Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

They could put the account simply in #hold status and not let them get 
there money for that month until they either clean up there act or after 
X time just cancel account with no payment. Also you could make it so 
that they could re-register those ips for X time meaning that they would 
have to move every single server.


On 8/11/2012 11:39 PM, Sampson Rogers wrote:
Interesting idea. Perhaps we should be reporting these communities to 
the ad services they use as well.



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Interesting idea. Perhaps we should be reporting these communities to the
ad services they use as well.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[1nsane]

Pinion visited valve multiple times now, they would definitely care to keep
their relationship with valve on good terms.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Russell Smith
wrote:

> What do you mean?  Why would pinion drop any of these 'bad' servers for
> breaking Valve's policies? Pinion cares about people seeing their ads, and
> those 'bad' servers probably serve out more ads than most of their other
> affiliates.
>
>
> On 8/11/2012 8:06 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
>> We run it as well, and for some reason it has been highly associated that
>> this is the issue with policy of truth, but it isn't.
>>
>> If a community has been bad, and then worse, and then keep going down the
>> line and keep breaking Valve's policies why don't they simply contact the
>> ad company and say remove them please.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Thankfully some companies have morals, and I hope pinion does as well. 
Google.com could make tons, I mean tons more money if it did some very 
very simple changes to any of it ad setups, and other products. The fact 
though is they see it as bad and the have a large enough moral not to do 
it. I am hoping pinion is the same way. If they are to support "good" 
communities sometimes they must help act against bad ones.



On 8/11/2012 8:19 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
What do you mean?  Why would pinion drop any of these 'bad' servers 
for breaking Valve's policies? Pinion cares about people seeing their 
ads, and those 'bad' servers probably serve out more ads than most of 
their other affiliates.


On 8/11/2012 8:06 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
We run it as well, and for some reason it has been highly associated 
that this is the issue with policy of truth, but it isn't.


If a community has been bad, and then worse, and then keep going down 
the line and keep breaking Valve's policies why don't they simply 
contact the ad company and say remove them please.





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

What do you mean?  Why would pinion drop any of these 'bad' servers for 
breaking Valve's policies? Pinion cares about people seeing their ads, 
and those 'bad' servers probably serve out more ads than most of their 
other affiliates.


On 8/11/2012 8:06 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
We run it as well, and for some reason it has been highly associated 
that this is the issue with policy of truth, but it isn't.


If a community has been bad, and then worse, and then keep going down 
the line and keep breaking Valve's policies why don't they simply 
contact the ad company and say remove them please.





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

We run it as well, and for some reason it has been highly associated that this 
is the issue with policy of truth, but it isn't. 

If a community has been bad, and then worse, and then keep going down the line 
and keep breaking Valve's policies why don't they simply contact the ad company 
and say remove them please.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Timothy Sadleir wrote:

> Ahhh okay. Thanks for the info.
> 
> On Aug 11, 2012 6:16 PM, "Todd Pettit"  wrote:
> You get $1.50 for every 1000 views. Its a company called pinion. If you have 
> a solid server it should cover the operating cost of the server.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Timothy Sadleir" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you guys talking about when you say ADs? Are we talking about those 
> annoying servers that play AD videos in their MOTD? What the heck is the 
> benefit of running those annoying things on your servers anyways? I don't 
> understand...
> On Aug 11, 2012 5:30 PM, "Cameron Munroe" < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > wrote:
> >
> > My point is that if I chose to run Ads I shouldn't get ransacked by the 
> > email lists' High Priest. If I chose to run my server with ads so that I 
> > don't need to go to the steps of nighteam and it works then why does this 
> > email thread solely based on "ads." I for one don't like having to sell 
> > "donator rights" to my players just so that they can have above a 1.00 kd.
> >
> > Once again my point is that both ends of the stick can be used to stab you 
> > and you. So Stop making the thread all about you use "ads" then your BAD, 
> > as I am not. I simply have used something that worked best for us.
> >
> >
> > On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
> >
> > > How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves "Policy 
> > > of Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam groups more 
> > > successful than yours.
> > >
> > > Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members and 
> > > they may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies 
> > > and the members would be upset if you shut them down.
> > > Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The players 
> > > determine what is and is not abusive.
> > >
> > > There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and 
> > > admin rights than violating Valves policy of truth.
> > >
> > > Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system and 
> > > fool newer players into thinking they are playing with humans.
> > > The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from servers 
> > > who are obeying the policy.
> > >
> > > If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is 
> > > not abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Daniel Barreiro" < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com >
> > > To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" < 
> > > hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> > >
> > > How about this: we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe
> > > < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > wrote:
> > >> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then we 
> > >> get
> > >> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally get 
> > >> it
> > >> done and over with?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
> > >>
> > >> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It is 
> > >> a
> > >> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by 11:30 
> > >> if
> > >> not earlier.
> > >>
> > >> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would
> > >> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I 

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Timothy Sadleir]

Ahhh okay. Thanks for the info.
On Aug 11, 2012 6:16 PM, "Todd Pettit"  wrote:

> You get $1.50 for every 1000 views. Its a company called pinion. If you
> have a solid server it should cover the operating cost of the server.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Timothy Sadleir" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
>
>
>
> What are you guys talking about when you say ADs? Are we talking about
> those annoying servers that play AD videos in their MOTD? What the heck is
> the benefit of running those annoying things on your servers anyways? I
> don't understand...
> On Aug 11, 2012 5:30 PM, "Cameron Munroe" < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com >
> wrote:
> >
> > My point is that if I chose to run Ads I shouldn't get ransacked by the
> email lists' High Priest. If I chose to run my server with ads so that I
> don't need to go to the steps of nighteam and it works then why does this
> email thread solely based on "ads." I for one don't like having to sell
> "donator rights" to my players just so that they can have above a 1.00 kd.
> >
> > Once again my point is that both ends of the stick can be used to stab
> you and you. So Stop making the thread all about you use "ads" then your
> BAD, as I am not. I simply have used something that worked best for us.
> >
> >
> > On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
> >
> > > How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves
> "Policy of Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam
> groups more successful than yours.
> > >
> > > Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members
> and they may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies
> and the members would be upset if you shut them down.
> > > Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The
> players determine what is and is not abusive.
> > >
> > > There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and
> admin rights than violating Valves policy of truth.
> > >
> > > Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system
> and fool newer players into thinking they are playing with humans.
> > > The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from
> servers who are obeying the policy.
> > >
> > > If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is
> not abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Daniel Barreiro" < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com >
> > > To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> > >
> > > How about this: we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe
> > > < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > wrote:
> > >> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then
> we get
> > >> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally
> get it
> > >> done and over with?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
> > >>
> > >> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It
> is a
> > >> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by
> 11:30 if
> > >> not earlier.
> > >>
> > >> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would
> > >> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I
> don't care
> > >> about too much. The other 9 servers would still be here. Also when I
> mean
> > >> into the ground and I don't care, please don't give me the speal
> "since you
> > >> don't care about them that is why they aren't full and your a shitty
> > >> operator" I mean that it wouldn't kill me. I love my ctf servers and
> wish I
> > >> could draw more traffic to them.
> > >>
> > >> Your whole hype about ads seems to be about they are go

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

You get $1.50 for every 1000 views. Its a company called pinion. If you have a 
solid server it should cover the operating cost of the server.

- Original Message -
From: "Timothy Sadleir" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?




What are you guys talking about when you say ADs? Are we talking about those 
annoying servers that play AD videos in their MOTD? What the heck is the 
benefit of running those annoying things on your servers anyways? I don't 
understand... 
On Aug 11, 2012 5:30 PM, "Cameron Munroe" < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > wrote: 
> 
> My point is that if I chose to run Ads I shouldn't get ransacked by the email 
> lists' High Priest. If I chose to run my server with ads so that I don't need 
> to go to the steps of nighteam and it works then why does this email thread 
> solely based on "ads." I for one don't like having to sell "donator rights" 
> to my players just so that they can have above a 1.00 kd. 
> 
> Once again my point is that both ends of the stick can be used to stab you 
> and you. So Stop making the thread all about you use "ads" then your BAD, as 
> I am not. I simply have used something that worked best for us. 
> 
> 
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Todd Pettit wrote: 
> 
> > How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves "Policy 
> > of Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam groups more 
> > successful than yours. 
> > 
> > Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members and 
> > they may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies and 
> > the members would be upset if you shut them down. 
> > Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The players 
> > determine what is and is not abusive. 
> > 
> > There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and admin 
> > rights than violating Valves policy of truth. 
> > 
> > Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system and 
> > fool newer players into thinking they are playing with humans. 
> > The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from servers 
> > who are obeying the policy. 
> > 
> > If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is not 
> > abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please. 
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Daniel Barreiro" < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com > 
> > To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" < 
> > hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > 
> > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM 
> > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes? 
> > 
> > How about this: we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans. 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe 
> > < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > wrote: 
> >> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then we get 
> >> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally get it 
> >> done and over with? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote: 
> >> 
> >> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It is a 
> >> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by 11:30 
> >> if 
> >> not earlier. 
> >> 
> >> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would 
> >> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I don't 
> >> care 
> >> about too much. The other 9 servers would still be here. Also when I mean 
> >> into the ground and I don't care, please don't give me the speal "since 
> >> you 
> >> don't care about them that is why they aren't full and your a shitty 
> >> operator" I mean that it wouldn't kill me. I love my ctf servers and wish 
> >> I 
> >> could draw more traffic to them. 
> >> 
> >> Your whole hype about ads seems to be about they are going to dry up and 
> >> die. It can also happen to donations. What if someone got a hold of all 
> >> your 
> >> setup for donator rights and threw them into the ground. You would be 
> >> bound 
> >> to lose a lot of your donators. Let say that idea is just too far out of 
> >&

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Timothy Sadleir]

What are you guys talking about when you say ADs?  Are we talking about
those annoying servers that play AD videos in their MOTD?  What the heck is
the benefit of running those annoying things on your servers anyways?  I
don't understand...
On Aug 11, 2012 5:30 PM, "Cameron Munroe"  wrote:
>
> My point is that if I chose to run Ads I shouldn't get ransacked by the
email lists' High Priest.  If I chose to run my server with ads so that I
don't need to go to the steps of nighteam and it works then why does this
email thread solely based on "ads." I for one don't like having to sell
"donator rights" to my players just so that they can have above a 1.00 kd.
>
> Once again my point is that both ends of the stick can be used to stab
you and you.  So Stop making the thread all about you use "ads" then your
BAD, as I am not. I simply have used something that worked best for us.
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
>
> > How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves
"Policy of Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam
groups more successful than yours.
> >
> > Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members and
they may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies and
the members would be upset if you shut them down.
> > Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The
players determine what is and is not abusive.
> >
> > There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and
admin rights than violating Valves policy of truth.
> >
> > Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system
and fool newer players into thinking they are playing with humans.
> > The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from
servers who are obeying the policy.
> >
> > If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is
not abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -----
> > From: "Daniel Barreiro" 
> > To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> >
> > How about this:  we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans.
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe
> >  wrote:
> >> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then we
get
> >> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally
get it
> >> done and over with?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
> >>
> >> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It
is a
> >> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by
11:30 if
> >> not earlier.
> >>
> >> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would
> >> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I don't
care
> >> about too much. The other 9 servers would still be here. Also when I
mean
> >> into the ground and I don't care, please don't give me the speal
"since you
> >> don't care about them that is why they aren't full and your a shitty
> >> operator" I mean that it wouldn't kill me. I love my ctf servers and
wish I
> >> could draw more traffic to them.
> >>
> >> Your whole hype about ads seems to be about they are going to dry up
and
> >> die. It can also happen to donations. What if someone got a hold of
all your
> >> setup for donator rights and threw them into the ground. You would be
bound
> >> to lose a lot of your donators. Let say that idea is just too far out
of
> >> mind though, and another tf2 update breaks all donator rights. You
tell me
> >> then what?
> >>
> >> Both ads and donator rights can be abused. If you don't think donator
rights
> >> can be abused and are abused then please by god go look at nighteam's
> >> donator rights. http://nighteam.com/index.php?do=premium
> >>
> >> For me I would rather not to give people donator rights like the above
to
> >> generate simple donations. Its not my cup of tea and I'm afraid of the
above
> >> being a slippery slope.  I've also played on servers with this donator
> >> rights where donators were gods and I and everyone else was nothing
more
> >> then there subjects. If t

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I used to have this issue but after playing with the settings a few times you 
can completely marginalize this issue.

I have not heard anyone make a complaint about this in 4 or 5 months since the 
last time I adjusted mine and all my VIPs can start immediate votes.

- Original Message -
From: "Cameron Munroe" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:54:56 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

... then they wait the minute and half and spam it again. LOL or they go and 
votekick them, player comes back. OHHH MY GOD HES BACK thats a violation ban 
him.[repeat]
On Aug 11, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

> You can set a cooldown period.
> My votes are not allowed again for 90 seconds.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Cameron Munroe" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:24:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> 
> 
> My problem is that they can just spam it until they are done. Most servers 
> use a process where x number of people have to vote and then they are 
> prompted. In other words they just keep spamming the voteban until it is 
> successful. 
> 
> 
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Brian Simon wrote: 
> 
> 
> People being able to vote obviously means they are all "semi-admins," 
> following your logic. And with the built-in TF2 voting system, that makes 
> every single player on Valve servers "semi-admins" because anyone can start a 
> vote, right? 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Cameron Munroe < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > 
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can tell, 
> I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my servers up. 
> 
> The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated way 
> too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system at lotus 
> gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more and more to 
> ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they wanted a friend in 
> the server immediately started a vote to kick a player. They also muted 
> people simply because the person was young. So when asked "can I buy admin" 
> for my servers I have repeatedly stated "No" because I know it will lead to 
> abuse, which I don't want. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote: 
> 
> 
> Oh that's sweet Russel :) 
> 
> I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like 
> just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers 
> 6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4 
> 
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith < ve...@tinylittlerobots.us > 
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you. I am just curious what 
> would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd. Is your goal 
> to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus? 
> 
> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine after 
> his. I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this thread. 
> 
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote: 
> 
> 
> Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets 
> talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy 
> amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin 
> rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they 
> wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own 
> servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming 
> players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server. 
> 
> 
> A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can 
> join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race, 
> location, or ethnicity. 
> 
> 
> On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote: 
> 
> 
> How do you define being a successful admin? 
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote: 
> 
> 
> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that 
> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free 
> to Play Generation. 
> 
> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs. 
> 
> __ _ 
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit: 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I am really starting to understand the whole "Playa Hater" concept. :)

- Original Message -
From: "Robert Paulson" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 7:32:57 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

I'm sorry for rebumping this thread, but I feel it needs to be
balanced in case anyone from Valve decides to take it seriously.

Does anyone else not find it strange that people are making tens of
thousands a month off the Steam Workshop and no one is saying how
greedy they are? Where is the righteous indignation that they should
be submitting their models for free to fpsbanana and rely solely on
donations? Running a successful server is much more work than creating
a couple of models.

Why is the idea of a server owner making the equivalent of a Starbucks
per day even causing discussions of greed? Is everyone here a teen or
college student where an extra $50 a month is criminally rich?

