability has won them 6% of the market. So it's not working as a business strategy. Here's my guess: Apple ignores the inevitable hacking of OS X that occurs and let's hard core users beta test it out on a variety of hardware. Once the kinks are worked out (and not on Apple's dime) they can say "oh well, we have to release it, there are so many people clamouring for it." T
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
Well image how much testing you have to do when your only hardware is about 10 different configurations as compared to 1 million different configs. The real reason windows has those really bad crashes ie bluescreens and what not is because of driver level (ring 0) code that's running on the machine. If everything was in the userland windows can very easily manage that and simple apps that crash will only crash themselves as is the case right now with userland apps. But its those drivers that suck that bring down systems. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Q. Martin Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 8:08 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... I think that's a good point, if it really holds up. Does the hardware really make that much difference? I thought it was better to have a layer between the OS and the hardware to make hardware transparent (did they ever really happen?). Back in the old days (DOS), having a close connection between software and hardware was a big problem if you changed hardware, so it would *seem* this is a good point. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: :: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE :: advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open :: it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple :: software and its thrown onto to some crappy hardware and it starts :: having problems just like any OS would you really think osx is that :: cool? The things that make apple cool in these days is runs *nix, :: tight integration with hardware means its super stable, looks cool, :: and just works (hardware related again). :: :: I do like the options of throwing it on a super setup but I think :: that should be something offered by apple. :: :: -Original Message- :: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:51 AM :: To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com :: Subject: RE: [H] iMac arrived today... :: :: I personally think it will come sooner then most expect. :: :: Apple are pretty silly (IMO) to not sell the OS for all PC users as :: they are :: letting everyone know that their new Macs are just PCslook we :: have Intel :: CPUs and you can load Windows XPbut its still a Mac... :: :: Other then the Apple badge and OSX, there is nothing to :: differentiate an Apple from a generic PC now and IMO, that can and :: will undermine the whole :: Apple idea. :: :: Also, with more and more ppl looking at Hackintoshes and with EFI :: motherboards due for release, they may find that its better to sell :: the OS, :: rather then have lots of ppl pirating it and running it on non-Apple :: hardware. :: :: Regards, :: :: Jason Tozer :: Database Analyst :: London :: Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 :: :: :: -Original Message- :: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Q. :: Martin :: Sent: 02 October 2006 14:46 :: To: The Hardware List :: Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... :: :: :: I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call :: PCs why :: haven't they already captured this slice? :: :: Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or :: licence :: it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no "APPLE". :: :: I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) :: :: No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs :: dies. :) :: :: :: Chris Reeves wrote: I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more convinced I am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but because if Apple would get off it's high horse and decide to be a software maker, it could sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC market, and be an instant competitor. Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played with OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and the thing runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card from them in. I've seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The thing works and runs smooth on most hardware, because at it's heart, it's linux type core still handles it. Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant slice of the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they do well (6% of total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to be an option for any PC owner, they could capture a big slice of it as they'd have a lot more adopters of their product. CW : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- : [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz : Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:50 PM : To: The Hardware List : Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... : : On Sun
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Thane Sherrington wrote: :: At 11:34 AM 02/10/2006, Mesdaq, Ali wrote: ::: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE ::: advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open ::: it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your ::: apple software :: :: And their tight integration and stability has won them 6% of :: the market. So it's not working as a business strategy. :: :: Here's my guess: Apple ignores the inevitable hacking of OS X that :: occurs and let's hard core users beta test it out on a variety of :: hardware. Once the kinks are worked out (and not on Apple's dime) :: they can say "oh well, we have to release it, there are so many :: people clamouring for it." Shis would be smart from a developer's POV, no?
