Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

For someone claiming to be so logical there is distinct lack of reasoning.

"I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before
quickplay appeared on servers that were nearly always full.How did those
people join the server? Do you think they all had comp sci phds or
something?"

Before Valve shrunk the size of the TF2 Browse button by 1/2 and stuffed it
under Quickplay and MvM, everyone who played TF2 was forced to learn how to
use the browser. Sure a server will recover, but it will take as long as
half a year and sometimes won't even return to its original size. Even if
someone knows how to favorite a server, who wants to dig it out of 10,000
TF2 servers? Personally I wouldn't want to either.

I will try to make this my last reply to you, because your claims can all
be refuted with the same answer: All the assumptions you keep making don't
line up with the evidence everyone here is telling you.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:36 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
>> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
>> aren't lazy (lol?).
>>
>
> I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
> I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.
>
> And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
> I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.
>
> As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
> you have some special skill that others do not?
>
> I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before
> quickplay appeared
> on servers that were nearly always full.
>
> How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
> had comp sci phds or something?
>
> No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a
> server.
>
> As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are
> still there. They appear
> right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
> as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
> description which has remained more or less the same for all
> that time.
>
> The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
> "disappeared" you could go and see why.
>
> There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites
> section
> to find them.
>
> Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
> changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as the
> same server in any case.
>
> Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of identifier
> for a servers I think Valve
> would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to me
> that
> a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same server
> that someone added to their
> favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have
> occurred.
>
> If you want to blather on about community, you can't
> in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
> the moment your server changes ip address.
>
> If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your
> server,
> you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about changes
> to the server
> to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
> __**_
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> please visit:
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>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

I do not agree on your assumption. 

Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there, for 
various mods within the game. 
Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't notice a 
server dropping off cos they changed IP. As there are enough other servers to 
play on, I would not need to "find" that server again in the server browser. I 
just go to another favorite server. Why? See pinion story, most non-favorited 
has pinion in a very intrusive way enabled.

So, after years having a server in somwhere in my favorites, with a vague 
familiarity of the server name, ppl won't go looking for a missing server that 
changed IP. 

Now apply above to other players. And add to that that often server owners cant 
move IP to a new box. They lose their player base there.





>
> From: dan 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 4:36
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:
>> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
>> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
>> aren't lazy (lol?).
>
>I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
>I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.
>
>And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
>I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.
>
>As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
>you have some special skill that others do not?
>
>I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before 
>quickplay appeared
>on servers that were nearly always full.
>
>How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
>had comp sci phds or something?
>
>No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a 
>server.
>
>As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are 
>still there. They appear
>right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
>as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
>description which has remained more or less the same for all
>that time.
>
>The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
>"disappeared" you could go and see why.
>
>There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites 
>section
>to find them.
>
>Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
>changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as 
>the same server in any case.
>
>Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of 
>identifier for a servers I think Valve
>would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to 
>me that
>a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same 
>server that someone added to their
>favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have 
>occurred.
>
>If you want to blather on about community, you can't
>in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
>the moment your server changes ip address.
>
>If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your server,
>you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about 
>changes to the server
>to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.
>
>-- 
>Dan
>
>___
>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
>visit:
>https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?).


I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.

And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.

As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
you have some special skill that others do not?

I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before 
quickplay appeared

on servers that were nearly always full.

How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
had comp sci phds or something?

No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a 
server.


As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are 
still there. They appear

right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
description which has remained more or less the same for all
that time.

The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
"disappeared" you could go and see why.

There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites 
section

to find them.

Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as 
the same server in any case.


Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of 
identifier for a servers I think Valve
would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to 
me that
a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same 
server that someone added to their
favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have 
occurred.


If you want to blather on about community, you can't
in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
the moment your server changes ip address.

If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your server,
you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about 
changes to the server

to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

You don't have to ask Valve to get someone's hardware ID. It could be found
via a trojan or by brute force.