Why are servers owners only allowed to take donations and create a
large rift between the donators and non-donators? To the owner of TN
and NoHeroes, do not force your own views of morality on us.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 4:10 AM, E. Olsen  wrote:
> I think that everyone has already overlooked the fact that Valve already has
> in place the best method possible for weeding out poor servers - the server
> score. If a player leaves a server quickly (which I have to think they will
> with a bunch of fake clients, etc.) the score will decline over time,
> allowing the cream to rise to the top.
>
> Again - I think the root of the problem here is quickplay itself.
> Practically overnight, it has lulled new server operators into thinking that
> filling servers is not only easy, but is (for the most part) Valve's
> responsibility. It has also led to a rise in the use of fake
> clients/illegitimate bots in an attempt to garner as much of that "easy
> traffic" as possible. We've seen the effects of this every time there is a
> hiccup or small change in the system, as this list lights up with complaints
> of "quickplay is not working", or "quickplay no longer fills my servers",
> etc. etc. Those complaints are invariably followed by calls for more action
> against the bad players.
>
> Now, I'm all for taking action against the bad guys - the less of them the
> better (for the players, that is). My point is, even if Valve were able to
> rid the server list of every nefarious operators using these kinds of
> cheats, it wouldn't increase most server operator's traffic one bit over
> what you are already getting (which, if everyone who has their torch and
> pitchfork out would admit, is the motivation behind these debates - everyone
> wants the traffic those servers are getting).
>
> Looking at the other side of this debate, there's something to consider:
>
> 1. Would you actually WANT a player willing to buy admin right and/or those
> premium "pay to win" benefits? I sure as hell wouldn't - that's one step up
> from buying a hack, IMO. If they're willing to do that, they're willing to
> exploit anything they can to win - no thanks.
>
> 2. I agree that getting people to donate early on is next to impossible. My
> question is, than why would you? We went our first 9 months before accepting
> a single dime in donations. Build the value FIRST in your community, and the
> donations will come. If your next argument is that donations "dried up", so
> I HAD to run ads, I would submit to you that you failed to maintain and
> build the value in your community, and adding ads to your MOTD is not adding
> to that value, it's simply using random player connections/impressions as a
> means of keeping afloat. Will it pay your bills? Maybe...for a time, but
> Pinion would not be the first net advertising channel to go under due to
> poor sales conversions, and I doubt even the smallest fraction of players
> exposed to those ads are in the "buying" frame of mind, and
> click-thru/complete a purchase. Over time, Pinion's pool of advertisers may
> (IMO) most likely dry up, eliminating that source of revenue. What is your
> backup plan then?
>
> 3. In the end, there is a fix to all this, but most involved in this
> conversation won't like it: Do away with quickplay for all but the newest
> (i.e. less than 100 playing hours) players. In fact, let's disable the
> server browser for new players, and only let them use quickplay until they
> reach a certain point (i.e. X number of hours played with each class on X
> number of stock maps). Valve could make it something to work towards - no
> access to the server browser until you've achieved all the m

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

... then they wait the minute and half and spam it again. LOL or they go and 
votekick them, player comes back. OHHH MY GOD HES BACK thats a violation ban 
him.[repeat]
On Aug 11, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

> You can set a cooldown period.
> My votes are not allowed again for 90 seconds.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Cameron Munroe" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:24:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> 
> 
> My problem is that they can just spam it until they are done. Most servers 
> use a process where x number of people have to vote and then they are 
> prompted. In other words they just keep spamming the voteban until it is 
> successful. 
> 
> 
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Brian Simon wrote: 
> 
> 
> People being able to vote obviously means they are all "semi-admins," 
> following your logic. And with the built-in TF2 voting system, that makes 
> every single player on Valve servers "semi-admins" because anyone can start a 
> vote, right? 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Cameron Munroe < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > 
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can tell, 
> I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my servers up. 
> 
> The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated way 
> too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system at lotus 
> gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more and more to 
> ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they wanted a friend in 
> the server immediately started a vote to kick a player. They also muted 
> people simply because the person was young. So when asked "can I buy admin" 
> for my servers I have repeatedly stated "No" because I know it will lead to 
> abuse, which I don't want. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote: 
> 
> 
> Oh that's sweet Russel :) 
> 
> I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like 
> just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers 
> 6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4 
> 
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith < ve...@tinylittlerobots.us > 
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you. I am just curious what 
> would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd. Is your goal 
> to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus? 
> 
> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine after 
> his. I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this thread. 
> 
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote: 
> 
> 
> Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets 
> talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy 
> amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin 
> rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they 
> wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own 
> servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming 
> players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server. 
> 
> 
> A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can 
> join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race, 
> location, or ethnicity. 
> 
> 
> On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote: 
> 
> 
> How do you define being a successful admin? 
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote: 
> 
> 
> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that 
> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free 
> to Play Generation. 
> 
> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs. 
> 
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> visit: 
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> 
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> 
> -- 
> -- Cameron Munroe 
> 
> http://www.cameronmunroe.com/ 
> http://www.munroenet.com/ 
> 
> 
> 
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> visit: 

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

You can set a cooldown period.
My votes are not allowed again for 90 seconds.


- Original Message -
From: "Cameron Munroe" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:24:31 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


My problem is that they can just spam it until they are done. Most servers use 
a process where x number of people have to vote and then they are prompted. In 
other words they just keep spamming the voteban until it is successful. 


On Aug 11, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Brian Simon wrote: 


People being able to vote obviously means they are all "semi-admins," following 
your logic. And with the built-in TF2 voting system, that makes every single 
player on Valve servers "semi-admins" because anyone can start a vote, right? 


On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Cameron Munroe < cmun...@cameronmunroe.com > 
wrote: 


Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can tell, I 
am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my servers up. 

The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated way too 
many times already, but I did it is because the donator system at lotus gave 
donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more and more to ads 
instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they wanted a friend in the 
server immediately started a vote to kick a player. They also muted people 
simply because the person was young. So when asked "can I buy admin" for my 
servers I have repeatedly stated "No" because I know it will lead to abuse, 
which I don't want. 




On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote: 


Oh that's sweet Russel :) 

I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like 
just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers 
6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused. 

Sent from my iPhone 4 

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith < ve...@tinylittlerobots.us > wrote: 



Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you. I am just curious what 
would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd. Is your goal to 
try and grow your community to the size of Lotus? 

Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine after 
his. I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this thread. 


On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote: 


Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets 
talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy 
amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin 
rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they 
wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own 
servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming 
players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server. 


A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can 
join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race, 
location, or ethnicity. 


On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote: 


How do you define being a successful admin? 

On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote: 


Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that 
people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free 
to Play Generation. 

For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs. 

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-- 
-- Cameron Munroe 

http://www.cameronmunroe.com/ 
http://www.munroenet.com/ 



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I am not sure why you are replying to mine since that was my entire point. 

Focus on actual policy violations and stop witch hunts.

- Original Message -
From: "Cameron Munroe" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:30:39 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

My point is that if I chose to run Ads I shouldn't get ransacked by the email 
lists' High Priest.  If I chose to run my server with ads so that I don't need 
to go to the steps of nighteam and it works then why does this email thread 
solely based on "ads." I for one don't like having to sell "donator rights" to 
my players just so that they can have above a 1.00 kd. 

Once again my point is that both ends of the stick can be used to stab you and 
you.  So Stop making the thread all about you use "ads" then your BAD, as I am 
not. I simply have used something that worked best for us.


On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

> How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves "Policy of 
> Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam groups more 
> successful than yours.
> 
> Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members and they 
> may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies and the 
> members would be upset if you shut them down.
> Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The players 
> determine what is and is not abusive.
> 
> There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and admin 
> rights than violating Valves policy of truth.
> 
> Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system and fool 
> newer players into thinking they are playing with humans. 
> The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from servers who 
> are obeying the policy.
> 
> If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is not 
> abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Daniel Barreiro" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> 
> How about this:  we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe
>  wrote:
>> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then we get
>> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally get it
>> done and over with?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>> 
>> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It is a
>> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by 11:30 if
>> not earlier.
>> 
>> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would
>> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I don't care
>> about too much. The other 9 servers would still be here. Also when I mean
>> into the ground and I don't care, please don't give me the speal "since you
>> don't care about them that is why they aren't full and your a shitty
>> operator" I mean that it wouldn't kill me. I love my ctf servers and wish I
>> could draw more traffic to them.
>> 
>> Your whole hype about ads seems to be about they are going to dry up and
>> die. It can also happen to donations. What if someone got a hold of all your
>> setup for donator rights and threw them into the ground. You would be bound
>> to lose a lot of your donators. Let say that idea is just too far out of
>> mind though, and another tf2 update breaks all donator rights. You tell me
>> then what?
>> 
>> Both ads and donator rights can be abused. If you don't think donator rights
>> can be abused and are abused then please by god go look at nighteam's
>> donator rights. http://nighteam.com/index.php?do=premium
>> 
>> For me I would rather not to give people donator rights like the above to
>> generate simple donations. Its not my cup of tea and I'm afraid of the above
>> being a slippery slope.  I've also played on servers with this donator
>> rights where donators were gods and I and everyone else was nothing more
>> then there subjects. If they didn't like you then boom instant voteban
>> prompt. You head shot them 10+ time boom instant instant voteban. "Well
>> everyone voted for you?" Yeah, but that is because all the rest h

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

My point is that if I chose to run Ads I shouldn't get ransacked by the email 
lists' High Priest.  If I chose to run my server with ads so that I don't need 
to go to the steps of nighteam and it works then why does this email thread 
solely based on "ads." I for one don't like having to sell "donator rights" to 
my players just so that they can have above a 1.00 kd. 

Once again my point is that both ends of the stick can be used to stab you and 
you.  So Stop making the thread all about you use "ads" then your BAD, as I am 
not. I simply have used something that worked best for us.


On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

> How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves "Policy of 
> Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam groups more 
> successful than yours.
> 
> Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members and they 
> may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies and the 
> members would be upset if you shut them down.
> Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The players 
> determine what is and is not abusive.
> 
> There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and admin 
> rights than violating Valves policy of truth.
> 
> Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system and fool 
> newer players into thinking they are playing with humans. 
> The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from servers who 
> are obeying the policy.
> 
> If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is not 
> abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Daniel Barreiro" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> 
> How about this:  we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe
>  wrote:
>> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then we get
>> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally get it
>> done and over with?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>> 
>> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It is a
>> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by 11:30 if
>> not earlier.
>> 
>> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would
>> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I don't care
>> about too much. The other 9 servers would still be here. Also when I mean
>> into the ground and I don't care, please don't give me the speal "since you
>> don't care about them that is why they aren't full and your a shitty
>> operator" I mean that it wouldn't kill me. I love my ctf servers and wish I
>> could draw more traffic to them.
>> 
>> Your whole hype about ads seems to be about they are going to dry up and
>> die. It can also happen to donations. What if someone got a hold of all your
>> setup for donator rights and threw them into the ground. You would be bound
>> to lose a lot of your donators. Let say that idea is just too far out of
>> mind though, and another tf2 update breaks all donator rights. You tell me
>> then what?
>> 
>> Both ads and donator rights can be abused. If you don't think donator rights
>> can be abused and are abused then please by god go look at nighteam's
>> donator rights. http://nighteam.com/index.php?do=premium
>> 
>> For me I would rather not to give people donator rights like the above to
>> generate simple donations. Its not my cup of tea and I'm afraid of the above
>> being a slippery slope.  I've also played on servers with this donator
>> rights where donators were gods and I and everyone else was nothing more
>> then there subjects. If they didn't like you then boom instant voteban
>> prompt. You head shot them 10+ time boom instant instant voteban. "Well
>> everyone voted for you?" Yeah, but that is because all the rest have been
>> trained to do so. The regulars.
>> 
>> I for one want all my players on the same playing field. level, fair, fun.
>> 
>> Yet if you look at most of the serves with the point of this topic "FAKE
>> CLIENTS" you will find that most have donator rights and ads. BOTH, so it
>> isn't a sole "ads"

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

My problem is that they can just spam it until they are done. Most servers use 
a process where x number of people have to vote and then they are prompted. In 
other words they just keep spamming the voteban until it is successful.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Brian Simon wrote:

> People being able to vote obviously means they are all "semi-admins," 
> following your logic. And with the built-in TF2 voting system, that makes 
> every single player on Valve servers "semi-admins" because anyone can start a 
> vote, right? 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Cameron Munroe  
> wrote:
> Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can tell, 
> I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my servers up.
> 
> The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated way 
> too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system at lotus 
> gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more and more to 
> ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they wanted a friend in 
> the server immediately started a vote to kick a player. They also muted 
> people simply because the person was young. So when asked "can I buy admin" 
> for my servers I have repeatedly stated "No" because I know it will lead to 
> abuse, which I don't want.
> 
> 
> 
> On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote:
> Oh that's sweet Russel :)
> 
> I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like
> just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers
> 6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4
> 
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith  wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just curious 
> what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd.  Is your 
> goal to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus?
> 
> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine after 
> his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this thread.
> 
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:
> Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
> talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy
> amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin
> rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
> wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own
> servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming
> players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.
> 
> 
> A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
> join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
> location, or ethnicity.
> 
> 
> On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
> How do you define being a successful admin?
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:
> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free
> to Play Generation.
> 
> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
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> 
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> archives, please visit:
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> 
> -- 
> -- Cameron Munroe
> 
> http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
> http://www.munroenet.com/
> 
> 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Good points Robert and as I've said, I feel nothing is wrong with that. I
also don't think servers offering paid for benefits are wrong either. It's
up to them to provide the game play experience they want and if they want
to sell premium benefits (Which I think is lame, but not against the rules)
Then they should have the ability to.

This of course assumes they're following all of the Policy of Truth rules,
etc.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Robert Paulson]

n issue
> before the quickplay system was turned on, as it really didn't really help
> the guys who did it that much. Server operators that went to the enormous
> effort of building awesome gaming environments and consistently seeding
> their servers (you know, by actually playing on them until they filled up)
> were rewarded over time with players that favorited them and came back, over
> and over.
>
> If your community/servers cannot survive without quickplay, you honestly
> have to ask yourself if they deserve to. If you rely on random players that
> are SENT to you, as opposed to players you ATTRACT, then you are building a
> house of cards, plain and simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk 
> wrote:
>>
>> ?? Never see any ads on YT, oh, wait, I blocked them :)
>>
>> Same as for in-game adds, MOTD = disabled. No need to "read" them if one
>> doesn't: cheat, swear, abuse, grief, etc. And those that do, aren't reading
>> it either. They can "plaster" it with ads for all I care.
>>
>> As for the actual SUBJECT of this topic (its gone way off-topic with the
>> ads stuff), I think valve is already moving into the steam login required
>> for setting up/running servers. Altho I think they should set it up that
>> server owners can make a new steam account, and then request via web-page on
>> steam to add server functionality to it (for dedicated servers), after which
>> they can set up servers. That those should get linked to the owner's main
>> account and the communities steam group(s) should also be nice. Once that is
>> in place, a good "hammering" is possible.
>>
>> 
>> From: Sampson Rogers 
>>
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>> 
>> Sent: Saturday, 11 August 2012, 5:46
>>
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>>
>> I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of 1 click to
>> get past with no extra effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong with
>> supporting servers by clicking right past something you're not even required
>> to view. Look at places like Youtube, they have ads on nearly all of their
>> videos you have to wait a few seconds to get past and you can't tell me
>> Google needs more money. You can also disable HTML MOTD if you choose, that
>> sounds like a fair in between to me. No reason to punish communities that
>> provide a good gaming experience but also run ads on the MOTD to keep the
>> servers afloat. Nothing wrong with it at all. Other communities shouldn't be
>> frowned upon for needing a monetary hand in getting started or maintaining
>> their servers as long as they do things the right way, don't exploit their
>> users for only a quick buck and properly administrate their servers.
>>
>> The truth is, it is not always easy to get donations, even when you run a
>> solid community, especially starting out.
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

How about reporting clans who are actually in violation of Valves "Policy of 
Truth" instead of inciting a witch hunt of clans and steam groups more 
successful than yours.