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
I think that's a good point, if it really holds up. Does the hardware really make that much difference? I thought it was better to have a layer between the OS and the hardware to make hardware transparent (did they ever really happen?). Back in the old days (DOS), having a close connection between software and hardware was a big problem if you changed hardware, so it would *seem* this is a good point. Mesdaq, Ali wrote: :: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE :: advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open :: it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple :: software and its thrown onto to some crappy hardware and it starts :: having problems just like any OS would you really think osx is that :: cool? The things that make apple cool in these days is runs *nix, :: tight integration with hardware means its super stable, looks cool, :: and just works (hardware related again). :: :: I do like the options of throwing it on a super setup but I think :: that should be something offered by apple. :: :: -Original Message- :: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:51 AM :: To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com :: Subject: RE: [H] iMac arrived today... :: :: I personally think it will come sooner then most expect. :: :: Apple are pretty silly (IMO) to not sell the OS for all PC users as :: they are :: letting everyone know that their new Macs are just PCslook we :: have Intel :: CPUs and you can load Windows XPbut its still a Mac... :: :: Other then the Apple badge and OSX, there is nothing to :: differentiate an Apple from a generic PC now and IMO, that can and :: will undermine the whole :: Apple idea. :: :: Also, with more and more ppl looking at Hackintoshes and with EFI :: motherboards due for release, they may find that its better to sell :: the OS, :: rather then have lots of ppl pirating it and running it on non-Apple :: hardware. :: :: Regards, :: :: Jason Tozer :: Database Analyst :: London :: Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 :: :: :: -Original Message- :: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Q. :: Martin :: Sent: 02 October 2006 14:46 :: To: The Hardware List :: Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... :: :: :: I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call :: PCs why :: haven't they already captured this slice? :: :: Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or :: licence :: it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no "APPLE". :: :: I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) :: :: No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs :: dies. :) :: :: :: Chris Reeves wrote: I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more convinced I am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but because if Apple would get off it's high horse and decide to be a software maker, it could sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC market, and be an instant competitor. Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played with OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and the thing runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card from them in. I've seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The thing works and runs smooth on most hardware, because at it's heart, it's linux type core still handles it. Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant slice of the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they do well (6% of total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to be an option for any PC owner, they could capture a big slice of it as they'd have a lot more adopters of their product. CW : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- : [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz : Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:50 PM : To: The Hardware List : Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... : : On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 09:45:52AM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: :: 1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our :: more demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high :: end applications over to Precision 690s. : : right, the new ones are core duo based or in the case of the g5, : Dual Xeon. : :: 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance :: Jane Doe gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. :: The Macs would shit themselves over the name change and :: everything would go haywire. : : Yeah lol. : :: We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and :: 30 inch LCDs. : : U
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
At 11:34 AM 02/10/2006, Mesdaq, Ali wrote: One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple software And their tight integration and stability has won them 6% of the market. So it's not working as a business strategy. Here's my guess: Apple ignores the inevitable hacking of OS X that occurs and let's hard core users beta test it out on a variety of hardware. Once the kinks are worked out (and not on Apple's dime) they can say "oh well, we have to release it, there are so many people clamouring for it." T
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
It would be nice. :) I would buy OSX instead of Vista for my PC if they offered it. :) >>I personally think it will come sooner then most expect. >> >>Apple are pretty silly (IMO) to not sell the OS for all PC users as they are >>letting everyone know that their new Macs are just PCslook we have Intel >>CPUs and you can load Windows XPbut its still a Mac... >> >>Other then the Apple badge and OSX, there is nothing to differentiate an >>Apple from a generic PC now and IMO, that can and will undermine the whole >>Apple idea. >> >>Also, with more and more ppl looking at Hackintoshes and with EFI >>motherboards due for release, they may find that its better to sell the OS, >>rather then have lots of ppl pirating it and running it on non-Apple >>hardware. >> >>Regards, >> >>Jason Tozer >>Database Analyst >>London >>Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 -- JRS<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Please remove **X** to reply... ...Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult...