It would be trivial for a cheater to start tweaking his mac address (likely
one of the hardware ID components) until Steam tells him that it is
associated with an innocent SteamID or until Steamguard pops up, telling
him that he is safe from hardware ID bans.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Scruppy Dawg  wrote:

> They would never know what your HWID was to begin with. Read the post above
> by Erik-jan Riemers.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
> > pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.
> >
> > Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client
> and
> > thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
> > sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look
> forward
> > to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.
> >
> > DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What
> other
> > > steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even
> > sending
> > > out the hwid to the middle person.
> > > We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> > > banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic,
> but
> > > in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> > > find something new)
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> > > Paulson
> > > Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> > > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can
> > > ban HWID too.
> > >
> > > For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past
> couple
> > > of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like
> > this:
> > >
> > > "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone
> else
> > > cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> > > improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be
> ignored
> > > because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the
> > same
> > > way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> > > server."
> > >
> > > I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all
> > the
> > > "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart
> and
> > > aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> > > people keep requesting DNS.
> > >
> > > If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> > > place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> > > changed.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
> > >
> > > > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you
> two.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > > > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > > > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > > > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Who cares?
> > > > >
> > > > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope
> (and
> > > > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > > > on.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > > > your server went?
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > > > >
> > > > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communica

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

They would never know what your HWID was to begin with. Read the post above
by Erik-jan Riemers.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:

> I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
> pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.
>
> Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client and
> thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
> sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look forward
> to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.
>
> DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers 
> wrote:
>
> > If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> > steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even
> sending
> > out the hwid to the middle person.
> > We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> > banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> > in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> > find something new)
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> > Paulson
> > Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can
> > ban HWID too.
> >
> > For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> > of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like
> this:
> >
> > "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> > cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> > improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> > because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the
> same
> > way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> > server."
> >
> > I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all
> the
> > "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> > aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> > people keep requesting DNS.
> >
> > If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> > place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> > changed.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
> >
> > > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Who cares?
> > > >
> > > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > > on.
> > > >
> > > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > > your server went?
> > > >
> > > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > > >
> > > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > > >
> > > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > > > you
> > > are
> > > > changing
> > > > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > > > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > > > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > > > server without this feature.
> > > >
> > > > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > > > nothing particulary special about that server.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that
> > > > has
> > > any
> > > > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > > > Except stuff like ping and the network connectio

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

This is pretty much the idea I was going for. I'm glad someone finally
figured out what I may of been not so eloquently saying.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
> out the hwid to the middle person.
> We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> find something new)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Paulson
> Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
> For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:
>
> "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
> way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> server."
>
> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> people keep requesting DNS.
>
> If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> changed.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
> > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Who cares?
> > >
> > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > on.
> > >
> > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > your server went?
> > >
> > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > >
> > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > >
> > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > >
> > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > > you
> > are
> > > changing
> > > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > > server without this feature.
> > >
> > > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > > nothing particulary special about that server.
> > >
> > > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that
> > > has
> > any
> > > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether
> > > it's got people on it and whether it's running a map I want to play.
> > > You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you when you
> > > search for a server.
> > >
> > > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them
> > > from
> > the
> > > main server list. The point
> > > is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference
> > > to the game. There are plenty of other servers. OTOH, if a new
> > > server appears, I'm as likely to play on that as any other.
> > >
> > > Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting
> > > ddosed or that is on a crap host with lag spikes doesn't matter
> > > because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's th

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.

Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client and
thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look forward
to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.

DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
> out the hwid to the middle person.
> We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> find something new)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Paulson
> Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
> For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:
>
> "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
> way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> server."
>
> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> people keep requesting DNS.
>
> If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> changed.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
> > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Who cares?
> > >
> > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > on.
> > >
> > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > your server went?
> > >
> > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > >
> > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > >
> > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > >
> > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > > you
> > are
> > > changing
> > > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > > server without this feature.
> > >
> > > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > > nothing particulary special about that server.
> > >
> > > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that
> > > has
> > any
> > > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether
> > > it's got people on it and whether it's running a map I want to play.
> > > You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you when you
> > > search for a server.
> > >
> > > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them
> > > from
> > the
> > > main server list. The point
> > > is, if one server disappears it doesn't m

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Erik-jan Riemers]

If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
out the hwid to the middle person.
We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
find something new)

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Paulson
Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:

"Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
server."

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
people keep requesting DNS.