Nightteam and other clans may have crazy benefits for their members and they 
may be for sale too but they are not in violation of any policies and the 
members would be upset if you shut them down.
Just cause you think something is abusive doesn't make it so. The players 
determine what is and is not abusive.

There is a huge difference between running ADs and selling perks and admin 
rights than violating Valves policy of truth.

Fake Clients, Bot Pings, Bot Avatars manipulate the quickplay system and fool 
newer players into thinking they are playing with humans. 
The player is never aware of this and it takes traffic away from servers who 
are obeying the policy.

If you don't like Ads, perks and selling admin just don't do it. It is not 
abusive just cause you think it is. Stick to the policy, please.
 

- Original Message -
From: "Daniel Barreiro" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:25:11 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

How about this:  we all go on a reporting spree of the abusive clans.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Cameron Munroe
 wrote:
> Once again this conversation hits a wall, no one will talk and then we get
> to revisit it in a week. Why don't we just hash through and finally get it
> done and over with?
>
>
>
> On 8/11/2012 8:36 AM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
> If per say my servers ran on quickplay they wouldn't be full 24/7. It is a
> general idea that quickplay is local and most people are in bed by 11:30 if
> not earlier.
>
> The fact is that my community really doesn't need quickplay. It would
> probably take my two ctf servers into the ground which frankly I don't care
> about too much. The other 9 servers would still be here. Also when I mean
> into the ground and I don't care, please don't give me the speal "since you
> don't care about them that is why they aren't full and your a shitty
> operator" I mean that it wouldn't kill me. I love my ctf servers and wish I
> could draw more traffic to them.
>
> Your whole hype about ads seems to be about they are going to dry up and
> die. It can also happen to donations. What if someone got a hold of all your
> setup for donator rights and threw them into the ground. You would be bound
> to lose a lot of your donators. Let say that idea is just too far out of
> mind though, and another tf2 update breaks all donator rights. You tell me
> then what?
>
> Both ads and donator rights can be abused. If you don't think donator rights
> can be abused and are abused then please by god go look at nighteam's
> donator rights. http://nighteam.com/index.php?do=premium
>
> For me I would rather not to give people donator rights like the above to
> generate simple donations. Its not my cup of tea and I'm afraid of the above
> being a slippery slope.  I've also played on servers with this donator
> rights where donators were gods and I and everyone else was nothing more
> then there subjects. If they didn't like you then boom instant voteban
> prompt. You head shot them 10+ time boom instant instant voteban. "Well
> everyone voted for you?" Yeah, but that is because all the rest have been
> trained to do so. The regulars.
>
> I for one want all my players on the same playing field. level, fair, fun.
>
> Yet if you look at most of the serves with the point of this topic "FAKE
> CLIENTS" you will find that most have donator rights and ads. BOTH, so it
> isn't a sole "ads" issue.
>
> Ban players under 100 hours from everything else on the internet. What if
> they came along and said I hate standard ctf, cp, and the rest. They go
> watch a vid and say "OMG SAXTON HALE!" I want to go play that, but they
> can't because of your stupid block. Lets say they wanted to go play on a
> server that they knew was fun from friends, but they can't as it doesn't
> have godlike scores on quickplay? What then are you going to now force them
> into a server they don't want, "yes."
>
> In all actuality, if you killed quickplay you probably would make and help
> make my CTF servers even fill faster, as now my score on quickplay is next
> to nothing. Though I have 9 other servers that have !hop so people would
> begin to play on it more as they wouldn't just go to quickplay.
>
> Quickplay should instead be changed to benefit small communities that have
> been verified.
>
> Though I agree with the fact that if you got

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Brian Simon]

People being able to vote obviously means they are all "semi-admins,"
following your logic. And with the built-in TF2 voting system, that makes
every single player on Valve servers "semi-admins" because anyone can start
a vote, right?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Cameron Munroe
wrote:

> Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can
> tell, I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my servers
> up.
>
> The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated
> way too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system at
> lotus gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more and
> more to ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they wanted a
> friend in the server immediately started a vote to kick a player. They also
> muted people simply because the person was young. So when asked "can I buy
> admin" for my servers I have repeatedly stated "No" because I know it will
> lead to abuse, which I don't want.
>
>
>
> On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote:
>
>> Oh that's sweet Russel :)
>>
>> I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like
>> just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers
>> 6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just
>>> curious what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd.
>>>  Is your goal to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus?
>>>
>>> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine
>>> after his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this
>>> thread.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>>>
 Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
 talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy
 amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin
 rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
 wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own
 servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming
 players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.


 A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
 join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
 location, or ethnicity.


 On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

> How do you define being a successful admin?
>
> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
>> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
>> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free
>> to Play Generation.
>>
>> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.
>>
>
>>> __**_
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds
>>>
>>
>> __**_
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
>> archives, please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds
>>
>
> --
> -- Cameron Munroe
>
> http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
> http://www.munroenet.com/
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

g", or "quickplay no longer fills my servers",
> etc. etc. Those complaints are invariably followed by calls for more action
> against the bad players.
>
> Now, I'm all for taking action against the bad guys - the less of them the
> better (for the players, that is). My point is, even if Valve were able to
> rid the server list of every nefarious operators using these kinds of
> cheats, it wouldn't increase most server operator's traffic one bit over
> what you are already getting (which, if everyone who has their torch and
> pitchfork out would admit, is the motivation behind these debates - everyone
> wants the traffic those servers are getting).
>
> Looking at the other side of this debate, there's something to consider:
>
> 1. Would you actually WANT a player willing to buy admin right and/or those
> premium "pay to win" benefits? I sure as hell wouldn't - that's one step up
> from buying a hack, IMO. If they're willing to do that, they're willing to
> exploit anything they can to win - no thanks.
>
> 2. I agree that getting people to donate early on is next to impossible. My
> question is, than why would you? We went our first 9 months before accepting
> a single dime in donations. Build the value FIRST in your community, and the
> donations will come. If your next argument is that donations "dried up", so
> I HAD to run ads, I would submit to you that you failed to maintain and
> build the value in your community, and adding ads to your MOTD is not adding
> to that value, it's simply using random player connections/impressions as a
> means of keeping afloat. Will it pay your bills? Maybe...for a time, but
> Pinion would not be the first net advertising channel to go under due to
> poor sales conversions, and I doubt even the smallest fraction of players
> exposed to those ads are in the "buying" frame of mind, and
> click-thru/complete a purchase. Over time, Pinion's pool of advertisers may
> (IMO) most likely dry up, eliminating that source of revenue. What is your
> backup plan then?
>
> 3. In the end, there is a fix to all this, but most involved in this
> conversation won't like it: Do away with quickplay for all but the newest
> (i.e. less than 100 playing hours) players. In fact, let's disable the
> server browser for new players, and only let them use quickplay until they
> reach a certain point (i.e. X number of hours played with each class on X
> number of stock maps). Valve could make it something to work towards - no
> access to the server browser until you've achieved all the minimum
> requirements to teach you the game, etc. Once you've reached that, the
> quickplay button goes away, and the server browser button appears.
>
> Let's get back to making server operators actually work at building regular
> server traffic again. None of this nefarious activity was ever an issue
> before the quickplay system was turned on, as it really didn't really help
> the guys who did it that much. Server operators that went to the enormous
> effort of building awesome gaming environments and consistently seeding
> their servers (you know, by actually playing on them until they filled up)
> were rewarded over time with players that favorited them and came back, over
> and over.
>
> If your community/servers cannot survive without quickplay, you honestly
> have to ask yourself if they deserve to. If you rely on random players that
> are SENT to you, as opposed to players you ATTRACT, then you are building a
> house of cards, plain and simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk 
> wrote:
>>
>> ?? Never see any ads on YT, oh, wait, I blocked them :)
>>
>> Same as for in-game adds, MOTD = disabled. No need to "read" them if one
>> doesn't: cheat, swear, abuse, grief, etc. And those that do, aren't reading
>> it either. They can "plaster" it with ads for all I care.
>>
>> As for the actual SUBJECT of this topic (its gone way off-topic with the
>> ads stuff), I think valve is already moving into the steam login required
>> for setting up/running servers. Altho I think they should set it up that
>> server owners can make a new steam account, and then request via web-page on
>> steam to add server functionality to it (for dedicated servers), after which
>> they can set up servers. That those should get linked to the owner's main
>> account and the communities steam group(s) should also be nice. Once that is
>> in place, a good "hammering" is possible.
>>
>> 
>> From: Sampson Rogers 
>>

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

bit over what you are already getting (which, 
if everyone who has their torch and pitchfork out would admit, is the 
motivation behind these debates - everyone wants the traffic those 
servers are getting).


Looking at the other side of this debate, there's something to consider:

1. Would you actually WANT a player willing to buy admin right and/or 
those premium "pay to win" benefits? I sure as hell wouldn't - that's 
one step up from buying a hack, IMO. If they're willing to do that, 
they're willing to exploit anything they can to win - no thanks.


2. I agree that getting people to donate early on is next to 
impossible. My question is, than why would you? We went our first 9 
months before accepting a single dime in donations. Build the value 
FIRST in your community, and the donations will come. If your next 
argument is that donations "dried up", so I HAD to run ads, I would 
submit to you that you failed to maintain and build the value in your 
community, and adding ads to your MOTD is not adding to that value, 
it's simply using random player connections/impressions as a means of 
keeping afloat. Will it pay your bills? Maybe...for a time, but 
Pinion would not be the first net advertising channel to go under due 
to poor sales conversions, and I doubt even the smallest fraction of 
players exposed to those ads are in the "buying" frame of mind, and 
click-thru/complete a purchase. Over time, Pinion's pool of 
advertisers may (IMO) most likely dry up, eliminating that source of 
revenue. What is your backup plan then?


3. In the end, there is a fix to all this, but most involved in this 
conversation won't like it: Do away with quickplay for all but the 
newest (i.e. less than 100 playing hours) players. In fact, let's 
disable the server browser for new players, and only let them use 
quickplay until they reach a certain point (i.e. X number of hours 
played with each class on X number of stock maps). Valve could make 
it something to work towards - no access to the server browser until 
you've achieved all the minimum requirements to teach you the game, 
etc. Once you've reached that, the quickplay button goes away, and 
the server browser button appears.


Let's get back to making server operators actually work at building 
regular server traffic again. None of this nefarious activity was 
ever an issue before the quickplay system was turned on, as it really 
didn't really help the guys who did it that much. Server operators 
that went to the enormous effort of building awesome gaming 
environments and consistently seeding their servers (you know, by 
actually playing on them until they filled up) were rewarded over 
time with players that favorited them and came back, over and over.


If your community/servers cannot survive without quickplay, you 
honestly have to ask yourself if they deserve to. If you rely on 
random players that are SENT to you, as opposed to players you 
ATTRACT, then you are building a house of cards, plain and simple.







On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk 
mailto:mreeu...@yahoo.com>> wrote:


?? Never see any ads on YT, oh, wait, I blocked them :)

Same as for in-game adds, MOTD = disabled. No need to "read" them
if one doesn't: cheat, swear, abuse, grief, etc. And those that
do, aren't reading it either. They can "plaster" it with ads for
all I care.

As for the actual SUBJECT of this topic (its gone way off-topic
with the ads stuff), I think valve is already moving into the
steam login required for setting up/running servers. Altho I
think they should set it up that server owners can make a new
steam account, and then request via web-page on steam to add
server functionality to it (for dedicated servers), after which
they can set up servers. That those should get linked to the
owner's main account and the communities steam group(s) should
also be nice. Once that is in place, a good "hammering" is possible.

    ----
*From:* Sampson Rogers mailto:kritskring...@gmail.com>>

*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
mailto:hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>>
*Sent:* Saturday, 11 August 2012, 5:46

*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some
changes?

I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of
1 click to get past with no extra effort. There is absolutely
nothing wrong with supporting servers by clicking right past
something you're not even required to view. Look at places
like Youtube, they have ads on nearly all of their videos you
have to wait a few seconds to get past and you can't tell me
Google needs more money

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

her side of this debate, there's something to consider:

1. Would you actually WANT a player willing to buy admin right and/or 
those premium "pay to win" benefits? I sure as hell wouldn't - that's 
one step up from buying a hack, IMO. If they're willing to do that, 
they're willing to exploit anything they can to win - no thanks.


2. I agree that getting people to donate early on is next to 
impossible. My question is, than why would you? We went our first 9 
months before accepting a single dime in donations. Build the value 
FIRST in your community, and the donations will come. If your next 
argument is that donations "dried up", so I HAD to run ads, I would 
submit to you that you failed to maintain and build the value in your 
community, and adding ads to your MOTD is not adding to that value, 
it's simply using random player connections/impressions as a means of 
keeping afloat. Will it pay your bills? Maybe...for a time, but Pinion 
would not be the first net advertising channel to go under due to poor 
sales conversions, and I doubt even the smallest fraction of players 
exposed to those ads are in the "buying" frame of mind, and 
click-thru/complete a purchase. Over time, Pinion's pool of 
advertisers may (IMO) most likely dry up, eliminating that source of 
revenue. What is your backup plan then?


3. In the end, there is a fix to all this, but most involved in this 
conversation won't like it: Do away with quickplay for all but the 
newest (i.e. less than 100 playing hours) players. In fact, let's 
disable the server browser for new players, and only let them use 
quickplay until they reach a certain point (i.e. X number of hours 
played with each class on X number of stock maps). Valve could make it 
something to work towards - no access to the server browser until 
you've achieved all the minimum requirements to teach you the game, 
etc. Once you've reached that, the quickplay button goes away, and the 
server browser button appears.


Let's get back to making server operators actually work at building 
regular server traffic again. None of this nefarious activity was ever 
an issue before the quickplay system was turned on, as it really 
didn't really help the guys who did it that much. Server operators 
that went to the enormous effort of building awesome gaming 
environments and consistently seeding their servers (you know, by 
actually playing on them until they filled up) were rewarded over time 
with players that favorited them and came back, over and over.


If your community/servers cannot survive without quickplay, you 
honestly have to ask yourself if they deserve to. If you rely on 
random players that are SENT to you, as opposed to players you 
ATTRACT, then you are building a house of cards, plain and simple.







On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk <mailto:mreeu...@yahoo.com>> wrote:


?? Never see any ads on YT, oh, wait, I blocked them :)

Same as for in-game adds, MOTD = disabled. No need to "read" them
if one doesn't: cheat, swear, abuse, grief, etc. And those that
do, aren't reading it either. They can "plaster" it with ads for
all I care.

As for the actual SUBJECT of this topic (its gone way off-topic
with the ads stuff), I think valve is already moving into the
steam login required for setting up/running servers. Altho I think
they should set it up that server owners can make a new steam
account, and then request via web-page on steam to add server
functionality to it (for dedicated servers), after which they can
set up servers. That those should get linked to the owner's main
account and the communities steam group(s) should also be nice.
Once that is in place, a good "hammering" is possible.