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
One advantage apple has over MS and keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage is tight integration with hardware. As soon as they open it up they will lose major stability. Now imagine you buy your apple software and its thrown onto to some crappy hardware and it starts having problems just like any OS would you really think osx is that cool? The things that make apple cool in these days is runs *nix, tight integration with hardware means its super stable, looks cool, and just works (hardware related again). I do like the options of throwing it on a super setup but I think that should be something offered by apple. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:51 AM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] iMac arrived today... I personally think it will come sooner then most expect. Apple are pretty silly (IMO) to not sell the OS for all PC users as they are letting everyone know that their new Macs are just PCslook we have Intel CPUs and you can load Windows XPbut its still a Mac... Other then the Apple badge and OSX, there is nothing to differentiate an Apple from a generic PC now and IMO, that can and will undermine the whole Apple idea. Also, with more and more ppl looking at Hackintoshes and with EFI motherboards due for release, they may find that its better to sell the OS, rather then have lots of ppl pirating it and running it on non-Apple hardware. Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Q. Martin Sent: 02 October 2006 14:46 To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call PCs why haven't they already captured this slice? Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or licence it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no "APPLE". I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs dies. :) Chris Reeves wrote: :: I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more :: convinced I am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but :: because if Apple would get off it's high horse and decide to be a :: software maker, it could sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC :: market, and be an instant competitor. :: :: Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played :: with OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and :: the thing runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card :: from them in. I've seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The :: thing works and runs smooth on most hardware, because at it's heart, :: it's linux type core still handles it. :: :: Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant :: slice of the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they :: do well (6% of total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to :: be an option for any PC owner, they could capture a big slice of it :: as they'd have a lot more adopters of their product. :: :: CW :: ::: -Original Message- ::: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- ::: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz ::: Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:50 PM ::: To: The Hardware List ::: Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... ::: ::: On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 09:45:52AM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: 1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our more demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high end applications over to Precision 690s. ::: ::: right, the new ones are core duo based or in the case of the g5, ::: Dual Xeon. ::: 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance Jane Doe gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. The Macs would shit themselves over the name change and everything would go haywire. ::: ::: Yeah lol. ::: We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and 30 inch LCDs. ::: ::: Unf. ::: ::: -- ::: ::: Bryan G. Seitz *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office. This firm is not authorised by the Financial Services Authority. However, we are included on the Register maintained by the Financial Services Authority so that w
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
I personally think it will come sooner then most expect. Apple are pretty silly (IMO) to not sell the OS for all PC users as they are letting everyone know that their new Macs are just PCslook we have Intel CPUs and you can load Windows XPbut its still a Mac... Other then the Apple badge and OSX, there is nothing to differentiate an Apple from a generic PC now and IMO, that can and will undermine the whole Apple idea. Also, with more and more ppl looking at Hackintoshes and with EFI motherboards due for release, they may find that its better to sell the OS, rather then have lots of ppl pirating it and running it on non-Apple hardware. Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Q. Martin Sent: 02 October 2006 14:46 To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call PCs why haven't they already captured this slice? Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or licence it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no "APPLE". I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs dies. :) Chris Reeves wrote: :: I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more :: convinced I am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but :: because if Apple would get off it's high horse and decide to be a :: software maker, it could sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC :: market, and be an instant competitor. :: :: Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played :: with OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and :: the thing runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card :: from them in. I've seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The :: thing works and runs smooth on most hardware, because at it's heart, :: it's linux type core still handles it. :: :: Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant :: slice of the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they :: do well (6% of total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to :: be an option for any PC owner, they could capture a big slice of it :: as they'd have a lot more adopters of their product. :: :: CW :: ::: -Original Message- ::: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- ::: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz ::: Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:50 PM ::: To: The Hardware List ::: Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... ::: ::: On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 09:45:52AM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: 1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our more demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high end applications over to Precision 690s. ::: ::: right, the new ones are core duo based or in the case of the g5, ::: Dual Xeon. ::: 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance Jane Doe gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. The Macs would shit themselves over the name change and everything would go haywire. ::: ::: Yeah lol. ::: We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and 30 inch LCDs. ::: ::: Unf. ::: ::: -- ::: ::: Bryan G. Seitz *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office. This firm is not authorised by the Financial Services Authority. However, we are included on the Register maintained by the Financial Services Authority so that we can carry on insurance mediation activity in the UK, which is broadly the advising on, selling and administration of insurance contracts. This part of our business, including arrangements for complaints or redress if something goes wrong, is regulated by The Law Society. The Register can be accessed via the Financial Services Authority website at www.fsa.gov.uk/register.