If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
changed.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
>
> > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> >
> >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> >>
> >
> > Who cares?
> >
> > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > on.
> >
> > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > your server went?
> >
> > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> >
> > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> >
> > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> >
> > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > you
> are
> > changing
> > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > server without this feature.
> >
> > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > nothing particulary special about that server.
> >
> > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that
> > has
> any
> > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether
> > it's got people on it and whether it's running a map I want to play.
> > You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you when you
> > search for a server.
> >
> > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them
> > from
> the
> > main server list. The point
> > is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference
> > to the game. There are plenty of other servers. OTOH, if a new
> > server appears, I'm as likely to play on that as any other.
> >
> > Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting
> > ddosed or that is on a crap host with lag spikes doesn't matter
> > because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the reason you
> > want the feature?
> > Start talking sense.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > archives, please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_lin
> > ux<
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >
> __

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:

"Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any improvements
especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored because it
helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same way I do so
no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve server."

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
people keep requesting DNS.

If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first place
then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP changed.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
>
> > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> >
> >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
> >> matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
> >> affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such
> >> as
> >> Azelphur's Surf server.
> >>
> >
> > Who cares?
> >
> > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
> > have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
> > as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
> > how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude
> > awakening
> > coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another
> > server to play on.
> >
> > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your
> > server went?
> >
> > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
> > plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> >
> > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
> > used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
> > won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you,
> > conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> >
> > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and
> > we'll talk you through the process,
> > But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> >
> > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you
> are
> > changing
> > ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly,
> > again, ask away for ideas.
> > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > server without this feature.
> >
> > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > nothing particulary special about that server.
> >
> > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has
> any
> > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether it's
> > got people on it and whether it's running a map
> > I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you
> > when you search for a server.
> >
> > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from
> the
> > main server list. The point
> > is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to
> > the game. There are plenty of
> > other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on
> > that as any other.
> >
> > Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or
> > that is on a crap host with lag spikes
> > doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the
> > reason you want the feature?
> > Start talking sense.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux<
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Eli Witt]

past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
>> matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
>> affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such
>> as
>> Azelphur's Surf server.
>>
>
> Who cares?
>
> If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
> have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
> as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
> how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude
> awakening
> coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another
> server to play on.
>
> What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your
> server went?
>
> Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
> plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
>
> Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
> used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
> won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you,
> conveniently too stupid to do anything)
>
> So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and
> we'll talk you through the process,
> But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.
>
> If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you are
> changing
> ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly,
> again, ask away for ideas.
> But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> server without this feature.
>
> If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> nothing particulary special about that server.
>
> Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has any
> characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether it's
> got people on it and whether it's running a map
> I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you
> when you search for a server.
>
> So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from the
> main server list. The point
> is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to
> the game. There are plenty of
> other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on
> that as any other.
>
> Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or
> that is on a crap host with lag spikes
> doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the
> reason you want the feature?
> Start talking sense.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:

You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such as
Azelphur's Surf server.


Who cares?

If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude 
awakening
coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another 
server to play on.


What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your 
server went?


Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?

Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you, 
conveniently too stupid to do anything)


So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and 
we'll talk you through the process,

But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.

If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you 
are changing
ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly, 
again, ask away for ideas.
But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken 
server without this feature.


If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was 
nothing particulary special about that server.


Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has 
any characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether 
it's got people on it and whether it's running a map
I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells 
you when you search for a server.


So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from 
the main server list. The point
is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to 
the game. There are plenty of
other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on 
that as any other.


Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or 
that is on a crap host with lag spikes
doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the 
reason you want the feature?

Start talking sense.

--
Dan


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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Are you just here to troll hlds?

You just showed you can't even read. "The idea that someone only joins a
server from the favourites list?...How did they join the server to
add it to the favourites?" Come back to the mailing list after you've
finished your reading lessons.

You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such as
Azelphur's Surf server.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 1:35 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 21:12, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
>> never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers
>>
>> There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
>> their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
>> might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
>> just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
>> thousands of servers too daunting.
>>
>
> I'm sure "most players" are at least as intelligent as you, if not more so.
> I see no evidence to explain why you can find a server and they can't
>
> Feel free to explain your vast intellect, but I'm sure us mere mortals
> will find
> your server if we need to, however much you believe otherwise.
>
> The idea that someone only joins a server from the favourites list?
>
> Now, come on. Think about that Einstein. How did they join the server to
> add it to the favourites? If they did that, they can do it again.
>
>
>  Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
>> far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes
>>
>
> Well, then there's no need for you to switch host or change IP then, is
> there?
>
> Don't join a debating society.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 21:12, Robert Paulson wrote:

Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers

There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
thousands of servers too daunting.