    
*From:* Sampson Rogers mailto:kritskring...@gmail.com>>

*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
mailto:hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>>
*Sent:* Saturday, 11 August 2012, 5:46

*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of 1
click to get past with no extra effort. There is absolutely
nothing wrong with supporting servers by clicking right past
something you're not even required to view. Look at places
like Youtube, they have ads on nearly all of their videos you
have to wait a few seconds to get past and you can't tell me
Google needs more money. You can also disable HTML MOTD if you
choose, that sounds like a fair in between to me. No reason to
punish communities that provide a good gaming experience but
also run ads on the MOTD to keep the servers afloat. N

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

+1

- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" 
To: "Mart-Jan Reeuwijk" , "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server 
mailing list" 
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Olsen I like that you put so much thought into your posts but you seem to be 
mistaken. Not every server owner who has a problem with abusive server 
operators has dead servers and is just jealous wanting all that traffic. We run 
several servers with one in the top 70 and the rest are getting there. We have 
-very- popular servers. 


Please don't be under the impression that everyone complaining about Quickplay 
/ Fake Clients can't run their own populated servers. I'm not sure why you 
think the rest of us can't run popular servers because we're complaining about 
policy violations. 


Some people don't like seeing the system abused. If that results in more 
traffic for them, fine. But it's not like banning one or two abusive 
communities would have helped their efforts if they weren't dedicated owners in 
the first place. You have to work at it to get a community and players unless 
you cheat. Seeing that a few abusive operators are taken care of won't change 
that. 


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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Olsen I like that you put so much thought into your posts but you seem to
be mistaken. Not every server owner who has a problem with abusive server
operators has dead servers and is just jealous wanting all that traffic. We
run several servers with one in the top 70 and the rest are getting there.
We have -very- popular servers.

Please don't be under the impression that everyone complaining about
Quickplay / Fake Clients can't run their own populated servers. I'm not
sure why you think the rest of us can't run popular servers because we're
complaining about policy violations.

Some people don't like seeing the system abused. If that results in more
traffic for them, fine. But it's not like banning one or two abusive
communities would have helped their efforts if they weren't dedicated
owners in the first place. You have to work at it to get a community and
players unless you cheat. Seeing that a few abusive operators are taken
care of won't change that.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

The server score is completely defeated by fake clients.

Even if no one is on the server fake clients still show up as players thus 
elevating the score when no one is even playing. Within a few weeks you can 
have a highly ranked server without even having players on your server. So 
while your server is loosing rank in off peak hours fake client servers appear 
to be full still and jump ahead of you in rankings.

If you guys are not totally funding your servers with pinion by now. You have 
no idea what you are doing. You can bash ads all you want but it pays for all 
my servers.
Donations at this point are actually gravy.

Pinion is not going away so stop wishing. Players can disable html messages at 
any point or blacklist you so if you spam them with ADs you will end up empty 
soon enough.

Overall Fake Clients is a very serious issue and it undermines the server 
ranking. The entire point is it tricks the quickplay system into believing 
there are players on the server and therefore sends you more players which give 
you ad views.

Fake clients fill servers and if you think you can go toe to toe with a admin 
running fake clients you have lost your mind.
Players stay on servers with more players and quickplay sends them more 
players. F2P players have no idea the server is full of fake bots with 
artificial pings and avatars. While you wait for your servers to fill
Fake client servers are full first and stay full longer and this just defeats 
the server score you think is an equalizer. It most certainly is not.

Fake clients undermines the entire system.




- Original Message -
From: "E. Olsen" 
To: "Mart-Jan Reeuwijk" , "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server 
mailing list" 
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 7:10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


I think that everyone has already overlooked the fact that Valve already has in 
place the best method possible for weeding out poor servers - the server score. 
If a player leaves a server quickly (which I have to think they will with a 
bunch of fake clients, etc.) the score will decline over time, allowing the 
cream to rise to the top. 

Again - I think the root of the problem here is quickplay itself. Practically 
overnight, it has lulled new server operators into thinking that filling 
servers is not only easy, but is (for the most part) Valve's responsibility. It 
has also led to a rise in the use of fake clients/illegitimate bots in an 
attempt to garner as much of that "easy traffic" as possible. We've seen the 
effects of this every time there is a hiccup or small change in the system, as 
this list lights up with complaints of "quickplay is not working", or 
"quickplay no longer fills my servers", etc. etc. Those complaints are 
invariably followed by calls for more action against the bad players. 

Now, I'm all for taking action against the bad guys - the less of them the 
better (for the players, that is). My point is, even if Valve were able to rid 
the server list of every nefarious operators using these kinds of cheats, it 
wouldn't increase most server operator's traffic one bit over what you are 
already getting (which, if everyone who has their torch and pitchfork out would 
admit, is the motivation behind these debates - everyone wants the traffic 
those servers are getting). 

Looking at the other side of this debate, there's something to consider: 

1. Would you actually WANT a player willing to buy admin right and/or those 
premium "pay to win" benefits? I sure as hell wouldn't - that's one step up 
from buying a hack, IMO. If they're willing to do that, they're willing to 
exploit anything they can to win - no thanks. 

2. I agree that getting people to donate early on is next to impossible. My 
question is, than why would you? We went our first 9 months before accepting a 
single dime in donations. Build the value FIRST in your community, and the 
donations will come. If your next argument is that donations "dried up", so I 
HAD to run ads, I would submit to you that you failed to maintain and build the 
value in your community, and adding ads to your MOTD is not adding to that 
value, it's simply using random player connections/impressions as a means of 
keeping afloat. Will it pay your bills? Maybe...for a time, but Pinion would 
not be the first net advertising channel to go under due to poor sales 
conversions, and I doubt even the smallest fraction of players exposed to those 
ads are in the "buying" frame of mind, and click-thru/complete a purchase. Over 
time, Pinion's pool of advertisers may (IMO) most likely dry up, eliminating 
that source of revenue. What is your backup plan then? 

3. In the end, there is a fix to all this, but most involved in this 
conversation won't like it: Do away with quickplay for all but the newest 

Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[E. Olsen]

. Altho I think they should set it up that
> server owners can make a new steam account, and then request via web-page
> on steam to add server functionality to it (for dedicated servers), after
> which they can set up servers. That those should get linked to the owner's
> main account and the communities steam group(s) should also be nice. Once
> that is in place, a good "hammering" is possible.
>
>------
> *From:* Sampson Rogers 
>
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list <
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 11 August 2012, 5:46
>
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of 1 click to
> get past with no extra effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong with
> supporting servers by clicking right past something you're not even
> required to view. Look at places like Youtube, they have ads on nearly all
> of their videos you have to wait a few seconds to get past and you can't
> tell me Google needs more money. You can also disable HTML MOTD if you
> choose, that sounds like a fair in between to me. No reason to punish
> communities that provide a good gaming experience but also run ads on the
> MOTD to keep the servers afloat. Nothing wrong with it at all. Other
> communities shouldn't be frowned upon for needing a monetary hand in
> getting started or maintaining their servers as long as they do things the
> right way, don't exploit their users for only a quick buck and properly
> administrate their servers.
>
> The truth is, it is not always easy to get donations, even when you run a
> solid community, especially starting out.
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Dominik Friedrichs]

I think Valve already has full control over the process of clients 
joining a server (remember the Steam Ticket issues) thus it should be 
easy for them to prevent a client from connecting to a delisted server.


On 2012/08/11 12:27, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:


Same as for in-game adds, MOTD = disabled. No need to "read" them if one
doesn't: cheat, swear, abuse, grief, etc. And those that do, aren't
reading it either. They can "plaster" it with ads for all I care.

As for the actual SUBJECT of this topic (its gone way off-topic with the
ads stuff), I think valve is already moving into the steam login
required for setting up/running servers. Altho I think they should set
it up that server owners can make a new steam account, and then request
via web-page on steam to add server functionality to it (for dedicated
servers), after which they can set up servers. That those should get linked



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

?? Never see any ads on YT, oh, wait, I blocked them :)

Same as for in-game adds, MOTD = disabled. No need to "read" them if one 
doesn't: cheat, swear, abuse, grief, etc. And those that do, aren't reading it 
either. They can "plaster" it with ads for all I care. 

As for the actual SUBJECT of this topic (its gone way off-topic with the ads 
stuff), I think valve is already moving into the steam login required for 
setting up/running servers. Altho I think they should set it up that server 
owners can make a new steam account, and then request via web-page on steam to 
add server functionality to it (for dedicated servers), after which they can 
set up servers. That those should get linked to the owner's main account and 
the communities steam group(s) should also be nice. Once that is in place, a 
good "hammering" is possible.



>
> From: Sampson Rogers 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Saturday, 11 August 2012, 5:46
>Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
> 
>
>I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of 1 click to get 
>past with no extra effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting 
>servers by clicking right past something you're not even required to view. 
>Look at places like Youtube, they have ads on nearly all of their videos you 
>have to wait a few seconds to get past and you can't tell me Google needs more 
>money. You can also disable HTML MOTD if you choose, that sounds like a fair 
>in between to me. No reason to punish communities that provide a good gaming 
>experience but also run ads on the MOTD to keep the servers afloat. Nothing 
>wrong with it at all. Other communities shouldn't be frowned upon for needing 
>a monetary hand in getting started or maintaining their servers as long as 
>they do things the right way, don't exploit their users for only a quick buck 
>and properly administrate their servers.
>
>
>The truth is, it is not always easy to get donations, even when you run a 
>solid community, especially starting out.
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Cameron glad to see you're doing it right :) We have a server sub 70
ranked, too and the rest of them are getting there and we did things the
right way.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

Pay to win servers can't be used properly.  Donations can though

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Cameron Munroe
 wrote:
> Yes, but as well both can be used properly.
>
>
> On 8/10/2012 9:29 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
>
> Pay to win servers and running ads can both be abused, yes.  Which is why I
> do neither.  Is that what you meant by both?
>
> On 8/10/2012 9:26 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
> Yet you see that both can be abused?
>
>
> On 8/10/2012 9:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
>
> There is a middle ground, I feel.  I view it as my responsibility to fund
> the servers, but for those who choose to donate I simply give them access to
> reserved slots.  I have a handful of hidden slots set up so no one already
> in game gets kicked  when someone with a reserved slot chooses to join.
>
> The donator rights you describe are certainly deplorable.  I've never played
> on servers set up that way, but it sounds like those that do and donate are
> the sort who play through games using cheat codes to win.  That or they are
> naive and were tricked into believing that is how the game is meant to be
> played, which is a shortcoming of the quick play system in my opinion that
> people are sent to those servers in the first place.
>
> I also don't run a 32 player server.  I run 2 24 player servers, not that it
> matters.
>
> On 8/10/2012 9:00 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
> My only issue is that most donator rights come with a benefit. i.e. you
> donate you get round end immunity, which by all standards isn't bad. If you
> on a !rtd server you get 100% positive rolls. However, like many servers
> that I have been on you can also buy adminship, ban immunity, extra health,
> unlimited ammo, multiple senturies, noclip, 0 grav, and much much more.
> These are very simple ways of getting lots of people to donate, but they
> pollute the game. I've been on servers where there is purchasable adminship
> and all they did was abuse. I've been on servers with unlimited ammo and
> they just spammed the whole game. These servers you would think would go
> into the ground, but they don't they are safe as all the people who donated
> keep coming back for there kicks and people keep coming because the server
> has players. Finally those players buy it too and then you get servers which
> I fear. Where the only way to have fun, and some slight bit of success is to
> buy / donate and the only way to be better then everyone else is to donate
> more.
>
> The above is what scared me more then an ad, I don't even realize the ad is
> there much of the time anymore. However, I still find servers with the above
> living and breathing and there communities are 1+ on steam groups, with
> there auto-inviters. Yet I stayed small and let my community slowly blossom
> into a 161 steam group members =D and over 80K connects in less then 7
> months. I was asked if I wanted an auto-inviter, and I said "no." Yet people
> still no the name of my servers and they carry around the clan tag with
> pride. I never pushed them into using it, they just started to add it. There
> happy when they are on and in the end that is all that matters.  I never had
> to use a fake client cheat and I work swiftly to kill all cheaters. Yet this
> conversation is still based on one fact, "ads." I use them and people keep
> connecting. They come on to the server and quickly begin beating the crap
> out of other players, laughing and trying to sell that one item that they
> want to get rid of for a simple scrap. My server is ranked 52nd on
> gametracker so I must not be doing anything horribly wrong and mind you this
> is less then 6 months to almost the top. My server doesn't have the
> overzealous player count of 32, but a more reasonable 26.  Players keep
> coming and keep asking for more. My 26 player server is now nearly full 24/7
> and rarely blips down below  16 players. I compete with your 32 and yet I
> survive.
>
> The fact is that even if you say that ads are against your community, there
> what keeps mine up. Players say "...YOUR SERVER HAD RUINED ME FOR ALL
> OTHER[s]" and yet I still have ads.
>
> You think that ads kill communities, I think abusive admins, and
> unrestrained donator rights do.
>
> The End.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Yes, but as well both can be used properly.

On 8/10/2012 9:29 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
Pay to win servers and running ads can both be abused, yes.  Which is 
why I do neither.  Is that what you meant by both?


On 8/10/2012 9:26 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Yet you see that both can be abused?


On 8/10/2012 9:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
There is a middle ground, I feel.  I view it as my responsibility to 
fund the servers, but for those who choose to donate I simply give 
them access to reserved slots.  I have a handful of hidden slots set 
up so no one already in game gets kicked  when someone with a 
reserved slot chooses to join.


The donator rights you describe are certainly deplorable. I've never 
played on servers set up that way, but it sounds like those that do 
and donate are the sort who play through games using cheat codes to 
win.  That or they are naive and were tricked into believing that is 
how the game is meant to be played, which is a shortcoming of the 
quick play system in my opinion that people are sent to those 
servers in the first place.


I also don't run a 32 player server.  I run 2 24 player servers, not 
that it matters.


On 8/10/2012 9:00 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
My only issue is that most donator rights come with a benefit. i.e. 
you donate you get round end immunity, which by all standards isn't 
bad. If you on a !rtd server you get 100% positive rolls. However, 
like many servers that I have been on you can also buy adminship, 
ban immunity, extra health, unlimited ammo, multiple senturies, 
noclip, 0 grav, and much much more. These are very simple ways of 
getting lots of people to donate, but they pollute the game. I've 
been on servers where there is purchasable adminship and all they 
did was abuse. I've been on servers with unlimited ammo and they 
just spammed the whole game. These servers you would think would go 
into the ground, but they don't they are safe as all the people who 
donated keep coming back for there kicks and people keep coming 
because the server has players. Finally those players buy it too 
and then you get servers which I fear. Where the only way to have 
fun, and some slight bit of success is to buy / donate and the only 
way to be better then everyone else is to donate more.


The above is what scared me more then an ad, I don't even realize 
the ad is there much of the time anymore. However, I still find 
servers with the above living and breathing and there communities 
are 1+ on steam groups, with there auto-inviters. Yet I stayed 
small and let my community slowly blossom into a 161 steam group 
members =D and over 80K connects in less then 7 months. I was asked 
if I wanted an auto-inviter, and I said "no." Yet people still no 
the name of my servers and they carry around the clan tag with 
pride. I never pushed them into using it, they just started to add 
it. There happy when they are on and in the end that is all that 
matters.  I never had to use a fake client cheat and I work swiftly 
to kill all cheaters. Yet this conversation is still based on one 
fact, "ads." I use them and people keep connecting. They come on to 
the server and quickly begin beating the crap out of other players, 
laughing and trying to sell that one item that they want to get rid 
of for a simple scrap. My server is ranked 52nd on gametracker so I 
must not be doing anything horribly wrong and mind you this is less 
then 6 months to almost the top. My server doesn't have the 
overzealous player count of 32, but a more reasonable 26.  Players 
keep coming and keep asking for more. My 26 player server is now 
nearly full 24/7 and rarely blips down below  16 players. I compete 
with your 32 and yet I survive.