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
I'm confused.if OS/X runs on the same hardware as what you call PCs why haven't they already captured this slice? Oh, you mean they should just sell the OS standlone on the shelf or licence it to vendors to sell with PCs. But then there would be no "APPLE". I think that's decidedly anti-APPLE thinking. :) No point in being frustrated and don't expect changes until Jobs dies. :) Chris Reeves wrote: :: I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more :: convinced I am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but :: because if Apple would get off it's high horse and decide to be a :: software maker, it could sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC :: market, and be an instant competitor. :: :: Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played :: with OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and :: the thing runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card :: from them in. I've seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The :: thing works and runs smooth on most hardware, because at it's heart, :: it's linux type core still handles it. :: :: Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant :: slice of the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they :: do well (6% of total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to :: be an option for any PC owner, they could capture a big slice of it :: as they'd have a lot more adopters of their product. :: :: CW :: ::: -Original Message- ::: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- ::: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz ::: Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:50 PM ::: To: The Hardware List ::: Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... ::: ::: On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 09:45:52AM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: 1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our more demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high end applications over to Precision 690s. ::: ::: right, the new ones are core duo based or in the case of the g5, ::: Dual Xeon. ::: 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance Jane Doe gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. The Macs would shit themselves over the name change and everything would go haywire. ::: ::: Yeah lol. ::: We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and 30 inch LCDs. ::: ::: Unf. ::: ::: -- ::: ::: Bryan G. Seitz
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
I'll tell you this, the more time I spend with Vista, the more convinced I am that Apple is wrong. Not because Vista is great, but because if Apple would get off it's high horse and decide to be a software maker, it could sell immense volumes of OS/X for the PC market, and be an instant competitor. Apple's closed system is what f*(& them, not Microsoft. I've played with OS/X 86 (legitimate, through a legitimate local developer) and the thing runs on virtually anything as long as I put the PCI card from them in. I've seen it run on AMD, old Dells, whatever. The thing works and runs smooth on most hardware, because at it's heart, it's linux type core still handles it. Which is what kills me about apple. They could have a significant slice of the overall PC market if they wanted it. Yes, I know they do well (6% of total market, which is not bad) but if OS/X were to be an option for any PC owner, they could capture a big slice of it as they'd have a lot more adopters of their product. CW > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:50 PM > To: The Hardware List > Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... > > On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 09:45:52AM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: > > 1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our more > > demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high end > > applications over to Precision 690s. > > right, the new ones are core duo based or in the case of the g5, Dual > Xeon. > > > 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance Jane > Doe > > gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. The Macs would > shit > > themselves over the name change and everything would go haywire. > > Yeah lol. > > > We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and 30 inch > > LCDs. > > Unf. > > -- > > Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 09:45:52AM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: > 1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our more > demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high end > applications over to Precision 690s. right, the new ones are core duo based or in the case of the g5, Dual Xeon. > 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance Jane Doe > gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. The Macs would shit > themselves over the name change and everything would go haywire. Yeah lol. > We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and 30 inch > LCDs. Unf. -- Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Take a listen to this podcast where they talk about how to setup Parallels so you can run Windows apps on your Mac without dualbooting: http://www.twit.tv/node/4548 On 9/30/06, joeuser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One word... WOW! iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iWork '06 preinstalled 250GB Serial ATA Drive SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English) ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. Some things I noticed... Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged Gateway mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in the boy's room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have only one line connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was soft, flexible and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by default though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through the wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. Heavy into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is different - it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key) -- Brian
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
1) The older G5s just weren't powerful enough to run some of our more demanding applications. We have since moved all of our high end applications over to Precision 690s. 2) One of our major problems is with Mac profiles. For instance Jane Doe gets married, and Jane's last name changes to Robinson. The Macs would shit themselves over the name change and everything would go haywire. Now a lot of our SLA and prototype printer manufacturers don't make any kind of interface for Macs so it wasn't just one single problem. They just weren't fitting in very well and cost way too much for the kind of hardware it came with. We still run them for the Viewmaster group. They have G5s, and 30 inch LCDs. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:49 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 09:46:43PM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: > Too many problems with them at work. They can't handle what we > needswitching everything over to PCs slowly. We have some brand > new G5s in that we are testing. Those are little better than the > older G5s but still lots of problems in a corporate environment. > > I have an older mac here...it's cool because it's different but I > don't think I could make the switch over and use just the mac. What specific problems do you have? -- Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Me either, I will still use PC's for games and windows only apps. My wife loves the thing. We both love the widgets. Found one with a countdown till Christmas. Another tells me that my World of Warcraft Doomhammer server is up or down. Just great stuff. Now if I can get her gin rummy and yahtzee games for the damn thing. Chris Klein wrote: Too many problems with them at work. They can't handle what we needswitching everything over to PCs slowly. We have some brand new G5s in that we are testing. Those are little better than the older G5s but still lots of problems in a corporate environment. I have an older mac here...it's cool because it's different but I don't think I could make the switch over and use just the mac. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:42 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... Yeah OSX is ... *nix + good UI = productivity and fun. I love it. On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 08:37:51PM -0500, joeuser wrote: One word... WOW! iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iWork '06 preinstalled 250GB Serial ATA Drive SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD?RW/CD-RW) Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English) ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. Some things I noticed... Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged Gateway mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in the boy's room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have only one line connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was soft, flexible and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by default though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through the wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. Heavy into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is different - it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key) -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key)
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 09:46:43PM -0400, Chris Klein wrote: > Too many problems with them at work. They can't handle what we > needswitching everything over to PCs slowly. We have some brand new G5s > in that we are testing. Those are little better than the older G5s but > still lots of problems in a corporate environment. > > I have an older mac here...it's cool because it's different but I don't > think I could make the switch over and use just the mac. What specific problems do you have? -- Bryan G. Seitz
RE: [H] iMac arrived today...
Too many problems with them at work. They can't handle what we needswitching everything over to PCs slowly. We have some brand new G5s in that we are testing. Those are little better than the older G5s but still lots of problems in a corporate environment. I have an older mac here...it's cool because it's different but I don't think I could make the switch over and use just the mac. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:42 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] iMac arrived today... Yeah OSX is ... *nix + good UI = productivity and fun. I love it. On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 08:37:51PM -0500, joeuser wrote: > One word... WOW! > > iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo > 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo > iWork '06 preinstalled > 250GB Serial ATA Drive > SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD?RW/CD-RW) > Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US > English) ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB > > > I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. > > Some things I noticed... > > Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. > Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY > friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged > Gateway mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in > the boy's room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have > only one line connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was > soft, flexible and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by > default though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through > the wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. > Heavy into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is > different - it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. > It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. > > > > > -- > Cheers, > joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key) -- Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] iMac arrived today...
Yeah OSX is ... *nix + good UI = productivity and fun. I love it. On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 08:37:51PM -0500, joeuser wrote: > One word... WOW! > > iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo > 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo > iWork '06 preinstalled > 250GB Serial ATA Drive > SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD?RW/CD-RW) > Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English) > ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM > 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB > > > I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. > > Some things I noticed... > > Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. > Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY > friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged Gateway > mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in the boy's > room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have only one line > connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was soft, flexible > and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by default > though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through the > wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. Heavy > into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is different - > it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. > It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. > > > > > -- > Cheers, > joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key) -- Bryan G. Seitz
[H] iMac arrived today...
One word... WOW! iMac, 20-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iWork '06 preinstalled 250GB Serial ATA Drive SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English) ATI Radeon X1600/256MB VRAM 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB I cannot believe how sharp and vibrant the image is. Some things I noticed... Setup: What a cinch. Answer a few questions... simple stuff. Done. Everything worked. I didn't have to install or remove jack. VERY friendly. Very sexy. I took the old family pc which was salvaged Gateway mini case (tall but not as deep) and 17in CRT and put it in the boy's room. Looks so sleek. If I was using wireless I would have only one line connected to it - power. Speaking of, the power cord was soft, flexible and flat angle. Setting easily located. Firewall off by default though... not sure if that's bad or not. INet sharing through the wireless was on? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I turned it off. Heavy into the .Mac jazz but not forced down your throat. Mouse is different - it is a button basically. Has a little gray rubber ball to scroll with. It's very nice and I am quite happy. I can see I will be an Apple fan. -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key)