I'm sure "most players" are at least as intelligent as you, if not more so.
I see no evidence to explain why you can find a server and they can't

Feel free to explain your vast intellect, but I'm sure us mere mortals 
will find

your server if we need to, however much you believe otherwise.

The idea that someone only joins a server from the favourites list?

Now, come on. Think about that Einstein. How did they join the server to
add it to the favourites? If they did that, they can do it again.


Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes


Well, then there's no need for you to switch host or change IP then, is 
there?


Don't join a debating society.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers

There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
thousands of servers too daunting.

Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes
as every update adds CPU usage compared to the hassle of seeding a new IP.
This is an empirical fact that I bet operators here can testify to. Our
oldest servers on slow hardware are always the most populated.

Just because you noticed the same servers having the same name since 2007
doesn't mean most of the players didn't have to wait several months for
their favorite servers to get reseeded after an IP change.

There is no way for DNS favorites to"fuck over the player base" that can't
already be done because the favorites list is not monitored by Valve. It is
supposed to be curated by the player and it is very easy to remove a server
from it.

Banning serial cheaters was already solved by DNS or netblock banning.
People making cheats will simply add methods to randomize their HWID and
make it useless.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:21 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
>> request every year it comes up.
>>
>
> Because it's not a problem.
>
> If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the
> browser,
> Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.
>
> I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I played
> on in 2007.
>
> I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it
> doesn't matter
> what their IP address is.
>
> Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
> are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
> yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.
>
> I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a
> crappy host
> simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.
>
> I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would find
> some way to fuck
> over the player base if it were implemented.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> __**_
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 14:31, AnAkIn wrote:

Funny how this has went offtopic.


Well, the topic's more or less answered

1. It seems unlikely hwid is any more permanent than any other 
identifier you can currently ban by.

2. Either way, Valve have seen the feature request.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[AnAkIn]

Funny how this has went offtopic.


2013/8/25 dan 

> On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
>> request every year it comes up.
>>
>
> Because it's not a problem.
>
> If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the
> browser,
> Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.
>
> I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I played
> on in 2007.
>
> I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it
> doesn't matter
> what their IP address is.
>
> Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
> are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
> yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.
>
> I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a
> crappy host
> simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.
>
> I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would find
> some way to fuck
> over the player base if it were implemented.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:

I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
request every year it comes up.


Because it's not a problem.

If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the 
browser,

Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.

I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I 
played on in 2007.


I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it 
doesn't matter

what their IP address is.

Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.

I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a 
crappy host

simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.

I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would 
find some way to fuck

over the player base if it were implemented.

--
Dan



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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Zaretti Steve]

There is some trick, like ip fail-over...
 I've got the same IP since 5 years, and changed hardware/server a
douzen of time...

 This said, with the rise of IPv6... I hope dns will be supported.
 IPv6 seems glitchy for basic user... dns will help.

 But this is my opinion.



2013/8/25 ics :
> Having DNS to favorites is being suggested over past 8 years quite few times
> and only thing even near that is TF2's server registration which will tie
> the server reputation to the steam account, so changing ip does not lose the
> reputation your server has gotten (which in it's own way affects quickplay).
>
> -ics
>
> [#OMEGA] - K2 kirjoitti:
>
>> They should just add a server variable containing the dns which server
>> owners can set.
>> Then if people add the server though favourites and such cvar is set, it
>> automatically gets added with the DNS entry instead of the IP. Plus adding
>> servers manually also stores the DNS entry instead of resolved IP Address.
>>
>> This would be a non intrusive change and should work fine.
>>
>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>> Von: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Erik-jan
>> Riemers
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. August 2013 11:34
>> An: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> Betreff: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
>> ban HWID too.
>>
>> About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
>> case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.
>>
>> Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
>> suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
>> Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
>> "host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
>> all cope with not storing the port too)
>>
>> We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
>> either search on the tag or come random.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
>> Reeuwijk
>> Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
>> ban HWID too.
>>
>> That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
>> like
>>
>> srv1.community.xxx:27015
>> srv1.community.xxx:27020
>> srv2.community.xxx:27015
>> etc
>> instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
>> server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
>> new hardware server won't lose their players.
>>
>> I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
>> that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
>> servers.
>>
>> Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
>> opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
>> groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
>> have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.
>>
>> Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
>> quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
>> problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
>> tab, favorite all they want, and get on.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> 
>>> From: ElitePowered . 
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> 
>>> Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>>
>> can ban HWID too.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can just use subdomains.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
>>
>>
>
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[ics]

Having DNS to favorites is being suggested over past 8 years quite few 
times and only thing even near that is TF2's server registration which 
will tie the server reputation to the steam account, so changing ip does 
not lose the reputation your server has gotten (which in it's own way 
affects quickplay).