The fact is that even if you say that ads are against your 
community, there what keeps mine up. Players say "...YOUR SERVER 
HAD RUINED ME FOR ALL OTHER[s]" and yet I still have ads.


You think that ads kill communities, I think abusive admins, and 
unrestrained donator rights do.


The End.





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

Pay to win servers and running ads can both be abused, yes.  Which is 
why I do neither.  Is that what you meant by both?


On 8/10/2012 9:26 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Yet you see that both can be abused?


On 8/10/2012 9:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
There is a middle ground, I feel. I view it as my responsibility to 
fund the servers, but for those who choose to donate I simply give 
them access to reserved slots.  I have a handful of hidden slots set 
up so no one already in game gets kicked  when someone with a 
reserved slot chooses to join.


The donator rights you describe are certainly deplorable. I've never 
played on servers set up that way, but it sounds like those that do 
and donate are the sort who play through games using cheat codes to 
win.  That or they are naive and were tricked into believing that is 
how the game is meant to be played, which is a shortcoming of the 
quick play system in my opinion that people are sent to those servers 
in the first place.


I also don't run a 32 player server.  I run 2 24 player servers, not 
that it matters.


On 8/10/2012 9:00 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
My only issue is that most donator rights come with a benefit. i.e. 
you donate you get round end immunity, which by all standards isn't 
bad. If you on a !rtd server you get 100% positive rolls. However, 
like many servers that I have been on you can also buy adminship, 
ban immunity, extra health, unlimited ammo, multiple senturies, 
noclip, 0 grav, and much much more. These are very simple ways of 
getting lots of people to donate, but they pollute the game. I've 
been on servers where there is purchasable adminship and all they 
did was abuse. I've been on servers with unlimited ammo and they 
just spammed the whole game. These servers you would think would go 
into the ground, but they don't they are safe as all the people who 
donated keep coming back for there kicks and people keep coming 
because the server has players. Finally those players buy it too and 
then you get servers which I fear. Where the only way to have fun, 
and some slight bit of success is to buy / donate and the only way 
to be better then everyone else is to donate more.


The above is what scared me more then an ad, I don't even realize 
the ad is there much of the time anymore. However, I still find 
servers with the above living and breathing and there communities 
are 1+ on steam groups, with there auto-inviters. Yet I stayed 
small and let my community slowly blossom into a 161 steam group 
members =D and over 80K connects in less then 7 months. I was asked 
if I wanted an auto-inviter, and I said "no." Yet people still no 
the name of my servers and they carry around the clan tag with 
pride. I never pushed them into using it, they just started to add 
it. There happy when they are on and in the end that is all that 
matters.  I never had to use a fake client cheat and I work swiftly 
to kill all cheaters. Yet this conversation is still based on one 
fact, "ads." I use them and people keep connecting. They come on to 
the server and quickly begin beating the crap out of other players, 
laughing and trying to sell that one item that they want to get rid 
of for a simple scrap. My server is ranked 52nd on gametracker so I 
must not be doing anything horribly wrong and mind you this is less 
then 6 months to almost the top. My server doesn't have the 
overzealous player count of 32, but a more reasonable 26.  Players 
keep coming and keep asking for more. My 26 player server is now 
nearly full 24/7 and rarely blips down below  16 players. I compete 
with your 32 and yet I survive.


The fact is that even if you say that ads are against your 
community, there what keeps mine up. Players say "...YOUR SERVER HAD 
RUINED ME FOR ALL OTHER[s]" and yet I still have ads.


You think that ads kill communities, I think abusive admins, and 
unrestrained donator rights do.


The End.





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Yet you see that both can be abused?


On 8/10/2012 9:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
There is a middle ground, I feel.  I view it as my responsibility to 
fund the servers, but for those who choose to donate I simply give 
them access to reserved slots.  I have a handful of hidden slots set 
up so no one already in game gets kicked  when someone with a reserved 
slot chooses to join.


The donator rights you describe are certainly deplorable.  I've never 
played on servers set up that way, but it sounds like those that do 
and donate are the sort who play through games using cheat codes to 
win.  That or they are naive and were tricked into believing that is 
how the game is meant to be played, which is a shortcoming of the 
quick play system in my opinion that people are sent to those servers 
in the first place.


I also don't run a 32 player server.  I run 2 24 player servers, not 
that it matters.


On 8/10/2012 9:00 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
My only issue is that most donator rights come with a benefit. i.e. 
you donate you get round end immunity, which by all standards isn't 
bad. If you on a !rtd server you get 100% positive rolls. However, 
like many servers that I have been on you can also buy adminship, ban 
immunity, extra health, unlimited ammo, multiple senturies, noclip, 0 
grav, and much much more. These are very simple ways of getting lots 
of people to donate, but they pollute the game. I've been on servers 
where there is purchasable adminship and all they did was abuse. I've 
been on servers with unlimited ammo and they just spammed the whole 
game. These servers you would think would go into the ground, but 
they don't they are safe as all the people who donated keep coming 
back for there kicks and people keep coming because the server has 
players. Finally those players buy it too and then you get servers 
which I fear. Where the only way to have fun, and some slight bit of 
success is to buy / donate and the only way to be better then 
everyone else is to donate more.


The above is what scared me more then an ad, I don't even realize the 
ad is there much of the time anymore. However, I still find servers 
with the above living and breathing and there communities are 1+ 
on steam groups, with there auto-inviters. Yet I stayed small and let 
my community slowly blossom into a 161 steam group members =D and 
over 80K connects in less then 7 months. I was asked if I wanted an 
auto-inviter, and I said "no." Yet people still no the name of my 
servers and they carry around the clan tag with pride. I never pushed 
them into using it, they just started to add it. There happy when 
they are on and in the end that is all that matters.  I never had to 
use a fake client cheat and I work swiftly to kill all cheaters. Yet 
this conversation is still based on one fact, "ads." I use them and 
people keep connecting. They come on to the server and quickly begin 
beating the crap out of other players, laughing and trying to sell 
that one item that they want to get rid of for a simple scrap. My 
server is ranked 52nd on gametracker so I must not be doing anything 
horribly wrong and mind you this is less then 6 months to almost the 
top. My server doesn't have the overzealous player count of 32, but a 
more reasonable 26. Players keep coming and keep asking for more. My 
26 player server is now nearly full 24/7 and rarely blips down below  
16 players. I compete with your 32 and yet I survive.


The fact is that even if you say that ads are against your community, 
there what keeps mine up. Players say "...YOUR SERVER HAD RUINED ME 
FOR ALL OTHER[s]" and yet I still have ads.


You think that ads kill communities, I think abusive admins, and 
unrestrained donator rights do.


The End.





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

There is a middle ground, I feel.  I view it as my responsibility to 
fund the servers, but for those who choose to donate I simply give them 
access to reserved slots. I have a handful of hidden slots set up so no 
one already in game gets kicked  when someone with a reserved slot 
chooses to join.


The donator rights you describe are certainly deplorable.  I've never 
played on servers set up that way, but it sounds like those that do and 
donate are the sort who play through games using cheat codes to win.  
That or they are naive and were tricked into believing that is how the 
game is meant to be played, which is a shortcoming of the quick play 
system in my opinion that people are sent to those servers in the first 
place.


I also don't run a 32 player server.  I run 2 24 player servers, not 
that it matters.


On 8/10/2012 9:00 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
My only issue is that most donator rights come with a benefit. i.e. 
you donate you get round end immunity, which by all standards isn't 
bad. If you on a !rtd server you get 100% positive rolls. However, 
like many servers that I have been on you can also buy adminship, ban 
immunity, extra health, unlimited ammo, multiple senturies, noclip, 0 
grav, and much much more. These are very simple ways of getting lots 
of people to donate, but they pollute the game. I've been on servers 
where there is purchasable adminship and all they did was abuse. I've 
been on servers with unlimited ammo and they just spammed the whole 
game. These servers you would think would go into the ground, but they 
don't they are safe as all the people who donated keep coming back for 
there kicks and people keep coming because the server has players. 
Finally those players buy it too and then you get servers which I 
fear. Where the only way to have fun, and some slight bit of success 
is to buy / donate and the only way to be better then everyone else is 
to donate more.


The above is what scared me more then an ad, I don't even realize the 
ad is there much of the time anymore. However, I still find servers 
with the above living and breathing and there communities are 1+ 
on steam groups, with there auto-inviters. Yet I stayed small and let 
my community slowly blossom into a 161 steam group members =D and over 
80K connects in less then 7 months. I was asked if I wanted an 
auto-inviter, and I said "no." Yet people still no the name of my 
servers and they carry around the clan tag with pride. I never pushed 
them into using it, they just started to add it. There happy when they 
are on and in the end that is all that matters.  I never had to use a 
fake client cheat and I work swiftly to kill all cheaters. Yet this 
conversation is still based on one fact, "ads." I use them and people 
keep connecting. They come on to the server and quickly begin beating 
the crap out of other players, laughing and trying to sell that one 
item that they want to get rid of for a simple scrap. My server is 
ranked 52nd on gametracker so I must not be doing anything horribly 
wrong and mind you this is less then 6 months to almost the top. My 
server doesn't have the overzealous player count of 32, but a more 
reasonable 26.  Players keep coming and keep asking for more. My 26 
player server is now nearly full 24/7 and rarely blips down below  16 
players. I compete with your 32 and yet I survive.


The fact is that even if you say that ads are against your community, 
there what keeps mine up. Players say "...YOUR SERVER HAD RUINED ME 
FOR ALL OTHER[s]" and yet I still have ads.


You think that ads kill communities, I think abusive admins, and 
unrestrained donator rights do.


The End.



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Cause evidential im ruining my servers by using them.

On 8/10/2012 9:22 PM, Daniel Barreiro wrote:

Why are we fighting over MOTD ads and not fighting over FAKE PLAYERS,
the whole reason this was started,

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Todd Pettit  wrote:

In addition all regular television is paid for by Ads. I don't know if you are 
aware of this but the GoDaddy girls don't have a damn thing to do with the 
Super Bowl. Do you feel this dilutes the NFL Brand?


- Original Message -
From: "Todd Pettit" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:15:57 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

How is partnering with pinion any different than Taco Bell selling Choco tacos 
from klondike, Mountain Dew, or Doritos Taco Shells?

My servers are the best servers because I monitor them offer the best plugins 
my users prefer and promote regular events where I give away prizes from the 
money pinion pays me.

Sooo... Diluted it is not. I have never got pissed at a restaurant cause they 
didn't make their own soda. Its cheaper and allows them to make a greater 
profit. I don't see people protesting.

- Original Message -
From: "Russell Smith" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:32:45 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're
not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're
promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.

I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay
by running a place that is welcoming and fun.

This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention
when they put in the web browser for the motd.

On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week because 
its a failed idea?

You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini coopers, hiring 
models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a ramp on a motorcycle on New 
Years Eve and running thousands of ads until every single one of us cannot possibly 
forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You Wings"?!?

Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
about what trade school you want to attend.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

You are naive...




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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Doctor McKay]

+1



Dr. McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com

-Original Message- 
From: Daniel Barreiro

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:22 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Why are we fighting over MOTD ads and not fighting over FAKE PLAYERS,
the whole reason this was started,

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Todd Pettit  wrote:
In addition all regular television is paid for by Ads. I don't know if you 
are aware of this but the GoDaddy girls don't have a damn thing to do with 
the Super Bowl. Do you feel this dilutes the NFL Brand?



- Original Message -
From: "Todd Pettit" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 


Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:15:57 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

How is partnering with pinion any different than Taco Bell selling Choco 
tacos from klondike, Mountain Dew, or Doritos Taco Shells?


My servers are the best servers because I monitor them offer the best 
plugins my users prefer and promote regular events where I give away 
prizes from the money pinion pays me.


Sooo... Diluted it is not. I have never got pissed at a restaurant cause 
they didn't make their own soda. Its cheaper and allows them to make a 
greater profit. I don't see people protesting.


- Original Message -
From: "Russell Smith" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 


Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:32:45 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're
not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're
promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.

I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay
by running a place that is welcoming and fun.

This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention
when they put in the web browser for the motd.

On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week 
because its a failed idea?


You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini 
coopers, hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to 
jump a ramp on a motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of ads 
until every single one of us cannot possibly forget the phrase "Red Bull 
Gives You Wings"?!?


Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start 
thinking about what trade school you want to attend.


- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 


Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

You are naive...





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

Why are we fighting over MOTD ads and not fighting over FAKE PLAYERS,
the whole reason this was started,

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Todd Pettit  wrote:
> In addition all regular television is paid for by Ads. I don't know if you 
> are aware of this but the GoDaddy girls don't have a damn thing to do with 
> the Super Bowl. Do you feel this dilutes the NFL Brand?
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Todd Pettit" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:15:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> How is partnering with pinion any different than Taco Bell selling Choco 
> tacos from klondike, Mountain Dew, or Doritos Taco Shells?
>
> My servers are the best servers because I monitor them offer the best plugins 
> my users prefer and promote regular events where I give away prizes from the 
> money pinion pays me.
>
> Sooo... Diluted it is not. I have never got pissed at a restaurant cause they 
> didn't make their own soda. Its cheaper and allows them to make a greater 
> profit. I don't see people protesting.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Russell Smith" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:32:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're
> not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're
> promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.
>
> I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a
> community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the
> players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay
> by running a place that is welcoming and fun.
>
> This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects
> poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for
> allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention
> when they put in the web browser for the motd.
>
> On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
>> I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week 
>> because its a failed idea?
>>
>> You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini 
>> coopers, hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a 
>> ramp on a motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of ads until 
>> every single one of us cannot possibly forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You 
>> Wings"?!?
>>
>> Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
>> about what trade school you want to attend.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "DontWannaName!" 
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
>> 
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>>
>> You are naive...
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Lol very silent now XD

On 8/10/2012 9:20 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

In addition all regular television is paid for by Ads. I don't know if you are 
aware of this but the GoDaddy girls don't have a damn thing to do with the 
Super Bowl. Do you feel this dilutes the NFL Brand?


- Original Message -
From: "Todd Pettit" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:15:57 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

How is partnering with pinion any different than Taco Bell selling Choco tacos 
from klondike, Mountain Dew, or Doritos Taco Shells?

My servers are the best servers because I monitor them offer the best plugins 
my users prefer and promote regular events where I give away prizes from the 
money pinion pays me.

Sooo... Diluted it is not. I have never got pissed at a restaurant cause they 
didn't make their own soda. Its cheaper and allows them to make a greater 
profit. I don't see people protesting.

- Original Message -
From: "Russell Smith" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:32:45 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're
not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're
promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.

I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay
by running a place that is welcoming and fun.

This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention
when they put in the web browser for the motd.

On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week because 
its a failed idea?

You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini coopers, hiring 
models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a ramp on a motorcycle on New 
Years Eve and running thousands of ads until every single one of us cannot possibly 
forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You Wings"?!?

Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
about what trade school you want to attend.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

You are naive...




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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

In addition all regular television is paid for by Ads. I don't know if you are 
aware of this but the GoDaddy girls don't have a damn thing to do with the 
Super Bowl. Do you feel this dilutes the NFL Brand?


- Original Message -
From: "Todd Pettit" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:15:57 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

How is partnering with pinion any different than Taco Bell selling Choco tacos 
from klondike, Mountain Dew, or Doritos Taco Shells? 

My servers are the best servers because I monitor them offer the best plugins 
my users prefer and promote regular events where I give away prizes from the 
money pinion pays me.

Sooo... Diluted it is not. I have never got pissed at a restaurant cause they 
didn't make their own soda. Its cheaper and allows them to make a greater 
profit. I don't see people protesting.

- Original Message -
From: "Russell Smith" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:32:45 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're 
not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're 
promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.

I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a 
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the 
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay 
by running a place that is welcoming and fun.

This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects 
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for 
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention 
when they put in the web browser for the motd.

On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
> I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week 
> because its a failed idea?
>
> You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini 
> coopers, hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a 
> ramp on a motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of ads until 
> every single one of us cannot possibly forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You 
> Wings"?!?
>
> Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
> about what trade school you want to attend.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "DontWannaName!" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> You are naive...
>
>


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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

How is partnering with pinion any different than Taco Bell selling Choco tacos 
from klondike, Mountain Dew, or Doritos Taco Shells? 

My servers are the best servers because I monitor them offer the best plugins 
my users prefer and promote regular events where I give away prizes from the 
money pinion pays me.

Sooo... Diluted it is not. I have never got pissed at a restaurant cause they 
didn't make their own soda. Its cheaper and allows them to make a greater 
profit. I don't see people protesting.

- Original Message -
From: "Russell Smith" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:32:45 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're 
not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're 
promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.

I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a 
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the 
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay 
by running a place that is welcoming and fun.

This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects 
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for 
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention 
when they put in the web browser for the motd.

On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
> I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week 
> because its a failed idea?
>
> You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini 
> coopers, hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a 
> ramp on a motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of ads until 
> every single one of us cannot possibly forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You 
> Wings"?!?
>
> Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
> about what trade school you want to attend.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "DontWannaName!" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> You are naive...
>
>


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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Dave Rosca]

That's my general feeling too. The problem with motd ads is when you add
them long after you started running the server. It's a similar problem to
adding donor perks. Regulars might not respond well to suddenly being
advertised to, or to being kicked when a donor claims his reserved slot.
It's unwelcoming.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

> The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're
> not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're
> promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.
>
> I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a
> community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the
> players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay by
> running a place that is welcoming and fun.
>
> This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects poorly
> on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for allowing this in
> the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention when they put in the
> web browser for the motd.
>
>
> On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
>
>> I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week
>> because its a failed idea?
>>
>> You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini
>> coopers, hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump
>> a ramp on a motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of ads until
>> every single one of us cannot possibly forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives
>> You Wings"?!?
>>
>> Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start
>> thinking about what trade school you want to attend.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "DontWannaName!" 
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>>
>> You are naive...
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

My only issue is that most donator rights come with a benefit. i.e. you 
donate you get round end immunity, which by all standards isn't bad. If 
you on a !rtd server you get 100% positive rolls. However, like many 
servers that I have been on you can also buy adminship, ban immunity, 
extra health, unlimited ammo, multiple senturies, noclip, 0 grav, and 
much much more. These are very simple ways of getting lots of people to 
donate, but they pollute the game. I've been on servers where there is 
purchasable adminship and all they did was abuse. I've been on servers 
with unlimited ammo and they just spammed the whole game. These servers 
you would think would go into the ground, but they don't they are safe 
as all the people who donated keep coming back for there kicks and 
people keep coming because the server has players. Finally those players 
buy it too and then you get servers which I fear. Where the only way to 
have fun, and some slight bit of success is to buy / donate and the only 
way to be better then everyone else is to donate more.


The above is what scared me more then an ad, I don't even realize the ad 
is there much of the time anymore. However, I still find servers with 
the above living and breathing and there communities are 1+ on steam 
groups, with there auto-inviters. Yet I stayed small and let my 
community slowly blossom into a 161 steam group members =D and over 80K 
connects in less then 7 months. I was asked if I wanted an auto-inviter, 
and I said "no." Yet people still no the name of my servers and they 
carry around the clan tag with pride. I never pushed them into using it, 
they just started to add it. There happy when they are on and in the end 
that is all that matters.  I never had to use a fake client cheat and I 
work swiftly to kill all cheaters. Yet this conversation is still based 
on one fact, "ads." I use them and people keep connecting. They come on 
to the server and quickly begin beating the crap out of other players, 
laughing and trying to sell that one item that they want to get rid of 
for a simple scrap. My server is ranked 52nd on gametracker so I must 
not be doing anything horribly wrong and mind you this is less then 6 
months to almost the top. My server doesn't have the overzealous player 
count of 32, but a more reasonable 26.  Players keep coming and keep 
asking for more. My 26 player server is now nearly full 24/7 and rarely 
blips down below  16 players. I compete with your 32 and yet I survive.


The fact is that even if you say that ads are against your community, 
there what keeps mine up. Players say "...YOUR SERVER HAD RUINED ME FOR 
ALL OTHER[s]" and yet I still have ads.


You think that ads kill communities, I think abusive admins, and 
unrestrained donator rights do.


The End.

On 8/10/2012 8:32 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. 
You're not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. 
Instead you're promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.


I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a 
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the 
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to 
stay by running a place that is welcoming and fun.


This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects 
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for 
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention 
when they put in the web browser for the motd.


On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every 
week because its a failed idea?


You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini 
coopers, hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to 
jump a ramp on a motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of 
ads until every single one of us cannot possibly forget the phrase 
"Red Bull Gives You Wings"?!?


Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start 
thinking about what trade school you want to attend.


- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 


Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

You are naive...





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Well I'm sure there are a few people who immediately disconnect when they
see an ad based on principle, but oh well. People will not always be happy
and servers aren't free. Hopefully people see you provide a fun gaming
experience and come back.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

It is unrealistic to expect donations when you're first starting out.  I 
expect players would be even more unwilling to donate to the server when 
you start throwing ads in their face, so you're forcing yourself down 
that slippery slope.


On 8/10/2012 8:46 PM, Sampson Rogers wrote:
I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of 1 click 
to get past with no extra effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong 
with supporting servers by clicking right past something you're not 
even required to view. Look at places like Youtube, they have ads on 
nearly all of their videos you have to wait a few seconds to get past 
and you can't tell me Google needs more money. You can also disable 
HTML MOTD if you choose, that sounds like a fair in between to me. No 
reason to punish communities that provide a good gaming experience but 
also run ads on the MOTD to keep the servers afloat. Nothing wrong 
with it at all. Other communities shouldn't be frowned upon for 
needing a monetary hand in getting started or maintaining their 
servers as long as they do things the right way, don't exploit their 
users for only a quick buck and properly administrate their servers.


The truth is, it is not always easy to get donations, even when you 
run a solid community, especially starting out.



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

I see no harm in servers running a MOTD ad that takes all of 1 click to get
past with no extra effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong with
supporting servers by clicking right past something you're not even
required to view. Look at places like Youtube, they have ads on nearly all
of their videos you have to wait a few seconds to get past and you can't
tell me Google needs more money. You can also disable HTML MOTD if you
choose, that sounds like a fair in between to me. No reason to punish
communities that provide a good gaming experience but also run ads on the
MOTD to keep the servers afloat. Nothing wrong with it at all. Other
communities shouldn't be frowned upon for needing a monetary hand in
getting started or maintaining their servers as long as they do things the
right way, don't exploit their users for only a quick buck and properly
administrate their servers.

The truth is, it is not always easy to get donations, even when you run a
solid community, especially starting out.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Now you are personally attacking people and not the argument. Take ENG 
201, you might learn critical thinking =)



On 8/10/2012 6:41 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:

You are naive...

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Todd Pettit  wrote:

Maybe you should tell Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, TNT, BRAVO, BET, 
MTV, SPIKE, HULU
All of which 100 percent of their revenue from ADs! What morons they are.

Maybe you should go right to the source and tell Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, 
Subway, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, GE, Toyota, Ford...

I hope you are about 10 years old. You have much to learn young padawan.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Cc: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:27:05 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?



Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and 
that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my opinion.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com > 
wrote:





My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion.


Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your 
MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough. Even then, you just pay 
the difference. It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get 
into that one right now.




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com > 
wrote:


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see the 
MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

The difference is Red Bull is going out and promoting themselves. You're 
not promoting yourself when you show an ad in your motd. Instead you're 
promoting someone else and diluting your community brand.


I feel like this crosses a line where you're no longer trying to run a 
community, but rather run a business.  At that point it seems like the 
players are being used to feed the business instead of persuaded to stay 
by running a place that is welcoming and fun.


This is my gut feeling as a player.  I also feel like this reflects 
poorly on not only the server, but on Valve as the developer for 
allowing this in the game.  I can't imagine that was their intention 
when they put in the web browser for the motd.


On 8/10/2012 6:58 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week because 
its a failed idea?

You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini coopers, hiring 
models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a ramp on a motorcycle on New 
Years Eve and running thousands of ads until every single one of us cannot possibly 
forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You Wings"?!?

Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
about what trade school you want to attend.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

You are naive...





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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

I doubt an inexperienced admin is running servers on a dedicated and would
probably have his issue sorted out quickly with support from his GSP.

Either way, this isn't reason enough to hold back harsh punishments on
communities doing this.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

The next person gets really screwed. I have had it happen to me. It is easy to 
spot though since the server will still not show up.
Still it is a nightmare for an inexperienced admin.

- Original Message -
From: "Daniel Barreiro" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 10:28:30 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

One problem with IPS, is if Valve bans the IP of a server host, what
happens when someone else gets the IP?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:
> This just causes more trouble for Valve since they have to manually ban each
> new IP every time it comes up. Severe consequences will do better for
> prevention.
>
>
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
>
> -Original Message- From: Todd Pettit
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:04 PM
>
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their
> communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans,
> probably gameme and maybe more.
> The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL loose
> their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track down the
> servers and if they are using fake clients report them to
> they die.
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sampson Rogers" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
>
> Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw
> several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point of
> this post isn't about advertisements.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Doctor McKay]

All the more reason stricter punishments should be dealt out. If an abusive 
community continues getting IPs banned, then those are more IPs that people 
may end up with in the future that are of no use to them.




Dr. McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com

-Original Message- 
From: Daniel Barreiro

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 10:28 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

One problem with IPS, is if Valve bans the IP of a server host, what
happens when someone else gets the IP?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Doctor McKay  
wrote:
This just causes more trouble for Valve since they have to manually ban 
each

new IP every time it comes up. Severe consequences will do better for
prevention.




Dr. McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com

-Original Message- From: Todd Pettit
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:04 PM

To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their
communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans,
probably gameme and maybe more.
The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL 
loose
their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track down 
the

servers and if they are using fake clients report them to
they die.



- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw
several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point 
of

this post isn't about advertisements.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

One problem with IPS, is if Valve bans the IP of a server host, what
happens when someone else gets the IP?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:
> This just causes more trouble for Valve since they have to manually ban each
> new IP every time it comes up. Severe consequences will do better for
> prevention.
>
>
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
>
> -Original Message- From: Todd Pettit
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:04 PM
>
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
> Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their
> communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans,
> probably gameme and maybe more.
> The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL loose
> their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track down the
> servers and if they are using fake clients report them to
> they die.
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sampson Rogers" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
>
> Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw
> several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point of
> this post isn't about advertisements.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Doctor McKay]

This just causes more trouble for Valve since they have to manually ban each 
new IP every time it comes up. Severe consequences will do better for 
prevention.




Dr. McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com

-Original Message- 
From: Todd Pettit

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:04 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their 
communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans, 
probably gameme and maybe more.
The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL loose 
their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track down the 
servers and if they are using fake clients report them to

they die.



- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 


Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw 
several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point of 
this post isn't about advertisements.

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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I would recommend you report them to Valve directly because posting them here 
may likely may you a target for revenge.

- Original Message -
From: "Team BOOM!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:44:06 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Can someone post the IPs of some servers using the fake clients or spoofing
bots like you speak of? I'd like to see what they look like and don't see
any in the server list under SV_REGION 255. By the amount of discussion on
the topic over the past few weeks, I just thought there would be a bunch of
them but I'm not seeing anything obvious.

Thank you.

-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Todd Pettit
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:29 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Maybe you should tell Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, TNT, BRAVO, BET,
MTV, SPIKE, HULU
All of which 100 percent of their revenue from ADs! What morons they are.

Maybe you should go right to the source and tell Coca-Cola, Pepsi,
McDonalds, Subway, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, GE, Toyota, Ford...

I hope you are about 10 years old. You have much to learn young padawan.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"

Cc: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:27:05 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?



Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and
that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my
opinion. 

Sent from my iPhone 4 

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro <
smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com > wrote: 





My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion. 


Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your
MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough. Even then, you just pay
the difference. It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get
into that one right now. 




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com >
wrote: 


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's
not true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally
see the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I am? You think pinion is getting bigger and bigger sponsors every week because 
its a failed idea? 

You think Red Bull are idiots for having plane races, modifiying mini coopers, 
hiring models, buying a arena football team, hiring a man to jump a ramp on a 
motorcycle on New Years Eve and running thousands of ads until every single one 
of us cannot possibly forget the phrase "Red Bull Gives You Wings"?!?

Well sir you need an education in Economics 101 or you better start thinking 
about what trade school you want to attend.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

You are naive...

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Todd Pettit  wrote:
> Maybe you should tell Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, TNT, BRAVO, BET, 
> MTV, SPIKE, HULU
> All of which 100 percent of their revenue from ADs! What morons they are.
>
> Maybe you should go right to the source and tell Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, 
> Subway, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, GE, Toyota, Ford...
>
> I hope you are about 10 years old. You have much to learn young padawan.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "DontWannaName!" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Cc: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:27:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
>
>
> Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and 
> that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my 
> opinion.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion.
>
>
> Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your 
> MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough. Even then, you just pay 
> the difference. It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get 
> into that one right now.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com > 
> wrote:
>
>
> Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
> true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see 
> the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone.
> ___
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> visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Team BOOM!]

Can someone post the IPs of some servers using the fake clients or spoofing
bots like you speak of? I'd like to see what they look like and don't see
any in the server list under SV_REGION 255. By the amount of discussion on
the topic over the past few weeks, I just thought there would be a bunch of
them but I'm not seeing anything obvious.

Thank you.

-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Todd Pettit
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:29 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Maybe you should tell Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, TNT, BRAVO, BET,
MTV, SPIKE, HULU
All of which 100 percent of their revenue from ADs! What morons they are.

Maybe you should go right to the source and tell Coca-Cola, Pepsi,
McDonalds, Subway, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, GE, Toyota, Ford...

I hope you are about 10 years old. You have much to learn young padawan.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"

Cc: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:27:05 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?



Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and
that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my
opinion. 

Sent from my iPhone 4 

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro <
smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com > wrote: 





My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion. 


Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your
MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough. Even then, you just pay
the difference. It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get
into that one right now. 




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com >
wrote: 


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's
not true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally
see the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

You are naive...