-ics

[#OMEGA] - K2 kirjoitti:

They should just add a server variable containing the dns which server
owners can set.
Then if people add the server though favourites and such cvar is set, it
automatically gets added with the DNS entry instead of the IP. Plus adding
servers manually also stores the DNS entry instead of resolved IP Address.

This would be a non intrusive change and should work fine.

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Erik-jan
Riemers
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. August 2013 11:34
An: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.

Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
"host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
all cope with not storing the port too)

We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
either search on the tag or come random.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
Reeuwijk
Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
new hardware server won't lose their players.

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
servers.

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
tab, favorite all they want, and get on.






From: ElitePowered . 
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list

Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops

can ban HWID too.


You can just use subdomains.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 





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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[[#OMEGA] - K2]

They should just add a server variable containing the dns which server
owners can set. 
Then if people add the server though favourites and such cvar is set, it
automatically gets added with the DNS entry instead of the IP. Plus adding
servers manually also stores the DNS entry instead of resolved IP Address.

This would be a non intrusive change and should work fine.

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Erik-jan
Riemers
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. August 2013 11:34
An: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.

Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
"host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
all cope with not storing the port too)

We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
either search on the tag or come random.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
Reeuwijk
Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
new hardware server won't lose their players.

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
servers.

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
tab, favorite all they want, and get on.




>
> From: ElitePowered . 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>
>Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
can ban HWID too.
>
>
>You can just use subdomains.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
wrote:
>
>> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>
>>
>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>
>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made
>> > it so players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads.
>> > Since they require 100% completion there's almost no chance of
>> > getting paid from quickplay players.
>> >
>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
>> > servers by domain name.
>> >
>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
>> > toilet because changing IPs would kill off your population? How
>> > many of you need DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a
>> > new IP would result in more player loss than a DDoS?
>> >
>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
>> > would be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what
>> > Valve
>> should
>> > be working on next.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
>> > > > >wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
>> > > instead
>> > of
>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker
>> > > or w/e changes it, it should not have a big impact on
>> > > tracability, multiple
>> > HWID's
>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>> customize
>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting
>> > > driver versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use
>> > > for
>> > generating a
>> > > HWID.
>> > >
>> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
>> benefit
>> > > from.
>> > >
>> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages
>> > > for
>> Valve
>> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI.
>> > > (apart from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I
>> > > rather see the pinion crap end.)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >__

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Erik-jan Riemers]

About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.

Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
"host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
all cope with not storing the port too)

We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
either search on the tag or come random.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
Reeuwijk
Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
new hardware server won't lose their players.

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
servers.

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
tab, favorite all they want, and get on.




>
> From: ElitePowered . 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>
>Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
can ban HWID too.
>
>
>You can just use subdomains.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
wrote:
>
>> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>
>>
>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>
>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made
>> > it so players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads.
>> > Since they require 100% completion there's almost no chance of
>> > getting paid from quickplay players.
>> >
>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
>> > servers by domain name.
>> >
>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
>> > toilet because changing IPs would kill off your population? How
>> > many of you need DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a
>> > new IP would result in more player loss than a DDoS?
>> >
>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
>> > would be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what
>> > Valve
>> should
>> > be working on next.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
>> > > > >wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
>> > > instead
>> > of
>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker
>> > > or w/e changes it, it should not have a big impact on
>> > > tracability, multiple
>> > HWID's
>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>> customize
>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting
>> > > driver versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use
>> > > for
>> > generating a
>> > > HWID.
>> > >
>> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
>> benefit
>> > > from.
>> > >
>> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages
>> > > for
>> Valve
>> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI.
>> > > (apart from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I
>> > > rather see the pinion crap end.)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
>> > > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>> server
>> > > mailing list 
>> > > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
>> > > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that
>> > > >server ops
>> > > can ban HWID too.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they
>> > > >could make
>> > > that
>> > > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing
it.
>> They
>> > > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication
>> > > >when you
>> > join
>> > > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
>> > > >
>> > > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want