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Todd Pettit  wrote:
> Maybe you should tell Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, TNT, BRAVO, BET, 
> MTV, SPIKE, HULU
> All of which 100 percent of their revenue from ADs! What morons they are.
>
> Maybe you should go right to the source and tell Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, 
> Subway, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, GE, Toyota, Ford...
>
> I hope you are about 10 years old. You have much to learn young padawan.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "DontWannaName!" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Cc: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:27:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>
>
>
> Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and 
> that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my 
> opinion.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion.
>
>
> Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your 
> MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough. Even then, you just pay 
> the difference. It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get 
> into that one right now.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com > 
> wrote:
>
>
> Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
> true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see 
> the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone.
> ___
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> visit:
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>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

Maybe you should tell Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, TNT, BRAVO, BET, 
MTV, SPIKE, HULU
All of which 100 percent of their revenue from ADs! What morons they are.

Maybe you should go right to the source and tell Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, 
Subway, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, GE, Toyota, Ford...

I hope you are about 10 years old. You have much to learn young padawan.

- Original Message -
From: "DontWannaName!" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Cc: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:27:05 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?



Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and 
that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my opinion. 

Sent from my iPhone 4 

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro < smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 





My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion. 


Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your 
MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough. Even then, you just pay 
the difference. It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get 
into that one right now. 




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see the 
MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[1nsane]

The only field of interest when checking if ipis banned would be rejected.
1 or 0.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:14 PM, RSS List User wrote:

>  Your right, does anyone have a list of what the codes that thing returns
> mean?
>
>
> On 8/10/2012 9:13 PM, 1nsane wrote:
>
> You can use the API fletcher posted to check your ips against at any time.
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:11 PM, RSS List User 
> wrote:
>
>> Is there any way VALVe can notify providers (such as us) if our IPs are
>> being used for such things?
>>
>>
>> On 8/10/2012 9:04 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
>>
>>> Any server who wants to squeeze 50 Ads in a MOTD window that is their
>>> prerogative. The window displays one time on connection.
>>>
>>> Also if you have a problem with fake client servers. Get on the server
>>> hit F7 and submit a damn report. If they start a new server do it again.
>>> Eventually they will loose.
>>>
>>> Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their
>>> communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans,
>>> probably gameme and maybe more.
>>> The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL
>>> loose their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track
>>> down the servers and if they are using fake clients report them to
>>> they die.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sampson Rogers" 
>>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>>>
>>>
>>> Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw
>>> several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point
>>> of this post isn't about advertisements.
>>> ___
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>>> please visit:
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>>
>>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I agree with 90 percent of that. But point 3 is not necessarily true. I run an 
end of round message every 3 rounds or so because I run 24/7 map servers and no 
one likes to go through a map change.
I also fund my servers with ads and want my community to be happy so I give 
them the 24/7 servers they love and run an occasional AD so I can actually pay 
for the server. I would absolutely love to 
run an AD at the end of every single round and theoretically make more money. 
In reality I would end up with an empty server because no player will stand for 
it and I would end up loosing money.

Its not abuse if the players stay and play. If some of you don't see it this 
way I wonder how much time you actually spend listening to your players.

Want to make more money spamming MOTD AD's every round... Go ahead try it and 
see what happens.

- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:01:21 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Man some of you guys are just hellbent on keeping this about advertisements. It 
is my opinion that running ads are okay. It is also my opinion that if a 
community has grown big enough to make a large profit off of those ads they 
shouldn't be punished for it. At the same time, that is contingent on the 
server operators also maintaining a quality gaming experience. If you're one of 
those admins who tosses up several dozen servers, overloading your systems and 
trying to earn a buck? I have no sympathy for you. 


1. Ads in the MOTD are okay. 
2. Several ads jammed in to the MOTD are annoying, but okay I suppose. 
3. Servers that redisplay the MOTD at any point OTHER than map cycle are 
abusive. 
4. Servers that trick the system in to bringing new players in via Quickplay 
when they don't have any REAL players are abusive. 


That is all my opinion, of course. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[RSS List User]

Your right, does anyone have a list of what the codes that thing returns 
mean?


On 8/10/2012 9:13 PM, 1nsane wrote:

You can use the API fletcher posted to check your ips against at any time.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:11 PM, RSS List User 
mailto:l...@redspeedservers.com>> wrote:


Is there any way VALVe can notify providers (such as us) if our
IPs are being used for such things?


On 8/10/2012 9:04 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

Any server who wants to squeeze 50 Ads in a MOTD window that
is their prerogative. The window displays one time on connection.

Also if you have a problem with fake client servers. Get on
the server hit F7 and submit a damn report. If they start a
new server do it again. Eventually they will loose.

Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert
their communities, register quickplay with new accounts,
update sourcebans, probably gameme and maybe more.
The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted
they WILL loose their community and will go broke. Its not
hard to follow up. Track down the servers and if they are
using fake clients report them to
they die.


- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" mailto:kritskring...@gmail.com>>
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
mailto:hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
    Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers
who throw several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just
one. Anyway, the point of this post isn't about advertisements.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[1nsane]

You can use the API fletcher posted to check your ips against at any time.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:11 PM, RSS List User wrote:

> Is there any way VALVe can notify providers (such as us) if our IPs are
> being used for such things?
>
>
> On 8/10/2012 9:04 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:
>
>> Any server who wants to squeeze 50 Ads in a MOTD window that is their
>> prerogative. The window displays one time on connection.
>>
>> Also if you have a problem with fake client servers. Get on the server
>> hit F7 and submit a damn report. If they start a new server do it again.
>> Eventually they will loose.
>>
>> Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their
>> communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans,
>> probably gameme and maybe more.
>> The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL
>> loose their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track
>> down the servers and if they are using fake clients report them to
>> they die.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Sampson Rogers" 
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?
>>
>>
>> Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw
>> several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point
>> of this post isn't about advertisements.
>> __**_
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>> please visit:
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>>
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>> please visit:
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>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[RSS List User]

Is there any way VALVe can notify providers (such as us) if our IPs are 
being used for such things?


On 8/10/2012 9:04 PM, Todd Pettit wrote:

Any server who wants to squeeze 50 Ads in a MOTD window that is their 
prerogative. The window displays one time on connection.

Also if you have a problem with fake client servers. Get on the server hit F7 
and submit a damn report. If they start a new server do it again. Eventually 
they will loose.

Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their 
communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans, probably 
gameme and maybe more.
The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL loose 
their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track down the 
servers and if they are using fake clients report them to
they die.

  


- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw several 
advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point of this post 
isn't about advertisements.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

Any server who wants to squeeze 50 Ads in a MOTD window that is their 
prerogative. The window displays one time on connection.

Also if you have a problem with fake client servers. Get on the server hit F7 
and submit a damn report. If they start a new server do it again. Eventually 
they will loose. 

Admins who have a server delisted have to: change IP's, alert their 
communities, register quickplay with new accounts, update sourcebans, probably 
gameme and maybe more.
The penalty is severe and if you keep getting them delisted they WILL loose 
their community and will go broke. Its not hard to follow up. Track down the 
servers and if they are using fake clients report them to 
they die.

 

- Original Message -
From: "Sampson Rogers" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:54:57 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw several 
advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point of this post 
isn't about advertisements. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Man some of you guys are just hellbent on keeping this about
advertisements. It is my opinion that running ads are okay. It is also my
opinion that if a community has grown big enough to make a large profit off
of those ads they shouldn't be punished for it. At the same time, that is
contingent on the server operators also maintaining a quality gaming
experience. If you're one of those admins who tosses up several dozen
servers, overloading your systems and trying to earn a buck? I have no
sympathy for you.

1. Ads in the MOTD are okay.
2. Several ads jammed in to the MOTD are annoying, but okay I suppose.
3. Servers that redisplay the MOTD at any point OTHER than map cycle are
abusive.
4. Servers that trick the system in to bringing new players in via
Quickplay when they don't have any REAL players are abusive.

That is all my opinion, of course.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

Cameron I would not sweat it. The people attacking you probably just are not 
able to cut it as admins.
They seem quite jealous. 

All you who say these ADS are being abused how the hell do you do that? It 
shows the same as a normal MOTD. The only way to abuse it is to rotate the map.

- Original Message -
From: "Cameron Munroe" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:13:06 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can 
tell, I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my 
servers up.

The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated 
way too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system 
at lotus gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more 
and more to ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they 
wanted a friend in the server immediately started a vote to kick a 
player. They also muted people simply because the person was young. So 
when asked "can I buy admin" for my servers I have repeatedly stated 
"No" because I know it will lead to abuse, which I don't want.


On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote:
> Oh that's sweet Russel :)
>
> I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like
> just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers
> 6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith 
>  wrote:
>
>> Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just 
>> curious what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the 
>> motd.  Is your goal to try and grow your community to the size of 
>> Lotus?
>>
>> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled 
>> mine after his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until 
>> this thread.
>>
>>
>> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>>> Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
>>> talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had 
>>> heavy
>>> amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi 
>>> admin
>>> rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
>>> wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my 
>>> own
>>> servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were 
>>> harming
>>> players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.
>>>
>>>
>>> A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
>>> join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
>>> location, or ethnicity.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
>>>> How do you define being a successful admin?
>>>>
>>>> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>>>>> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
>>>>> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the 
>>>>> Free
>>>>> to Play Generation.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.
>>
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-- 
-- Cameron Munroe

http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
http://www.munroenet.com/

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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Todd the comment of 'plastered' was mainly aimed at servers who throw
several advertisements in to the MOTD and not just one. Anyway, the point
of this post isn't about advertisements.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

You're right, but it's a game of cat and mouse Valve will never win,
especially if you look at this big picture wise. Valve monitoring the
reports from several thousand servers. I feel like if the punishments for
being delisted were modified a little they could be very effective. As it
stands, it's just about an IP address. It needs to, in my opinion, for the
servers who are repeat offenders, have harsher consequences. If you want to
continue doing something after Valve delists you, expect to have your huge
steam group disabled.

I understand it's a harsh punishment and some of my ideas are harsh, I
really do. And I don't think they should be the first thing relied upon to
send a message, but if communities want to be ignorant then Valve should
have no hesitations in dropping the hammer.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

What exactly do you mean plastered with ADs? Every server shows a motd on 
connection to the server. Some servers have an AD in place of the vanilla MOTD. 
How do you plaster ads? Change the map every 30 seconds?

- Original Message -
From: "E. Olsen" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:31:38 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?


So, essentially what some of you are asking for is that is a server operator 
gets delisted for any reason - even if it is a temporary punishment - they 
should pretty much have their community killed off as well? 

Seems pretty drastic, folks. While I'm all for delisting the folks Valve has in 
the past that are using redirect, fake clients, etc. etcthere's nothing 
wrong with a warning to get someone's attention (I'm sure most of you use temp 
bans as well as perma bans, right?). 

In any case - I wonder if we would even be having this discussion anymore if 
quickplay did not exist? Without quickplay, most of these large "commercial" 
outfits would not exist, as there is no way users would flock to servers 
plastered with ads on a regular basis. I'd personally like to see the effect of 
valve just turning quickplay off for 90 days or so for everyone. Those 
operators that actually do some traffic building would do fine - those guys 
using cheats/tricks to lure quickplay players would be ghost towns. 

Here's an idea - how about Valve disable quickplay for servers that use HTML 
MOTD's? That would eliminate alot of the abuse by preventing ads on 
quiickplay-enabled servers, right? 




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see the 
MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

Well if they continue to do it from new IPs I would just report them
again. It worked the first time?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Sampson Rogers  wrote:
> Yeah DWN I've reported the server and they've responded. They are, as you
> said, pretty good about responding to reports. It's just a little concerning
> that such servers can mitigate the consequences by swapping IPs and
> Quickplay IDs.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Yeah DWN I've reported the server and they've responded. They are, as you
said, pretty good about responding to reports. It's just a little
concerning that such servers can mitigate the consequences by swapping IPs
and Quickplay IDs.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Todd Pettit]

I second that. If you do that. Have playing on Valve only servers.

- Original Message -
From: "Doctor McKay" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:28:37 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?





This is a horrible idea. The abuse here is **NOT** HTML MOTDs or ads. The abuse 
is fake players. Can we stay on topic please? 

Dr. McKay 
http://www.doctormckay.com 






From: E. Olsen 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:31 PM 
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes? 

Here's an idea - how about Valve disable quickplay for servers that use HTML 
MOTD's? That would eliminate alot of the abuse by preventing ads on 
quiickplay-enabled servers, right? 




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers < kritskring...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see the 
MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Doctor McKay]

This is a horrible idea. The abuse here is **NOT** HTML MOTDs or ads. The abuse 
is fake players. Can we stay on topic please?

Dr. McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com



From: E. Olsen 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 7:31 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

Here's an idea - how about Valve disable quickplay for servers that use HTML 
MOTD's? That would eliminate alot of the abuse by preventing ads on 
quiickplay-enabled servers, right?




On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers  wrote:

  Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see the 
MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Also I appologize Russel, just a little upset today. Work, servers, and mailing 
list getting to me.
On Aug 10, 2012, at 5:13 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:

> Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can tell, 
> I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my servers up.
> 
> The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated way 
> too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system at lotus 
> gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more and more to 
> ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they wanted a friend in 
> the server immediately started a vote to kick a player. They also muted 
> people simply because the person was young. So when asked "can I buy admin" 
> for my servers I have repeatedly stated "No" because I know it will lead to 
> abuse, which I don't want.
> 
> 
> On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote:
>> Oh that's sweet Russel :)
>> 
>> I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like
>> just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers
>> 6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>> 
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith  wrote:
>> 
>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just curious 
>>> what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd.  Is 
>>> your goal to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus?
>>> 
>>> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine after 
>>> his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this thread.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:
 Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
 talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy
 amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin
 rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
 wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own
 servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming
 players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.
 
 
 A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
 join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
 location, or ethnicity.
 
 
 On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
> How do you define being a successful admin?
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
>> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free
>> to Play Generation.
>> 
>> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.
>>> 
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> -- 
> -- Cameron Munroe
> 
> http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
> http://www.munroenet.com/
> 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Maybe I redirected my spat at the wrong person Russell, but as you can 
tell, I am slowly getting attacked because I use an ad to keep my 
servers up.


The reason I made my servers was because of lotus which I have repeated 
way too many times already, but I did it is because the donator system 
at lotus gave donators a semi-admin powers which is why I also went more 
and more to ads instead of donators. Pretty much any donator if they 
wanted a friend in the server immediately started a vote to kick a 
player. They also muted people simply because the person was young. So 
when asked "can I buy admin" for my servers I have repeatedly stated 
"No" because I know it will lead to abuse, which I don't want.



On 2012-08-10 16:54, DontWannaName! wrote:

Oh that's sweet Russel :)

I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like
just another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers
6 years ago, these types of ads are new and are being abused.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith 
 wrote:


Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just 
curious what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the 
motd.  Is your goal to try and grow your community to the size of 
Lotus?


Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled 
mine after his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until 
this thread.



On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had 
heavy
amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi 
admin

rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my 
own
servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were 
harming

players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.


A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
location, or ethnicity.


On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How do you define being a successful admin?

On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the 
Free

to Play Generation.

For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.


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http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
http://www.munroenet.com/

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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

Im sure valve would look into such claims if you reported them. They
usually respond.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:02 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You can't say whether a statement is false or not based on random
> assumptions by someone who isn't even part of that community or has access
> to any real stats.  Everyone's situation/setup is different.
>
> Servers that go through lots of players will make more from ads then servers
> that keep players playing longer. Can you really say that a server will get
> 750+ views a day? No, you can't.
>
> However this topic is not about communities that never got delisted (like
> Lotus) using ads. But rather about those that are being delisted and keep
> coming back with new ips doing the same thing again (and successfully).
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Cameron Munroe 
> wrote:
>>
>> Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking about
>> lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay for the bills
>> if you are setup correctly.
>>
>>
>> On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>>
>> The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a
>> server online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. Something
>> should be done to stop abusive ads.
>>
>> I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it would
>> ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the after effect of
>> their ban.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Though half or more of the legitimate servers also run Ads. So the fact
>> still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If valve killed ads
>> then good bye community after community. Frankly the world is in a recession
>> and people are more and more into keeping there money in their pockets. So
>> server owners have gone to a new idea called ads to support themselves.
>>
>> On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>>
>> Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted
>> servers so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion.
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers 
>> wrote:
>>
>> The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any
>> Valve policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive
>> communities through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to
>> advertisements?
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[1nsane]

You can't say whether a statement is false or not based on random
assumptions by someone who isn't even part of that community or has access
to any real stats.  Everyone's situation/setup is different.

Servers that go through lots of players will make more from ads then
servers that keep players playing longer. Can you really say that a server
will get 750+ views a day? No, you can't.

However this topic is not about communities that never got delisted (like
Lotus) using ads. But rather about those that are being delisted and keep
coming back with new ips doing the same thing again (and successfully).

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Cameron Munroe
wrote:

>  Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking about
> lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay for the bills
> if you are setup correctly.
>
>
> On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>
> The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a
> server online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. Something
> should be done to stop abusive ads.
>
>  I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it
> would ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the after
> effect of their ban.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe 
> wrote:
>
>   Though half or more of the *legitimate* servers also run Ads. So the
> fact still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If valve
> killed ads then good bye community after community. Frankly the world is in
> a recession and people are more and more into keeping there money in their
> pockets. So server owners have gone to a new idea called ads to support
> themselves.
>
> On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>
> Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted 
> servers so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers  
>  wrote:
>
>
>  The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any 
> Valve policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive 
> communities through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to 
> advertisements?
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

Oh that's sweet Russel :)

I didn't either. The more you get caught in the more you end up like just 
another McDonalds. Iv seen a lot since I started running servers 6 years ago, 
these types of ads are new and are being abused.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Russell Smith  wrote:

> Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just curious 
> what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the motd.  Is your 
> goal to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus?
> 
> Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine after 
> his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this thread.
> 
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>> Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
>> talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy
>> amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin
>> rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
>> wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own
>> servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming
>> players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.
>> 
>> 
>> A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
>> join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
>> location, or ethnicity.
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
>>> How do you define being a successful admin?
>>> 
>>> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:
 Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
 people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free
 to Play Generation.
 
 For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.
> 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you.  I am just 
curious what would bring you to the decision of setting up ads in the 
motd.  Is your goal to try and grow your community to the size of Lotus?


Before I set up my servers I played on DWN's servers and modeled mine 
after his.  I didn't even know ads in the motd were a thing until this 
thread.



On 10.08.2012 16:38, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets
talk about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had 
heavy

amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin
rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they
wanted and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own
servers because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming
players that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.


A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can
join and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race,
location, or ethnicity.


On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How do you define being a successful admin?

On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the 
Free

to Play Generation.

For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.


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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Olsen, the warning sent by a delisting should be enough to a community
breaking a rule but not willing to suffer the consequences but these
consequences mostly affect a smaller community.

What should Valve do to a community that can quickly get around this
punishment via a new Quickplay ID and a new IP address? I'll tell you who
wins that cat and mouse game and it's not Valve.

There needs to be more permanence in the punishment for servers that don't
take the hint when delisted. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Im going off on your topic since you seem to be attacking me. Lets talk 
about donations then. I used to play on lotusclan which had heavy 
amounts of donators. These donators were pretty much given semi admin 
rights on the servers where they could do what ever the hell they wanted 
and no one could do anything about it. I left and built my own servers 
because of lotusclan and the fact that donators were harming players 
that were fun, and enjoyable to have on the server.



A successful [Owner]: provide an enviorment where any player, can join 
and have fun without fearing segregation because of age, race, location, 
or ethnicity.



On 8/10/2012 4:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How do you define being a successful admin?

On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free
to Play Generation.

For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.

On 8/10/2012 4:29 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
Do you feel like you've overextended your budget and that's why 
you're running ads in the motd?


I'm just curious.  I run servers as a hobby and so I only currently 
run a modest 2 TF2 servers.  I've never run ads or even asked for 
donations from players, though I have got a few from players 
approaching me to ask if they can help out with costs.


On 10.08.2012 16:24, Cameron Munroe wrote:

11

On 8/10/2012 4:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How many servers do you run?

On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do I
run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?




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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[omalley . dev]

I have never agreed more. I have gotten 32 emails to my phone in the past 15 
minutes.
Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Barreiro 
Sender: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:34:46 
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Reply-To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list

Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

Off topic: I think Valve should set up a server discussion mailing list
that this kind of stuff could go into.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

> How do you define being a successful admin?
>
>
> On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
>> Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
>> people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free
>> to Play Generation.
>>
>> For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.
>>
>> On 8/10/2012 4:29 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Do you feel like you've overextended your budget and that's why you're
>>> running ads in the motd?
>>>
>>> I'm just curious.  I run servers as a hobby and so I only currently run
>>> a modest 2 TF2 servers.  I've never run ads or even asked for donations
>>> from players, though I have got a few from players approaching me to ask if
>>> they can help out with costs.
>>>
>>> On 10.08.2012 16:24, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>>>
 11

 On 8/10/2012 4:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

> How many servers do you run?
>
> On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>
>> Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do I
>> run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?
>>
>
>
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>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

How do you define being a successful admin?

On 10.08.2012 16:31, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that
people weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the 
Free

to Play Generation.

For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.

On 8/10/2012 4:29 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
Do you feel like you've overextended your budget and that's why 
you're running ads in the motd?


I'm just curious.  I run servers as a hobby and so I only currently 
run a modest 2 TF2 servers.  I've never run ads or even asked for 
donations from players, though I have got a few from players 
approaching me to ask if they can help out with costs.


On 10.08.2012 16:24, Cameron Munroe wrote:

11

On 8/10/2012 4:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How many servers do you run?

On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:
Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do 
I

run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?




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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[E. Olsen]

So, essentially what some of you are asking for is that is a server
operator gets delisted for any reason - even if it is a temporary
punishment - they should pretty much have their community killed off as
well?

Seems pretty drastic, folks. While I'm all for delisting the folks Valve
has in the past that are using redirect, fake clients, etc. etcthere's
nothing wrong with a warning to get someone's attention (I'm sure most of
you use temp bans as well as perma bans, right?).

In any case - I wonder if we would even be having this discussion anymore
if quickplay did not exist? Without quickplay, most of these large
"commercial" outfits would not exist, as there is no way users would flock
to servers plastered with ads on a regular basis. I'd personally like to
see the effect of valve just turning quickplay off for 90 days or so for
everyone. Those operators that actually do some traffic building would do
fine - those guys using cheats/tricks to lure quickplay players would be
ghost towns.

Here's an idea - how about Valve disable quickplay for servers that use
HTML MOTD's? That would eliminate alot of the abuse by preventing ads on
quiickplay-enabled servers, right?



On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers wrote:

> Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's
> not true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally
> see the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Actually I don't. The way I have come to slowly realize is that people 
weren't going to donate in my bracket of players. i.e. the Free to Play 
Generation.


For me to be successful I need servers with MOTDs.

On 8/10/2012 4:29 PM, Russell Smith wrote:
Do you feel like you've overextended your budget and that's why you're 
running ads in the motd?


I'm just curious.  I run servers as a hobby and so I only currently 
run a modest 2 TF2 servers.  I've never run ads or even asked for 
donations from players, though I have got a few from players 
approaching me to ask if they can help out with costs.


On 10.08.2012 16:24, Cameron Munroe wrote:

11

On 8/10/2012 4:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How many servers do you run?

On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do I
run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?




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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

I think all ad providers know that, but there is still many chances that 
I have seen and I have even watched an ad if it got my attention.


On 8/10/2012 4:27 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the 
ad and that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed 
idea in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro 
> wrote:



My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion.

Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads 
on your MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough.  Even 
then, you just pay the difference.  It's an ingenious idea, but it's 
off topic, so let's not get into that one right now.



On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers 
mailto:kritskring...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first
point, that's not true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection
only (When you normally see the MOTD) and 100% cover the server
cost off of pinion alone.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

Do you feel like you've overextended your budget and that's why you're 
running ads in the motd?


I'm just curious.  I run servers as a hobby and so I only currently run 
a modest 2 TF2 servers.  I've never run ads or even asked for donations 
from players, though I have got a few from players approaching me to ask 
if they can help out with costs.


On 10.08.2012 16:24, Cameron Munroe wrote:

11

On 8/10/2012 4:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How many servers do you run?

On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do I
run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?




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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Actually most of my server if not all are below 27. I try and keep the 
game servers very very unlaggy therefore no 32. The servers do pay for 
themselves at least in my case.


On 8/10/2012 4:25 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:

Maybe a single ran server. Those are cheap. Maybe 15 bucks for 32 slots.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:21 PM, Cameron Munroe > wrote:


Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking 
about lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay 
for the bills if you are setup correctly.


On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a 
server online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. 
Something should be done to stop abusive ads.


I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it 
would ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the 
after effect of their ban.


Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe 
mailto:cmun...@cameronmunroe.com>> wrote:


Though half or more of the _*legitimate*_ servers also run Ads. So 
the fact still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If 
valve killed ads then good bye community after community. Frankly 
the world is in a recession and people are more and more into 
keeping there money in their pockets. So server owners have gone to 
a new idea called ads to support themselves.


On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:

Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted servers 
so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers  wrote:


The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any Valve 
policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive communities 
through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to advertisements?
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

Whoops, Hosts 32 slots for 15$ is what I meant.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Daniel Barreiro <
smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What host hosts 15$ for 32 slots?  Most hosts I see are charging 1$ a slot
> monthly with multi month discounts.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:25 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>
>> Maybe a single ran server. Those are cheap. Maybe 15 bucks for 32 slots.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:21 PM, Cameron Munroe 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking
>> about lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay for the
>> bills if you are setup correctly.
>>
>> On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>>
>> The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a
>> server online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. Something
>> should be done to stop abusive ads.
>>
>>  I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it
>> would ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the after
>> effect of their ban.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe 
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Though half or more of the *legitimate* servers also run Ads. So the
>> fact still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If valve
>> killed ads then good bye community after community. Frankly the world is in
>> a recession and people are more and more into keeping there money in their
>> pockets. So server owners have gone to a new idea called ads to support
>> themselves.
>>
>> On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>>
>> Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted 
>> servers so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers  
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>  The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any 
>> Valve policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive 
>> communities through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to 
>> advertisements?
>> ___
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

What host hosts 15$ for 32 slots?  Most hosts I see are charging 1$ a slot
monthly with multi month discounts.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:25 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:

> Maybe a single ran server. Those are cheap. Maybe 15 bucks for 32 slots.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:21 PM, Cameron Munroe 
> wrote:
>
>  Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking about
> lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay for the bills
> if you are setup correctly.
>
> On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>
> The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a
> server online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. Something
> should be done to stop abusive ads.
>
>  I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it
> would ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the after
> effect of their ban.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe 
> wrote:
>
>   Though half or more of the *legitimate* servers also run Ads. So the
> fact still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If valve
> killed ads then good bye community after community. Frankly the world is in
> a recession and people are more and more into keeping there money in their
> pockets. So server owners have gone to a new idea called ads to support
> themselves.
>
> On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>
> Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted 
> servers so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers  
>  wrote:
>
>
>  The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any 
> Valve policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive 
> communities through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to 
> advertisements?
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

Pinion should tell its ad providers that no one actually watches the ad and 
that a view is considered less than a second. It's a failed idea in my opinion.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Barreiro  
wrote:

> My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion.
> 
> Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on your 
> MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough.  Even then, you just pay 
> the difference.  It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so let's not get 
> into that one right now.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers  
> wrote:
> Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's not 
> true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally see 
> the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone. 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

A dedicated server that is running 4 game servers, to be exact.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

Maybe a single ran server. Those are cheap. Maybe 15 bucks for 32 slots.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:21 PM, Cameron Munroe  wrote:

> Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking about 
> lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay for the bills if 
> you are setup correctly.
> 
> On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
>> The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a server 
>> online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. Something should be 
>> done to stop abusive ads. 
>> 
>> I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it would 
>> ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the after effect of 
>> their ban.  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>> 
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Though half or more of the legitimate servers also run Ads. So the fact 
>>> still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If valve killed ads 
>>> then good bye community after community. Frankly the world is in a 
>>> recession and people are more and more into keeping there money in their 
>>> pockets. So server owners have gone to a new idea called ads to support 
>>> themselves. 
>>> 
>>> On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
 Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted 
 servers so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone 4
 
 On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers  
 wrote:
 
> The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any 
> Valve policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive 
> communities through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to 
> advertisements?
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 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
 please visit:
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Daniel Barreiro]

My community does this as well and it supports it 100% off of Pinion.

Pinion is actually now starting a game hosting company that runs ads on
your MOTD, and you only pay if the ads don't make enough.  Even then, you
just pay the difference.  It's an ingenious idea, but it's off topic, so
let's not get into that one right now.


On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Sampson Rogers wrote:

> Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's
> not true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally
> see the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

11

On 8/10/2012 4:23 PM, Russell Smith wrote:

How many servers do you run?

On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do I
run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[DontWannaName!]

Hey... A kids gotta get his fix.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Russell Smith  wrote:

> Out of curiosity, how many servers are you running for these  < 15 year olds 
> that this is such a necessity?
> 
> On 10.08.2012 16:03, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>> As I stated before most of my players are below 15 years and can't
>> access either paypal, or don't have the money so I can't run off
>> donations. I just simply can't.
> 
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Russell Smith]

How many servers do you run?

On 10.08.2012 16:20, Cameron Munroe wrote:

Im confused by your question, are you asking how many servers do I
run for less then 15 year olds, or how many servers I run?



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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Sampson Rogers]

Agreed fully with your second point DWN but as to the first point, that's
not true at all. We run MOTD on initial connection only (When you normally
see the MOTD) and 100% cover the server cost off of pinion alone.
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Re: [hlds] Server Delisting, does it need some changes?

[Cameron Munroe]

Your statement is false as already proved early by someone talking about 
lotusclan. You can make enough money via ads to at least pay for the 
bills if you are setup correctly.


On 8/10/2012 4:19 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:
The ads unless ran abusively will not provide enough money to keep a 
server online. It may supplement the bill but won't pay it all. 
Something should be done to stop abusive ads.


I also think delisted servers should lose their steam group since it 
would ruin their ability to leverage past users to mitigate the after 
effect of their ban.


Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Cameron Munroe > wrote:


Though half or more of the _*legitimate*_ servers also run Ads. So 
the fact still remains that some servers are breaking the rules. If 
valve killed ads then good bye community after community. Frankly the 
world is in a recession and people are more and more into keeping 
there money in their pockets. So server owners have gone to a new 
idea called ads to support themselves.


On 8/10/2012 4:11 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:

Ads are pretty relevant to what these servers are doing. Most delisted servers 
so far have also ran these motds in a modified fashion.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 10, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Sampson Rogers  wrote:


The point is that at the moment advertisements aren't really breaking any Valve 
policy. This thread is about more effective ways to handle abusive communities 
through delisting. Can we stop shifting the focus to advertisements?
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